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Colombian Aviation #14  
User currently offlineRCS763AV From Colombia, joined Jun 2004, 4373 posts, RR: 12
Posted (9 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 9947 times:

Hello everyone! Here's to a new discussion on all things colombian aviation, hot topics in the agenda are:

Months after the bilateral with the Netherlands was revised, AFKL have publicly announced that they could bring KLM to increase capacity in the BOG market, but that operating the 777 has it's challenges due to BOG's altitude, and they are evaluating them (they also want to operate the 777 on the CDG route):

http://www.portafolio.co/negocios/klm-busca-pista-colombia

The domestic market continues growing and Viva keep increasing their marketshare, while LAN and Avianca also see steep rises in their pax numbers, exponential growth in MDE and CTG due to Viva's and Avianca's expansion and fare wars, while CM continue their retreat:

http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...s-occur-in-the-market-place-118596

LAN is upping frequency on some domestic routes and launching MDE-ADZ and CLO-ADZ:

http://www.portafolio.co/negocios/lan-aumenta-frecuencias-colombia

Avianca has launched CUN and SJU service this week from BOG, and has been upping domestic frequencies throughout the year. The new ATR-72 is already in BOG.

Interjet has entered the BOG-MEX market as a new player, yet their discounts are nothing impressive. The Colombia-Mexico market has kept booming since the lift on visas.

AA is launching DFW-BOG by year's end.

Given that thread 13 only got 86 replies and was locked, let's start fresh out here with more enthusiasm!

93 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9559 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (9 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 9774 times:

Seems that the interest in the Colombian aviation has completely vanished, very sad. I enjoy participating in these threads too. As per the thread started the Colombian market is still growing with local airlines expanding and a select few downgrading their presence.

I must say that the new AV colors are growing on me even though I haven't seen it in real life yet. The Avianca Cargo A330 looks amazing I must say:



View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Santiago Escobar - Colombia AeroImages




I'm looking forward in seeing the new AV livery in CUR soon!!! And, come on guys, let's keeps these threads alive!!! 

A388


User currently offlinewingedtaurus From Mexico, joined Mar 2007, 117 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (9 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 9750 times:

How many flights BOG-MEX 6? 1AM, 3AV, 1CM and 1 4O? I

User currently offlineRCS763AV From Colombia, joined Jun 2004, 4373 posts, RR: 12
Reply 3, posted (9 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 9719 times:

Quoting wingedtaurus (Reply 2):
How many flights BOG-MEX 6? 1AM, 3AV, 1CM and 1 4O? I

Seven.

3 AV.
2 AM. (it's actually 11x weekly during low season).
1 CM*.
1 4O.

BOG-MEX is the busiest route linking Mexico and South America.

Quoting A388 (Reply 1):
I must say that the new AV colors are growing on me even though I haven't seen it in real life yet. The Avianca Cargo A330 looks amazing I must say:

Saw them in person the other day. They're VERY bland, but not distasteful.


User currently offlineSJOtoLIR From Costa Rica, joined Jul 2007, 4338 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (9 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 9644 times:

Quoting RCS763AV (Thread starter):

AA is launching DFW-BOG by year's end.

AA DFW-BOG 7x weekly with 319 is due to start on November 21st.



"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
User currently offlineSumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2520 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (8 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 9394 times:

Quoting RCS763AV (Thread starter):
Months after the bilateral with the Netherlands was revised, AFKL have publicly announced that they could bring KLM to increase capacity in the BOG market, but that operating the 777 has it's challenges due to BOG's altitude, and they are evaluating them (they also want to operate the 777 on the CDG route):

http://www.portafolio.co/negocios/kl...ombia

AF-KL have expanded in many markets in Latin America. The case of Panama is particularly interesting, which has grown to a daily operation, some in high capacity 77Ws, and Air France starting operations from CDG in November.
Just as it happened with LIM. Conversely, KL now flies to EZE and GIG, formerly only served by AF.
Ecuador has also seen changes from a shared service via BON, to a dedicated operation that has also seen frequency improvements and larger capacity.

I have no doubt that there will be changes in the Colombian operation.
One interesting possibility mentioned by the group's representatives is the use of a new Colombian destination to bypass BOG's altitude challenges. Although it is only one of the options, it would be very interesting to see KLM serve industrial Cali -also a significant destination for Colombians living in Europe- or Touristic Cartagena.
Medellin would not offer much of an advantage vs BOG regarding altitude.

Some additional news on routes:
AV CLO-MDE goes from 3 to 4 weekly in the low season. It stays daily in the peak seasons.
LIM-CLO and LIM-MDE will increase frequencies as of 15th November. 4 to 6 weekly, and 3 to daily respectively.
SAL-MDE has increased to daily after the suspension of the SJO-PTY-MDE. SAL-CLO has increased to 5 weekly and it looks set to go daily in September.


User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9559 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (8 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 9361 times:

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 5):
I have no doubt that there will be changes in the Colombian operation.
One interesting possibility mentioned by the group's representatives is the use of a new Colombian destination to bypass BOG's altitude challenges. Although it is only one of the options, it would be very interesting to see KLM serve industrial Cali -also a significant destination for Colombians living in Europe- or Touristic Cartagena.
Medellin would not offer much of an advantage vs BOG regarding altitude.

While I also find this interesting, I don't see how KL can make more money on any destination in Colombia outside of BOG. BOG clearly is the city in Colombia that attracts the European airlines, so that is where KL should go. Their only problem is that they have twin engined widebody aircraft that may be less optimal for high altitude airports but if they really see a market there, why not do it even with taking penalties into account? KL can even combine BOG with CUR and refuel in CUR so they can take-off at full payload from BOG. That might be a solution for them. Again they need to do an indepth analysis on what options are available to them but knowing KL they will know what to do.

A388


User currently offlineRCS763AV From Colombia, joined Jun 2004, 4373 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (8 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 9333 times:

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 5):
AV CLO-MDE goes from 3 to 4 weekly in the low season. It stays daily in the peak seasons.

You mean CLO-MDE-JFK I guess.

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 5):
LIM-CLO and LIM-MDE will increase frequencies as of 15th November. 4 to 6 weekly, and 3 to daily respectively.

Good to see the directs to Lima are doing well.

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 5):
One interesting possibility mentioned by the group's representatives is the use of a new Colombian destination to bypass BOG's altitude challenges. Although it is only one of the options, it would be very interesting to see KLM serve industrial Cali

I would also guess that in case KL wanted to fly to another colombian destination it would be CLO. First of all, the Cali-Europe market is probably the second largest in Colombia-Europe, after that I would venture to guess it would be Pereira (very high VFR numbers mainly from Spain) and Cartagena (tourism). Medellín would come after, but as you said it doesn't really offer much advantages as compared to BOG in altitude, and the market size would pode a challenge for KL. The CTG market I would guess is still developing and we'll first see the charter airlines come en masse and maybe then more scheduled carriers, just as it happened in CUN and PUJ.

I would still think that the primary target would be BOG. After all they are still evaluating the 777's operation, which means it's not entirely ruled out.


User currently offlineSumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2520 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (8 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 9282 times:

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 7):
You mean CLO-MDE-JFK I guess.

You are correct. CLO-MDE-JfK is increasing to 4 weekly frequencies in the low season. MDE-CLO has up to 8 daily frequencies.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 7):
Good to see the directs to Lima are doing well.

Indeed, with LIM being a great connecting point for points beyond.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 7):
I would also guess that in case KL wanted to fly to another colombian destination it would be CLO. First of all, the Cali-Europe market is probably the second largest in Colombia-Europe

CLO is certainly a good candidate. Only minus point would be lack of flower production. This would be an important factor for a flight to AMS.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 7):
after that I would venture to guess it would be Pereira (very high VFR numbers mainly from Spain

Sure. But we know it is not technically possible, so it won't happen. If it were possible, Avianca would already be doing PEI-MAD.

Quoting A388 (Reply 6):
heir only problem is that they have twin engined widebody aircraft that may be less optimal for high altitude airports but if they really see a market there, why not do it even with taking penalties into account?

I am sure they are looking at the viability. Only problem is that if it means no cargo can be taken non-stop, then it may not be worth doing the flight. The CUR stop that you suggest is a possibility. It could also be a triangular with another colombian city: CLO or CTG.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 7):
Medellín would come after, but as you said it doesn't really offer much advantages as compared to BOG in altitude, and the market size would pode a challenge for KL.

At 2150m above sea level, only 400m less elevated than BOG, it would indeed seem unlikely that it would make enough of a difference. On the plus side, it does have a local flower industry that would be a source of cargo.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 7):
I would still think that the primary target would be BOG. After all they are still evaluating the 777's operation, which means it's not entirely ruled out.

The 772 operation was announced as a given a few months ago. The strange thing is that it has not happened.

Quoting A388 (Reply 6):
I don't see how KL can make more money on any destination in Colombia outside of BOG.

KLM manages to serve both GYE and UIO in Ecuador. This was a necessity given that old UIO did not allow to operate a heavy widebody out, and so the GYE stop had to happen.
However, now that UIO permits transatlantic flights without an intermediate stop, do you think that they will forsake GYE?
I think not. In fact, I believe that the 2 cities will get dedicated service at some point.

Colombia is multi polar and so an advantage of an airline like KLM serving a city other than BOG -already served by its sister- would be to get in there before others do.
I have no doubt that Iberia will seek to serve more cities in Colombia once it gets its restructuring sorted.


User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9559 posts, RR: 11
Reply 9, posted (8 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 9262 times:

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 8):
Quoting A388 (Reply 6):
heir only problem is that they have twin engined widebody aircraft that may be less optimal for high altitude airports but if they really see a market there, why not do it even with taking penalties into account?

I am sure they are looking at the viability. Only problem is that if it means no cargo can be taken non-stop, then it may not be worth doing the flight. The CUR stop that you suggest is a possibility. It could also be a triangular with another colombian city: CLO or CTG.

I totally agree with you. Cargo will definately be a factor and in that case BOG is the go-to destination.

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 8):
Quoting A388 (Reply 6):
I don't see how KL can make more money on any destination in Colombia outside of BOG.

KLM manages to serve both GYE and UIO in Ecuador. This was a necessity given that old UIO did not allow to operate a heavy widebody out, and so the GYE stop had to happen.
However, now that UIO permits transatlantic flights without an intermediate stop, do you think that they will forsake GYE?

It still isn't clear to me whether the new UIO airport will indeed result in aircraft being able to take off at full payload because I understood that a longer runway doesn't equal the necessary payload increase as the high altitude also limits the wheel speed and the breaking energy limit itself from the runway at a higher altitude. You can't go faster than the wheel speed limit even if there is a longer runway. So it is a matter of calculating what can be done at UIO and GYE (also in one engine-out situations) and whether it is wise to operate them seperately. I heard GYE is mainly used for cargo purposes (shrimps) so these two destinations might even need each other to exist.

A388


User currently offlineSumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2520 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (8 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 9199 times:

Quoting A388 (Reply 9):
It still isn't clear to me whether the new UIO airport will indeed result in aircraft being able to take off at full payload

Looking at the new UIO runway specification, it is certainly long, but it is also at a lower elevation than BOG.

I expect that A340s will have no problems operating out of UIO on non-stops to Europe. LH at BOG has said that a longer runway would make a positive difference. I believe that this is more to do with tail wind and rain conditions and enough stopping distance should an aborted take off take place.
Not idea how 777s would do at UIO, though. Perhaps the situation will still be challenging.
KL is going daily on AMS-UIO-GYE-AMS for the next season. Interestingly, 3 different flight codes are used, even though the times are the same. Might KL have plans to re-organise these flights? Either dedicated service to each city or a different arrangement? We'll have to wait and see.


User currently offlineRCS763AV From Colombia, joined Jun 2004, 4373 posts, RR: 12
Reply 11, posted (8 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 9016 times:

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 8):
At 2150m above sea level, only 400m less elevated than BOG, it would indeed seem unlikely that it would make enough of a difference. On the plus side, it does have a local flower industry that would be a source of cargo.

Yea. But then BOG has a much larger flower industry, so why not just fly to BOG where you know the passenger market is large enough to accommodate you, whilst MDE would be a much larger risk.

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 8):
The 772 operation was announced as a given a few months ago. The strange thing is that it has not happened.

It was said that they were going to bring a aircraft "with 25 more seats", which would be the three class 772, but nothing is certain.

Certainly cities like Cali, Medellín, Cartagena and Barranquilla have the potential to sustain more flights to Europe, but I personally think that outside the iberian peninsula it will be hard to see something (except for CTG). I mean, ther'es plenty of cities in Brazil and Mexico with limited links to Europe and much larger markets that aren't served by AFKL or even IB. (CNF, POA, BSB, REC, MTY, GDL)


User currently offlinesumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2520 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (8 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 8812 times:

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 11):
Yea. But then BOG has a much larger flower industry, so why not just fly to BOG where you know the passenger market is large enough to accommodate you, whilst MDE would be a much larger risk

Look, I never suggested that KL would fly to MDE!
Indeed, I mentioned other cities that might be considered, as it was confirmed by the AF-KLM general manager in Colombia than flying to other cities in the country is one of the options!
I simply pointed out one factor that MDE would have vs CLO! (Not BOG, note!).
I am sure that MDE produces enough flowers to put on the belly of a passenger jet. Indeed, it produces enough to fill cargo only planes day after day. I happen to think that IB would be more suitable for that route, as well as others in the country at a later stage.


ROUTE NEWS:
AA is making its MIA-MDE double daily permanently as from 19th December.
The route is currently operating twice daily for the peak summer season only.


User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5900 posts, RR: 40
Reply 13, posted (8 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 8787 times:

Quoting RCS763AV (Thread starter):
LAN is upping frequency on some domestic routes and launching MDE-ADZ and CLO-ADZ:


it is more than time that LAN adds new route. hope to see soon new international destinations.



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineSJOtoLIR From Costa Rica, joined Jul 2007, 4338 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (8 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 8592 times:

Quoting A388 (Reply 6):
I don't see how KL can make more money on any destination in Colombia outside of BOG.

I'm not totally convinced if any KL AMS-BOG might work fully loaded, regarding the current operation given by AF CDG-BOG 7x weekly with 343.
As far as I know, the 343 is suitable to operate into the "extreme altitude" at BOG. However, KL doesn't manage the proper plane, in order to exploit the longer route named AMS-BOG.

Regards.



"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9559 posts, RR: 11
Reply 15, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 8487 times:

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 14):
I'm not totally convinced if any KL AMS-BOG might work fully loaded, regarding the current operation given by AF CDG-BOG 7x weekly with 343.
As far as I know, the 343 is suitable to operate into the "extreme altitude" at BOG. However, KL doesn't manage the proper plane, in order to exploit the longer route named AMS-BOG.

Regards.

Yes, in this case KL doesn't have an aircraft with the correct performance but maybe they want to operate the route while stopping elsewhere to refuel (such as CUR). Otherwise they will have to take a hit (penalize) on the route. Even so as I said, KL knows what's best for them to do so I have no doubt in them. If the route doesn't perform as expected they will stop it.

A388


User currently offlineRCS763AV From Colombia, joined Jun 2004, 4373 posts, RR: 12
Reply 16, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 8445 times:

Quoting summa767 (Reply 12):
Look, I never suggested that KL would fly to MDE!
Indeed, I mentioned other cities that might be considered, as it was confirmed by the AF-KLM general manager in Colombia than flying to other cities in the country is one of the options!
I simply pointed out one factor that MDE would have vs CLO! (Not BOG, note!).

I'm simply having a discussion, no need to loose one's temper here. As you point out advantages of MDE, I point out why the possibility of operating to another city that isn't BOG is bleak for KL, and if it were to happen, CLO would probably get chosen due to a considerably larger passenger market size and less altitude issues than MDE.

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 14):
I'm not totally convinced if any KL AMS-BOG might work fully loaded, regarding the current operation given by AF CDG-BOG 7x weekly with 343.
As far as I know, the 343 is suitable to operate into the "extreme altitude" at BOG. However, KL doesn't manage the proper plane, in order to exploit the longer route named AMS-BOG.

They're still evaluating how the 777 will perform, and before AF starts sending theirs to BOG, not one will have concrete data. Yes, the 777 faces challenges at high altitude airports, that is all we know. But it really isn't time to jump into conclusions.

Quoting A388 (Reply 15):
Yes, in this case KL doesn't have an aircraft with the correct performance but maybe they want to operate the route while stopping elsewhere to refuel (such as CUR).

IMO, that would render the route uncompetitive given the various other non-stop options.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 12):
AA is making its MIA-MDE double daily permanently as from 19th December.
The route is currently operating twice daily for the peak summer season only.

The effects of competition and lower fares thanks to open skies. Now let's wait for the launch of BAQ and CTG.

AA's operation in Colombia will be as follows for the winter 2014 season:

BOG-MIA 1x 763 2x 757
MDE-MIA 2x 738
CLO-MIA 1x 738
BOG-DFW 1x 319

[Edited 2013-07-30 08:38:01]

User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9559 posts, RR: 11
Reply 17, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 8437 times:

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 16):
Quoting A388 (Reply 15):
Yes, in this case KL doesn't have an aircraft with the correct performance but maybe they want to operate the route while stopping elsewhere to refuel (such as CUR).

IMO, that would render the route uncompetitive given the various other non-stop options.

I know and I can agree with you but KL does the same on their UIO/GYE route and it seems to work. If CUR can be combined with BOG it gives KL the best possibility because they already serve CUR and the distance between BOG and CUR is do-able. It doesn't make the flight that much more uncomfortable. It will be something similar to their UIO operation that is combined with GYE which is also a city that is relatively close by and it works and still they compete with IB and LAN to Europe.

A388


User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9559 posts, RR: 11
Reply 18, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 8418 times:

KLM can even use a 747-400 Full Pax or Combi for a AMS-CUR-BOG-AMS routing. This will probably solve their twin engine restriction and give them more cargo space to AMS too. Combine it with CUR on one of the legs and you will have a decently packed aircraft!!!

A388


User currently offlinesumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2520 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 8379 times:

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 16):
I point out why the possibility of operating to another city that isn't BOG is bleak for KL, and if it were to happen, CLO would probably get chosen due to a considerably larger passenger market size and less altitude issues than MDE.

There is no argument. I was the first one to suggest CLO as an alternative to BOG, pointing out that MDE has similar altitude to BOG.
In my original post, I said: Although it is only one of the options, it would be very interesting to see KLM serve industrial Cali -also a significant destination for Colombians living in Europe- or Touristic Cartagena.
Medellin would not offer much of an advantage vs BOG regarding altitude.


Quoting A388 (Reply 18):
KLM can even use a 747-400 Full Pax or Combi for a AMS-CUR-BOG-AMS routing. This will probably solve their twin engine restriction and give them more cargo space to AMS too

The interesting thing is that on a longer route such as is AMS-MEX, KL operates a 744 Combi non-stop. MEX is also a high airport -standing ar 2421m, only 127m less than BOG.


User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9559 posts, RR: 11
Reply 20, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 8354 times:

Quoting summa767 (Reply 19):
The interesting thing is that on a longer route such as is AMS-MEX, KL operates a 744 Combi non-stop. MEX is also a high airport -standing ar 2421m, only 127m less than BOG.

Good observation yes but I think a 744 can also work for a BOG routing. I mean, why wouldn't it? If a A340-300 can do it, I'm sure a 747-400 (Pax and Combi) will as well. KL's 747-400 full pax has too much seats (425 pax) but a Combi may actually work, especially seeing the cargo potential from BOG (flowers etc).

A388


User currently offlineRCS763AV From Colombia, joined Jun 2004, 4373 posts, RR: 12
Reply 21, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 8320 times:

Quoting A388 (Reply 17):
I know and I can agree with you but KL does the same on their UIO/GYE route and it seems to work.
Quoting A388 (Reply 17):
It will be something similar to their UIO operation that is combined with GYE which is also a city that is relatively close by and it works and still they compete with IB and LAN to Europe.

The Ecuador-Europe market is different:

1. Most of the market is O/D form Ecuador to Spain
2. The rest of the it, which we can say is taken care of by KL, doesn't really have any other reasonible connecting options to Asia/Africa other than that flight
3. Every Ecuador-Europe flight operates in a XXX-UIO-GYE-XXX routing, thus not having any non-stop options from UIO makes it a different situation to BOG, where they don't have to compete with all of the other airlines who fly non-stop to Europe.
4. As the market evolved, KL removed the CUR and BON stops on their LIM and Ecuador flights, to make them more competitive against the increasing not-stop operations from other competitors. Why would they launch BOG with this pattern if it stopped working in the past?
5. An AMS-BOG-CUR-AMS routing would still require people to add a couple of hours to their travel time and have to go through the whole landing and takeoff process one more time. It is uncomfortable and inefficiant and thus would probably capture low-yielding pax and connections to Asia (which would be one of the main markets for this flight) would still prefer taking AF and LH.

Let's see what AF-KL come up with regarding the 777 into BOG, because I really think a stop in the Dutch Antilles is not the way to go.

Then again, everything can be seen.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 19):
There is no argument.

Allright then so all the more reason not to loose our tempers!


User currently offlineLH506 From Ecuador, joined May 2007, 461 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 8262 times:

any chances of LH changing to 744 or 748? Or maybe even adding a 3-4 weekly to MUC?


NOT FLOWN: 707 717 736/9 764 77L 787 300B2 300B4 345 RJ70/146-100 F27 ATR72 CRJ1/4/10 E120/135/40/95 Q1/2/3 M87
User currently offlineSJOtoLIR From Costa Rica, joined Jul 2007, 4338 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 8227 times:

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 16):
the possibility of operating to another city that isn't BOG is bleak for KL, and if it were to happen, CLO would probably get chosen due to a considerably larger passenger market size and less altitude issues than MDE.

In my perspective from abroad, both CLO and MDE might only operate non-stop services to Madrid, based on their commercial and cultural ties.
AV is already doing this task and their services heading to Europe don't operate on a daily basis yet. I don't visualize space to other European carrier for the time being.




.

Quoting A388 (Reply 18):
KLM can even use a 747-400 Full Pax or Combi for a AMS-CUR-BOG-AMS routing

Any KL AMS-CUR-BOG-AMS probably would never happen as pointing out above. This flight is not competitive analyzing the dedicated current non-stops to Europe out of Bogota: IB BOG-MAD, AV BOG-MAD, LH FRA-BOG and AF BOG-CDG.

Regards.



"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
User currently offlineRCS763AV From Colombia, joined Jun 2004, 4373 posts, RR: 12
Reply 24, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 8212 times:

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 23):
Any KL AMS-CUR-BOG-AMS probably would never happen as pointing out above. This flight is not competitive analyzing the dedicated current non-stops to Europe out of Bogota: IB BOG-MAD, AV BOG-MAD, LH FRA-BOG and AF BOG-CDG.

Plus AV's BOG-BCN.

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 23):
In my perspective from abroad, both CLO and MDE might only operate non-stop services to Madrid, based on their commercial and cultural ties.
AV is already doing this task and their services heading to Europe don't operate on a daily basis yet. I don't visualize space to other European carrier for the time being.

I agree.

On other news, AV's brand new ATR 72-600 is already flying and is doing runs to EJA, AXM, PPN and NVA. As deliveries continue, it will be gradually introduced to other regional destinations. Ops to MZL will have minimal restrictions as per what has been said in other forums.

And LAN is apparently launching PEI-CLO flights in order to feed AA in CLO as said by Hernán Pasman. This has to be one of the most terrible commercial decisions they've made in a long time (they have taken the right track for a while). Cali is 3 hours away by car from Pereira, meaning the only demand this flight will have is low-yielding connecting pax from MIA. (being in PEI 45 minutes before, 30 minute flight time, arriving in CLO, taking your bags, 30 minute drive to the city equals 2.15-2.30 hours travel time, at probably much higher cost).

[Edited 2013-07-30 17:44:23]

25 A388 : You guys have some good points. Let's wait what will happen. A388
26 summa767 : What you have to consider is that the traffic that AV handles to CLO and MDE is essentially is O&D. It can only keep the number of frequencies be
27 SJOtoLIR : Wait. You said before that the existence of AV CLO-MAD 2x weekly and AV MDE-MAD 5x weekly is purely justified on the O&D traffic and I fully agre
28 RCS763AV : Wait a second. MDE and CLO have substantial feed. MDE gets connections from the caribbean cities, and CLO gets feed from GYE (which is large, i've re
29 summa767 : Not when you compare it to BOG. The difference is huge! It doesn't work both ways. MAD flight gets to MDE at 8.15 pm, when the there are *no* more fl
30 Bogota : LAN Colombia and AA will begin codesharing as of 1st of August. Out to the USA LAN Colombia codeshares will include MIA, TPA, ATL, BOS, JFK, LAX and S
31 Post contains links SCL767 : Here is the PR: LAN Colombia y American Airlines aumentan su conectividad internacional
32 RCS763AV : Of course, but there is feed, and it's a substantial part of the pax going on the flights, and a lot of it is actually coming from BOG. At once, the
33 planeguy : Any possibility of Vivacolombia launching flights to the US? Your thoughts.
34 Bogota : It was normal during my BA times to have many BOG originating pax to decide to stay in hotel accomodation, many would rather take a hotel room as the
35 SJOtoLIR : Based on this philosophy, both Brazil and Colombia are operating other secondary airports promoting transcontinental flights to Europe unlike Argenti
36 Post contains links summa767 : Do you think that BOG provides more feed for the CLO-MAD flights and the MDE-MAD flights than CLO and MDE provide to BOG originating flights to MAD?
37 Bogota : Interesting commentary from somebody that can only give an opinion if it critizices something in Bogota, especially if you can bring in a political o
38 summa767 : I am so sorry to touch your very raw nerves. Well, whether you like it or not, regional development is starting to gather pace in Colombia. More air
39 bogota : What a sad answer, as always insulting on your behalf. Says a lot about you. Colombia has always, since its beginnings, been a very well developed co
40 summa767 : It's a very simplistic way of putting it, naturally. Colombia is developing, but despite itself (a book by David Bushnell - I guess you have not even
41 bogota : As usual you guessed wrong. What ever the reason, it is a fact. You can call it the Central Government, but it is the National Government. Composedly
42 summa767 : It's a fact that I stated. Please read properly. See reply 29. And? My criticism is of the bad policies. It is clear that corruption and ill manageme
43 RCS763AV : I think there is a big chance for FLL flights in the medium term. But the truth is Viva still has a long road ahead concerning their domestic growth
44 SJOtoLIR : The commercial flights between Cartagena de Indias and Europe are of course oriented to the leisure traffic and I would firstly think on charter serv
45 RCS763AV : There was no demise. The flights didn't even start because UX decided to apply for authorization to the Aerocivil very late, so when the proposed dat
46 bjorn14 : Let me get this straight....it costs 66% more to board a int'l flight in those cities than BOG?
47 RCS763AV : Oh definitely. Of course, AV said it themselves some time ago. The low-yielding, BOG-bound passengers are given the option of those flights all the t
48 summa767 : It's actually 155%!! It sounds crazy, and it is! Just an example of the "development" policies of successive governments in Colombia. Lip service onl
49 Post contains links trent772 : In other news, two A320's bumped into each other while taxiing into a parking stand, nothing big really but it made the news. The planes involved were
50 A388 : Guys, Avianca owns AeroGal right? When will the first A319 be repainted in the new Avianca colors? Cheers, A388
51 SJOtoLIR : AM MEX-MDE did operate this segment for a while in 2009 as thrice a week. Regards.
52 trent772 : I think he was refering to VivaColombia's first int'l flight.
53 Post contains links clo1973 : I'm attaching a link with renders of how will the new Terminal at CLO will look https://www.facebook.com/#!/media/set/?set=a.508088829257840.107374182
54 SJOtoLIR : I would elaborate my answer better. The AM MEX-MDE 3x weekly service that operated back in 2009 was posted simply as a reference, in order to demonst
55 RCS763AV : You forgot to mention the domestic routes Viva aplied for. They're mostly all trunk routes ex-BOG, to BAQ, SMR, PEI and BGA. Some others are high tra
56 Post contains links and images Summa767 : I am not sure where you get "unlimited" from. The market is always going to be finite, but as Viva has proved, certain routes where the like of you a
57 Post contains links SCL767 : On August 21, LAN Colombia will operate the first commercial flight using biofuels in Colombia. The special flight will be on the A-320 deployed on th
58 A388 : Nice achievement. Is this the first biofuel flight in South America? In any case, congratulations to LAN on doing this. Hopefully others in South Ame
59 SCL767 : LAN operated the first commercial flight in South America using biofuels during March 2012 on the SCL-CCP route.
60 A388 : Awesome, thanks. A388
61 clo1973 : Currently there are 5 Jetways in each concourse (Nat´l and Int´l). The new Terminal will have 6 jetways, and the current building with its two conc
62 standby87 : Slight thread drift: I flew with family through the New BOG International Terminal recently. Very smooth and impressive experience: friendly spacious
63 scorp82 : I have heard about TK's plans to launch BOG through other postings in this forum and other online sources. I believe TK announced plans to fly to BOG
64 A388 : Interesting routing, let's see if this route will materialize. On another note, does anyone when the AV A319 will be repainted in the new livery? I k
65 RICARIZA : Quick question: I am planning a trip mid November (Nov 15th) to BOG. I went to AA's website and it gave me the option of a flight "operated by LAN Col
66 scorp82 : I would assume that even if you book a LAN Colombia flight through the AA website, and if you provide them with your AAdvantage account number, any m
67 a300aa : Yes, but you should have an aadvantage number in your lan reservation, also lancolombia will become a oneworld affiliate o november.
68 Post contains links RCS763AV : I never argued that those routes could only be served by turboprops. Though I still sustain that Avianca's 8 daily A318/20 operation on the CTG route
69 SJOtoLIR : AV GUA-PTY, AV GUA-MIA and AV GUA-JFK is closer via SAL than BOG.
70 RCS763AV : Yes, and those BOG-XXX flights cater mainly to the local demand from Bogotá and Colombia to those destinations, but there's now an extra option. Peo
71 Post contains links RCS763AV : LAN Colombia to join oneworld october 1st:
72 Post contains links RCS763AV : LAN Colombia to join oneworld october 1st: http://www.lan.com/es_co/sitio_perso...artir-del-cuarto-trimestre-de-2013 Avianca returns to the colombian
73 SJOtoLIR : Copa Airlines Colombia has attended the BOG-LET sector letely and it follows a similar schedule allocation. I didn't understand the lack of AV BOG-LE
74 Post contains links MATURRO727 : Hey all Interesting article and interview with AV's pilot union representative talking about the "Zero supplementary work" operation that is now in ef
75 trent772 : Hey buddy, In these tough times, and the even tougher ones that are coming our way please refrain from using sites like these to express your toughts
76 Summa767 : The dispute is now in the open. Let's see how it develops. In the interview, the pilot's representative says that AV pilots have been feeling dejecte
77 MATURRO727 : i will thanks. MATURRO727
78 Post contains links SCL767 : LAN Colombia will launch BOG-AUA starting on 01DEC: http://www.lan.com/es_cl/sitio_perso...va-ruta-internacional-bogota-aruba
79 RCS763AV : God what a horrible shcedule, not to mention 0 connections at either end. This will purely cater to O/D tourism. It shows the scarcity of slots in BOG
80 A388 : I couldn't agree with you on this any better way. I mean, arrival time in Aruba of 01:40AM and departing at 02:30AM? What was LAN thinking with those
81 Bogota : Terrible shchedule yes, connects perfectly with the GRU flight.
82 RCS763AV : It's good coming from GRU (a 1 hour 5 minute wait) but on the way back there's a 7 hour wait at a horrible time of the day. Not really a perfect conn
83 A388 : Aren't there any other routes that connect with this LAN AUA flight? It seems odd that they fly on such times only to have a partially good connectio
84 Summa767 : It's not 8 daily. Av had up to 7 daily A318, but when A320s replaced most of the A318s, the frequency was reduced to 5 daily, plus up to 2 by Viva. I
85 soamsky : It is estrange nobody has reported Avianca's pilots protest that has led to canceling so many flights. I even heard there was a flight whose crew walk
86 MATURRO727 : Well there’s not too much to talk about actually as management and pilot unions haven't come to an agreement just yet and they keep negotiating jus
87 trent772 : I don't get it, if this being something you just "heard", and also claim to know nothing about, how could you so quickly dismiss the crew as unprofes
88 Post contains images MATURRO727 :
89 Post contains links Summa767 : No need to be so defensive, on a.netter who mentions a story that has been widely reported. Here is a link: http://www.vanguardia.com/actualidad...n-
90 trent772 : Thanks, but don't need either the link nor the transaltion, I know exactly what happened all too well. Would you rather had the pilots flown the plan
91 Summa767 : The link was not to inform you but to illustrate a story that has been widely reported in the media, about passengers who boarded a flight BOG-CTG, a
92 RICARIZA : Any news on the emergency landing of an A330 in Viru Viru due to a gas leak on the right engine?
93 soamsky : As Summa pointed out, the incident was reported in several news outlets. I get Maturro's explanation; however, I've been in situations when once on t
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