Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 10  
User currently offlinemoderators From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 513 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 32988 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Hello All,

Part 9 has become extremely long so we are creating Part 10 in order to make it easier to find new information.

Part 9 can be found here OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 9 (by moderators Jul 12 2013 in Civil Aviation)

Regards,

The Moderator Crew


Please use moderators@airliners.net to contact us.
153 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTheRedBaron From Mexico, joined Mar 2005, 2303 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 33171 times:

Holy COW. the pictures

From Rfields post:

Quote:
I should also mention that it is amazing how quickly an approach can go from looking fine to looking horribly dangerous in a low power / behind the power curve aircraft.

EDIT - found this link on another site - http://www.iamajellydoughnut.com/AT/Asiana.pdf

33 photos of the inside and the removal of the wreckage

What a miracle after all this destruction that almost everyone survived!!!

I know everyone of us make mistakes but those pilots deserve to be called morons, if not worse, way to destroy an aircraft and also the lives of the passengers...

The final report will not be kind to those guys...

TRB



The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9533 posts, RR: 42
Reply 2, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 32693 times:

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 1):
I know everyone of us make mistakes but those pilots deserve to be called morons, if not worse

Certain combinations of circumstances can make anyone look like a moron. At the moment it looks likely that the report will note errors made by this crew but we don't yet know how those errors came about. Labeling the crew as morons doesn't seem very objective or constructive.


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17118 posts, RR: 66
Reply 3, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 32359 times:

Quoting David L (Reply 2):
Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 1):
I know everyone of us make mistakes but those pilots deserve to be called morons, if not worse

Certain combinations of circumstances can make anyone look like a moron. At the moment it looks likely that the report will note errors made by this crew but we don't yet know how those errors came about. Labeling the crew as morons doesn't seem very objective or constructive.

        

It is very easy for us to sit and judge. Certainly a screwup occurred, but at this moment we don't have the exact details. Cockpit dynamics, fatigue, high workload and other factors all add up to make these situations quite complex.

Any pilot will tell you that pitch, power and airspeed is basic stuff, but he will also tell you that when you are tired and stressed you make mistakes. Then you get back on the ground and go "what the heck was I thinking?"

It will be interesting to see what the investigation turns up in this area.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineNorcal773 From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 1449 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 31880 times:

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 1):

WOOW! I hadn't seen those pics and the damage towards the back even without the fire is bad!



If you're going through hell, keep going
User currently offlinetraindoc From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 31804 times:

On some other aviation websites posters are saying that we need even better seats than those on the T7, which can handle 16 G's. They say that better seats will reduce spine injuries. That may be true, but only if you put each pax in some type of shock resistant space shuttle type seat with shoulder harnesses. In reality, any sudden downward force of even 1 or 2 G's is enough to cause spine injuries. My take as an ER physician is that the Asiana T7 did one heck of a job protecting the passengers. The proof is in how few pax actually had debilitating injuries.

User currently offlinehivue From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 1101 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 31718 times:

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 1):
I know everyone of us make mistakes but those pilots deserve to be called morons, if not worse,

The problem actually is that they are NOT morons but rather a trained and experienced flight crew. Still they crashed a 777 with no mx problems in great weather. Why is that? It's similar to the AF447 situation where a lot of people just wrote the crew off as a bunch of dolts for stalling the plane. Why does a competent, certified flight crew do stuff that, at least superficially, looks really stupid?


User currently offlineTheRedBaron From Mexico, joined Mar 2005, 2303 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 31415 times:

Quoting David L (Reply 2):
Certain combinations of circumstances can make anyone look like a moron. At the moment it looks likely that the report will note errors made by this crew but we don't yet know how those errors came about. Labeling the crew as morons doesn't seem very objective or constructive.
Quoting hivue (Reply 6):
Why does a competent, certified flight crew do stuff that, at least superficially, looks really stupid?

I agree that I am being too harsh on those guys, and God knows they have a huge burden to carry... but back on tops, one thing taht creeps up again and again is the: " too many cooks on the kitchen syndrome " AF 477 is a great example, Turkish crash (that cost the lives of the pilots) and this one too, I really find it hard to believe that (if the 777 did not have any MX problem), they crashed in a clear day, with an experienced crew and another set of eyes and Brain in the cockpit...

God knows I have made some really stupid mistakes, but I have learned that when in doubt ASK, and ask for help, you may look ignorant or nervous or lacking experience, but it avoids even larger mistakes...

I apologize for being too judgmental, and yes it doesnt bring anything constructive to the topic, but I guess the report will not be kind to them, and they have to live with that mistake...a burden I don't want ANYBODY to have....

TRB



The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9533 posts, RR: 42
Reply 8, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 31267 times:

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 7):
I have learned that when in doubt ASK, and ask for help, you may look ignorant or nervous or lacking experience, but it avoids even larger mistakes...

To be fair, we don't know much about how the Asiana crew interacted. Maybe the CRM was bad, maybe it was good but bad decisions were made, maybe it was more complicated.

In the case of AF447, the crew did question each other. What was lacking was suitable answers.


User currently offlineabba From Denmark, joined Jun 2005, 1376 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 31098 times:

Norcal773
"I lived in Asia as an expat for 3 years, Manila, Singapore and Hong Kong. I still think parading the FAs in front of camera while they cried had nothing to do with the culture, it was just a dumb move by OZ- period."

Don't be rediculus, please. First: 3 years is nothing but an extended turist stay. And don't speak of Asia and Asian culture as such. It simply makes no sense! The difference between Manila and Seul is - at least! - as big as between Istandbull and London or Cairo and New York. Hey - I have been in Mexico City - now I know American culture!


User currently offline135mech From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 412 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 30942 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 1):
What a miracle after all this destruction that almost everyone survived!!!

I know everyone of us make mistakes but those pilots deserve to be called morons, if not worse, way to destroy an aircraft and also the lives of the passengers...

The final report will not be kind to those guys...

TRB



I am sorry if I offend anyone (not my intention) but I completely agree with TheRedBaron on this! It was the best of conditions, and this should have never happened, the airline and insurance have to pay out the wazoo for this accident, and the ripple effects of this for them and the others involved; directly and indirectly, will suck for all!

I know that no one wants to ever hear "pilot error"... but call it what it is and don't hide behind politics etc.

RIP to the three!

Regards,
135Mech


User currently offline135mech From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 412 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 30885 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting David L (Reply 8):
In the case of AF447, the crew did question each other. What was lacking was suitable answers.



AND... the person in the right seat continuously holding back on the control stick saying he didn't understand what was wrong...HE was what was wrong in the end!

135Mech


User currently offlineNorcal773 From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 1449 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 30795 times:

Quoting abba (Reply 9):
on't be rediculus, please. First: 3 years is nothing but an extended turist stay. And don't speak of Asia and Asian culture as such. It simply makes no sense! The difference between Manila and Seul is - at least! - as big as between Istandbull and London or Cairo and New York. Hey - I have been in Mexico City - now I know American culture!

Eeh,you obviously didn't care to read my other posts, did you? Hate it when people take bits and pieces and don't bother to follow up on other posts before making as ass out of themselves. Anyways, whatever dude!



If you're going through hell, keep going
User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9533 posts, RR: 42
Reply 13, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 30705 times:

Quoting 135mech (Reply 10):
but call it what it is and don't hide behind politics etc.

Saying it might not be "pilot error, end of story" is not hiding behind politics in my view.

Quoting 135mech (Reply 11):
AND... the person in the right seat continuously holding back on the control stick saying he didn't understand what was wrong...HE was what was wrong in the end!

Except he didn't. From the DFDR sidestick traces it seems more likely that he was targeting a memory-item pitch but it was the pitch from the wrong phase of flight. Yes, that was wrong but it was still recoverable for some time. Plenty of other issues played a part. It doesn't alter the point I made in response to the suggestion that the AF447 crew didn't ask questions.


User currently offlineabba From Denmark, joined Jun 2005, 1376 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 30648 times:

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 12):
Eeh,you obviously didn't care to read my other posts


No - but I read this one and the one from Zeke which was a comment spot on in relation to this issue.


User currently offlineUA787DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 420 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 28899 times:

If the pilots really didn't want the 777 I would've taken it! 
Quoting David L (Reply 8):
To be fair, we don't know much about how the Asiana crew interacted.

        

I agree that the final report will not be kind to those guys, but it is too early to know exactly who it will ding the most. Any idea if/when we could get a copy of the CVRs?


User currently offlineglideslope From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1623 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 26903 times:

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 15):
I agree that the final report will not be kind to those guys, but it is too early to know exactly who it will ding the most. Any idea if/when we could get a copy of the CVRs?

IMO, the "Big Ding" will clearly be on the Instructor in the (R) seat. While the AC was not, they were clearly in "Mental Auto Pilot." The AC was flying them (so they thought).

I am very interested in the final report. I want to know when the (R) seat knew there was a problem. I hope he was not aware, and simply waited to long to make the call on a bad approach trying to save face for the (L) seat to get back on the curve.

Asian Culture could become a biggie in this. Hopefully not. I just fine it mind boggling with three on the deck they would attempt to stretch the glide like they did.

Thanks for the images (OP).



To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
User currently offline76er From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 568 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 25571 times:

Quoting glideslope (Reply 16):
I want to know when the (R) seat knew there was a problem.

Didn't he report to investigators seeing three red lights from the PAPI? That would be THE moment for him to notify the PF of this and confirm that corrective action is initiated.


User currently offlineNorcal773 From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 1449 posts, RR: 12
Reply 18, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 25333 times:

Quoting glideslope (Reply 16):
IMO, the "Big Ding" will clearly be on the Instructor in the (R) seat. While the AC was not, they were clearly in "Mental Auto Pilot." The AC was flying them (so they thought).

I am very interested in the final report. I want to know when the (R) seat knew there was a problem. I hope he was not aware, and simply waited to long to make the call on a bad approach trying to save face for the (L) seat to get back on the curve.

Asian Culture could become a biggie in this. Hopefully not. I just fine it mind boggling with three on the deck they would attempt to stretch the glide like they did.

I agree. He was also the pilot supposed to be monitoring the speed. As for the culture, I am not sure if you're referring to poor CRM. Someone posted a video of a KLM 777 missed approach at SFO in one of the earlier threads (I cannot find it) and they made the call much earlier when they realized they were high instead of bleeding attitude and speed quick like these guys did.

Quoting 76er (Reply 17):
Didn't he report to investigators seeing three red lights from the PAPI? That would be THE moment for him to notify the PF of this and confirm that corrective action is initiated.

He did, yes. He said it was one red at first then 3 red but I guess at that point it was too late.



If you're going through hell, keep going
User currently offlinewanderlustlax From United States of America, joined May 2013, 39 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 25015 times:

I don't know if this has been posted yet -- and while I caution is NOT official, all signs seem to point towards the worst possible news about the girl found under the foam outside the plane:

http://gawker.com/asiana-crash-victi...being-hit-by-emergency-v-836295760

Pending the final confirmation of this, I'm sure there will be more heads rolling than just the pilots'.


User currently offlinestlgph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9500 posts, RR: 26
Reply 20, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 24670 times:

Quoting wanderlustlax (Reply 19):

Bloomberg is reporting coroner confirmation on this report.


edit: San Francisco Fire Chief at press conference calling the death "a tragic accident."

[Edited 2013-07-19 10:21:26]


if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
User currently offlinebioyuki From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 156 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 24519 times:

Confirmed by the San Francisco Chronicle...she died due to blunt force injuries sustained when she was hit/run over by the vehicle:

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/articl...-survivor-was-run-over-4674928.php



Next flight: UA 726/84 SFO-EWR-TLV
User currently offlineLTC8K6 From United States of America, joined Jun 2009, 1211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 24376 times:

Yeah, and it looks like she was indeed where a few posters speculated...

I hate to think of that happening to her...

[Edited 2013-07-19 11:17:35]

User currently offline747megatop From United States of America, joined May 2007, 716 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 24298 times:

Quoting glideslope (Reply 16):
Asian Culture could become a biggie in this. Hopefully not. I just fine it mind boggling with three on the deck they would attempt to stretch the glide like they did.

Folks, i have been a silent observer on this culture thing and i think this is not really relevant to the issue at hand and here is why - because it is not quantifiable and cannot be clearly defined. Every culture in every country including the US has it's positives and negatives, it is very easy to talk about cultural issues of another culture. Other countries perceive the US culture (expecially at work) for example as being too casual and joke about everything [i know people will be up in arms now about this and folks will start defending this and saying this is not true, so let's not go there]. One incident comes to mind where a Northwest jet overshot an airport for quite a distance before they realized; luckily no one got killed as there was no crash - so, someone sitting outside the US can question the "casual culture" [again, i don't want to start an argument here, just putting another perspective of this incident and i haven't bothered to look up the cockpit CVR transcripts if they exist, so I personally don't know if the pilots were snoozing or talking about their most recent vacation etc.].

I think folks, the cultural issues topic can all together be avoided if we all (NTSB, ICAO etc. included) ask the right questions such as -

- if there is a disagreement on the cockpit; what is the procedure?
- if there is a tie; who breaks the tie? Who takes the final decision and overrules?
- obviously a cockpit is not a parliament or something where they can take their own time and go with the approach of majority rules; in dire emergencies someone has to make the decision and go with it. So again, what is the process? -
a) In a NON Emergency situation if there is a disagreement should the 2 pilots check with the relief pilot if there is one and the majority rules/prevails?
OR
b) in the case of Asiana, where during landing phase if there is disagreement, but there is critical lack of time and splite second decisions are required does senior most crew member overrules and make a split second decision ? [the decision may be to go around if there is time] OR is the defacto procedure to first do a go around and then circle around to sort out the differences?

So, i think more relevant questions about process/procedure need to be asked and answered versus commenting on "cultural issues".

[Edited 2013-07-19 12:23:41]

[Edited 2013-07-19 12:28:54]

User currently offlinenomadd22 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 1896 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 24232 times:

Quoting glideslope (Reply 16):
Asian Culture could become a biggie in this. Hopefully not. I just fine it mind boggling with three on the deck they would attempt to stretch the glide like they did.

That's getting kind of old. That culture exists all over the world. You should try to contradict the boss when you're working for BP sometimes. There's a reason they have more trouble than just about all the other oil companies in the US put together. You simply don't tell the boss he's wrong in a lot of cultures. Not just Asia by a long shot.



Andy Goetsch
25 Post contains images goldenargosy : I know that no one wants to ever hear "pilot error"... but call it what it is and don't hide behind politics etc.
26 David L : A potentially lengthy investigation has just got underway. Do you think the NTSB believes "pilot error" is the obvious conclusion and they'll just go
27 Post contains links zeke : I am am amazed at the the picture showing the remaining aft cabin crew seat, and how much of the rear galley and toilets are missing. I know we have
28 Post contains images Starlionblue : AFAIK, either pilot calling "go-around" means you go around first and ask questions later. This is not the time for discussion and going around will
29 BEG2IAH : How is the above different from this below? Aren't you saying, as another armchair air safety investigator, that it's not pilots' but aircraft (desig
30 zeke : Not at all, I have not said or implied there was a "aircraft (design) error" with this accident. I also have not ruled out pilot error, nor have I al
31 airtechy : At least in the Turkish Air and the Air France crash a clearly defined and known hardware failure preceded the accident. We can wait for this report,
32 wnbob : I want that NTSB "intern" identified and asked by a reporter if this is funny.
33 Post contains images David L : It can be every frustrating to discuss these matters when some people can only see black and white while the rest of us are talking shades of grey. Y
34 mandala499 : I guess it's a lot of this (subconscious) "it wouldn't happen to me" mentality. I guess many forget that improvements in safety is not, "if I see tha
35 airtechy : I think that you have described the problem exactly. Thank you. AT
36 Post contains images David L : You're welcome. Why didn't Mandala499 think of that?
37 Post contains images airtechy : Why does the quote selection never work right.... AT
38 Post contains images Mir : As I said in another thread, the term "it's pilot error" is one of the most useless phrases in aviation safety. In fact, I'm going to go out on a lim
39 Klaus : It's usually a simplification in isolation, but it can still be the core issue.
40 Mir : It's so simplified it's useless. How does saying "it's pilot error" prevent future crashes? By inspiring other pilots to be more careful about not ma
41 cornutt : I agree. Even when it's true, the next step needs to be taken: why did the pilot make that error? Was he inadequately trained? Misled or confused by
42 Skydrol : The photos posted in the PDF in reply 1 are incredible. Almost no fire or smoke damage to the aft cabin; has anyone seen post-crash photos of the coc
43 Speedbored : Couldn't agree more. Excepting gross negligence, people rarely make mistakes for no reason. Whenever anyone makes a mistake, in any walk of life, the
44 Klaus : It prevents future accidents by providing the impetus to improve training, provide adequate working conditions (including sufficient rest) and by poi
45 Mr AirNZ : I would disagree with that statement. Geert Hofstede would probably be the leading academic on national culture and has conducted vast research and p
46 BEG2IAH : Sorry I read it that way. It sounded like you were actively piling up other contributing factors including warnings, auto throttle, etc. and not ment
47 neutrino : That's due to pilot...err poster error. It happened because the user pressed the wrong button. It should be the "Quote Selected Text" above the nick
48 Mir : Simply blaming pilot error does none of those things. Training improvements come from when training deficiencies are discovered or suspected. Improve
49 Max Q : Well I disagree with most and maintain a couple of points. Asian culture, particularly Korean is a major problem in the cockpit. It inhibits contribut
50 AirlineCritic : Pilot error, accompanied by some user interface shortcomings in the cockpit design. Some of the pilots on this forum are in real life actual posters,
51 Kaiarahi : So we should expect the NTSB report to recommend banning Korean pilots and autothrottles? I guess Dutch pilots should have been banned after Tenerife
52 pliersinsight : Couldn't agree more with the criminally negligent part, but not on those in the cockpit, but their bosses and the airline execs. I think criminal cha
53 Klaus : "Simply" and exclusively reducing all conclusions to just that would be nonsensical, and nobody really advocates that either, so I don't see your poi
54 Post contains images Norcal773 : Very well-said indeed Klaus!
55 bellancacf : Things are simple when I'm the only one working at a task and when there's no one pushing me or looking over my shoulder: it's my responsibility, and
56 WarmNuts : I agree with this senitment in principle, but as someone who has spent 4 1/2 years in Asia working with companies in India, China, S. Korea, and the
57 TheRedBaron : Great observation Klaus..!!! Could no agree more. In the end if culture has to do with CRM and this crash, the FAA, and Asiana will have to make adju
58 mandala499 : LOL! OK, throw out the FO in the observer seat. Look at the 2 captains on the LHS and RHS... who's PF, who's PIC, who's junior, who's senior, who has
59 Klaus : I would reduce "assistant" to "tool". An assistant can actually share in responsibility and should provide his/her own good judgment in addition to e
60 bellancacf : Mmmm. Right after posting, I ran across an article about instances in which automation _increases_ workload. Too many things to monitor, I guess. Case
61 Klaus : Automation can be done well, but it can also be done badly... That says little about the principle as such.
62 Mir : Not at all. It's true that I haven't assigned responsibility to the pilots, but that's because we don't have enough information to do so, not because
63 Post contains images David L : I don't think anyone has. However, there are some who have said it was pilot error and/or cultural issues and that any talk of other factors is "hidi
64 NAV20 : Might get flamed a bit, but I'd better say that my job for many years was 'new town development' - which included design and construction. And that m
65 Klaus : And I must definitely disagree with that. It simply describes the pilots having committed some errors. Which may or may not be the primary cause of a
66 Kaiarahi : Which doesn't tell you anything in terms of improving air transportation safety. In order for it to be "meaningful", you need to know: 1) Which error
67 hivue : Lets not forget that the "pilot error" the evidence is pointing to in this case is not adequately monitoring airspeed during approach and landing. Su
68 zeke : Every year there are multiple accidents where cars enter traffic intersections on a green signal and are involved in sometimes fatal accidents. Some
69 hivue : I did not intend to leave the impression that I have concluded anything at all. The investigation may find that the crew did an exemplary job of moni
70 Klaus : The term "pilot error" is a summary term, just like "mechanical failure". Both terms and others like them are perfectly adequate and necessary to sum
71 David L : So, are you confident enough to say, right now, that there were no contributing factors, that there were no flaws in their training or in the company
72 Post contains images Kaiarahi : A couple of examples. A NZ DC-8 crashed at AKL in 1966 on a training flight when the very senior training captain mistakenly selected reverse thrust
73 Klaus : Nobody has ever advocated to completely replace detailed investigations with just a single-phrase summary exclusively. That would make no sense whats
74 zeke : "pilot error" is not something I normally see in the actual investigation report following an accident, they will use terms like contributing causes,
75 Kaiarahi : Except half the posters on this thread, who are advocating crucifixion of the OZ pilots on the basis of the single-phrase summary "pilot error". As l
76 Klaus : Come on – that is a massive exaggeration and very far removed from reality. The emerging evidence simply continued to point towards the pilots firs
77 Post contains images David L : Then I suggest you look again. That's all well and good for the internet in general but not for an aviation enthusiasts' website. In my view there's
78 Klaus : I've been here all along since the first thread. What you've claimed simply hasn't happend. Everybody is welcome to present differentiated, well-thou
79 nomadd22 : Failing to hold individuals accountable for negligence isn't going to do much to increase safety. Incidents like this, that require multiple failures
80 David L : Unless the possibility of contributing factors is suggested. So, might as well just join in with the Youtube comments or discuss it in the non-cooker
81 Norcal773 : A lot of people on this thread seem to confuse what the meaning of the word 'cause' is. If it turns out that the pilots didn't monitor speed as they s
82 ikramerica : Please. Now we are getting into pure pilot defensiveness mode. As Klaus is pointing out, this is a red herring, black or white, no discussion argumen
83 Klaus : Everybody has the choice of being a good example – or not. You can't link to a section of the discussion which would actually support your claim. W
84 Starlionblue : The regulations regarding accident investigations in much of the world including the USA and Europe are based on ICAO documents. They state specifica
85 NAV20 : I'm sure that there were contributing factors, DavidL - especially inadequate training (both the South Korean Government and the airline have already
86 Post contains links BEG2IAH : That was me in the ALPA thread, response #69, i.e., U.S Pilot Union-ALPA Slams Ntsb Over Asiana Crash (by g500 Jul 18 2013 in Civil Aviation)
87 Post contains links NAV20 : Turns out that I got the times a bit wrong in my post. '9 seconds' was a call to add power. First mention of going around was apparently only 3 second
88 Post contains links oly720man : Pilots will know more about this than I do, but this suggests one possible cause of the crash http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....l/AW_07_22_2013_p
89 jetsetter1969 : Quoting Starlionblue reply84 " Individuals could be held accountable in an accident investigation, but how does this improve safety? Pilots who in the
90 Post contains images je89_w : First of all, my thoughts are with the family and friends of the victims and all those affected. It's worth noting these two rather interesting images
91 hivue : Aaron747 reported this theory several parts earlier on this thread.
92 Post contains links and images airmagnac : (my bold) Actually, it seems a lot of people have this idea that there is 1 single cause to a crash - THE cause, as you say. With maybe a few "contri
93 ComeAndGo : As it has been pointed out a number of times already, Asiana & Korean fly to numerous airports in Asia that don't have ILS. So that's not a facto
94 Starlionblue : Any landing (and any flight) has a sort of acceptable "bucket of risk". Things like inop ILS, crew fatigue, newness in type, crosswinds, gusts, low c
95 Post contains links NAV20 : This theory is getting a lot of coverage on the Net - and certainly 'fits with the facts' in the sense that it is known that the pilot(s) raised the
96 zeke : There are close calls on a regular basis, if this aircraft just touched down 20-50m further down the runway in all likely hood we would be discussing
97 steinberger45 : If I am not mistaken wasn't there a Korean air crash in the past with an issue with the crew culture. Could we have an issue here with crew management
98 NAV20 : Could you please specify some of said 'factual information,' Zeke?
99 Mir : Not trying to put a taboo on it, just trying to get people to evolve the conversation into something more productive. Actually, if that's the case th
100 sk909 : Sure it is possible, but because of the previous accidents, the "culture" has changed. So it would definitely shock me, if it were the case.
101 sk909 : As you say, there is just never 1 reason for an accident. It is the "swiss cheese hole"-theory. But as far as I have been able to read, the pilots fl
102 Post contains links and images flyingturtle : I wanted to post this example, but did not think it was worthy enough for this thread: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why%E2%80%93because_analysis#Exam
103 Post contains links zeke : The factual briefings have been made available to the public. July 07 http://youtu.be/XLYeUbeyfOg July 08 http://youtu.be/d9MTLlzf8Co July 09 http://
104 NAV20 : zeke, I watched all the NTSB briefings you provided links to, and do not recall any 'causal factors.....not in the cockpit' being mentioned/discussed
105 zeke : It sounds like you do not understand the methodology used in accident investigation, which is not really the topic of this thread. The videos provide
106 Speedbored : Well I'm not that young anymore either but please don't attempt to speak for me. I am one of 'the rest of us' and I can clearly recall quite a few of
107 NAV20 : I watched them 'first time round,' Zeke, when they first came out. And I simply do not recall ANY 'non-cockpit causal factors' of the type you refer
108 Post contains images Norcal773 : 'Failure to monitor speed' is an error for technicality sake Did you consider the fact that he might have watched them before thus didn't need to wat
109 wanderlustlax : Well, zeke. That's the most descriptive non-answer I've ever read. You complain about those on here that are too quick to damn the pilots but you see
110 zeke : I said "causal factor", which is not the same as "cause", the way people misquote me is the reason why I want them to look at those NTSB briefings an
111 NAV20 : Fair enough, as far as it goes, Speedbored - but if you look at the links in Posts 88 and 95 above, you'll see that all the evidence is that the auto
112 Post contains links tommy525 : KTVU producers fired for on air gaff: http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/matier...ver-Asiana-pilots-fake-4685627.php It was NOT taken lightly to say the le
113 NAV20 : Did a bit more googling and discovered that 'Flight Level Change' mode works the elevators, NOT the throttles. In the climb, one can assume that the p
114 hivue : OZ214's AP was disengaged (turned off at about 1500 ft). The pilot was doing any nose raising and lowering manually (and LNAV too). It sounds like he
115 76er : Sort of right. When selecting FLCH with a lower altitude set in the MCP thrust will be reduced to idle, while elevators will maintain the selected spe
116 2175301 : Zeke: In part I understand what you are saying; but, I think you are confusing "facts" with "Causal factors" - as an example; the ILS system was shut
117 hivue : And thus will never engage if the selected altitude is set to 0. This, as I understand it, is the essence of the "trap."
118 dakota123 : Basically yes. Throttles will trend towards idle but it's a maneuver coordinated with the AP. The maneuver reportedly uses 125 seconds as its time ba
119 Mir : Basically correct. The PM stated that he though the A/TH was taking care of speed, so it would appear that at least one person in the cockpit had tha
120 Post contains links zeke : I am not, at the early stage, every fact is a causal factor, techniques like root cause analysis to determine the relative merit or weighting of vari
121 Post contains links NAV20 : Turns out that Deborah Hersman has already made public mention of that fact. And that they had one flight director on and one off - thus 'ensuring' t
122 zeke : She has mentioned some facts, but not everything you quoted. You have said you have watched all of the briefings, why not quote her directly instead
123 wanderlustlax : And why not quote her directly yourself when referring to these so-called casual factors instead of referring people to hours of online videos. Seems
124 zeke : Every fact the NTSB at this stage is a causal factor, they will need to do their analysis in due course on all the facts available to determine what
125 Post contains images NAV20 : Really, Zeke.......... You probably know better than me that the NTSB's job - and policy - is not to apportion blame? The most that Ms. Hersman will
126 zeke : There are a lot of reasons why even if everything was working correctly, and the NTSB has not attempted to determine the cause. I know of another A/T
127 Post contains images NAV20 : Great, Zeke, much more constructive. Please tell us all what the 'other auto-throttle function' is?
128 76er : Care to elaborate on that?
129 2175301 : That is clearly not true - and I say that as a fully qualified root cause investigator who runs such investigations for the nuclear industry. There a
130 Speedbored : I suspect that what zeke actually meant to say was 'every fact is a potential causal factor', which, at this stage, is the reality of the situation,
131 Kaiarahi : Please!! You derailed many AF447 threads by continuing to quote third- and fourth-hand sources that misreported or distorted the official BEA report.
132 zeke : In the July 9 briefing at the 3 min mark by the NTSB were describing the switch positions in the cockpit, they stated the A/T was armed. At the 17 mi
133 NAV20 : Thanks, Zeke. Apologies, never flown anything with an auto-throttle myself; but does that mean that a double-click gets you full manual control on an
134 dakota123 : Even if both FDs had been on the system would have reacted exactly the same since FLCH was selected as the AP/FD mode. FLCH = no AT wakeup. From your
135 NAV20 : Sure that there may well be, pal..........BUT........... Please inform us all - ASAP - what said 'far better sources' are saying about the likely cau
136 Speedbored : Given that the CBS article is mostly journalistic supposition, just about any other source is likely to be as-good or better. The best source, of cou
137 Post contains images NAV20 : Looks like a bit of stalemate really, friend - my source isn't saying much, yours isn't saying anything! My guess is that, in respect of this acciden
138 rfields5421 : Yes they are. And quoting speculative, uninformed opinion rather than factual or solid information - more likely than not caused damage and injury to
139 Speedbored : Really? Completely unnecessary.
140 dakota123 : I meant 'far better sources' in the context of information for our armchair efforts. (And don't kid yourself, that's all it is.) Not 'sources' in the
141 sonomaflyer : We will know the likely causes of this accident once the final NTSB report is released. We have bits and pieces of the overall puzzle from the inform
142 b757capt : Any ideas where the wreckage was moved to?
143 Post contains links NAV20 : According to this report, b757capt, it's been stored in a 'remote area.' Sounds as if the NTSB has finished with it:- "The debris will be stored for t
144 Post contains images Mir : I've learned that a lot of aviation safety consultants are quite ignorant of the particularities of a particular aircraft if they don't have experien
145 mandala499 : Absolutely. I have received such calls for other accidents. A lot of the times, the journo would ask, "well how would it work on your plane or on a p
146 Kaiarahi : My cousin's wife's brother's mother-in-law, who once took a flight from IVC to CHC, says it's because the pilot pushed the thingamijig instead of pul
147 HOONS90 : As of August 12th, Asiana flight 214 will no longer exist as it is being renumbered to Asiana flight 212. The return flight will be renumbered to 211.
148 Alias1024 : North side of the 28s, over by the Signature ramp
149 n471wn : And regardless of the stuff they put on the fence you can see it well and especially if you are in a high profile vehicle--Prius owners might as well
150 Norcal773 : That's interesting, Thanks for the update. I don't blame them for scrubbing flight # 214.
151 Post contains links shrike : Well this is an interesting FAA response (reported by many media sites), especially given the amount of "uncertainty until we get the report" that has
152 Post contains links legacyins : Already being discussed here: FAA Advises All Foreign Carriers To Use GPS At SFO (by bioyuki Jul 28 2013 in Civil Aviation)
153 rfields5421 : The FAA and the NTSB are different agencies with different responsibilities and duties. The NTSB and FAA will often disagree on the proper course of
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 8 posted Wed Jul 10 2013 10:43:04 by moderators
OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 7 posted Tue Jul 9 2013 10:13:35 by moderators
OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 6 posted Mon Jul 8 2013 09:16:18 by Moderators
OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 5 posted Sun Jul 7 2013 15:48:03 by moderators
OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 4 posted Sun Jul 7 2013 07:13:51 by Moderators
OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 3 posted Sat Jul 6 2013 18:52:31 by moderators
OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 2 posted Sat Jul 6 2013 13:21:22 by moderators
OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 1 posted Sat Jul 6 2013 11:34:05 by FlyDeltaJets
TK B738 Crash At Amsterdam - Part 10 posted Wed Mar 11 2009 02:04:55 by PanAm_DC10
Fuel Truck Crash At PHL 7/27/10 posted Tue Jul 27 2010 18:26:36 by 757luver