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KLM Denies Boarding To Filipino WYD Participant  
User currently offlineAkiestar From Philippines, joined May 2009, 786 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 17591 times:

So this is making the rounds in local media here in the Philippines: Arjean Marie Belco, an indigenous student from Mindanao who was selected to go to Brazil for World Youth Day (and was traveling outside the Philippines for the first time), was denied boarding on a KLM flight to Amsterdam from Kuala Lumpur.

http://globalnation.inquirer.net/811...rld-youth-day-delegates-flight-hit

According to the organization sponsoring her trip, KLM was asking very probing questions (why is your passport so new, how much money do you have, etc.) and ultimately denied her boarding despite having full documentation that her expenses are covered for and she is going to Brazil for World Youth Day. In effect, the agent was acting like an immigration officer when he doesn't need to be. (Note that Filipinos don't need visas to go to Brazil.)

While I love KL and am very willing to fly with them, this does no good for their reputation here, and even I am at a loss as to how this could possibly happen. People are calling on the agent, a certain Mr. Shawa, to apologize to her, and some are even calling on Ms. Belco to file a complaint against KLM. Some are demanding a boycott.

(After the incident, she was eventually allowed to board after being stuck in Kuala Lumpur for two days, with her sponsor even having to fly all the way there from Manila just to plead with the airline to let her fly.)

[Edited 2013-07-23 06:39:08]

100 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3589 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 17498 times:

The problem is that if immigration at the far end say no, the airline has to repatriate the person at their expense, even worse in some cases the Country saying no might impose a fine.

If all the people who attend such events were honest there wouldn't be a problem, unfortunately however a few always use it as an opportunity to chnage their Country of residence. It has been reported in the UK media this week that there are still 70 participants from last years Olympic games outstaying their welcome, some having claimed asylum, but the majority have just disappeared.


User currently offlineAkiestar From Philippines, joined May 2009, 786 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 17445 times:

Here's the original Facebook note from Goodxorg explaining the incident.

http://www.facebook.com/Goodxorg/posts/527828993937098

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 1):
The problem is that if immigration at the far end say no, the airline has to repatriate the person at their expense, even worse in some cases the Country saying no might impose a fine.

I did mention that Filipinos don't need visas to enter Brazil, right?

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 1):
If all the people who attend such events were honest there wouldn't be a problem, unfortunately however a few always use it as an opportunity to chnage their Country of residence.

Filipinos would prefer to become TNTs (tago nang tago) in the wealthy countries of the West, particularly the U.S., Canada, Japan or Western Europe. Not a country like Brazil, which is nowhere near as wealthy as those favorite targets of overstaying Filipinos. (In fact, more Brazilians are moving here than there are Filipinos moving there.)

However, while the risk is understandable, I am at a loss as to how the airline would be the ultimate arbiter of one's intent to supposedly immigrate.

[Edited 2013-07-23 06:03:13]

User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3477 posts, RR: 17
Reply 3, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 17414 times:
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Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 1):
The problem is that if immigration at the far end say no, the airline has to repatriate the person at their expense, even worse in some cases the Country saying no might impose a fine.

Only if his documents are not correct. As Philippines citizens do not need a visa to enter Brazil then the airline bears zero responsability in this case. I am sure also that she did have a return ticket so again Kl will be zero out of pocket expenses.



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineFURUREFA From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 802 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 17172 times:

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 3):
Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 1):
The problem is that if immigration at the far end say no, the airline has to repatriate the person at their expense, even worse in some cases the Country saying no might impose a fine.

Only if his documents are not correct. As Philippines citizens do not need a visa to enter Brazil then the airline bears zero responsability in this case. I am sure also that she did have a return ticket so again Kl will be zero out of pocket expenses.

Some countries have other regulations in the place of or in addition to visa requirements (medical, financial, etc.). The issue is that often not only is the airline fined, but so is the individual agent in charge of documentation. In addition, most airlines have a desk that can help with documentation issues, and their word often supercedes the agent's.

In short, let's wait to chastize before we have all the facts.


User currently onlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20640 posts, RR: 62
Reply 5, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 17145 times:

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 3):
Only if his documents are not correct. As Philippines citizens do not need a visa to enter Brazil then the airline bears zero responsability in this case.

That's the curious thing about it. It looks like the agent may have overreacted based upon the routing and how recently the ticket was purchased. But if documents were in order, the ticket was valid in KLM's system, and she posed no obvious risk to other passengers (like by being drunk), that shouldn't disqualify someone from boarding a flight. It isn't against the law to fly via a third country in order to save $1,000, as this passenger apparently did, according to what was published.

Airlines have to realize that in the world of internet sales, people will take advantage of deals originating in other countries, and carry those passengers even if the ticket looks "too cheap".



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7703 posts, RR: 21
Reply 6, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 16765 times:
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Quoting Akiestar (Reply 2):
I did mention that Filipinos don't need visas to enter Brazil, right?

You did. Common misconception though - not needing a visa does not equate to being assured of entry. There will likely be questions on the border, and the chance of being refused entry. It happens in lots of countries, on a regular basis, for passengers who don't require a visa prior to travel. Add to the mix recent reports that Brazil is experiencing high levels of illegal workers from Asia, and the fact that the airline is probably all too used to having to pick up the cost of those refused entry, and their position becomes a little more understandable. Doesn't mean that they're in the right here, but let's at least get the full context right.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlinePlaneInsomniac From Canada, joined Nov 2007, 678 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 16540 times:

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 2):
I did mention that Filipinos don't need visas to enter Brazil, right?
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 3):
As Philippines citizens do not need a visa to enter Brazil

The issue here seemed to be the transit at AMS, through which the girl was supposed to connect. This is mentioned in the original FB post, where they state that the KLM representative suggested they get in contact with the Dutch (and not the Brazilian) embassy.

In order to transit through AMS, the girl would have had to pass Dutch immigration, obviously. So if she had been denied there, KLM would have had a problem on their hands.

A few more thoughts about the Inquirer report:
- This is all based on a personal, one-sided FB post. Hardly a trustworthy source of information.
- Although the FB poster painstakingly enumerates the contents of the "folder of documents" the girl was bringing along, he does not mention any return ticket. Actually, the post explicitly only mentions a ticket TO Brazil, booked at short notice. Strange, to say the least.
- The charity funding the trip can hardly be considered a known quantity. The FB poster himself states that the trip the girl was to be sent on was a first-time "experiment" funded by a kind of crowd-sourcing effort.
- The FB poster states that the itinerary was changed on short notice to save money, although the trip had been planned for a long time. This appears strange, as the cheapest way to book a trip early on is by buying a non-refundable ticket. Especially when dates and destination are well-known, such as in the case of the World Youth Day.
- The FB poster chooses to personally and publicly name the KLM representative and paint him in a negative light ("he laughed at us"), and even goes as far as suggesting racist motives. Not normally the behaviour of somebody whos is interested in a factual discussion.

Frankly, the more I think about it, the unlikelier the FB story becomes. That an airline employee would arbitrarily deny somebody boarding "just because" although the passenger possessed the requisite documentation seems somewhat far-fetched. I wouldn't be surprised if there was more to the story.



Am I cured? Slept 5 hours on last long-haul flight...
User currently offlineAkiestar From Philippines, joined May 2009, 786 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 16516 times:

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 7):
The issue here seemed to be the transit at AMS, through which the girl was supposed to connect. This is mentioned in the original FB post, where they state that the KLM representative suggested they get in contact with the Dutch (and not the Brazilian) embassy.

In order to transit through AMS, the girl would have had to pass Dutch immigration, obviously. So if she had been denied there, KLM would have had a problem on their hands.

The Netherlands (and heck, the entire Schengen area for non-Schengen to non-Schengen transit) has sterile transit, and transiting KUL-AMS-GIG, she wouldn't need to pass through Dutch immigration. So how did KLM come to the conclusion that Ms. Belco needs to deal with Dutch immigration if she's not entering the Schengen Area? (I would presume the airline would know how its own hub works, right?)

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 7):
This appears strange, as the cheapest way to book a trip early on is by buying a non-refundable ticket.

I paid €1250 to fly MNL-AMS-CDG-LIN-AMS-MNL on KLM in April for a conference, bought on the day of departure (3:30 pm to be exact). Buying cheap tickets does not always mean having to buy them months in advance.

[Edited 2013-07-23 08:03:54]

User currently offlineTYCOON From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 394 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 16477 times:

Connecting on a KLM flight from KL to Brazil, one doesn't need to go through passport control as they are not technically entering into the Schengen area. If the passenger were connecting to a Schengen country then they would.
Furthermore, my understanding is if a passenger is refused by immigration control it can only be the airline's responsibility if the airline was negligent (ie didn't check for valid VISA or if a one-way ticket didn't have proof of return travel or residency permit etc...).


User currently offlineairdfw From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 193 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 16446 times:

I think the agent is concerned not about the ultimate destination rather the stop over at Amsterdam. The problem is some people abuse this transit privileges and demand asylum. I think that is what the KL ticket agent was concerned about. Sad but that is what people from poor countries always face. The presumption of abuses like that and until you prove otherwise but new passport, youth traveling alone, no previous trips etc are making it tough for the agent and it is easy to deny the boarding.

User currently offlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3589 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 16446 times:

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 8):
The Netherlands (and heck, the entire Schengen area for non-Schengen to non-Schengen transit) has sterile transit, and transiting KUL-AMS-GIG, she wouldn't need to pass through Dutch immigration. So technically, the person in question does not need to deal with Dutch immigration.

If however Brazil say no, KLM have a problem with a passenger stuck air side at AMS.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7703 posts, RR: 21
Reply 12, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 16402 times:
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Quoting TYCOON (Reply 9):
Furthermore, my understanding is if a passenger is refused by immigration control it can only be the airline's responsibility if the airline was negligent (ie didn't check for valid VISA or if a one-way ticket didn't have proof of return travel or residency permit etc...).

No. That is generally true in the case of charges or fines, but the cost of repatriation and possibly also detention will generally always be borne by the airline regardless of the reason for refusal.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently onlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20640 posts, RR: 62
Reply 13, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 16377 times:

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 11):
If however Brazil say no, KLM have a problem with a passenger stuck air side at AMS.

If Brazil said no, she flies back to KUL, where she was admitted into Malaysia without problem.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7703 posts, RR: 21
Reply 14, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 16354 times:
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Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 13):
If Brazil said no, she flies back to KUL, where she was admitted into Malaysia without problem.

Completely correct.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25334 posts, RR: 22
Reply 15, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 15544 times:

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 7):
In order to transit through AMS, the girl would have had to pass Dutch immigration, obviously.

Not correct. She can go directly from gate to gate with no passport controls. She would only have to pass immigration controls if she was staying in the Netherlands or connecting to another Schengen country.


User currently onlinebennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7611 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 15488 times:

Was there any doubt about the passport itself.

How recently was it issued.


User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3477 posts, RR: 17
Reply 17, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 15400 times:
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Quoting FURUREFA (Reply 4):
In short, let's wait to chastize before we have all the facts

Sorry? i did not chastize nobody..

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 7):
In order to transit through AMS, the girl would have had to pass Dutch immigration,

Nope.

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 16):
Was there any doubt about the passport itself.

How recently was it issued.

In one of my trips i flew with a new passport less than 24 hours old, no problems there.

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 11):
If however Brazil say no, KLM have a problem with a passenger stuck air side at AMS.

How did you come up with such a conclusion?  



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineMAS777 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 1999, 2935 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 15361 times:

Just wondered if anyone thought that the KLM agent could have been concerned about the possibility of human trafficking... Thus wanted further clarification?

User currently onlinebennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7611 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 15222 times:

I am flying with FR.

I know that the checking in process requires confirmation of passport details.

If you booked a flight quoting 1 passport number, and by the date of the flight, you had a new passport, would this be an issue.


User currently offlineandrefranca From Brazil, joined May 2011, 610 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 14991 times:

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 2):
Not a country like Brazil, which is nowhere near as wealthy as those favorite targets of overstaying Filipinos. (In fact, more Brazilians are moving here than there are Filipinos moving there.)

Not true at all, the per capita may tell we earn average 765 usd a month (Philippines is 390 usd a month) , I honestly can't imagine how people live with 765 usd here, most of people I know at least earn an average 1200 usd a month.

Secondly as a former airline employee (I'm not naming the airlines of course), during training Filipino nationality was always one of the nationalities taken as a "risky" nationality due to the high number of over-stayers, I'm not saying what the KLM officer did in KUL was right, but he may have his reasons! on my business trips to Panamá it's very common to see Filipino ship crew being detained by immigration and then boarded somewhere else.

Apart from that, Brazil is suffering immigration crises along with many other problems we are trying to solve, my city MAO legalized +-10 THOUSAND Haitians refugees on the past 2 years, without counting peruvians, bolivians, cubans to name a few, immigration is under pressure and maybe they refuse lots of KLM pax's coming in, who knows?

Naturally it's common for us to move to where it's cheaper to live, as I type my friend Eduardo may be sleeping in Manila, he told me with 40% of his monthly check he pays 3 months of his rent in a nice part of manila.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 6):
not needing a visa does not equate to being assured of entry. There will likely be questions on the border, and the chance of being refused entry. It happens in lots of countries, on a regular basis, for passengers who don't require a visa prior to travel.

  


User currently offlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3589 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 14950 times:

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 17):
Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 11):If however Brazil say no, KLM have a problem with a passenger stuck air side at AMS.
How did you come up with such a conclusion?

Easily, once the passenger commences their journey, if the destination country says "no entry" its down to KLM to sort it out..

Immigration at the destination have every right to say no, regardless of visas etc. If the KLM agent had reasonable grounds to be suspicious their bosses would expect them to either say no or seek guidance from their superiors


User currently offlinemjoelnir From Iceland, joined Feb 2013, 1449 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 13486 times:

Typical a.net discussion: rule # 1, the airline or there staff is always right, the pax is always wrong.
rule # 2 if the pax is right rule # 1 still applies, but a.net needs more information..


How can an airline or there representative, having sold a ticket therefore entered a contract to fly said pax from A to B, deny boarding when all the papers are OK. That is simple breach of contract no excuse.

All this arguments above about the responsibility of the airline if you take them really seriously, the airline should stop flying passengers.

[Edited 2013-07-23 17:22:36]

User currently offlinePRFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 306 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 13461 times:

She is on her way to Brazil after KLM Malaysia intervened. It's in their FB page.

User currently offlineOB1504 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 3354 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 12559 times:

Quoting FURUREFA (Reply 4):
Some countries have other regulations in the place of or in addition to visa requirements (medical, financial, etc.). The issue is that often not only is the airline fined, but so is the individual agent in charge of documentation. In addition, most airlines have a desk that can help with documentation issues, and their word often supercedes the agent's.

   At my current airline, the first time I check in a passenger who is later denied entry to their destination country, I automatically receive a three-day involuntary vacation (suspension). If it happens a second time, it's immediate termination. And this is actually a very lenient policy, as my previous airline would terminate employees on the spot for the first immigration fine. The fines can run anywhere between $1,000 to $12,000 per person, which can sometimes be up to half of the ticket agent's annual pay.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 6):
You did. Common misconception though - not needing a visa does not equate to being assured of entry. There will likely be questions on the border, and the chance of being refused entry. It happens in lots of countries, on a regular basis, for passengers who don't require a visa prior to travel. Add to the mix recent reports that Brazil is experiencing high levels of illegal workers from Asia, and the fact that the airline is probably all too used to having to pick up the cost of those refused entry, and their position becomes a little more understandable. Doesn't mean that they're in the right here, but let's at least get the full context right.

   The airline reserves the right to deny boarding to passengers who may technically meet all of the immigration requirements as outlined in TIMATIC, but who may otherwise create doubt as to their admissability. Considering the potential implications to his employment, I don't blame the KL agent for erring on the side of caution. Airlines simply do not like to take chances when it comes to immigration and the staff are all too aware of this.

[Edited 2013-07-23 18:40:57]

25 OB1504 : The passenger may qualify for an involuntary refund, but at the end of the day, the airline reserves the right to break off the contract and return a
26 mjoelnir : You seem both of the opinion that an airline entering into a contract with a customer has no responsibility to fulfill this contract, I think you are
27 MarcoPoloWorld : And just as if to prove your point, this guy posts the following just after your post: First of all, then it would be impossible for any check-in age
28 FURUREFA : As someone who has worked for the #1 and #2 largest airlines in the world (hint), I can only emphasize the person liability that goes into internatio
29 JAAlbert : Hilarious! So she basically had to fly 3/4 way around the world in the opposite direction to get to Brazil? Is there no better direct routing? If I w
30 AeroWesty : Check the Great Circle Mapper. Via the Pacific isn't shorter over traditional airline routes. She was denied boarding at KUL.
31 Akiestar : Yes. Flying in the opposite direction, either she will have two stops, or worse, she will transit the United States. One-stop itineraries from Southe
32 Apprentice : How about been profiled by Schengen zone airline' clerk due country of origin even when fliying as a/c mechanic and listed in General Declaration? In
33 OB1504 : I am, because the airline does not have such a responsibility. If the airline fails to live up to its end of the bargain, it gives the passenger thei
34 Stratofish : Boarding can be denied on grounds of said contract. Spot on! Furthermore KL probably employs outsourced agents at KUL who just fulfill the handling o
35 mjoelnir : If airlines could just give the money back why are they offering compensation and a new flight when overbooking, they could just give the money back.
36 777klm : Have a look at the KLM General Conditions of Carriage and then Article 9 (section k) in particular: The Passenger does not appear to be in possession
37 fn1001 : From my personal experiences during the nineties and the early noughties, I fully agree with the “personal, one-sided FB post”, which I would not
38 mjoelnir : It is very clear that you do not read what others are writing. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A PAX HAVING ALL THE RIGHT TRAVELING DOCUMENTS, so what you are r
39 C010T3 : Immigration in Brazil is already lax as it is. During WYD, it's even more so. She would have no problems entering the country. Seriously, a Spaniard w
40 MillwallSean : Mjoelnir is right. As long as she has the valid documents the person denying her is in breach of contract. There are no special laws for airline contr
41 777klm : No worries, I did read the other posts. No need to shout. The only thing I'm saying is that if an airline reasonably doubts a passenger's reasons for
42 Apprentice : ] As long as states outsource their problems to the airlines, ... Airlines will outsorce their to custommers ?
43 AA94 : KLM has an interesting tool on their website where you are able to input your nationality, embarkation point, transfer point, and destination point, a
44 RussianJet : Advice on basic requirements like that can only take you so far. What advice like that does not give you is chapter and verse on immigration laws/rul
45 AA94 : I think you're incorrect. When an agent's job, presumably their livelihood and sole source of income (assuming they don't have other jobs stashed awa
46 RussianJet : I would find it fairly hard to believe that an agent would be canned for allowing a correctly-documented passenger to travel, even if they were refus
47 DTW2HYD : It is the most likely reason. Malays are known to look down on their neighbors (with the exception of Singaporeans). Long story, twenty years back Am
48 diesel33 : I work for an airline (a large international one) and I agree.
49 Post contains links and images Akiestar : I'm not sure if only people in the Philippines can see this, but KLM has issued a response: http://www.facebook.com/KLM/posts/10151518209660773. But P
50 RussianJet : It's not a question of being fined. That wouldn't happen if the passenger was correctly-documented. What would happen though, is if she was refused e
51 AyostoLeon : Congratulations on doing some basic research to provide KLM's travel advice and information on whybthey may deny boarding. I don't accept that the ai
52 RussianJet : They wouldn't be, providing all required documents are in order. Again, they would however be still responsible for the removal of the passenger rega
53 AyostoLeon : That clears up the issue of fines and as far as repatriation is concerned, costs can be attempted to be recovered from the passenger, which is only f
54 RussianJet : On the other hand, paying large sums of money to airlines to repatriate passengers found to be inadmissable, merely for the honour of enforcing your
55 DTW2HYD : If passenger paid for round trip ticket in advance, there is literally no cost to KLM other than rebooking her on an earlier flight. Most such trips
56 AeroWesty : I'm going to disagree with this for the moment. I believe it's cheaper to turn someone around immediately than to fish them out of the population onc
57 AyostoLeon : An inescapable burden of any citizens in any country is that they ultimately pay for whatever policies are in place, either directly or indirectly. I
58 Devilfish : She did appear to be in possession of valid travel documents. She did not enter the country illegally nor sought to transit there illegally. Divining
59 RussianJet : I certainly won't argue on that point - you're completely right there. That's where I don't agree. It's part of the deal, airlines are aware of their
60 AyostoLeon : I don't think that it is "vital" to shift the burden but it clearly is expedient. It is one thing to impose a reasonable burden like checking that a
61 AeroWesty : Here's something to think about. When I visit a country, I become a taxpayer by way of the departure/immigration/what-have-you taxes paid. Travelers
62 Post contains images RussianJet : It's something to think about. In the case of the UK though, there are no taxes collected on arrival, and non-EU nationals can often claim VAT back o
63 Post contains images AyostoLeon : @ RussianJet "I realise that some may think differently though, and that's fair enough." Glad to hear it as that is the way it should be. Exchange of
64 AeroWesty : True, but the UK has a high departure tax. To fly on a typical journey in Coach from the UK to the US, £106.75 in duty and service charges are colle
65 RussianJet : Thank you very much - highly appreciated. I fully agree that there is no need for acrimony simply because opinions differ. Ah, well yes - that's true
66 777klm : I most certainly did not. If my posts made you feel otherwise, I'm sorry for that. I reacted to a quote describing a general situation, not this one
67 sankaps : As others have pointed out, this is factually incorrect -- no visa required for sterile area connections. It is amazing though how many people confid
68 RussianJet : In the UK at least it is all laid out in the relevant provisions of the Immigration Act (1971) (relating to the burden of removal being on the carrie
69 sankaps : I think the *convention* is that the airline takes you back using the return half of the ticket that the pax presumably had (and paid for), but is un
70 RussianJet : That is not correct. In the UK, rest of EU and US at least, the authorities direct the carrier to remove the passenger who brought them in, regardles
71 sankaps : Even if this is the case, the question of who bears the cost if the pax's documentation was in order and there was no error on part of the airline re
72 DTW2HYD : Anyone traveling without a confirmed return ticket to a five day conference is a suspect or if sponsoring organization is under immigration watch in
73 Post contains links RussianJet : In the countries I'm familiar with it's not unclear at all. Like I say, in the UK the Immigration Act (1971) provides that a carrier must remove any
74 AyostoLeon : This "convention" would only apply where the passenger had a return ticket and where acccess to a country was dependent on such a ticket. That may be
75 sankaps : Sure, but the airline can claim it back from the passengers. If they are unable to do that, chalk it up to an unavoidable risk and cost of doing busi
76 RussianJet : Indeed. It may sound like an unfair burden on the face of it, but as you say - it is a risk of the business. Also, while it's not exactly uncommon pe
77 AyostoLeon : I can see merit in that if, and only if, the airlines recompense passengers over and beyond the cost of the airfare. For the airlines the cost of rep
78 RussianJet : That aspect is outside the airline's control, as the airline is merely doing as instructed by the relevant authorities. I would suggest that if an in
79 AyostoLeon : But are they? If the airline checked out that the passenger had a valid passport and/ or visa as outlined in any notices, how can they excuse any "hu
80 RussianJet : Apologies, it appears I misunderstood you. I hadn't realised you were referring to the circumstances of the OP, namely the principle of denying carri
81 AeroWesty : In most countries I'm aware of, one would have to prove malice to take such a claim forward. Otherwise, all the airline would have to do is provide a
82 Post contains images AyostoLeon : No problem. It is hard to follow when I chop between general arguments and specifics. Usually I use the general to highlight the specific. But not al
83 Post contains links Akiestar : Good news: Arjean Marie Belco has arrived in GIG and was met by the Philippine ambassador to Brazil and her host family. Looks like this fear that she
84 mjoelnir : I still think many airline guys here do not take breach of contract serious. You can not state a "reason" for a breach if the reason is not part of t
85 AeroWesty : Malice can also be a civil cause, the basis for punitive damage awards. You can act in a malicious manner without it being criminal.
86 RussianJet : It's always tricky when dealing with questions of nationality and immigration risk for airlines. It's more likely to be prejudice about appearing poo
87 mjoelnir : You need malice for it to become criminal, for the civil case you only need breach of contract you do not have to prove malice, but malice could lead
88 YTZ : Unfortunately, passengers in the developing world don't seem to react harshly enough to such mistreatment (which really is routine by first world airl
89 RussianJet : While you have a point, there is no escaping the fact that some markets inherently pose a greater risk in these matters than others. Doubtless it's l
90 sankaps : But RussianJet, the airlines' role is to verify documents only. Profiling for immigration risk is not something they should take onto themselves -- t
91 RussianJet : I quite agree with you there. As already discussed, I think they should refer to the authorities if they're so suspicious.
92 victrola : I don't see where the airline has any obligation beyond verifying that all documentation is in order. Is this correct or not? If I catch a flight to C
93 andrefranca : it is! But I believe the agents are more concerned about the fines immigration may impose on the carrier if one of the documents are invalid. I've se
94 OB1504 : Lawsuit? On what grounds? Have you ever read a contract of carriage? Perhaps things have changed. With the current economic climate, I'm not surprise
95 Post contains images OB1504 : Please... do you know how many $9 tickets I saw as an agent for NK? Denying boarding to a passenger because of the fare paid is almost as quick a tri
96 Akiestar : You really think 99.9% of passengers read the contract of carriage? If they were to sue, it would be because of that particular incident in question.
97 MillwallSean : Yet again, we cant refer to the contract of carriage. Contracts cant be enforced unless they follow local legislation. Thats why quite a few US airli
98 factsonly : So you have established the fact that a local Malaysian Airport Handling Agent acting on-behalf of KLM (and probably many other airlines that this co
99 mjoelnir : "The airline employee, Mr. Shawa, told the staff of Goodxorg over the phone that there was nothing he could do and that another ticket had to be boug
100 mjoelnir : Even if the agent does not work directly for KLM, he represents KLM in regard to the passenger, so his actions are the actions of KLM. KLM admits to
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