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India Aviation-Unfortunate Lost Revenues  
User currently offlineflyenthu From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 320 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2777 times:
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As an Indian expat living in the US for many years, I have never taken an Indian airliner internationally in the many years of traveling back and forth from the US to India. From the poor reviews of Air India and the limited reach of both Air India and Jet Airways - the two major international Indian carriers to the US- I am left with options like Emirates, Qatar, and Singapore. The passengers for Emirates and Qatar from the US are overwhelmingly to India. I cannot help but notice this! It is like these two airlines are proxy airliners of India from the US. They have done a brilliant job in catering to this market and every time I travel to India, I wonder the enormous amounts of revenue India loses out to EK and QR because of the lack of a decent Indian airliner that could haul passengers from the US to India. It is really unfortunate that India is losing enormous revenues out to other airliners, especially to the ones from the Middle East. BTW, I absolutely love flying in EK, QR, and SQ. No offense to these airlines for doing good business.

20 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2163 posts, RR: 15
Reply 1, posted (1 year 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2734 times:

Quoting flyenthu (Thread starter):
The passengers for Emirates and Qatar from the US are overwhelmingly to India.

Not just India, but also Pakistan, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh, all of which have troubled flag carriers rife with corruption and financial turmoil.

Quoting flyenthu (Thread starter):
It is like these two airlines are proxy airliners of India from the US. They have done a brilliant job in catering to this market

It all has to do with structure: the governments of these countries (UAE, Qatar, Turkey) are overwhelmingly pro-airline. That makes all of the difference.

Quoting flyenthu (Thread starter):
I wonder the enormous amounts of revenue India loses out to EK and QR because of the lack of a decent Indian airliner that could haul passengers from the US to India.

This has and will remain the folly of the century for the Govt. of India: allowing the Middle Eastern carriers to essentially become the top international airlines serving India.

Couple that with the infrastructural investments that are finally taking off at improving Indian airports, and the GCCs basically have playgrounds to work with.

Quoting flyenthu (Thread starter):
No offense to these airlines for doing good business.

To be honest, AI has made investments to improve its on-board product in Y/J/F over the years, and when AI does it right, they really do a good job.

The unfortunate thing is, from an end-to-end experience, it's rarely consistent.



next flights: msp-phx-slc, msp-mdw, ord-sju, sju-dfw-ord, msp-dfw, dfw-phl, phl-msp, jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg
User currently offline747megatop From United States of America, joined May 2007, 716 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2693 times:

I hear you. I had wondered the same and had in fact written a lengthy document that i sent over the AI and the ministry of civil aviation. Whe i wrote that document somewhere in the early 2000s we had 2 primary problems

- Lack of a world class airport in India that can serve as a connecting hub. Connecting through dreaded DEL/BOM was a nightmare and folks would try their best to avoid them at all costs.

- Lack of a world class international airline. When i had written that document; 9W was either not flying internationally or was in preliminary stages of flying internationally.

Both of these have been solved now.

- DEL now has a world class T3 and it has 2 parallel runways. BOM will definitely not be able to serve as a connecting hub inspite of the brand new T2 being constructed because it is highly congested and cannot cope with traffic due to it's cross runway configuration. One thing that could sink the whole thing of DEL being a international hub is the notorious delhi Fog in winter.

- 9W is a matured international carrier and there are other private players like Indigo who are hungry for success.


What else needs to be done

- A visionary task force needs to be established by the govt and a CEO such as Tim Clark of Emirates needs to be poached and given the mission with full powers to establish a DXB like hub at DEL.

- Boeing & Airbus need to be pushed to bid for development of a SCLR (Small Capacity Long Range) aircraft that is highly efficient and can transport a small number of passengers over ultra long distances of 15 hour flights. 100 to 150 passengers (or lesser if possible?); reason i am thinking is that it is easier to fill up a smaller plane than a 200+ seater plane on these routes. With these fleets these routes could be launched
DEL - ORD; DEL - JFK; DEL - EWR; DEL - LAX; DEL - SFO; DEL - LHR; DEL - FRA; DEL - NRT; DEL - SYD; DEL - YVR; DEL - YYZ etc.

- The DEL end can be fed by regular feeder flights from all indian cities in such a way that the feeder flights originate from the international cities in these terminals so that immigration facilities are completed at the point of origin (same should happen on return leg where feeder flight terminates at international terminal in these cities and immigration customs is done at these cities).

- Govt policy to reduce operational costs of any airline choosing to make DEL as their international hub (reduce fuel taxes, reduce landing fees etc.)

I think all this takes political will and a concerted effort on the part of the govt. and a visionary CEO to make this happen. Please feel free to comment, post suggestions and an improved plan.


User currently offlineDTW2HYD From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 1745 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (1 year 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2630 times:

If AI wants to be successful, code share with TK, let TK operate to all international airports in India and just collect commission per seat. If they want more money have a loophole in bilateral agreement to let TK use AI frequencies for cash. It can be a successful airline brand without doing anything.

They can do this until Boeing/Airbus has a SCLR with CASM lower than B787/A350.


User currently offlineVimanav From India, joined Jul 2003, 1515 posts, RR: 14
Reply 4, posted (1 year 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2587 times:

Aviation contributes 28% to the GDP of Dubai. So its but natural that the state would back it to the hilt to ensure they have a very strong national carrier.

Its a shame that our Government with its still-steeped-in-socialism thinking, cannot seem to understand that Aviation is a driver of growth and not just the purview of the rich and an industry to be taxed to death along with alcohol and tobacco (which probably deserve to be).

If GOI supporter Aviation the way DXB supports, India would be the Aviation capital of the world.

brgds//Vimanav



Sarfaroshi kii tamannaa ab hamaare dil mein hai, Dekhnaa hai zor kitnaa baazu-e-qaatil mein hai
User currently offline747megatop From United States of America, joined May 2007, 716 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2537 times:

Quoting Vimanav (Reply 4):
Aviation contributes 28% to the GDP of Dubai. So its but natural that the state would back it to the hilt to ensure they have a very strong national carrier.

Its a shame that our Government with its still-steeped-in-socialism thinking, cannot seem to understand that Aviation is a driver of growth and not just the purview of the rich and an industry to be taxed to death along with alcohol and tobacco (which probably deserve to be).

If GOI supporter Aviation the way DXB supports, India would be the Aviation capital of the world.

brgds//Vimanav

Agreed. With India being in the drivers seat we can have Boeing & Airbus plus other countries eating out of their hand and can actually dictate what others need to do. In fact the TK proposition sounds very interesting and in fact a winner takes all proposition can be floated to Star Alliance or Sky Team.

Establish a joint venture with one of the alliances over one of their hubs (FRA or CDG or AMS). The deal can be that an airline from India gets exclusive access to fly feeder flights from all indian cities to that hub and the partner then flies all that traffic onwards to the final destination. With a billion people and explosive growth in middle class that can afford to fly i think this is an opportunity that should not be lost. If they do this then i think there will be a line of people waiting to shake hands on this proposal. I don't think India has anything to fear from Dubai or Emriates in terms of trade retalation since India is actually a trade behemoth..and moreove it is not like Dubai is sitting on oil.

Or the other option is - to Ideally they should open up a full fledged hub in DEL like i stated 3 posts previously, with the only difference being that it should be done in partnership with a European AND American airline to counter the Middle Eastern big 4. With this partnership; the partners (Indian and Foreign) will have full flexibility and open skies and operate any metal(foreign or indian) to any city at any frequency on any aircraft type. Govt should realize that a full fledged hub translates to more jobs (trickle down effect...aircraft maintenance, catering etc.). If this proposition does not attract the European & American partners then we shold market it to the Saudis or Russians perhaps in exchange for cheaper oil.

The problem is that the Govt does not treat the travel needs of the exploding middle class and the 1 billion population as a resource rich asset for which airlines have to compete. The indian govt seems to be handing this on a platter to the Middle East big 3 recently and in the past have handed it to SQ, LH, BA etc. on a platter. I am sure EU will definitely be willing to listen since they are also suffering from the middle east big 3. If the indian govt had woken up earlier for example the QF & EK deal could actually have been signed between 9W and QF with DEL T3 being the transfer hub and then extending that partnership by pulling in the BA/AA combine with LHR acting as the other hub in tandem for North American traffic.

Umpteen possibilities but ZERO action. Naresh Goyal and MOCA are you reading this thread? Wonder why you are handing it on a platter to Jetihad with the deal between 9W and EY.


User currently offlinegoacom From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 95 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2520 times:

Step 1: shut down Air India ... or at least privatize it!

User currently offlineSonomaFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1704 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2504 times:
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Quoting 747megatop (Reply 2):
- Boeing & Airbus need to be pushed to bid for development of a SCLR (Small Capacity Long Range) aircraft that is highly efficient and can transport a small number of passengers over ultra long distances of 15 hour flights. 100 to 150 passengers (or lesser if possible?); reason i am thinking is that it is easier to fill up a smaller plane than a 200+ seater plane on these routes. With these fleets these routes could be launched
DEL - ORD; DEL - JFK; DEL - EWR; DEL - LAX; DEL - SFO; DEL - LHR; DEL - FRA; DEL - NRT; DEL - SYD; DEL - YVR; DEL - YYZ etc.

AI bought the 788 which isn't far off in tht size to which you refer. There isn't a sufficient market for a SCLR otherwise one or both of the a/c companies would've developed one. It would essentially be a clean sheet design given the range requirements are a lot more than the 32x or 73x can handle.


User currently offlineDTW2HYD From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 1745 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (1 year 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2476 times:

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 7):
AI bought the 788 which isn't far off in tht size to which you refer.

Not really, AI B788s have 256 seats. I have to say AI B788s are well configured for the market they serve unlike their B77Xs. Next generation SCLR should have 200 Pax in High Density, should be long haul(may be ULH) and have CASM less than or better than B787/A350. Otherwise only successful international airliners will be ME3,TK and LH. Every one else can just operate domestic flights.


User currently offline747megatop From United States of America, joined May 2007, 716 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2380 times:

Ok folks, i typed out a detailed word document and put my thoughts on it. Can't figure out how to upload a word document here so, attempting to cut and paste and hopefully the formatting won't get screwed up. Bottom line with the thoughts i penned are that there are 4 options. India being in the driver's seat has to treat the huge passenger base as an asset and have foreign govts and airlines compete with each other for the action by dangling a carrot (carrot being the options). Here we go -


Option 1 (DEL hub with new airline alliance let's say ONEGlobe. This is the most preferred option that Govt of India and 9W/AI combine should be shooting for). We can shutdown AI gradually but let's keep it in the mix for now

Main partners -
1) AA/DL/UA (we need one American airline).
2) BA/AF-KLM/LH (we need one European airline).
3) QF/VA (we definitely need one Australian partner).
4) 9W and AI (I would ideally not include AI, but I put it here because any worthwhile deal will not be possible without making the Indian Govt happy, which means include AI   ).

Potential combinations of the partners
1) AA,BA,QF and 9W-AI
Or
2) DL,AF-KLM,VA and 9W-AI
Or
3) UA,LH,QF/VA(only one Australian partner is needed) and 9W-AI

Potential route network?

DEL-SFO,DEL-SFO,DEL-SFO,DEL-ORD,DEL-DEL-JFK,DEL-EWR,DEL-IAH,DEL-LAX," target="_blank">http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=DEL-SFO...Z,DEL-JFK,DEL-EWR,DEL-IAH,DEL-LAX, DEL-DFW,DEL-MIA,DEL-YVR,MAA-DEL,BLR-DEL,MAA-DEL,CCU-DEL,JAI-DEL,PNQ-DEL,DEL-SEA,DEL-SYD,DEL-MEL,DEL-ADL,DEL-PER,DEL-SIN,DEL-KUL,DEL-SVO,DEL-MXP,DEL-LHR,DEL-FRA,DEL-CDG,DEL-ZRH,DEL-GVA,DEL-BKK,DEL-DXB,DEL-IST,DEL-JNB,DEL-CPT,DEL-NRT,DEL-ICN,DEL-PEK,DEL-PVG

if above link does not work then open the great circle mapper http://www.gcmap.com/mapui and paste the following routing into the text box -

DEL-SFO,DEL-SFO,DEL-SFO,DEL-ORD,DEL-DEL-JFK,DEL-EWR,DEL-IAH,DEL-LAX, DEL-DFW,DEL-MIA,DEL-YVR,MAA-DEL,BLR-DEL,MAA-DEL,CCU-DEL,JAI-DEL,PNQ-DEL,DEL-SEA,DEL-SYD,DEL-MEL,DEL-ADL,DEL-PER,DEL-SIN,DEL-KUL,DEL-SVO,DEL-MXP,DEL-LHR,DEL-FRA,DEL-CDG,DEL-ZRH,DEL-GVA,DEL-BKK,DEL-DXB,DEL-IST,DEL-JNB,DEL-CPT,DEL-NRT,DEL-ICN,DEL-PEK,DEL-PVG

How will this alliance work ?
- US, India already have open skies. Between the Indian, US and European carriers of the alliance the airlines should be allowed to operate any number of flights on any metal between DEL and North America. Exact details and profit sharing is upto the airlines how they slice and dice it amongst themselves. Having an American and European airlines in the partnership is key so that both (especially the European partner) are happy and not having objections of losing business because of non stop flights bypassing European hubs.
- Secondly, solving multiple problems with one stone, a similar open skies and flights on any metal policy can be applied to the Australia - Europe leg. DEL can leverage it's geographical position advantage to provide hub connectivity from multiple European cities to multiple Australian and South east Asian cities. QF is already engaged with EK, so if they can%u2019t be wooed maybe VA can be pulled in?
- Spill over traffic will still go through the partner airline's European hub for India to US traffic AND australia to Europe traffic, thereby not losing business to Middle Eastern carriers.

How to market this concept and make it work?
Facts we know :
- The Middle Eastern big 3 (EK,EY and QR) are formidable and making deep inroads into the legacy European, American and almost all the Indian carriers causing loss of sleep to those airlines.
- India is providing a huge significant passenger base to all airlines (Middle Eastern, European, SQ etc.) . This huge passenger base (that too growing at an exponential rate) in the fastest growing airline market other than China needs to be used as an asset/resource by the Indian Govt and other Indian air carriers, access to which has to be competed for by foreign airlines & govts without handing it to them on a platter.

Marketing it and having various govts (wherever involved) & airlines compete to grab the deal ->
- So, this concept needs to be marketed by the Indian Govt & Indian carriers as a team to each of the 3 combinations outlined in the %u201Cpotential combination of partners%u201D section saying that if you don%u2019t like our proposal we will take out proposal to the other competing partner combinations. If all of the partner combinations under %u201Coption 1%u201D can%u2019t make this work then we will have to tell them that we will market the concept to the other options outlined further below (Option 3 %u2013 rope in TK, IST as hub, feeder flights from all Indian cities exclusively by Indian carriers; Option 4 %u2013 of course handshake with the middle easter carriers like what 9W has done with EY. Option 2 and Option 3 are detailed further down in the document.)
- The key is to have lowest cost of operation, so here are just some thoughts (other experts will have to weigh in as I am no exper)-
o Have highly efficient smallest capacity available aircraft capable of lying long haul routes like 787s fly the long haul routes?
o Anything within 5 or 6 hour range be flown by extended range 737s ?
o Govt should offer favourable concessions in landing charges and fuel taxes to this alliance.

Option 2 (European scissor hub) %u2013 One of the European airports as hub and partnership with the european carrier based out of that hub. Basically the scissor hub concept that 9W was trying to standup in BRU and is now trying to port to AMS or MUC.
- 9W and AI run feeder services on 787s to that European hub exclusively (or at least dictate that they will fly 75 to 80% of the flights). 9W and AI also run transatlantic services. Slice and dice profit accordingly.
- Negotiate for favourable vis rules for Indian citizens (no transit visa requirement for example if continuing onto USA/Canada/South America). Right now it%u2019s a hassle which is why many Indians prefer to take the middle eastern carriers.
Route network of such a European scissor hub (used LHR as sample) -
LHR-SFO,LHR-ORD,LHR-LHR-JFK,LHR-EWR,LHR-IAH,LHR-LAX,LHR-DFW,LHR-MIA,LHR-YVR,LHR" target="_blank">http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=LHR-SFO...HR-LAX,LHR-DFW,LHR-MIA,LHR-YVR,LHR - MAA,LHR - BLR,LHR-CCU,LHR -JAI,LHR- PNQ,LHR-SEA,LHR-MXP,DEL-LHR,LHR-FRA,LHR-CDG,LHR-ZRH,LHR-GVA

if above link does not work then open http://www.gcmap.com/mapui and paste the following routing in that text box

LHR-SFO,LHR-ORD,LHR-LHR-JFK,LHR-EWR,LHR-IAH,LHR-LAX,LHR-DFW,LHR-MIA,LHR-YVR,LHR - MAA,LHR - BLR,LHR-CCU,LHR -JAI,LHR- PNQ,LHR-SEA,LHR-MXP,DEL-LHR,LHR-FRA,LHR-CDG,LHR-ZRH,LHR-GVA

Marketing?
Of course, in marketing Option 2, there is not much leverage by the Indian Govt and 9W/AI; so at best they can approach other competing European Hubs & Carriers OR approach one TK or the middle eastern carriers.

Option 3 (IST as hub with TK as equal partner)
9W and AI Run services to IST and beyond. Slice and dice metal and profits with TK. India should push for 60% profits at the very least for giving access to Indian market.
Potential route map
IST-SFO,IST-ORD,IST-IST-JFK,IST-EWR,IST-IAH,IST-LAX,IST-DFW,IST-MIA,IST-YVR,IST" target="_blank">http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=IST-SFO...ST-LAX,IST-DFW,IST-MIA,IST-YVR,IST - MAA,IST - BLR,IST-CCU,IST -JAI,IST- PNQ,IST-SEA,IST-MXP,DEL-IST,IST-FRA,IST-CDG,IST-ZRH,IST-GVA

if above link does not work then open http://www.gcmap.com/mapui and place the following routing in that text box IST-SFO,IST-ORD,IST-IST-JFK,IST-EWR,IST-IAH,IST-LAX,IST-DFW,IST-MIA,IST-YVR,IST - MAA,IST - BLR,IST-CCU,IST -JAI,IST- PNQ,IST-SEA,IST-MXP,DEL-IST,IST-FRA,IST-CDG,IST-ZRH,IST-GVA



Option 4 (least preferred)
This option is of course to shake hands with EK/EY/QR or maybe in fact SV.

[Edited 2013-07-23 17:19:54]

[Edited 2013-07-23 17:24:55]

[Edited 2013-07-23 17:27:48]

[Edited 2013-07-23 17:44:05]

[Edited 2013-07-23 17:47:11]

User currently offlineVTORD From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 112 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2297 times:

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 9):
Option 1
Quoting 747megatop (Reply 9):
1) AA/DL/UA (we need one American airline).

Just plugged in your routes on GCMap and wondering aloud it seems that majority of UA hubs boast of strong Indian population / presence: ORD, EWR, IAH (+oil traffic), IAD (diplomatic traffic), SFO (+silicon valley), so looks like UA would be a first preference for your Option 1? And by that yard stick makes LH the carrier of choice in bullet point #2.

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 9):
not be possible without making the Indian Govt happy, which means include AI

Agreed. But looks like 9W by way of Jetihad is cozying up to Sky Team so why not AI? I really don't think the 9W-EY deal is going to fall through inspite of new issues that surface every day. As blraviation has commented in the other thread, GoI needs to concentrate on creating a favorable environment for civil aviation and get the hell out of running an airline! Divest AI to a private party that will run it like a business and not the politicos' private limousine service.

Quoting Vimanav (Reply 4):
Aviation contributes 28% to the GDP of Dubai.

The way they have built themselves around aviation is simply amazing. If you have ever lived in DXB, you would know what I am talking about.

Quoting Vimanav (Reply 4):
If GOI supporter Aviation the way DXB supports,

True. I may be emphasizing a minor point here, the GoI is also late in emulating the likes of DXB in airport infrastructure providing a smooth / enjoyable transit experience. I feel that is important to developing your self as a hub specially if you are say AI and want to provide West-to-East connectivity through DEL as a hub. Last two times I was in BOM, I thought there was a massive improvement in this experience but it came years after and still can be better.



Get your facts first. Then you may distort them as you like.
User currently offline747megatop From United States of America, joined May 2007, 716 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2248 times:

Quoting VTORD (Reply 10):
Agreed. But looks like 9W by way of Jetihad is cozying up to Sky Team so why not AI? I really don't think the 9W-EY deal is going to fall through inspite of new issues that surface every day. As blraviation has commented in the other thread, GoI needs to concentrate on creating a favorable environment for civil aviation and get the hell out of running an airline! Divest AI to a private party that will run it like a business and not the politicos' private limousine service.

Unfortunately GOI does not seem to have the courage do privatize AI for some reason. If AI can be fully privatized and be run by a private party like a business then nothing like it. But, I doubt that will happen. The other problem is that if it is included in this deal then it could sink the whole thing and whatever little hope of making it work would go down the drain. Which is why 9W (and other players like Indigo) is absolutely needed. Wish someone could make Etihad swap 9W with AI ha ha ha LoL .


User currently onlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12894 posts, RR: 100
Reply 12, posted (1 year 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2235 times:
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I find it interesting that the first solution is to blame the successful airlines. During the bubble I had friends pulling *thousands* of jobs out of India as there just were not enough J class seats available with good connections for their audit teams. Once the mid-east carriers quotas were expanded, they started hiring more outsourcing positions within India.

Some is the hubbing. The LAX-DXB flight is not just carrying passengers to India. I know of passengers going to Africa or other mid-East destinations who book the flight. Why hasn't India changed some of the rules and improved the infrastructure so that the US to India flights have far better connection opportunities. Connections allow for great seasonal flexibility.

For the USA, it is an open skies agreement. In other words, there is no limit on what AI and 9W do other than the economics. But for many of these flights, hubbing is required. EK/QR/EY have set the standard. It is for the Indian airlines to provide a superior experience.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 1):
This has and will remain the folly of the century for the Govt. of India: allowing the Middle Eastern carriers to essentially become the top international airlines serving India.

Which helped enable quite a bit of business growth in India.

The mid-east airlines are *easily* bypassed. Their only natural advantage is being a hair closer on flights to the USA.

What should be first done is better regional hubbing. Why isn't MAA a major hub between Indonesia/Malaysia/Thailand and India as well as Europe? Its exceptionally well located for such a role. Build DXB style terminals (indoor shopping malls) to seperate customers from their money on the long flights... Put in nice (but not extravagant) restaurants, bars, and lounges with the intent to separate passengers from their funds.

But the experience must be as good as or better than the mid-east hubs. In other words, 115 minute connection times must leave plenty of time for said shopping. Concourses with enough room to move around but not so overbuilt that they feel like ghost towns...

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 2):
- Lack of a world class airport in India that can serve as a connecting hub. Connecting through dreaded DEL/BOM was a nightmare and folks would try their best to avoid them at all costs.

I never understood why India wasn't watching what was being done with other world class facilities. The location is ideal. But... the hubbing must meet global standards (ease, security, shopping, time for transfers, accommodation of other languages, and in terminal hotels).

When did Heathrow add the shopping? Late 1980s IIRC?   

Quoting Vimanav (Reply 4):
Its a shame that our Government with its still-steeped-in-socialism thinking, cannot seem to understand that Aviation is a driver of growth and not just the purview of the rich and an industry to be taxed to death along with alcohol and tobacco (which probably deserve to be).

It can be a money source. Just do it via shopping and other ancillary services rather than jet fuel taxes...

Quoting goacom (Reply 6):
Step 1: shut down Air India ... or at least privatize it!

I doubt that privatization will happen. I personally think the EY/9W deal was accepting the only way to fix AI is to force them to compete at a higher level and either sink or swim.


LIghtsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offline747megatop From United States of America, joined May 2007, 716 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2204 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 12):
I never understood why India wasn't watching what was being done with other world class facilities. The location is ideal. But... the hubbing must meet global standards (ease, security, shopping, time for transfers, accommodation of other languages, and in terminal hotels).

Socialist mindset combined with a corrupt and rotten government steeped in beauracracy.


User currently offline747megatop From United States of America, joined May 2007, 716 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2130 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 12):
I find it interesting that the first solution is to blame the successful airlines. .

From what I understand the posts in this thread were doing the opposite - they are blaming the lack of vision and competence of the Indian govt.  . In fact the OP goes on to state this explicitly in the last sentence - " I absolutely love flying in EK, QR, and SQ. No offense to these airlines for doing good business.
"

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 12):
Why hasn't India changed some of the rules and improved the infrastructure so that the US to India flights have far better connection opportunities.

This is fast changing. In the span of less than 10 years India has new airports from the ground up in HYD & BLR. World class new terminals in CCU, MAA, DEL (T3 is absolutely amazing) and an upcoming new terminal in BOM(T2). The problem is that other than DEL the other airport terminals have been designed to be just O&D terminals without a vision for serving international - to - international transfer.
And, yes, India has to change the rules, agree 100%, which is what I have outlined in my earlier post in my thread.


User currently onlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12894 posts, RR: 100
Reply 15, posted (1 year 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2018 times:
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Quoting 747megatop (Reply 14):
This is fast changing. In the span of less than 10 years India has new airports from the ground up in HYD & BLR. World class new terminals in CCU, MAA, DEL (T3 is absolutely amazing) and an upcoming new terminal in BOM(T2). The problem is that other than DEL the other airport terminals have been designed to be just O&D terminals without a vision for serving international - to - international transfer.

Its better than it was. But do recall EK only started to become big in 2003. In one decade far more has been done at DXB than any one Indian airport.

Let's take BLR and HYD as examples. I was incredibly excited to hear about those airports. And then... I started hearing about the ground transportation issues... A hub does best with high O&D to 'pre-fill' about half of those international connections. Although, I think MAA has the most potential for the next 5 to 7 years...

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 14):
India has to change the rules, agree 100%, which is what I have outlined in my earlier post in my thread.

We agree, but will they? International to International as well as International to domestic connections must become seamless. Before someone mentions the US policies, know that I believe the US policies are driving away connecting passengers.

The 787/A350 and NEO/MAX/C-series will present tremendous hub-bypass but also hubbing opportunities. If India builds up a series of hubs (the population would justify 3 to 4), then they will have the direct connections to bypass many other hubs (including the mid-east hubs). A good hub generates a tremendous number of P2P connections that are very difficult to challenge. But I feel that with India we'll always be talking the potential instead of the execution.

I think the mid-East hubs would have been insignificant if Europe and India had not constrained hubbing with infrastructure and policy.   Sigh.... Now that the mid-East hubs are established, it will be interesting to see what India does.


Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineDTW2HYD From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 1745 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (1 year 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2003 times:

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 14):
T3 is absolutely amazing

Somehow I thought T3 is combination of 60's European Airport and an American Mall with a touch of Walmart (Duty Free checkout counters). I may be wrong.


User currently offline747megatop From United States of America, joined May 2007, 716 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 1901 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 15):
Let's take BLR and HYD as examples. I was incredibly excited to hear about those airports. And then... I started hearing about the ground transportation issues...

Very true regarding ground transportation issues. That is also changing albeit slowly. DEL T3 has a train station now. BOM, MAA have active plans for that and if i am not mistaken contruction is already going on. BLR has it on the radar but no concrete plan and dates on execution yet (should have been part of the green field airport plans to begin with IMO). Not sure about HYD. But none of these are on the lines of what is there for example in LHR(bus terminal, tube and heathrow express) or CDG(has access to high speed intercity trains); although much better than what is there here at LAX  .

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 15):

We agree, but will they

Ha ha ha. Knowing them, the answer is no. They will continue to slumber and nothing may happen. But who knows? They may indeed surprise us.

[Edited 2013-07-24 11:13:54]

[Edited 2013-07-24 11:15:05]

[Edited 2013-07-24 11:15:55]

User currently offline747megatop From United States of America, joined May 2007, 716 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 1879 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 12):
I never understood why India wasn't watching what was being done with other world class facilities. The location is ideal

Forget India, on further deliberation i realized that the Russians have also slept through this boom and failed to capitalize on some of the action. In addition to the 4 alternatives i suggested there is another option 5 - partnering with the Russians and making SVO as the base.

Plug this into the great circle mapper - SVO-SFO,SVO-ORD,SVO-YYZ,SVO-JFK,SVO-EWR,SVO-IAH,SVO-LAX,SVO-DFW,SVO-MIA,SVO-YVR,SVO-MAA,SVO-BLR,SVO-CCU,SVO-JAI,SVO- PNQ,SVO-SEA,SVO-MXP,DEL-SVO,SVO-FRA,SVO-CDG,SVO-ZRH,SVO-GVA,SVO-DXB,SVO-AUH,SVO-MCT,IST-SVO,SVO-HKG,SVO-NRT,BKK-SVO,SIN-SVO,SVO-CMB,SVO-IST,SVO-KHI,SVO-LHE,SVO-DEN,SVO-DTW

In fact SVO as a hub for the proposal earlier in this thread makes most sense as it is kind of central to all major markets that matter. Whichever way you look at it SVO as hub or DEL as hub it becomes more and more clear how the Middle Eastern govts. and carriers have done a brilliant job considering the fact that they do not have that big an advantage geographically compared to SVO or DEL.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31667 posts, RR: 56
Reply 19, posted (1 year 6 hours ago) and read 1666 times:

Someone in charge needs to change the rules....and get things in the country organised to favour local Aviation.


Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineGr8circle From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 3097 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (12 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1562 times:

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 11):
Unfortunately GOI does not seem to have the courage do privatize AI for some reason

I think you've got it wrong....if they wanted to, there's no shortage of "courage"....there are quite a few examples of privatisation in India in other sectors of the economy, as well as opening up protected sectors to competition.......the problem is that they don't want to privatise AI at all.....the govt is quite happy to continue keeping AI as a public sector company, the way it's been for the last 60 odd years...... that mindset has to change......


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