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EK Eyes UK US Routes  
User currently offlineUAEflyer From United Arab Emirates, joined Nov 2006, 1084 posts, RR: 1
Posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 24257 times:

Emirates want to put leg in one of the busiest routes in the world, US UK route, according to EK they want to fly from the northern part of the UK.

http://www.arabianbusiness.com/emira...s-uk-us-direct-flights-510527.html

162 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5586 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 24276 times:

This has been something of an open secret for quite some time. I wonder if anything will come of it...


Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineIndianicWorld From Australia, joined Jun 2001, 2981 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 23751 times:

They are starting MXP-JFK so I can see this as the next step in their offering.

Having tried from HAM originally and failed, it will be interesting to see how this goes.

MAN or NCL to the US would be interesting options.


User currently online1400mph From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2013, 1009 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 23633 times:
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I read about this yesterday and believe it or not I actually think it's a great idea.

User currently offlineUAEflyer From United Arab Emirates, joined Nov 2006, 1084 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 23565 times:

I believe this will be a lucrative route if they started from BHX, GLA, and MAN, especially with the A380 which is an attractive aircraft for many

User currently offlineAS737MAX From United States of America, joined Mar 2013, 323 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 23451 times:

Forgive me if i'm missing the point, but so these flights would be for example:
DXB-BHX-JFK
DXB-GLA-JFK
DXB-MAN-JFK
So these flights would just be added because EK has the capacity to fly them? So it's just Dubai-Under Utilized British airport-Existing United States destination? These flights seem a little odd, my opinion though.



40 Flights/39,010 Miles Flown
User currently offlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21532 posts, RR: 59
Reply 6, posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 23316 times:

Does EK have unlimited fifth freedom rights from the UK to the US? Once EK starts destroying the UA, AA and DL yields from hubs to smaller UK/EU airports, see how long it takes for the US to rescind Open Skies with Dubai.


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5586 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 23317 times:

Quoting AS737MAX (Reply 5):
So these flights would just be added because EK has the capacity to fly them?



Yes and no. EK's growth IS going to be curtailed over the next 2 years due to DXB runway works.

Call me crazy, but I think that this is also about building the value proposition of Emirates (and Skywards Frequent Flyer) to draw in more traffic. Take MAN, where EK have a pretty loyal following due to little in the way of non-stop competition. My mothers' employer is a Manchester based company with significant operations in HK and PRC. Guess which airline the executives buzz around on? In paid F to boot.

If they were to launch MAN-JFK then that could help to cement them as the go-to longhaul airline in the region: one-stop to the World via DXB, plus they can also get you to the global financial hub, and beyond to the entire United States with B6.

That is quite a pretty valuable network, and could very attractive to business travellers.

This wouldn't work at LHR due to the myriad of non-stop options (in both directions) plus the fact that EK are smart enough to know that there is bats chance in hell that BA wouldn't throw everything at the City to keep the corporates locked in. That's why I think that it would only prove effective in relatively underserved markets (such as MXP and MAN)

Quoting AS737MAX (Reply 5):
So it's just Dubai-Under Utilized British airport-Existing United States destination?

Possibly, I've heard a rumor of DXB-MAN-BOS, believe it all or not. Probably nothing to it, but en-route traffic could help build the economic case for launching a new route which might not currently have sufficient demand to the Gulf and South Asia to warrant a non-stop service (don't forget that EK rarely launch a route at sub-daily frequency - in most markets they would rather not launch at all than fly 3 weekly)



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineGCT64 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2007, 1398 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 23280 times:

Quoting AS737MAX (Reply 5):
So these flights would just be added because EK has the capacity to fly them? So it's just Dubai-Under Utilized British airport-Existing United States destination? These flights seem a little odd, my opinion though.

EK already operates, for example, DXB-GLA. Under the aegis of operating DXB-GLA-JFK, what will actually happen is that the plane load of pax arriving in GLA from DXB will disembark, a new plane load of pax will embark and EK will, effectively, be operating a GLA-JFK flight.

If you believe in a parochial approach to air transport then you probably think this is a "bad thing" (and the flight should only be flown by US or UK airlines).

If you believe that air transport should be regarded as a business like any other, without artificial barriers, then you probably think an EK A380 from GLA to JFK is a "good thing" for consumers (and Scotland).

All depends on your perspective .....



Flown in: A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,A388,BA11,BU31,B190, B461,B462,(..51 types..),VC10,WESX
User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5586 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 23181 times:

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 6):
Once EK starts destroying the UA, AA and DL yields from hubs to smaller UK/EU airports, see how long it takes for the US to rescind Open Skies with Dubai.

Sorry, not happening. There are much broader National Security implications about harming relations with the UAE than protecting Delta.

What the USA might do, however, is simply refuse them fifth freedom routes if the airlines lobby loud enough (I honestly have no idea what the relevant Open Skies bilaterals say about this)



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineoly720man From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 6740 posts, RR: 11
Reply 10, posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 23183 times:

Not discounting the other Northern airports.......

Historically, transatlantic flights from MAN have been predominantly leisure rather than expensive seats so it would be interesting to see if EK can generate a market there.

With flights to JFK, the only competition is an AA752 which was full the last couple of times I was on it. Whether a 77X could fill enough seats is another matter. Certainly an A380 would be wasted.

Same for EWR with a daily UA752.

Would a West coast flight work? It's one hole in the MAN list of destinations.

Any flight like this is probably not going to get many pax flying the whole route when there's more than likely a direct service to/from DXB (unless it's cheaper) and it would be an additional 2 or 3 hrs on a flight of over 12hrs (DXB-JFK, for example), so I'd expect each leg would have to be considered as an individual flight. EK are looking to go 4x day from MAN so there's no problem there. Would EK have to look at some sort of mini alliance(s) to increase connections at MAN should they go transatlantic? MAN doesn't lack connections to most of Europe which is a major benefit if they were going to have MAN as a mini-hub, for want of a better expression.



wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
User currently offlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21532 posts, RR: 59
Reply 11, posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 22931 times:

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 9):
Sorry, not happening. There are much broader National Security implications about harming relations with the UAE than protecting Delta.

Well, Dubai Ports has had completely legal deals partially or fully blocked.

If EK starts running A380s from the UK it will impact our national carriers' ability to run their hub-to-point system, greatly harming the US market place. We are so worried about fairness when it comes to HND, Mexico and South America rights, we will be just as worried when EK starts doing to US airlines what it is doing around the world. They can't do it directly from DXB, but if you think of it like a game of RISK and they first conquer the EU and then use that stronghold to attack North America, we will respond.

We are a pretty protectionist nation when it comes down to it. In aviation like to create open sky situations when we don't think it can harm us, or it will be mutually beneficial. The Open Skies treaty with Dubai was signed with short sight, as we didn't think it could harm us, and it surely isn't mutually beneficial. The treaty vetters likely thought EK would be like another SQ, flying a few routes to the USA via waypoints to simply connect the US and the UAE financially.

SQ never really competed directly with US carriers on a large scale, and took as much traffic away from foreign airlines than domestically based ones. And PA flew to SIN with SPs so we had a direct interest in access to SQ has a destination. But EK flying GLA or HAM or MAN to New York doesn't harm foreign carriers. It directly impacts domestic carriers and would likely put some of those routes to pasture. And it has nothing to do about traffic to Dubai, as EK is flying many US routes directly to Dubai and will add more.

Canada was more far sighted when it came to EK in that respect.

[Edited 2013-07-24 02:11:50]

[Edited 2013-07-24 02:15:16]


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineavek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4387 posts, RR: 19
Reply 12, posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 22796 times:

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 11):
We are a pretty protectionist nation when it comes down to it.

True...and for the most part, we've managed to leverage the use of Open Skies deals to confer a protectionist benefit upon our carriers, which is what ultimately quarantines the impact of Emirates on the USA market.

United and Delta will be just fine if EK decides to flood the USA-UK market with unnneeded widebody capcity -- they have strong hubs and consumer bases to leverage, while EK will struggle in finding a sustainable traffic mix (which is what ultimately led to the demise of the JFK-HAM-DXB flight).



Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlineby738 From Tonga, joined Sep 2000, 2326 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 22599 times:

There would never be enough pax to fill an A380 from MAN to BOS never mind GLA-JFK, they can barely support year round daily on smaller aircraft. The only way would be freedom rights to pick up extra enroute but why on earth would DXB pax bound for US want a double drop when they could choose to fly direct.

User currently offlineluckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 2172 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 22233 times:

Quoting UAEflyer (Reply 4):
I believe this will be a lucrative route if they started from BHX, GLA, and MAN, especially with the A380 which is an attractive aircraft for many

They won't be able to fill it without a hub operation on either end, which will never happen because as soon as they get big enough to actually implement such a system governments will be imposing restrictions left and right.


User currently offlineDanfearn77 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2008, 1813 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 21943 times:

MAN-JFK with EK was rumoured for a long while before the flight eventually went to MXP. As others have said EK are in a strong position at MAN and it won't be long before the evening flight is up gauged to an A380 and I suspect a 4th daily will follow at some point. This could be that 4th flight.


Eagles may soar high, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines!
User currently offlinebehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4785 posts, RR: 43
Reply 16, posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 21814 times:

There was a UK CAA report published in 2002 that stated that EK was very keen on flying to Houston via Manchester at that time with a B777-200ER.

For UK-USA, EK should focus out of MAN and the routes that have the highest demand are as follows:

MCO 340,000 (yes i know low yielding etc etc)
NYC 210,000
LAS 87,000 (same as MCO low yielding)
LAX 45,000
SFO 40,000
ORD 40,000
MIA 35,000
BOS 31,000
PHL 25,000
IAH 15,000

BHX-USA is useless and should not even be looked at !

Now if I was in EK and given a blank cheque, the next trans-atlantic I would launch is PARIS-LOS ANGELES daily with an A380 as only AF operates this sector nonstop on a double daily basis and it can use with some much needed direct competition which EK can effectively provide with a daily A380 product. Market size CDG-LAX is 340,000 passengers with lots of high yielding premium pax ! FYI EK does have 5th freedom traffic rights between France and USA so no issues here bilaterally as well.


User currently offlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3591 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 21729 times:

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 6):
Does EK have unlimited fifth freedom rights from the UK to the US? Once EK starts destroying the UA, AA and DL yields from hubs to smaller UK/EU airports, see how long it takes for the US to rescind Open Skies with Dubai.

If you read the original article it quickly becomes clear that EK don't hold the necessary rights

“We do hold some rights out of the regions, so I would never say never. One of the things we are keen to say to the Davies Commission [UK Airports Commission], to relieve pressure on the south-east, is why don’t we make all the regional airports completely open skies,

My assumption is that the rights they hold are the ones they presently utilise to fly directly to DXB, hence the idea of making an open skies submission to the Davies commission.

“Emirates could flood the North Atlantic with swathes of Airbus A380s and 777-300ERs out of places like Birmingham and Manchester, two cities which are bursting with pent up passenger demand, tempered only by the lack of long haul airlines operating there, particularly for Birmingham,” he said, adding that if the Dubai carrier goes through with the plan “British Airways and Virgin Atlantic will be the big losers.”

The above quote is hilarious to say the least, if there were such a pent up passenger demand BA, VS and their US counterparts have surely been missing a huge potential profit for decades, plus why did BD fail in their MAN service across the Atlantic ? Why are the US carriers sending 752's when they should have been sending 744's ? Lastly unless the pricing was predatory to the extent that passengers would be willing to travel from the South East up to MAN or BHX the big losers would be the US carriers presently on these routes, the effect on BA and VS would be minimal.


User currently onlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8383 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 21469 times:

I've been saying this for a long time and some people refused to accept it. EK's business plan of connecting every 2 cities with 1 stop has big limitations and if they want to continue to grow as an airline they have no choice but to start flying 5th freedom routes. DXB may be in the center of the world but it's not in the center of the airline world because there is no such thing. Look at the biggest air markets and you quickly realize how far off DXB really is. TATL, TPAC, Asia, EU-Africa, Americas. That leaves 2 good makets only: EU-Asia/Australia, Asia-Africa.

User currently offlineMIflyer12 From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 1036 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 21457 times:

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 11):
We are a pretty protectionist nation when it comes down to it. In aviation like to create open sky situations when we don't think it can harm us, or it will be mutually beneficial. The Open Skies treaty with Dubai was signed with short sight, as we didn't think it could harm us, and it surely isn't mutually beneficial. The treaty vetters likely thought EK would be like another SQ, flying a few routes to the USA via waypoints to simply connect the US and the UAE financially.

It depends on whether one thinks government regulation and treaties should focus on creating restricted markets to drive monopoly profits, or to enhance consumer gains. There are lots of ways the U.S. is protectionist but it is an unquestioned leader in airline deregulation, both in domestic dereg and in pursuing Open Skies treaties.


User currently offlinegilesdavies From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 3029 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 21356 times:

How could this work, especially from a northern airport?

As Emirates have no active codeshares, to feed traffic through a US Hub, to allow passengers to fly on to other destinations in the USA, I cannot see this working...

The only reason the likes of US, UA, AA and DL make MAN work is that they can feed traffic through their respected hubs! Even UA's MAN-EWR route is heavily reliant on connecting traffic and there is not enough O&D traffic just for the NYC region. Also this route, only seems to be able to support a 757.

BA demonstrated this could not work, when they tried MAN-JFK and they could offer onward connection with AA.

So I find it farcical how people are mentioning they could operate see an A380 operating between MAN and the USA!

I still don't really see a market, but MAN has been crying out for a link to the West Coast of the USA... Emirates have also been keen to operate the A380 on their DXB-LAX route, but I think it struggles range wise, so just maybe MAN could be used as a Technical stop on the route to refuel and maybe they could offer 10-20% of the seats of the route for passengers wishing to fly MAN-LAX... This would also offer a small amount of additionaal capacity for passengers flying MAN-DXB, while not really stepping on the toes of the other three flights a day EK fly to MAN and would also reduce the need of upgrading another one of the exisiting 77W flights on the route to an A380 for the next year or two.


User currently onlineblueshamu330s From UK - England, joined Sep 2001, 2939 posts, RR: 25
Reply 21, posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 21273 times:

Quote:
Aviation analyst Saj Ahmad, chief analyst at StrategicAero Research, said there is still obvious demand in the market for Emirates to capitalise on.
Quote:
“Emirates could flood the North Atlantic with swathes of Airbus A380s and 777-300ERs out of places like Birmingham and Manchester, two cities which are bursting with pent up passenger demand, tempered only by the lack of long haul airlines operating there, particularly for Birmingham,” he said, adding that if the Dubai carrier goes through with the plan “British Airways and Virgin Atlantic will be the big losers.”

So says Saj Ahmad, the self proclaimed Chief analyst,,,LOL, make that the only analyst at StrategicAero Research. Who is StrategicAero Research ? A pompous name from behind which he spouts out his own personal opinion and tries to cloak it in legitimacy

No listed company, no financial accounts, he's a self proclaimed consultant who in reality is simply a serial blogger.

http://sajahmadfactcheck.blogspot.co.uk/p/who-is-saj-ahmad.html

Only the foolish follow his progress.



So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
User currently offlinegkirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24936 posts, RR: 56
Reply 22, posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 21270 times:

Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 20):
BA demonstrated this could not work, when they tried MAN-JFK and they could offer onward connection with AA.

EK can offer onward connections with JetBlue in the US, and links with FlyBe at the MAN end



When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineby738 From Tonga, joined Sep 2000, 2326 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 20736 times:

Quoting blueshamu330s (Reply 21):
Only the foolish follow his progress

A real dislike. Seems a little harsh...


User currently onlineblueshamu330s From UK - England, joined Sep 2001, 2939 posts, RR: 25
Reply 24, posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 20635 times:

Quoting by738 (Reply 23):
A real dislike. Seems a little harsh...

Because he wraps himself in supposed legitimacy with a string of fancy sounding analytical companies, none of which are registered, none of which produce accounts, and none of which stand up to scrutiny.

Blogspot is quite revealing if you take time to read through the links and read Mr Ahmad's blogs and articles.

It's not the person I dislike, it's the lack of legitimacy, objectivity and authenticity.

Rgds



So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
25 YTZ : I wouldn't discount the cargo dimension. So much more efficient to airlift cargo with one-stop to the US, not to mention being able to carry even more
26 airbazar : I disagree. The U.S. WAS an unquestioned leader but it no longer is. As pointed out above, it lead the way when it was the unquestionable economic su
27 s4popo : Could this be used to ease EK in the MIA market. I know there's been plenty of rumors over the last few years about DXB-MIA, but there might be less r
28 SR 103 : Actually Air Tahiti Nui flies the route as well, so AF is not the only non stop airline. There are plenty of hubs between LAX and CDG that cater to t
29 QatarA340 : The bilateral relationship between UAE and USA is more powerful than EK flying to the US from England. US will not rescind Open Skies simply because
30 Post contains links AeroWesty : Flying out of Heathrow may become an option: Competition For PHL-LHR With Merger (by cjpmaestro Jul 24 2013 in Civil Aviation) I reject that reasonin
31 Danfearn77 : MAN-EWR sees a very large percentage of terminating NYC pax. MAN-IAD however is a different story with only a handful of pax terminating in IAD.
32 Post contains images Flighty : There could be an A380 from EDI to BTV to carry gnomes between those hilly and chilly regions. With Emirates, it's hard to say really.
33 behramjee : yes you are right, I totally forgot about that. Stats are not from MIDT but rather MarketIS and SSMM and from this figure of 340,000 it reads as foll
34 ojas : Thanks for the numbers behramjee. While I'm no expert here, but I feel if UA and AA cannot make it work ... It will be a challenge for EK to get good
35 BD338 : Looking at the wider picture here, what I believe EK are saying is, when the Davies Commission looks at airport capacity and needs for the UK it shoul
36 2travel2know2 : The days for a possible EK DXB-STN-JFK have arrived. Also seems BRS catchment area wants an EK flight but due to BRS runway, that flight could operate
37 Burkhard : If the Brits and Americans accept this, they should first make the Emir of Dubai their head of state and accept their role as rightless slaves in a br
38 behramjee : EK's premium product and ability to market it will go a long way to making it work in the long run. If this is the logic, then EK would struggle on M
39 ikramerica : Not true re: the EU. There is little competition between US and EU carriers, actually. Between alliances, code shares, ATI, etc. it's more a matter o
40 QatarA340 : I understand what you mean. But, in the US you have the option of using way more airlines from Europe or US airlines to go from any point in the US t
41 avek00 : EK faltered on NYC-HAM in the wake of a competitor that had a hub on one end of the flight. They're free to try other routes if they have the authori
42 avek00 : Small potatoes compared to the formidable machines the immunized alliances have built. Skywards is an afterthought, at best, in the USA and France...
43 behramjee : HAM-NYC market size demand per year cannot be compared to CDG-LAX at all. Also EK used an in-efficient aircraft on this route i.e. the A345 which did
44 jayunited : EK feels like they can make (lets just say) JFK-GLA and/or JFK-MAN work year around with either a 773er or an A380. So my question is why is it that t
45 ElPistolero : Think you're underestimating brand loyalty in the US. Americans (make that North Americans) aren't known for being the most well-informed people in t
46 Post contains images MaverickM11 : This is a terrible idea, and mildly concerning if this and JFKMXP are their next best strategy when they still have loads of 380s coming. Loads of sea
47 Viscount724 : US-UAE is Open Skies so they have unlimited 5th freedom rights between the USA and anywhere in the world, subject only to having the same rights from
48 adamh8297 : Dreadful for the consumer or the airline's bean counters?
49 sonomaflyer : EK would hardly be making these proposals if they haven't run the numbers, considered their strategy and decided they'd make money on the routes. Its
50 AllegiantFlyer : can we see a JFK crew base in the future of EK?
51 Lufthansa : Why is everybody so scared of EK? Honestly, I can tell you, living in Australia, basically along with new zealand two countries that are basically Eur
52 Post contains images sonomaflyer : When it comes to AUSTRALIA, EK has reshaped the marketplace. It's created tremendous new competition and given folks all over Australia options they'v
53 MaverickM11 : Great for the consumer, if they don't mind two interline connections. Terrible for the airline. Same could be said for most awful ideas in airline hi
54 RyanairGuru : No, that we can say with absolute certainty. EK base everyone out of DXB, and even fifth freedom routes that have been operated for years are still f
55 sonomaflyer : I'd like to hear what terrible business decisions the management team at EK has made over that last several years during their massive growth phase.
56 SelseyBill : I don't think Americans/ Europeans should be or are 'scared', but they should be 'concerned' by these Middle Eastern megalomaniacs trying to get thei
57 WAC : QF has always been a regional player....their international presence has been typicaly historically of a regional flag carrier. Their long haul fleet
58 david_itl : Err... they would be the top-up for the likes of the existing GLA-DXB and MAN-DXB. More specifically, it's more about MAN. Current MAN-DXB services a
59 luckyone : Or they've begun to run out of points to connect through Dubai either through the limitations of the facility, or simply places that can sustain serv
60 2travel2know2 : EK MAN - IAH may not work, however, EK GLA - IAH or EDI - IAH (Scottish airports runway-lenght permitted) might. There's some kind of demand trigger
61 WAC : It would have to ABZ as most of oil and gas ops are operated out of there on the mainland. GLA or PIK are too far and EDI does not have the airspace
62 MaverickM11 : Not very many since most of their additions have been to their hub--have you seen very many long haul tags work at any carrier recently? Who would be
63 sonomaflyer : Not many. EK has one or two and a handful of carriers have one but not on any great scale. It would depend on if the business pull is there as it is
64 FlyingSicilian : There is more traffic on the IAH-ABZ sectors than PDEW numbers might show but most of it is flying in the oil companies' own fleet of aircraft. Whome
65 ElPistolero : That seems to be the AUSNZ way of looking at things. In the Atlantic market, a couple of prominent airlines (AC/LH) have gotten a little unhinged and
66 WAC : MaverickM11 You did not read my last 2 sentences.
67 MaverickM11 : Exactly, and there's a reason for that. Sure, but little, if any of that, is going to switch to EK, if even in the remotest of possibilities, a nonst
68 FlyingSicilian : I don't disagree in that it would not be enough to make a flight viable, but EK has several contracts with the industry now on IAH-DXB (and some onwa
69 RyanairGuru : I personally feel that AC's claims about Australia actually harm their cause, as it doesn't stand up to scrutiny, and therefore just make AC look sil
70 Lufthansa : VERY VERY true. That coffin started to be closed in 1972, when Singapore Airlines was born, and decided it would take on the then BOAC and QF with 70
71 1400mph : ? We now have two U.K registered full service scheduled carriers flying from the U.K to Australia. More than there has ever been. (Ironically conside
72 AyostoLeon : That might be true but it is also true that airports previously served no longer see BA, PER for example. The other named carriers did pull out befor
73 Post contains links RyanairGuru : Absolutely, indeed you will notice in my post I specifically mention that LHR is a strong enough market to support Aus routes, whereas FRA, CDG etc a
74 mainMAN : Not necessarily. The 2 x daily 757s from MAN to NYC are really representative of the market, which is a lot more substantial. Fares on these direct f
75 1400mph : That's a contradiction in terms. You cannot justify an 'anomaly'. If you can it is not an anomaly. LHR or more accurately the United Kingdom supports
76 scbriml : Nothing more? Seriously? Which is exactly what EK has done. Only if there were a grain of truth in your statement. But I'm afraid there isn't.
77 ElPistolero : There are enough threads about EK and Canada for you to peruse at your own leisure. What I find far more curious is your choice of word - in this cas
78 1400mph : Of course it's true. The airlines of the world with the help of the governments of the countries to which they are registered could price (transfer t
79 1400mph : I say again... The airlines of the world with the help of the governments of the countries to which they are registered could price (transfer traffic
80 1400mph : The strange thing is that EK is a modern day airline dinosaur. A hybrid spawned ironically from the sudden realisation that such an airline could eas
81 AirIndia : Which is where EK saw the potential AND
82 1400mph : I rather liken EK to a boxer going into the ring after years of being pumped full of steroids by his beneficiaries. Not really worthy of any respect
83 travelavnut : ???? IIRC they only once loaned government money, to start up the company, which they have repayed years ago. They have been profitable ever since...
84 1400mph : They are state owned. To look at this globally which one must as they compete globally - EK is a public sector company competing in a private sector
85 travelavnut : Yes, they are owned by a company (The Emirates Group) who in turn is owned by the Dubai government. But I have never seen any proof or numbers produc
86 Post contains images RyanairGuru : True, poor choice of word, but you know precisely what I mean. The UK market ex-Australia is stronger than any other European market 3 decades of har
87 ElPistolero : The Dark Ages. I like that. What is so 'dark' about our age? As I see it: 1) More people are flying than ever before. 2) flying is more affordable th
88 a380787 : So these executives would take a quick 7.5 hour hop in EK paid F to JFK then ensure jetBlue transcon out to SFO/LAX ?
89 Lufthansa : Obviously not. but if they were in MAN and they were going to maybe BOS or Washington or upstate New York, hell why not? If they're used to flying eu
90 YTZ : I have often suggested that this is exactly what alliance carriers should do. Don't even need to set up an airline. Approach the leader of a competit
91 a380787 : MAN-FRA-BOS on LH gets you a single terminal transfer, lounge at transfer, and clearing immigration at arrival MAN-JFK-BOS requires terminal change a
92 Post contains images Miami : EK A380 MIA-BHX & BOS-MAN anyone? -Miami
93 Viscount724 : Is that correct? I thought the German government no longer had any ownership share in LH.
94 avek00 : EU carriers generally don't have the cost structure to trounce anyone but themselves at the moment. Not just brand loyalty, but brand convenience. In
95 Viscount724 : There are many carriers where 6th freedom traffic is their dominant market. KLM is one example, plus many other large carriers based in countries wit
96 ElPistolero : "Has been" =/= "is". Did we revert back to 1970 sometime over the course of today? That close-alignment argument may have been valid when the airline
97 avek00 : I agree that there are other carriers who engage primarily in sixth-freedom business, such as KLM and Singapore (for various reasons, I strongly susp
98 Lufthansa : The US yes, But it has been VERY much so to Australian/EU carriers who basically used to control the skies between Europe and Asia, and Asia and Aust
99 Post contains links L410Turbolet : Less security concerns and ethical aspect involved in dealing with LH, an airline from an allied country as opposed to EK a state-owned airline of a
100 ElPistolero : I don't think you thought this through. Sure they do. The Netherlands is also utterly inconsequential in most capitals of the world. I daresay the UAE
101 Post contains images ASA : That is some BIZARRE logic you have there to justify how KL and SQ are okay to siphon/channel air traffic from all over the continents while the EK/Q
102 avek00 : I thought it through quite well. Who said my explanation was "logical"? Remember, international air rights are NOT a matter not of objective "logic",
103 RyanairGuru : Interesting, I hadn't heard of that before To their credit, Emirates did withdraw the terms (that's an observation, not a blind defense of Emirates!)
104 Post contains images scbriml : EK hasn't done that. Give me one example of such an airline. Perfectly true, but something that many on this site simply cannot accept. Let me fix th
105 Lufthansa : Well there is one benefit when it comes to banking in having your sole shareholder the government. And that is, banks will lend a lot more money to y
106 1400mph : ? There are more cars on the road than ever before. More fresh water is needed than ever before. More food is eaten than ever before and so on. That'
107 Post contains images travelavnut : You are of course correct! My apologies
108 1400mph : Of course the other factor is that with political/government involvement in the ownership of 'some' airline we will never see global open skies which
109 RyanairGuru : Precisely. There is a huge difference between EK and SQ, and AI and AR. I would be intrigued to hear what 1400mph has to say about Air New Zealand, a
110 1400mph : Well I would of thought it was more to do with threatening to close down military bases or blackmailing with aircraft orders (or lack of)........
111 ElPistolero : On this, we agree. What we don't agree on is the manner in which you apply the word 'parasitic'. I think its fair to say that you use the word in a p
112 Post contains images Surfandsnow : This seems like a great strategy to me. They added a 2nd daily nonstop DXB-LAX, then dropped it. Now they could extend one of the DXB-MAN flights to L
113 1400mph : The Indians and the Chinese are just richer. Ask any high end retailer in the shopping capitals of Europe. Easyjet and Ryanair are no longer any more
114 ElPistolero : I can't seem to copy/quote, so please bear with me. 1. Yes, India and china are relatively richer, but when they spend money at high end retailers in
115 ASA : ??? We are talking about international air traffic here ... not just traffic originating in the home airports of these airlines. I'm surprised this i
116 1400mph : So what if they have ? I don't see BA or LH sending dozens of aircraft to the desert ? Quite the opposite in recent times. Transfer traffic is fair g
117 scbriml : It's massively cheaper today when you factor in fuel costs.
118 a380787 : LH and AC are JV over Atlantic, so the same pax going via LH still helps AC (and the Canadian economy) in some form or another Just look at how EK ha
119 Post contains images ASA : Thanks - that's all I was hoping to hear. Please don't call EK/EY/QR parasitic anymore. If that suits you better, of course would will! I would too!
120 Viscount724 : But where was it built? Probably the U.S. or Canada or Mexico.
121 ElPistolero : Helps AC? Yes. Helps the Canadian economy? That's a simplistic assumption. If generating inefficient jobs and products helped countries, we wouldn't
122 ElPistolero : And EK is run by westerners, who also make up a significant portion (if not the majority) of the cockpit crew, as well as a significant proportion of
123 Lufthansa : Not to nit pick but CX is more than that, its double daily about every other day , but sometimes it doesnt show on the GDS as some of the flights sto
124 Post contains images RyanairGuru : Please understand that I'm not try to be abrasive, but what are you basing this on? I invite you to re-read #69 Actually DXB is an O&D market in
125 1400mph : I think that had something to do with aircraft technology ( that you mentioned ) range etc. The aircraft was on its way to Australia. It was not flyi
126 RyanairGuru : Actually it's not. Read into that what you will. If you want to go along with the view purported by AC then go ahead. However, as myself and Lufthans
127 1400mph : Did they not have these attributes before ? And if state owned SQ manages to gain access to QF's trans-Pacific market ? How long have they been tryin
128 RyanairGuru : A very long time, and the answer is probably even more "no" than it was pre-2008. Incidentally, they have stopped trying. Of course they did, I don't
129 1400mph : With state owned SQ and state owned EK on the scene is it any surprise ?
130 Lufthansa : I highly doubt that is on the cards now, unless they try and do so from New Zealand (which I also doubt they'd be interested). Why? They took a stake
131 hohd : About the only cities where EK can fly without disturbing existing competition is DXB-MAN-BOS and/or DXB-MAN-LAX. BOS itself cannot support a daily fl
132 sankaps : 5th freedom routes have never worked, especially in markets where there are strong home market airlines. SQ has had the right to fly UK-US for severa
133 a380787 : CX and SQ served Australia nonstop for ages, and yet it was in a state of equilibrium where QF and BA managed to maintain services on their own. The
134 Lufthansa : That's not true and an oversimplification. QF/BA were restricted to 21 sevices a week between Australia and the UK under the old bilaterals. This had
135 adamh8297 : Actually BOS can support a flight (healthy Indian traffic, growing DXB-BOS + other Middle east markets, and B6 partnership) though it will be tougher
136 a380787 : That's quite an understatement. I can count a lot of third-world flag carriers with better service and reputation than MU. CX has a huge Chinese netw
137 1400mph : SQ taking a stake in VA is tantamount to the them gaining access to QF's trans-Pacific market. With SQ's markets being devoured by EK no wonder they
138 sankaps : Don't think this is necessarily the case. SQ had a 49% stake in Virgin Atlantic for years, and I don't think anyone viewed that as SQ gaining access
139 Post contains images ElPistolero : That's a bold assertion. What did the bilateral between Australia and Hong Kong and Australia and Singapore look like in 1990? Or 2000? Was it always
140 Lufthansa : Yes...Hong Kong to Mainland CHINA!!!!! that's what they're targeting. and the connections aren't flight connections, they're POLITICAL connections. P
141 Lufthansa : Let's see. AOM, Air France, KLM, Olympic, Alitalia, Lufthansa, JAT, Austrian and Aeroflot all flew to Australia in the 1990s. I'd hardly call that li
142 Viscount724 : Continental European carriers I can recall that once operated to Australia: KLM Lufthansa Alitalia Austrian Olympic JAT UTA Aeroflot (very briefly an
143 RyanairGuru : With an A310, via-SIN, at sub-daily service. Actually they announced it pre-9/11 when the 74Es were first been purchased! Of course the subsequent ma
144 Lufthansa : You know what I take out of it? I take that Air Canada and it's fan boys are really really scared they don't have what it takes to compete on service
145 a380787 : Am I required to waste my hard earned dollars on a bad carrier just to comment on it ? Oh right, ryan air .....
146 1400mph : It was exactly the premise of the original purchase by SQ. VS just didn't live up to expectation hence the protracted sale. We have 'choice' on the r
147 ElPistolero : Actually, there is. Through LHR. If anyone is so hell-bent on flying only European and Australian carriers, they can do so. Its just that the Euro pr
148 Post contains links Airindia : Its interesting you say this. I just happen to see this report: http://bain.com/publications/article...customer-loyalty-in-Australia.aspx EK is most
149 Lufthansa : Exactly. And I can tell you as somebody who regularly travels back to Scandinavia, but likes to go to both Germany and the UK when I'm about the plac
150 a380787 : Do you really want to go there : 1. Not part of the Big 3 alliances 2. Slanted business class seats on 777-300ER when nearly everyone is flat bed 3.
151 ElPistolero : 1. Not a part of the alliances? So what? Not really sure what the issue is here, if one flies only once or twice a year (the much derided VFR/leisure
152 a380787 : You're using the worst in the industry to justify EK's offering ? ps both TK and UA are full flat bed, EK is only on some birds
153 ElPistolero : I suspect the angled flats only exist on the older aircraft and will be phased out. Either which way, I m not justifying anything. EK have to make th
154 Viscount724 : But they don't have 2-3-2 J on the A330. EK does, probably the only major carrier with such a product on the A330.
155 Lufthansa : Yes and it's being phased out and is mostly used on short regional hops to India, it's not like they're sending those things to Hong Kong or Australi
156 Viscount724 : But the A332s were used for quite some time on secondary routes to Europe which are significantly longer than 2 hours.
157 Lufthansa : That's true. I guess those markets put up with as it gave them a link they otherwise didn't have, but of course competition forced them to up the gam
158 ElPistolero : My mistake - I'm not familiar with EK's J products, so I assumed he was talking about 777s (which, by the looks of it, are 2-3-2 as well). Just notic
159 AyostoLeon : Competition might have been a part stimulus in removing the A332 from some routes but the growth of passenger numbers on those routes certainly playe
160 Viscount724 : More like 6 to 8 hours. EK A332s have been used to virtually all their European destinations at one time or other. For example, DXB-MAN is slightly f
161 RyanairGuru : Very few, if any They're mostly limited to regional Middle East and South Asia flights, for which the product is adequate. Don't get me wrong, IMHO E
162 1400mph : I agree with all that. In certain parts of the world it is great from a passenger perspective and only a fool would not recognise that. However, is t
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