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CVG International Flights  
User currently offlinebuckeyetech From United States of America, joined Jul 2013, 55 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 7477 times:

While planning a trip this Fall to Europe, I've been keeping tabs on our connecting airport of EWR, and I've come to realize what a mess that place is as far as delays and cancellations. With that being said, it seems like an airline would have much smoother operations if they were to use a place like CVG with their near-empty terminals, relatively clear air traffic, and multiple runways to support major international routes other than to CDG. Thoughts?


B-52H, C-141C, C-5A, C-17A
54 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7636 posts, RR: 25
Reply 1, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 7436 times:

In todays world, CVG doesnt have the O&D to support a major international hub any more. The days of international hubs in markets like STL, CVG, MCI, PIT, etc. are done.


Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlinebuckeyetech From United States of America, joined Jul 2013, 55 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 7358 times:

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 1):

I figured it probably wasn't economically feasible for smaller market airports to fly international flights, it's just a shame they can't be used to their full potential. Thanks!



B-52H, C-141C, C-5A, C-17A
User currently offlineAADC10 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2092 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 7264 times:

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 1):
In todays world, CVG doesnt have the O&D to support a major international hub any more. The days of international hubs in markets like STL, CVG, MCI, PIT, etc. are done.

Did any of those places ever have the O&D to support intercontinental flights? When there were more airlines and overall passenger traffic was higher, airlines established hubs in marginal cities because they were shut out of better hubs. With consolidation, these secondary hubs were folded. CVG was always an outsized hub, with low O&D but pre-merger DL only had ATL, CVG and SLC so they worked with what was available to them. DL's CVG-CDG route was probably not a big money maker.

Even large hubs like DFW and DEN whine about the limited number of intercontinental flights. Hubs should be in the largest cities possible. Geographically domestic hubs are best in the middle of the country. International hubs are better near the borders of the country so they can be fed by most of the rest of the USA.

Back in the 1990s when airports were struggling with a lack of capacity, there were proposals for remote mega hubs to relieve congestion but it would be a costly solution, moving passengers to someplace they did not want to go just because the space was there. I suppose the closest to that concept are DEN and DXB.


User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2763 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 7213 times:

From what I can see at present, CVG has 4 international destinations......

CDG on DL - 1 daily 763
YYZ on DL - 1 daily CRJ and AC - 2 daily CRJ,
CUN on DL and F9 - seasonally and sub-daily
PUJ on F9 - seasonally and 1 weekly

Here are CVG's ex-boarder Top 10 O&D markets and average daily pax total both to and from

1. Toronto..........125
2. Cancun............81
3. Paris................72
4. London.............72
5. Punta Cana.......45
6. Frankfurt............36
7. Montreal............29
8. Mexico City.......25
9. Rome................24
10. Genèva............23

With the above pax numbers, would it appear that CVG has as many international flights as they need for the amount of O&D that they have?

 


User currently offlineAS737MAX From United States of America, joined Mar 2013, 323 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 7190 times:

Is CVG-CDG profitable if the PDEW eastbound is only 72?


40 Flights/39,010 Miles Flown
User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4079 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 7178 times:

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 1):
In todays world, CVG doesnt have the O&D to support a major international hub any more. The days of international hubs in markets like STL, CVG, MCI, PIT, etc. are done.

Add to that MEM...



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2763 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 7144 times:

Quoting AS737MAX (Reply 5):
Is CVG-CDG profitable if the PDEW eastbound is only 72?

As per 2011 data, 72 is total average daily O&D pax both to and from Cincinnati and Paris, so PDEW would be 36 pax.

And is it profitable? I guess only DL knows for sure......

 


User currently offlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5295 posts, RR: 25
Reply 8, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 7139 times:

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 3):
DL's CVG-CDG route was probably not a big money maker.

You'd be surprised. Back during CVG's heyday, CVG-FRA was DL's best performing TATL flight. CVG-CDG also reportedly did quite well for the airline.



Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently onlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1936 posts, RR: 21
Reply 9, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 7134 times:

Quoting buckeyetech (Thread starter):

As stated above, in today's world with fuel and other costs as high as they are, large hubs in smaller markets just aren't feasible anymore unfortunately. What you say about using CVG in lieu of congested airports such as EWR definitely makes sense from a logistics point-of-view, however passengers just aren't willing to pay any sort of premium to avoid the congestion. With that said, while it's unfortunate that CVG is no longer directly connected to the likes of LGW, FRA and AMS, we're still pretty lucky to have the CDG flight which one can use to connect to other European spokes and thus avoid the mess that is EWR/JFK.

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 3):
DL's CVG-CDG route was probably not a big money maker.

Well they're still operating it daily year-round with the 763, so it's obviously doing well enough. P&G, GE Aviation and others consistently fill up the front cabin in addition to a significant cargo component.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25440 posts, RR: 22
Reply 10, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 7119 times:

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 3):
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 1):
In todays world, CVG doesnt have the O&D to support a major international hub any more. The days of international hubs in markets like STL, CVG, MCI, PIT, etc. are done.

Did any of those places ever have the O&D to support intercontinental flights?

To the best of my memory MCI never had any nonstop intercontinental flights and was never considered an international hub. TWA wanted to establish their hub at MCI but the airport wasn't well-designed for connecting flights and refused to spend the money to satisfy TWA's requirements for a hub. So TWA establlished their major hub at STL.


User currently onlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1936 posts, RR: 21
Reply 11, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 7079 times:

Quoting point2point (Reply 4):
With the above pax numbers, would it appear that CVG has as many international flights as they need for the amount of O&D that they have?

Agreed. Despite the hub cutbacks, Cincinnati is still pretty well served internationally in comparison to other similarly sized markets.

Quoting AS737MAX (Reply 5):
Is CVG-CDG profitable if the PDEW eastbound is only 72?

In a vacuum? Probably not. But yields are very strong, Business Elite is frequently full and you also have to consider in addition to those 36 PDEW solely between Cincinnati and Paris the number of people connecting to other cities in Europe/Middle East., for example, CDG is very frequently used by connecting pax going between Cincinnati and Geneva. Then there's also still pax connecting in CVG, albeit definitely not as many as 2005.


User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2763 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 7062 times:

Quoting OA412 (Reply 8):
You'd be surprised. Back during CVG's heyday, CVG-FRA was DL's best performing TATL flight. CVG-CDG also reportedly did quite well for the airline.
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 9):
Well they're still operating it daily year-round with the 763, so it's obviously doing well enough. P&G, GE Aviation and others consistently fill up the front cabin in addition to a significant cargo component.


With DL reporting the profits that it has been doing that last few quarters..... I don't think that there is really anything out there that DL would keep that is a money-loser. The fact that DL seems to hang on to CVG-CDG seems to indicate that this route is on the money plus side.......

Also, Cincinnati to Eastern/Western Europe is close to about 500 average daily O&D pax, so probably there are a lot of connects here that will pay a bit of a premium to be able to clear customs, etc., at CVG, rather than go through any of the busier east coast hubs. And if they are able to sell out most of the seats up front, then again, this flight will most likely be money plus for DL.

 


User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7592 posts, RR: 27
Reply 13, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 6838 times:

Quoting point2point (Reply 12):

Also, Cincinnati to Eastern/Western Europe is close to about 500 average daily O&D pax, so probably there are a lot of connects here that will pay a bit of a premium to be able to clear customs, etc., at CVG, rather than go through any of the busier east coast hubs. And if they are able to sell out most of the seats up front, then again, this flight will most likely be money plus for DL.

Bingo.

CVG-CDG thrives primarily because of the onward connections from CDG. This flight is CVG's primary feeder to Europe / Middle East.

The former international routes from CVG relied upon the connecting feed from DL in CVG which has been mostly shifted over to ATL, DTW, and JFK. CVG-CDG relies on the O&D from the Ohio Valley for CVG and all points beyond. Unlike domestic travel where one may go to DAY instead of CVG, CVG-CDG can pull from a much larger area and doesn't face the drive-off issue.


User currently offlineAS737MAX From United States of America, joined Mar 2013, 323 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 6794 times:

That makes sense
Not to get off topic but could someone run the PDEW for PDX-NRT, PDX-AMS, and PDX-LHR? I got lost trying to find it. Thanks!



40 Flights/39,010 Miles Flown
User currently offlinewingnutmn From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 643 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 6754 times:

Quoting buckeyetech (Thread starter):

CVG to most of Europe is a stretch on a 757. A lot of EWR-Europe are on 757s and come winter, a lot of those are pushing the limit of the aircraft. A 767 is overkill on most of Europe from CVG, and it costs a lot of money to just start a hub and feed international traffic through connections. The best option would be to either fly into EWR in the early am for an afternoon international flight, or just not fly out of EWR at all.

Wingnut



Any landing you can walk away from is a good landing! It's a bonus if you can fly the plane again!!
User currently offlineCIDFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2313 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 6560 times:

Quoting buckeyetech (Thread starter):
While planning a trip this Fall to Europe, I've been keeping tabs on our connecting airport of EWR, and I've come to realize what a mess that place is as far as delays and cancellations. With that being said, it seems like an airline would have much smoother operations if they were to use a place like CVG with their near-empty terminals, relatively clear air traffic, and multiple runways to support major international routes other than to CDG. Thoughts?

CVG has already been tried, it was a mega hub with over 600 flights a day back in 2005 now down to 120ish. Small markets like CVG (and MEM / STL/ PIT) have just not been able to sustain these large hubs. But we do still have congested free hubs, you can still fly through DTW and MSP on DL as an alternative to ORD or ATL. Both are large hubs but less prone to delays. IAD is another good hub that isnt as hectic as EWR. And these less congested hubs are still in markets large enough to support them.


User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2763 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 6424 times:

Quoting AS737MAX (Reply 14):
Not to get off topic but could someone run the PDEW for PDX-NRT, PDX-AMS, and PDX-LHR? I got lost trying to find it. Thanks!

Going a bit off topic but here

Portland to/from total average daily O&D pax

Tokyo - 118
London - 97
Amsterdam - 57

so PDEW would be half of those numbers

here is the link

http://www.brookings.edu/research/interactives/aviation

and there are pull down menus on the page which, along with arithmetic, will give you the info

 


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7639 posts, RR: 18
Reply 18, posted (1 year 2 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 6097 times:

My cousin was a regular on the CVG-LGW flight back in the day. He was relocated to Chicago after DL cut many of those routes, along with a lot of his office. Really sucks that the city can't be internationally prominent anymore.

Quoting point2point (Reply 4):
4. London.............72

So I'm guessing a good number of people from the CDG flight go to London?



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlineDeltaRules From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3784 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (1 year 2 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 5969 times:

Quoting OA412 (Reply 8):
CVG-CDG also reportedly did quite well for the airline.

CVG-CDG was a 777 for a while. It was the source of my only 777 flight to date in 2004.



Let's Kick the Tires & Light the Fires!!
User currently offlineckfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5250 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (1 year 2 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 5912 times:

Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 16):
CVG has already been tried, it was a mega hub with over 600 flights a day back in 2005 now down to 120ish. Small markets like CVG (and MEM / STL/ PIT) have just not been able to sustain these large hubs. But we do still have congested free hubs, you can still fly through DTW and MSP on DL as an alternative to ORD or ATL. Both are large hubs but less prone to delays. IAD is another good hub that isnt as hectic as EWR. And these less congested hubs are still in markets large enough to support them.

AA figured out in the 1990s that hubs in small metro areas aren't sustainable, because of the lack of O&D. BNA, and RDU became problems, because too much traffic at each hub was connecting traffic.


User currently onlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1936 posts, RR: 21
Reply 21, posted (1 year 2 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 5870 times:

Quoting DeltaRules (Reply 19):
Quoting OA412 (Reply 8):
CVG-CDG also reportedly did quite well for the airline.

CVG-CDG was a 777 for a while. It was the source of my only 777 flight to date in 2004.

A daily 777 alongside another daily AF flight at that.


User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2193 posts, RR: 15
Reply 22, posted (1 year 2 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5830 times:

DL also flew CVG-ZRH back in the day. I remember seeing the 767 boarding at Zurich in January 1997.


next flights: jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg, cdg-phl-msp
User currently offlineASA From Bangladesh, joined Dec 2010, 734 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (1 year 2 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5816 times:

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 6):

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 1):
In todays world, CVG doesnt have the O&D to support a major international hub any more. The days of international hubs in markets like STL, CVG, MCI, PIT, etc. are done.

Add to that MEM...

Otherwise known as "fly-over country" in B6 threads ...   


User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3095 posts, RR: 7
Reply 24, posted (1 year 2 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5775 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 21):
daily 777 alongside another daily AF flight at that.

Yep, I flew the 777 on CDG-CVG too. It was one of my best flights ever. Not long after we landed came the AF A340. I think it left before the 777 but being a slower airplane, the A340 landed after us.


25 OA412 : Yes. All told, CVG has had intercontinental flights to LGW, FRA, FCO, AMS, ZRH, CDG, and BRU. BRU was operated by an SN 743, and FRA was 2x daily in
26 THEFLLFLYER : I'm surprised that DL can't make CVG-NAS work during the Winter. A CRJ-900 has the legs to do it.
27 flyguy89 : Ah yes, I had forgotten about that. DL actually flew CVG-ZRH for quite a number of years, from 1993-2000 according to departedflights. CVG-MUC was al
28 jfk777 : Delta operates this flight because GE engines is based nearby and loads lots of cargo to France for its CFM jount venture. CFM makes the engines for
29 Deltal1011man : IIRC at one point DL asked for CVG/JFK-PVG mix. I want to say 3w CVG and 4w JFK
30 PSU.DTW.SCE : My guess is some, but it is likely dispersed amongst numerous connections on all carriers. For DL, the shortest trip times to LHR are CVG-BOS-LHR and
31 cle757 : A ERJ-145 can make it too, UA flies one from CLE to NAS in the winter
32 Post contains images PHX787 : Man all of this is extremely nostalgic, brings a tear to my eye I remember spotting when I was 11 with my grandparents, seeing so many 767s and the A3
33 CVG72 : Ugh don't break my heart. CVG is dying, that's for sure. We're lucky to have CVG-CDG. It's mainly so the Proctor and Gamble execs who need to get to
34 Post contains links Viscount724 : Related April 2013 news item re GE Aviation's activities in Ohio. Their headquarters are in Evendale, about 15 miles northeast of Cincinnati, and the
35 jfk777 : Are there really enough P & G people flying J class to justify this flight ? GE engines is the major customer here, the volume they generate has
36 flyguy89 : Granted this is just an educated guess, but at one time P&G chartered a Ryanair A320 for their Europe flying about 4 times weekly I believe. Usin
37 opethfan : Why would they charter a plane from a busy LCC with uncomfortable seats and has no NA operations? Not to mention that FR don't operate A320s. Also, r
38 Post contains links flyguy89 : LOL, should have been a bit more clear. I was talking about Ryan International Airlines http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryan_International_Airlines
39 Surfandsnow : I assume you are taking UA CVG-EWR-Europe? I can't help but remember the article about "The Worst Flight in America" - UA's infamous last CVG-EWR fli
40 PHX787 : It was a major driving force in the regional economy. Sure we definitely don't have the o&d, but having so many direct flights was quite helpful
41 Post contains images flyguy89 : Although I could see 757 service to LON being feasible. Well that's definitely a first, most people usually love Concourse B. When did you go/what ti
42 buckeyetech : Before I was aware of the headaches of EWR, I booked CMH-EWR-LHR for October..fingers crossed they're won't be any thunderstorms anywhere near the ea
43 sq452 : Before DL axed the route to LGW from CVG I believe it was on a 757.
44 jbmitt : AMS and LGW were briefly served with 757s. For the longest time, the flights were operated with 763's. 777 to CDG for a while, and 764 to FCO.
45 B727FA : The only over-the-pond narrow body out of CVG was P&G's ImagainAir (operated by RIA) 320 service in 2000.
46 flyguy89 : I don't recall LGW ever operating regularly with the 757, I could be wrong though, but I spotted at CVG a number of times before LGW and FRA were dis
47 SLCUT2777 : DL has pulled out of LGW completely however. The next LHR frequency slot between the U.S. & LHR DL is awarded will go to SLC now that SEA has bee
48 Post contains links MIflyer12 : Maybe if well-timed LHR slot pairs traded at $0, rather than GBP 15 million. http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...e-hitting-the-jackpot-again-10864
49 PSU.DTW.SCE : Actually it will likely be a 2nd daily DTW-LHR flight before SLC gets service.
50 flyguy89 : True, which is why I think if it ever were to happen it would probably be with AA in that elusive (if not improbable) idea of them offering 757 servi
51 SLCUT2777 : If any it would be MSP since they have the same numbers of annual passengers as DTW (@95K) without the stagnant growth. BA could jump back in on that
52 opethfan : Is this something that's on the cards? And is it something that might warrant a new thread, especially in regards to how it could affect competition
53 SLCUT2777 : It's heavily rumored, and just might be the next big airline merger in the U.S. once US/AA is approved by the DOJ.
54 michman : DL has already stated their priority is a second DTW-LHR flight. They have made no mention of a second MSP-LHR flight. Are you stating DL is lying?
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