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CVG International Flights  
User currently offlinebuckeyetech From United States of America, joined Jul 2013, 51 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 7362 times:

While planning a trip this Fall to Europe, I've been keeping tabs on our connecting airport of EWR, and I've come to realize what a mess that place is as far as delays and cancellations. With that being said, it seems like an airline would have much smoother operations if they were to use a place like CVG with their near-empty terminals, relatively clear air traffic, and multiple runways to support major international routes other than to CDG. Thoughts?


B-52H, C-141C, C-5A, C-17A
54 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7506 posts, RR: 24
Reply 1, posted (1 year 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 7321 times:

In todays world, CVG doesnt have the O&D to support a major international hub any more. The days of international hubs in markets like STL, CVG, MCI, PIT, etc. are done.


Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlinebuckeyetech From United States of America, joined Jul 2013, 51 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 7243 times:

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 1):

I figured it probably wasn't economically feasible for smaller market airports to fly international flights, it's just a shame they can't be used to their full potential. Thanks!



B-52H, C-141C, C-5A, C-17A
User currently offlineAADC10 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2073 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 7149 times:

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 1):
In todays world, CVG doesnt have the O&D to support a major international hub any more. The days of international hubs in markets like STL, CVG, MCI, PIT, etc. are done.

Did any of those places ever have the O&D to support intercontinental flights? When there were more airlines and overall passenger traffic was higher, airlines established hubs in marginal cities because they were shut out of better hubs. With consolidation, these secondary hubs were folded. CVG was always an outsized hub, with low O&D but pre-merger DL only had ATL, CVG and SLC so they worked with what was available to them. DL's CVG-CDG route was probably not a big money maker.

Even large hubs like DFW and DEN whine about the limited number of intercontinental flights. Hubs should be in the largest cities possible. Geographically domestic hubs are best in the middle of the country. International hubs are better near the borders of the country so they can be fed by most of the rest of the USA.

Back in the 1990s when airports were struggling with a lack of capacity, there were proposals for remote mega hubs to relieve congestion but it would be a costly solution, moving passengers to someplace they did not want to go just because the space was there. I suppose the closest to that concept are DEN and DXB.


User currently onlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2740 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (1 year 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 7098 times:

From what I can see at present, CVG has 4 international destinations......

CDG on DL - 1 daily 763
YYZ on DL - 1 daily CRJ and AC - 2 daily CRJ,
CUN on DL and F9 - seasonally and sub-daily
PUJ on F9 - seasonally and 1 weekly

Here are CVG's ex-boarder Top 10 O&D markets and average daily pax total both to and from

1. Toronto..........125
2. Cancun............81
3. Paris................72
4. London.............72
5. Punta Cana.......45
6. Frankfurt............36
7. Montreal............29
8. Mexico City.......25
9. Rome................24
10. Genèva............23

With the above pax numbers, would it appear that CVG has as many international flights as they need for the amount of O&D that they have?

 


User currently onlineAS737MAX From United States of America, joined Mar 2013, 299 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (1 year 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 7075 times:

Is CVG-CDG profitable if the PDEW eastbound is only 72?


38 Flights/37,891 Miles Flown
User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4028 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (1 year 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 7063 times:

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 1):
In todays world, CVG doesnt have the O&D to support a major international hub any more. The days of international hubs in markets like STL, CVG, MCI, PIT, etc. are done.

Add to that MEM...



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently onlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2740 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (1 year 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 7029 times:

Quoting AS737MAX (Reply 5):
Is CVG-CDG profitable if the PDEW eastbound is only 72?

As per 2011 data, 72 is total average daily O&D pax both to and from Cincinnati and Paris, so PDEW would be 36 pax.

And is it profitable? I guess only DL knows for sure......

 


User currently offlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5232 posts, RR: 25
Reply 8, posted (1 year 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 7024 times:

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 3):
DL's CVG-CDG route was probably not a big money maker.

You'd be surprised. Back during CVG's heyday, CVG-FRA was DL's best performing TATL flight. CVG-CDG also reportedly did quite well for the airline.



Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently onlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1900 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (1 year 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 7019 times:

Quoting buckeyetech (Thread starter):

As stated above, in today's world with fuel and other costs as high as they are, large hubs in smaller markets just aren't feasible anymore unfortunately. What you say about using CVG in lieu of congested airports such as EWR definitely makes sense from a logistics point-of-view, however passengers just aren't willing to pay any sort of premium to avoid the congestion. With that said, while it's unfortunate that CVG is no longer directly connected to the likes of LGW, FRA and AMS, we're still pretty lucky to have the CDG flight which one can use to connect to other European spokes and thus avoid the mess that is EWR/JFK.

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 3):
DL's CVG-CDG route was probably not a big money maker.

Well they're still operating it daily year-round with the 763, so it's obviously doing well enough. P&G, GE Aviation and others consistently fill up the front cabin in addition to a significant cargo component.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24871 posts, RR: 22
Reply 10, posted (1 year 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 7004 times:

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 3):
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 1):
In todays world, CVG doesnt have the O&D to support a major international hub any more. The days of international hubs in markets like STL, CVG, MCI, PIT, etc. are done.

Did any of those places ever have the O&D to support intercontinental flights?

To the best of my memory MCI never had any nonstop intercontinental flights and was never considered an international hub. TWA wanted to establish their hub at MCI but the airport wasn't well-designed for connecting flights and refused to spend the money to satisfy TWA's requirements for a hub. So TWA establlished their major hub at STL.


User currently onlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1900 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (1 year 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 6964 times:

Quoting point2point (Reply 4):
With the above pax numbers, would it appear that CVG has as many international flights as they need for the amount of O&D that they have?

Agreed. Despite the hub cutbacks, Cincinnati is still pretty well served internationally in comparison to other similarly sized markets.

Quoting AS737MAX (Reply 5):
Is CVG-CDG profitable if the PDEW eastbound is only 72?

In a vacuum? Probably not. But yields are very strong, Business Elite is frequently full and you also have to consider in addition to those 36 PDEW solely between Cincinnati and Paris the number of people connecting to other cities in Europe/Middle East., for example, CDG is very frequently used by connecting pax going between Cincinnati and Geneva. Then there's also still pax connecting in CVG, albeit definitely not as many as 2005.


User currently onlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2740 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (1 year 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 6947 times:

Quoting OA412 (Reply 8):
You'd be surprised. Back during CVG's heyday, CVG-FRA was DL's best performing TATL flight. CVG-CDG also reportedly did quite well for the airline.
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 9):
Well they're still operating it daily year-round with the 763, so it's obviously doing well enough. P&G, GE Aviation and others consistently fill up the front cabin in addition to a significant cargo component.


With DL reporting the profits that it has been doing that last few quarters..... I don't think that there is really anything out there that DL would keep that is a money-loser. The fact that DL seems to hang on to CVG-CDG seems to indicate that this route is on the money plus side.......

Also, Cincinnati to Eastern/Western Europe is close to about 500 average daily O&D pax, so probably there are a lot of connects here that will pay a bit of a premium to be able to clear customs, etc., at CVG, rather than go through any of the busier east coast hubs. And if they are able to sell out most of the seats up front, then again, this flight will most likely be money plus for DL.

 


User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7528 posts, RR: 28
Reply 13, posted (1 year 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 6723 times:

Quoting point2point (Reply 12):

Also, Cincinnati to Eastern/Western Europe is close to about 500 average daily O&D pax, so probably there are a lot of connects here that will pay a bit of a premium to be able to clear customs, etc., at CVG, rather than go through any of the busier east coast hubs. And if they are able to sell out most of the seats up front, then again, this flight will most likely be money plus for DL.

Bingo.

CVG-CDG thrives primarily because of the onward connections from CDG. This flight is CVG's primary feeder to Europe / Middle East.

The former international routes from CVG relied upon the connecting feed from DL in CVG which has been mostly shifted over to ATL, DTW, and JFK. CVG-CDG relies on the O&D from the Ohio Valley for CVG and all points beyond. Unlike domestic travel where one may go to DAY instead of CVG, CVG-CDG can pull from a much larger area and doesn't face the drive-off issue.


User currently onlineAS737MAX From United States of America, joined Mar 2013, 299 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (1 year 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 6679 times:

That makes sense
Not to get off topic but could someone run the PDEW for PDX-NRT, PDX-AMS, and PDX-LHR? I got lost trying to find it. Thanks!



38 Flights/37,891 Miles Flown
User currently offlinewingnutmn From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 640 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 6639 times:

Quoting buckeyetech (Thread starter):

CVG to most of Europe is a stretch on a 757. A lot of EWR-Europe are on 757s and come winter, a lot of those are pushing the limit of the aircraft. A 767 is overkill on most of Europe from CVG, and it costs a lot of money to just start a hub and feed international traffic through connections. The best option would be to either fly into EWR in the early am for an afternoon international flight, or just not fly out of EWR at all.

Wingnut



Any landing you can walk away from is a good landing! It's a bonus if you can fly the plane again!!
User currently offlineCIDFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2273 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (1 year 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 6445 times:

Quoting buckeyetech (Thread starter):
While planning a trip this Fall to Europe, I've been keeping tabs on our connecting airport of EWR, and I've come to realize what a mess that place is as far as delays and cancellations. With that being said, it seems like an airline would have much smoother operations if they were to use a place like CVG with their near-empty terminals, relatively clear air traffic, and multiple runways to support major international routes other than to CDG. Thoughts?

CVG has already been tried, it was a mega hub with over 600 flights a day back in 2005 now down to 120ish. Small markets like CVG (and MEM / STL/ PIT) have just not been able to sustain these large hubs. But we do still have congested free hubs, you can still fly through DTW and MSP on DL as an alternative to ORD or ATL. Both are large hubs but less prone to delays. IAD is another good hub that isnt as hectic as EWR. And these less congested hubs are still in markets large enough to support them.


User currently onlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2740 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (1 year 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 6309 times:

Quoting AS737MAX (Reply 14):
Not to get off topic but could someone run the PDEW for PDX-NRT, PDX-AMS, and PDX-LHR? I got lost trying to find it. Thanks!

Going a bit off topic but here

Portland to/from total average daily O&D pax

Tokyo - 118
London - 97
Amsterdam - 57

so PDEW would be half of those numbers

here is the link

http://www.brookings.edu/research/interactives/aviation

and there are pull down menus on the page which, along with arithmetic, will give you the info

 


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7210 posts, RR: 17
Reply 18, posted (1 year 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5982 times:

My cousin was a regular on the CVG-LGW flight back in the day. He was relocated to Chicago after DL cut many of those routes, along with a lot of his office. Really sucks that the city can't be internationally prominent anymore.

Quoting point2point (Reply 4):
4. London.............72

So I'm guessing a good number of people from the CDG flight go to London?



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlineDeltaRules From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3730 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (1 year 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5854 times:

Quoting OA412 (Reply 8):
CVG-CDG also reportedly did quite well for the airline.

CVG-CDG was a 777 for a while. It was the source of my only 777 flight to date in 2004.



Let's Kick the Tires & Light the Fires!!
User currently offlineckfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5179 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (1 year 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 5797 times:

Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 16):
CVG has already been tried, it was a mega hub with over 600 flights a day back in 2005 now down to 120ish. Small markets like CVG (and MEM / STL/ PIT) have just not been able to sustain these large hubs. But we do still have congested free hubs, you can still fly through DTW and MSP on DL as an alternative to ORD or ATL. Both are large hubs but less prone to delays. IAD is another good hub that isnt as hectic as EWR. And these less congested hubs are still in markets large enough to support them.

AA figured out in the 1990s that hubs in small metro areas aren't sustainable, because of the lack of O&D. BNA, and RDU became problems, because too much traffic at each hub was connecting traffic.


User currently onlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1900 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (1 year 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 5755 times:

Quoting DeltaRules (Reply 19):
Quoting OA412 (Reply 8):
CVG-CDG also reportedly did quite well for the airline.

CVG-CDG was a 777 for a while. It was the source of my only 777 flight to date in 2004.

A daily 777 alongside another daily AF flight at that.


User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2165 posts, RR: 15
Reply 22, posted (1 year 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 5715 times:

DL also flew CVG-ZRH back in the day. I remember seeing the 767 boarding at Zurich in January 1997.


next flights: msp-phx-slc, msp-mdw, ord-sju, sju-dfw-ord, msp-dfw, dfw-phl, phl-msp, jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg
User currently offlineASA From Bangladesh, joined Dec 2010, 723 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (1 year 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 5701 times:

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 6):

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 1):
In todays world, CVG doesnt have the O&D to support a major international hub any more. The days of international hubs in markets like STL, CVG, MCI, PIT, etc. are done.

Add to that MEM...

Otherwise known as "fly-over country" in B6 threads ...   


User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 2995 posts, RR: 7
Reply 24, posted (1 year 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 5660 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 21):
daily 777 alongside another daily AF flight at that.

Yep, I flew the 777 on CDG-CVG too. It was one of my best flights ever. Not long after we landed came the AF A340. I think it left before the 777 but being a slower airplane, the A340 landed after us.


User currently offlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5232 posts, RR: 25
Reply 25, posted (1 year 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 5927 times:

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 22):
DL also flew CVG-ZRH back in the day. I remember seeing the 767 boarding at Zurich in January 1997.

Yes. All told, CVG has had intercontinental flights to LGW, FRA, FCO, AMS, ZRH, CDG, and BRU. BRU was operated by an SN 743, and FRA was 2x daily in the 90s. I even remember route applications that would have given CVG flights to China and Japan.



Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlineTHEFLLFLYER From United States of America, joined Mar 2013, 186 posts, RR: 0
Reply 26, posted (1 year 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 5831 times:

I'm surprised that DL can't make CVG-NAS work during the Winter. A CRJ-900 has the legs to do it.

User currently onlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1900 posts, RR: 9
Reply 27, posted (1 year 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 5867 times:

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 22):
DL also flew CVG-ZRH back in the day. I remember seeing the 767 boarding at Zurich in January 1997.

Ah yes, I had forgotten about that. DL actually flew CVG-ZRH for quite a number of years, from 1993-2000 according to departedflights.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 25):
Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 22):
DL also flew CVG-ZRH back in the day. I remember seeing the 767 boarding at Zurich in January 1997.

Yes. All told, CVG has had intercontinental flights to LGW, FRA, FCO, AMS, ZRH, CDG, and BRU.

CVG-MUC was also briefly flown 1993/1994ish.


User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8286 posts, RR: 7
Reply 28, posted (1 year 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 5863 times:
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Quoting AS737MAX (Reply 5):
Is CVG-CDG profitable if the PDEW eastbound is only 72?

Delta operates this flight because GE engines is based nearby and loads lots of cargo to France for its CFM jount venture. CFM makes the engines for the 737NG and many A320's.


User currently offlineDeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9289 posts, RR: 14
Reply 29, posted (1 year 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 5672 times:

Quoting OA412 (Reply 25):

IIRC at one point DL asked for CVG/JFK-PVG mix. I want to say 3w CVG and 4w JFK



yep.
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7528 posts, RR: 28
Reply 30, posted (1 year 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 4634 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 18):
So I'm guessing a good number of people from the CDG flight go to London?

My guess is some, but it is likely dispersed amongst numerous connections on all carriers.

For DL, the shortest trip times to LHR are CVG-BOS-LHR and CVG-DTW-LHR. Those two options compliment each other well as the CVG-BOS-LHR departs CVG at 4pm & arrives in LHR at 7:00am. The CVG-DTW-LHR trip departs CVG at 7:45pm and arrives in LHR at 11am. MSP is also viable too.

For the return, the best connections are over CDG, DTW, and ATL.


User currently offlinecle757 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1124 posts, RR: 0
Reply 31, posted (1 year 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 4612 times:

Quoting THEFLLFLYER (Reply 26):
I'm surprised that DL can't make CVG-NAS work during the Winter. A CRJ-900 has the legs to do it.

A ERJ-145 can make it too, UA flies one from CLE to NAS in the winter



Cleveland the best location in the Nation
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7210 posts, RR: 17
Reply 32, posted (1 year 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 4422 times:

Man all of this is extremely nostalgic, brings a tear to my eye   

I remember spotting when I was 11 with my grandparents, seeing so many 767s and the A340 land at CVG....



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlineCVG72 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 167 posts, RR: 1
Reply 33, posted (1 year 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4263 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 32):
I remember spotting when I was 11 with my grandparents, seeing so many 767s and the A340 land at CVG....

Ugh don't break my heart.

CVG is dying, that's for sure. We're lucky to have CVG-CDG. It's mainly so the Proctor and Gamble execs who need to get to Europe can do so, not because it has a high load on a regular basis.

The extremely high cost of rent coupled with DL's downsizing and the abundance of much cheaper alternatives within the region like LEX, SDF, DAY, CMH and IND are killing CVG.



Roll Tide // Next: UA/EV/LH CVG-EWR-FRA-DUS-MUC-EWR-CVG
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24871 posts, RR: 22
Reply 34, posted (1 year 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 4051 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 28):
Delta operates this flight because GE engines is based nearby and loads lots of cargo to France for its CFM jount venture. CFM makes the engines for the 737NG and many A320's.

Related April 2013 news item re GE Aviation's activities in Ohio. Their headquarters are in Evendale, about 15 miles northeast of Cincinnati, and their engine test facility is in Peebles, about 65 miles east of Cincinnati.
http://www.journal-news.com/news/bus...o-spend-200-million-in-ohio/nXRTy/


User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8286 posts, RR: 7
Reply 35, posted (1 year 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3998 times:
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Quoting CVG72 (Reply 33):
CVG is dying, that's for sure. We're lucky to have CVG-CDG. It's mainly so the Proctor and Gamble execs who need to get to Europe can do so, not because it has a high load on a regular basis

Are there really enough P & G people flying J class to justify this flight ? GE engines is the major customer here, the volume they generate has to be tons flown daily to and from CDG.


User currently onlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1900 posts, RR: 9
Reply 36, posted (1 year 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3879 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 35):
Quoting CVG72 (Reply 33):
CVG is dying, that's for sure. We're lucky to have CVG-CDG. It's mainly so the Proctor and Gamble execs who need to get to Europe can do so, not because it has a high load on a regular basis

Are there really enough P & G people flying J class to justify this flight ? GE engines is the major customer here, the volume they generate has to be tons flown daily to and from CDG.

Granted this is just an educated guess, but at one time P&G chartered a Ryanair A320 for their Europe flying about 4 times weekly I believe. Using that as a gauge, they typically send ~20 people daily on the CDG flight at full-fare Y or J class fares, so P&G alone probably doesn't justify the flight, but they are a very major bastion supporting it. GE Aviation also sends a large number of J class fliers on the route in addition to other smaller companies such as Kao, Convergys and Cintas. So with all the aforementioned factors and in talking with employees who work the flight, the front cabin regularly goes out full, even in the dead of Winter apparently as I myself experienced. I think the GE Aviation cargo is icing on the cake and pretty much what keeps the flight operating with a 767.


User currently offlineopethfan From Canada, joined Dec 2012, 435 posts, RR: 0
Reply 37, posted (1 year 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3850 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 36):
but at one time P&G chartered a Ryanair A320 for their Europe flying about 4 times weekly I believe

Why would they charter a plane from a busy LCC with uncomfortable seats and has no NA operations? Not to mention that FR don't operate A320s. Also, range probably wouldn't be feasible on any narrowbody without a fuel stop or two.

[Edited 2013-07-26 16:57:20]

User currently onlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1900 posts, RR: 9
Reply 38, posted (1 year 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3835 times:

Quoting opethfan (Reply 37):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 36):
but at one time P&G chartered a Ryanair A320 for their Europe flying about 4 times weekly I believe

Why would they charter a plane from a busy LCC with uncomfortable seats and has no NA operations? Not to mention that FR don't operate A320s. Also, range probably wouldn't be feasible on any narrowbody without a fuel stop or two.

LOL, should have been a bit more clear. I was talking about Ryan International Airlines http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryan_International_Airlines


User currently offlineSurfandsnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2856 posts, RR: 30
Reply 39, posted (1 year 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3629 times:

Quoting buckeyetech (Thread starter):
While planning a trip this Fall to Europe, I've been keeping tabs on our connecting airport of EWR, and I've come to realize what a mess that place is as far as delays and cancellations.

I assume you are taking UA CVG-EWR-Europe? I can't help but remember the article about "The Worst Flight in America" - UA's infamous last CVG-EWR flight of the day.

(http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324412604578513233389346270.html)

Indeed, EWR is the most delayed airport in the nation, and that has been the case for years. Even with a slot program in place (a policy rarely practiced in the U.S.), EWR just can't seem to overcome inherent challenges like congested airspace, antiquated layout, lousy weather year round, etc. Yet, UA's EWR operation is by far the most comprehensive hub serving New York City, with a great mix of O&D and connecting traffic that facilitates unique seamless connections like MSN-EWR-BFS or MYR-EWR-BOM or YYT-EWR-SNA that just aren't possible through any other hubs (i.e. DTW, IAD, JFK, ORD, PHL, etc.).

Quoting buckeyetech (Thread starter):
With that being said, it seems like an airline would have much smoother operations if they were to use a place like CVG with their near-empty terminals, relatively clear air traffic, and multiple runways to support major international routes other than to CDG. Thoughts?

The terminals at CVG are empty for a reason - lack of demand. The airlines will gladly trade the efficiency of less congested airports for the higher revenues of the most notoriously congested/delay prone - i.e. DCA, EWR, JFK, LGA, ORD, PHL, SFO. Even WN, which long championed the convenience of ISP for the New York area, MHT/PVD for the Boston area, OAK/SJC for the Bay Area, BWI for the D.C. area, etc. is eagerly jumping into primary airports like LGA/EWR, BOS, SFO, and DCA - often at the expense of their traditional secondary airport strongholds.

CVG was designed with a megahub in mind, and boy did they have one. I always found it odd how a second-tier city like Cincinnati, Ohio had nonstop service to some rather exotic places like ANC, EGE, FCO, HNL, SNA, etc. while nearby hubs serving much larger markets like Chicago, Detroit, or Philadelphia often did not. Obviously DL was heavily reliant on lower-yielding connecting traffic to fill those flights, and that is why flights like those are long gone. There was not enough O&D to justify all that service, and DL made cuts accordingly. Today the CVG hub is stable and profitable, with a level of service that is appropriate for the Cincinnati market. CDG, CUN, and YYZ are the only viable international markets from CVG, as the O&D figures posted by point2point attest to. There is certainly no need for more international CVG service than DL currently offers today.

As for smoother operations, there are plenty of great alternatives to the likes of EWR. Unless you absolutely MUST use EWR (I listed a few examples above), it is best avoided. DTW is the nicest major hub facility in the country, and even in the winter seems to do very well in terms of operations. I personally like to transit via PHX, which has great weather and never feels all that crowded to me (granted, it isn't a European gateway). I did transit through CVG once, and was not impressed. DL's Concourse B just had a food court and some tchotchke shops - no decent restaurants or nice stores. It is certainly not a place I would go out of my way to transit again.



Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7210 posts, RR: 17
Reply 40, posted (1 year 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3591 times:

Quoting Surfandsnow (Reply 39):
CVG was designed with a megahub in mind, and boy did they have one. I always found it odd how a second-tier city like Cincinnati, Ohio had nonstop service to some rather exotic places like ANC, EGE, FCO, HNL, SNA, etc. while nearby hubs serving much larger markets like Chicago, Detroit, or Philadelphia often did not. Obviously DL was heavily reliant on lower-yielding connecting traffic to fill those flights, and that is why flights like those are long gone. There was not enough O&D to justify all that service, and DL made cuts accordingly. Today the CVG hub is stable and profitable, with a level of service that is appropriate for the Cincinnati market. CDG, CUN, and YYZ are the only viable international markets from CVG, as the O&D figures posted by point2point attest to. There is certainly no need for more international CVG service than DL currently offers today.

It was a major driving force in the regional economy. Sure we definitely don't have the o&d, but having so many direct flights was quite helpful for us, especially in the banking industry. Now, the banks in town have to write off a day for travel for each business trip, on average.



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently onlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1900 posts, RR: 9
Reply 41, posted (1 year 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3374 times:

Quoting Surfandsnow (Reply 39):
Today the CVG hub is stable and profitable, with a level of service that is appropriate for the Cincinnati market. CDG, CUN, and YYZ are the only viable international markets from CVG, as the O&D figures posted by point2point attest to.

   Although I could see 757 service to LON being feasible.

Quoting Surfandsnow (Reply 39):
I did transit through CVG once, and was not impressed.

Well that's definitely a first, most people usually love Concourse B.

Quoting Surfandsnow (Reply 39):
DL's Concourse B just had a food court and some tchotchke shops - no decent restaurants or nice stores. It is certainly not a place I would go out of my way to transit again.

When did you go/what time were you transiting through? Because in Concourse B alone, in addition to the food court with fast food, there's Wolfgang Puck, Max & Erma's, Outback and a new wine bar that just opened. As far as shopping there's Brooks Brothers, The Body Shop, Erwin Pearl, an InMotion store and duty free...on par with most airports pretty much.


User currently offlinebuckeyetech From United States of America, joined Jul 2013, 51 posts, RR: 0
Reply 42, posted (1 year 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3293 times:

Quoting Surfandsnow (Reply 39):

Before I was aware of the headaches of EWR, I booked CMH-EWR-LHR for October..fingers crossed they're won't be any thunderstorms anywhere near the eastern seaboard, along with any other excuse they will use to delay any incoming domestic flights into there.

After growing up in the Cincinnati area, I only now appreciate how sprawling CVG is with its four runways. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CVG_airport_diagram.svg



B-52H, C-141C, C-5A, C-17A
User currently offlinesq452 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 1110 posts, RR: 0
Reply 43, posted (1 year 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3046 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 41):
Although I could see 757 service to LON being feasible.

Before DL axed the route to LGW from CVG I believe it was on a 757.



SIN > CVG > BOS
User currently offlinejbmitt From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 547 posts, RR: 2
Reply 44, posted (1 year 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3017 times:

AMS and LGW were briefly served with 757s. For the longest time, the flights were operated with 763's. 777 to CDG for a while, and 764 to FCO.

User currently offlineB727FA From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 751 posts, RR: 0
Reply 45, posted (1 year 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2870 times:

The only over-the-pond narrow body out of CVG was P&G's ImagainAir (operated by RIA) 320 service in 2000.


My comments/opinions are my own and are not to be construed as the opinion(s) of my employer.
User currently onlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1900 posts, RR: 9
Reply 46, posted (1 year 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2739 times:

Quoting jbmitt (Reply 44):
AMS and LGW were briefly served with 757s. For the longest time, the flights were operated with 763's.


I don't recall LGW ever operating regularly with the 757, I could be wrong though, but I spotted at CVG a number of times before LGW and FRA were discontinued and it was still being flown with a 767. As for AMS, the first attempt was in 2004 when it operated briefly with wide-body equipment before being discontinued, it then returned as a seasonal 757 flight around 2007 I think and then ended 2009 after operating for two seasons, so AMS was operated more often with the 757 than 767.


User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4028 posts, RR: 11
Reply 47, posted (1 year 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 2614 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 41):
Although I could see 757 service to LON being feasible.

DL has pulled out of LGW completely however. The next LHR frequency slot between the U.S. & LHR DL is awarded will go to SLC now that SEA has been covered.



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineMIflyer12 From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 967 posts, RR: 0
Reply 48, posted (1 year 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 2586 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 41):
Although I could see 757 service to LON being feasible.

Maybe if well-timed LHR slot pairs traded at $0, rather than GBP 15 million.

http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...e-hitting-the-jackpot-again-108646


User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7528 posts, RR: 28
Reply 49, posted (1 year 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2537 times:

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 47):
DL has pulled out of LGW completely however. The next LHR frequency slot between the U.S. & LHR DL is awarded will go to SLC now that SEA has been covered.

Actually it will likely be a 2nd daily DTW-LHR flight before SLC gets service.


User currently onlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1900 posts, RR: 9
Reply 50, posted (1 year 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2374 times:

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 47):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 41):
Although I could see 757 service to LON being feasible.

DL has pulled out of LGW completely however.

True, which is why I think if it ever were to happen it would probably be with AA in that elusive (if not improbable) idea of them offering 757 service to LHR from smaller US markets.

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 48):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 41):
Although I could see 757 service to LON being feasible.

Maybe if well-timed LHR slot pairs traded at $0, rather than GBP 15 million.

Indeed, it's unfortunate that LHR is so constrained.


User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4028 posts, RR: 11
Reply 51, posted (1 year 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2304 times:

Quoting DTW.SCE" class="quote" target="_blank">PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 49):
Actually it will likely be a 2nd daily DTW-LHR flight before SLC gets service.

If any it would be MSP since they have the same numbers of annual passengers as DTW (@95K) without the stagnant growth. BA could jump back in on that one at their frequency choice at any given time as well. I'm not certain however if the DL/KL/AF joint venture calls for 2nd frequnecies at DRW or MSP before one at SLC. What also could drive this is a DL acquisition of AS which would possibly send SLC the direction of MEM or CVG.



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineopethfan From Canada, joined Dec 2012, 435 posts, RR: 0
Reply 52, posted (1 year 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2283 times:

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 51):
What also could drive this is a DL acquisition of AS

Is this something that's on the cards? And is it something that might warrant a new thread, especially in regards to how it could affect competition in the Pacific Northwest?


User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4028 posts, RR: 11
Reply 53, posted (1 year 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2264 times:

Quoting opethfan (Reply 52):
Is this something that's on the cards? And is it something that might warrant a new thread, especially in regards to how it could affect competition in the Pacific Northwest?

It's heavily rumored, and just might be the next big airline merger in the U.S. once US/AA is approved by the DOJ.



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlinemichman From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 486 posts, RR: 0
Reply 54, posted (1 year 20 hours ago) and read 2114 times:

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 51):
If any it would be MSP since they have the same numbers of annual passengers as DTW (@95K) without the stagnant growth.

DL has already stated their priority is a second DTW-LHR flight. They have made no mention of a second MSP-LHR flight. Are you stating DL is lying?


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