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Air India B787 Flight Ovens Overheat  
User currently offlinediscoverCSG From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 821 posts, RR: 0
Posted (11 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 17223 times:

A post on another aviation site reports that an AI 788 had an oven fire on board, DEL-CCU.

Anybody have more information?

89 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4895 posts, RR: 16
Reply 1, posted (11 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 17206 times:

Just an overheated Samosa, probably. Actually the so-called fire was in an oven in the galley.

User currently offlinemotorhussy From New Zealand, joined Mar 2000, 3107 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (11 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 16837 times:

Possibly the new tandoors they're trialling...   

[Edited 2013-07-25 20:44:18]


come visit the south pacific
User currently offlinejetfuel From Australia, joined Jan 2005, 2195 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (11 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 16681 times:

Oven over heated. No damage . Nothing to see, Move on folks


Where's the passion gone out of the airline industry? The smell of jetfuel and the romance of taking a flight....
User currently offlinePEK777 From China, joined Jun 2012, 122 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (11 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 16550 times:

Wouldn't surprise me if this Bush-League operation did this intentionally to get a 787 mishap into the media in an attempt to get compensation from Boeing. I know it sounds ridiculous, but look at some of the logic we have seem come from this airline in the recent past!
  


User currently offlinefreqflyer From India, joined Apr 2006, 99 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 15850 times:

Quoting PEK777 (Reply 4):
but look at some of the logic we have seem come from this airline in the recent past!

I don't know about their logic, but yours seems absurd.

The aircraft was back in operation after removing the offending oven. The matter was reported to Boeing as a matter of course. Where does the compensation angle come in at all?


User currently offlineDTW2HYD From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 1677 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 15609 times:

Quoting PEK777 (Reply 4):
we have seem come from this airline in the recent past!

Did we miss something? How many crashes/fatalities/injuries AI had in recent past. India is a true democratic country, media reports every thing.


User currently offlineDTWPurserBoy From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 1497 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 15411 times:

Overheating ovens are a daily occurrence. Most of the time the oven has not overheated but the contents of a container inside have (particularly when warming chocolate for sundaes) making a terrible burnt smell, a cleanup mess but no harm done. Except that the crew won't be getting a sundae today. This is a non-newsworthy thread.

The ovens on modern aircraft are pre-programmed to heat at varying temperatures depending on the contents of the oven. It can be overridden, however, and that is when the problem occurs.



Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
User currently offlineDIJKKIJK From France, joined Jul 2003, 1780 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 13903 times:

Quoting comorin (Reply 1):
Just an overheated Samosa,
Quoting jetfuel (Reply 3):
Oven over heated. No damage

According to this source, it was a fire that needed to be put out using extinguishers. More than just an overheated samosa, I'm afraid.

http://www.livemint.com/Companies/vP...en-fire-spooks-Air-India-crew.html


and given that the 787 has, unfortunately, earned a reputation with regards to fires breaking out where they shouldn't, it is quite newsworthy.

Luckily, neither the airplane nor any of the passengers or crew were injured here.



Never argue with idiots. They will bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
User currently offlineairdfw From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 174 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 13723 times:

Quoting discoverCSG (Thread starter):
DEL-CCU.

Are they still using these birds domestically? Isn't that waste?


User currently offlineLTC8K6 From United States of America, joined Jun 2009, 1172 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 13723 times:

Most sources seem to be reporting that it was just smoke from inside the oven.

User currently offlineTheAviator380 From UK - England, joined Feb 2013, 370 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 13320 times:

Quoting airdfw (Reply 9):

Would you also call UNITED 787 used on domestic sector in USA as a waste? Check out traffic on DEL-CCU sector please. Also India is huge big country and domestic travel has gone up so much in recent past. I won't be surprised if they continue using one on this sector in coming days.

Cheers.


User currently offlinereadytotaxi From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 3151 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 12538 times:

Quoting DIJKKIJK (Reply 8):
Luckily, neither the airplane nor any of the passengers or crew were injured here.

Just the poor inflight meal.  



you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4217 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 12540 times:
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Quoting TheAviator380 (Reply 11):
Check out traffic on DEL-CCU sector please. Also India is huge big country and domestic travel has gone up so much in recent past.

Very true!

New Delhi to Kolkata (Calcutta) is 814 sm.

Now for reference, Houston to Denver is 860 sm.

If these are both routes flown by 787s, then the distances are very similar.


User currently offlineUA787DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 420 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 12196 times:

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 13):
Now for reference, Houston to Denver is 860 sm.

If these are both routes flown by 787s, then the distances are very similar.

To be fair, IAH-DEN is only on a 787 so the aircraft is positioned for DEN-NRT. For instance, on Monday, July 29th, the UA timetable shows x5 739, x3 738, x1 752, and x1 788. It could easily support larger planes, but UA is going for frequency.

Quoting TheAviator380 (Reply 11):
Would you also call UNITED 787 used on domestic sector in USA as a waste?

Given that his username includes DFW he might...AA in DFW vs UA in IAH...   

Quoting airdfw (Reply 9):
Are they still using these birds domestically? Isn't that waste?

On the route, no. Given the crowding at some Indian airports, if you can put a high-capacity plane on the route, do it.


User currently offlineukoverlander From United Kingdom, joined May 2010, 360 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 11620 times:

Quoting PEK777 (Reply 4):
Wouldn't surprise me if this Bush-League operation did this intentionally to get a 787 mishap into the media in an attempt to get compensation from Boeing. I know it sounds ridiculous, but look at some of the logic we have seem come from this airline in the recent past!

You're right - it sounds ridiculous.


User currently offlineDTW2HYD From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 1677 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 11318 times:

I have a theory on 787 fires, being American at heart 787 burns whenever it is at a port linked to British. BOS,LHR,CCU.

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24643 posts, RR: 22
Reply 17, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 10997 times:

Quoting airdfw (Reply 9):

Are they still using these birds domestically? Isn't that waste?

No more a waste than using them on significantly shorter domestic routes in Japan.


User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5730 posts, RR: 48
Reply 18, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 10976 times:

Quoting DIJKKIJK (Reply 8):
According to this source, it was a fire that needed to be put out using extinguishers. More than just an overheated samosa, I'm afraid.

http://www.livemint.com/Companies/vP...en-fire-spooks-Air-India-crew.html


and given that the 787 has, unfortunately, earned a reputation with regards to fires breaking out where they shouldn't, it is quite newsworthy.

No it was just food that was in the oven much too long. This is not newsworthy in the least.



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5730 posts, RR: 48
Reply 19, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 10945 times:


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That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineASA From Bangladesh, joined Dec 2010, 717 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 9609 times:

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 16):
I have a theory on 787 fires, being American at heart 787 burns whenever it is at a port linked to British. BOS,LHR,CCU.

hahaha - good one. and a very astute observation.

these three cities have indeed some remarkable similarities ... no questions on their past   


User currently offlineBoeing747_600 From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 1293 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 9515 times:

Hey, it takes 900 F to cook a juicy Tandoori chicken leg!

User currently offlineBoeing747_600 From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 1293 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 9459 times:

Quoting ASA (Reply 20):
hahaha - good one. and a very astute observation.

and in any case, even if it isn't, it still beats the nonsensical rambling of PEK777 


User currently offlineDTWPurserBoy From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 1497 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 8757 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 17):
Are they still using these birds domestically? Isn't that waste?

It is common practice with a new aircraft type to operate it domestically while gaining operating experience and training crews. We did the same with the 747-400 (MSP-PHX) and the A330's. If they break they are close to a maintenance base.



Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
User currently offlineAlpage From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2013, 42 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 8413 times:

It is very worrying this situation. There are too many "leading indicators" and signals for a major event with this plane. My concern is to see Boeing and the Airways playing dice with the lives of passengers like this, dismissing and ignoring every "minor" event.

User currently offlinediscoverCSG From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 821 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 7697 times:

I've never been more glad to have a thread title changed by the moderators. I originally posted not knowing it was "just" an oven issue.

User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30402 posts, RR: 84
Reply 26, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 7715 times:
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Quoting Alpage (Reply 24):
There are too many "leading indicators" and signals for a major event with this plane.

That is only because every little issue with the 787 is reported in the media and, by extension, on this forum.

When the A380 entered service, every little issue generated it's own thread in CivAv. It got to the point that one would be forgiven for thinking the A380 had a single-digit dispatch rate percentage and that they carried more mechanics than passengers.  

[Edited 2013-07-26 18:56:44]

User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4820 posts, RR: 4
Reply 27, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 7795 times:

Quoting discoverCSG (Reply 25):

I've never been more glad to have a thread title changed by the moderators. I originally posted not knowing it was "just" an oven issue.

Your welcome even though I'm not a moderator I just thought it was misleading.

Just a note, if you feel the title needs to be updated with the correct information you can click "SUGGEST DELETION" & follow the prompts.

EK8414



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlinesankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 28, posted (11 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 6621 times:

Quoting DIJKKIJK (Reply 8):
According to this source, it was a fire that needed to be put out using extinguishers. More than just an overheated samosa, I'm afraid.

http://www.livemint.com/Companies/vP....html

This article in Forbes too suggests it took fire extinguishers to put out. The article goes on to castigate AI for not making an emergency landing at the nearest suitable airport.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/johngogl...didnt-crew-make-emergency-landing/


User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4820 posts, RR: 4
Reply 29, posted (11 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 6308 times:

Quoting sankaps (Reply 28):
This article in Forbes too suggests it took fire extinguishers to put out. The article goes on to castigate AI for not making an emergency landing at the nearest suitable airport.

Talk about incompetents. I've never flown AI & honestly don't have intentions to fly in the near future! Any fire regardless of it being under control justifies diverting to the nearest airport!

EK8413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31660 posts, RR: 56
Reply 30, posted (11 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 6110 times:

Why did the cb not trip.


Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlinesankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 31, posted (11 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 5962 times:

Thread title is now misleading given the latest emerging info -- it was more than a case of overheating ovens (otherwise they would not need to use fire extinguishers). Have suggested to the mods that the title be changed to reflect this.

User currently offlineStuckInCA From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1943 posts, RR: 0
Reply 32, posted (11 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 5597 times:

Quoting sankaps (Reply 31):
Thread title is now misleading given the latest emerging info -- it was more than a case of overheating ovens (otherwise they would not need to use fire extinguishers). Have suggested to the mods that the title be changed to reflect this.

Does that really seem necessary to you?

When the QF A380 had an uncontained engine failure causing substantial damage, the thread title was "QF A380 SIN-SYD engine failure, emergency landing." Note that the thread title, while accurate, sounds somewhat mundane relative to the severity of the actual incident. Nobody made an issue of it. This is just one example.


User currently offlinefreqflyer From India, joined Apr 2006, 99 posts, RR: 0
Reply 33, posted (11 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5444 times:

Quoting EK413 (Reply 29):
Any fire regardless of it being under control justifies diverting to the nearest airport!

At what stage of the flight did the event occur ? Is it possible that the nearest suitable airport was indeed CCU ? LKO, VNS and PAT cannot take a 787, PAT is a problem even for 737/320 's.

Is it possible that the extinguishers were used as a matter of abundant caution? We have no details at this point. But the local media is not jumping all over AI as yet and that is surprising.


User currently offlineDIJKKIJK From France, joined Jul 2003, 1780 posts, RR: 4
Reply 34, posted (11 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5455 times:

Quoting EK413 (Reply 29):
Talk about incompetents. I've never flown AI & honestly don't have intentions to fly in the near future! Any fire regardless of it being under control justifies diverting to the nearest airport!

It was a DEL-CCU flight with a total flying time of 1 hour 40 minutes! The nearest diversion airport would have been either DEL or CCU

[Edited 2013-07-28 09:03:41]


Never argue with idiots. They will bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
User currently offlineGr8circle From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 3089 posts, RR: 4
Reply 35, posted (11 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5438 times:

Quoting EK413 (Reply 29):
Talk about incompetents. I've never flown AI & honestly don't have intentions to fly in the near future!

Like many others on here, you seem to be heavily influenced by a.net opinions.....AI has been a favorite punching bag for many on this forum for some time now......let the facts emerge before making up your mind about the airline.....


User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4820 posts, RR: 4
Reply 36, posted (11 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 5148 times:

Quoting freqflyer (Reply 33):
At what stage of the flight did the event occur ?

How long does it take a fire to be out of control? Does Swiss flight 111 ring any alarm bells?

Quoting Gr8circle (Reply 35):
Like many others on here, you seem to be heavily influenced by a.net opinions.

As an individual I choose to fly carriers I trust QF/LH/BA/EK as an example and let me tell you AI certainly doesn't meet my criteria.

EK8413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlineDTW2HYD From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 1677 posts, RR: 2
Reply 37, posted (11 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4923 times:

Quoting EK413 (Reply 36):
As an individual I choose to fly carriers I trust QF/LH/BA/EK as an example and let me tell you AI certainly doesn't meet my criteria.

Interesting. QF is obvious. LH is definitely top. BA is a OK. Hope you are aware most of EK MX engineers are former AI employees. AI has much conservative pilot training and promotion policies than EK. You won't become Captain with few hours of flying because you are a UAE citizen.


User currently offlineGr8circle From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 3089 posts, RR: 4
Reply 38, posted (11 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4823 times:

Quoting EK413 (Reply 36):
As an individual I choose to fly carriers I trust QF/LH/BA/EK as an example and let me tell you AI certainly doesn't meet my criteria.

Well, you're entitled to your opinion and you've found that the aforesaid airlines meet your criteria and that's fine too.....but you seem (just like a lot of other a.netters) to have formed your opinion of AI based on media and a.net reports rather than a personal flight experience.....that's all I'm pointing out.....


User currently offlinesankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 39, posted (11 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 4512 times:

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 37):
Interesting. QF is obvious. LH is definitely top. BA is a OK.

I think EK's comments relate to operational professionalism / safety consciousness. Curious why you would say QF is "obvious" and BA just "OK" when history suggests BA is one of the safest, most professionally run operations in the entire airline industry?


User currently offlinesankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 40, posted (11 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 4450 times:

Quoting Gr8circle (Reply 38):
.....but you seem (just like a lot of other a.netters) to have formed your opinion of AI based on media and a.net reports rather than a personal flight experience

Gr8circle: I don't think personal flight experience is relevant at all to this discussion, which is around operational professionalism and safety consciousness.

While AI may have improved in recent years, it does indeed have a long way to go to overcome the "SkyGods" culture that so strongly permeates it, resulting in stories popping up with depressing regularity about cockpit crew flouting regulations and safety norms, whether by entertaining cabin crew up front, inviting film actresses to the flight deck, getting into physical altercations, locking themselves out of the flight deck accidentally, and what not.

Not to mention scenes personally witnessed not so long ago of cabin crew smoking in the galleys. Any regular AI flyer will also tell you while the service may more often than not be fine and the food good (at least in business class), attention to safety details such as how bags are stowed, whether seat belts are fastened, seat back upright, electronic devices turned off, etc, is low.

It is the unfortunate truth that they still have a long way to go before their operational and safety culture can be considered world class.


User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4820 posts, RR: 4
Reply 41, posted (11 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 4370 times:

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 37):
Interesting. QF is obvious. LH is definitely top. BA is a OK. Hope you are aware most of EK MX engineers are former AI employees.
QF always been recognised for their safety record, LH is by far one my favourite European carriers with a professional approach, BA provide a wonderful service even in cattle class (I travel up the front these days) & EK have a large quantity of expats & foreign crew above & below the wing which follow strict guidelines.
I guarantee AI is far cry from the above & introducing the B787 to their fleet doesn't attract me to an airline with a terrible reputation. Good luck to them I say but their government will prevent the carrier from moving forward.
That's just my views and opinions.

EK8413

[Edited 2013-07-29 04:00:39]


Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlineDTW2HYD From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 1677 posts, RR: 2
Reply 42, posted (11 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 4197 times:

Yet again, dragged in to off topic discussion...

Quoting sankaps (Reply 39):
Curious why you would say QF is "obvious" and BA just "OK"

It is like Delta is my first choice. QF gave up its international ops to EK, how does it matter how safe it was?

BA is no longer the aviation leader it used to be. Another airline barely surviving.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 40):
entertaining cabin crew up front, inviting film actresses to the flight deck, getting into physical altercations, locking themselves out of the flight deck accidentally

Cabin crew in the cockpit is not a violation or any safety regulation.
If door gets jammed how is it flight crew's fault. There were two pilots in the cockpit, diverted to the closed airport.
Actress in cockpit is a violation and crew is suspended. In western terms the system worked. End of story.

Interestingly the only major accident in recent's AI past is caused by a UK expat pilot, by not listening to a local FO.

I agree 100% about the way they conduct themselves, no one used to complain about them in the past, they became tone deaf.

Disclaimer: I flew on AI in 1997 and in 2013, some 16 years apart and no way related to AI.


User currently offlinesankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 43, posted (11 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4133 times:

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 42):
Cabin crew in the cockpit is not a violation or any safety regulation.

Not it is not. But having them there for extended periods of time for non-duty related reasons is certainly not SOP either.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 42):
It is like Delta is my first choice. QF gave up its international ops to EK, how does it matter how safe it was?

BA is no longer the aviation leader it used to be. Another airline barely surviving.

Sorry, has nothing to do with the topic at hand, and you are factually incorrect about BA which is actually doing very well.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 42):
Yet again, dragged in to off topic discussion...

Perhaps would not had happened if you hadn't made some seemingly random remarks about QF, LH, BA etc.


User currently offlineDTW2HYD From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 1677 posts, RR: 2
Reply 44, posted (11 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4083 times:

Quoting sankaps (Reply 43):
Perhaps would not had happened if you hadn't made some seemingly random remarks about QF, LH, BA etc.

I was just responding to [Reply 36], some seemingly random remarks about AI etc.


User currently offlineGr8circle From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 3089 posts, RR: 4
Reply 45, posted (11 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3778 times:

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 44):
Quoting sankaps (Reply 43):Perhaps would not had happened if you hadn't made some seemingly random remarks about QF, LH, BA etc.
I was just responding to [Reply 36], some seemingly random remarks about AI etc.

Ahh.....AI bashing all over again......really surprising how AI gets the worst end of the (a.net) stick for every big or small mistake they make (and I do admit they make a lot of them), while for other (more "respected" carriers), it's always "oh, these things happen, let's move on".......I think AI needs to devote some PR efforts to improve their image with a.nutters, more than anyone else... 


User currently offlinehimmat01 From India, joined Dec 2004, 1047 posts, RR: 6
Reply 46, posted (11 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 3510 times:

Quoting Gr8circle (Reply 45):

I wish AI would appoint you as its PR Head. They really need somebody like you.  



An airplane might disappoint any pilot but it'll never surprise a good one.
User currently onlinegarpd From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2603 posts, RR: 4
Reply 47, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3380 times:

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 42):
BA is no longer the aviation leader it used to be. Another airline barely surviving.

An Airline that is "barely" surviving does not take deliveries of brand new 77Ws, 787s and A380s.
BA are operating at a profit in fact.
Perhaps you are mixing them up with VS?

Please check your information before posting, particularly when it is off topic.



arpdesign.wordpress.com
User currently offline777Boeing777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2011, 111 posts, RR: 0
Reply 48, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3341 times:

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 32):
Does that really seem necessary to you?

To him, yes given his well documented history throughout multiple 787-related threads. Who hasn't left something in the oven to long or set the wrong temperature, and it got a big smokey. Doesn't mean my house is defective.


User currently offlinesankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 49, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3331 times:

Quoting 777Boeing777 (Reply 48):
To him, yes given his well documented history throughout multiple 787-related threads. Who hasn't left something in the oven to long or set the wrong temperature, and it got a big smokey. Doesn't mean my house is defective.

Yes, all of us have left something set at the wrong temperature and then used fire extinguishers to cope with the result, when 40,000 feet up in the skies.

 


User currently offline777Boeing777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2011, 111 posts, RR: 0
Reply 50, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3315 times:

Quoting sankaps (Reply 49):
Yes, all of us have left something set at the wrong temperature and then used fire extinguishers to cope with the result, when 40,000 feet up in the skies.

....... and something relatively minor in the grand scheme of things, at least to most of us. Flight crews are trained to handle incidents like this. Move along, ...... move along ......


User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 51, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3281 times:

The Forbes guy said they should've diverted, he worked on the Swissair crash, BTW why didn't UPS land at nearest airport rather than continue to Dubai.

User currently offlinesankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 52, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3268 times:

Quoting 777Boeing777 (Reply 50):
....... and something relatively minor in the grand scheme of things, at least to most of us. Flight crews are trained to handle incidents like this. Move along, ...... move along ......

Nothing involving smoke and fire and use of fire extinguishers on an airplane while airborne can be dismissed as minor. And, contrary to your opinion, my comments on this thread are directed not at the 787, but at Air India. As are the comments of the former NTSB guy whose Forbes article I linked (I'm sure you think he's an idiot too).


User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4098 posts, RR: 1
Reply 53, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3224 times:

Quoting freqflyer (Reply 5):
I don't know about their logic, but yours seems absurd.

The aircraft was back in operation after removing the offending oven. The matter was reported to Boeing as a matter of course. Where does the compensation angle come in at all?

AI is always in the media whining about their aircraft just to get compensation from Boeing. I hope eventually that Boeing will tire of their antics and just no sell them any aircraft unless there is anti-whining clause in their contract.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4820 posts, RR: 4
Reply 54, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3227 times:

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 44):

Quoting sankaps (Reply 43):
Perhaps would not had happened if you hadn't made some seemingly random remarks about QF, LH, BA etc.

I was just responding to [Reply 36], some seemingly random remarks about AI etc.

Why my personal opinions have become the main discussion blows me away. I simply stated I refuse to fly AI & wish the carrier all the best with their expansion ventures etc.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 52):

Quoting 777Boeing777 (Reply 50):
....... and something relatively minor in the grand scheme of things, at least to most of us. Flight crews are trained to handle incidents like this. Move along, ...... move along ......

Nothing involving smoke and fire and use of fire extinguishers on an airplane while airborne can be dismissed as minor. And, contrary to your opinion, my comments on this thread are directed not at the 787, but at Air India. As are the comments of the former NTSB guy whose Forbes article I linked (I'm sure you think he's an idiot too).

        

I'm watching Air Crash Investigations tonight & guess what it's the Swiss 111.

EK8413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offline777Boeing777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2011, 111 posts, RR: 0
Reply 55, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3178 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 51):
The Forbes guy said they should've diverted, he worked on the Swissair crash, BTW why didn't UPS land at nearest airport rather than continue to Dubai.

If you're referring to UPS Flight 6, IIRC, returning to DXB was the only option. Where else could they have diverted to?

Quoting sankaps (Reply 52):
Nothing involving smoke and fire and use of fire extinguishers on an airplane while airborne can be dismissed as minor. And, contrary to your opinion, my comments on this thread are directed not at the 787, but at Air India. As are the comments of the former NTSB guy whose Forbes article I linked (I'm sure you think he's an idiot too).

My commentary regarding your comments are not limited to this thread only. Have there been any reports from he crew themselves? I would be interested to hear their first hand account of the incident. My experience with press reporting is that they tend to embellish a story to make it seem like it's more than it actually is, hence why I am curious to hear from the crew. I am not passing judgement on the former-NTSB imvestigator at all, however, the difference between this incident and Swiss 111 is that the "Flight 111 cockpit voice recorder which indicated that the crew spent some time troubleshooting smoke that was coming into the cockpit and cabin through the air conditioning system," and this AI incident was identified immediately. Where could this AI flight have diverted to? From what I have read, the only airports capable of handling the 787 were the departure and destination airports. Despite the criticism that AI recieves, I think the crew did a good job handling this incident.


User currently offlinesankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 56, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3069 times:

Quoting 777Boeing777 (Reply 55):

If you're referring to UPS Flight 6, IIRC, returning to DXB was the only option. Where else could they have diverted to?

To Doha, which was closer at the point the emergency was declared.

Quoting 777Boeing777 (Reply 55):
My commentary regarding your comments are not limited to this thread only.

Well then it should be. One's comments should be on the issues being discussed, and not directed at one's perceptions of an individual personally especially when it has no bearing on this thread.


User currently offline777Boeing777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2011, 111 posts, RR: 0
Reply 57, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2994 times:

Quoting sankaps (Reply 56):
Well then it should be. One's comments should be on the issues being discussed, and not directed at one's perceptions of an individual personally especially when it has no bearing on this thread.

Then I guess the comment police will be showing up at my door reeeeeal soon. I'll put a pot of coffee on for them. My perception wasn't personal, it's based on fact.


User currently offlinesankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 58, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2961 times:

Quoting 777Boeing777 (Reply 57):
My perception wasn't personal, it's based on fact.

Well then, you're wrong. I have no axe to grind with Boeing or the 787, I just happen to have a POV on the 787 saga and how that has been, and is being, (mis)handled by Boeing that does not appeal to some people who continue to pooh-pooh the issues.

And it is a POV that is shared by many, including Boeing old-timers, incidentally.


User currently offlineDTW2HYD From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 1677 posts, RR: 2
Reply 59, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2924 times:

Continuing off topic:

Quoting EK413 (Reply 29):
Talk about incompetents. I've never flown AI & honestly don't have intentions to fly in the near future! Any fire regardless of it being under control justifies diverting to the nearest airport!
Quoting EK413 (Reply 41):
QF always been recognised for their safety record
Quoting EK413 (Reply 54):
Why my personal opinions have become the main discussion blows me away. I simply stated I refuse to fly AI & wish the carrier all the best with their expansion ventures etc.

Well you made it sound like QF is perfect and AI shouldn't even be in the business.

As far as international ops goes QF is a paper airline. Photo op formation flying with EK over Australian landmarks doesn't make it an industry leader. So don't compare QF with real airlines. QF has had systemic maintenance issues for a long time. Google it.

Quoting garpd (Reply 47):
An Airline that is "barely" surviving does not take deliveries of brand new 77Ws, 787s and A380s.

If it is doing so well why it didn't go on an acquisition spree like LH did. Why it merged itself with IB and became a Spanish company.

Imagine if AI MX didn't close fan latches of both engines of a A319. Forum will be all over AI. For BA it is a minor incident.


User currently offlineSpeedbored From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2013, 221 posts, RR: 0
Reply 60, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2882 times:

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 59):
why it didn't go on an acquisition spree like LH did.

By doing something like acquiring BMI from LH, perhaps?

Oh wait ...


User currently offline777Boeing777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2011, 111 posts, RR: 0
Reply 61, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2892 times:

Quoting sankaps (Reply 58):
I have no axe to grind with Boeing or the 787

Sorry, but facts don't jive with your statements. Just the facts, that's all.


User currently offlineDIJKKIJK From France, joined Jul 2003, 1780 posts, RR: 4
Reply 62, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2860 times:

Quoting sankaps (Reply 40):
While AI may have improved in recent years, it does indeed have a long way to go to overcome the "SkyGods" culture that so strongly permeates it, resulting in stories popping up with depressing regularity about cockpit crew flouting regulations and safety norms, whether by entertaining cabin crew up front, inviting film actresses to the flight deck, getting into physical altercations, locking themselves out of the flight deck accidentally, and what not.

All of which was reported in the hyperbolic and sensationalist Indian media, whose reports usually have to be taken with a huge spoon of curry ! Does anyone know what really happened?

Quoting EK413 (Reply 41):
I guarantee AI is far cry from the above & introducing the B787 to their fleet doesn't attract me to an airline with a terrible reputation.

Have you done a safety audit and know things others don't? AI may have a bad reputation with respect to service, but there's absolutely nothing anywhere to suggest that they are an unsafe airline. In fact, AI 's safety record is pretty much acceptable by any standard and many of the more reputed carriers have had worse incidents than them.

[Edited 2013-07-30 07:24:33]


Never argue with idiots. They will bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
User currently offlinesankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 63, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2832 times:

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 59):
If it is doing so well why it didn't go on an acquisition spree like LH did. Why it merged itself with IB and became a Spanish company.

DTW2HYD, you have no clue of what you are talking of. BA did not "merge itself with IB and become a Spanish company", it remains BA under parent company IAG, which has IB as another unit. Just like AF remains AF under parent company AF-KL. And LH under LH Group.

While acquisitions in themselves do not indicate much (or Swissair would still be around rather than be choked by its ill-informed "Hunter" acquisition strategy), LH is not doing the acquisitions, the parent group is. Just like IAG is (BD and Vueling being acquisitions made in the past year itself).

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 59):
Imagine if AI MX didn't close fan latches of both engines of a A319. Forum will be all over AI. For BA it is a minor incident.

You are wrong again. It is not a minor incident for BA at all. But it is a rare incident. Please compare historical safety records of AI and BA, relative to their respective sizes, before you make such ridiculous statements.


User currently offlineDTW2HYD From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 1677 posts, RR: 2
Reply 64, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2786 times:

Quoting sankaps (Reply 63):
you have no clue of what you are talking of
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Airlines_Group

There was no IAG before merger. HQ may be in London, but it is a Spanish registered company. Just semantics, but you are the with no clue.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 63):
It is not a minor incident for BA at all. But it is a rare incident.

Are you saying if AI MX didn't close fan cowls, you would say it is just a rare incident move on. That will be a deviation from your standard policy.


User currently offlineTheRedBaron From Mexico, joined Mar 2005, 2186 posts, RR: 8
Reply 65, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2761 times:

Quoting PEK777 (Reply 4):
Wouldn't surprise me if this Bush-League operation did this intentionally to get a 787 mishap into the media in an attempt to get compensation from Boeing. I know it sounds ridiculous, but look at some of the logic we have seem come from this airline in the recent past!

I love politically incorrect comments! Got a big laugh ! yes its ridiculous but funny..

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 19):
BTW. That Air India fire aboard 787 was food left too long in the oven...and nothing more.
— Glenn Farley (@GlennFarley) July 26, 2013

Airline food that burned to oblivion....nothing lost here...now the fire ac

Quoting Stitch (Reply 26):
When the A380 entered service, every little issue generated it's own thread in CivAv. It got to the point that one would be forgiven for thinking the A380 had a single-digit dispatch rate percentage and that they carried more mechanics than passengers.  

True and I think if someone here at Anet begins selling axes with a big A or a B etched on them, he is going to make a fortune!

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 59):
Imagine if AI MX didn't close fan latches of both engines of a A319. Forum will be all over AI. For BA it is a minor incident.

100% agree, the daily 787 MX problems, is getting old, yes it was a Mistake, someone left the oven on for too long, and maybe correct procedures were not put into action and the result was a situation where they had to use extinguishers, thus making a big issue for a mistake.... in the end the chicken and lasagna were overcooked, but since when we make reports of cuisine on coach?

TRB



The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
User currently onlinegarpd From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2603 posts, RR: 4
Reply 66, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2742 times:

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 59):

If it is doing so well why it didn't go on an acquisition spree like LH did. Why it merged itself with IB and became a Spanish company.

BA doesn't need to buy anything. They are doing well concentrating on what they do best, instead of over extending themselves and putting themselves at risk.

It was IAG that bought IB as an addition their portfolio. There is no BA/IB merger. Last I checked IB continues to operate as IB with IB livery and identity. BA continues to operate and fly as BA.

You say DL are the top of your list, you realise they merged with Northwest, right? So by your own rules, DL must be a "barely surviving" airline?



arpdesign.wordpress.com
User currently offlinesankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 67, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2737 times:

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 64):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Airlines_Group

There was no IAG before merger. HQ may be in London, but it is a Spanish registered company. Just semantics, but you are the with no clue.

Having been involved in advising several airlines on mergers over the years, l think I can speak with some authority on this.

BA identified IB as a potential acquisition target. Just like AF sought out KL, and LH sought out OS. IB reciprocated the interest as long as it could maintain its own identity.

For that and other various reasons, including national sensibilities, union issues, and maintenance of bilateral rights, a standard acquisition was not the best path forward, neither was a full merger.

Therefore a parent company was established, IAG, that took ownership of the two airlines, but with each maintaining their separate brands, management, operating certificates, and rights. Again just like AF-KL and LH Group.

BA under the IAG umbrella acquired BMI from LH and merged it into BA; IAG acquired Vueling and is maintaining it as a third airline in its portfolio.

The fact that IAG has its Corp HQ in London and is registered in Spain is again a political move to keep both countries and constituent airlines happy. Nothing more, and nothing less. IAG could just as easily be called BA Group or BA-IB if they decided to name themselves along the lines on LH Group or AF-KL. But they determined it would be better to have a more neutral name. Just like the Latam Airlines Group decided later in Latin America, when LAN and TAM decided to come together, but maintain the two separate management teams, operating certificates, brands, and identities.

[Edited 2013-07-30 08:07:45]

User currently offlinesankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 68, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2721 times:

Quoting 777Boeing777 (Reply 61):
Sorry, but facts don't jive with your statements. Just the facts, that's all.

Could you point me to the facts you refer to?


User currently offline777Boeing777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2011, 111 posts, RR: 0
Reply 69, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2704 times:

Quoting sankaps (Reply 68):
Could you point me to the facts you refer to?

My suggestion would be to review the posts from a handful of threads you blessed with your presence. I found it utterly hilarious how once the FACTS were presented from the AAIB, you ............ disappeared from that thread. Weird.


User currently offlinesankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 70, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2662 times:

Quoting 777Boeing777 (Reply 69):
My suggestion would be to review the posts from a handful of threads you blessed with your presence. I found it utterly hilarious how once the FACTS were presented from the AAIB, you ............ disappeared from that thread. Weird.

Again, you are just making unsubstantiated statements. I continue to be VERY active on ALL of the threads relating to the ET fire event and other such incidents. Go back and check. I am sure there are some that WISH I disappear from those threads though, since I refuse to drink the "all is well, nothing to see here" Kool-Aid. Big grin

[Edited 2013-07-30 08:19:39]

User currently offline777Boeing777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2011, 111 posts, RR: 0
Reply 71, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2645 times:

Quoting sankaps (Reply 70):
since I refuse to drink the "all is well, nothing to see here" Kool-Aid.

   Ahh yeah, instead you've been brewing "the sky is falling" kool aid. Ok, Got it. Thanks for clearing that up for me.   


User currently offlinesankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 72, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2606 times:

Quoting 777Boeing777 (Reply 71):
Thanks for clearing that up for me.

Great, I'm glad that's clear! Also glad you are comfortable believing all of the smoke incidents on the 787 do not in any way suggest a pattern or relate to potential fire safety hazards, that they are just smoke and mirrors!  


User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 73, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2550 times:

Quoting 777Boeing777 (Reply 55):
If you're referring to UPS Flight 6, IIRC, returning to DXB was the only option. Where else could they have diverted to?
Quoting sankaps (Reply 56):

To Doha, which was closer at the point the emergency was declared.

They could also have turned to some Saudi airport while heading back to Dubai or even landed in Abu Dhabi.


User currently offline777Boeing777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2011, 111 posts, RR: 0
Reply 74, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2565 times:

Quoting sankaps (Reply 72):
Also glad you are comfortable believing all of the smoke incidents on the 787 do not in any way suggest a pattern or relate to potential fire safety hazards, that they are just smoke and mirrors!

The last time I checked, Boeing did not manufacture the galley units, just as they did not manufacture the ELT units, but once again, ....... it's the 787, and we just gotta demonize this aircraft, right?


No disrespect to the A330, but I guess you're comfortable with incidents like the one in the link, especially since at the time the A332 was a mature a/c, right? I am guessing you're not really comfortable flying at all, because no aircraft is immune to incidents.

http://www.theage.com.au/national/ex...tstar-a330-fire-20090611-c4yw.html


User currently offlinesankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 75, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2521 times:

Quoting 777Boeing777 (Reply 74):
The last time I checked, Boeing did not manufacture the galley units, just as they did not manufacture the ELT units, but once again, ....... it's the 787, and we just gotta demonize this aircraft, right?

Leaving the galley units aside as I have not at any point linked that to the 787, I am not going to get into this debate again here, it is being discussed in several other places where I am VERY active!  

Very comfortable flying the A330, and every other type made by Boeing, incidentally.


User currently offlineDTW2HYD From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 1677 posts, RR: 2
Reply 76, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2453 times:

Quoting sankaps (Reply 67):
For that and other various reasons, including national sensibilities, union issues, and maintenance of bilateral rights, a standard acquisition was not the best path forward, neither was a full merger.

Therefore a parent company was established, IAG, that took ownership of the two airlines, but with each maintaining their separate brands, management, operating certificates, and rights

So, what part of it made me clueless. If BA's 100% owned parent is a Spanish registered company, technically BA is a Spanish company. Doesn't matter where HQ is. We all know BA is a British Company, but my statement is 100% valid.

Going back to the topic, as I mentioned on several threads, there are no AI planes dropping from skies. It is relatively safe airline with experienced pilots and MX staff. If some one is having nightmares about falling AI birds, totally different topic.

What AI needs is a good Law and PR firms based in US. What Asiana did by threatening to sue TV Station/NTSB is the way to deal with defamation in western world.

When Business Insider/JACDEC showed AI as worst airline by counting fatalities from a 30 year old terror event, at the same time left out other airlines/events a threat of defamation law suit definitely would have helped.


User currently offlineSpeedbored From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2013, 221 posts, RR: 0
Reply 77, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2446 times:

Why oh why oh why does every single thread about one manufacturer's aircraft always have to descend into childish personal attacks and the inevitable attempts to rubbish the other manufacturers product.

This is a "discussion" forum. It is not an "agree with the Boeing fanboys" forum, nor is it an "agree with the Airbus fanboys" forum. Believe it or not, people are allowed to have opinions that might differ from your own.

If someone posts something that you don't like or disagree with, rather than resorting to childish bashing, groundless accusations of "having an agenda" or "fanboyism", or pointless attempts to say "the other manufacturer is worse", how about posting a calmly reasoned argument, based on intelligent thoughts and opinions, to refute what's being said?

I'd put money on the fact that many of the most respected members on here often disagree, sometimes strongly, with what other people post. But they didn't become the most respected members on here by responding with mud-slinging; it's because they post well considered responses to those posts. Many other people on here would do well to consider doing the same.


User currently offlinesankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 78, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2414 times:

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 76):
What AI needs is a good Law and PR firms based in US. What Asiana did by threatening to sue TV Station/NTSB is the way to deal with defamation in western world.

And how would that help with the negative coverage (most of it well deserved) it gets in its home country, India?

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 76):
So, what part of it made me clueless.

These parts below...

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 42):
BA is no longer the aviation leader it used to be. Another airline barely surviving.
Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 59):
As far as international ops goes QF is a paper airline.
Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 59):
So don't compare QF with real airlines
Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 59):
If it is doing so well why it didn't go on an acquisition spree like LH did. Why it merged itself with IB and became a Spanish company.
Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 76):
If BA's 100% owned parent is a Spanish registered company, technically BA is a Spanish company. Doesn't matter where HQ is. We all know BA is a British Company


User currently offlineSpeedbored From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2013, 221 posts, RR: 0
Reply 79, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2417 times:

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 76):
what part of it made me clueless

Well I have to admit that you're not helping your own cause when, within the space of a single paragraph, you state:

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 76):
BA is a Spanish company
Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 76):
BA is a British Company

 


User currently offlinecornutt From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 338 posts, RR: 1
Reply 80, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2229 times:

Quoting sankaps (Reply 58):
And it is a POV that is shared by many, including Boeing old-timers, incidentally.

On the other hand, I know a lot of McDonnell-Douglas old timers who feel like they got screwed when their stock was converted in the merger. You have to come up with a better rationale than lingering resentment.


User currently offlineDTW2HYD From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 1677 posts, RR: 2
Reply 81, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2158 times:

Quoting sankaps (Reply 78):

Let me explain slowly.

By effectively handing over its international ops to EK, QF became paper airline. There is no need compare with real airlines like AI.

Quoting Speedbored (Reply 79):

BA is a 100% UK subsidiary of a Spanish company. That makes it a Spanish company. Not something to brag about if your national carrier owned by a foreign company.


User currently offlineSpeedbored From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2013, 221 posts, RR: 0
Reply 82, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2075 times:

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 81):
That makes it a Spanish company

Well no, not necessarily.

Talking about the 'nationality' of a company in this way is actually pretty meaningless these days. Given that there's no standard definition of the nationality of a company, it's highly likely that different people will decide to use different definitions. Therefore any discussion about this sort of thing is largely pointless and definitely off-topic.

For example, a company's nationality could be based on:
1) The country in which the company concerned is incorporated
2) The country in which the company pays corporation tax
3) The nationality of the majority of its shareholders
4) The country in which its parent company is incorporated
5) Just about any other made-up definition.

My own preference is to use the country in which the company (or more accurately, companies, as BA actually consists of more than one company) concerned was first legally incorporated, which would make BA British. After all, if a Spanish person purchases a house in London, it doesn't suddenly become a Spanish house. Why should it be any different if a Spanish company takes ownership of a British company?

[Edited 2013-07-30 11:31:52]

User currently offlinesankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 83, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2022 times:

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 81):

Let me explain slowly.

Spare us the patronizing attitude.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 81):
By effectively handing over its international ops to EK, QF became paper airline. There is no need compare with real airlines like AI.

QF handed over something like one or two Europe destinations to EK as part of their strategic alliance. That to you equates "handing over its international ops to EK"? The Qantas group operates 310 aircraft, that to you is a paper airline?

As opposed the a "real" airline like Air India and its subsidiaries that operate 128 aircraft (and most of them came from the merger with IC) and lives off of massive government bailouts and taxpayer support?

I guess there is no point in arguing with someone that just shoots off without checking basic facts.

Quoting Speedbored (Reply 82):
After all, if a Spanish person purchases a house in London, it doesn't suddenly become a Spanish house. Why should it be any different if a Spanish company takes ownership of a British company?

Exactly! No more than Jaguar Land Rover is an Indian company now that it is owned by Tata (something many Indians love to believe).


User currently offlineTheRedBaron From Mexico, joined Mar 2005, 2186 posts, RR: 8
Reply 84, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1996 times:

I thought this thread was about ovens overheating and possible fire on a 787.... but it is more less about acquisitions mergers and nationality...

SpeedBored said it quite clearly in the other thread.... this attitude is getting the best of Anet.

Now back on topic.

Does anyone has info if the Aircraft will be off duty or the amount of damage perpetrated by the oven?

Regards

TRB



The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
User currently offlinesankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 85, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1997 times:

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 81):
BA is a 100% UK subsidiary of a Spanish company. That makes it a Spanish company.
Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 76):
We all know BA is a British Company

Still trying to figure out the statements above!

Incidentally, IAG's primary listing is in London, its management team sits in its corporate HQ in London, it larger hub is London, and more of its shareholding is of UK citizenship than Spanish. Incorporation in Spain was purely a symbolic move to placate Spanish sentiments given that the never center and main base of IAG was clearly going to be London.


User currently offlineDTW2HYD From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 1677 posts, RR: 2
Reply 86, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1968 times:

Quoting sankaps (Reply 85):

Foreign investment 101: Ownership is decided by where the company is REGISTERED and PERCENTAGE of ownership. Where company is HQed, citizenship of CEOs/BODs doesn't matter. Here are few examples.

BA a 100% owned subsidiary of IAG (A Spanish Company)
Jaguar Land Rover a 100% owned subsidiary of Tata Motors (An Indian Company)
Augusta Westland a 100% subsidiary of Finmeccanica (An Italian Company)
Vauxhall Motors a 100% subsidiary of Adam Opel AG(A German Company) itself a 100% subsidiary of General Motors(An American Company)

All are in UK, none of them are British owned. Whatever is the reason, BA agreed to register IAG as a Spanish company, that is win for IB, until the merger is dissolved.

For same reason India won't allow more than 49% in certain sectors.

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 84):
Does anyone has info if the Aircraft will be off duty or the amount of damage perpetrated by the oven?

Oven was removed and aircraft returned to Delhi on scheduled service.


User currently offlineSpeedbored From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2013, 221 posts, RR: 0
Reply 87, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1939 times:

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 86):
Foreign investment 101: Ownership is decided by where the company is REGISTERED and PERCENTAGE of ownership. Where company is HQed, citizenship of CEOs/BODs doesn't matter. Here are few examples.

Maybe if you put as much effort into reviewing your posts for grammar, punctuation and clarity as you seem to able to put into making them patronising then we'd be able to better understand what you're trying to say. I've struggled to fully comprehend many of the posts you've made in this thread so far as they are pretty garbled and contradictory. For example, in the quote above, you claim ownership to be decided on where the company is registered. What on earth has where the company is 'registered' (I presume you mean incorporated) got to do with who owns it?

So, in a hope to stop all this way off topic nonsense, can we now just agree that British Airways is a British company wholly owned by a Spanish company and be done with it?


User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2741 posts, RR: 4
Reply 88, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1868 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

This thread has run its course and will be locked to further posts. All posts made after the lock will be removed for housekeeping purposes only.
Regards,
Pat



You push down on that yoke, the houses get bigger, you pull back on the yoke, the houses get bigger- Ken Foltz
User currently offlinePW100 From Netherlands, joined Jan 2002, 2350 posts, RR: 11
Reply 89, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1764 times:

Quoting 777Boeing777 (Reply 74):
The last time I checked, Boeing did not manufacture the galley units, just as they did not manufacture the ELT units, but once again, ....... it's the 787, and we just gotta demonize this aircraft, right

Ah, you're definitely on to something here. This must be why Boeing is subcontracting so much of the plane, so they can be held responsible. I guess you should have take over Randy's job. On second thought, you must be working for Boeing Warranty . . .

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 86):
All are in UK, none of them are British owned. Whatever is the reason, BA agreed to register IAG as a Spanish company, that is win for IB, until the merger is dissolved

That line of thinking makes Airbus/EADS a Dutch company then. You'd better rush over to Toulouse and Hamburg and inform the French and Germans.

PW100



Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
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