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F9 Sold?  
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7040 posts, RR: 13
Posted (1 year 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 24846 times:

This is strangely worded. It sort of says it is sold without saying to who and saying it is contingent on a bunch of other things that they refuse to talk about. Par for the course I guess...

http://skift.com/2013/07/26/republic...m-sheet-to-sell-frontier-airlines/

195 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7040 posts, RR: 13
Reply 1, posted (1 year 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 24692 times:

OK, on the conference call it says it is a "non-binding" agreement. So, it means nothing yet...

User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2741 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (1 year 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 24538 times:

i guess that it's not just so easy to sell an airline these days.... although maybe after all of the Ts have been crossed and the Is have been dotted well..... maybe then an announcement could have been made.......

 


User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7040 posts, RR: 13
Reply 3, posted (1 year 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 24506 times:

Quoting point2point (Reply 2):

i guess that it's not just so easy to sell an airline these days.... although maybe after all of the Ts have been crossed and the Is have been dotted well..... maybe then an announcement could have been made.......

It is such a loose announcement that I'm not sure any means any more than what they said 3 months ago or 6 months ago.


User currently offlineSPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2241 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (1 year 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 24373 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 3):
It is such a loose announcement that I'm not sure any means any more than what they said 3 months ago or 6 months ago.

Yes, they've become the kings of flopped "big news coming".

KOA Radio in Denver just reported the same thing on the 11am news report.



I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
User currently offlineUA787DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 420 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 24224 times:

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 4):
KOA Radio in Denver just reported the same thing on the 11am news report.

Saw that too.

Any speculations?


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24876 posts, RR: 46
Reply 6, posted (1 year 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 23852 times:

Back in April it was mentioned the two interested parties were Indigo Partners LLC and Anchorage Capital Group.

Phoenix based Indigo headed by former America West Chairman is the one with much wider airline experience, especially with the LCC sector. (Spirit, Wizz, Tiger, Volaris, etc.)


To me the bigger comments of interest made in the article were:

Bedford noted that Republic has made it an overriding goal to sell Frontier in 2013, and plans to discuss the matter with shareholders in September. He added that Republic is not putting the resources into Frontier to take it to the next level.

If the sale does not go through, then management will discuss with shareholders “where we go from there,” Bedford said.


Sounds a bit ominous....



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinedrgmobile From Canada, joined Aug 2006, 611 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 23762 times:

Third party agreements sounds like it could be unions -- Is Frontier unionized? Or significant creditors. I always thought Spirit made sense for teaming up with them.

User currently offlinesunking737 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2038 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (1 year 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 23633 times:

I wonder if the Dickie Birds are saying anything or is it being kept a secret??.

If Republic moved their annual meeting back sounds like they may vote on the sale of Frontier. Stay tune haters you will have news soon...LOL. Good luck to all the Frontier folks.



Just an MSPAVGEEK
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7040 posts, RR: 13
Reply 9, posted (1 year 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 23464 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 6):
To me the bigger comments of interest made in the article were:
Bedford noted that Republic has made it an overriding goal to sell Frontier in 2013, and plans to discuss the matter with shareholders in September. He added that Republic is not putting the resources into Frontier to take it to the next level.

If the sale does not go through, then management will discuss with shareholders “where we go from there,” Bedford said.
Sounds a bit ominous....

I missed that, but I agree that implies a shutdown if the sale is not completed...but who knows.

Quoting drgmobile (Reply 7):
Third party agreements sounds like it could be unions -- Is Frontier unionized? Or significant creditors. I always thought Spirit made sense for teaming up with them.

Usually in something like this the 3rd parties are the financing for the deal, but since this thing is non-binding I would not attach much to this. This term sheet may have been in place 6 months ago. Did they say it was recently signed anywhere? I do not think that since it is non-binding that it is "material" and required for disclosure.

A term sheet is little more than a price tag on a can of peaches.

Quoting sunking737 (Reply 8):
If Republic moved their annual meeting back sounds like they may vote on the sale of Frontier. Stay tune haters you will have news soon...LOL. Good luck to all the Frontier folks.

Not sure what that means. It implies something more than a non-binding agreement would.


User currently onlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5453 posts, RR: 29
Reply 10, posted (1 year 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 23344 times:

Someone must be watching the numbers at NK and G4 and are wanting a piece of the action. Bedford is going to want his best return possible for his mainline excursion. To me, one big unresolved issue is DEN. Would an ULCC want a true hub, and if not, how do you get Frontier, without paying more than you want, for more than you need?

I have nothing against WN, but it'll be a bitter pill to swallow to see them succeed in booting Frontier from Denver, however it ends up happening.

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlinerampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3109 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (1 year 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 22989 times:

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 10):
To me, one big unresolved issue is DEN. Would an ULCC want a true hub, and if not, how do you get Frontier, without paying more than you want, for more than you need?

I have nothing against WN, but it'll be a bitter pill to swallow to see them succeed in booting Frontier from Denver, however it ends up happening.

If F9 becomes a twin of NK (which it is in many respects), NK's injection into DFW, CHI, DTW, LAS, and DEN seems to make little difference to the existing major carriers there, either that or they can't do much about NK's establishment. F9 could do the same if/when it gains even more mass and momentum. But they need to be growing and staying rather than shrinking and retreating. At any rate, I think their missions are different enough.

And maybe it is NK that is the rumored investor, and that would make some sense already in DEN.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 6):
Back in April it was mentioned the two interested parties were Indigo Partners LLC and Anchorage Capital Group.

Phoenix based Indigo headed by former America West Chairman is the one with much wider airline experience, especially with the LCC sector. (Spirit, Wizz, Tiger, Volaris, etc.)

I had to look this up because you mentioning America West, my first thought was that it was Ed Beauvais, and wouldn't that be ironic given his loss of WestPac to a board of directors who attempted to merge with infant Frontier 2.0. But my wild speculation is off, It turns out to be Dr. William Franke, according to Bloomberg, and it mentions his CEO-ship of USAirways but not America West, though someone out there can refresh my memory or correct it. I'm wary of CEOs who go by Dr. when the doctorate is an honorary one from a second tier state university.

And lookie there, Franke is chairman of the board at Spirit. It seems to be falling into place, unless if falls apart.

Interesting, I see Bloomberg has corrected that Dr. title in the last hour. It's now Mr. Franke. Weird. I'm less wary now, but more wary of Bloomberg News.

-Rampart


User currently offlinestlgph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9303 posts, RR: 25
Reply 12, posted (1 year 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 22892 times:

Quoting rampart (Reply 11):
Interesting, I see Bloomberg has corrected that Dr. title in the last hour. It's now Mr. Franke. Weird. I'm less wary now, but more wary of Bloomberg News.

The sourcing which came into Bloomberg was wrong. Bloomberg appropriately made a correction.



Eternal darkness we all should dread. It's hard to party when you're dead.
User currently offlineF9animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5001 posts, RR: 28
Reply 13, posted (1 year 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 22804 times:

Bedford pretty much sums it up. He is not putting any resources into F9 to take it to the next level. If that does not raise eyebrows, then I don't know what else can. That alone tells me that Bedford is pretty much finished with his experiment. As for someone buying F9? I am hopeful, but not confident. If F9 was consistently profitable, then I would be all warm and fuzzy.


I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6712 posts, RR: 32
Reply 14, posted (1 year 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 22701 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 6):
If the sale does not go through, then management will discuss with shareholders “where we go from there,” Bedford said.

Sounds a bit ominous....

Agreed. And it would seem to diminish Republic's negotiating leverage with potential buyers. But I suppose the parent company's interest in selling F9 has been no secret for at least a year.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 10):
I have nothing against WN, but it'll be a bitter pill to swallow to see them succeed in booting Frontier from Denver, however it ends up happening.

Obviously WN liked what it saw enough to want to buy the company and keep a big chunk of the staff -- but that was not meant to be.


User currently offlineusflyguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 906 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 22503 times:

Quoting ScottB (Reply 14):
Obviously WN liked what it saw enough to want to buy the company and keep a big chunk of the staff -- but that was not meant to be.

What assets does F9 have now? Anyone else think NK could be trying to buy it for the planes only?



My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
User currently offlinenuggetsyl From United States of America, joined May 2006, 213 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 22356 times:

Ok my guess is jetblue will buy F9. But I am clearly no expert.

User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5370 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (1 year 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 22359 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 3):
It is such a loose announcement that I'm not sure any means any more than what they said 3 months ago or 6 months ago.

The agreement probably includes a non-disclosure agreement and allows the unnamed party to perform a due diligence examination of Frontier's books. Either side can walk away: Mr. Anonymous, if he doesn't like what he sees, or Republic, if they get a better offer.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinerampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3109 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (1 year 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 22169 times:

Quoting nuggetsyl (Reply 16):

Ok my guess is jetblue will buy F9. But I am clearly no expert.

Unlikely at this point. A few years ago, maybe they were similar, but they are on divergent paths now. Jetblue wouldn't benefit from anything but aircraft orders and a bigger presence in DEN, but they haven't gone for a bigger presence anywhere in the middle of the country, yet, and DEN would not be the best place for that, in a Jetblue model.


User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2129 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (1 year 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 22105 times:

I doubt another airline is going to buy F9, it is likely going to be a private equity firm (like the aforementioned Indigo Partners).

User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7072 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (1 year 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 21978 times:

Quoting nuggetsyl (Reply 16):
Ok my guess is jetblue will buy F9. But I am clearly no expert.

Why buy with all the associated cost if as it looks now, there is the potental that the airline will "go away"?
Sit on the side lines and see what happens, much cheaper.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24876 posts, RR: 46
Reply 21, posted (1 year 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 21942 times:

As far as what the purchaser of F9 potentially really gets, its a brand and any intrinsic value behind it.

They really are not getting anything physically as the entire fleet is either leased or mortgage. Buildings and airport facilities are on leases. There is a shrinking employee pool as airport handling has now been farmed out.

F9 is not the typical airline that has a bevy of assets that can be valued in the typical sense.

Its really a name and brand and whatever value that drives this as an ongoing business enterprise to a prospective purchaser.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13517 posts, RR: 62
Reply 22, posted (1 year 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 21895 times:
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Quoting LAXintl (Reply 21):
As far as what the purchaser of F9 potentially really gets, its a brand and any intrinsic value behind it.

Which begs the question - what Is it that Indigo is seeing in terms of potential value that other parties are not?



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlinewjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5119 posts, RR: 22
Reply 23, posted (1 year 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 21883 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 21):
They really are not getting anything physically as the entire fleet is either leased or mortgage. Buildings and airport facilities are on leases. There is a shrinking employee pool as airport handling has now been farmed out.

You're getting a going concern that has procedures, trained people, and an active operation.

That's hardly just buying a brand.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 24, posted (1 year 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 21837 times:
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Quoting Polot (Reply 19):
I doubt another airline is going to buy F9, it is likely going to be a private equity firm (like the aforementioned Indigo Partners).

  

The answer to the OP's question is - no.

Frontier has not been sold nor has any official at Republic (or Frontier) suggested that it has been sold. The process has simply moved to the next - and logical - stage. CEO Siegel, in a subsequent letter to the staff, sounded more chipper than he has for a while, but nothing is carved in granite, and sure, it could all fall apart.

Despite the embargo on questions about the Frontier sale, a couple of interesting pieces of trivia came out of the cc regarding the forward Frontier business plan - which is what they are actually selling. That - predictably - the Airbus order would be transferred to Frontier and that - less predictably - they presently assume that Frontier will resume growth mode next year, 2014.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 6):
Sounds a bit ominous....

Well, mayhap. I'm not sure what else he could say, though. If the BOD, on behalf of the shareholders, has required the sale, the BOD needs to decide on whatever Plan B it wants - on behalf of the shareholders.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 22):
Which begs the question - what Is it that Indigo is seeing in terms of potential value that other parties are not?

Is it Indigo? It may be, but I'm not prepared to put money on it yet.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently onlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5453 posts, RR: 29
Reply 25, posted (1 year 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 22245 times:

Indigo would be getting a going concern that is already on the road to ULCC-hood. It might be enough to get them to bite - who knows? If so, though, they must see a bright future for the model, be willing to invest capital, and be hoping to perhaps sell part/all down the road.

Otherwise, why bother?

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24876 posts, RR: 46
Reply 26, posted (1 year 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 22207 times:

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 23):
You're getting a going concern that has procedures, trained people, and an active operation.

Which is what I said below.

But besides that its a paper enterprise. Nothing real hard you can hold and say its owned.

Also once you pull off the Republic overhead, I am curious to see what the true financial picture of F9 would be.

Corporate overhead is shared, and F9 benefits in other ways thanks to RAH better credit and purchasing power. I know some vendor agreements are via RAH and F9 benefits as a result of being an add-on essentially to the large volume RAH generates already.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 21):
Its really a name and brand and whatever value that drives this as an ongoing business enterprise to a prospective purchaser.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7040 posts, RR: 13
Reply 27, posted (1 year 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 22395 times:

Quoting rampart (Reply 11):
If F9 becomes a twin of NK (which it is in many respects)
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 10):
Someone must be watching the numbers at NK and G4 and are wanting a piece of the action.

Yes, but NK had a 16% operating margin in the quarter. F9 had a 4%. No reason to buy them.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 13):
Bedford pretty much sums it up. He is not putting any resources into F9 to take it to the next level. If that does not raise eyebrows, then I don't know what else can. That alone tells me that Bedford is pretty much finished with his experiment.

I think you are right which does not square with this...

Quoting mariner (Reply 24):
they presently assume that Frontier will resume growth mode next year, 2014.

...the two are completely contradictory. I'm going to take the "assume" as a waffle word that means not to take that at face value.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 25):
Indigo would be getting a going concern that is already on the road to ULCC-hood. It might be enough to get them to bite - who knows?
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 22):
Which begs the question - what Is it that Indigo is seeing in terms of potential value that other parties are not?
Quoting ScottB (Reply 14):
Agreed. And it would seem to diminish Republic's negotiating leverage with potential buyers. But I suppose the parent company's interest in selling F9 has been no secret for at least a year.

Well, exactly. There is only one reason for Indigo which is invested in Spirit to buy F9...to get them out of the way of Spirit. By implying that RJET won't keep F9 going they take even that justification away.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 14):
Obviously WN liked what it saw enough to want to buy the company and keep a big chunk of the staff -- but that was not meant to be.

More and more it seems like that would have been the best outcome, but spilt milk...

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 15):
What assets does F9 have now? Anyone else think NK could be trying to buy it for the planes only?

Nothing really. I used to say gates at DEN, but not even really that. WN had little trouble getting as many as they wanted.

Quoting rampart (Reply 18):
Unlikely at this point.
Quoting nuggetsyl (Reply 16):
Ok my guess is jetblue will buy F9. But I am clearly no expert.

I give that a 0.5%. Unless something else crazy happens where AA gives B6 another hub and they need airplanes quickly, I grant that a zero likelihood. The direction F9 is going is the antithesis of the direction B6 is going and DEN is worthless to B6.

Quoting Polot (Reply 19):

I doubt another airline is going to buy F9, it is likely going to be a private equity firm (like the aforementioned Indigo Partners).

I doubt it is anybody controlling Spirit, but I agree it is not an airline. I suspect it is not somebody who plans to operate F9 long term which just creates new uncertainty.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 26):
Which is what I said below.

But besides that its a paper enterprise. Nothing real hard you can hold and say its owned.

Here's the problem with the fleet. There was a time when their fleet was valuable. It's long past. Their fleet is now old and the new NEO aircraft will obsolete the F9 fleet. There is really no reason to take their planes. Spirit has a ton of planes coming and just ordered more. That would not have happened if they were buying F9. The CMO of NK (who created their whole schtick) just left and I think also the CFO, there is no way in that void they just made any kind of commitment to buy F9 even non-binding.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 28, posted (1 year 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 22273 times:
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Quoting enilria (Reply 27):
I'm going to take the "assume" as a waffle word that means not to take that at face value.

Of course you would. LOL.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently onlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5453 posts, RR: 29
Reply 29, posted (1 year 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 22080 times:

Enilria, if F9 had a 16% operating margin, they wouldn't be for sale today. Bedford would have done the spin-off or whatever by now. But - they don't, so here we sit. If someone sees potential in todays Frontier, then they just might bite when the operating margin is at 4% because when they get it to 16% they will make their money back in a sale.

If Indigo wanted to get rid of Frontier, and they didn't see potential for Frontier to succeed, they wouldn't spend good money buying them when they could wait for the inevitable collapse. This tells me that perhaps there is more potential for Frontier than some here would believe, even if it's just modest profitability.

Perhaps the fear that Indigo has in your scenario is that Frontier just might hang on for years to come, creating grief for NK even though they seem to not really be identical. Ironically, that shows that Frontier is still relevant. There's joy in that revelation for some, and disappointment for others.

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2129 posts, RR: 1
Reply 30, posted (1 year 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 21734 times:

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 29):
Enilria, if F9 had a 16% operating margin, they wouldn't be for sale today. Bedford would have done the spin-off or whatever by now.

If F9 had a 16% operating margin Bedford wouldn't be selling them in the first place.


User currently offlineLV From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 1992 posts, RR: 0
Reply 31, posted (1 year 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 21660 times:

It's DL.... DL is buying F9 just to get the planes and move it's hub from SLC to DEN.   

User currently onlineBeardown91737 From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 510 posts, RR: 0
Reply 32, posted (1 year 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 21246 times:

Quoting LV (Reply 31):
It's DL

I was thinking it was US to fill the UA codeshares they are walking away from.



135 hrs PIC (mostly PA-28) - not current. Landings at MDW, PIA, JAN.
User currently offlineF9animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5001 posts, RR: 28
Reply 33, posted (1 year 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 20922 times:

I am hopeful F9 gets bought by a competent group. The main hope is to see Siegel get kicked to the curb, and Bedford a distant memory. I had such high hopes when RAH got Frontier. However, after seeing how terrible things have been run, I gave up hope. And when Bedford handed Siegel out of all people the job, I about puked. Siegel has a proven track record of destroying airlines, and he certainly has done plenty more damage to F9. I dislike Menke big time, but he had a much better idea on how to run F9.


I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 34, posted (1 year 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 20584 times:
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Quoting Polot (Reply 30):
If F9 had a 16% operating margin Bedford wouldn't be selling them in the first place.

Be interesting to see what happens if Frontier hits the 8-10% margin they are estimating for Q3.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 33):
Siegel has a proven track record of destroying airlines, and he certainly has done plenty more damage to F9.

Which airlines has he destroyed?

And if your reply is US Airways, I would remind you of the roles played by Lakefield and Bronner, and the unions, in that.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 33):
I dislike Menke big time, but he had a much better idea on how to run F9.

Chapter 11 was certainly one way of doing it, but there may be many at Pinnacle who disagree with you.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinen7371f From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1690 posts, RR: 12
Reply 35, posted (1 year 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 20542 times:
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Quoting enilria (Reply 9):
I missed that, but I agree that implies a shutdown if the sale is not completed...but who knows.

Boy lost a ton of respect from all your postings with this comment. Idiotic. There's nothing in his comment that implies anything.


User currently offlinecschleic From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 1246 posts, RR: 0
Reply 36, posted (1 year 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 20534 times:

Quoting LV (Reply 31):
It's DL.... DL is buying F9 just to get the planes and move it's hub from SLC to DEN

Then merge it with AS. As soon as DL was mentioned, there had to be an AS comment!
 

Now back to the topic....


User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1954 posts, RR: 0
Reply 37, posted (1 year 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 20477 times:
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Quoting F9animal (Reply 33):
I am hopeful F9 gets bought by a competent group.

Unfortunately, it looks like your best shots are investors that have invested with Spirit and Wizzair. While I am not familiar with Wizz Air, I do know that Spirit while it makes money it very much lacking in quality and customer service. I believe it was Spirit CEO Ben Baldanza who said in regards to a customer complaint something to the effect of "He'll come crawling back when he wants to save a buck".

I am hoping that Frontier is able to find a good formula where they do go towards a ULCC model but doesn't go as far as Spirit does. I don't mind paying for a drink, paying for my luggage or even a carry-on as long as the price is a decent savings. I don't like sardine like seat pitch (not that the majors are anything to write home about), being charged a convenience fee because I didn't go to the airport (even though it probably cost them more to process me with a real person) and policies that reflect an attitude towards the customer as Mr. Baldanza. .

I wish you and all the other "different animals" the best and I hope that I can continue to use you guys out of TTN and ILG for awhile.



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3056 posts, RR: 1
Reply 38, posted (1 year 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 19485 times:

If AS didn't fly all Boeing metal I can't help but think about AS as a possible suitor for F9. DEN is valuable real estate and the perfect airport slightly left of the mid continent center line for AS continued growth in the lower 48. From DEN the possibilities are endless.

Three of F9 best markets are DEN-SEA, DEN-DCA and DEN-ANC The last time I checked AS offered three daily flights between SEA-DEN-SEA.

I think the hybrid TTN focus city is being under estimated too. A sole source carrier in a catchment area of roughly 3.5 million people. The framework is there. I also think TTN is currently under utilized. Keeping the shorter runway in mind I can easily see 15 daily flights from TTN.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3126 posts, RR: 5
Reply 39, posted (1 year 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 19369 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 17):
The agreement probably includes a non-disclosure agreement and allows the unnamed party to perform a due diligence examination of Frontier's books. Either side can walk away: Mr. Anonymous, if he doesn't like what he sees, or Republic, if they get a better offer

Yes I think AQ fell for this trick by Mesa, and look at how that went for them.



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User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7040 posts, RR: 13
Reply 40, posted (1 year 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 19283 times:

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 29):

I keep saying this. It's a 4% OPERATING MARGIN. That's a loss. Unfortunately, companies have to pay interest and taxes. If you look at Republic's overall results the Net Margin is if memory serves 8 points lower than the operating margin. That's normal. That means F9 lost money. I keep saying that AMR reported an operating profit in the quarter before CH11. Net is what is important.

Quoting Polot (Reply 30):

True, although he'd have bigger labor troubles.

Quoting mariner (Reply 34):

I have no doubt they will have an 8-10% operating margin in 3q, but as I keep pointing out that is only a break even result on net margin in their best quarter. Nobody cares about operating margin.

Quoting n7371f (Reply 35):

So, then what does Bedford mean when he says he won't invest any more in F9? It means they can't take any more aircraft, for example. It seems like a pretty bleak comment.

Unless the ULCC model starts producing a positive annual NET margin they are unsellable.


User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1954 posts, RR: 0
Reply 41, posted (1 year 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 19020 times:
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Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 38):
I also think TTN is currently under utilized. Keeping the shorter runway in mind I can easily see 15 daily flights from TTN.

After the terminal renovations are done, TTN is going to have atleast 2 gates, which means that they should be able to handle 2 flights boarding at the same time. So an increase is possible from a terminal standpoint.



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineOB1504 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 3307 posts, RR: 9
Reply 42, posted (1 year 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 18927 times:

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 37):
While I am not familiar with Wizz Air, I do know that Spirit while it makes money it very much lacking in quality and customer service. I believe it was Spirit CEO Ben Baldanza who said in regards to a customer complaint something to the effect of "He'll come crawling back when he wants to save a buck".

Baldanza's right, though. The financial returns speak for themselves.

That being said, I flew NK last night and we had a 3-hour delay due to a late inbound aircraft. Considering the attitudes of some of the passengers (who were upset to begin with because they were flying NK), the agents and flight attendants were saints for how they put up with it. It was on par with the service I received from AA on my outbound flight, though I guess that doesn't mean as much as it used to.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 43, posted (1 year 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 18922 times:
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Quoting enilria (Reply 40):
I have no doubt they will have an 8-10% operating margin in 3q, but as I keep pointing out that is only a break even result on net margin in their best quarter. Nobody cares about operating margin.

Yes, you keep saying it. They keep saying income.

Quoting enilria (Reply 40):
So, then what does Bedford mean when he says he won't invest any more in F9? It means they can't take any more aircraft, for example.

In that case, I guess the Airbus NEO order would go away. I'm not sure that will happen.

mariner

[Edited 2013-07-26 19:30:30]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17358 posts, RR: 46
Reply 44, posted (1 year 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 18499 times:

Quoting F9animal (Reply 33):
And when Bedford handed Siegel out of all people the job, I about puked. Siegel has a proven track record of destroying airlines, and he certainly has done plenty more damage to F9. I dislike Menke big time, but he had a much better idea on how to run F9.

Who would you like to see run F9? And separately, who is competent and would want to run F9? That'd be a fascinating Venn diagram.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5370 posts, RR: 7
Reply 45, posted (1 year 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 18420 times:

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 39):
Yes I think AQ fell for this trick by Mesa, and look at how that went for them.

Is Republic as desperate as Aloha was? I don't know; but that's the risk you take. Riskier maybe if Ohrstein is the one knocking at the door, but still it's always a risk.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinemtnwest1979 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 2432 posts, RR: 1
Reply 46, posted (1 year 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 18383 times:
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No, no. It will be history repeating itself. PEOPLExpress will buy Frontier......  


"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1954 posts, RR: 0
Reply 47, posted (1 year 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 18075 times:
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Quoting OB1504 (Reply 42):
Baldanza's right, though. The financial returns speak for themselves.

No they do make money, no doubt about it, but I think its sad how people put up with poor treatment just to save a buck. I don't fly Spirit for that reason, if Frontier were to go down that road, I'd stop using them even though TTN is more convenient for me.



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently onlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5453 posts, RR: 29
Reply 48, posted (1 year 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 17859 times:

Quoting Polot (Reply 30):
If F9 had a 16% operating margin Bedford wouldn't be selling them in the first place.

..

I started to type that but then retracted because I assume that the end game all along was that Frontier would be profitable and that Republic would float some of it to another investor to recoup their investment.

Quoting enilria (Reply 40):
I keep saying this. It's a 4% OPERATING MARGIN.

Well, THANKS for putting it in CAPITAL LETTERS so I DIDN'T MISS IT. That was HELPFUL.

Regardless, they are doing better than they were. They are probably on a course to profitability based on their new excursions and more profit oriented route decisions. Whether it works or not is up to the numbers.

Quoting enilria (Reply 40):
I have no doubt they will have an 8-10% operating margin in 3q, but as I keep pointing out that is only a break even result on net margin in their best quarter. Nobody cares about operating margin.

Do you have another number we can use to compare then? Something that relates to the quarterly results released by other carriers recently?

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlineKC135R From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 725 posts, RR: 4
Reply 49, posted (1 year 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 17656 times:

According to this article, maybe Indigo Partners, a Spirit shareholder:

http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/ne...er%20(Denver%20Business%20Journal)


User currently offlinedwightm From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 64 posts, RR: 0
Reply 50, posted (1 year 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 17004 times:
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Any remote chance of VX looking at this deal? DEN might be an additional attractive hub for VX. Both fly essentially the same aircraft. It would give VX some new gates. VX itself has yet to turn a profit, but investors are hanging in so far. Maybe adding F9 could enhance VX offerings and VX could structure a deal to get F9 off Republic's hands.

User currently offlinesccutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5490 posts, RR: 28
Reply 51, posted (1 year 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 14333 times:

Seems to me their best chance is someone buying the airline for its operating certificate.

---

I know it cold have turned out differently (it still may), but the virulent objection to the acquisition by Southwest appears now to have been misplaced.



...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
User currently offlineFRNT787 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1319 posts, RR: 15
Reply 52, posted (1 year 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 14219 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 40):
It means they can't take any more aircraft, for example

They just took another aircraft a week ago. Yes many left the fleet over the last year. But that was a known part of the restructuring. Their fleet plan shows another delivery in Q4, with 2 E190s leaving. The plan was stated as growth for next year on the conference call. You seem to constantly believe he is a liar, so you probably doubt that.

I take his statement to mean that the board will not invest heavily into the company. They dont want to "take it to the next level". If frontier is profitable enough to pay for more A320s (leased) then by all means let them.



"We have a right to fail, because failure makes us grow" --Glenn Beck
User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2129 posts, RR: 1
Reply 53, posted (1 year 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 14020 times:

Quoting dwightm (Reply 50):
Any remote chance of VX looking at this deal? DEN might be an additional attractive hub for VX.

A heavily competitive hub like DEN isn't something VX needs right now, and the rest of F9's operations (i.e. TTN) don't really fit with VX's model.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17358 posts, RR: 46
Reply 54, posted (1 year 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 13868 times:

Quoting dwightm (Reply 50):

Any remote chance of VX looking at this deal? DEN might be an additional attractive hub for VX. Both fly essentially the same aircraft. It would give VX some new gates. VX itself has yet to turn a profit, but investors are hanging in so far. Maybe adding F9 could enhance VX offerings and VX could structure a deal to get F9 off Republic's hands.


Such a premium hub . Clearly loads of DEN passengers value perks like IFE, high end meals, and first class



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineawacsooner From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 1883 posts, RR: 1
Reply 55, posted (1 year 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 13682 times:

I really wish WN would have ended up with F9...while I would miss the critters, at least the employees would've been taken care of, instead of this complete and utter **ckdance that Republic has thrown at them the past few years.

User currently offline93Sierra From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 417 posts, RR: 0
Reply 56, posted (1 year 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 13442 times:

Would WN been happier wih F9 vs Airtran?

User currently offlineFrontier14 From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 186 posts, RR: 0
Reply 57, posted (1 year 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 13433 times:

Quoting awacsooner (Reply 55):

Unfortunately for Frontier, SW was not going to take all the employees, only a percentage and leaving the remainder (junior hires) to the street. The pilot's opted to stay together and that along with a couple of other items sent the SW acquistion south. I am hopeful for Frontier in the future as are a number of us on the a.net board. Perhaps the fourth quarter will more clearly define the road ahead for Frontier. I for one remain optimistic.


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3056 posts, RR: 1
Reply 58, posted (1 year 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 13342 times:

Concur,

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 47):
but I think its sad how people put up with poor treatment just to save a buck. I don't fly Spirit for that reason, if Frontier were to go down that road, I'd stop using them

Concur, Although NK reminds me more of being a carrier built around gimmicks.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3056 posts, RR: 1
Reply 59, posted (1 year 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 13321 times:

RJET shares are tweaking higher in after hours trading on the BB non-announcement. http://data.cnbc.com/quotes/RJET up 4.14% after Friday's close.


Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13517 posts, RR: 62
Reply 60, posted (1 year 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 13242 times:
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Quoting dwightm (Reply 50):
Any remote chance of VX looking at this deal?

Two heads may generally be better than one, but not when both are stupid.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17358 posts, RR: 46
Reply 61, posted (1 year 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 13146 times:

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 60):
Two heads may generally be better than one, but not when both are stupid.

   I guess same goes for three and RP/YX/F9



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinewwtraveler99 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 293 posts, RR: 0
Reply 62, posted (1 year 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 12545 times:

Quoting Frontier14 (Reply 57):
Unfortunately for Frontier, SW was not going to take all the employees, only a percentage and leaving the remainder (junior hires) to the street.

True! But look where those employees are now that F9 has decided to contract out thier ground services (except for DEN, please correct if this is incorrect)

So yes at the time many were worried about a job. Many did not want to see "thier" airline disapper. As usual hindsight is 20/20. I would be curious how those same employees feel now? If they could go back and have a do over would they take their chances with Southwest?

Any current or former F9 employee, I welcome your thoughts on that issue.


WW


User currently offlineFRNT787 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1319 posts, RR: 15
Reply 63, posted (1 year 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 12232 times:

I wonder if the old frontier employees wish they hadn't been acquired by People Express. It makes just as much sense to hash that out as the "What if Southwest had gotten Frontier?". Southwest didn't acquire Frontier. Republic did. After all that was 4 years ago, and much has certainly changed.


"We have a right to fail, because failure makes us grow" --Glenn Beck
User currently offlineF9animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5001 posts, RR: 28
Reply 64, posted (1 year 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 12074 times:

wwtraveler99... I was against it, because I thought Republic would have taken Frontier to new heights. When I saw the route map combined with Midwest, I was in awe! Now....... I see what has happened, and experienced absolute misery during the transition. I witnessed total idiots in management come in. Most of the idiots came in the form of Midwest, and I now totally see why Midwest was close to failure. Dont get me wrong, I loved Midwest. But, they had some major idiots running the airline. Employee morale began a rapid drop, and Bedfords appearance in Undercover Boss brought some hope. However, Bedford never even did anything he promised. Everything has become broken, and the employees have been craped on enough.

So, having experienced it....... I wish we could have a do over. WN would have been a much better option. No question about it. I would have been much happier if I had gone to WN. Even if I had not gotten an offer, I would have not had to endure the hell Bedford has put the workers through. And now Siegel? That guy is a snake, and needs bodyguards because of what he did to us when I was with US.



I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently onlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5453 posts, RR: 29
Reply 65, posted (1 year 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 11971 times:

Quoting F9animal (Reply 64):
Even if I had not gotten an offer, I would have not had to endure the hell Bedford has put the workers through.

With respect, not having gotten an offer would have meant not being employed, which was already a tool in your arsenal if you so chose. I realize jobs don't grow on trees, but at some point if misery is how you describe your job, why not just take yourself out of the equation instead of letting someone else control you that way.

I don't mean that as "you" - F9animal, but rather "you" - as in, any employee. I have 30 employees. Some are not happy. I stopped feeling responsible for their happiness a long time ago because I realized that a) I'm not God; b) some people will never be happy; c) crap happens that is out of my control; and d) even if they have a legitimate gripe, at some point their job disatisfaction is affecting everyone else, many of whom were perfectly happy before.

I had a situation in a previous job where my direct supervisor was affecting my morale to a great extent. I vented to someone one day who shared that with my supervisor's supervisor, who then called me out on it (in a sense). I learned right then that I needed to make a choice - let my supervisor make me an unhappy, bitter employee, or take accountability for my own satisfaction. I chose the latter, which meant either staying and choosing to let go of their influence, or leave. I stayed, and found that my change in attitude through accepting accountability for my own situation made everything better. Had I left, that would have been fine, too. It isn't about the job controlling me, it's about me controlling me.

If you're unhappy, leave.

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlinemke717spotter From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 2443 posts, RR: 5
Reply 66, posted (1 year 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 11876 times:

Quoting F9animal (Reply 64):
Most of the idiots came in the form of Midwest, and I now totally see why Midwest was close to failure. Dont get me wrong, I loved Midwest. But, they had some major idiots running the airline.

I think they already started paving the wave for Bedford to replace Hoeksema (he was just a puppet in the latter stages I think) even before the buyout of YX was announced. They dumped the OO CRJs, the 717s, and replaced them with smaller Embraer jets from Republic. Then once Republic did away with the signature seating, best care cuisine, cookies, etc., there really wasn't much left that made YX stand out and I don't think anyone should be surprised that the morale dropped.



Will you watch the Cleveland Browns and the Detroit Lions on Sunday? Only if coach Eric Mangini resigned after a loss.
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7040 posts, RR: 13
Reply 67, posted (1 year 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 11617 times:

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 48):
Do you have another number we can use to compare then? Something that relates to the quarterly results released by other carriers recently?
Quoting mariner (Reply 43):
Quoting enilria (Reply 40):
I have no doubt they will have an 8-10% operating margin in 3q, but as I keep pointing out that is only a break even result on net margin in their best quarter. Nobody cares about operating margin.

Yes, you keep saying it. They keep saying income.

It's just they you trumpet a single quarter with a 10% operating margin as if it was a sign of success. What that adds up to is a significant annualized net loss. Nothing has really changed. The accounting is just not comparable.

Lets look at right before they filed for Chapter 11 in April 2008.
In 2Q2007 the reported a +1% operating margin they just reported a +4% for 2Q.
In 3Q2007 they had an operating margin of +7%. You are predicting +10% for 3Q2013.
In 1Q 2008 just a month before filing they reported a -9% and in 1Q2013 it was -7%.

So, at best, they are 3 points better than they were prior to filing for bankruptcy. I rest my case.

Quoting mariner (Reply 43):
Quoting enilria (Reply 40):
So, then what does Bedford mean when he says he won't invest any more in F9? It means they can't take any more aircraft, for example.

In that case, I guess the Airbus NEO order would go away. I'm not sure that will happen.

mariner

It was clearly a threat meaning something. Who is the threat directed at? The employees? It doesn't help sell it to say that.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 48):
They are probably on a course to profitability based on their new excursions and more profit oriented route decisions

In the 14 quarters since they exited Ch11 they have lost money in 64% of them on an operating basis.

Quoting FRNT787 (Reply 52):
They just took another aircraft a week ago. Yes many left the fleet over the last year. But that was a known part of the restructuring. Their fleet plan shows another delivery in Q4, with 2 E190s leaving. The plan was stated as growth for next year on the conference call. You seem to constantly believe he is a liar, so you probably doubt that.

I take his statement to mean that the board will not invest heavily into the company. They dont want to "take it to the next level". If frontier is profitable enough to pay for more A320s (leased) then by all means let them.

Well, letting two or whatever A320s go off lease and getting one used A320 isn't really investing...

Quoting 93Sierra (Reply 56):
Would WN been happier wih F9 vs Airtran?

YES, but the revisionist history is that WN just wanted to eliminate AirTran and never intended to have an operation as big in ATL as AirTran did. I think that's B.S. They would have been better off to eliminate F9 and get their revenue rather than give AirTran's to DL.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 64):
wwtraveler99... I was against it, because I thought Republic would have taken Frontier to new heights. When I saw the route map combined with Midwest, I was in awe! Now....... I see what has happened, and experienced absolute misery during the transition. I witnessed total idiots in management come in. Most of the idiots came in the form of Midwest, and I now totally see why Midwest was close to failure. Dont get me wrong, I loved Midwest. But, they had some major idiots running the airline. Employee morale began a rapid drop, and Bedfords appearance in Undercover Boss brought some hope. However, Bedford never even did anything he promised. Everything has become broken, and the employees have been craped on enough.

It's sad that so many others were duped into supporting this deal with Republic when even if even 50% now had job security at WN it would have been better.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 64):
So, having experienced it....... I wish we could have a do over. WN would have been a much better option.

Yep


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 68, posted (1 year 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 11559 times:
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Quoting enilria (Reply 67):
It's just they you trumpet a single quarter with a 10% operating margin as if it was a sign of success. What that adds up to is a significant annualized net loss. Nothing has really changed. The accounting is just not comparable.

When I - correctly - called the results of the auction before it happened, you (patronisingly) told me that I know nothing about accounting.

Since I am bored with the smack talk, I don't "trumpet" anything. I have not claimed future success, I have not claimed that they will achieve the 8-10% margin in Q3 and I have made no comment about the Q2 numbers.

You insist they lost money - the CEO has just told the staff that:

"...our profit margin improved from 3.8% last Q2 to 4.2% this year."

If you think he's speaking with forked tongue, or if you have any issue with that, take it up with the CEO, or the SEC or the DOJ, take it up with anyone but me.

I'm just the messenger.

mariner

[Edited 2013-07-28 15:55:17]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineFRNT787 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1319 posts, RR: 15
Reply 69, posted (1 year 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 11551 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 67):
Well, letting two or whatever A320s go off lease and getting one used A320 isn't really investing...

No A320s have left. A318s and high lease rate A319s have left. That sounds good to me.



"We have a right to fail, because failure makes us grow" --Glenn Beck
User currently offlineF9animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5001 posts, RR: 28
Reply 70, posted (1 year 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 11234 times:

I agree PlanesNTrains 110%. I did leave, as I could not bear it anymore. It was a very difficult decision, but I saw the writing on the wall. When Cliff V. would not look me in the eye during a meeting about RFP's that had gone out, I knew every station outside of DEN was screwed. He fumbled words, his pulse raised, and his skin flushed as I bombarded him with questions. He told us not to worry, and that he could justify F9 staffed stations outside of DEN. I knew he was being dishonest, and that was NEVER Cliff. When I boarded the plane in DEN, I felt sick to my stomach. I warned every employee what would happen in the next year. Some took it and started looking, while others figured I was a disgruntled employee. Cliff was the last true good leader of F9. He knew things were about to take a dump, and he knew he had to leave.

It was again very difficult to leave. I just could not bear to watch anymore.



I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7040 posts, RR: 13
Reply 71, posted (1 year 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 11073 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 68):
You insist they lost money - the CEO has just told the staff that:

"...our profit margin improved from 3.8% last Q2 to 4.2% this year."

If you think he's speaking with forked tongue, or if you have any issue with that, take it up with the CEO, or the SEC or the DOJ, take it up with anyone but me.

It's corporate weasel words. It's an operating profit, not a net profit. He didn't specify.

Quoting FRNT787 (Reply 69):
Quoting enilria (Reply 67):
Well, letting two or whatever A320s go off lease and getting one used A320 isn't really investing...

No A320s have left. A318s and high lease rate A319s have left. That sounds good to me.

Well, whatever. The point is that swapping leased planes for fewer leased planes is not investing in my book.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 70):
When Cliff V. would not look me in the eye during a meeting about RFP's that had gone out, I knew every station outside of DEN was screwed.
Quoting F9animal (Reply 70):
Cliff was the last true good leader of F9.

I was about to defend Cliff, but you did it before I had too. He was a good man in a bad situation.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 72, posted (1 year 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 11064 times:
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Quoting enilria (Reply 71):
It's corporate weasel words.

I guess you missed the last lines of my post.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineMSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6523 posts, RR: 51
Reply 73, posted (1 year 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 11061 times:

Quoting wwtraveler99 (Reply 62):
Any current or former F9 employee, I welcome your thoughts on that issue.

I know quite a few hard working, dedicated people who were with F9 for years, strongly opposed to the WN acquisition, and are now out of a job. Of course hindsight as they say is 20/20. For the people who would have got on with WN, it would have been a great thing. No airline treats their employees better.

Quoting enilria (Reply 71):
I was about to defend Cliff, but you did it before I had too. He was a good man in a bad situation.

Great man. I knew him for quite a few years. Huge loss for the company as he was well liked and respected by everyone.


User currently offlineFRNT787 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1319 posts, RR: 15
Reply 74, posted (1 year 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 10728 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 71):
Well, whatever. The point is that swapping leased planes for fewer leased planes is not investing in my book

I don't understand your point. When did I say they were investing heavily? My point was that they are still adding planes...which is true. BB said they would not invest to bring the airline to the next level. You seemed to believe him about that. You argued that meant NO new aircraft. I disagreed it meant NO new aircraft.

He also said they were planning to be in a growth mode next year. So is he a liar, meaning we can't believe either statement? Or is he telling the truth, meaning we can believe both statements?


It would seem odd to believe one statement and not the other...



"We have a right to fail, because failure makes us grow" --Glenn Beck
User currently offlinen7371f From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1690 posts, RR: 12
Reply 75, posted (1 year 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 10413 times:
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The last A318 (803) was suppose to have left by now - it was even pulled from service and parked at DEN - but it spent last night as a RON in GEG and has a full flying schedule ahead for the next few days at least. I assume this has to do with the recent damage to a 319 and being short.

Quoting FRNT787 (Reply 63):
I wonder if the old frontier employees wish they hadn't been acquired by People Express.

I can answer that with a definitive yes. The acquisition was eerily similar to Republic - a white knight-of-sort. People was originally hailed by everyone at FL because it was the alternative to Frank Lorenzo. But six months after the close, FL's President had quit and People installed a less-than-qualified manager to run FL. People also reneged on its promise to operate FL separate with its own business model, a full-service airline and not a no-frills op.

The similarities between the two versions of Frontier have been amazingly similar since the bankruptcy filing. It's almost eerie.

Quoting enilria (Reply 40):
Quoting n7371f (Reply 35):

So, then what does Bedford mean when he says he won't invest any more in F9? It means they can't take any more aircraft, for example. It seems like a pretty bleak comment.

Unless the ULCC model starts producing a positive annual NET margin they are unsellable.

I have a real hard time convincing myself that Bedford has no back-up plan whatsoever. And regarding the notion of a shutdown, I don't think Republic has the money to go through with that. Even with a separate bankruptcy filing for F9, creditors are going to want $ from Republic - and there's not a ton of it at the parent company.


User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7040 posts, RR: 13
Reply 76, posted (1 year 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 10283 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 72):
Quoting enilria (Reply 71):
It's corporate weasel words.

I guess you missed the last lines of my post.

My point is that there are ways to say things that technically true, but that are effectively untrue. Such is the art of PR.

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 73):
Great man. I knew him for quite a few years. Huge loss for the company as he was well liked and respected by everyone.

He didn't fit in, however, among the nest of vipers

Quoting FRNT787 (Reply 74):
I don't understand your point. When did I say they were investing heavily? My point was that they are still adding planes...which is true.
Quoting FRNT787 (Reply 74):
You argued that meant NO new aircraft.

A used A320 is not a new aircraft. As I said trading one used plane for another is not investing, it is just trying to squeeze more nickels out of the costs. To some extent it is the opposite of investing since the fleet is decreasing rapidly.


User currently offlineF9animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5001 posts, RR: 28
Reply 77, posted (1 year 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 10127 times:

n7371f, damaged A319? What plane, and what kind of damage?


I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 78, posted (1 year 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 10092 times:
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Quoting enilria (Reply 76):
My point is that there are ways to say things that technically true, but that are effectively untrue. Such is the art of PR.

I know what your point is, you keep saying it.

And I can only repeat myself - I guess you didn't read the last two airlines of my post. Or any of my post except the quote.

But since you have told me I know nothing about about accounting, there isn't a lot of point in debating it.

mariner

[Edited 2013-07-29 13:02:12]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 79, posted (1 year 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 9951 times:
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I don't know if this has anything to do with anything, but Indigo has been mentioned by several people in connection with the Frontier deal.

Now today, Spirit says William Franke is resigning as a director of Spirit upon completion of a sale of a big bunch of shares by Indigo associates:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/spirit...nounces-sale-common-203917312.html

"Spirit Airlines, Inc. (SAVE) announced today the public offering of 12,070,920 shares of common stock by certain existing stockholders affiliated with Indigo Partners LLC ("Indigo"). Upon completion of the offering, investment funds affiliated with Indigo will no longer own shares of common stock of Spirit Airlines. The company will not receive any proceeds from this offering. Barclays is acting as the sole underwriter for the offering.

In connection with the offering, the Company also announced that Messrs. William A. Franke and John R. Wilson have informed the Company that upon completion of the offering, they expect to resign as directors at the next board meeting, presently scheduled for August 7, 2013."


Indigo getting out and cashing up - and Barclays managing both? An interesting turn of events.

mariner

[Edited 2013-07-29 14:17:23]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2741 posts, RR: 1
Reply 80, posted (1 year 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 9924 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 79):

Well...... IF..... Indigo is now going after F9..... they are going to need some $$$$$$$$........

Interesting turns of events definitely.......

 


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 81, posted (1 year 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 9909 times:
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Quoting point2point (Reply 80):
Well...... IF..... Indigo is now going after F9..... they are going to need some $$$$$$$$........

Interesting turns of events definitely.......

Either that, or Indigo thinks its great run with Spirit has done its big dash.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2741 posts, RR: 1
Reply 82, posted (1 year 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 9822 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 81):
Either that, or Indigo thinks its great run with Spirit has done its big dash.

I would presume (or maybe not) that if Indigo wanted to hang on to NK, and at the same time invest in F9, there wouldn't be any regulatory stuff preventing them from doing that..... or would there be?

 


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 83, posted (1 year 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 9732 times:
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Quoting point2point (Reply 82):
I would presume (or maybe not) that if Indigo wanted to hang on to NK, and at the same time invest in F9, there wouldn't be any regulatory stuff preventing them from doing that..... or would there be?

None that I know of. Maybe the partners (in Indigo) just wanted to cash up - they've made a big bundle but it is only paper profit until they sell.

At the same time, it does mean that Indigo is flush with cash and I assume they will be looking to put it to work somewhere.

12 million shares at - say - $35 each, or even #$30 - is a pretty big bunch of money.

mariner

[Edited 2013-07-29 14:59:42]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinesunking737 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2038 posts, RR: 8
Reply 84, posted (1 year 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 9607 times:

Quoting F9animal (Reply 77):
n7371f, damaged A319? What plane, and what kind of damage?

I was told plane vs jetway. SY had been doing sub-service with one 737-800 on a MSP-DEN-SEA-DEN-MSP-DEN-MSP routing. This was over the last two weeks.



Just an MSPAVGEEK
User currently offlineonaclearday From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 52 posts, RR: 2
Reply 85, posted (1 year 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 9507 times:

Quoting wwtraveler99 (Reply 62):
Any current or former F9 employee, I welcome your thoughts on that issue.

I was definitely against the proposed buy-out of F9 by WN. I favored the Republic plan because it gave the greatest number of current (at the time) Frontier employees the best chance at continued employment with as little disruption as possible. At the same time, I viewed the Republic plan as an opportunity to take Frontier Airlines in an interesting and rewarding new direction.

Bedford and Company, though, haven't been up to the task of meeting my expectations for the long-term future of Frontier, but I haven't left Frontier for Southwest--or any other airline--because I don't want to work for Southwest--or any other U.S. airline. (If I held an EU passport, though, I might be tempted to jump across the pond and work for a European airline. That would be an experience worth the effort). Some collegues have gone to Southwest, United, and others, and they each have their own reasons for doing so--just as they had their own reasons for supporting one buy-out plan over the other way back when. I certainly wish them every happiness, because without that what is there?

Despite the course of events, though, I'm where I want to be. I haven't changed my mind.



"Don't touch Howard's rocks."
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3056 posts, RR: 1
Reply 86, posted (1 year 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 9458 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 79):
I don't know if this has anything to do with anything, but Indigo has been mentioned by several people in connection with the Frontier deal.

On Saturday I read both the Indigo Partners and the Anchorage Capital Group LLC biz bio's. In the airline arena Indigo Partners LLC far-far exceeds Anchorage Capital Group in the airline biz. There was a single mention of Airbus in the Anchorage Capital Group bio. My take was Anchorage is more of a global investor.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinen7371f From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1690 posts, RR: 12
Reply 87, posted (1 year 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 9247 times:
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Well at the point it's pretty obvious who the bidder is.

I think it's great for Frontier that Franke sees value and potential in the airline. So much that he's willing to divest of Spirit.

It's pure speculation but I've wondered since Franke's name surfaced if he is anticipating that US Airways may reduce its Phoenix presence following the merger & may want to move in with F9. I know the thought is out there but...something to file away and check on in a few years.


User currently offlinesunking737 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2038 posts, RR: 8
Reply 88, posted (1 year 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 9191 times:

News of note, Spirit's C.O.B. has resigned, Indigo Partners has placed shares of the airline on the market. So Indigo should be buying Frontier.

"Spirit Airlines, Inc. (Nasdaq: SAVE) announced today the public offering of 12,070,920 shares of common stock by certain existing stockholders affiliated with Indigo Partners LLC ("Indigo"). Upon completion of the offering, investment funds affiliated with Indigo will no longer own shares of common stock of Spirit Airlines. The company will not receive any proceeds from this offering. Barclays is acting as the sole underwriter for the offering."

Here is the link to the press release above http://www.benzinga.com



Just an MSPAVGEEK
User currently offlineJerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1954 posts, RR: 0
Reply 89, posted (1 year 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 9105 times:
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Quoting mariner (Reply 79):
Now today, Spirit says William Franke is resigning as a director of Spirit upon completion of a sale of a big bunch of shares by Indigo associates:
Quoting sunking737 (Reply 88):

Already posted but yeah its pretty clear its Indigo. Being that IND recently invested with Spirit, I think its likely that LiveTV is gone (Too heavy not enough sales to make it reasonable). Depending on how well it does, Stretch seating is probably going to be reduced or eliminated. Bundling may be out too. And hopefully they don't reduce the pitch but who knows.



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 90, posted (1 year 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 9049 times:
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Quoting Jerseyguy (Reply 89):
Being that IND recently invested with Spirit, I think its likely that LiveTV is gone (Too heavy not enough sales to make it reasonable). Depending on how well it does, Stretch seating is probably going to be reduced or eliminated. Bundling may be out too. And hopefully they don't reduce the pitch but who knows.

I don't think any of those things have much to do with Indigo.

LiveTV is heavy and expensive, old technology,I assume it is already on the way out, and Frontier is already unbundling. Even with Indigo (if it is Indigo) I don't know why Stretch seating would go - isn't it similar to Spirit's Big Front Seat?

mariner

[Edited 2013-07-29 19:48:19]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineJerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1954 posts, RR: 0
Reply 91, posted (1 year 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 8953 times:
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Quoting mariner (Reply 90):
Frontier is already unbundling.

How are they unbundling, Classic still gets you 2 checked bags, $50 off the change fee, Select Seating, Discount on Stretch Seating and unlimited standard non-alcholic beverages.

Quoting mariner (Reply 90):
I don't know why Stretch seating would go - isn't it similar to Spirit's Big Front Seat?

Big front seat gets far less seats than stretch. There are 30 Stretch seats on the A319 while Spirit offers 10. There are 36 Stretch seats on the A320 where Spirit offers 4. Big front seat offers the same legroom as Stretch and 2 more inches of width and costs $40 for a 2-3 hour ACY-FLA flight. Stretch only costs $15 on the same flight.



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7040 posts, RR: 13
Reply 92, posted (1 year 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 8976 times:

Quoting sunking737 (Reply 88):
News of note, Spirit's C.O.B. has resigned, Indigo Partners has placed shares of the airline on the market. So Indigo should be buying Frontier.

"Spirit Airlines, Inc. (Nasdaq: SAVE) announced today the public offering of 12,070,920 shares of common stock by certain existing stockholders affiliated with Indigo Partners LLC ("Indigo"). Upon completion of the offering, investment funds affiliated with Indigo will no longer own shares of common stock of Spirit Airlines. The company will not receive any proceeds from this offering. Barclays is acting as the sole underwriter for the offering."

Here is the link to the press release above http://www.benzinga.com

OK, now this all makes sense. I made no sense for NK to merge with F9. Indigo is basically saying that NK has topped and is selling now. They are buying F9 for nickels and will attempt to compete with their former progeny...and now we can probably guess that the non-binding nature relates to their success in selling the shares at a price they want. I expect the stock price for SAVE will crash tomorrow. Now you have had the CMO, CFO, and a huge shareholder all bail out of NK. Clearly, they all felt the company's value topped.

So what we can expect is F9 is going to change a lot more if the deal is completed. This is probably best case scenario, although Indigo will be even more cost-conscious which makes it bad to be an employee.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 93, posted (1 year 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 8948 times:
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Quoting Jerseyguy (Reply 91):
How are they unbundling, Classic still gets you 2 checked bags, $50 off the change fee, Select Seating, Discount on Stretch Seating and unlimited standard non-alcholic beverages.

It gives you the choice of what and how much you want to buy:

http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_231496...ge-some-customers-carry-ons-drinks

""As we unbundle our product further, we ensure those customers who want the absolute lowest fares can always find them at FlyFrontier.com."

"Unbundling" is an industry-wide trend that allows passengers the choice of paying only for those services and amenities that he or she chooses."


As to Stretch Seating:

Quoting Jerseyguy (Reply 91):
Big front seat gets far less seats than stretch. There are 30 Stretch seats on the A319 while Spirit offers 10. There are 36 Stretch seats on the A320 where Spirit offers 4.

There will always be minor differences - they're different airlines. But Stretch represents revenue to the airline, as BFS does to Spirit, so I wouldn't assume it will go away.

mariner

[Edited 2013-07-29 20:03:37]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineJerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1954 posts, RR: 0
Reply 94, posted (1 year 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 8856 times:
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Re: Bundling
I meant F9 bundling some of those services that they now charge for into the Classic fare. Checked bags instead of paying $20 per bag if you get a classic ticket you'll get 2 checked bags for between $25-30 more (plus the other things I talked about).



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 95, posted (1 year 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 8838 times:
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Quoting Jerseyguy (Reply 94):
I meant F9 bundling some of those services that they now charge for into the Classic fare. Checked bags instead of paying $20 per bag if you get a classic ticket you'll get 2 checked bags for between $25-30 more (plus the other things I talked about).

You asked me how Frontier is unbundling and I explained, as the CEO said and as in the linked article in the previous post:

http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_231496...ge-some-customers-carry-ons-drinks

"Unbundling" is an industry-wide trend that allows passengers the choice of paying only for those services and amenities that he or she chooses."

The passenger gets to choose the package they want, at various fare levels. It isn't a "one fare suits all" situation.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinestlgph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9303 posts, RR: 25
Reply 96, posted (1 year 18 hours ago) and read 8515 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 92):
Indigo is basically saying that NK has topped and is selling now.

Not at all. It's a raise of capitalization. Right now Spirit is roughly trading at $35 and the most common analysis is for the stock to hit $43 in the next 12 months. If outside investors are looking for an entry point into Spirit, listen up folks, if Indigo sells, shares will take a hit, then most likely rebound and climb in the next year or two. This is your entry point.

As for Indigo - why are they selling? Why have just 11 million shares of one carrier when you have a lot more in another, run the same model, and see the returns? The sell off will bring the cash, so make the investment, and enjoy a better pay off in the long run.



Eternal darkness we all should dread. It's hard to party when you're dead.
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7040 posts, RR: 13
Reply 97, posted (1 year 14 hours ago) and read 8256 times:

Quoting stlgph (Reply 96):

Don't really understand what you mean, but the stock is down 10% today as I predicted. Yes, Indigo is being shrewd. Not blaming them. Buy low, sell high. They think NK is high and F9 is low. End of story.


User currently onlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5453 posts, RR: 29
Reply 98, posted (1 year 13 hours ago) and read 8120 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 97):
Don't really understand what you mean, but the stock is down 10% today as I predicted.

I think he's saying the same thing you are:

Quoting stlgph (Reply 96):
If outside investors are looking for an entry point into Spirit, listen up folks, if Indigo sells, shares will take a hit,

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlineFlytravel From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 873 posts, RR: 0
Reply 99, posted (1 year 12 hours ago) and read 8053 times:

Quoting Jerseyguy (Reply 91):
Big front seat gets far less seats than stretch. There are 30 Stretch seats on the A319 while Spirit offers 10. There are 36 Stretch seats on the A320 where Spirit offers 4. Big front seat offers the same legroom as Stretch and 2 more inches of width and costs $40 for a 2-3 hour ACY-FLA flight. Stretch only costs $15 on the same flight.

The Big Front Seat on NK isn't all that comfortable. There is no tray table in front even in Row 2, but maybe it was on the side. The setup anyways wasn't great for taking out a laptop despite the room. The recline ability didn't work for me either. Overall, it felt like a really old seat too. On some planes, NK only has one row (4 seats) of Big Front Seat anyways. I think what's probably more popular is people paying for an aisle. I really wonder how people endure the 3-4 hour flights on NK.

[Edited 2013-07-30 11:53:28]

User currently offlineroswell41 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 776 posts, RR: 1
Reply 100, posted (1 year 12 hours ago) and read 8076 times:

F9 employees are in for a big surprise if they think life will be better under Bill Franke. He has an ideological opposition to unions and will do whatever he can to break them. Frontier employees must stand strong lest they be steamrolled by Franke and Indigo.

User currently offlineJerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1954 posts, RR: 0
Reply 101, posted (1 year 12 hours ago) and read 8044 times:
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Quoting Flytravel (Reply 99):
I really wonder how people endure the 3-4 hour flights on NK.

I don't know but people do. It seems that US is now matching NK on their routes out of PHL. Usually in this case I would go with the carrier that brought the low fares but I can't with NK, so I'll just choose US.



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlinestlgph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9303 posts, RR: 25
Reply 102, posted (1 year 12 hours ago) and read 8067 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 97):
Don't really understand what you mean, but the stock is down 10% today as I predicted. Yes, Indigo is being shrewd. Not blaming them. Buy low, sell high. They think NK is high and F9 is low. End of story.

No, you're saying Spirit stock has hit its high and that's it. I am saying otherwise.
I'm saying they (Indigo) are selling out for capital to go long on an investment in Frontier.

The analyst consensus 12 month target YOY is $40 on shares of SAVE, YOY date @ 10/13 target price is $38.90.
Return potential remains 18.85%, 1 year return at 53.30%
Consensus is 76.9% buy, 15.54% hold, 7.7% hold.



Eternal darkness we all should dread. It's hard to party when you're dead.
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2741 posts, RR: 1
Reply 103, posted (1 year 12 hours ago) and read 8062 times:

Quoting stlgph (Reply 102):
The analyst consensus 12 month target YOY is $40 on shares of SAVE, YOY date @ 10/13 target price is $38.90.
Return potential remains 18.85%, 1 year return at 53.30%
Consensus is 76.9% buy, 15.54% hold, 7.7% hold.

Wow! Who woulda thought that NK was the airline stock to be buying?

 


User currently offlinen7371f From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1690 posts, RR: 12
Reply 104, posted (1 year 12 hours ago) and read 8079 times:
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As I (and several others) predicted, it's William Franke & his Indigo Partners, per the WSJ. Article quotes source close to Franke. Believes there's room for 2 ULCC's in USA & plan is to drastically cut Frontier's costs & model airline after Spirit.

User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 105, posted (1 year 12 hours ago) and read 8017 times:
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Quoting point2point (Reply 103):
Wow! Who woulda thought that NK was the airline stock to be buying?

Sure it is, but no matter how well Spirit does, it is unlikely to achieve the same percentage returns - over an equivalent period of time - as it has for Indigo.

It isn't just how much you make - it is also how long it takes you to make it. Doubling your money over ten years is one thing - doubling your money over two years is better.

Indigo bought cheap, made a big bunch of money with the IPO - the Initial Public Offering - and made a bunch more with the 2PO - the Secondary Public Offering. Indigo didn't even have to do the hard yards, the early, difficult work, Oaktree Capital had been the original venture capitalists with Spirit.

Now it is time for Indigo to move on and put that money to work somewhere else, see if they can pull the same trick again.

BB has said it frequently about Frontier - that Republic will become a minority shareholder and make its money with the eventual IPO.

IPOs can be like open sesame for a patient investor who gets in on the ground floor - George Soros and JetBlue, for example. He bought in as a venture capitalist at a nominative $10 a share and sold a slab of his shares with the IPO - at $40 a share.

It isn't about airlines - it is about money.

mariner

[Edited 2013-07-30 12:39:26]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineJerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1954 posts, RR: 0
Reply 106, posted (1 year 11 hours ago) and read 7939 times:
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Quoting n7371f (Reply 104):
Believes there's room for 2 ULCC's in USA & plan is to drastically cut Frontier's costs & model airline after Spirit.

  Can't say I'm surprised but 28"non-reclining seats here we come. Only way I'm flying F9 after they do this is as long as stretch seating is still available.



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 107, posted (1 year 10 hours ago) and read 7804 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 105):
BB has said it frequently about Frontier - that Republic will become a minority shareholder and make its money with the eventual IPO.

Republic will be trying to recoop some of its losses in money it has pumped into and expenses it had purchasing both midwest and frontier in this sale. There is no way they will make money its trying to recoop its loses for shareholders. It was a bad investment for everyone involved.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 108, posted (1 year 10 hours ago) and read 7792 times:
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Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 107):
Republic will be trying to recoop some of its losses in money it has pumped into and expenses it had purchasing both midwest and frontier in this sale. There is no way they will make money its trying to recoop its loses for shareholders. It was a bad investment for everyone involved.

Indeed, it may never recoup the total amount it invested - but most of that money was written off, long ago, or has been a tax advantage.

If Republic does maintain a minority interest in Frontier, as it has said it will, it should do very well with the IPO.

This isn't about the past, so loved on a.net. It is about the future.

mariner

[Edited 2013-07-30 13:56:00]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7040 posts, RR: 13
Reply 109, posted (1 year 10 hours ago) and read 7677 times:

Quoting roswell41 (Reply 100):

F9 employees are in for a big surprise if they think life will be better under Bill Franke. He has an ideological opposition to unions and will do whatever he can to break them. Frontier employees must stand strong lest they be steamrolled by Franke and Indigo.

I'm sure it will be a different theo/ideology from BB!

Quoting stlgph (Reply 102):
No, you're saying Spirit stock has hit its high and that's it. I am saying otherwise.
I'm saying they (Indigo) are selling out for capital to go long on an investment in Frontier.
Quoting stlgph (Reply 102):
The analyst consensus 12 month target YOY is $40 on shares of SAVE, YOY date @ 10/13 target price is $38.90.
Return potential remains 18.85%, 1 year return at 53.30%
Consensus is 76.9% buy, 15.54% hold, 7.7% hold.

Again, we don't know what all these execs and Indigo know.
I think the presumption should always be that insiders have a better idea of the future than anybody else. What i do know is that FLL is eroding and DFW is doing great. The AA merger could dramatically change both. Risk-reward. Don't always assume analysts are any smarter than the info being to them from the company's PR and IR departments who want to see the stock go up.

Quoting point2point (Reply 103):
Wow! Who woulda thought that NK was the airline stock to be buying?

I'd be cautious about that.

Quoting n7371f (Reply 104):
Believes there's room for 2 ULCC's in USA & plan is to drastically cut Frontier's costs & model airline after Spirit.
Quoting mariner (Reply 108):
This isn't about the past, so loved on a.net. It is about the future.

We probably need a new thread for this, but the question is :

WHAT WILL FRONTIER BECOME???

My thoughts/predictions are:
#1 (and this is already in progress) DEN will not be the focus of the airline, care to guess where? It's probably multiple places. SEA? PHX? STL? ATL? BOS? IAH? I'd say those are all candidates in addition to MCO and retaining some DEN like NK kept some Detroit.
#2 There will be a new name to fit with the rebirth. Something like Air Purple or whatever...
#3 Will F9 fly mostly to small cities or large cities like NK does? I suspect they will copy NK.
#4 All ground employees, even DEN, will be contracted.
#5 Any maintenance which is not already contracted will be.
#6 They will be back knocking at the pilot's door on wages with the threat of shutdown in the balance.
#7 They will find a way to get lower fleet ownership costs which according to their reporting is high.
#8 TV is gone. Maybe Wifi for a big fee.
#9 Total RyanAir fee model
#10 Animals are gone


User currently offlinestlgph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9303 posts, RR: 25
Reply 110, posted (1 year 9 hours ago) and read 7557 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 109):
Don't always assume analysts are any smarter than the info being to them from the company's PR and IR departments who want to see the stock go

With due respect to a lot of my analyst friends, many of them do get great access to a lot of great insight.

Quoting enilria (Reply 109):
I'd be cautious about that.

I'd buy and stay long.



Eternal darkness we all should dread. It's hard to party when you're dead.
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7040 posts, RR: 13
Reply 111, posted (1 year 8 hours ago) and read 7463 times:

Quoting stlgph (Reply 110):
Quoting enilria (Reply 109):
Don't always assume analysts are any smarter than the info being to them from the company's PR and IR departments who want to see the stock go

With due respect to a lot of my analyst friends, many of them do get great access to a lot of great insight.

But insiders often know a lot more. That's why people watch trades by insiders so closely.


User currently offlineFlytravel From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 873 posts, RR: 0
Reply 112, posted (1 year 8 hours ago) and read 7449 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 109):
#1 (and this is already in progress) DEN will not be the focus of the airline, care to guess where? It's probably multiple places. SEA? PHX? STL? ATL? BOS? IAH? I'd say those are all candidates in addition to MCO and retaining some DEN like NK kept some Detroit.

You forgot higher density configuration, likely #1. Even Southwest's evolve has squeezed a row in.

I'd add MDW to the possible list for focuses, but drop SEA and BOS as these are too out there for connection flow. MCO and TPA are also likely. I'd also think it may consider IAD, as NK chose to service BWI instead, and the DC region might be able to support an ULCC on the other side of the region. WN is small at IAD too. Maybe it'd add token service at HGR also.

In general, think F9 will focus more on the eastern US and a few areas in the central US like Chicago, DFW and IAH. It may also keep some markets like MSN and some other former FL markets (PHF, BMI) that were large enough for FL but not large enough for WN. Most of FL's map was oriented as eastern and central US.

It'd be interesting if the DCA and LGA slots stay with DEN service.


User currently offlineairliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 1378 posts, RR: 2
Reply 113, posted (1 year 8 hours ago) and read 7433 times:

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 112):
I'd add MDW to the possible list for focuses

There is absolutely no room for more then a small operation. They could maybe get all 3 gates in C but that is it.

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 112):
It'd be interesting if the DCA and LGA slots stay with DEN service.

The 3 DCA flights they have are locked to DEN and they operate one flight to LGA so not much they can do at LGA.



You will either love or hate the airline industry. If you love it, it will get in your blood and it will never leave.
User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11448 posts, RR: 61
Reply 114, posted (1 year 8 hours ago) and read 7428 times:

Quoting n7371f (Reply 104):
As I (and several others) predicted, it's William Franke & his Indigo Partners, per the WSJ. Article quotes source close to Franke. Believes there's room for 2 ULCC's in USA & plan is to drastically cut Frontier's costs & model airline after Spirit.

It does appear that the long-term goal is to turn Frontier into "Spirit West" - another ULCC. It was clear from Bedford's comments on the Republic call and the WSJ article. However, I personally question whether that strategy can work in Denver absent some major adjustments to the airline's network there.

What has traditionally been Frontier's saving grace in Denver was their unique blend of low fares and a relatively strong product/service offering. If the new "strategy" is simply to compete with Southwest purely on their turf - price - I question the efficacy of that approach. I think Southwest will win. Now, if Frontier wants to turn into an ULCC, that's one thing, but I think doing so is going to drive a not-insignificant share of their local market in Denver to United and Southwest, and therefore necessitate the reallocation of capacity elsewhere.

Nonetheless, all that being said, I think the long-term plan if that is the approach should just be to get Frontier into fighting shape as a ULCC and then position it for sale to Spirit. I disagree with Mr. Franke that there is room in this country for "another" ULCC - I think there is room for two, and Spirit and Allegiant are clearly going to be the two, in my view. If Frontier goes down the ULCC path, then it makes perfect sense to me to ultimately combine Frontier and Spirit - it would give Spirit enormous scale in the western U.S. and access to lots of new markets they don't currently serve.


User currently offlinestlgph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9303 posts, RR: 25
Reply 115, posted (1 year 7 hours ago) and read 7344 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 111):
But insiders often know a lot more. That's why people watch trades by insiders so closely.

 


I do think we agree that Phoenix's role after the US/AA merger is complete will be interesting. Allegiant folks have come out and say "they very much look forward to the opportunities the merger will create for them at Mesa/Phoenix."



Eternal darkness we all should dread. It's hard to party when you're dead.
User currently offlineMSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6523 posts, RR: 51
Reply 116, posted (1 year 7 hours ago) and read 7315 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 114):
I disagree with Mr. Franke that there is room in this country for "another" ULCC - I think there is room for two, and Spirit and Allegiant are clearly going to be the two, in my view. If Frontier goes down the ULCC path, then it makes perfect sense to me to ultimately combine Frontier and Spirit - it would give Spirit enormous scale in the western U.S. and access to lots of new markets they don't currently serve.

I agree. NK+F9 would form one mega ULCC so to speak. That's the only way I can see this working and be even more successful long term. Might as well keep the name Spirit while they are at it.


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3056 posts, RR: 1
Reply 117, posted (1 year 7 hours ago) and read 7293 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 109):
#2 There will be a new name to fit with the rebirth. Something like Air Purple or whatever...

With the color purple in mind; Yahoo Airlines perhaps! Makes your wonder if we might see the "Spirit of the West" slogan again.

Quoting enilria (Reply 109):
#10 Animals are gone

I will be gone too.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineroswell41 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 776 posts, RR: 1
Reply 118, posted (1 year 7 hours ago) and read 7262 times:

I think that may be the ultimate plan. Fix F9 into a true ULCC, IPO it and then make more money with a merger with NK. In a five year time horizon this is possible and could be a sound plan.

User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 119, posted (1 year 7 hours ago) and read 7266 times:
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Quoting commavia (Reply 114):
It does appear that the long-term goal is to turn Frontier into "Spirit West" - another ULCC. It was clear from Bedford's comments on the Republic call and the WSJ article. However, I personally question whether that strategy can work in Denver absent some major adjustments to the airline's network there.

More than "appear". Bedford stated it - ULCC - as strategy when separation (from Republic) was first announced.

Since then, there have been "adjustments" to the network at DEN - Frontier has been making Southwest increasingly irrelevant to its route map, and those changes are ongoing.

At the same time, Frontier has been focussing more on DEN. As on the recent CC, 90% of the business is at DEN, up a couple of points from last year.

That percentage may well reduce with new management, but I'm not sure why Frontier and Denver (city) have been pursuing an agreement so energetically, which agreement (at least in principle) would be advantageous to the new management.

But - perhaps. I have no idea what will happen and anything is possible, of course.

That's part of the fun of this - not what Frontier is (or has been) but what Frontier might become. And what anyone here thinks that might be is only guesswork.

Nothing is carved in granite - not even a deal with Indigo.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11448 posts, RR: 61
Reply 120, posted (1 year 7 hours ago) and read 7226 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 119):
Since then, there have been "adjustments" to the network at DEN - Frontier has been making Southwest increasingly irrelevant to its route map, and those changes are ongoing.

True, but Frontier and Southwest do still overlap in lots of high-volume markets - LAX, SFO, SEA, LAS, CHI, HOU, MCI, etc. - where I think a ULCC approach would drive a significant amount of share to Southwest (and United).


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3056 posts, RR: 1
Reply 121, posted (1 year 6 hours ago) and read 7190 times:

If it does happen and it's still a if. Surprisingly NK doesn't fly to three of F9 better performing markets DCA, SEA and ANC (be it seasonal) http://www.spirit.com/RouteMaps.aspx

I realize NK served DCA for a while. F9 has three daily DEN-DCA flights which I think would be difficult and stupid to give up. DCA being F9 best performing market.

With a play on words I could see the new name resembling something like "Frontier Spirit"



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 122, posted (1 year 6 hours ago) and read 7195 times:
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Quoting commavia (Reply 120):
True, but Frontier and Southwest do still overlap in lots of high-volume markets - LAX, SFO, SEA, LAS, CHI, HOU, MCI, etc. - where I think a ULCC approach would drive a significant amount of share to Southwest (and United).

Well, in several, sure. But those are high-volume markets and I'm not sure why lower fares would drive folk away from Frontier to Southwest and, especially, United.

Frontier has been headed to ULCC for some time and DEN-SEA, for example, is still at 5 x daily, dropping to 4 x in the fall.

Even if they "did a Spirit" and dropped to 1 or 2 x daily, it wouldn't necessarily be the end of Frontier at DEN. As Allegiant, Spirit and the Frontier load factors have have shown, the low-fare market is not necessarily frequency dependent. For legacies, maybe, and Southwest maybe, but we're not talking legacy.

mariner

[Edited 2013-07-30 18:08:59]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11448 posts, RR: 61
Reply 123, posted (1 year 6 hours ago) and read 7178 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 122):
I'm not sure why lower fares would drive folk away from Frontier

Lower fares wouldn't drive people away. But the degradation of the product will. Frontier has cultivated an image and customer value proposition - especially in Denver - that is built around more than just cheap fares. When they start cramming in more seats, ripping out TVs, charging for carryons, etc. - that will, I suspect, cause many people to just start flying the alternative. This is especially pronounced in Denver where there is such vibrant competition.


User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7040 posts, RR: 13
Reply 124, posted (1 year 6 hours ago) and read 7184 times:

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 112):
You forgot higher density configuration, likely #1. Even Southwest's evolve has squeezed a row in.

I'd add MDW to the possible list for focuses, but drop SEA and BOS as these are too out there for connection flow.

They are already doing the increased seating and it will continue. MDW has no gates. SEA/BOS are fine because ULCCs don't care about connections.

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 112):
TPA are also likely

TPA has really lost its luster. I don't really see it.

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 112):
I'd also think it may consider IAD

Maybe, but it is a graveyard of LCC failure.

Quoting stlgph (Reply 115):
Allegiant folks have come out and say "they very much look forward to the opportunities the merger will create for them at Mesa/Phoenix."

I think so, but I suspect PHX will be a better place to cash in on that.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 117):
With the color purple in mind; Yahoo Airlines perhaps! Makes your wonder if we might see the "Spirit of the West" slogan again.

I believe they will de-regionalize the name and branding.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 117):
I will be gone too.

As I said, it won't be pleasant for the employees. I expect massive change in every area leaving nobody untouched. Only the pilots are "safe", but they need to agree to more wage cuts to be safe. RyanAir doesn't even employee its own flight attendants. I wouldn't be surprised to see that attempted next in the McDonalds-izing of air travel.


User currently offlineF9animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5001 posts, RR: 28
Reply 125, posted (1 year 6 hours ago) and read 7151 times:

Oh yeah, the pilots are going to be cooked. Inflight is also going to suffer wage cuts. If Indigo does a Spirit move, expect some even more workforce unhappiness. But, it will save the airline from certain failure. I am just looking forward to seeing Siegel and Bedford out of Frontier.


I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 126, posted (1 year 6 hours ago) and read 7153 times:
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Quoting F9animal (Reply 125):
I am just looking forward to seeing Siegel and Bedford out of Frontier.

If this goes forward, Mr, Siegel will have fulfilled exactly his brief. And Mr. Bedford will ave a big smile on his face.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineMKENut From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 699 posts, RR: 1
Reply 127, posted (1 year 5 hours ago) and read 7116 times:

I've been staying out of the conversation about F9 for a long time now. Mostly because I don't have anything good to say about the airline. I think a sale and merger into another airline is the best route to go. If it is Spirit Airlines and they keep some routes out of MKE, I would be willing to give them another try. Sitting in MKE and DEN for hours on end at three different occasions is not fun.

User currently offlineOB1504 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 3307 posts, RR: 9
Reply 128, posted (1 year 5 hours ago) and read 7068 times:

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 99):
The Big Front Seat on NK isn't all that comfortable. There is no tray table in front even in Row 2, but maybe it was on the side. The setup anyways wasn't great for taking out a laptop despite the room. The recline ability didn't work for me either. Overall, it felt like a really old seat too. On some planes, NK only has one row (4 seats) of Big Front Seat anyways. I think what's probably more popular is people paying for an aisle. I really wonder how people endure the 3-4 hour flights on NK.

The grey leather seats on NK's A319s and A321s really haven't aged well, and I've seen passengers board the aircraft and get the impression that it must be 15 or 20 years old, when the oldest airplane is barely 8 now.

The dark blue seats on the A320 seem to be faring much better, and I was very comfortable in my BIG FRONT SEAT (it's painful to write that in all caps but that is how they market it) on my BWI-FLL flight last week, complete with a bonus 3-hour delay.

Quoting stlgph (Reply 115):
I do think we agree that Phoenix's role after the US/AA merger is complete will be interesting. Allegiant folks have come out and say "they very much look forward to the opportunities the merger will create for them at Mesa/Phoenix."

   NK also seems to have sensed an opportunity, switching from AZA to PHX.


User currently offlineJerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1954 posts, RR: 0
Reply 129, posted (1 year 4 hours ago) and read 6992 times:
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Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 117):
Quoting enilria (Reply 109):
#10 Animals are gone

I will be gone too.

You flew F9 for the animals, sure its a nice touch but it wouldn't keep me from flying them if they were dropped.. I assume their will be plenty of other reasons I won't fly them.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 125):
I am just looking forward to seeing Siegel and Bedford out of Frontier.

Franke will probably be much worse, you may long for the days of Siegel and Bedford.

All signs point to use your award travel now while their still a half-decent airline (not referring to the employees but the ULCC changes that have already come down).

It too bad too as I won't have the convience of TTN anymore unless another airline comes in which isn't too likely with them there.



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7040 posts, RR: 13
Reply 130, posted (1 year 4 hours ago) and read 6969 times:

Quoting F9animal (Reply 125):
But, it will save the airline from certain failure. I am just looking forward to seeing Siegel and Bedford out of Frontier
Quoting Jerseyguy (Reply 129):
Franke will probably be much worse, you may long for the days of Siegel and Bedford.

Sadly with each new owner the previous phase becomes the "good ole days" because as an employee it is all downhill from here. I am very happy as a consumer that there will not be one fewer airline...it appears.

Quoting MKENut (Reply 127):
merger into another airline is the best route to go. If it is Spirit Airlines and they keep some routes out of MKE,

There is really no logic that leads to NK merging with F9 at this point. Indigo is severing with NK so that's simply not happening unless things change from the currently stated plan.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 131, posted (1 year 4 hours ago) and read 6907 times:
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Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 116):
NK F9 would form one mega ULCC so to speak.
Quoting roswell41 (Reply 118):
I think that may be the ultimate plan. Fix F9 into a true ULCC, IPO it and then make more money with a merger with NK. In a five year time horizon this is possible and could be a sound plan.

I have no idea where this is coming from. Indigo is cashing up and getting out of Spirit. It will have no leverage to initate a merger of Frontier with Spirit. I don't even know if it Indigo will invest in Frontier yet.

So - don't fall over in shock anyone - for once I agree with Enilria:

Quoting enilria (Reply 130):
There is really no logic that leads to NK merging with F9 at this point. Indigo is severing with NK so that's simply not happening unless things change from the currently stated plan.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7040 posts, RR: 13
Reply 132, posted (1 year 3 hours ago) and read 6885 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 131):
So - don't fall over in shock anyone - for once I agree with Enilria:

Quoting enilria (Reply 130):
There is really no logic that leads to NK merging with F9 at this point. Indigo is severing with NK so that's simply not happening unless things change from the currently stated plan.

mariner

Yay. Yes, it seems pretty simple. Sell high- NK. Buy low- F9. Whether it works again...who knows, but I also agree with you that the new management will be loved no more than BB, although I think they would be smart to be honest from the start about what is going to happen because if they try like others have tried in the past to sugar coat things and then diverge it will just wreck morale further. The employees deserve a fully laid out plan of what they intend to do and then they can make informed life decisions.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 133, posted (1 year 3 hours ago) and read 6833 times:
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Quoting enilria (Reply 132):
Yes, it seems pretty simple. Sell high- NK. Buy low- F9. Whether it works again...who knows, but I also agree with you that the new management will be loved no more than BB,

When have I said that? I have made no comment about the relationship of future management to staff - or staff to future management - because I don't know.

If it is Mr. Franke as chairman, he is an extremely smart cookie who has invested in some very interesting airlines, but I doubt he'll be CEO (maybe) and I have no idea who would be.

Maybe Mr. Siegel, maybe not. Maybe they have someone else in mind. I dunno. I don't try and predict the future.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineJerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1954 posts, RR: 0
Reply 134, posted (1 year 3 hours ago) and read 6829 times:
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Quoting mariner (Reply 133):
When have I said that?

I think he may be thinking of my statements, I've said to F9Animal that he'd be longing for the days of Siegel and Bedford



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 135, posted (1 year 3 hours ago) and read 6784 times:
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Quoting Jerseyguy (Reply 134):
I think he may be thinking of my statements, I've said to F9Animal that he'd be longing for the days of Siegel and Bedford


Maybe, who knows?

I guess I respect successful achievers rather more some on a.net.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7040 posts, RR: 13
Reply 136, posted (12 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 6508 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 135):
Maybe, who knows?
Quoting Jerseyguy (Reply 134):
I think he may be thinking of my statements, I've said to F9Animal that he'd be longing for the days of Siegel and Bedford

Perhaps I confused the poster, but I still think it is true.

Smart cookie or no, he is going to change things a lot. I think the employees deserve to know that x is going to happen in 6 months and y is going to happen in a year and z is probably going to happen after that. It's this "we don't expect any changes from the new owner at this time" B.S. that is disrespectful of employees when they know big changes are coming. If it means more attrition then that is the price of honesty.


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3056 posts, RR: 1
Reply 137, posted (12 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 6254 times:

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 128):
The grey leather seats on NK's A319s and A321s really haven't aged well, and I've seen passengers board the aircraft and get the impression that it must be 15 or 20 years old,

A lot of BISM "Butt In Seat Miles"

Quoting Jerseyguy (Reply 129):
You flew F9 for the animals, sure its a nice touch but it wouldn't keep me from flying them if they were dropped.

The critters are a nice touch in theme jets. I just don't care for the way NK sells its product. In my mind it's the annoying telemarketer or carnival barker who attempts to deceive people in this case the flying public with low fares only to charge super-sized fees. Whats next a fee for the cabin air or a lav blue juice disposal fee.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5370 posts, RR: 7
Reply 138, posted (12 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 6272 times:

This morning's WSJ says Republic expects to close on the sale to Indigo by the end of the third quarter. The article includes a discussion of Bill Franke's ultralow cost ideas on running an airline, implying that that is what's in store for Frontier..


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinemcg From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 792 posts, RR: 0
Reply 139, posted (12 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 6135 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 131):
So - don't fall over in shock anyone - for once I agree with Enilria:

Quoting enilria (Reply 130):
There is really no logic that leads to NK merging with F9 at this point. Indigo is severing with NK so that's simply not happening unless things change from the currently stated plan.

mariner

Wow, I think I hear angels singing!!        


User currently offlineMSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6523 posts, RR: 51
Reply 140, posted (12 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 6097 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 131):
I have no idea where this is coming from. Indigo is cashing up and getting out of Spirit. It will have no leverage to initate a merger of Frontier with Spirit. I don't even know if it Indigo will invest in Frontier yet.

It's just my opinion. Not saying it will happen. I think the synergies are there, and they could better create a national presence and overall brand awareness if they combined ops. F9 was already on the ULCC path, but it sounds like Mr. Franke would take them to the next level...and I think when/if that happens, a merger will at least be contemplated. My two cents, and nothing more. Carry on gentlemen.  


User currently offlineF9animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5001 posts, RR: 28
Reply 141, posted (12 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 5974 times:

IMO, Indigo wanted Spirit and F9 to merge. Which is why we are seeing Indigo bail out on Spirit. I think Indigk can do some good things for Frontier. First, they have to fix some major damage in terms of employee relations.

Siegel just posted a letter to employees, requesting employees to stop talking negatively about the airline while in uniform. I think he is preaching to a choir who will not listen to him. He is very disliked by workers, and has no credibility. In other news, I have received word that DEN ramp and customer service are close to taking the next steps to unionize. I can't blame the workers one bit. They have taken a beating by leadership, and the workers don't trust them at all.



I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlineMSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6523 posts, RR: 51
Reply 142, posted (12 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 5875 times:

Quoting F9animal (Reply 141):
Siegel just posted a letter to employees, requesting employees to stop talking negatively about the airline while in uniform.

He's just going to add fuel to the fire by requesting that. The one's that are probably talking negatively are the one's who have been with F9 for a long time and are trying to come to terms with the fact that the product offered has been degraded compared to what it used to be. It was once something to be proud of...something different. Now, it's pretty much the same as everyone else, more or less. Change is the only constant in this industry, so I'm sure it's tough for some people to wrap their heads around the fact that the new F9 is in fact F9 in name only. Most everything else is different. Even though there will always be complainers, most level headed employees wouldn't have a reason to speak poorly about an employer if they feel they are treated well by the company and that the company is perceived to be going in the right direction.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 143, posted (12 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 5879 times:
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Quoting enilria (Reply 136):
Perhaps I confused the poster, but I still think it is true.

No, not at all confused. I never said what you claimed.

I think this is the best possible (realistic) outcome for Frontier, largely because Franke has such a track record. I have my fingers crossed that it will go through.

Financially, it is a win-win situation for him and Indigo. Assuming it goes to plan and there is an IPO in the not too distant future, I assume it ail be well-priced and over-subscribed - investors expecting him to pull the Spirit (financial) trick again.

And - so far - it has all gone almost exactly to the plan that BB laid down for separation.

What happens other than that is beyond my ken, but that is, in itself, a great thing for Frontier which has long been under-capitalized.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 141):
Siegel just posted a letter to employees, requesting employees to stop talking negatively about the airline while in uniform.

I was pleased to see that letter and his point is valid - that they were bad-mouthing the airline in front of customers.

If you, as an ex-employee, think that's okay, as you seem to do, then we have a different view, but not everyone has your antipathy to either Siegel or BB.

My loyalty has always been to whoever cuts my pay-check, and if I cannot give that loyalty, I leave.

mariner

[Edited 2013-07-31 12:25:54]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24876 posts, RR: 46
Reply 144, posted (12 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 5515 times:

WSJ confirms its Indigo that has the exclusive on Frontier.

http://goo.gl/8mGEfU

=



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineJerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1954 posts, RR: 0
Reply 145, posted (12 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 5488 times:
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Quoting Bloomberg Article (Reply 199):
I think they’ve got a following,” Cowen & Co. (COWN) aviation analyst Helane Becker says of Frontier. “There are people, in Denver especially, who are loyalists. They like the airline and would continue to support it.”]
http://www.businessweek.com/articles...ne-for-americas-cheapest-travelers

That has to be one of the most laughable statements I've heard in awhile, any "Loyalists" are not going to stick with F9 after they become Spirit Airlines v2.



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlinesccutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5490 posts, RR: 28
Reply 146, posted (12 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 5069 times:

Quoting Frontier14 (Reply 57):
Unfortunately for Frontier, SW was not going to take all the employees, only a percentage and leaving the remainder (junior hires) to the street.

What proportion of the people who were employed by F9 at the time of the sale to Republic (and declining to be acquired by Southwest) are still employed at the carrier?



...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7040 posts, RR: 13
Reply 147, posted (12 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 5011 times:

Quoting F9animal (Reply 141):

IMO, Indigo wanted Spirit and F9 to merge.

I know that NK didn't and their most recent aircraft order of a few weeks ago made that even clearer. I don't see any reason why Indigo would have wanted a merger as an investor in NK. The stock was high. Was a merger with weak F9 going to make the stock go higher? Very unlikely. More likely is that the merger would have created indigestion, like all mergers, and brought their stock value down. So, I don't agree in that I see no benefit to Indigo's former NK holding by a merger.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 141):
I think he is preaching to a choir who will not listen to him. He is very disliked by workers, and has no credibility.

Not sure why he is so disliked because as I understand it, he's not even there really ever. They just stamp his name on things with a rubber stamp. He's only there to attract investors. I feel confident he is involved in very few decisions.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 141):
In other news, I have received word that DEN ramp and customer service are close to taking the next steps to unionize.

Not sure it matters. The writing is on the wall. They will be contracted out. I don't think it makes any difference if they are unionized.  
Quoting Jerseyguy (Reply 145):
That has to be one of the most laughable statements I've heard in awhile, any "Loyalists" are not going to stick with F9 after they become Spirit Airlines v2.

Agreed. The product is moving away from a loyalty model quickly and toward a price-only model as evidenced by the latest changes to the elite tiers.

Quoting sccutler (Reply 146):
What proportion of the people who were employed by F9 at the time of the sale to Republic (and declining to be acquired by Southwest) are still employed at the carrier?

Good question. All the ground employees outside DEN are gone and the whole Lynx operation is gone. The mainline fleet is smaller and the admin functions were trimmed and moved to Indy and back probably losing people. I don't even know what became of the mntc operation. The mainline pilots, as usual, are the most in tact group I'd say. My guess is that 40-50% of the employees at that time have either left through normal attrition or were let go, and I'm counting PT and FT the same in that estimate.


User currently offlineMSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6523 posts, RR: 51
Reply 148, posted (12 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4983 times:

I wonder if the remaining Ascent and Summit members will jump ship once the full ULCC transition is complete? I know F9 has been taking steps to reduce perks...such as the much maligned move to do away with free TV, etc...but this might be the final push to drive them all to WN.

User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7040 posts, RR: 13
Reply 149, posted (12 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4948 times:

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 148):
I wonder if the remaining Ascent and Summit members will jump ship once the full ULCC transition is complete? I know F9 has been taking steps to reduce perks...such as the much maligned move to do away with free TV, etc...but this might be the final push to drive them all to WN.

Summit will probably be replaced by the $8.99 Fare Club.  


User currently offlineJerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1954 posts, RR: 0
Reply 150, posted (12 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4878 times:
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Hopefully they are just modeling NK and not the $65 bag fees of Ryan Air
http://metro.co.uk/2013/07/31/ryanai...ggage-fees-by-66-per-cent-3907181/



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User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3056 posts, RR: 1
Reply 151, posted (12 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4768 times:

William Franke could be a rouge buyer. The WSJ article says he resigned as the chairman from NK which leads me to believe he wants the airline but not necessarily a to turn it into a NK clone.

[Edited 2013-08-01 09:06:13]


Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24876 posts, RR: 46
Reply 152, posted (12 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4761 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 151):
William Franke could be a rouge buyer. The WSJ article says he resigned as the chairman from NK which leads me to believe he wants the airline but not necessarily a to turn it into a NK clone.

And the WSJ article states Indigo specializes in the ULCC carrier field - all its previous airline investments have been either creation or adoption of ULCC model. Franke was the one that drove the overhaul of Spirit and hired the new management team to carry it out.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3056 posts, RR: 1
Reply 153, posted (12 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4713 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 152):
And the WSJ article states Indigo specializes in the ULCC carrier field -

I would have loved to have read it. The article did not populate in the forty five or so seconds I attempted to access it. Hence I can only assume it is subscription only. The resignation caption in the headline caught my eye.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineusflyguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 906 posts, RR: 0
Reply 154, posted (12 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4605 times:

Quoting F9animal (Reply 141):
I think Indigk can do some good things for Frontier. First, they have to fix some major damage in terms of employee relations.

Check with NK employees and see what they think about the new F9 leadership. They aren't coming in to make friends, they are coming in to cut costs even further.



My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 155, posted (12 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4588 times:
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Quoting Jerseyguy (Reply 150):
Hopefully they are just modeling NK and not the $65 bag fees of Ryan Air

You never know. Franke was a director of Ryanair. That's where he learned his tricks.  
Quoting usflyguy (Reply 154):
They aren't coming in to make friends, they are coming in to cut costs even further.

Which has to happen. Frontier's costs are still too high.

mariner

[Edited 2013-08-01 11:55:59]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineJerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1954 posts, RR: 0
Reply 156, posted (12 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4576 times:
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Quoting F9animal (Reply 141):
I think Indigk can do some good things for Frontier. First, they have to fix some major damage in terms of employee relations.

With all due respect, wake up. From an employee standpoint things are about to get much worse. And even if you are correct that Beford and Seigel are horrible bosses, its going to get worse. I hate to break it to you but you might not have a job after Indigo is finished (they will probably outsource DEN). I hope that you don't have alot of years in the business so you don't lose too much when you switch jobs.



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User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 157, posted (12 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4542 times:
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Quoting enilria (Reply 147):
He's only there to attract investors. I feel confident he is involved in very few decisions.

I wonder why he took a house in Denver, then.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineMSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6523 posts, RR: 51
Reply 158, posted (12 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4536 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 157):
I wonder why he took a house in Denver, then.

Ski buff?  


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 159, posted (12 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4534 times:
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Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 158):
Ski buff?

In summer? LOL.

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 148):
I wonder if the remaining Ascent and Summit members will jump ship once the full ULCC transition is complete? I know F9 has been taking steps to reduce perks...such as the much maligned move to do away with free TV, etc...but this might be the final push to drive them all to WN.

DirectTV is old technology, heavy, costing fuel and Frontier lost money on it. Maybe they'll go Wifi.

I'm intrigued folk here are clutching their pearls about all this. It is - hopefully - the future, and I suspect the alternative might not be a happy one, as was suggested on the cc.

Then again, I don't share the negative attitudes to ULCC. I first flew Ryanair in 1991 and it was good value for money, I've flown 'em several times since. It has also been extraordinarily efficient, at least on my flights.

mariner



aeternum nauta