onebadlt123 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 41 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 7419 times:
Quoting MX757 (Reply 4): They're qualified. Our last 2 deliveries from Boeing were flown in by sUA pilots.
It's not the pilots that I am talking about. Those are part 91 flights. Who is going to dispatch these birds? sUA dispatchers are using Sabre to plan and release their flights and sabre isn't capable of planning 737's yet. sCO dispatchers use Phoenix/EDS and they can plan 737's however sUA pilots are not trained on sUA paperwork and acculaods. The biggest issue though is sCO and sUA dispatchers are still not under one JCBA so sCO dispatchers can not dispatch sUA metal yet and vise versa. It's a scope violation. There is nobody to dispatch these birds once they are on property and therefore they cannot fly revenue service until somebody can.
There is still a lot to be sorted out once these sUA 739's are all on board. It isn't as simple as plug and play. Lots and lots of scope issues need to be addressed before they are put them into service. Both pilot and dispatcher wise.
sUA and sCO stand for subsidiary UA and CO, basically how the former UA and CO are referred to within the company. PMUA and PMCO stands for premerger UA and CO, when referring to the companies before they merged.
onebadlt123 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 41 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 6433 times:
Quoting YXwatcherMKE (Reply 8): S-UA pilots will get trained and operate under the S-CO dispatch and flight
Amnimg system per the agreement.
Per what agreement? There is none under the sCO side dispatch wise. You can train all the pilots you want, make any agreement with ALPA and the pilot group but the main blocking point is a sCO dispatcher can NOT dispatch a sUA crew or aircraft until a JCBA is written. Only sUA and NONE of them are trained or able to use EDS/Phoenix and the sCO dispatcher can not train sUA dispatchers. There is no "agreement" here on sCO dispatch wise. Unless they get a JCBA, its not happening.
JAAlbert From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1385 posts, RR: 1 Reply 12, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 6226 times:
Quoting YXwatcherMKE (Reply 8): What do you mean by the term "sUA" and "sCO"? For that matter the other terms like "PMUA" or "PMCO" etc.
It's cool avgeek-speak intended to highlight the avgeek's special inside knowledge of the airline industry and differientiate the speaker from the unwashed masses (who it seems only fly economy .. oops I mean Y class).
So, can PMUA (see?) fly the 737-900 once it arrives and where will it be based?
For the sake of this conversation, all of the new deliveries of the 739 are supposed to be flown by sUA pilots, since they will be replacing the older 752's that sUA crews used to fly. The older a/c are supposed to be sold. sCO and sUA have 752's, but sUA birds are older and will be replaced (except for the P.S. configured aircraft and a few of the later builds) with the 739 (which was an original sCO order). Since sUA didn't have a 737 fleet (they were replaced by regional aircraft), sCO has a very large 737 fleet, and these a/c are replacements for the sUA birds.
I don't know the details about the dispatch situation, but I did read somewhere in company newsletter that flight ops would be going to the Sabre system for the whole fleet. We have two different systems as far as on the ground as well, and they want to consolidate it as well.
Quoting Reply 11): Per what agreement? There is none under the sCO side dispatch wise. You can train all the pilots you want, make any agreement with ALPA and the pilot group but the main blocking point is a sCO dispatcher can NOT dispatch a sUA crew or aircraft until a JCBA is written. Only sUA and NONE of them are trained or able to use EDS/Phoenix and the sCO dispatcher can not train sUA dispatchers. There is no "agreement" here on sCO dispatch wise. Unless they get a JCBA, its not happening.
That hasn't stopped anything. Scope has been violated before during this merger with the 170's coming into EWR. So that is nothing new. This is going to happen like it or not. Hopefully the rest of us will get JCBA's done by years end.
A comment from an Ex CON: Work Hard.....Fly Standby!
tommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6413 posts, RR: 9 Reply 15, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 5799 times:
Quoting T5towbar (Reply 14): sCO and sUA have 752's, but sUA birds are older and will be replaced (except for the P.S. configured aircraft and a few of the later builds)
Not all are going. Check the "fleet status" thread and you'll note that quite a few sUA 757s are going in for interior MX. The odd thing is that quite a few that are being kept are on the older side (like 1990 builds.)
I hate to burst your bubble but there are many sCO 757s that are almost 20 years old as well.
"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
CONTACREW From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 424 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 5757 times:
Quoting tommy767 (Reply 15): Not all are going. Check the "fleet status" thread and you'll note that quite a few sUA 757s are going in for interior MX. The odd thing is that quite a few that are being kept are on the older side (like 1990 builds.)
All sUA 752s except those getting reconfigured to the PS 2 cabin will be gone by the end of 2015.
Flight Attendants prepare doors for departure, cross check verify straps standby for all call
sonomaflyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1434 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 5743 times:
Its interesting that once again, UA is having merger issues by virtue of the fact they have UA 739ERs coming aboard and the sCO dispatchers aren't allowed under the contract to dispatch these a/c. I didn't realize it would be so monumentally difficult for UA that it would take over two years to amend the appropriate contracts and in the end, fail. It also sounds like in the same time period, they haven't managed to integrate the dispatch systems for these two airlines.
So the new 739ERs instead will be dispatched in violation of an old contract....well played
I got a kick out of the canned speeches in the earnings report this week, with glowing reports from all concerned yet they still haven't completed the basics of the merger with sorting out the labor issues. That should've been done at the front end with serious talks starting days after that announcement in 2010.
I am not sure if they are all going to be gone by year end 2015 but the vast majority should be. If UA keeps taking delivery of the 737-900ERs at the same rate as they have (2 a month...and that rate looks fairly steady.) All of the domestic 752s should be gone by the middle of 2016. I would assume that the initial MAX's will replace the 15 PS birds...
[quote=tommy767,reply=20]Then why are they bringing certain 757 in for MX if they are going to dump them in 2 years? Seems like a waste of money.
They are not spending all that much money on the interiors...new seat covers and new carpets/galley flooring are rather cheap.
The S-UA pilots will be trained to use the S-CO flight plan, logbook and all the other S-CO differences until the harmonization of the 737. In fact the 737 fleet is getting shipsets to help ease the transition. You dispatch planes not pilots correct?
How do you dispatch a flight on the S-CO side now that has a furloughed S-UA pilot as as crew member? That happens hundreds of times each day. Those pilots are all qualed under S-CO procedures. What's the difference going forward?
mcdu From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1402 posts, RR: 17 Reply 23, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 5063 times:
Quoting sonomaflyer (Reply 17): Its interesting that once again, UA is having merger issues by virtue of the fact they have UA 739ERs coming aboard and the sCO dispatchers aren't allowed under the contract to dispatch these a/c.
That is NOT the case. You can see above. The 739's will be dispatched using CO dispatchers and procedures for the time being. The S-UA pilots will operate under CO differences for now. Once SABRE flight plan and end state logbook procedures are in place on the 737 there will be no differences.
s-UA did not have a 737NG program. It makes cost sense to adopt the S-CO program. Why is that so difficult to understand? Cost are a concern in every merger item. Why waste money duplicating the S-CO program to only have joint programs after ISL in October?
sonomaflyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1434 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4981 times:
Quoting mcdu (Reply 23): It makes cost sense to adopt the S-CO program. Why is that so difficult to understand?
I totally understand that point. The issue raised about was WHETHER the sCO dispatchers would dispatch a non sCO 739ER with a sUA crew. I don't work for UA. I do work with contracts in other industries and find the airline industry completely insane when it comes so some of the more "unique" lines in the sand. If in fact the dispatchers don't have an issue with these new a/c and crews then my point isn't relevant or valid.
I guess as an outsider, I don't understand why there hasn't been a full integration on the dispatch side. Is it the contract? If that is the case then we're sitting almost three yrs since the merger announcement with that not being completed. If its systems integration, same point.
I'm more familiar with the pilot contract issues given I grew up on the sCO side though I still am amazed that the pilot integration has taken so long. The hangup in integration has cost the stakeholders millions. I'm sure someone on this board has compared DL to UA in that regard and I doubt the end results would shed UA in a favorable light.
I know there are examples such as the debacle at US but there are only so many ways to integrate seniority. Its in everyone's best interest to hammer that out asap to allow cross fleeting and rightsizing the fleet and routes. It can't happen until the airline is able to open new bases, close others and/or shift a/c around. Duplicating bases for sUA and sCO (read the 777 for example) hamstrings the airline's flexibility and therefore, profits.
[Edited 2013-07-27 16:53:13]
25 onebadlt123: In short, they were called back to go on the sCO seniority list. That's why they can fly sCO planes. I'm done arguing this until further details abou
26 sonomaflyer: Ok, they still don't have a contract and it sounds like there is a SCOPE issue thrown in . So apparently, management thinks it won't be an issue but
27 mcdu: You have zero ground to stand on. The joint seniority list will no linger designate L-CO pilots versus L-UA pilot. You dispatch planes NOT pilots. No
28 T5towbar: Till management stop slowwalking, this will continue......... I didn't say all of them were going. Just the ones being replaced with the 739. Because
29 onebadlt123: Who said anything about pilots? I dont know why you think I was saying we were bound by the pilot contract and their SLI. I know what my job entails,
30 mcdu: You guys work tail number specific? The new 739's are going into the combined fleet. Unless you has a pre merger transition agreement the company can
31 LAXintl: I think this dispatch argument needs to be taken aside, and not in this thread. Feel free to start another one if you guys so desire, but frankly its
32 QANTAS747-438: But what does sUA, sCO, PMUA, and PMCO mean or refer to?
33 CONTACREW: sCO = Subsidiary Continental sUA = Subsidiary United PMCO = Pre Merger Continental PMUA - Pre Merger United
34 RyanairGuru: To be fair, at Delta (the most wonderful merger ever, in any industry, if you believe some of the hyperbole on here) the Flight Attendants only start
35 mercure1: This labor harmonization sure take long time. When can we expect to see fully single United Airlines, and not worry about it its a CO airplane and cre
36 DualQual: A pilot seniority list is imminent. Then simply a question of company IT being ready to impliment the list. It would make sense to see the SFO 737 pi
37 RDH3E: Tommy, UA is selling a 30 757s to FedEx. We have required maintenance we must perform before delivery in accordance with the terms of the sale. In ad
38 oc2dc: So, is this a fall of the Berlin Wall moment in UA's history or is it more like a President Bush landing on an aircraft carrier, announcing we won the
39 SonomaFlyer: The following needs to happen to get this mess behind UA: 1) Complete seniority integration for the pilots and open up bids for pilots to shift to ne
40 hereandthere41: That's not true about flight attendant cross training being dependent on joint contract and seniority integration. During this entire training year,
41 777ord: Most of the sCO pilots with a seniority of 2012(ish) are from UA. But, technically it doesn't matter. Somehow we're on the "papa" employee numbers....
42 quiet1: If the pilots totally integrate (contract and seniority) will they be able to cross-fly each others' fleet even before the F/As attain integration? i.