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Why Did TWA Give Up JFK-LHR And Other Routes.  
User currently offlinedoulasc From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 534 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 8923 times:

In the late 1980s Carl Ichan sold TWA's JFK-LHR route to I believe American. That route was one of TWA's bread and butter routes,very profitable.TWA routes to Europe continued to decline from BOS,ORD,IAD and did they ever have PHL to Europe.TWA's operation at ORD really declined by 1990,all that was left was ORD-STL. When did TWA last do California-Europe non stop? In the end before the merger with American TWA had few flights to europe all leaving from JFK and I think a STL-LGW,

39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16866 posts, RR: 51
Reply 1, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 8911 times:

Quoting doulasc (Thread starter):
In the late 1980s Carl Ichan sold TWA's JFK-LHR route to I believe American.



It was 1991, and TWA was broke. Pan Am was first in selling their assets, first their Pacific Operation to UA, then their Heathrow rights also to UA, then their Trans-Atlantic/JFK/Frankfurt hub to DL and finally UA acquired PA's Latin America operation in Pan Am's Bankruptcy liquidation.

http://www.nytimes.com/1990/12/17/bu...rom-twa.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

The sale bought TWA a few more years.

[Edited 2013-08-02 20:17:50]


Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20640 posts, RR: 62
Reply 2, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 8898 times:

Quoting doulasc (Thread starter):
In the late 1980s Carl Ichan sold TWA's JFK-LHR route to I believe American.

Icahn wanted the money. Tons available on the interwebs about it.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineckfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5236 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 8618 times:

Quoting doulasc (Thread starter):
TWA's operation at ORD really declined by 1990,all that was left was ORD-STL.

In the early 1990s, TWA did have 1 or 2 roundtrips to JFK to connect with its European arrivals and departures.

There were two main reasons why TWA abandoned ORD, having been for years in competition with ORD for being the #2 carrier at ORD.

First, the delays at ORD were getting worse and worse. DL built Concourse L, giving them 10 gates, and they had more widebody capable gates on L then their old gates on H.

Yet, DL was finding the same problem as TWA. The delays were increasing, and there were other airports in the Midwest that had less traffic and would offer a chance to run a hub that wasn't as delay-prove as ORD.

Second, AA and UA were expanding, post-deregulation. As other airlines reduced their ORD presence, they were selling slots to AA and UA. So, AA and UA were offering most destinations. When DL left H, AA took all of the gates. When NC merged with NW, they consolidated operations in Terminal 2, and AA tooke the H gates. UA built a brand new Terminal 1 with far more gates that it had in Terminal 2 on Concourses E and F.

When the two principal competitors at ORD were growing very quickly, and TWA didn't have the room to expand, trying to compete at ORD stopped being an option. Thus, the move to STL.

TWA held onto ORD-LHR for some time. It wasn't until the early 1990s, that TWA sold the route to AA, separate from the other sale of the rest of the LHR/LGW authorities.

But even in the late 1980s, TWA was reducing its presence and subletting gate space on G to AA. I remember in the early 1990s that AC had G1. TWA had a couple of gates on the even side of G, away from the security checkpoint. AA had some mainline on G and the rest was Eagle. By the mid 1990s, TWA had moved to Terminal 2.


User currently offlinezrs70 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 3170 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 8521 times:

For a while, TW had quite a transatlantic operation out of BOS. Service to LHR and CDG was consistent. Over the eyars, they also had flights to FCO, LIS, and SNN/DUB.


14 year airliners.net vet! 2000-2013
User currently offlinecha747 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 785 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 8419 times:

Quoting doulasc (Thread starter):
did they ever have PHL to Europe.

TWA had a PHL-LGW flight that remained through the early 90's that, I believe was operated by an L1011,until it was picked-up by US in the mid-90's and then got changed from LGW to LHR. This was also during the same time TWA's commuter operation operated a flight from PHL to Northeast Philadelphia airport.



You land a million planes safely, then you have one little mid-air and you never hear the end of it - Pushing Tin
User currently offlineskywaymanaz From United States of America, joined May 2012, 520 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 8268 times:

I flew PHL-LHR on a TWA 707 once in the late 70's. It is possible that the route moved to LGW at some point but likely not until STL-LGW started. The route was PHL-LHR at the time of the sale to AA. I believe that was one of the routes denied by DOJ or DOT and was eventually sold to US as PHL-LGW.

User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9376 posts, RR: 29
Reply 7, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 8217 times:

They had an STL-FRA flight as well with 762s. Did not last very long and they never made money on that, actually the break even load factor required was 108% .

Sad story about one of the great US airlines



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinesevenheavy From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 1156 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 8151 times:

Quoting doulasc (Thread starter):
In the late 1980s Carl Ichan sold TWA's JFK-LHR route to I believe American. That route was one of TWA's bread and butter routes,very profitable.TWA routes to Europe continued to decline from BOS,ORD,IAD and did they ever have PHL to Europe.TWA's operation at ORD really declined by 1990,all that was left was ORD-STL. When did TWA last do California-Europe non stop? In the end before the merger with American TWA had few flights to europe all leaving from JFK and I think a STL-LGW,

As mentioned above, TWA were basically desperate for cash and the LHR slots were one of their few remaining valuable assets.

They actually sold ORD-LHR to AA (I think it was for $50m) a few months prior to the rest of the LHR slots. This was initially to be operated by AA into LGW, but that requirement disappeared when they bought out the rest of TWA's LHR slots.

The main transaction included JFK (TW700/701, TW702/703, TW708/709), LAX (TW760/761), BOS (TW754/753). In addition, TWA were to move their PHL route to LGW which would allow AA to operate LHR-MIA.

LHR-PHL was initially an L-1011 but moved to a B762 from 1986 or so.

Initially after the sell off TWA maintained up to 5 daily flights from LGW; BWI, PHL and STL (sometimes 2 x daily) as well as a tag on to FRA. BWI/PHL were sold in due course although STL stayed until the end

That temporarily left TWA with no non stop West coast - Europe non stops. They started LAX-CDG around 1993 or so with a B763 which lasted a couple of years.

CDG was a decent hub for some time, and had more flights than LHR with service to BOS, JFK, IAD, and LAX as well as TLV, ATH, FCO, GVA, ZRH and others at various points.

Despite initially saying they would increase their European presence from JFK the core routes slowly but surely disappeared. VIE, OSL, ARN, ATH and even FRA were axed. There were others too. Apparently they were a victim of the ludicrous Karabu agreement with Icahn. It was far better for TWA to start new routes or route people through STL. This is one of the main reasons why "focus cities" were started (and sometimes ended!) in ATL, LAX and SJU



So long 701, it was nice knowing you.
User currently offlineskywaymanaz From United States of America, joined May 2012, 520 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 8152 times:

Yup I flew on the STL-FRA in '85. The ETOPS 767's were marked with a ===TWA=== stripe on the engine. TWA realized a little to late, and only really after flight 800, that the twins were the way to go for most of their transatlantic routes.

User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26978 posts, RR: 57
Reply 10, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 8123 times:

That was a very sad day when they ended LHR operations. There is a youtube video with the last flight and a low pass cant find the link but very moving.

User currently offlineAeri28 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 706 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 8116 times:

I always remember growing up in LA during the 70s. My sisters friend and her father flew LAX to LHR on TWA in 1977. I was envious, but she did bring me some momentos from the plane. The propeller coffee stirrers, deck of cards, emergency cards from the 747 and some napkins which were white with blue depictions of European landmarks (colosseum, big ben, eiffel tower).

I also had a friend who flew in 1985 from Washington DC to "somewhere in Switzerland", not sure if it stopped off in Paris or not first, then after Switzerland, it continued on to Istanbul. She was going to visit her friend in Geneva, but I am no longer certain if that flight stopped in Geneva or Zurich. Anybody know? It was an L1011.


User currently offlineSpaceshipDC10 From Canada, joined Jan 2013, 1785 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 7948 times:

Quoting sevenheavy (Reply 8):
CDG was a decent hub for some time, and had more flights than LHR with service to BOS, JFK, IAD, and LAX as well as TLV, ATH, FCO, GVA, ZRH and others at various points.

Despite initially saying they would increase their European presence from JFK the core routes slowly but surely disappeared. VIE, OSL, ARN, ATH and even FRA were axed.

I remember that around 1993 or 1994 I checked their routes map in their timetables quite regularly and, for a while (not sure how long), they served JFK-GVA-VIE and JFK-GVA-MUC. I believe it was with a 767 but I don't remember the frequency.



KEEP LOOKING UP as in Space Fan News
User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3938 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 7746 times:

Pictures in the database of TWA in Oslo, Norway 1989 / 1990 at the now closed Fornebu Airport (FBU):


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ole Johan Beck
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ole Johan Beck



[Edited 2013-08-03 05:26:38]

User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8372 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 7705 times:
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Quoting doulasc (Thread starter):
In the late 1980s Carl Ichan sold TWA's JFK-LHR route to I believe American.

TWA sold JFK, BOS and LAX to AA for $445 million dollars. TWA had been owned since 1984 by Wall Street raider Carl Icahn who milked the airline dry, selling the LHR routes was just part of the strategy to monetize his investment.


User currently offlinejetstar From United States of America, joined May 2003, 1648 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 7564 times:
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Quoting sevenheavy (Reply 8):
They actually sold ORD-LHR to AA (I think it was for $50m) a few months prior to the rest of the LHR slots. This was initially to be operated by AA into LGW, but that requirement disappeared when they bought out the rest of TWA's LHR slots.


I believe TWA sold the ORD to LHR route for $195m to AA in addition to the over $400m AA paid for the JFK/BOS/LAX to LHR routes. A nice haul for Carl Ichan, and basically the beginning of the end for TWA.

JetStar


User currently offlinejfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3476 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 7522 times:

The decline of TWA is really an interesting, sad, and slow story. They were bascially shrinking and on their way to the grave for close to 15 years.

Icahn is an evil character thrown into the story. He was and still is a corporate raider that wants to make money for himself. He had no interest in saving or building TWA into something. Instead he took the equity by taking them private, sold off profitable assets, and left them with little to no business plan going forward. Oh and he got himself a ticketing agreement on the way out that directly led to them going out of business. Even tried to get AA to continue it when they bought the pieces.


User currently offlineSpaceshipDC10 From Canada, joined Jan 2013, 1785 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 7452 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 10):
There is a youtube video with the last flight and a low pass cant find the link but very moving.

There it is.

http://youtu.be/5CT-cSpTjBU



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User currently onlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3750 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 7214 times:

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 16):
Oh and he got himself a ticketing agreement on the way out that directly led to them going out of business. Even tried to get AA to continue it when they bought the pieces.

That ticketing agreement was the sole reason why lowestfare.com (an Icahn-owned company) existed. After AA scuttled the so-called Karabu deal in bankruptcy court, lowestfare.com was dead a few months later.

Quoting jetstar (Reply 15):
I believe TWA sold the ORD to LHR route for $195m to AA in addition to the over $400m AA paid for the JFK/BOS/LAX to LHR routes. A nice haul for Carl Ichan, and basically the beginning of the end for TWA.

IIRC, TWA made more in profits from their LHR routes per year than what they sold the LHR routes to AA for. It's like what Pan Am did when they sold the Pacific Division to UA - PA could have been swimming in cash from the Asian economic boom of the late 1980s and early to mid 1990s had they waited a year or two and kept the routes.

[Edited 2013-08-03 09:26:11]


"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26978 posts, RR: 57
Reply 19, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 7112 times:

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 17):
There it is.

http://youtu.be/5CT-cSpTjBU

Thanks. Fantastic video. So many highly trained people who really knew their job. Very hard to get these days. Funny I noticed at 3.06 the guy looks like a young Willie Walsh  


User currently offlinethegoldenargosy From United States of America, joined Sep 2010, 379 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 6229 times:

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 17):
There it is.

http://youtu.be/5CT-cSpTjBU

At 4:44 in the video shows Flight Attendant Rosemary Braman-Mosberg who a deadheading on Flight 800. She's the flight attendant with the blond bangs.


User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1924 posts, RR: 21
Reply 21, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5570 times:

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 18):
Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 16):
Oh and he got himself a ticketing agreement on the way out that directly led to them going out of business. Even tried to get AA to continue it when they bought the pieces.

That ticketing agreement was the sole reason why lowestfare.com (an Icahn-owned company) existed. After AA scuttled the so-called Karabu deal in bankruptcy court, lowestfare.com was dead a few months later.

That truly was a fatal burden on TWA, major loss in pricing power and revenue generation for them. Letting TWA go to Carl Icahn was a fateful decision, who knows what might have happened if Lorenzo had won out, but we know now what happened under Icahn. The unions getting grabby near the end when TWA's finances were looking not-quite-as-desperate as before certainly didn't help either.


User currently offlineSpaceshipDC10 From Canada, joined Jan 2013, 1785 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5414 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 21):
who knows what might have happened if Lorenzo had won out

I don't think it would have been any better than with Icahn. There wouldn't have been Karabu or probably anything alike. Without even looking at what happened at Eastern, lets remember what Lorenzo did at CO when it grounded the company through chapter 11 protection almost thirty years ago (September 24, 1983).

Captains paid $90,000 before would be invited back to work at $43,000 a year. Flight attendants that earned $35,700 before would have to adjust to $15,000. Mechanics would receive $20,800 instead of $33,200. This was because of the new Braniff on which wages Lorenzo's team based theirs since they were free to impose whatever terms they wished. (Source: Hard Landing)



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User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8372 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5239 times:
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Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 21):
That truly was a fatal burden on TWA, major loss in pricing power and revenue generation for them. Letting TWA go to Carl Icahn was a fateful decision, who knows what might have happened if Lorenzo had won out, but we know now what happened under Icahn. The unions getting grabby near the end when TWA's finances were looking not-quite-as-desperate as before certainly didn't help either.

TWA was NOT sold to Lorenzo for what he did at Continental, Icahn had no bad history but we sadly know how TWA ended. Carl Icahn was the "least bad" option, the lesser of two evils. Its too bad Northwest never merged with TWA as they were a Asian power and TWA an Atlantic power.


User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1924 posts, RR: 21
Reply 24, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5131 times:

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 22):
Without even looking at what happened at Eastern, lets remember what Lorenzo did at CO when it grounded the company through chapter 11 protection almost thirty years ago (September 24, 1983).

I'm sure it would have been tumultuous, but at least CO survived....

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 23):
Icahn had no bad history but we sadly know how TWA ended.

Icahn definitely had a notorious reputation at the time, he was a known corporate raider. I realize Lorenzo was toxic at the time, but compared to Icahn? Again, we'll never really know, but I doubt TW would have sold their LHR rights or have been saddled with Karabu had Lorenzo won out.


25 SpaceshipDC10 : In Hard Landing: For six routes to Heathrow Crandall forked over $445 miilion. Yes it survived, but only barely. At the end of 1990 or early in 1991
26 quickmover : Does anyone know what Icahn initially paid for TWA?
27 Post contains links Viscount724 : $469 million according to this article. http://www.investopedia.com/articles...cial-theory/08/carl-icahn-lift.asp Excerpt: TWA was the pinnacle of Ic
28 ozark1 : Just curious, did the TW people in LHR get hired by AA?
29 ttailsteve : Carl Icahn and Frank Lorenzo are both brilliant businessmen. Lorenzo created the largest airline system in the free world. (Only airline larger was Ae
30 flyguy89 : I can't speak for Eastern, but while the unions may not have helped, incompetent management played a huge role in TWA's demise. After Hughes relinqui
31 jfk777 : We all know Icahn sold LHR, ok. What Lorenzo did at Eastern was far worse. Transferring System One and the 6 A300 to Continetal for starters. No airl
32 rfields5421 : The CO name survived, but the airline was replaced with something less. And thousands of employees lost everything. That is the key issue. The system
33 SpaceshipDC10 : Unions are there to defend employees. If employees are cornered by incompetent management after years of neglect and stupid investments, one can't ex
34 flyguy89 : Not really, Eastern was hemorrhaging cash when Lorenzo took over thanks to massive debt accrued under previous management and chronic labor unrest. L
35 rickabone : IIRC the unions at TWA weren't fighting for a pay increase, but rather fighting against ANOTHER pay cut after they had already agreed to one.
36 WA707atMSP : AA's LHR-MIA authority is totally unrelated to PHL. AA purchased MIA-LGW from Texas Air, as part of the acquisition of Eastern's Latin American route
37 jfk777 : PHL to LHR was operated by TWA but was not approved by the DOT in the AA transaction. BWI also was not approved to AA, so BWI and PHL were transferre
38 WA707atMSP : Eastern was badly wounded long before Frank Borman. Among the factors contributing to EA's decline pre-Borman: (1) After World War II, the CAB decide
39 flyguy89 : Well there were so many such situations, but the one I'm referring to was around 1999ish. TWA was just starting to bring in positive numbers, it was
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