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New Zealand Aviation Part 132  
User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12082 posts, RR: 18
Posted (11 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 19446 times:
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Welcome to the 132nd edition of the New Zealand Aviation Threads. Link to the 131st edition New Zealand Aviation Part 131 (by 777ER Jul 14 2013 in Civil Aviation)

215 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineA330NZ From New Zealand, joined Dec 2010, 201 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (11 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 19355 times:

Quoting davidByrne (Previous thread)

Quote:
Why not have a later departure from AKL to allow connections from Cairns and Adelaide (arr AKL 1810-1820)?

I'm not sure any business people connecting from NZ104/704 from SYD (arr 16:35 - 16:45) would be too happy about waiting for 3+ hours for their connection when QF flies direct to SCL with LA providing connections on the other end. I'm pretty sure there will be a more connecting traffic from SYD then CNS and ADL combined


User currently offlineAndrensn From New Zealand, joined Jun 2012, 70 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (11 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 19265 times:

Quote from lats thread - keen2fly:
With all this extra capacity coming in it surely must be crossing the minds of those in the offices, the time seems perfectly ripe.

With EK about to 3 a380s to Auckland in quick succession every day how is AKL going to handle that with only 2 double aero-bridges.

Thanks
Andrensn


User currently offlinezkncj From New Zealand, joined Nov 2005, 490 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (11 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 19130 times:

Quoting Andrensn (Reply 2):
With EK about to 3 a380s to Auckland in quick succession every day how is AKL going to handle that with only 2 double aero-bridges.

Stairs and busses?


User currently offlinekeen2fly From New Zealand, joined Jul 2010, 54 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (11 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 19073 times:

Quoting Andrensn (Reply 2):
how is AKL going to handle that with only 2 double aero-bridges.

I think in the last thread it was mentioned that gate 10 was being upgraded to have two airbridges. IMO I think it is a very welcome measure, but a very stop-gap one at that. It doesn't really address the problem of adding more gates, it only upgrades an existing one to bring the number up to the bare minimum for the number of A380's coming in.


User currently offlinedavidByrne From New Zealand, joined Sep 2007, 1633 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (11 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 19016 times:

Quoting A330NZ (Reply 1):
Quoting davidByrne (Previous thread)

Quote:
Why not have a later departure from AKL to allow connections from Cairns and Adelaide (arr AKL 1810-1820)?

I'm not sure any business people connecting from NZ104/704 from SYD (arr 16:35 - 16:45) would be too happy about waiting for 3+ hours for their connection when QF flies direct to SCL with LA providing connections on the other end. I'm pretty sure there will be a more connecting traffic from SYD then CNS and ADL combined

We're not necessarily talking 3+ hours, but maybe 2h 45m or thereabouts. The same argument could be made for SYD pax connecting to AKL's North American "wave" of departures that occurs at 1915/1940/2000 most nights. Despite there being direct flights to LAX/SFO/YVR from SYD, anecdotally NZ still does good business from pax who choose NZ for whatever reason for this trip. And if the "long" layover is indeed an impediment, there is always the possibility of rescheduling the SYD-AKL leg up to half an hour later. Given the SYD-AKL aircraft then returns to SYD for a 1900 arrival and overnight, there's clearly enough room in the timetable to make that happen - if, as I say, it was perceived as a problem (which obviously, at the moment, it isn't).

And while acknowledging that the amount of traffic to Latin America from ADL and CNS may not be so great, I don't think that thinking should preclude a timetable that make that possible at pretty close to zero extra cost (if any) to the airline.



This is not my beautiful house . . . This is not my beautiful wife
User currently offlineZkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4802 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 18878 times:

Speaking of connections, I have heard that NZ is telling pax that are connecting from the PER-AKL flight to North America flights that they must remain airside or they have to collect their bags and check them in later that day.
1) That sounds stupid to me. The bags have been screened so no harm in having them in transit.
2) why wouldn't they want people to get out of the airport?
3) what's to stop people just leaving the airport (so long as they meet entry requirements)?



56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12082 posts, RR: 18
Reply 7, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 18872 times:
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Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 6):

That's a stupid requirement! How will NZ know if a pax has left the secure area and gone outside? What is so wrong with leaving your bags in transit?

Do transit pax who are flying in J or Koru/Star Gold gain entry to the lounge?


User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7155 posts, RR: 13
Reply 8, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 18746 times:

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 6):
Speaking of connections, I have heard that NZ is telling pax that are connecting from the PER-AKL flight to North America flights that they must remain airside or they have to collect their bags and check them in later that day.

There is no way of enforcing that at all. It sounds like an urban myth. While NZ can find out who has arrived/cleared customs nobody does. It does not happen, because if it did it would be in my department.

What I do know is that NZ176 pax feature relatively often as offloaded NZ6/NZ2 passengers. Usually because they do not clear back through departures again because they do not allow enough time to get back to the airport.

Quoting 777ER (Reply 7):
Do transit pax who are flying in J or Koru/Star Gold gain entry to the lounge?

Of course they do.


User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12082 posts, RR: 18
Reply 9, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 18737 times:
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Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 8):
Quoting 777ER (Reply 7):Do transit pax who are flying in J or Koru/Star Gold gain entry to the lounge?

Of course they do.

Being able to gain entry to the lounge will certainly make a 2-3 hour layover go faster so its good that NZ allows entry to those transit pax


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25004 posts, RR: 85
Reply 10, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 18740 times:
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Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 6):
Speaking of connections, I have heard that NZ is telling pax that are connecting from the PER-AKL flight to North America flights that they must remain airside or they have to collect their bags and check them in later that day.

Are there many pax flying PER-AKL-North America, do you know?

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 18551 times:

Quoting A330NZ (Reply 1):
I'm pretty sure there will be a more connecting traffic from SYD then CNS and ADL combined

I don't agree at all.

(By the way, I liked your modelling of the timetable).

As I wrote earlier, you need to weigh up the inbound and outbound markets which would be involved in any Air NZ-operated NZ-South America flight(s), especially bearing in mind that Santiago is already served by the preferred airline of Chilean passengers.

1) EASTBOUND TRAFFIC TO SOUTH AMERICA:
a) Business market small, mainly Sydney/Melbourne to Brazil. NZ Business market essentially non-existent beyond what LAN already covers.
b) Leisure market from Australia at least five times the size of from New Zealand, but Chile and Argentina already covered, with Brazil the major untapped market.

2) WESTBOUND LEISURE TRAFFIC FROM SOUTH AMERICA:
a) Business market: as above, Chile and Argentina already well-served, remaining (and much bigger) untapped market is Brazil.
b) Leisure traffic.........
- Chile/Peru to NZ and Australia well-covered.
- Argentina to Australia already well-covered.
- Brazil is the biggest and least-tapped market, BUT there is almost no reason to imagine that there would be any interest whatsoever in leisure travel to New Zealand, as almost every tourist activity other than Polynesian culture can be found either across the border in Uruguay, or in the Andes or in the Alps.
- Apart from VFR (which again is five times bigger between Brazil and Australia as opposed to New Zealand), the only significant leisure markets that I could imagine being served from Brazil on Air New Zealand would either be connecting on to see Sydney, which is well-established as a major world city, or the Great Barrier Reef, which is where Cairns comes in.

Quite honestly, I'd expect the demand of Brazilian leisure travellers on Air NZ continuing on to Cairns to be as high as for the whole of New Zealand combined, and second only to Sydney.

I mean no disrespect to Queenstown when I say that, I just can't imagine why anyone would travel from Brazil all that way to see scenery that is less spectacular than similar landscapes which are available on their doorstep.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25004 posts, RR: 85
Reply 12, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 18509 times:
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Quoting koruman (Reply 11):
I mean no disrespect to Queenstown when I say that, I just can't imagine why anyone would travel from Brazil all that way to see scenery that is less spectacular than similar landscapes which are available on their doorstep.

Um - perhaps because it isn't on their doorstep? To them it is "exotic"?

It's easy enough to understand why the rich fly from London to Aspen to ski but it is less easy to understand why the not-so-rich fly from London to Steamboat Springs - when the Swiss Alps are a lot closer. The skiing ain't bad in Scotland, come to that, not as dramatic, perhaps.

I doubt many Brazilians would come to NZ just to ski - maybe on their way to Australia - but there is an innate desire in people to travel, to see somewhere "different."

When you list the wonders of Australia I wonder why any tourists come here at all. But they do.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently onlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6406 posts, RR: 39
Reply 13, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 18479 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 12):
I doubt many Brazilians would come to NZ just to ski - maybe on their way to Australia - but there is an innate desire in people to travel, to see somewhere "different."

Maybe not.. But a lot visit Queenstown anyway; be it for the youth life, a stopping point to say Milford Sound or whatever else, I don't know.



It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 18465 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 12):
When you list the wonders of Australia I wonder why any tourists come here at all. But they do.

It gets back to the issue of historical links, doesn't it?

Every adult in the international travel demographics in the UK, Ireland and Australia knows New Zealanders and almost all are familiar with the country's major attractions. That's why the percentage of British people who holiday in New Zealand is so much higher than that of Chinese people, for example.

But basically, New Zealand is a holiday for British people which is far away but also poses no problems with language, holiday illnesses, etc.

The same is not true of Lusophone travellers, and I'd no more expect mass market Brazilian inbound tourism than from Portugal.

But having said that, I do have a plan for how I would grow inbound tourism from the rapidly expanding group of affluent Brazilians.

By law, the minimum annual leave entitlement in Brazil after 1 year's service is one month per year. That means that inbound leisure tourism from Brazil is a completely different animal from US tourism.

If I were Air New Zealand, I would partner with a major travel agency in Brazil. And I would emphatically NOT make all flights to/from Brazil non-stop.

Rather, I would operate two weekly non-stop services to Sao Paulo PLUS I would continue the Auckland-Papeete 789 on to Sao Paulo twice weekly.

This then opens up the opportunity to offer the following sort of itinerary to Brazilians:

Day 1: Fly GRU-AKL-SYD, 4 nights in Sydney.
Day 5: Fly SYD-CNS, 3 nights in Cairns.
Day 8: Fly CNS-AKL, transfer to Rotorua for 3 nights.
Day 11: Fly to ZQN, 4 nights in Queenstown.
Day 15: Fly ZQN-AKL-PPT, overnight at Tahiti.
Day 16: Fly PPT-BOB, 5 nights in Bora Bora.
Day 21: Fly BOB-PPT-GRU

I simply do not believe that a significant number of non-VFR Brazilian visitors would make the effort to holiday in New Zealand.

But I think it is a win-win situation if Air New Zealand gets to carry them on this sort of itinerary, and if they spend 1/3 of a three week trip in New Zealand. I absolutely do believe that a trip to Sydney, the Great Barrier Reef and Bora Bora would appeal to affluent Brazilians, and if we could insert a week in NZ in the middle, fantastic.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25004 posts, RR: 85
Reply 15, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 18442 times:
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Quoting koruman (Reply 14):
But basically, New Zealand is a holiday for British people which is far away but also poses no problems with language, holiday illnesses, etc.

Since China is now NZ's second largest tourist market, the appeal seems to be rather more than to the Brits.

http://www.med.govt.nz/sectors-indus...019s-second-largest-tourist-market

China now New Zealand’s second largest tourist market

I don't think "historical links" comes into it with the Chinese, rather the reverse - considering how we used to treat 'em.

We don't even have what they have in Bendigo - the world's longest silk dragon - but still the Chinese come here.

Quoting koruman (Reply 14):
I simply do not believe that a significant number of non-VFR Brazilian visitors would make the effort to holiday in New Zealand.

Maybe not. But they might combine it with Australia, as so many others do.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 18438 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 15):
Since China is now NZ's second largest tourist market, the appeal seems to be rather more than to the Brits.

Their population is 20 times larger, and there are not that many more Chinese visitors than Poms, so by definition Chinese people are 20 times less likely to visit NZ than British people. They just outnumber them.

Quoting mariner (Reply 15):
But they might combine it with Australia, as so many others do

That was my point, wasn't it?

The two attractions which will get Brazilian leisure travellers to fly Air NZ are Sydney and the Great Barrier Reef.

But one asset that New Zealand and Air New Zealand has is that Auckland is a viable transfer point en route, just like Dubai is on the Kangaroo Route.

But the second asset that both have is that New Zealand and Air New Zealand also facilitate a return stopover in French Polynesia, and I believe that the affluent Brazilian long-haul leisure demographic is considerably more likely to fancy a stay on Bora Bora than Queenstown.

But if you make New Zealand the link in the middle of a trip to Australia and Bora Bora, hey presto, you have a reason for Brazilians to spend time in New Zealand.


User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12082 posts, RR: 18
Reply 17, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 18367 times:
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- NZ and VA are asking for permission to continue their codeshare for another 5 years instead of the 3 years the ACCC is wanting to give them. NZ and VA are requesting 5 years to enable them both to better fight the QF/EK alliance.

- NZ/VA are also asking for permission to combine ZQN/CHC/DUD/WLG - BNE flights into one group because QF/EK have been given permission to do the exact group operation.

- NZ/DJ say that WLG-BNE and several other routes have too much capacity under the current deal and is restricting other routes from growing. ROT supports this view

http://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/8994563/Air-NZ-and-Virgin-want-more-time


Could someone explain how combining the ZQN/CHC/DUD/WLG - BNE flights would work?


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25004 posts, RR: 85
Reply 18, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 18319 times:
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Quoting koruman (Reply 16):
Their population is 20 times larger, and there are not that many more Chinese visitors than Poms, so by definition Chinese people are 20 times less likely to visit NZ than British people. They just outnumber them.

And not so long ago, there were no Chinese visitors. The growth in their numbers over twenty (?) years is remarkable.

Something other than "historical associations" is bringing them here.

Quoting koruman (Reply 16):
That was my point, wasn't it?

I just disagree with your negative assessment of NZ as a tourist destination.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinezkncj From New Zealand, joined Nov 2005, 490 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 18300 times:

Quoting 777ER (Reply 17):
Could someone explain how combining the ZQN/CHC/DUD/WLG - BNE flights would work?

It allows them to group the minimum seat capacity on these routes into a single group, so along as they provide X amount of seats to BNE, they can be either from ZQN/CHC/DUD/WLG.


User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12082 posts, RR: 18
Reply 20, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 18249 times:
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Quoting zkncj (Reply 19):

Thanks. Just as I was suspecting. I'm sure DUD would end up being the biggest looser followed by WLG if that was to happen.


User currently onlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6406 posts, RR: 39
Reply 21, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 18232 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 14):
If I were Air New Zealand, I would partner with a major travel agency in Brazil. And I would emphatically NOT make all flights to/from Brazil non-stop.

Why not try to jump onto the Brazil-Japan bandwagon while launching GRU/GIG? 2x weekly nonstop wouldn't do much in the way of that I wouldn't think; unless they strike a deal with TN with their PPT-NRT flights.



It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently offlineVirginFlyer From New Zealand, joined Sep 2000, 4537 posts, RR: 41
Reply 22, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 18222 times:

A Fiji Airways 737-700 operating FJ430 AKL-SUV returned to Auckland this morning after what appears to be some sort of engine issue: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10908391

V/F



"So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth." - Bahá'u'lláh
User currently offlineZKOJH From China, joined Sep 2004, 1659 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 18223 times:

in regards to the FJ issue this morning r.e engine problems , I find it strange that they would send '' approximately 14 fire trucks, including specialist ones like foam tenders and hose layers.

If this is what you get for a 737-700 how many would you need to send for an A380 ??! take in to account that by Oct EK will have 3 on the ground at once.

does AKL have the correct number of fire trucks?? do they even have fire trucks that can deal with A380's? ( I know some would come from other towns close to the airport)

But as AKL grows by airlines - should they be thinking about increasing the 'Fire rescue response department?



NZ 787-9 flying between PVG - AKL ! CAN'T WAIT!!
User currently offlinegasman From New Zealand, joined Mar 2004, 859 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 18226 times:

Quoting ZKOJH (Reply 23):
I find it strange that they would send '' approximately 14 fire trucks, including specialist ones like foam tenders and hose layers.

If this is what you get for a 737-700 how many would you need to send for an A380 ??!

I doubt it works quite like that. I would imagine that everyone who was free to respond at the time did so - not because it was "necessary" by some measure, but to make the most of the real-world scenario from a training and continuing education perspective.


User currently offlineaklrno From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 921 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 18363 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 12):
It's easy enough to understand why the rich fly from London to Aspen to ski but it is less easy to understand why the not-so-rich fly from London to Steamboat Springs - when the Swiss Alps are a lot closer. The skiing ain't bad in Scotland, come to that, not as dramatic, perhaps.

Possibly because when all costs are added up, Colorado costs less.

I meet a lot of European tourists at the Sierra resorts who tell me they saved a lot of money by skiing in the US instead of Europe.


User currently offlineaklrno From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 921 posts, RR: 0
Reply 26, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 18350 times:

Quoting gasman (Reply 24):
I doubt it works quite like that. I would imagine that everyone who was free to respond at the time did so - not because it was "necessary" by some measure, but to make the most of the real-world scenario from a training and continuing education perspective.

That's one good reason, but I also think you should send everyone you have if they have nothing better to do. All it really costs is a bit of fuel for the trucks. I used to be the president of a local government agency that included a fire service component. We had two levels of response, everyone on duty and everyone within 20 miles (it was in the Sierra Nevada, fairly rural, heavily and flammably forested.) If the first responders thought it was big (they were on site in 3-4 minutes) then it escalated to everyone you could find. Its easy to send them home.


User currently offlineVirginFlyer From New Zealand, joined Sep 2000, 4537 posts, RR: 41
Reply 27, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 18514 times:

Quoting ZKOJH (Reply 23):
If this is what you get for a 737-700 how many would you need to send for an A380 ??! take in to account that by Oct EK will have 3 on the ground at once.

Interestingly, the requirement set out under Civil Aviation Rules Part 139 (paragraphs 59 and 63) is for a minimum of three vehicles, although reading that again it only shows up to aerodrome category 9, and according to Advisory Circular 139-4 an A380 requires category 10. I'm not certain if that necessitates another vehicle or not, but either way 14 definitely exceeds the minimum requirement.

V/F



"So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth." - Bahá'u'lláh
User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12082 posts, RR: 18
Reply 28, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 18508 times:
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Quoting ZKOJH (Reply 23):
If this is what you get for a 737-700 how many would you need to send for an A380 ??! take in to account that by Oct EK will have 3 on the ground at once.

Depends on the aircraft type/incident. First response will always be airport fire crews depending on the aircraft and if required local fire vehicles will respond to assist. When an NZ Link ATR had an engine fire at WLG a few years ago, only one local fire appliance responded to assist airport crews. When a Cessna flipped on landing at WLG about 12 months prior only airport crews and two Wellington Free Ambulances (1 ambulance and an incident command car) responded with WIAL rescue 1, 2 and 5.

When a call comes in (like the FJ incident) the fire service will dispatch the minimum turn out required (like what also happened at SFO last month and request further vehicles when required (2nd alarm, 3rd alarm, 4th alarm, 5th alarm etc). Since the aircraft landed safely and the engine fire appeared to be out not all 14 fire appliances would have remained on scene.

Just remember the media usually never get things right about lots of things and I'm doubting the 14 responding appliances claim, but if 14 did then here is what they would have been

AKL have 6x crash tenders, 3x SUVs with one used as a medical response and 1x 27,500 litre water tanker so if all those responded thats 10 vehicles. Local Fire Service vehicles that would have responded are Mangere x1, Papatoetoe x2 (possibly also Papatoetoe technical rescue tender) and either Otahuhu or Otara. Hose layer would be Otahuhu but that vehicle co-responds with Otahuhu's other truck


User currently offlineZKOJH From China, joined Sep 2004, 1659 posts, RR: 1
Reply 29, posted (11 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 17136 times:

''Air force in crisis after Air NZ raid''

The air force has contingency plans to ask former pilots to prepare for a return to service as an aggressive Air New Zealand recruiting campaign has left it monitoring its ability to keep planes in the air.

The Herald has learned the lure of flying for the national airline has become so attractive that concerns have even been raised with senior officers at headquarters.

It comes after Air New Zealand asked the Government to include the job of "pilot" to the list of those categorised as a skill shortage. The listing speeds the path of pilots through immigration.

A spokesman for the Royal New Zealand Air Force said it was aware of Air New Zealand's interest in its pilots, had lost some and accepted more might yet choose to go.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10909660



NZ 787-9 flying between PVG - AKL ! CAN'T WAIT!!
User currently offlinezkojq From New Zealand, joined Sep 2011, 1140 posts, RR: 1
Reply 30, posted (11 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 16933 times:

In the last thread someone wanted a photo of the three Emirates aircraft at Christchurch.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151621069188541&set=a.308422673540.149240.261458563540&type=1&relevant_count=1

Does anyone know the identity of the Dornier 328 Jet that was parked outside the Air National hangar on Saturday night?



Someone repaint ZK-PBG!
User currently offlinehaggis73 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2010, 112 posts, RR: 0
Reply 31, posted (11 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 16845 times:

Quoting zkojq (Reply 30):
Does anyone know the identity of the Dornier 328 Jet that was parked outside the Air National hangar on Saturday night?

Belongs to North South Airlines of Manila, N821MW. Currently up for sale I'm led to believe. Departing tomorrow morning for Australia via NLK.


User currently offlineDavidByrne From New Zealand, joined Sep 2007, 1633 posts, RR: 2
Reply 32, posted (11 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 16763 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 14):
I'd no more expect mass market Brazilian inbound tourism than from Portugal.

Time may tell on this. But I don't think we're talking "mass market" tourism anyway. Brazil is a huge country with a significant middle class, and I think there are many opportunities to be found in astute marketing to support perhaps initially a thrice-weekly NZ service.

I'm constantly surprised how many young Brazilians that I hear on the streets of central Auckland, where I live. Brazilians' wonderfully louche experiment with Portuguese is so recognisable, and seductive. Children of the middle class, they're on their OE (and probably language training) before returning to some kind of business or professional career. Many will establish business and personal links with NZ which may be enduring and which will in turn encourage others.

So the market I see includes business flyers (small market at present, but growing and has potential), middle-class vacationers (astute marketing cooperation between Tourism NZ and the airline required) and young Brazilians on a bit of life experience and language upskilling at the bottom end. No VFR market, of course. But there must also be very significant opportunities in allowing Brazilians to access most of Australia, a much larger market than our own, without having to endure a transit stop at SYD. It would be very significant competition for QF, LA and AR. And likewise, easier transits for Australians travelling to Latin America.

Fares to South America are so high - I've been trying to price a trip taking in several of the South American highlights, but whichever way you turn, you pay an arm and a leg just getting to Latin America. I can't believe that airline costs to Latin America can possibly be so much higher than costs at other profitable destinations as to justify the fares charged. I think that a modest service initially with perhaps 800-1000 seats a week might stimulate a market in both directions that would force prices to the continent down, and still allow airlines to make good money. The airline could start with 3x 77W services and then switch to 4x 789 services when it is able to fly them across.

Another scenario is that NZ is very successful in attracting the Brazilian middle and business classes to NZ and Australia, and finds it possible to charge them the same outrageous fares to Latin America as the current incumbents do and make really fat profits on the route. Oh well, if no benefit as a traveller, then at least as a small shareholder . . .

[Edited 2013-08-08 06:34:51]


This is not my beautiful house . . . This is not my beautiful wife
User currently offlineaerokiwi From New Zealand, joined Jul 2000, 2683 posts, RR: 4
Reply 33, posted (11 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 16730 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 16):
Their population is 20 times larger, and there are not that many more Chinese visitors than Poms, so by definition Chinese people are 20 times less likely to visit NZ than British people. They just outnumber them.

Uh, comparative GDP per capita should put paid to this little hobby horse. I can't be bothered working it out, but the UK's is more - substantially so. But care of the sheer size of China and its growth trajectory, it's reasonable to forecast the latter accounting for a ton more visitors than the UK fairly soon. And they spend more. Go figure.

Quoting koruman (Reply 16):
The two attractions which will get Brazilian leisure travellers to fly Air NZ are Sydney and the Great Barrier Reef.

And New Zealand's more accessible visa programme. Australia's still lagging on that.

Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 32):
I'm constantly surprised how many young Brazilians that I hear on the streets of central Auckland, where I live.

Great isn't it? Our more flexible and accessible visas are a big part of that. Lucky for us.


User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7119 posts, RR: 3
Reply 34, posted (11 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 16619 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 16):
The two attractions which will get Brazilian leisure travellers to fly Air NZ are Sydney and the Great Barrier Reef.

I get the Great Barrier Reef, but Sydney, it's no more interesting than Auckland, just bigger with worse traffic.


User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 35, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 16541 times:

Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 32):
Time may tell on this. But I don't think we're talking "mass market" tourism anyway

In many ways I agree.

But students and gap year travellers are always a bit more experimental in their tastes than the passengers who are leisure gold, which is the demographic "30-60 years, annual income > $100,000".

Although I'm an economic migrant to Australia I choose to live in neither Sydney nor Cairns. But without any disrespect to New Zealand's attractions, I'd state categorically that the big two attractions in this end of the world for South Americans are the Great Barrier Reef and Sydney.

I agree that Auckland can be the funnel through which to deliver them. And as I wrote earlier, New Zealand (the country) could get 1/3 of their stay if Air New Zealand marketed New Zealand as part of a designed itinerary en route between Australia and Bora Bora for affluent Brazilians.

But as a standalone destination, New Zealand simply has no hope of attracting Brazilians. The bottom line is that with the exception of Maori culture and civilisation, every landscape that New Zealand can offer is inferior in its grandeur to its South American equivalent.

If they want a winter holiday, they will either chase the sun in Florida or ski in Chile and Argentina.

If they want a lakeside holiday in the mountains, they can go to Chile.

If they want a Swiss-style ski holiday, Bariloche in Argentina pulverises anything available in New Zealand. The lake / mountain / village combo makes Queenstown look rather ordinary.

And if they want a Taupo style experience, they can go to Colonia in Uruguay and stay in the nearby lodges and resorts.

So, yes, I do think that Air New Zealand could make South America work. But there would need to be universal acceptance - especially by the tourist authorities - that New Zealand would only get Brazilian holidaymakers for a few days in transit between Australia and the Pacific islands. Any attempt to promote single-centre NZ-only itineraries would be a disaster.


User currently offlinebrucek From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 257 posts, RR: 0
Reply 36, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 16533 times:

A bit OT from the current discussion, but regarding NZ aviation:

I just made a reservation to fly on NZ from SFO to AKL next January, and noted that the aircraft was a B744. I thought that these had all gone from the NZ fleet, but not so? On several recent visits to SFO I have seen a B777 from NZ.

Is the B744 for the summer traffic to New Zealand, and a possible greater upload of pax?

Thanks, Bruce.


User currently onlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6406 posts, RR: 39
Reply 37, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 16561 times:

Quoting brucek (Reply 36):

I just made a reservation to fly on NZ from SFO to AKL next January, and noted that the aircraft was a B744. I thought that these had all gone from the NZ fleet, but not so? On several recent visits to SFO I have seen a B777 from NZ.

Is the B744 for the summer traffic to New Zealand, and a possible greater upload of pax?

NZ has 2 744s remaining. They are scheduled to be phased out when the 2 extra 77Ws on order are received; which will subsequently be placed on AKL-SFO; at least that was the plan. The 744 is operating AKL-SFO on the majority of days right now as well.



It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 38, posted (11 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 16543 times:

Quoting brucek (Reply 36):
I just made a reservation to fly on NZ from SFO to AKL next January, and noted that the aircraft was a B744. I thought that these had all gone from the NZ fleet, but not so? On several recent visits to SFO I have seen a B777 from NZ.

I've got a flight across the Tasman on a 744 from BNE to AKL in December.

I'm down to sit in 3A in the nose downstairs - the old First Class cabin - but I'm sorely tempted to sit upstairs instead, even though I'd have to give up my rolling carry-on luggage.

I might never get the chance again.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25004 posts, RR: 85
Reply 39, posted (11 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 16511 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Interesting new - online - safety video for the Chinese market - "Romance":

http://tvnz.co.nz/travel-news/air-nz...e-class-takes-off-in-china-5529504

"Air NZ's 'romance class' takes off in China"

I think the clip in the link is not the full video, but it gives a good idea.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently onlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6406 posts, RR: 39
Reply 40, posted (11 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 16504 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 39):

Here's the full version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdQYdCuF7HQ


While I'm at it, I read in the caption about "Romance Class coming during the period around Valentines Day on AKL-PVG".... A sign of the first 772 fitted with the skycouch? Surely not a couple of 77W flights just to promote 'Romance Class'??

[Edited 2013-08-08 17:30:57]


It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25004 posts, RR: 85
Reply 41, posted (11 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 16486 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 40):
Here's the full version:

Thanks for posting that.

I think it's a good idea - the oxygen mask sequence is a bit of a fun stretch (what else would you do?), but I like it.

mariner

[Edited 2013-08-08 17:33:57]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinexiaotung From New Zealand, joined Jan 2006, 824 posts, RR: 0
Reply 42, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 16408 times:

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 40):

While I'm at it, I read in the caption about "Romance Class coming during the period around Valentines Day on AKL-PVG".... A sign of the first 772 fitted with the skycouch? Surely not a couple of 77W flights just to promote 'Romance Class'??

The Chinese "Valentine's" is actually 13 Aug this year. I think this date is more likely what they are targeting.


User currently onlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6406 posts, RR: 39
Reply 43, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 16410 times:

Quoting xiaotung (Reply 42):

The Chinese "Valentine's" is actually 13 Aug this year. I think this date is more likely what they are targeting.

So I wonder what this "Romance Class" thing is all about..



It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently offlinePA515 From New Zealand, joined Nov 2007, 868 posts, RR: 0
Reply 44, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 16303 times:

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 37):
NZ has 2 744s remaining. They are scheduled to be phased out when the 2 extra 77Ws on order are received; which will subsequently be placed on AKL-SFO; at least that was the plan. The 744 is operating AKL-SFO on the majority of days right now as well.

The first of the two extra 77W's gives NZ8/NZ7 AKL-SFO-AKL a Thu and Sat 77W from 17 July 2014, with a Wed, Fri and Sun 744 and a Mon and Tue 77E. From 01 July 2014, NZ6/NZ5 AKL-LAX-AKL goes to daily 77W, instead of a daily except Tue 77W and Tue 77E.

The second 77W due in September will probably go into service in October with AKL-SFO-AKL a daily except Tue 77W with either no Tue flight or a Tue 77E.

PA515

[Edited 2013-08-08 23:56:18]

User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7119 posts, RR: 3
Reply 45, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 16179 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 35):
In many ways I agree.

But students and gap year travellers are always a bit more experimental in their tastes than the passengers who are leisure gold, which is the demographic "30-60 years, annual income > $100,000".

Although I'm an economic migrant to Australia I choose to live in neither Sydney nor Cairns. But without any disrespect to New Zealand's attractions, I'd state categorically that the big two attractions in this end of the world for South Americans are the Great Barrier Reef and Sydney.

I agree that Auckland can be the funnel through which to deliver them. And as I wrote earlier, New Zealand (the country) could get 1/3 of their stay if Air New Zealand marketed New Zealand as part of a designed itinerary en route between Australia and Bora Bora for affluent Brazilians.

But as a standalone destination, New Zealand simply has no hope of attracting Brazilians. The bottom line is that with the exception of Maori culture and civilisation, every landscape that New Zealand can offer is inferior in its grandeur to its South American equivalent.

If they want a winter holiday, they will either chase the sun in Florida or ski in Chile and Argentina.

If they want a lakeside holiday in the mountains, they can go to Chile.

If they want a Swiss-style ski holiday, Bariloche in Argentina pulverises anything available in New Zealand. The lake / mountain / village combo makes Queenstown look rather ordinary.

And if they want a Taupo style experience, they can go to Colonia in Uruguay and stay in the nearby lodges and resorts.

So, yes, I do think that Air New Zealand could make South America work. But there would need to be universal acceptance - especially by the tourist authorities - that New Zealand would only get Brazilian holidaymakers for a few days in transit between Australia and the Pacific islands. Any attempt to promote single-centre NZ-only itineraries would be a disaster.

As always you are selling NZ short, I guess that comes from being English.

Whenever I end up meeting people who have been to NZ and Australia I'd say it 50/50 (with a lean towards NZ) on which country they enjoyed the most, NZ's advantage is that you can see so much more of the country in a given period of time than you can of Australia. I was taking to a Brazilian family who where heading to NZ 4 weeks ago, they were on the SFO AKL flight, they were going to NZ because of LOTR and The Hobbit, the dad had two weeks in NZ planned and was going to see as much of the film locations as possible.


User currently offlinegasman From New Zealand, joined Mar 2004, 859 posts, RR: 0
Reply 46, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 16069 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 45):
Whenever I end up meeting people who have been to NZ and Australia I'd say it 50/50

I basically agree, although I would put it 60:40 in NZ's favour.

But Australia has done a hugely successful job of marketing itself in the Northern hemisphere. The image is of wall to wall sunshine, colour, natural beauty and a certain savvy down-under hip-cool vibe. It sucks the North Americans in like there's no tomorrow.

The ones that make the trip are often disappointed of course - when they discover that Australia's cities are somewhat less cosmopolitan and interesting than their own, and the rest of the place is basically a dust-bowl. But that doesn't matter - the tourist $ is still captured.


User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 47, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 16036 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 45):
As always you are selling NZ short, I guess that comes from being English.

Maybe.

There are countless reasons why I personally prefer to holiday in New Zealand ahead of places in South America with similar landscapes.

Familiarity. Language. Safety from petty crime. Reliable standards of everything from roads to hotels to restaurants to hygiene. And nice-enough scenery: a 1,187m mountain looks big enough if you're not used to 3,000m at Ski Portillo in Chile.

I know that if I'm sensible I won't be robbed, won't get diarrhoea, will be able to make myself understood, won't be ripped off by someone as a "gullible foreigner".

Unfortunately, very few of those factors weigh strongly on a couple of Sao Paulo lawyers planning their next holiday. It's New Zealand which is far away and speaks a hard-to-comprehend language.

But Air New Zealand is perfectly placed to use its Auckland hub to distribute South American guests all across Australia and New Zealand.


User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7119 posts, RR: 3
Reply 48, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 16009 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 47):

Unfortunately, very few of those factors weigh strongly on a couple of Sao Paulo lawyers planning their next holiday. It's New Zealand which is far away and speaks a hard-to-comprehend language.

But Air New Zealand is perfectly placed to use its Auckland hub to distribute South American guests all across Australia and New Zealand.

And yet you suggest that a couple of Sao Paulo lawyers would prefer to go to Australia which is even further away, still speaks a hard to comprehend language and doesn't offer anything more (I would strongly suggest less) than what they could do on a trip to NZ.


User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 49, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 15963 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 48):
And yet you suggest that a couple of Sao Paulo lawyers would prefer to go to Australia which is even further away, still speaks a hard to comprehend language and doesn't offer anything more (I would strongly suggest less) than what they could do on a trip to NZ.

Fair points!

But my argument is really that the "lakes, mountains, fjords, glaciers" pitch cannot possibly work in a market which has bigger, taller, wider versions on its doorstep.

Sydney, like it or hate it (both apply to my views of it) is a major world city, and its harbour, Opera House and beaches probably mean that it is in the New York / London / Paris / Rio category of the most desired five cities on earth to visit, and probably a little bit ahead of Rome, Cape Town et al.

I know that I rub you up the wrong way sometimes when I mention NZ's limitations and when I elevate Maori culture to an importance you deny. But I'm genuinely not trying to provoke in this case, I'm just advocating a cold, hard appraisal of the situation.

My cousin lives in Aberdeen in Scotland. He goes to Aviemore in the nearby Highlands to ski, at the dizzying altitude of 228 metres. You don't see too many Austrians or Swiss people going to Aviemore for their holidays.

And I think that New Zealand has very limited scope to sell its scenery to people who have similar but grander landscapes much closer to home, where people speak a language they can get by in.


User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7119 posts, RR: 3
Reply 50, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 15850 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 49):
But my argument is really that the "lakes, mountains, fjords, glaciers" pitch cannot possibly work in a market which has bigger, taller, wider versions on its doorstep.

Our ones are more accessible with I'm pretty sure more facilities in an exotic location, if you live in South America, South America isn't exotic, NZ is. I live on a pretty impressive fiord in Norway and am fairly close to Geiranger Fjord but I think Milford Sound is far more impressive.

Quoting koruman (Reply 49):
Sydney, like it or hate it (both apply to my views of it) is a major world city, and its harbour, Opera House and beaches probably mean that it is in the New York / London / Paris / Rio category of the most desired five cities on earth to visit, and probably a little bit ahead of Rome, Cape Town et al.

Then why is Auckland consistently rated as a more desirable city to live in? As for world cities I think there are only two, London and New York, the rest are greater or lesser regional cities. I consider the Waitemata as a better harbour than Sydney Harbour, the Hauraki Gulf tops it off and makes it a boaties paradise whereas Sydney has nothing to offer once you pass the Heads, the beaches are similar, I will concede the Opera House is an iconic building which Auckland has nothing to match. But then who goes to Sydney or any new world city to look at buildings?

Quoting koruman (Reply 49):
My cousin lives in Aberdeen in Scotland. He goes to Aviemore in the nearby Highlands to ski, at the dizzying altitude of 228 metres. You don't see too many Austrians or Swiss people going to Aviemore for their holidays.

I quite like Aberdeen and will be there in a couple of weeks, I've never skied in Scotland. I ski on a mountain which is 407 metres high, it's only 15 minutes from home. Austrians and Swiss go to North America and yes even New Zealand to ski.


User currently offlinebrucek From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 257 posts, RR: 0
Reply 51, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 15742 times:

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 37):
NZ has 2 744s remaining. They are scheduled to be phased out when the 2 extra 77Ws on order are received; which will subsequently be placed on AKL-SFO; at least that was the plan. The 744 is operating AKL-SFO on the majority of days right now as well
Quoting koruman (Reply 38):

I've got a flight across the Tasman on a 744 from BNE to AKL in December.

I'm down to sit in 3A in the nose downstairs - the old First Class cabin - but I'm sorely tempted to sit upstairs instead, even though I'd have to give up my rolling carry-on luggage.

I might never get the chance again.
Quoting NZ107 (Reply 43):
The second 77W due in September will probably go into service in October with AKL-SFO-AKL a daily except Tue 77W with either no Tue flight or a Tue 77E.




Thanks everyone for yourt replies. Always good to get back to New Zealand, my country of birth, I've been away now for 35 years!

Bruce.


User currently offlinemotorhussy From New Zealand, joined Mar 2000, 3135 posts, RR: 9
Reply 52, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 15796 times:

Re: the whole South America debate.

I believe NZ could do a really good job on this. There are four opportunities for them as I see it.
1/ AKL as the the conduit between LatAm and East Asia (north and south)
2/ AKL as easy transit point into many Australian cities and vice versa
3/ Latin American travellers to New Zealand
4/ New Zealand travellers to Latin America

So they have quite a bit of scope. It is however quite a job to coordinate but fortune favours the brave (and the hard working). But the big opportunity for New Zealand as a country is number three, so this is where JV Govt funding could potentially come in to play for NZ.

Now with regard to Koruman's argument of 'why would they want to visit when they've got the same back home?'. Well let's take the inverse of that; why do Kiwis want to visit South America? Lots of us do and for a variety of reasons but I suspect that the ones Koruman's describes, with the very pedestrian aspirations, will not be the ones to reach our shores. Fortunately they are a more diverse bunch than that.

Lots of Brazilians on the streets of Wellington too and a noticeable amount of Spanish speakers as well. They're mostly young, affluent, qualified and positive from what I can glean.



come visit the south pacific
User currently offlinegasman From New Zealand, joined Mar 2004, 859 posts, RR: 0
Reply 53, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 15756 times:

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 52):
Lots of Brazilians on the streets of Wellington

We're talking about "people who come from Brazil" here, right?


User currently offlinenascarnut From New Zealand, joined Oct 2008, 276 posts, RR: 2
Reply 54, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 15752 times:

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 52):
2/ AKL as easy transit point into many Australian cities and vice versa

NZ could develop the South America feed the same way they have from North America
NZ's SFO/YVR/LAX flights are all timed with AUST connections in mind.
Some research would reveal that Australians support NZ very well on the SFO and YVR segments in particular.
If they developed South America the same way, NZ would be forced to put the larger aircraft back onto the Trans-tas market. This would keep the businessmen happy with 777/77W operating AKL-MEL/BNE/SYD early morning while the Seats to Suit flights could focus on the midday services.


User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 55, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 15731 times:

I'm not arguing against a GRU service.

I certainly would argue against Santiago or Buenos Aires, but São Paulo could be fine.

But with a custom designed, off the peg option in 3-5 star versions, offering:

Sydney 3 days
Great Barrier Reef 3 days
Rotorua/Taupo 3 days
Queenstown 4 days
Bora Bora 5 days.

If that was aggressively marketed in precisely that format it could gain traction in São Paulo, Rio, Belo Horizonte and Porto Alegre.

But leave it as an "introducing direct flights to Auckland" campaign and you won't fill a Twin Otter.


User currently offlinezkncj From New Zealand, joined Nov 2005, 490 posts, RR: 0
Reply 56, posted (11 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 15674 times:

Quoting nascarnut (Reply 54):
This would keep the businessmen happy with 777/77W operating AKL-MEL/BNE/SYD early morning while the Seats to Suit flights could focus on the midday services.

Um but ex-AKL SYD/MEL/BNE already get large amount of widebodys from AKL.

Take a Monday for example (2/9/13)

AKL-SYD
NZ101 - 744
NZ7901 - 738 (VA)
NZ703 - A320
NZ105 - 744
NZ709 - A320

AKL-MEL
NZ7939 - 738 (VA)
NZ123 - 77W
NZ725 - A320


User currently offlinenz2 From New Zealand, joined Aug 2007, 213 posts, RR: 0
Reply 57, posted (11 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 15628 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 35):
And if they want a Taupo style experience, they can go to Colonia in Uruguay and stay in the nearby lodges and resorts



Have you been to Colonia? I was there last year and Taupo definately did not spring to mind!

Quoting koruman (Reply 38):
I'm down to sit in 3A in the nose downstairs - the old First Class cabin - but I'm sorely tempted to sit upstairs instead, even though I'd have to give up my rolling carry-on luggage.



I got a 744 to AKL/SYD recently as a late sub, sat upstairs which as you say could well be the last time. Your roll away will fit in the OH bins or quite possibly the side lockers


User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12082 posts, RR: 18
Reply 58, posted (11 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 15507 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting nz2 (Reply 57):
Quoting koruman (Reply 38):I'm down to sit in 3A in the nose downstairs - the old First Class cabin - but I'm sorely tempted to sit upstairs instead, even though I'd have to give up my rolling carry-on luggage. I got a 744 to AKL/SYD recently as a late sub, sat upstairs which as you say could well be the last time. Your roll away will fit in the OH bins or quite possibly the side lockers

My large roll on bag has always had a perfect fit in the B744 side lockers both downstairs and upstairs - even with the expandable front part fully open


User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 59, posted (11 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 15494 times:

Quoting nz2 (Reply 57):
Have you been to Colonia? I was there last year and Taupo definately did not spring to mind!

Yes, and it's why I think the idea of South Americans visiting Taupo or Queenstown in significant numbers as a primary destination is delusional.

Colonia, as you know, is a short ferry across the River Plate from Buenos Aires and is a town of 26,000 which is a UNESCO World Heritage site due to its historic quarter with cobblestoned streets, churches, city gate, drawbridge, bullring etc. OK, not much like Taupo.

But just up the road is the riverfront town of Carmelo, where the Four Seasons resort is like a vastly superior version of Huka Lodge, with all the Argentine and Brazilian TV channels. It's an extraordinary base for golf, tennis, fishing etc.

You can even continue a little further up the river to the town of Fray Bentos, with a museum where the subject matter is pretty obvious from the name.

That's why I made the comparison of Queenstown and Taupo to Aviemore. They are lovely if you are in the vicinity, but they are a very, very, very pale shadow of Bariloche, Carmelo or Colonia.

Queenstown in particular is at a massive disadvantage compared with Bariloche: less snow, mountains 1/3 the size, barely any Alpine buildings, no Gothic cathedral, no chocolate industry. The only advantage it has is the lack of Nazis, but they are probably all dead now anyway.

New Zealand would never market itself in China as the home of Chinese food and culture. And it better hadn't try to market itself in South America as a standalone destination for the great outdoors, unless it is planning on configuring 787s with twenty seats or fewer.

(Kiwirob, even just look up Bariloche or Colonia on a site like Wikipedia. You will see the difficulty of the task facing Queenstown or Taupo to try to compete).

[Edited 2013-08-10 00:35:32]

User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12082 posts, RR: 18
Reply 60, posted (11 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 15404 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Was reading the QF media release on NZ/EK New Zealand ops and I must admit, I was expecting news of a new destination so disappointed about nothing new. QF are saying one thing about weekly numbers while EK are saying something else

http://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/med...mirates-partnership-in-new-zealand


User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12082 posts, RR: 18
Reply 61, posted (11 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 15050 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Does anyone know why an A340 got a water cannon salute a few days ago while leaving AKL? I've seen a photo of an A340 but can't tell what airline due to the water/mist

[Edited 2013-08-10 17:55:45]

User currently offlinezkncj From New Zealand, joined Nov 2005, 490 posts, RR: 0
Reply 62, posted (11 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 14998 times:

Quoting 777ER (Reply 61):
Does anyone know why an A340 got a water cannon salute a few days ago while leaving AKL? I've seen a photo of an A340 but can't tell what airline due to the water/mist

Happened again today, with LAN departing AKL. I have heard its apparently for the captains last journeys working on A340


User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7155 posts, RR: 13
Reply 63, posted (11 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 14935 times:

Quoting 777ER (Reply 61):
Does anyone know why an A340 got a water cannon salute a few days ago while leaving AKL? I've seen a photo of an A340 but can't tell what airline due to the water/mist

probably a return to lease of the nxt LA 343 to SIN.


User currently offlineZKOJH From China, joined Sep 2004, 1659 posts, RR: 1
Reply 64, posted (11 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 14903 times:

Another airline heading for AKL - ''Air Nuigini'

''Papua New Guinea’s national flag carrier, Air Niugini, has announced that it will soon introduce new flights to Fiji and Auckland.
The announcement from board chairman, Garth McIllwain came just after Air Nuigini made its maiden flight to the Indonesian resort island of Bali.''

Maybe a route for their solo 787 ? they have on order which arrives in 2014..



NZ 787-9 flying between PVG - AKL ! CAN'T WAIT!!
User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7155 posts, RR: 13
Reply 65, posted (11 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 14671 times:

Quoting ZKOJH (Reply 64):
Maybe a route for their solo 787 ? they have on order which arrives in 2014..

I guess, but really a 737-X or E190 via BNE would be more appropriate


User currently offlinejamie86 From New Zealand, joined Sep 2007, 95 posts, RR: 0
Reply 66, posted (11 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 14676 times:

Does anyone know what the Qatar a320 is doing in Akl?
I saw it today parked over by gate 16. Seems like its a long way from home, and to smaller plane for a charter from the Middle East.



JAMIE
User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7155 posts, RR: 13
Reply 67, posted (11 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 14661 times:

Quoting jamie86 (Reply 66):
Does anyone know what the Qatar a320 is doing in Akl?
I saw it today parked over by gate 16. Seems like its a long way from home, and to smaller plane for a charter from the Middle East.

Royal Family Visit I think is most likely.


User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12082 posts, RR: 18
Reply 68, posted (11 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 14566 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting ZKOJH (Reply 64):

Will be nice to this airline in AKL if true! Their new B767 interior (especially J) looks nice. The airlines 737 fleet is also getting the same treatment (including lie flat J seats) later this year

Air Niugini New Business Class & Flights To AKL (by QF175 Aug 10 2013 in Civil Aviation) Link contains a link to a news site's news announcement


User currently offlinezkncj From New Zealand, joined Nov 2005, 490 posts, RR: 0
Reply 69, posted (11 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 14509 times:

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 65):
E190 via BNE would be more appropriate

E190 on AKL-BNE would be worth it, just for the ability to get on a E190 ex AKL


User currently onlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6406 posts, RR: 39
Reply 70, posted (11 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 14441 times:

Quoting jamie86 (Reply 66):
Does anyone know what the Qatar a320 is doing in Akl?
I saw it today parked over by gate 16. Seems like its a long way from home, and to smaller plane for a charter from the Middle East.

Qatar Amiri flight, flew in on Saturday from MEL via ROT. Interesting to see that they're in/around Rotorua.. Huka Lodge possibly?



It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently offlinemotorhussy From New Zealand, joined Mar 2000, 3135 posts, RR: 9
Reply 71, posted (11 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 14440 times:

Quoting zkncj (Reply 69):
Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 65):
E190 via BNE would be more appropriate

E190 on AKL-BNE would be worth it, just for the ability to get on a E190 ex AKL

Does the E-190 have the capability to fly PMO-AKL and AKL-PMO in a commercially viable way?



come visit the south pacific
User currently onlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6406 posts, RR: 39
Reply 72, posted (11 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 14436 times:

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 71):

Does the E-190 have the capability to fly PMO-AKL and AKL-PMO in a commercially viable way?

I'm not sure if any plane has the capability of doing NZ-Italy flights in a commercially viable way  

Though for AKL-PMR, I doubt it - the AT7 does a very good job I'm sure. I'm not convinced anymore that such a route (and other similar ones - AKL-NPE) really need E-Jets.



It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently offlinesunrisevalley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 4859 posts, RR: 5
Reply 73, posted (11 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 14321 times:

Quoting zkncj (Reply 69):
E190 on AKL-BNE would be worth it, just for the ability to get on a E190 ex AKL

recently flew FRA-TRN on a LH E190. I was a nice ride, quite comfortable, the two aside seating is attractive in my view.


User currently offlineVirginFlyer From New Zealand, joined Sep 2000, 4537 posts, RR: 41
Reply 74, posted (11 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 14295 times:

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 72):
Quoting motorhussy (Reply 71):

Does the E-190 have the capability to fly PMO-AKL and AKL-PMO in a commercially viable way?

I'm not sure if any plane has the capability of doing NZ-Italy flights in a commercially viable way

Though for AKL-PMR, I doubt it - the AT7 does a very good job I'm sure. I'm not convinced anymore that such a route (and other similar ones - AKL-NPE) really need E-Jets.

I suspect you'll find Motorhussy meant POM - Port Moresby and was talking with regard to Air Niugini. AKL-POM is quite a flight - great circle distance is 2228nm (compare that with 1954nm AKL-CNS which I think must be one of the longer A320 flights NZ operates), so I doubt we'd see an E-Jet able to manage that with any meaningul payload.

V/F



"So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth." - Bahá'u'lláh
User currently offlinesunrisevalley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 4859 posts, RR: 5
Reply 75, posted (11 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 14241 times:

The AKL

Quoting VirginFlyer (Reply 74):
I suspect you'll find Motorhussy meant POM - Port Moresby and was talking with regard to Air Niugini. AKL-POM is quite a flight - great circle distance is 2228nm (compare that with 1954nm AKL-CNS which I think must be one of the longer A320 flights NZ operates), so I doubt we'd see an E-Jet able to manage that with any meaningul payload.

The AKL-CNS time table time is 6hr 40min which would proportionally make AKL-POM about 7hr 40m. This is an ESAD of about 3400 or so nm. Well above the still air range for an E190 of 2400nm.


User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7155 posts, RR: 13
Reply 76, posted (11 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 14196 times:

Quoting VirginFlyer (Reply 74):
AKL-POM is quite a flight - great circle distance is 2228n

very similar to LAX-BOS at 2269nm or LAX-PTY which is 2616nm. Both routes operated by the 737-800. The reference I made earlier to E190s being used was more in terms of the kind of capacity that might be warranted for POM-AKL-POM. I think the 763 will be for SYD,BNE, HKG,SIN. Maybe AKL will see the 757 once again...

They could pick up Auckland originated filipino traffic as they fly to both MNL & CEB.... I'd gladly use them to fly back from Philippines if their fares reasonable, maybe even stopping a few days to look around POM


User currently offlinekiwiinoz From New Zealand, joined Oct 2005, 2165 posts, RR: 5
Reply 77, posted (11 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 14228 times:

Big step for Martin Jetpacks this morning.....:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/n...ticle.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10911448

.....with approval to conduct a manned flight.

I am actually an investor in this company:

http://martinjetpack.com/

Whilst I am fairly circumspect, but hopeful about the long term prospects, I dont miss the opportunity to shamelessly tell anyone who is listening that I own a jetpack company. It's a lot cooler than real estate!


User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12082 posts, RR: 18
Reply 78, posted (11 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 13851 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting zkncj (Reply 69):

Just a pity the DJ E170/190 PacBlue ops here didn't happen! Would have been interesting to see if DJ could have keeped its HLZ service or if the Ejets could have been used to increase other services like domestic with E190s

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 73):

Fully agree! Had my first Ejet flight on UA in 2006 and really enjoyed it! Since then I've also been on ACs 190s and USs 175s. One of the routes I fly in the USA is operated by UA E170s and always try and book that service if possible. Big jet feel on a small jet


User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7155 posts, RR: 13
Reply 79, posted (11 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 13823 times:

Quoting 777ER (Reply 78):
. Big jet feel on a small jet

I flew TACA E190 in Business Class earlier this year. It felt like a corporate jet. 3 abreast, cream leather... I'm a big fan of E-Jets down the back too. Give an E-Jet over a 737 or A32x any day.. I just wish they had longhaul range...


User currently offlinezkojq From New Zealand, joined Sep 2011, 1140 posts, RR: 1
Reply 80, posted (11 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 13818 times:

Interesting to see that the PM wants to change the flag to the Silver Fern. I wonder if this has anything to do with the Air New Zealand's addition of the Silver Fern - given that he is minister of tourism.

Quoting haggis73 (Reply 31):
Belongs to North South Airlines of Manila, N821MW. Currently up for sale I'm led to believe. Departing tomorrow morning for Australia via NLK.

Yes thats the one, thanks. Your wisdom is appreciated as always. Pity we don't get more aircraft like that around here.

Quoting ZKOJH (Reply 29):

I note this bit:

Quote:
If a greater number of pilots left, then the air force would consider poaching pilots from other militaries

Earlier in the year, members of the Australian Navy had to be brought in to crewing one of the RNZN's vessels - due to too many New Zealanders leaving for Oz. So now it looks like we might have be having aussies crewing our military's aircraft also.  Wow!



Someone repaint ZK-PBG!
User currently offlineKaiarahi From Canada, joined Jul 2009, 2950 posts, RR: 28
Reply 81, posted (11 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 13814 times:

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 79):

They're a big favourite with many AC pax too. Early on, there were some cold-start issues (Canada-cold, -30C) that were resolved with a chip tweak. One cold weather quirk remains - after a cold overnight, before TO on the first flight they line up and do an engine run-up to ensure there's no residual ice on the turbine blades. Doing a run-up feels a bit like NAC DC-3 days.



Note à moi-même - il faut respecter les cons.
User currently offlineIADCA From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 1256 posts, RR: 8
Reply 82, posted (11 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 13792 times:

Quoting gasman (Reply 46):
But Australia has done a hugely successful job of marketing itself in the Northern hemisphere. The image is of wall to wall sunshine, colour, natural beauty and a certain savvy down-under hip-cool vibe. It sucks the North Americans in like there's no tomorrow.

Absolutely. Even the Aussie embassy in DC puts up a lights display at Christmastime of Santa surfing. NZ could easily do a sunshine marketing campaign, but they stick a little too closely to LotR.

Quoting koruman (Reply 49):
But my argument is really that the "lakes, mountains, fjords, glaciers" pitch cannot possibly work in a market which has bigger, taller, wider versions on its doorstep.

Most everywhere has these things closer than New Zealand. There are a lot of North American tourists in NZ as well, despite the existence of Alaska and all the places in South America.

Quoting koruman (Reply 59):
Queenstown in particular is at a massive disadvantage compared with Bariloche: less snow, mountains 1/3 the size, barely any Alpine buildings, no Gothic cathedral, no chocolate industry. The only advantage it has is the lack of Nazis, but they are probably all dead now anyway.

Don't know anything about Bariloche, but Queenstown's not just a winter/ski destination. I was there in March/April and it was a ton of fun in terms of adventure sports and a base camp for all the walking tracks at that end of the South Island.


User currently offlinemotorhussy From New Zealand, joined Mar 2000, 3135 posts, RR: 9
Reply 83, posted (11 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 13779 times:

Quoting VirginFlyer (Reply 74):
I suspect you'll find Motorhussy meant POM - Port Moresby and was talking with regard to Air Niugini.

Thanks, yes I was.

Quoting VirginFlyer (Reply 74):
AKL-POM is quite a flight - great circle distance is 2228nm (compare that with 1954nm AKL-CNS which I think must be one of the longer A320 flights NZ operates), so I doubt we'd see an E-Jet able to manage that with any meaningul payload.

So if we're to see PX to AKL, it'll possibly be a direct flight POM-AKL with a 763 but more likely a POM-CNS-AKL flight with the 737-700.

Quoting zkojq (Reply 80):
Interesting to see that the PM wants to change the flag to the Silver Fern. I wonder if this has anything to do with the Air New Zealand's addition of the Silver Fern - given that he is minister of tourism.

That man should learn to breathe through his nose a little more often.



come visit the south pacific
User currently onlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6406 posts, RR: 39
Reply 84, posted (11 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 13664 times:

Quoting IADCA (Reply 82):
Don't know anything about Bariloche, but Queenstown's not just a winter/ski destination. I was there in March/April

Just like how skiing in the Rockies probably wouldn't be too fun in September  



It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently offlineUnclekoru From New Zealand, joined Oct 2009, 297 posts, RR: 0
Reply 85, posted (11 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 13653 times:

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 83):
So if we're to see PX to AKL, it'll possibly be a direct flight POM-AKL with a 763 but more likely a POM-CNS-AKL flight with the 737-700.

I saw a PX 737-700 in Wellington last week as we passed through. Heard it on delivery requesting airways for Port Moresby.



It sounds like english, but I can't understand a word you're saying
User currently offlinehaggis73 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2010, 112 posts, RR: 0
Reply 86, posted (11 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 13601 times:

Quoting Unclekoru (Reply 86):
I saw a PX 737-700 in Wellington last week as we passed through.

Part of the PNG Prime Ministers visit to NZ. DF900EX P2-ANW was also in WLG & AKL last week.

http://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/p...welcomes-visit-papua-new-guinea-pm


User currently offlineVirginFlyer From New Zealand, joined Sep 2000, 4537 posts, RR: 41
Reply 87, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 13280 times:

Quoting haggis73 (Reply 31):
Quoting zkojq (Reply 30):
Does anyone know the identity of the Dornier 328 Jet that was parked outside the Air National hangar on Saturday night?

Belongs to North South Airlines of Manila, N821MW. Currently up for sale I'm led to believe. Departing tomorrow morning for Australia via NLK.

I meant to say I saw it depart on Friday as I was dropping a friend off at the airport - I think she was wondering why I was looking up to the sky rather than concentrating on driving! It took me a few moments to work out what I was looking at (thankfully I had read this thread the previous evening!) Nice looking piece of equipment.

Quoting IADCA (Reply 82):
Don't know anything about Bariloche, but Queenstown's not just a winter/ski destination. I was there in March/April and it was a ton of fun in terms of adventure sports and a base camp for all the walking tracks at that end of the South Island.

Peak tourist season for Queenstown is the summer months isn't it?

V/F



"So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth." - Bahá'u'lláh
User currently onlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6406 posts, RR: 39
Reply 88, posted (11 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 12961 times:

http://www.voxy.co.nz/business/auckl...terminal-upgrade-underway/5/164436

A waste of money which would be better off going towards the new terminal. But alas, a regional lounge in AKL. No idea where they'll find the space for this.



It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently offlineAndrensn From New Zealand, joined Jun 2012, 70 posts, RR: 0
Reply 89, posted (11 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 12942 times:

Qantas launches new AKL-PER service
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/n...ticle.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10912349

Operated by a330 aircraft twice weekly over December and January


User currently onlinezkeye From New Zealand, joined May 2005, 241 posts, RR: 2
Reply 90, posted (11 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 12785 times:

Hi all,

I am on NZ2 on Saturday night. Can anyone tell me if this is a 777-200 or 300? I am trying to work out if I have good or shit seats.

Thanks in advance.



Bring out the gimp
User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 91, posted (11 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 12800 times:

Quoting zkeye (Reply 91):

Hi all,

I am on NZ2 on Saturday night. Can anyone tell me if this is a 777-200 or 300? I am trying to work out if I have good or shit seats.

It's always a 777-300ER nowadays.

If you're in Business Premier, great.

If you're in Premium Economy, it will be nice while you're awake.

If you're in Economy, ouch.


User currently onlinezkeye From New Zealand, joined May 2005, 241 posts, RR: 2
Reply 92, posted (11 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 12761 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 92):
If you're in Economy, ouch.

Economy but if it is a 300 we at least get sky couch.

Thanks for the response.



Bring out the gimp
User currently offlineazzazzazza From New Zealand, joined Jan 2011, 29 posts, RR: 0
Reply 93, posted (11 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 12762 times:

Quoting Andrensn (Reply 90):
Qantas launches new AKL-PER service
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/n...ticle.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10912349

Operated by a330 aircraft twice weekly over December and January

Those are funny looking A330's in that article's image.... Aviation news reporting at it's finest once again   Good news though, always good to see new aircraft at AKL.


User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7119 posts, RR: 3
Reply 94, posted (11 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 12757 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 92):
If you're in Economy, ouch.

I flew on the 77W from AKL to LAX last month in economy, I didn't really notice the very slight reduction in seat width over the 744 we flew from SFO to AKL two weeks prior. It certainly felt like I had more room than the SK A340 we flew to SFO in.

That said my roll on got caught a couple of times when rolling down the isle to my seeat, something which didn't happen on the 744 or A340.


User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7155 posts, RR: 13
Reply 95, posted (11 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 12567 times:

Quoting zkeye (Reply 93):
Economy but if it is a 300 we at least get sky couch.

If you book it yes, if not then not necessarily so. There are only 26 in total. Unless you have the couch set up as a couch it is no different to any other seat

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 95):
That said my roll on got caught a couple of times when rolling down the isle to my seeat, something which didn't happen on the 744 or A340.

Every person, every cart bumped me (and I am not wide). The skycouch footrest elevates the legs a bit, but still not enough to make it what I would call comfortable


User currently offlineVirginFlyer From New Zealand, joined Sep 2000, 4537 posts, RR: 41
Reply 96, posted (11 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 12364 times:

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 89):
http://www.voxy.co.nz/business/auckl...terminal-upgrade-underway/5/164436

A waste of money which would be better off going towards the new terminal. But alas, a regional lounge in AKL. No idea where they'll find the space for this.

As I understand it these upgrades are fairly necessary for the continued functioning of the domestic terminal until the new one is built, and it is not an either/or option. Also, are you thinking they mean a regional business class lounge? They don't. They're talking about upgrading and expanding the regional gate lounge located in the eastern end of the terminal.

For more information have a look at http://www.aucklandairport.co.nz/Air...nal/Domestic-Terminal-Changes.aspx

V/F



"So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth." - Bahá'u'lláh
User currently offlinezkncj From New Zealand, joined Nov 2005, 490 posts, RR: 0
Reply 97, posted (11 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 12320 times:

Quoting VirginFlyer (Reply 97):
They don't. They're talking about upgrading and expanding the regional gate lounge located in the eastern end of the terminal.

They maybe putting a Koru Express in down that end, there was a email send out a couple months ago asking if you would use it.


User currently offlinecchan From New Zealand, joined May 2003, 1759 posts, RR: 2
Reply 98, posted (11 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 12034 times:

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 96):
Every person, every cart bumped me (and I am not wide). The skycouch footrest elevates the legs a bit, but still not enough to make it what I would call comfortable

I suppose you are in an aisle seat. The only time I went on the NZ 77W, I was in window seat and it was ok, but I can understand what it is like for the aisle seats with those very narrow aisles.


User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7119 posts, RR: 3
Reply 99, posted (11 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 12017 times:

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 96):
Every person, every cart bumped me (and I am not wide). The skycouch footrest elevates the legs a bit, but still not enough to make it what I would call comfortable

I was also in an aisle seat, I don't recall being hit at all. I didn't pay for the skycouch but ended up with it anyway, the attendant set 2/3's of it up for my boys and they slept really well, it's a really good idea.


User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8752 posts, RR: 5
Reply 100, posted (11 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 12026 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 63):
probably a return to lease of the nxt LA 343 to SIN.
CC-CQA, CC-CQC, and CC-CQF are still in service with LAN. The next A343 that will leave the fleet is CC-CQF. CC-CQF is currently operating SCL-AKL as LA803.

[Edited 2013-08-15 00:24:39]

User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7155 posts, RR: 13
Reply 101, posted (11 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 11811 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 100):
I didn't pay for the skycouch but ended up with it anyway, the attendant set 2/3's of it up for my boys and they slept really well, it's a really good idea.

Yeah that's the best use for skycouch of all. Unless you have the whole 3 as you did it is just a normal seat. I got assigned a couch as a *G, but they used up the window seat at the last minute so I haven't used it as such yet. I would normally just select a window seat.


User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12082 posts, RR: 18
Reply 102, posted (11 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 11730 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting koruman (Reply 92):
If you're in Economy, ouch.

Have you flown 77W economy long haul Koruman?

My experience in June was that it wasn't bad. I was seated in one of the first few rows of 3 in economy and didn't find anything wrong with the seat. Felt just like a normal widebody long haul flight to me


User currently offlinezkojq From New Zealand, joined Sep 2011, 1140 posts, RR: 1
Reply 103, posted (11 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 11696 times:

First Antarctic flight of the season.
http://www.3news.co.nz/VIDEO-C17-Glo.../423/articleID/309098/Default.aspx

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 100):
CC-CQA, CC-CQC, and CC-CQF are still in service with LAN. The next A343 that will leave the fleet is CC-CQF. CC-CQF is currently operating SCL-AKL as LA803.

So which was the aircraft that 777ER, zkncj and aerorobnz saw? Was it just going to Singapore for maintenance?



Someone repaint ZK-PBG!
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7119 posts, RR: 3
Reply 104, posted (11 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 11685 times:

Quoting 777ER (Reply 102):
Have you flown 77W economy long haul Koruman?

Judging from past posts on his flying I would say that's a big fat NO, he's just repeating when he's heard from others. I have flown it and tbh I didn't see what the fuss was all about, it's a storm in a teacup and not one worth wasting time over.


User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8752 posts, RR: 5
Reply 105, posted (11 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 11684 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting zkojq (Reply 103):
So which was the aircraft that 777ER, zkncj and aerorobnz saw? Was it just going to Singapore for maintenance?

CC-CQA. As I mentioned before, CC-CQE has already left the fleet and CC-CQF will be phased out in due course. CC-CQE and CC-CQF are listed as "aircraft available" during October and December respectively per Airbus:
http://www.airbus.com/aircraftfamilies/asset/aircraft-available/


User currently offlineIADCA From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 1256 posts, RR: 8
Reply 106, posted (11 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 11682 times:

Quoting cchan (Reply 98):
I suppose you are in an aisle seat. The only time I went on the NZ 77W, I was in window seat and it was ok, but I can understand what it is like for the aisle seats with those very narrow aisles.

My only NZ 77W flight was in an aisle seat. I got hit with the carts constantly. I think it makes a big difference how large the person in the middle seat is. A person of even medium adult size there forces most adult men's shoulders to stick out into the aisles from the aisle seats. (I specifically took a look at this when I kept getting hit with the cart.)


User currently offlinePA515 From New Zealand, joined Nov 2007, 868 posts, RR: 0
Reply 107, posted (11 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 11671 times:

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 105):
Quoting zkojq (Reply 103):
So which was the aircraft that 777ER, zkncj and aerorobnz saw? Was it just going to Singapore for maintenance?

CC-CQA.

CC-CQA flew AKL-SIN two days ago (14th Aug). Arrived from SCL as LA1345 at 0055 and departed to SIN as LA9902 at 0545. Was delayed in AKL for about 3 hours. From the flight numbers it appears to have been a revenue flight SCL-AKL.

PA515


User currently offlineZKOJH From China, joined Sep 2004, 1659 posts, RR: 1
Reply 108, posted (11 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 11682 times:

''Singapore Airlines Increases Christchurch Operation in Dec 2013/Jan 2014''

SQ will operate 9 weekly flights instead of 7. Service operated by Boeing 777-200.

SQ297 SIN1945 – 1035+1CHC 772 D
SQ295 SIN2145 – 1235+1CHC 772 13

SQ298 CHC1155 – 1745SIN 772 D
SQ296 CHC1355 – 1940SIN 772 24

All we need is the links to HKG/KUL and China and then were singing in the garden city..



NZ 787-9 flying between PVG - AKL ! CAN'T WAIT!!
User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8752 posts, RR: 5
Reply 109, posted (11 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 11642 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting PA515 (Reply 107):
From the flight numbers it appears to have been a revenue flight SCL-AKL.

Yes, here is the flight plan of LA1345:
http://www.aipchile.gob.cl/fpl/trackv3/id/2325225

LA800 (CC-CQC) arrived at SCL at 10:38CLT. LA803 (CC-CQF) is currently descending into AKL.


User currently offlinesunrisevalley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 4859 posts, RR: 5
Reply 110, posted (11 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 11617 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 104):
I have flown it and tbh I didn't see what the fuss was all about, it's a storm in a teacup and not one worth wasting time over

You cant have your cake and eat it. By this I mean you cannot have 1980/90 prices today and expect the same space and catering. I remember paying around $2000 for YYZ/DTW-AKL around 1990. In 2013 that is about $3500 which is roughly a Y+ fare today.


User currently offlinemotorhussy From New Zealand, joined Mar 2000, 3135 posts, RR: 9
Reply 111, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 11535 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 104):
Judging from past posts on his flying I would say that's a big fat NO, he's just repeating when he's heard from others.

And sounding like the vaguely incoherent rantings of someone totally out-of-touch with the day-to-day banalities of normal folk, the 80% who fly Y. NZ has an excellent economy long-haul product and most could not differentiate between the quite crowded cabin of a 10-abreast 77W and a 9-abreast 77E.

Quoting haggis73 (Reply 86):
Part of the PNG Prime Ministers visit to NZ.

Amazes me that a small airline like PX can afford to take the 73G out of schedule to use for VIP flights. If the PNG Govt still intends selling a stake in the carrier, they'd better start focusing on getting the books into shape.



come visit the south pacific
User currently offlinesunrisevalley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 4859 posts, RR: 5
Reply 112, posted (11 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 11421 times:

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 111):
If the PNG Govt still intends selling a stake in the carrier, they'd better start focusing on getting the books into shape.

Lets see what Gary Toomey can do   


User currently offlinehaggis73 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2010, 112 posts, RR: 0
Reply 113, posted (11 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 11401 times:

Mike Condon is back from his holiday. His blog is back up and running.

http://mrcaviation.blogspot.co.nz/


User currently offlinenirvarma From New Zealand, joined May 2005, 109 posts, RR: 0
Reply 114, posted (11 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 11354 times:

Was there an issue with SQ286 on thursday? Just looking on Flightradar24 and there appears to be a second 77W flight to Singapore that left AKL today SQ9286.

Cheers
NV


User currently offlinezkojq From New Zealand, joined Sep 2011, 1140 posts, RR: 1
Reply 115, posted (11 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 11356 times:

Earthquake in WLG seems to be causing some holds. An Air New Zealand 737 (ZK-NGR), A320 (ZK-OAB) and a Jetconnect 737 (ZK-ZQA) have landed so the runway can't be closed? Hope our members there are ok.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 105):
Quoting PA515 (Reply 107):

Thanks for the clarification.


Edited

[Edited 2013-08-15 20:24:51]


Someone repaint ZK-PBG!
User currently offlinetexan From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 4273 posts, RR: 52
Reply 116, posted (11 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 11307 times:

Quoting zkojq (Reply 115):

Runway has been assessed and is open again.



"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
User currently offlinehaggis73 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2010, 112 posts, RR: 0
Reply 117, posted (11 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 11269 times:

Quoting nirvarma (Reply 114):
Was there an issue with SQ286 on thursday? Just looking on Flightradar24 and there appears to be a second 77W flight to Singapore that left AKL today SQ9286.

Yeah, 9V-SWN went tech yesterday. SQ9286 departed at 1400.


User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 118, posted (11 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 11015 times:

To answer the earlier question, no.

I have flown in BP and PE, and walked around Economy on the 77W. I am fortunate enough to be able to afford BP or PE, and on my own dollar often buy PE and upgrade.

But the ten abreast Economy - which I accept as inevitable - is why I don't buy less than PE.

My parents have flown in 77W Economy. They noticed the reduction in both seat pitch and width compared with the 744, and told me that they have paid a small premium to fly Air NZ Economy for the last forty years as the price for the best Economy personal space. And since trying NZ 77W Economy, three of their last four trips to Europe have been on Emirates. As my Dad says, if NZ isn't going to offer more space on a 26 hour journey, then he will just buy the cheapest fare.


User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7119 posts, RR: 3
Reply 119, posted (11 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 10966 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 118):
I have flown in BP and PE, and walked around Economy on the 77W..

Walking around it (who let you back here anyway) and actually sitting in it are completely different, until you actually buy a ticket and fly transpac you can't comment on it. It would be like me saying I know what driving an ENZO is like because I drove an F430.

Quoting koruman (Reply 118):
I am fortunate enough to work for a company able to afford BP or PE, and on my own dollar often buy PE and upgrade.

Also fixed your comment as it made little sense.


User currently offlineaerokiwi From New Zealand, joined Jul 2000, 2683 posts, RR: 4
Reply 120, posted (11 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 10944 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 119):
Walking around it (who let you back here anyway) and actually sitting in it are completely different, until you actually buy a ticket and fly transpac you can't comment on it. It would be like me saying I know what driving an ENZO is like because I drove an F430.

I've flown 10 abreast on four airlines now, including NZ and 9 abreast on three. And yes, I noticed the difference... a lot. I now pay more to go with SQ than NZ or EK to Europe. Good eh?


User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12082 posts, RR: 18
Reply 121, posted (11 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 10897 times:
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Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 120):

I guess the person's size and height is also a key aspect here. I'm not tall like others are so I always get extra space and still have a good amount of space when my large carry on bag sits at my feet. I'm not wide so I'm not bothered/affected as much about getting hit by passing carts.

I have to admit, after reading all the doom and gloom on here about the NZ 77W economy product I wasn't looking forward to the flights but once on board, settled and departed I didn't find it as bad as I was expecting (apart from an annoying Aussie who couldn't understand why NZ flew to LAX and LHR the route it does and not in a direct line)


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25004 posts, RR: 85
Reply 122, posted (11 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 10845 times:
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Quoting koruman (Reply 118):
I have flown in BP and PE, and walked around Economy on the 77W. I am fortunate enough to be able to afford BP or PE, and on my own dollar often buy PE and upgrade.

Indeed, very fortunate. Although of course, you live in wealthier Australia.

But it would be gracious if, once or twice, you gave a thought to those who are not in your happy financial position.

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 120):
I've flown 10 abreast on four airlines now, including NZ and 9 abreast on three. And yes, I noticed the difference... a lot. I now pay more to go with SQ than NZ or EK to Europe. Good eh?

First law of modern airline economics - pay more, you get more. Second law? It pays to shop around.

mariner

[Edited 2013-08-16 13:26:34]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7155 posts, RR: 13
Reply 123, posted (11 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 10669 times:

Quoting zkojq (Reply 103):
So which was the aircraft that 777ER, zkncj and aerorobnz saw?

Technically I'm overseas and have been for 2 weeks so I didn't see it, I just knew it had previously been the way LA did it


User currently offlineaerokiwi From New Zealand, joined Jul 2000, 2683 posts, RR: 4
Reply 124, posted (11 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 10640 times:

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 123):
Technically I'm overseas

Rwanda?  

My point about the 10v9 abreast issue is that everyone's going to have a different opinion. Just vote with your feet (or wallet) if it's not to your liking.


User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7155 posts, RR: 13
Reply 125, posted (11 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 10605 times:

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 124):
Rwanda?

Philippines. Back in Rwanda again maybe next year.

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 124):
My point about the 10v9 abreast issue is that everyone's going to have a different opinion. Just vote with your feet (or wallet) if it's not to your liking.

LOL I do. I have flown/have flights booked on 26 airlines this year alone. I love to give new airlines a go. Of course voting with your feet when flying to the US often means losing a extra day from work, which isn't always feasible. However,
UA appears to be finally be 'rightsizing' their Australia/South Pac routes (and now PTVs/772s) so I think it is only a matter of time before we see a return to AKL with the 788. HA is competitive, but it doesn't necessarily help those of the oneworld/star alliance persuasion.


User currently offlinemotorhussy From New Zealand, joined Mar 2000, 3135 posts, RR: 9
Reply 126, posted (11 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 10231 times:

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 125):
the oneworld/star alliance persuasion.

Wonder if there are any alliance discussions going on with them; SkyTeam would suit them I'd have thought.

Quoting texan (Reply 116):
Runway has been assessed and is open again.

I live on the Hataitai/Evans Bay hills overlooking the northern end of the runway and was quite surprised/impressed just how fast they got the inspection done.



come visit the south pacific
User currently offlinemotorhussy From New Zealand, joined Mar 2000, 3135 posts, RR: 9
Reply 127, posted (11 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 10295 times:

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 112):
Lets see what Gary Toomey can do

Sorry, don't understand what you're alluding to here; Gary Toomey is taking the Chief Exec role at 9W no? Or have you heard some purchase intent rumours?



come visit the south pacific
User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12082 posts, RR: 18
Reply 128, posted (11 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 10244 times:
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Quoting motorhussy (Reply 127):

I thought Gary Toomey was the CEO of the Federal or Reserve Bank in Australia? When was it announced he was going to an airline?


User currently offlineUnclekoru From New Zealand, joined Oct 2009, 297 posts, RR: 0
Reply 129, posted (11 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 10009 times:

Quoting 777ER (Reply 128):
I thought Gary Toomey was the CEO of the Federal or Reserve Bank in Australia? When was it announced he was going to an airline?

Gary Tommey had been CEO at Airlines PNG for quite some time.



It sounds like english, but I can't understand a word you're saying
User currently offlinemotorhussy From New Zealand, joined Mar 2000, 3135 posts, RR: 9
Reply 130, posted (11 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 9935 times:

Quoting 777ER (Reply 128):

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 127):

I thought Gary Toomey was the CEO of the Federal or Reserve Bank in Australia? When was it announced he was going to an airline?

It's been announced that Gary Toomey will take over at Jet Airways of India - 9W

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/busi...rways/story-e6frg95x-1226663504840

MH



come visit the south pacific
User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 131, posted (11 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 9841 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 122):
But it would be gracious if, once or twice, you gave a thought to those who are not in your happy financial position.

That's pretty harsh Mariner.

I'm not sure that I have to put on a sackcloth and ashes.

I wrote that it disappoints me that whereas Air New Zealand used to offer class-leading personal space in 744 Economy class (34 inch pitch, for a roughly 10% fare premium over other carriers), they chose with the 77W to be one of the first carriers to win the race to the bottom, to 32 inch Economy with 17.1 inch wide seats.

I buy Business Premier when a contractor will pay and Premium Economy on my own dollar - which usually for BNE-AKL-LAX return comes in around $2800.

I actually think that I have consistently stuck up for Economy passengers on this forum, and made multiple references to how NZ got my loyalty when I was a young professional.

I do think that 10-abreast 777 Economy was inevitable in some form, but I have written that rather than subdividing Economy into Economy and SkyCouch, the airline should instead have gone for two Economy subtypes rather like Seats To Suit:

1) 3-3-3 with 34 inch pitch, and a 10% fare premium over the market median, for the first 20 rows of Economy: the successor to the old 744.

2) 3-4-3 with 31 inch pitch marketed as "Backpacker Class" for the last 10 rows of economy, with fares 10% below the market median but with food, drink, IFE and baggage a la carte only.

Mariner, the latter would cover your price-sensitive North American style market, and the former would cover Air New Zealand's traditional market.

And Premium Economy, as currently, would cost double the discount Economy fare, and would be 2-4-2 with 38 inch pitch and Business catering.


User currently offlinesunrisevalley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 4859 posts, RR: 5
Reply 132, posted (11 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 9818 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 131):
1) 3-3-3 with 34 inch pitch, and a 10% fare premium over the market median, for the first 20 rows of Economy: the successor to the old 744.

Is this what UA has in some configurations?


User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 133, posted (11 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 9816 times:

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 132):
Is this what UA has in some configurations?

Pretty much Economy Plus but nothing like Premium Economy.

Long-haul travel for New Zealanders is very long-haul: not like a 6-9 hour Trans-Atlantic flight.

The other day I saw a quote for Economy Class AKL-LHR return travel that I received in the mid-nineties:
Singapore Airlines $2399
Qantas/BA $2499
Air NZ: $2699.

I opted for Air NZ, and many of us did in those days because we all knew that we'd have a more spacious product.


User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12082 posts, RR: 18
Reply 134, posted (11 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 9789 times:
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Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 132):
Quoting koruman (Reply 131):
1) 3-3-3 with 34 inch pitch, and a 10% fare premium over the market median, for the first 20 rows of Economy: the successor to the old 744.

Is this what UA has in some configurations?

UA has two economy products as Koruman has said. Economy Plus is a reserved area at the front of economy with the same style seat outlay as UA's normal economy but with extra space. Some FF's get free upgrades to these seats while others pay. Prices start from around $15 per sector. Same economy service as normal economy. Economy Plus is on all UA aircraft except.

All of UA's mainline aircraft has Economy Plus, RJ fleet (except CRJ200 and E135/145s) and Turbo-props except 1900Ds and Brasilla's. 1900D aircraft only operate around Florida (mainly southern routes) and Brasilla's around California. If your flying a regional aircraft, you'll know it has Economy Plus as it says ExPlus on the outside beside the boarding door.

Getting back to what Koruman suggested about NZ Economy Premium and NZ Economy Backpacker. Its a great idea and I'm sure many flyers will be happy to pay slightly more for extra space but what if only 'backpacker' fares are left? I know Koruman has said previously if he was CEO he would give the first row of 'backpacker' as premium seats but wouldn't that row be reduced leg room also? Seats to Suit could work long haul if its an overnight flight but my only fear is the airline would try and rip customers off with prices. IMHO all backpacker fares SHOULD include baggage but with BOB for food and PTVs. A customer could easily supply their own PTVs (Ipads, laptops etc for their entertainment.


User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7155 posts, RR: 13
Reply 135, posted (11 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 9761 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 131):
Premium Economy on my own dollar - which usually for BNE-AKL-LAX return comes in around $2800.

ie: cheaper than it costs to fly just the AKL-LAX in PE...


User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12082 posts, RR: 18
Reply 136, posted (11 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 9754 times:
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Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 135):

Sadly its a clear example of how a national carrier routs its own national customers. QF and VA would do the same to their Australian based flyers which is why they are often cheaper from here to LAX


User currently offlineMillwallSean From Singapore, joined Apr 2008, 1238 posts, RR: 6
Reply 137, posted (11 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 9744 times:

Does it really matter what seat width an economy class seat is. To me its all minimal and just different degrees of torture.

On my latest flight a Qantas flight attendant wanted pax to remain seated when they werent visiting the loos. Some pax protested and said they needed to walka round to prevent DVT. (Correct assumption, you should be up walking every second hour, wear support stockings and use aspirin before/after the flight)
This work well until a few middle aged hematologists stood up and said enough. Kindly explianing that if he persisted he would go against the recommendations of three specialists in hematology (medical doctors that had ph.d in blood diseases) and that they would report it as soon as they stepped of the flight.
They kindly asked him to check with his supervisor if he thought it would be wise to go against the recommendations of reknowned hematologists advise.
the supervisor came and was a bit miffed about it, when they presented who they were and their accredations the supervisor immidiately announced that we could move around freely in the cabin when needed. But that there was a risk to it.

Going against those doctors would have been bad for Qantas and the supervisor was smart/professional enough to know an expert when he saw one. I was very happy to see this. This habit of telling people to remain seated that some western airlines seems to have started needs to be stopped. it isnt good for pax health and we should to the contrary walk up and down the aisle as much as possible.

................................................

Hmm Korumans clients are old school ones and allow their contractors to fly high classes. Me I just flew into my HQ in Sweden on a dicsounted economy ticket.
A contractors travelcosts sure isnt easy to justify if you have Scandinavian management.
Swedish companies all seems to have taken a lesson from the book of IKEA. Maybe thats why their multinationala are so damn successfull everywhere...



No One Likes Us - We Dont Care.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25004 posts, RR: 85
Reply 138, posted (11 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 9689 times:
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Quoting koruman (Reply 131):
That's pretty harsh Mariner.

I'm not sure that I have to put on a sackcloth and ashes.

I'm sorry you think it is harsh, Koruman, but - as I see it - your perspective is both of the past, what the airline used to be, and the perspective of someone who flies up the front, while often reminding us that NZ is not a wealthy country.

Air NZ has had head to deal with extraordinary amounts of crap these past few years, not the least being the very liberal attitudes of the government towards civil aviation.

Yet throughout the GFC the airline remained profitable, the only one of the big three Oz/NZ airlines to do so, and that continues and even improves now. As I see it, the strength of the airline has been the back end, in the sense of reduced expectations. We know, not only from posts here, that some of the front end have not been happy.

I'm sure that sentiment, national loyalty is a contributor to the success, as well as network, but ultimately, and for most of the NZ population, price rules. Kiwis - paid less than Australians - have been offered extraordinary choices, the airline has had to fight hard for its survival and its profits. I have no idea how much Virgin Australis's foray into NZ domestic cost the airline, but we know what it cost Virgin.

That profitability is no small achievement, and puts the airline in an enviable position, far more so than either Qantas or Virgin Australia, or, on trans-Tasman at least, Emirates.

On a recent flight with Emirates, economy was okay, but there were three of us in business class - which I flew because it was an astonishingly cheap fare, less than Works de Luxe. More expensive first class was better - by a couple of people - and although I'm told there are times when Emirates business class is full, the pattern has been the same for all my TT flights with them. On one flight there was one passenger in business - me, again on a very cheap fare - and no one in first.

I know from chums there are times when first class does better than well - sucking up the rich that have deserted Air NZ, I assume - but not a reason for Air NZ to reintroduce first.

This capacity skews the economics of trans-Tasman travel, but my (TT) flights on Air NZ have never been less than effectively full, suggesting that pax see value for money in it its approach. So somehow, and I think remarkably, Air NZ has found a way through the forest, and, generally these days, low, or lower, fares rule. So it is all very well to suggest ways that it could rule even more, but no one here knows if that is true, it is all based on personal preference, what anyone thinks the airline should be, rather than what the airline actually is.

The economics of airline travel changed dramatically with the GFC. They may change again when the world's economies recover, but I doubt we'll ever get back to "the old days" and the airline has to deal with the now.

mariner

[Edited 2013-08-18 13:31:17]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineZkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4802 posts, RR: 9
Reply 139, posted (11 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 9141 times:

I've flown on NZ in both 3-3-3 and 3-4-3 777 configs. The 9 across is far superior. Sure they've added some nice touches and updated the seats but the extra space on 9 across makes a huge difference. The 10 across makes you feel like you are in a 737 seat for 12 hours.
I think NZ should have left 3-3-3 for most of economy and had a economy budget option in the last zone that was 10 across.



56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
User currently offlinegasman From New Zealand, joined Mar 2004, 859 posts, RR: 0
Reply 140, posted (11 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 9066 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 138):
I'm sorry you think it is harsh, Koruman, but - as I see it - your perspective is both of the past, what the airline used to be, and the perspective of someone who flies up the front

This description applies to me too. But I don't see it as a criticism. "Past" doesn't equate to "bad". To believe that the progressive downgrading of NZ's hard and soft product equates to some sort of inevitable reality of modern times is to unconditionally believe management spin. In terms of flying up the front - well, I don't always. I experience all classes pretty much equally, depending on route length and who's paying. Because I fly in J class more than half the time, that doesn't - in my view - disqualify me from commenting on Y class.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 139):
I've flown on NZ in both 3-3-3 and 3-4-3 777 configs. The 9 across is far superior.

I agree. But 9 abreast in a 777 hardly equals the lap of luxury either. Similarly sized seats in a A330 in a 2-4-2 config is better. And 2-3-2 in a 767 is better yet again. My point is that a 10 abreast 777 is way down the list in terms of Y class comfort. The more seats there are in a line with only 2 aisles, the worse the feeling of claustrophobia is - even if the seat width remains constant. The 744 was something of an exception - both because it is wider than a 777, and also because of the huge amount of headroom.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 139):
I think NZ should have left 3-3-3 for most of economy and had a economy budget option in the last zone that was 10 across

I see your logic, but I think this would've added a layer of complexity that wouldn't have been justified by the benefits. 10 abreast in a 777 is a bandwagon - an ill considered one in my view - that NZ have jumped on. It is largely what has caused me to vote with my feet. Time will tell if enough people follow suit.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25004 posts, RR: 85
Reply 141, posted (11 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 8947 times:
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Quoting gasman (Reply 140):
"Past" doesn't equate to "bad".

Certainly, the past past does not equate to bad, I have wonderful memories of the past. The point is that it is the past and I live in the present, the now.

Quoting gasman (Reply 140):
To believe that the progressive downgrading of NZ's hard and soft product equates to some sort of inevitable reality of modern times is to unconditionally believe management spin.

Yeah, pretty much I believe that - the bit about the reality of modern times. I don't know what the management spin is.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineaerokiwi From New Zealand, joined Jul 2000, 2683 posts, RR: 4
Reply 142, posted (11 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 8894 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 138):
I'm sorry you think it is harsh, Koruman, but - as I see it - your perspective is both of the past, what the airline used to be, and the perspective of someone who flies up the front, while often reminding us that NZ is not a wealthy country.

That's reasonable. But NZ have struggled in the consistency stakes for several years now and it is difficult to keep up. Airpoints, baggage allowances, inflight product... all have been experimented on over and over and frankly, it's tiring and ultimately frustrating. As I grow in purchasing power, I look to other options where the product is consistent and, for a little more, offers advantages far outweighing the extra costs. Koruman has made this distinction in the past, noting the changing relationship between airline and passenger as the passenger's circumstances change.

Quoting mariner (Reply 138):
Air NZ has had head to deal with extraordinary amounts of crap these past few years, not the least being the very liberal attitudes of the government towards civil aviation.

Oh boo hoo. They also got bailed out by the taxpayer. $800 million in 2001/2 money and subsequent dilutions of holdings following share splits.

NZ has also had the opportunity to benefit from these "dangerously" liberal policies - Australia anyone? But instead all we've seen is a dipping of the toe in the Sunshine Coast a few months a year and... well, there you have it. NZ's inability to take advantage of the opportunities presented by Australia has been its biggest long-term strategic blunder. Yip they've achieved some middling shorter term profits. But they've also restricted the long term profit potential when the good times return (having largely missed out on the mining boom and the opportunities that presented, not to mention the resilient Aussie economy during the GFC).

Quoting mariner (Reply 138):
This capacity skews the economics of trans-Tasman travel, but my (TT) flights on Air NZ have never been less than effectively full, suggesting that pax see value for money in it its approach.

I wonder if this will change now with the QF/EK arrangement. QF now offers fairly decent meals, IFE, 30kg of luggage (no bag limit) and frequent flyer points for the same price as NZ's seat only fare. I'm pretty much done with NZ on the Tasman now. And that's not just to be contrary... it's just a rational choice.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25004 posts, RR: 85
Reply 143, posted (11 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 8771 times:
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Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 142):
But NZ have struggled in the consistency stakes for several years now and it is difficult to keep up. Airpoints, baggage allowances, inflight product... all have been experimented on over and over and frankly, it's tiring and ultimately frustrating. As I grow in purchasing power, I look to other options where the product is consistent and, for a little more, offers advantages far outweighing the extra costs. Koruman has made this distinction in the past, noting the changing relationship between airline and passenger as the passenger's circumstances change.

Qantas has struggled - and is still struggling. Virgin Australia has seriously struggled - and is still seriously struggling.

I'm not sure why Air NZ should be immune to the economic forces that have affected those two - 9/11, the ever ascending price of oil, increased foreign competition and the GFC.

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 142):
Oh boo hoo. They also got bailed out by the taxpayer. $800 million in 2001/2 money and subsequent dilutions of holdings following share splits.

The past is the past. The once bankrupt Air New Zealand is not that airline now.

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 142):
NZ has also had the opportunity to benefit from these "dangerously" liberal policies - Australia anyone?

I didn't use the word "dangerously" - I didn't say the liberal policies are wrong and I approve of MALIAT. They are, however, a factor, and a crappy one for Air NZ. I think the liberal aviation policies of Australia may be more problematic because they are less rational.

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 142):
I wonder if this will change now with the QF/EK arrangement. QF now offers fairly decent meals, IFE, 30kg of luggage (no bag limit) and frequent flyer points for the same price as NZ's seat only fare.

I imagine they will. Hopefully, at least, the (onboard) catering on Emirates will improve. I can't predict the future.

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 142):
I'm pretty much done with NZ on the Tasman now. And that's not just to be contrary... it's just a rational choice.

It's a choice - we can all claim rationality. Curiously to you I am sure, Air NZ has wooed - or may be wooing - me back.

Virgin Blue lost me when it went upmarket, I'll fly Qantas perhaps, but (much as I like the A380) I think I'm done with Emirates, absent a spectacular fare. I do still want to try LAN, it's the Spanish thing.

mariner

[Edited 2013-08-20 14:13:16]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinesunrisevalley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 4859 posts, RR: 5
Reply 144, posted (11 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 8571 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 143):
the ever ascending price of oil,

I'm not sure this is entirely valid > Check this link.

http://www.iata.org/publications/eco...nitor/Pages/price-development.aspx

In its recent interim report ( Aug.13) CX reported an 8.5% reduction in fuel costs ..quote
n the first half of 2013, the Group’s net fuel costs decreased by 8.5% compared to the same period in 2012. Notwithstanding this reduction, fuel remains the Group’s most significant cost, accounting for 38.8% of total operating costs during the period. Managing the risk associated with high and volatile fuel prices remains a high priority. In April 2013 Cathay Pacific took advantage of a brief drop in fuel prices to extend its fuel hedging into 2016.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25004 posts, RR: 85
Reply 145, posted (11 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 8576 times:
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Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 144):
I'm not sure this is entirely valid > Check this link

At the end of 2003, oil cracked $30 a barrel. In 2008, it hit $147 a barrel. Now Brent crude is hovering around $105 - $110 a barrel, which is some jump from $30.

Now, airlines have learned how to cope with it, but four US airlines went bankrupt in 2008.

edit: it's actually more than four, but I am discounting a couple of smaller airlines and mergers.

mariner

[Edited 2013-08-20 18:45:55]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinesunrisevalley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 4859 posts, RR: 5
Reply 146, posted (11 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 8199 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 145):
Now, airlines have learned how to cope with it

This is true probably for the last 5 years. Any that are still blaming fuel prices for present maladies need to be looking elsewhere in my view.


User currently offlinemotorhussy From New Zealand, joined Mar 2000, 3135 posts, RR: 9
Reply 147, posted (11 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 7996 times:

Quoting gasman (Reply 140):
I see your logic, but I think this would've added a layer of complexity that wouldn't have been justified by the benefits. 10 abreast in a 777 is a bandwagon - an ill considered one in my view - that NZ have jumped on. It is largely what has caused me to vote with my feet. Time will tell if enough people follow suit.

How could this be any more complex than the seats-to-suit model? And yes I understand this isn't the model used long-haul but it would circumvent the need for it.

Anyhow, I think price would be the dictate; the cheapest fares are in the seats down the back, which are 10-abreast. Maybe call them 'traveler' fares or some-such. Standard Y as 9-abreast. Same levels of service across all three Y cabins in the 77W, just less personal space down back.

I've not yet flown in an NZ 10-abreast Triple-7 but I did find that 9-abreast was at the boundary of my comfort level KIX-AKL.

Regards
MH



come visit the south pacific
User currently offlineNZ1 From New Zealand, joined May 2004, 2249 posts, RR: 25
Reply 148, posted (11 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 7908 times:
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NZ today announced to staff a proposal to disestablish AKL Heavy Maintenance from July 2014 with the loss of up to 180 jobs. This means the 777-200 upgrade would be outsourced. There were numerous briefings held today in AKL & CHC to give staff the presentation. I don't have an external link yet but I expect it to be in the media at some point.

Fair to say there are a lot of shocked and upset staff tonight.

NZ1


User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12082 posts, RR: 18
Reply 149, posted (11 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 7842 times:
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Quoting NZ1 (Reply 148):

Not good news! Are you able to say what the reason was? Would you be able to transfer to CHC or look for another job?

MX is one area I don't believe should be outsourced if the airline has the services/staff for it. Those staff are very highly skilled and forcing them to move overseas would be a great loss


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25004 posts, RR: 85
Reply 150, posted (11 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 7825 times:
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Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 146):
This is true probably for the last 5 years. Any that are still blaming fuel prices for present maladies need to be looking elsewhere in my view.

To an extent it depends on the airline and its policies - and timing and the oil price and the cost to hedge. The highly successful Ryanair has just been bitten by fuel (1Q, 2013)::

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...treats-on-oil-and-late-easter.html

"Ryanair First-Quarter Profit Slides on Oil and Easter Timing"

Fuel hedging is a complex science (and some luck) and capital intensive. Several airlines have been burned by making the wrong calls. Southwest had a dazzling run of successful fuel hedges but as the price rose it became more expensive to hedge and the spread diminished.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/47254760

Now, some don't hedge much and Allegiant doesn't hedge at all, it copes in other ways. Some airlines do hedge and do very well.

mariner

[Edited 2013-08-22 02:07:18]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 151, posted (11 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 7776 times:

Quoting gasman (Reply 140):
I see your logic, but I think this would've added a layer of complexity that wouldn't have been justified by the benefits. 10 abreast in a 777 is a bandwagon - an ill considered one in my view - that NZ have jumped on

It would be so easy to introduce. Rather like how Virgin have a far more streamlined version of Seats To Suit.

Backpacker Class: L, S, G, K and P
- ten abreast seating in Rows 51-60, 31 inch pitch, no frequent flyer benefits, $25 per bag per sector, IFE, food and drink for purchase.

Full Economy Class: M, H, Q, V, W, T and L class
-nine abreast seating in rows 34-50, 34 inch pitch, full frequent flyer recognition, 1 free bag, included IFE, food and drinks.

Economy SkyCouch: Y and B class
-nine abreast seating in rows 37-46, as per economy class.

Notes:
1) Any Full Economy passenger can upgrade any sector to SkyCouch upon payment according to a sliding scale based upon the class of ticket purchased.

2) If Full Economy sells out but Backpacker does not, any passenger can book full Economy service and be charged at the relevant L class fare, but will be seated in Backpacker class rows 51-60, but with included baggage, IFE, food, drink and frequent flyer benefits.


User currently offlineNZ1 From New Zealand, joined May 2004, 2249 posts, RR: 25
Reply 152, posted (11 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 7886 times:
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Quoting 777ER (Reply 149):

The reason is because of the huge drop off in demand once the 787 starts to arrive, and the 744/763 fleet has left. The capacity gap is too big for the company to absorb by keeping on engineers who will have nothing to do.

My position is ok at present as I am in a support function and not directly working on the aircraft, however these areas are to be reviewed in Feb next year. Fingers crossed!

NZ1


User currently offlinecchan From New Zealand, joined May 2003, 1759 posts, RR: 2
Reply 153, posted (11 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 7840 times:

Quoting NZ1 (Reply 148):
NZ today announced to staff a proposal to disestablish AKL Heavy Maintenance from July 2014 with the loss of up to 180 jobs. This means the 777-200 upgrade would be outsourced. There were numerous briefings held today in AKL & CHC to give staff the presentation.

Obviously the staff and even the public would not welcome the news.

Quoting NZ1 (Reply 152):
The reason is because of the huge drop off in demand once the 787 starts to arrive, and the 744/763 fleet has left.

If my understanding is correct, the 763 will stay till around 2016? By that time the 772 are getting older, so do some early 320. Judging from the 788 problems, it won't be surprising that the 789 may need some fixing from time to time?


User currently offlineZKSUJ From New Zealand, joined May 2004, 7084 posts, RR: 12
Reply 154, posted (11 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 7740 times:

Quoting NZ1 (Reply 148):

That's not good. Wiping out maintenance completely baffles me


User currently offlinesunrisevalley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 4859 posts, RR: 5
Reply 155, posted (11 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 7731 times:

Quoting ZKSUJ (Reply 154):
That's not good. Wiping out maintenance completely baffles me

I believe they are proposing to get out of Heavy Maintenance. The regular day to day maintenance ability would have to stay in place just to keep the fleet flying.


User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12082 posts, RR: 18
Reply 156, posted (11 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 7725 times:
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NZ1. How safe is the A320/B737 heavy MX?

User currently offlinezkojq From New Zealand, joined Sep 2011, 1140 posts, RR: 1
Reply 157, posted (11 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 7720 times:

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 123):
Technically I'm overseas and have been for 2 weeks so I didn't see it, I just knew it had previously been the way LA did it

Ah.  
Quoting NZ1 (Reply 152):
The reason is because of the huge drop off in demand once the 787 starts to arrive, and the 744/763 fleet has left. The capacity gap is too big for the company to absorb by keeping on engineers who will have nothing to do.

This is a real shame. ANZES has some incredibly talented folks working there. What effect will this have on the Hawaiian and Virgin Australia contracts/business? Will recruitment/training through the Aviation Academy stop? A friend of mine suggests that they should have saved the money spent on all that black paint.

Quoting NZ1 (Reply 148):
proposal
Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 155):
proposing

Noting that it is apparently still in the proposal stage, I wonder what the chances are of it not happening? Fingers crossed.

[Edited 2013-08-22 06:11:06]


Someone repaint ZK-PBG!
User currently offlineZKSUJ From New Zealand, joined May 2004, 7084 posts, RR: 12
Reply 158, posted (11 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 7583 times:

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 155):
I believe they are proposing to get out of Heavy Maintenance. The regular day to day maintenance ability would have to stay in place just to keep the fleet flying.

Got ya, I read it the wrong way taking it as heavy maintenance (for the heavy fleet).


User currently offlineaotearoa From New Zealand, joined May 2005, 137 posts, RR: 0
Reply 159, posted (11 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 7574 times:

Unfortuntaely, I sense the 'enevitable' in regard to the heavy maintenance outcomes. It's, not that the newer aircraft types don't need heavy maintenance. It's just that this work is spread out across the service life, avoiding the big downtime visits of the current 747 and 767 fleets.

When other heavy work does come along from time to time, like the 777-200 refresh project, the work by its very nature is very patchy, making it difficult for the airline to justify the long term retention of this group. The other piece to consider is that the airline is competing with the big players in Asia who make a bussiness out of heavy maintenance.

You can look to the way the way the airline managers it's big Rolls and GE engine programs these days as a signal of the way ahead. It's just way more financially viable to pay someone else to effectively maintain and overhaul, these big complex engines.

For now, I believe the narrow body work is secure, with plenty of outside work from VA. However VA themselves will no doubt be looking closely at the ANZ cost versus 'other' options down the line. I'm not sure the airline is alone in these deliberations, with other Australasian Airlines also contemplating their medium term maintenance requirements.

This is very sad for sure, and my heart goes out to those likely to be affected. This will be a very difficult time for them and their families.


User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12082 posts, RR: 18
Reply 160, posted (11 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 7449 times:
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http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/9078...30/Air-New-Zealand-to-axe-180-jobs

"This is largely due to Air New Zealand and its customers introducing more modern aircraft to their fleets, which require less frequent maintenance,’’ the statement said.

In particular, a contract with Hawaiian Airlines for maintenance on its 767 aircraft is coming to an end with no replacement work


Well that answers the previous question about HA's B763 fleet. Guess the VA narrowbody contract is safe but what happens with VA B77W fleet?


User currently offlineZKOJH From China, joined Sep 2004, 1659 posts, RR: 1
Reply 161, posted (11 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 7328 times:

''Air New Zealand passenger numbers up 4% in Jul-2013''

Passenger numbers: 1.1 million, +4.2% year-on-year;
Short-haul: 958,000, +4.9%;
Domestic: 672,000, +5.1%;
Tasman/Pacific: 286,000, +4.4%;
Long-haul: 123,000, -1.1%;
Asia/Japan/UK: 39,000, -22.6%;
North America/UK: 84,000, +13.6%;

However the one that looks alarming is the ASIA/JAPAN market! -22% is the agreement with CX making any progress?

I was at HKG last night and I took a walk to Zone G and the NZ check in area for the night flight to AKL . and to be honest they might just ax it. hardly anyone on the flight. The whole check area looked a right shame I counted 7 desks with only 8 Pax's check in (one for everyone)!!

http://centreforaviation.com/news/ai...l-2013-group-wide-yields-up-257246



NZ 787-9 flying between PVG - AKL ! CAN'T WAIT!!
User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7155 posts, RR: 13
Reply 162, posted (11 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 7293 times: