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Did TWA Have Plans To Order The B747-400?  
User currently offlineUnited Airline From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2001, 9168 posts, RR: 15
Posted (1 year 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 12556 times:

American West ordered a few right?

What about TWA? Did they have plans to do so?

38 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSpaceshipDC10 From Canada, joined Jan 2013, 1703 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (1 year 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 12577 times:

As far as I can say, no. Perhaps others will contradict me. What I know is the company was "stuck" with its aging fleet of 747-100 and some early -200B as well as L-1011s. There were plans to have an A330 fleet but that didn't materialize. TWA didn't have money. It's only during the '90s that it expended the 767 fleet with some -300ER. and retired the Tristars in 1997.


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User currently offlinesevenheavy From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 1156 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (1 year 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 12576 times:

In a word, no.

They had ordered A330's however. This was back in the late 80's or early 90's so they would have been relatively early customers. The order was deferred and delayed until it was eventually swapped for a never delivered A318/19/20/21 order.

In reality TWA probably knew that the B744 was too much aircraft for them. They had sold the only routes that could have supported them (LHR-JFK/LAX) and their once mighty transatlantic network was a shadow of its former self. For the last few years they were down to a few B763's and B757's across the atlantic



So long 701, it was nice knowing you.
User currently offlineTW870 From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 225 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 12576 times:
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Many at TWA would have loved to have ordered the 747-400 when it came on the market in the late 1980s. The problem is that TWA was so strapped financially that it could never have afforded it.

When Carl Icahn bought TWA in January of 1986 in a hostile takeover, he worked with the investment bank Drexel-Burnham-Lambert to raise cash for the deal using junk bonds, which are very high risk securities which require the seller to pay a high rate of interest. Once Icahn was in charge of TWA, that airline's operation had to pay back the interest on the bonds. So as United and Northwest were writing checks to Boeing to pay for their new 747-400s, TWA paid almost $500 million in interest on the takeover financing in 1989. Add that to the overall weaknesses in TWA's route system that made it very hard to generate premium revenue, and you end up with a situation in which the carrier could not obtain the airplanes it needed to be an effective competitor. And once Icahn forced the airline to sell the LHR routes in 1991, the 747-400 would likely not even have had a place at TWA, as the remaining routes all faced steep competition and would not have warranted an airplane that size.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25117 posts, RR: 22
Reply 4, posted (1 year 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 12573 times:

Quoting United Airline (Thread starter):
American West ordered a few right?

They ordered 4 and cancelled the order a few months later as part of their bankruptcy filing.
http://www.apnewsarchive.com/1991/Am...d-c8246193d52ec08514f576850ac5cc53

Quoting United Airline (Thread starter):
What about TWA? Did they have plans to do so?

No. You have asked this question before. TWA had no routes that required the 744's range.


User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4197 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (1 year 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 12572 times:

Quoting sevenheavy (Reply 2):

In a word, no.

They had ordered A330's however. This was back in the late 80's or early 90's so they would have been relatively early customers. The order was deferred and delayed until it was eventually swapped for a never delivered A318/19/20/21 order.

Did they also not have a look at the A340 as well?



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlinejfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3431 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (1 year 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 12574 times:

Guys, there is nothing wrong with rediscussing a topic 12 years later. Cut the OP some slack.

Back to the point, TWA was in a long, slow demise. Not sure why...they had a good route structure to Europe and they had a midwest hub.

Bad decisions, bad leaderhip, tough unions all led to a painfully slow death of a great airline. While Eastern and Pan Am enjoyed a quicker death with only a decade of turmoil, TWA really went through the wringer.

Towards the end, they were a one hub airline (STL) in a city with little O&D. They had a small gateway in NY (JFK) that operated out of an ancient terminal with ancient airplanes and played second fiddle to DL and AA until they shrunk so much they were near irrelevant in the NY market.

They basically wasted away until there was nothing left and then died. Very sad.

Had they survived, they would have been a one hub airline with a few small focus cities in JFK, SJU, and LAX.

Today, their fleet would have consisted of Airbuses, 717s, a few remaining MD 80s and some 757/767s.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25117 posts, RR: 22
Reply 7, posted (1 year 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 12572 times:

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 7):
Guys, there is nothing wrong with rediscussing a topic 12 years later. Cut the OP some slack.

I would agree if someone other than the same OP was asking the question. No point asking a question that you obviously know the answer to.


User currently offlineredtailsforever From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 107 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 12572 times:

There's actually a scene in the movie Jarhead, with Jake Gyllenhaal, where the troops disembark from a TWA 744 (fantasy cgi of course) in Iraq.

User currently offlineSpaceshipDC10 From Canada, joined Jan 2013, 1703 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (1 year 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 12576 times:

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 7):
TWA was in a long, slow demise. Not sure why...they had a good route structure to Europe and they had a midwest hub.

Like Pan Am, TW had difficulties to fill tgeir large fleet of 747 except perhaps during summers. Then came deregulation and thus TWA core network, the Atlantic, faced many new competitors and the fares that were going down. Just like PA, TW wasn't ready for that new reality.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 7):
While Eastern and Pan Am enjoyed a quicker death with only a decade of turmoil

Pan Am slow death started as soon as Trippe retired. There was a leadership between his tenure and the arrival of Seawell and although with the latter there were some ups, in the end Pan Am was doomed to fail, especially after the Pacific Division sale.



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User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8325 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (1 year 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 12577 times:
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The TWA of 1970 had a need for the 747-100, the 1990 version was in a twin engine world with the A330 that were sadly never delivered. Other then JFK and LAX to LHR TWA didn't have route needing that big an airplane. The Tel Aviv route could ahve also used a 744. The 747-400 was a Pacific 747, though the bigger European airlines used to on the Atlantic. IT wouldn't have made sense for BA, KLM, LH and AF to have a Asian fleet and an Atlantic one too.

User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3733 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (1 year 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 12575 times:

In addition to their A330 order, TWA was also supposed to be the worldwide launch customer for the Rolls-Royce Trent 700. That never happened either, though the Trent is now the most popular powerplant for the A330.

Speaking of which, CX later became the first to put Trents on their A330s after TWA kept deferring their order.

[Edited 2013-08-05 15:33:35]


Primary Airport: FWA/Alternate Airport: DTW/Not employed by the FWACAA or their partners
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8325 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (1 year 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 12574 times:
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Will never forget an advertisement Airbus took out on the New York Times with Icahn in the center talking him up as a great visionary, how sad that is now.

User currently offlineF9animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5025 posts, RR: 28
Reply 13, posted (1 year 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 12573 times:

If TWA had survived another year or two, the airline would have been very healthy. The karabu contract was nearly done, and TW would have been generating great profits. No doubt the fleet would have been nice today. Add in all the merger mania, TWA would have likely been merged. I wonder why America West never took a bid? That sure would have been an interesting combination.


I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently onlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20496 posts, RR: 62
Reply 14, posted (1 year 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 12570 times:

Quoting F9animal (Reply 14):
If TWA had survived another year or two, the airline would have been very healthy.

TWA would have been decimated in the 9/11 aftermath, and struggled right along with everyone else in the ensuing years, if by some miracle they could have survived. As much as I liked to fly TWA, even I'm a realist that if AA hadn't bought them when they did, there would have been nothing left of TWA flying anywhere, not even a focus city in STL for the years that survived.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineDL_Mech From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 1933 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (1 year 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 12570 times:

Well, hopefully this question will be answered by 2025.


This plane is built to withstand anything... except a bad pilot.
User currently offlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4437 posts, RR: 19
Reply 16, posted (1 year 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 12571 times:

Quoting F9animal (Reply 14):
TWA would have likely been merged.

Er, maybe i'm missing something but TWA was merged, bought out by AA so I don't understand your premise !



The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
User currently onlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20496 posts, RR: 62
Reply 17, posted (1 year 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 12569 times:

Quoting warden145 (Reply 19):
it seems to me that people are coming down unnecessarily hard

When you count the number of repetitive threads on the same subject, over and over, the reaction isn't really that harsh. It's disrespectful to those who've contributed in past threads to not at least link the previous thread in the OP, asking for an update, instead of treating the contributions made in the past as if they didn't matter.

Quoting warden145 (Reply 19):
even though I essentially knew the answer

I rest my case.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4197 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (1 year 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 12569 times:

Quoting F9animal (Reply 14):
If TWA had survived another year or two, the airline would have been very healthy.

You don't know that, the management were not really on the ball and Frank Lorenzo was in the process of destroying anything he touched.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 14):
TWA would have likely been merged

Yes, AA merged with them or did you just forget that?



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineBOACCunard From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 864 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (1 year 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 9751 times:

Quoting brilondon (Reply 19):
You don't know that, the management were not really on the ball and Frank Lorenzo was in the process of destroying anything he touched.

Frank Lorenzo? In 2001?!



Getting There is Half the Fun!
User currently offlineirregking From Germany, joined Feb 2008, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 8263 times:

Here's a pic from the MODIFIED AIRLINERS website, I just thought it's fitting to the topic  http://www.cardatabase.net/modifieda...earch/photo_search.php?id=00005770


disclaimer, before anyone gets the idea to slander this post 
1) this pic is obviously fake/photoshopped
2) I am not the owner/creator of this pic



Worked on: A300,310,319,320,321,332,333,342,343,346,380,B732/3/4/5,744,DC10 -- Currently working on: A380 only
User currently offlineeinsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 3051 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (1 year 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 7699 times:

The question was answered way back then, but TWA wouldn't have needed 747s. For starters, in the late 1990s the airline began to center around domestic flights rather than longhaul and the A330s would have been able to handle those few international flights.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 17):
Quoting F9animal (Reply 14):
TWA would have likely been merged.

Er, maybe i'm missing something but TWA was merged, bought out by AA so I don't understand your premise !
Quoting brilondon (Reply 19):
Quoting F9animal (Reply 14):
TWA would have likely been merged

Yes, AA merged with them or did you just forget that?

Did you guys read his post? He's talking if TWA had remained in a healthy financial position past 2001, as in, if the airline had been around to see the start of the merger mania era in 2005 when US and HP merged. TWA was nearing bankruptcy again when AMR struck a deal to buy it out.



"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2221 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (1 year 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 6759 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 11):
The TWA of 1970 had a need for the 747-100,

TWA's president in the 1960s and 1970s, Charles Tillinghast, said in the book "The Sporty Game" that TWA did not need the 747 in the 1970s, and he wished the airline had skipped the 747, and standardized on the L-1011 or DC-10 as their only wide body.

It was very easy to make money with 747s pre-deregulation in the summer, but very hard to fill them the rest of the year.

The only pitfall with Tillinghast's reasoning is that early models of the L-1011 lacked transatlantic range. In the late 1970s, after Rolls Royce worked the bugs out of the RB-211 and was able to make the engines more powerful, TWA upgraded some of their US domestic fleet of TriStars so they could be used on transatlantic routes from the East Coast. The only model of L-1011 that could fly LHR-LAX was the short fuselage L-1011-500, which did not enter service until around 1980, and which TWA did not operate.



Seaholm Maples are #1!
User currently offlineSpaceshipDC10 From Canada, joined Jan 2013, 1703 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (1 year 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 6229 times:

Quoting irregking (Reply 21):
Here's a pic from the MODIFIED AIRLINERS website, I just thought it's fitting to the topic  http://www.cardatabase.net/modifieda...earch/photo_search.php?id=00005770

That looks great. Would have been cool to see it in real.



KEEP LOOKING UP as in Space Fan News
User currently offlinewinstonlegthigh From United States of America, joined Nov 2012, 119 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 4712 times:

Quoting redtailsforever (Reply 9):
There's actually a scene in the movie Jarhead, with Jake Gyllenhaal, where the troops disembark from a TWA 744 (fantasy cgi of course) in Iraq.

I get the feeling that more than a handful from around here would stand up and walk out upon seeing that.  

**I've never seen or heard of Jarhead**



Never has gravity been so uplifting.
25 SpaceshipDC10 : To serve Europe from JFK and BOS they could have had L-1011-100s with the first being delivered during 1975 to SV. That could have been a way to redu
26 jfk777 : TWA did reduce their 747 fleet, they sold 6 to the Imperial Iranian Air Force in 1975 or 76. Some of those 747 are still being sed today in Iran.
27 Post contains images redtailsforever : It defineately was not classic cinema
28 Max Q : How many 747's did they have altogether ? And L1011'S ?
29 DETA737 : The problem with the 747s was that they were easy to fill during the summer season, but during the winter TWA had a problem filling such a large plane
30 skywaymanaz : I'm pretty sure America West did look them over and kick the tires. It was in the news that America West was considering taking over the STL hub leav
31 SpaceshipDC10 : I know. I only forgot they had less 747 than Pan Am. 35 different frames. Between 1969 and 1971 they took delivery of 19 B747-131, including the four
32 jfk777 : TWA was a European operation only, PA had South America and Asia for use of their 747 too. PA had the advantage of opposite seasons since Latin Ameri
33 SpaceshipDC10 : TWA took delivery of 38 L-1011s of which: 33....L-1011-1 - 1972 (6), 1973 (8); 1974 (11); 1975 (6); 1976 (2) 5......L-1011-100 - 1981 (2); 1982 (3) -
34 777STL : No way. TW was essentially a domestic airline in its final days with a few token international routes, mostly out of JFK. They would have had absolute
35 Viscount724 : It's my recollection that TWA sold the aircraft back to Boeing and Boeing sold them to the Iranian Air Force.
36 TVNWZ : Not sure that was discussed. However TW and HP did have a codeshare agreement starting in 2001. Didn't last long.
37 SpaceshipDC10 : That's correct, except for one that was bought back by TWA.
38 Max Q : Great info SpDC10. Thanks for that.
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