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A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 13  
User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2649 posts, RR: 4
Posted (8 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 60574 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Hi All,

The previous thread became long so Part 13 is being created.

Part 12 can be found here A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 12 (by wilco737 Jun 12 2013 in Civil Aviation)

Regards,
Pat


You push down on that yoke, the houses get bigger, you pull back on the yoke, the houses get bigger- Ken Foltz
275 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 1, posted (8 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 59689 times:

I'm afraid - but nut sure - that this is the tailfin of MSN4, spotted in Hamburg today.


A350 Fin and A380 by XFW-Spotter, on Flickr

[Edited 2013-08-20 09:51:05]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinestarbucks From Netherlands, joined Feb 2013, 595 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (8 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 59546 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 1):
I'm afraid - but nut sure - that this is the tailfin of MSN4, spotted in Hamburg today.

If you look at the original size photo, you can see a "04" through the white sheets covering the tail fin... on the "bottom" of the fin

//Edit, I took a screenshot:
Big version: Width: 1270 Height: 924 File size: 1299kb


[Edited 2013-08-20 10:23:12]


A350 logbook: http://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AlVgPnmHLOovdFdzbVlyQzhYNDhCb1VFN1RkYXkwV3c&output=html
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 3, posted (8 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 59139 times:

Nicely spotted, thanks.

The tailfin will be attached in station 40, we can assume that MSN4 is in station 50 for fuselage join now. It should move to station 40 next month and join MSN2 in station 30 at the end of September or early October (it took MSN2 just under 8 weeks from arrival in TLS to station 30 transfer).

First time 2 A350s will be together in station 30.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 4, posted (8 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 58438 times:

Some useful information about the first flight of Cabin0 can be found here:

http://www.ausbt.com.au/airbus-a350-makes-its-first-virtual-flight



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 5, posted (8 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 58006 times:

I have some good news, MSN4 is in station 40 since August 19.


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineaviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 581 posts, RR: 8
Reply 6, posted (8 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 57953 times:

Thanks Karel
Did you have a date for station 50 and MSN4 ?


User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2792 posts, RR: 59
Reply 7, posted (8 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 57801 times:

Quoting aviaponcho (Reply 6):
Did you have a date for station 50 and MSN4 ?

If we don't get it 5 days before is a safe bet, was so for MSN003. Good info Karel, lets see how long it takes until MSN004 is in S30, last I have is MSN002, took 48 days from S50 to S30 so say 30-40 days forward, end Sept we shall have MSN004 entering S30 and MSN003 going to flight test.



Non French in France
User currently offlineaviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 581 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (8 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 57771 times:

Ferpe MSN4 receives cabin monument at station 50, might be a little longer than MSN003 maybe ?

User currently offlineaviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 581 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (8 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 57695 times:

For MSN2 I have FAL50 : 13/06, Station 30 : 26/07, so a tad longer than for MSN3 (18/02 -> 15/03)

User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 10, posted (8 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 57645 times:

Quoting aviaponcho (Reply 8):
Ferpe MSN4 receives cabin monument at station 50

MSN4 won't have a cabin, it's a light weight test instrument aircraft.

Quoting aviaponcho (Reply 6):
Did you have a date for station 50 and MSN4 ?

I'll ask   The aft fuselage had arrived on August 7 so station 59 and 50 all happened in just 12 days.

[Edited 2013-08-23 02:40:10]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineaviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 581 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (8 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 57484 times:

Oups
Thank you Karel...


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 12, posted (8 months 1 day ago) and read 57268 times:

Airbus just teased us with this picture on Twitter:

http://twitter.com/Airbus/status/370869627640741888

Any idea if this is MSN2 or 4, or another wheel set?

[Edited 2013-08-23 05:50:44]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineaviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 581 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (8 months 1 day ago) and read 57193 times:

No A350
Can someone read the tire markings ?


User currently offlinestarbucks From Netherlands, joined Feb 2013, 595 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (8 months 1 day ago) and read 57165 times:

It's no A350 I think and it doesn't have the tilt of the A330... I'd say the wing gear of an A380


A350 logbook: http://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AlVgPnmHLOovdFdzbVlyQzhYNDhCb1VFN1RkYXkwV3c&output=html
User currently offlineA380900 From France, joined Dec 2003, 1091 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (8 months 1 day ago) and read 57131 times:

Sorry I'm not here very often but can someone give a quick update on when the next A350 will take to he skies?

User currently offlineStTim From UK - England, joined Aug 2013, 463 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (8 months 1 day ago) and read 57095 times:

Due around the start of September - so quite soon if they are still on schedule.

User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2792 posts, RR: 59
Reply 17, posted (8 months 23 hours ago) and read 56969 times:

Quoting StTim (Reply 16):
Due around the start of September

Change that to planned end of September for MSN003, here the complete rollout plan for the test airplanes:

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm262/ferpe_bucket/flighttestprogram_zps1611e5fd.jpg



Non French in France
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 18, posted (8 months 23 hours ago) and read 56876 times:

MSN3 is in the C63 hangar since August 8, it should have its engines attached by now. I expect indoor ground tests are currently in progress.


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineBogi From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 months 22 hours ago) and read 56810 times:

Airbus team leader, Christian Binder:

German: "Wir rechnen damit, dass wir ihn (test jet MSN2) um den Jahreswechsel fliegen sehen."

http://mobil.abendblatt.de/hamburg/h...cc=0&emvAD=320x480&nbcol=0|unknown

Translated with Google:

"We expect that we him (test jet MSN2) flying will see around the new year."

[Edited 2013-08-23 07:43:01]

User currently offlineaviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 581 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (8 months 22 hours ago) and read 56747 times:

I think he's speaking of MSN2 1st cabin equipped A350

So it's Ok with Ferpe's #reply17 planning


User currently offlineStTim From UK - England, joined Aug 2013, 463 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (8 months 22 hours ago) and read 56731 times:

Oops - I sqinted up that slide to the wrong month.      

User currently offlineairmagnac From Germany, joined Apr 2012, 276 posts, RR: 43
Reply 22, posted (8 months 22 hours ago) and read 56725 times:

Quoting aviaponcho (Reply 20):
he's speaking of MSN2 1st cabin equipped A350

So it's Ok with Ferpe's #reply17 planning


Indeed he is...I had an "oh sh*t !" moment for a second there  
.

"Der dritte Testjet wird mit einer vollständigen Kabinenausstattung abheben. "Wir rechnen damit, dass wir ihn um den Jahreswechsel fliegen sehen.""

the third test aircraft with a full cabin fitting = MSN2
MSN3 is the second test aircraft to be completed and fly



One "oh shit" can erase a thousand "attaboys".
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 23, posted (8 months 22 hours ago) and read 56707 times:

Quoting Bogi (Reply 19):
"We expect that we him (test jet MSN3) flying will see around the new year."

Not correct translated. It says "The third testjet will take off with a full cabin interior. We expect that we will see him flying around the New Year."

The third testbed is MSN2, not MSN3. The order is MSN1 -> MSN3 -> MSN2 -> MSN4 -> MSN5.

/edit

airmagnac was faster.

[Edited 2013-08-23 07:48:52]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 24, posted (8 months 22 hours ago) and read 56666 times:

Section 19 for MSN5 has been spotted today in Hamburg.


A350 part section 19 MSN005 by XFW-Spotter, on Flickr



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 25, posted (8 months 21 hours ago) and read 57301 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 1):
hat this is the tailfin of MSN4, spotted in Hamburg today.

The tailfin of MSN4 was transported to TLS today.


A300-600ST Beluga by XFW-Spotter, on Flickr

It flew with the second Beluga, registration F-GSTB. I tracked it, callsign was BGA2TB:




Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2792 posts, RR: 59
Reply 26, posted (8 months 18 hours ago) and read 57041 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 25):
The tailfin of MSN4 was transported to TLS today.

Great, now keep an eye on the complete tail section of MSN005 and we can then get the entry for P59 for the last prototype .



Non French in France
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 27, posted (8 months 16 hours ago) and read 57767 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 26):
Great, now keep an eye on the complete tail section of MSN005 and we can then get the entry for P59 for the last prototype

It should be ready soon as FAL start is scheduled for the beginning of October.

BTW capturing the arrival of this MSN5 section is very important, it means we should see the same parts for MSN6 at the end of next month if the supply chain is indeed ramping up to 1 delivery per month.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2792 posts, RR: 59
Reply 28, posted (8 months 6 hours ago) and read 57482 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 27):
BTW capturing the arrival of this MSN5 section is very important

Speaking on schedules I tried to go into the latest A schedule pictures we have to see if one could read out anything more, yes you could, several things  Wow!  :

A. Before you present be sure to be syncronized, especially with schedules   . Look at this comparison of schedules from the PAS briefing 6 June, the week before first flight. First the program managements slide prepared for D Evrard:

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm262/ferpe_bucket/flighttestprogram_zps1611e5fd.jpg

and then the flight test centers slide presented by Frank Chapman:

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm262/ferpe_bucket/PASbreifing35015ChapmanwithannotationaboutMSN002and004_zps30d894bf.jpg

Now look at FF (first flight) of MSN002 and 004 in these two slides, Evrard says 002 flies before 004 and Chapman the opposite    . I have also tried to put in half years in Chapmans slide, a bit more iffy but I think the test center thought 002 and 004 flies before new year, Evrards team have another meaning       . I think there is no question that Evrard has the more up to date or politically correct version for outside consumption, the test center did not get this briefing and there were no check on the day they were in sync (you normally do that in a presentation rehearsal, not 100% prof. guys  ).

B. So what is the real timeplan? I would say 3/4 Evrard and 1/4 Chapman, Evrard is breifed on the latest status in the supply chain and told the guy doing the slide to put in some cushion as well, nothing worse then not keeping word   . The test center shows the real plan as they had it a week before first flight    . Add to this that Germany now says MSN002 flies at year end and not end Jan, I think this just add cred. to my interpretation of Evrards slide, has a bit of sandbagging in it  . So how do we handle Chapmans slide? As the real internal plan?? 

[Edited 2013-08-24 00:01:34]


Non French in France
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 29, posted (8 months 3 hours ago) and read 57188 times:

Yes I noticed it too. Not sure what to think about it. Given the assembly status of MSN2 (it's already one month in station 30), I expect it to fly before the end of the year. However, we don't know how much cabin work there has to be done after assembly. Maybe it will spend some time in station 20 for cabin finishing/testing. I don't know.


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineangmoh From Singapore, joined Nov 2011, 448 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (8 months 3 hours ago) and read 57149 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 29):

Yes I noticed it too. Not sure what to think about it. Given the assembly status of MSN2 (it's already one month in station 30), I expect it to fly before the end of the year. However, we don't know how much cabin work there has to be done after assembly. Maybe it will spend some time in station 20 for cabin finishing/testing. I don't know.

I am suspecting that there is a difference between "First Flight" and "Flight Testing" - 2 different terms are used on both slides. It would not be surprising to me if "Flight Testing" includes all formal testing, and considering MSN2 is the cabin tester, a lot of the formal cabin tests could be done on the ground before first flight.


User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2792 posts, RR: 59
Reply 31, posted (8 months 3 hours ago) and read 57144 times:

Quoting angmoh (Reply 30):
I am suspecting that there is a difference between "First Flight" and "Flight Testing" - 2 different terms are used on both slides. It would not be surprising to me if "Flight Testing" includes all formal testing, and considering MSN2 is the cabin tester, a lot of the formal cabin tests could be done on the ground before first flight.

It is a good observation, only problem is that it goes in the wrong direction. Evrards slide says F/T ie when the frame gets in the hands of the test deparment and Chapmans slide (which is from that deparment) says that first flight is earlier, now there is now one flying a flight test aircraft outside the flight test department   .



Non French in France
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 32, posted (8 months ago) and read 56987 times:

MSN3 at station 18 in the beginning of August.

http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff510/alexcheban/album/229_Airbus/airbus_09.jpg

http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff510/alexcheban/album/229_Airbus/airbus_22.jpg

Source http://alexcheban.livejournal.com/152096.html



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineaviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 581 posts, RR: 8
Reply 33, posted (7 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 56629 times:

Looking at evrard slide it shows msn1 ff in july
So he's got some margins for sure and should be aware that ff could occure sooner
So evrard slides have for me a lower value than chapman...
He's doing pr
A350 wise i learn more on range on the finnair order slides than on leahy's


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 34, posted (7 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 56263 times:

Wonder if MSN3 also have some margin than, maybe it will fly a bit sooner.

Quoting aviaponcho (Reply 33):
A350 wise i learn more on range on the finnair order slides

You meant SAS instead of Finnair? Or do you have some slides which I haven't seen before?  



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2792 posts, RR: 59
Reply 35, posted (7 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 55462 times:

As the aircraft, engines and main systems all seem to perform without major problems (in fact it seems to go very well  ) the focus now can turn to the business part of the frame, the cabin and all it's systems.

There is an excellent article in the APEX blog on all the work around the A350 cabin to make sure it is going to function correctly:

A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 13 (by jetblueguy22 Aug 15 2013 in Civil Aviation)

Here some interesting excerpts:

"Airbus will soon carry out partial maturity and integration testing of the inflight entertainment systems for the A350 XWB, using the same cabin demonstrator which recently completed the type’s first ‘virtual flight’ in Hamburg.

The simulator, known as Cabin Zero, will be used “in the near future” to put part of the A350’s IFE system through its paces, after which “the fully-representative IFE system will be tested with passengers on A350 MSN002 and later with MSN005”, says Airbus."

" Airbus last month used Cabin Zero – a complete A350-900 cabin, minus the centre section – to carry out a five-hour simulated flight in which two pilots, eight cabin crew and 129 passengers took part in all the phases of a real flight, from boarding to disembarking.

More than 4,000 components were tested during the virtual flight and the overall performance was “above the expectations”, says Airbus test director for the exercise, Florian Kayser.

“The CVFF [cabin virtual first flight] was a great success for the Airbus A350 XWB development and test programme, especially so in terms of cabin function, system performance and overall cabin operation, given that some systems, equipment or cabin modules are still in development,” adds Kayser."

Airbus says that if it decides to carry out more virtual flights, either the same demonstrator or MSN002 will be used.

“Airbus will be performing the ‘early long flights’ with MSN002, where the full IFE will be tested with the cabin full of passengers, and later another flight with full passengers on MSN005,” says Airbus head of aircraft interiors marketing Zuzana Hrnkova. “There will also be route proving on normal airline-like operations lasting some weeks on normal routes.

“In parallel, there will be the overall cabin integration and test programme and the head of version testing using the Cabin Zero V&V [verification and validation] platform and functional system integration benches. This will validate new software versions and hardware iterations and configurations in parallel with the actual flight testing.”


So we once again see this strive to check out as much as possible before the flight tests begin, something that was not done e.g. on the A380. On the day of the A350 first flight one of the A380 test pilots admitted "there was not a lot that functioned system wise on the A380 in the beginning of the flight test program" concluding that a test aircraft is no effective integration platform, it is a verification platform   . It seems Airbus has learned this lesson well.

[Edited 2013-08-26 09:36:20]


Non French in France
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 36, posted (7 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 55344 times:

So where can we apply for the MSN2 flight(s), I assume Airbus will use volunteers? I know they did it with the A380.

[Edited 2013-08-26 09:58:17]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2792 posts, RR: 59
Reply 37, posted (7 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 55074 times:

Sorry about the link in my post about the APEX blog, this should be the correct one:

http://blog.apex.aero/cabin-interior...y-successful-cabin-virtual-flight/



Non French in France
User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 8643 posts, RR: 75
Reply 38, posted (7 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 55057 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 35):
Airbus last month used Cabin Zero – a complete A350-900 cabin, minus the centre section – to carry out a five-hour simulated flight in which two pilots, eight cabin crew and 129 passengers took part in all the phases of a real flight, from boarding to disembarking.

They were CX crew back in late July. The simulated flight was from Tenerife to Hamburg including a normal meal service heated in the galley.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlinebigsmile From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 161 posts, RR: 3
Reply 39, posted (7 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 54371 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 36):
So where can we apply for the MSN2 flight(s), I assume Airbus will use volunteers? I know they did it with the A380.

With A380 it was Airbus Employees only, selected via a prize draw for those that were interested. It will be the same for A350.


User currently offlineairmagnac From Germany, joined Apr 2012, 276 posts, RR: 43
Reply 40, posted (7 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 53657 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 35):
So we once again see this strive to check out as much as possible before the flight tests begin, something that was not done e.g. on the A380

I may have to suggest a slight re-wording of that  

There has always been a strive to check out as much as possible before the flight tests begin, with the "as much as possible" being defined by the available time for simulator tests, and the available simulation technologies (wind tunnels, wooden mock-ups, labs etc... up to computer simulations)
"As much as possible" was usually sufficient, until the turn of the century. At that point, after the digital revolution, the internal complexity of systems increased by an order of magnitude (due to increased use of CAD tools), and each system relied more on sophisticated software than ever before. More importantly the amount of data exchanges between systems increased exponentially. This is because all information from all systems is now in a single universal format ('0's and '1's), it is independant of the physical system layer, and can be routed via electrical or optical lines which are very small, flexible and light (so you can easily add several different routes). And also because the necessary technology, knowledge and hardware had become available and fairly cheap outside of the aerospace industry (for example, the AFDX protocol is based on Ethernet). So basically, exchanging data became really easy, much easier than ever before.

All this meant a huge increase in testing worload, and a significant change in the items to be tested. The traditional ways of working were simply not sufficient for this.

So I wouldn't really say that there was no strive to check out as much as possible for the A380, because they actually did ; I'd rather say that the gap between "as much as possible" and "what is required" had become way too big.
To reduce that gap, the A350 program used new tools, new simulators, new testing strategy and tighter links between design, manufacture and test.



One "oh shit" can erase a thousand "attaboys".
User currently offlineairmagnac From Germany, joined Apr 2012, 276 posts, RR: 43
Reply 41, posted (7 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 53608 times:

Quoting bigsmile (Reply 39):
With A380 it was Airbus Employees only, selected via a prize draw for those that were interested. It will be the same for A350.

it was the same for CVFF, also open to interns and maybe temp staff (if any of you want to apply for an intership before the MSN2 flights...   )

Sadly I wasn't accepted   , but maybe for the real flights ?         



One "oh shit" can erase a thousand "attaboys".
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 42, posted (7 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 53566 times:

Quoting bigsmile (Reply 39):
With A380 it was Airbus Employees only, selected via a prize draw for those that were interested. It will be the same for A350.

Thanks, one could only hope.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2792 posts, RR: 59
Reply 43, posted (7 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 53395 times:

Quoting airmagnac (Reply 40):
I may have to suggest a slight re-wording of that

Thanks Airmagnac for chipping in and putting things in perspective, somehow one get the feeling that the revised strategy has worked. We don't have access to the test results but we see MSN001 taking of every day when they had planned to (it seems at least) and those days when it is not flying there is evidently a lot of test stuff going on and off. Today we saw new aero test means once again (tufting) that most likely wasn't there Saturday so probably went on when she wasn't flying Sunday and Monday.

The regularity of the test flights with MSN001 is impressive as are the activities in the other test benches.

[Edited 2013-08-27 13:04:57]


Non French in France
User currently offlineairmagnac From Germany, joined Apr 2012, 276 posts, RR: 43
Reply 44, posted (7 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 53338 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 43):
one get the feeling that the revised strategy has worked

A lot of work, a lot of stress, a lot of pressure on a lot of people, and still a long way to go and many things that could be done a lot better.
But on the whole, yes, it does seem to be paying off pretty well   



One "oh shit" can erase a thousand "attaboys".
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2792 posts, RR: 59
Reply 45, posted (7 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 52901 times:

There is even more about the Cabin 0 "flight" and the CX crew in the A350 blog, this is a transcript of this article:

http://www.ausbt.com.au/airbus-a350-makes-its-first-virtual-flight

and here a photo of the Crew in front of Cabin 0:




Non French in France
User currently offlineStTim From UK - England, joined Aug 2013, 463 posts, RR: 0
Reply 46, posted (7 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 52037 times:

I must say I was hoping activity around TLS would have been much higher as MSN0003 and MSN0002 move through the line.

MSN0003 must now be close to paint shop?


- must learn how to type accurately.

[Edited 2013-08-29 00:28:11]

User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 47, posted (7 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 52013 times:

There isn't much to as long as they're inside a hangar.

[Edited 2013-08-29 00:31:23]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 48, posted (7 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 51308 times:

Earlier this week, Airbus successfully installed the cabin crew area on MSN2.


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 49, posted (7 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 50877 times:

And here is MSN2:

http://www.airbus.com/fileadmin/media_gallery/photogallery/big/800x600_1377873131_PP_01.jpg



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4593 posts, RR: 38
Reply 50, posted (7 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 50539 times:
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Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 48):
Earlier this week, Airbus successfully installed the cabin crew area on MSN2.

Great to here that news.  


User currently offlineBogi From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 51, posted (7 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 50076 times:



Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 49):
And here is MSN2:
http://www.airbus.com/presscentre/pressroom/high-res-photos

[Edited 2013-08-31 06:34:57]

User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 52, posted (7 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 50291 times:

That's a Lufthansa A380..


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2792 posts, RR: 59
Reply 53, posted (7 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 49842 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 49):
And here is MSN2:

What one can nicely see is the grey fin (for customer logos?) and the SAT communications antenna, wonder which supplier they will use for the coms area:

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm262/ferpe_bucket/30082013MSN002inS30finandsatantenna_zpsd7bcf208.jpg



Non French in France
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 54, posted (7 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 49412 times:

Here are a few more pictures of MSN2. Unfortunately they are not high-res.







[Edited 2013-09-01 02:26:54]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineaviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 581 posts, RR: 8
Reply 55, posted (7 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 48750 times:

Hello Ferpe : Grey fin = Special livery coming in ... (source Helimax).

And As I understand it's a corporate special one


User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2792 posts, RR: 59
Reply 56, posted (7 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 48260 times:

Quoting aviaponcho (Reply 55):
Grey fin = Special livery coming in ... (source Helimax).

And As I understand it's a corporate special one

Well grey as a base has to do with a certain launch customer doesn't it 



Non French in France
User currently offlinestarbucks From Netherlands, joined Feb 2013, 595 posts, RR: 5
Reply 57, posted (7 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 48091 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 56):
Well grey as a base has to do with a certain launch customer doesn't it

Could be that indeed, but as Aviaponcho says "corporate special" I'm thinking something with Airbus Group which will start forming from Jan. 2014... MSN2 should fly somewhere in Jan 2014



A350 logbook: http://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AlVgPnmHLOovdFdzbVlyQzhYNDhCb1VFN1RkYXkwV3c&output=html
User currently offlineaviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 581 posts, RR: 8
Reply 58, posted (7 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 48070 times:

Usually the tail comes in fully painted...
So, why not a special one ? There might be some Qatar's livery element, if it's a patchwork of customers...


User currently offlineknoxibus From France, joined Aug 2007, 251 posts, RR: 23
Reply 59, posted (7 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 47786 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

The tailfin is already painted with the special livery (you will have to wait a while for it).

What was done is to cover it with this special greyish/white paint that can very easily be peeled off.



No matter what anybody tells you, words and ideas can change the world.
User currently offlinestarbucks From Netherlands, joined Feb 2013, 595 posts, RR: 5
Reply 60, posted (7 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 47730 times:

Quoting knoxibus (Reply 59):
(you will have to wait a while for it).

This I hate...   At least 3 more months of waiting left I guess, or will it fly with the grey covers??  



A350 logbook: http://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AlVgPnmHLOovdFdzbVlyQzhYNDhCb1VFN1RkYXkwV3c&output=html
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 61, posted (7 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 47692 times:

Quoting knoxibus (Reply 59):
What was done is to cover it with this special greyish/white paint that can very easily be peeled off.

Thanks, I had a suspicion that it looks like some sort of cover.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineaviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 581 posts, RR: 8
Reply 62, posted (7 months 3 weeks ago) and read 47613 times:

Thanks Knoxibus !
Can we ask if it's a "corporate livery" or a patchwork of customer ?

It will be fine to have something like that

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi.../5/5d/TGV_Rame_4402_20070514_b.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5d/TGV_Rame_4402_20070514_b.jpg

[Edited 2013-09-02 05:13:36]

User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 63, posted (7 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 46689 times:

The A350 blog claims MSN3 will be painted next week.


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently onlineAircellist From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 1630 posts, RR: 8
Reply 64, posted (7 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 46566 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 63):
The A350 blog claims MSN3 will be painted next week.

Any guesses on the time between roll-out from paint shop to first flight?


User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2792 posts, RR: 59
Reply 65, posted (7 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 46298 times:

Quoting Aircellist (Reply 64):
Any guesses on the time between roll-out from paint shop to first flight?

It is in the article, MSN003 is expected to fly end of Sept.



Non French in France
User currently offlineknoxibus From France, joined Aug 2007, 251 posts, RR: 23
Reply 66, posted (7 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 45546 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Brand new set of wings have arrived in TLS it seems.


No matter what anybody tells you, words and ideas can change the world.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 67, posted (7 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 45576 times:

Must be the wings for MSN5. Wings arrive ~ 1 month in advance because they need preparation.

http://oi42.tinypic.com/25qggmx.jpg

[Edited 2013-09-05 06:55:15]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2792 posts, RR: 59
Reply 68, posted (7 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 45534 times:

Quoting knoxibus (Reply 66):
Brand new set of wings have arrived in TLS it seems.

Must then be for MSN004, it should be entering S40 around this time (actually earlier according to the time schedule but I think we have had a delay into S50).



Non French in France
User currently offlineaviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 581 posts, RR: 8
Reply 69, posted (7 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 45481 times:

Ferpe I've got MSN4 in S40 since 19/08
Don't know if i'm right


User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2792 posts, RR: 59
Reply 70, posted (7 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 45352 times:

Quoting aviaponcho (Reply 69):
Ferpe I've got MSN4 in S40 since 19/08
Don't know if i'm right

I think that was a rumor that was not verified, all I have seen was that MSN004 was almost a month late into S50 and would be entering S40 sometime early Sept so it could be the wings for MSN004 but could of course also be fore MSN005. We will have to poke more into where MSN004 is right now and "to whom belong a set of wings" which arrived on the goods acceptance dock this morning, "says A350 on the packaging"      .

[Edited 2013-09-05 08:20:58]


Non French in France
User currently offlineaviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 581 posts, RR: 8
Reply 71, posted (7 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 45311 times:

For sure ...

I'll check my sources


User currently offlinestarbucks From Netherlands, joined Feb 2013, 595 posts, RR: 5
Reply 72, posted (7 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 44769 times:

Interesting video released by Airbus on Youtube...

Fabrice Bregier talking about his first flight on the A350
He calls it "Still quite week" could we expect MSN1 to fly many times in the coming months??  

> They tested APU behavior throughout the flight envelope at low and high speeds/altitude
> Long question answered.. yes there are lavatories..   and proably coffeemakers
> When possible, fly-by at all of the Airbus facilities
> MSN3 flying probably in October
> First production aircraft for Qatar in Final Assembly Line before the end of this year
> Exact quote: "And we have also to work very hard on the NEXT member of the family which is the -1000" so no word on the -800

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHE85AzhcNM&feature=em-uploademail



A350 logbook: http://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AlVgPnmHLOovdFdzbVlyQzhYNDhCb1VFN1RkYXkwV3c&output=html
User currently offlineaviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 581 posts, RR: 8
Reply 73, posted (7 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 44702 times:

Hum hum
I've read some twitts this week suggesting that aeroflot was rethinking its order (not cancelling, but adjusting variant choice... i think)

So we'd have to wait for the A350-800 ?


User currently offlineSpeedbored From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2013, 173 posts, RR: 0
Reply 74, posted (7 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 44689 times:

Quoting starbucks (Reply 72):
"Still quite week"

He actually said "Still a quiet week".

I'd be very surprised if he would ever call the A350 "quite weak". That means something very different.  Smile

[Edited 2013-09-06 08:53:02]

User currently offlineap305 From India, joined Jan 2000, 507 posts, RR: 0
Reply 75, posted (7 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 44610 times:

For me, key words from that video- "so far so good"

User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 76, posted (7 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 44421 times:

Quoting starbucks (Reply 72):
Long question answered.. yes there are lavatories..

So they didn't use the escape hatch for ...  

Quoting starbucks (Reply 72):
When possible, fly-by at all of the Airbus facilities

MSN1 will also visit RR in the UK.

Quoting starbucks (Reply 72):
First production aircraft for Qatar in Final Assembly Line before the end of this year

Excellent news, this also means the long-awaited ramp-up to 1 frame per month.

BTW MSN8 will be the first A350 for SQ (no idea about MSN7).

Quoting starbucks (Reply 72):
Exact quote: "And we have also to work very hard on the NEXT member of the family which is the -1000" so no word on the -800

Some months ago, a rumor was spread on poncho's forum. The person behind the rumor claimed that the -800 has been pushed back. I still believe that makes sense.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 77, posted (7 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 44516 times:

And it still amazes me what a relaxed person Fabrice is. Sunglasses, hands on his back, no tie, sitting there as a regular guy.

http://oi40.tinypic.com/24xj4w0.jpg

http://oi44.tinypic.com/2922tqf.jpg

http://oi40.tinypic.com/vrealj.jpg



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2792 posts, RR: 59
Reply 78, posted (7 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 44437 times:

He seems to be a person which is very much on top of his game, confident, relaxed yet knowledable and very approachable. He has also had a very good start as Airbus CEO, not in the least due to a great performance by John Lehay. There were those who said they were respecting each other but were not great friends, John was rather Toms guy. I think that has changed, there is nothing more comforting for a CEO then when the sales numbers click, it is amazing that John can still motivate him-selves to this hard work and I am sure Fabrice is very happy John stayed on.


Non French in France
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 79, posted (7 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 44436 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 78):
John was rather Toms guy. I think that has changed

Well, John also seems more relaxed since Tom left for EADS.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 78):
it is amazing that John can still motivate him-selves to this hard work and I am sure Fabrice is very happy John stayed on.

By reading this article, John will likely continue to work until his body decides to stop functioning.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 80, posted (7 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 44324 times:

Quoting aviaponcho (Reply 73):
I've read some twitts this week suggesting that aeroflot was rethinking its order (not cancelling, but adjusting variant choice... i think)

Here's the article:

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...mending-a350-order-details-390120/



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently onlinetortugamon From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 3211 posts, RR: 10
Reply 81, posted (7 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 44285 times:

Quoting aviaponcho (Reply 73):
I've read some twitts this week suggesting that aeroflot was rethinking its order (not cancelling, but adjusting variant choice... i think)
So we'd have to wait for the A350-800 ?

I assume most people think Aeroflot will take A359s instead? They still have 12 77Ws on order so I am not sure if A351s make sense unless they cancel their 77Ws. Do most people think that they will still shoot for 2017 EIS for the 351 and then 2018 for the A358?

If this entire Aeroflot order (18) flips to the A359 I have to think that there is more of a change afoot then just pushing back to 2018 and doing some optimization. Wouldn't SU, 8U, QR, and PG still want some of their order despite the delay if they were going to get a better aircraft? When the 351 had a two year delay there weren't that many cancellations (EY is the only one that comes to mind) which makes me think something else is going on.

I have heard the company line that it derisks the program and larger models are more profitable. I could just be a conspiracy theorist but I think its more than that. We will see.


tortugamon


User currently offlineSpeedbored From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2013, 173 posts, RR: 0
Reply 82, posted (7 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 43968 times:

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 81):
I have heard the company line that it derisks the program and larger models are more profitable. I could just be a conspiracy theorist but I think its more than that. We will see.

I agree that it could be nothing but it's a lot more fun speculating about the possibility that something more interesting might be afoot.  

I can't help wondering whether Airbus might have been looking at whether or not they will be able to ramp up production fast enough to cope with the high demand that there appears to be for the 350 at the moment. I can certainly see that there might be a possibility that they are planning to quietly shelve the 358 (at least for a while) and then, with a few performance tweaks and price incentives, persuade people who need a smaller aircraft, to look at the 330 instead. Keeping the 330 line churning out frames while the 350 line ramps up to 10+ per month, might be a better way for Airbus to match supply to demand, and to prevent potential customers from looking 'elsewhere'.

Yes, I know that there will be missions where a 330 will not be able to do what a 358 would, but there are a whole load more missions where it can. If Airbus get the performance tweaks and pricing right, then airlines will buy them, especially if they can also get them sooner. After all, despite what a lot of people around here seem to think, purchasing decisions are not only based on how fuel efficient a frame is.

[Edited 2013-09-07 01:43:41]

User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2792 posts, RR: 59
Reply 83, posted (7 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 43699 times:

There is a good article by Jens Flottau in AW that gives info about the test lfight program but also some hints about the A350 program in general:

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....l/AW_09_09_2013_p40-612710.xml&p=2

Here the interesting part re the A350 program:

"MSN003, the second A350, due to make its first flight in October, is mainly tasked with the performance and engine testing. Autoland and landing performance trials are set to commence following the freeze (of the aero ie slat/flap movements etc , my comment). The first realistic figures on fuel burn will become available in that phase, too."

So the first usable fuel burn figures will be available end of this year, we can be sure however Airbus know to within the last few % what they will get already now.

"As of last week, the aircraft had logged more than 150 flight hours and was flying almost daily. This amount of test hours is at the upper limit of expectations, according to Airbus officials."

"Airbus plans to use a fleet of four aircraft to achieve certification by the middle of 2014. Overall, 2,500 flight hours will have been devoted to the test program. Qatar Airways will be the first airline to take delivery of an A350, likely in third-quarter 2014."

This read like they are getting confident on two accounts:

- There will be no major hick-ups in the flight test program, at least what they can see now. The base aircraft with systems is functioning well and they should have a pretty good feeling re the cabin via Cabin 0 tests.

- The timeplan of 1 year for flight tests and certification seems plausible and that EIS would hold as Q3 2014. We also know from the "Fabrice flying the A350" video that MSN006, the first production frame for Qatar will enter FAL end of this year. FAL entry to first flight should be about 6 months then (MSN002 takes 7 months and MSN005 takes 6-7 months ) so this all supports Q3 delivery of first A350.   

[Edited 2013-09-07 05:49:17]


Non French in France
User currently offlinestarbucks From Netherlands, joined Feb 2013, 595 posts, RR: 5
Reply 84, posted (7 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 43656 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 83):
Airbus plans to use a fleet of four aircraft to achieve certification by the middle of 2014.

This is interesting... Typo or is flying progressing so well that 4 aircraft will be enough?? 



A350 logbook: http://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AlVgPnmHLOovdFdzbVlyQzhYNDhCb1VFN1RkYXkwV3c&output=html
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 85, posted (7 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 43647 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 83):
- There will be no major hick-ups in the flight test program, at least what they can see now. The base aircraft with systems is functioning well and they should have a pretty good feeling for re the cabin via Cabin 0 tests.

Assembly of the first 5 prototypes, flight testing and certification seems to be on track. The real challenge will be the production ramp-up, which is very important. MSN7 and 8 should follow shortly after MSN6, time will learn us if the supply chain can meet the demand (and keep an eye on the next financial report of Spirit, it will reveal the ship-sets for the last quarter).

[Edited 2013-09-07 05:41:34]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineSpeedbored From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2013, 173 posts, RR: 0
Reply 86, posted (7 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 43622 times:

Quoting starbucks (Reply 84):
This is interesting... Typo or is flying progressing so well that 4 aircraft will be enough??

Could it be that one of the 5 test frames will be used for route proving rather than certification?


User currently offlinestarbucks From Netherlands, joined Feb 2013, 595 posts, RR: 5
Reply 87, posted (7 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 43656 times:

Quoting Speedbored (Reply 86):
Could it be that one of the 5 test frames will be used for route proving rather than certification?

That would be MSN5, but that one also has ETOPS certification behind her name...

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm262/ferpe_bucket/PASbreifing35015ChapmanwithannotationaboutMSN002and004_zps30d894bf.jpg

Don't know what has changed since this slide, but here all 5 prototypes have the green "certification" bar..

[Edited 2013-09-07 05:47:37]


A350 logbook: http://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AlVgPnmHLOovdFdzbVlyQzhYNDhCb1VFN1RkYXkwV3c&output=html
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2792 posts, RR: 59
Reply 88, posted (7 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 43639 times:

I think it is a slip, Jens was speaking to the Airbus test flight department, could it be that MSN005 is handeled by some other department (delivery ? ) and that they therefore not count her in their detailed planning?


Non French in France
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 89, posted (7 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 43607 times:

It must be a slip, or he did meant something else. Anyway, the last aircraft won't do much test flying. Here's are the A380 flying hours:

http://oi44.tinypic.com/mrwojb.jpg

> A380 MSN1 = A350 MSN1
> A380 MSN2 = A350 MSN2
> A380 MSN3 = A350 MSN3
> A380 MSN7 = A350 MSN5
> A380 MSN9 = A350 MSN4



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 90, posted (7 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 43298 times:

About the A350-800, we have finally an answer why Airbus keeps saying the -1000 is the next project:

http://twitter.com/FlightDKM/status/376379291434778624

Quote:
No change in schedule, apparently. Bregier referring to next major work effort because -1000 differs substantially from -800/900.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently onlinetortugamon From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 3211 posts, RR: 10
Reply 91, posted (7 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 42435 times:

Quoting Speedbored (Reply 82):
I can certainly see that there might be a possibility that they are planning to quietly shelve the 358 (at least for a while)

It will be interesting to watch what comes next. I don't think I have heard an Airbus executive say anything nice about the A358 in multiple years and in a couple A350 presentations they have not even mentioned it at all. It does appear that if they are going to keep it they certainly are not pushing it.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 90):
Quote:
No change in schedule, apparently. Bregier referring to next major work effort because -1000 differs substantially from -800/900

DKM is obviously a great source and this could be the official Airbus line for the moment. Bregier's quote coupled with the chief engineer saying that the A351 would be the next to fly is just too much coincidence for me though. I am relatively confident that if the A359 certification goes as planned that they could get the A358 into production/certification in 2015/2016 and it could be that they are moving customers to the A359 to hedge risk and they are waiting to see how the A359 certification goes before they make their final decision. Their actions and their words pretty seem to be pointing in different directions.

tortugamon


User currently offlineTheRedBaron From Mexico, joined Mar 2005, 2158 posts, RR: 8
Reply 92, posted (7 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 42250 times:

Quoting Speedbored (Reply 82):
I agree that it could be nothing but it's a lot more fun speculating about the possibility that something more interesting might be afoot.  

I can't help wondering whether Airbus might have been looking at whether or not they will be able to ramp up production fast enough to cope with the high demand that there appears to be for the 350 at the moment. I can certainly see that there might be a possibility that they are planning to quietly shelve the 358 (at least for a while) and then, with a few performance tweaks and price incentives, persuade people who need a smaller aircraft, to look at the 330 instead. Keeping the 330 line churning out frames while the 350 line ramps up to 10+ per month, might be a better way for Airbus to match supply to demand, and to prevent potential customers from looking 'elsewhere'.

Yes, I know that there will be missions where a 330 will not be able to do what a 358 would, but there are a whole load more missions where it can. If Airbus get the performance tweaks and pricing right, then airlines will buy them, especially if they can also get them sooner. After all, despite what a lot of people around here seem to think, purchasing decisions are not only based on how fuel efficient a frame is.

This is the post of the week ...I agree 100%.

I bet Airbus will offer a very attractive A330 and continue to the A351 asap, that will give a serious advantage over the 777x project.

TRB



The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
User currently offlineBoeingVista From Australia, joined Jan 2009, 1466 posts, RR: 2
Reply 93, posted (7 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 41725 times:

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 91):
DKM is obviously a great source and this could be the official Airbus line for the moment. Bregier's quote coupled with the chief engineer saying that the A351 would be the next to fly is just too much coincidence for me though.

Nope, if the -1000 is to be moved up there are long lead time items that would have to be being produced now including engines and they simply are not.



BV
User currently onlinetortugamon From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 3211 posts, RR: 10
Reply 94, posted (7 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 41676 times:

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 93):

I am not saying that the A351 will be moved up.

tortugamon


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 95, posted (7 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 41309 times:

The A350-900 will EIS next year, and the first A350-1000 should fly for the first time in 2016. So if Airbus continues with the -800 as we know it today, they'll have a time window of 2 years to certify the airframe. Being a shrink, the A350-800 requires only 6 months of flight testing and certification, thus it would fit in nicely between the -900 and -1000.

[Edited 2013-09-09 03:33:44]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently onlinetortugamon From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 3211 posts, RR: 10
Reply 96, posted (7 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 41227 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 95):

Three first flights over four years would be impressive even if the NEO wasn't it the picture. Looking forward to seeing it come together.

tortugamon


User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4593 posts, RR: 38
Reply 97, posted (7 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 41234 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 96):
Three first flights over four years would be impressive even if the NEO wasn't it the picture.

Yes it is.  .

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 96):
Looking forward to seeing it come together.

I am with you on that one, as are many other aviation enthusiasts.  .

[Edited 2013-09-09 03:59:14]

User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 98, posted (7 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 40812 times:

I'm frankly surprised that anyone thinks that the A358 will be the next cab off the rank?

Airbus started not with the smallest variant but with the 'middle' one, the A359. Common sense says that (rightly in my opinion) they considered from the outset that the B788 was a horse that had largely bolted, and are producing the A359 first, as the best answer to the 789 and the 787/10. And that their next step will be the A3510, in order to compete with the 'looming' upgraded B777?

There's no doubt in my mind that that has been their intention from the start - otherwise they'd have started with the A358, not the '9'? They are basically in a position where they have to compete with two different aeroplanes - B787 and B777 - with a single basic design. And the 788 is already a runaway success, in terms of achieved sales; there is relatively little chance of any A358 'catching up' from here?

In any case, the mere fact that the A358 has only attracted 90-odd orders (in fact, 'stuck' at 89 orders for about the past year), against satisfactory numbers for both the larger A350 variants, strongly suggests that Airbus haven't been offering any early delivery dates?

Common sense says that Airbus should give priority to competing, in terms of sales, with the Boeing designs that have yet to enter service - the B789/10 and the 'next generation' B777? That surely means pressing on ASAP with the A359 and the A3510?

Arguably Airbus were a bit slow to recognise the threat posed by both the larger versions of the 787, and the likelihood that Boeing would plan to further upgrade the 777? But, in my view, they're doing exactly the right things now?

[Edited 2013-09-09 08:45:30]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 29690 posts, RR: 84
Reply 99, posted (7 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 40814 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 98):
In any case, the mere fact that the A358 has only attracted 90-odd orders, against satisfactory numbers for both the larger A350 variants, strongly suggests that Airbus haven't been offering any early delivery dates?

Airbus offered them, but no customer was interested.

The delay to 2016 was not for technical reasons, but lack of customer interest per Airbus management statements. And with QR now converting their A350-800 orders to larger variants, that could push EIS back even farther depending on when the remaining customers are interested in taking first delivery.


User currently offlinesassiciai From UK - Scotland, joined Jan 2013, 300 posts, RR: 0
Reply 100, posted (7 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 40692 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 98):
User currently offlineNAV20

What sort of keyboard do you have? All your sentences end with a question mark!

It is quite disconcerting, especially when I disagree with your posts (which is most of the time LOL)

Cant you make a statement from time to time? Without "?"!


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 101, posted (7 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 40734 times:

The article is now available on Flightglobal, re-confirming that the A350-800 is the next family member to fly.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...ond-a350-to-fly-in-october-390309/

Quote:
Airbus is due to introduce the smaller -800 before the -1000 and insist that Bregier's reference to "next" relates to development work for the -1000, which will involve broader changes to the basic -900 design - including wing and powerplant modification - than the simple -800 shrink.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 102, posted (7 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 41000 times:

Quoting sassiciai (Reply 100):
What sort of keyboard do you have?
Quoting sassiciai (Reply 100):
Cant you make a statement from time to time?

Not sure exactly what you mean about question-marks, sassicuai...........  

Thanks for the new information, KarelXWB. Guess I was just plain wrong. Mind you, I think Airbus are as well; the A358 shows every sign of being a 'non-starter.'

[Edited 2013-09-09 09:06:42]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineStTim From UK - England, joined Aug 2013, 463 posts, RR: 0
Reply 103, posted (7 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 40865 times:

Tweeted today

David KaminskiMorrow ‏@FlightDKM 4m

#A350 MSN4 has undergone fuselage join on final assembly line #airbus

[Edited 2013-09-09 09:53:29]

User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 104, posted (7 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 40814 times:

Quoting knoxibus (Reply 66):
Brand new set of wings have arrived in TLS it seems.
Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 67):
Must be the wings for MSN5.
Quoting ferpe (Reply 68):
Must then be for MSN004

The wings were indeed for MSN4. An upper wing cover for MSN5 was spotted in Hamburg today.


A350 part by XFW-Spotter, on Flickr

[Edited 2013-09-09 09:50:40]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineBigsmile From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 161 posts, RR: 3
Reply 105, posted (7 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 40714 times:

MSN005 is currently in Broughton, due in Bremen in next few weeks  

That would most likely be Upper Wing Cover for MSN007 or 008.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 29690 posts, RR: 84
Reply 106, posted (7 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 40626 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 101):
The article is now available on Flightglobal, re-confirming that the A350-800 is the next family member to fly.
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 102):
Thanks for the new information, KarelXWB. Guess I was just plain wrong. Mind you, I think Airbus are as well; the A358 shows every sign of being a 'non-starter.'

Ar worse, putting the A350-800 into service as a straight-shrink is making lemonade from lemons. I mean it's not like Airbus really had a choice, here.

There are Airbus A330-200 operators who, for whatever reasons, cannot make an A350-900 work effectively as a replacement. If Airbus doesn't give them the A350-800, they will have no choice, but to buy the 787-8 because the A330-200 just is not going to be able to cut it should fuel prices rise sharply again.

The development and certification costs will be minimal so even with a few score worth of deliveries from the current customers is all they get, they should still more than cover their costs. But I expect they will get more than that for even if an A330-200 operator doesn't need the extra 30 seats or the extra 1400nm of range, the claimed 23% fuel burn savings per seat will be enough to get them to buy it.


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 107, posted (7 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 40554 times:

Quoting Bigsmile (Reply 105):
MSN005 is currently in Broughton, due in Bremen in next few weeks  

That would most likely be Upper Wing Cover for MSN007 or 008.

Thanks Bigsmile. This means the wings should arrive in station 40 by mid-November, about 1 month after FAL start of MSN5. Seems like MSN5 is on track.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently onlineBaconButty From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2013, 131 posts, RR: 0
Reply 108, posted (7 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 40412 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 99):
Airbus offered them, but no customer was interested.

When Airbus had the early slots you refer to on offer Airlines did order the -800. It's later that the orders dried up/were converted.

Speaking generally though, reading here (especially the - embarrassing in retrospect - older discussions on how the -1000 was a "non-starter") you'd sometimes think that the OEMs built their variants on separate lines with distinct supply chains. To state the obvious, the -800 competes for a finite number of slots with the other two (higher margin) variants. Targeted replacement waves come in to this as well - the A350 missed the 767/A300 wave.

But all the analysis I've seen shows the -800 straight shrink to be surprisingly competitive with the 788/9 that bracket it in spite of the greater range and wider cross section. I don't think it will be built - I think compressed schedules, risk to the -1000, and market demand for the larger variants will force Airbus to move it back. There's been enough talk from Analysts who have had airlines tell them that Airbus has been pressuring them to switch to the -900, but I do expect an optimised shrink to be built after the -1000. We'll see.



You could do with some brown sauce on that.
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 11932 posts, RR: 25
Reply 109, posted (7 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 39998 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 106):
Ar worse, putting the A350-800 into service as a straight-shrink is making lemonade from lemons. I mean it's not like Airbus really had a choice, here.
Quoting Stitch (Reply 106):
But I expect they will get more than that for even if an A330-200 operator doesn't need the extra 30 seats or the extra 1400nm of range, the claimed 23% fuel burn savings per seat will be enough to get them to buy it.

I kind of like lemonade!  

From what we've been hearing it seems Airbus will not have a problem getting the A350-800 to EIS and I personally don't doubt that. Add onto that the qualities that you point out that the customers will benefit from, and it seems there will be a lot of momentum towards shipping the A350-800 sooner rather than later.

I understand that the A350 assembly line is constrained, but one of the major ideas behind getting to do a whole new aircraft is to incorporate ways to make the airframe cheaper to assemble, and so one can imagine that A350-800s should be pretty profitable to Airbus, far more profitable than letting the customer go to Boeing!  
Quoting BaconButty (Reply 108):
When Airbus had the early slots you refer to on offer Airlines did order the -800.

To play devil's advocate, it is a well-known scheme to put deposits on the least expensive member of the family and only move them to the most expensive when your contract makes you decide.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2792 posts, RR: 59
Reply 110, posted (7 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 39470 times:

The A350 flight tests are going well, both as to what we can see (it flies when it is not being refitted for tests) but also according tot the Airbus managment. Marwan Lahoud is one of the top 5 figures, here is what he said yesterday at a industry day in France:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...9/10/us-eads-idUSBRE9890J920130910

A350 ON TRACK
Lahoud said testing for the latest Airbus passenger jet, the A350, was going well.

"There have been no new problems on the A350. The flight tests are going according to plan. We are getting on with the program and we are confident of meeting our goals for certification and first delivery."

This on top of Enders saying "It is going very, very well" and Bregier "So far so good", I think we have enough evidence that their stop and fix strategy has worked well. There is always the risk of unknown unknowns so one should hedge the bets  .



Non French in France
User currently offlineap305 From India, joined Jan 2000, 507 posts, RR: 0
Reply 111, posted (7 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 38709 times:

A detailed update in this article about present progress

http://www.aviationbusiness.com.au/n...b-test-program-remains-on-schedule

"MSN003 – which is identical to MSN1 and will be the next to fly in the coming weeks – has completed its outdoor ground tests including fuel and pressurization and has now been fitted with its two Trent XWB engines. MSN003, which will be used for the cold and hot weather campaigns, is thus one step closer to its maiden flight"


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 112, posted (7 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 38631 times:

MSN3 outdoor ground tests were completed by mid-August, before going back to the C63 hangar for engine attachment. That's almost a month ago.


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineRuscoe From Australia, joined Aug 1999, 1518 posts, RR: 2
Reply 113, posted (7 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 38628 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 110):
This on top of Enders saying "It is going very, very well"

Ultimately the success or otherwise of the 350 program, will depend upon its performance and that Airbus can sell it with sufficient margin, not how well the testing is going.

I have seen enough evidence to convince me that the engines are on track, but what about the performance of the airframe?

Do we have any information on that?

Any statements I have seen can be interpreted as not referring to the airframe itself, although I fully admit to not seeing many.

It may be just too early to give any meaningfull assessement of the airframe.

Ruscoe


User currently offlineap305 From India, joined Jan 2000, 507 posts, RR: 0
Reply 114, posted (7 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 38579 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 112):
MSN3 outdoor ground tests were completed by mid-August, before going back to the C63 hangar for engine attachment. That's almost a month ago.

So I guess it's in the paint shop now


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 115, posted (7 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 38577 times:

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 113):
I have seen enough evidence to convince me that the engines are on track, but what about the performance of the airframe?

We should hear more about the airframe performance after the aero configuration has been frozen.

Quoting ap305 (Reply 114):
So I guess it's in the paint shop now

The A350 blog claims that MSN3 should be in paint this week.

[Edited 2013-09-11 06:44:45]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineBigsmile From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 161 posts, RR: 3
Reply 116, posted (7 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 38396 times:

Quoting ap305 (Reply 114):
So I guess it's in the paint shop now

Should have gone in today for Paint, with planned handover to the Flight Test Department when it comes out next week.


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 117, posted (7 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 38330 times:

Won't be long before we have two A350s in the air. Exciting days.


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2792 posts, RR: 59
Reply 118, posted (7 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 38379 times:

Quoting Bigsmile (Reply 116):
Should have gone in today for Paint, with planned handover to the Flight Test Department when it comes out next week.

Thanks Bigsmile, if the flight test department gets it hands on it next week it should fly end of Sept as planned. Guess Bregier was sandbagging a bit with "in October".

The article that ap305 was referencing was not that bad, here a bit more:

"• MSN002, the first A350 be fitted with a full cabin interior, is also progressing: After completion of structural activities and successful electrical power-on, the aircraft was recently transferred to ‘Station 30’ at the Final Assembly Line (FAL) for indoor ground testing. Subsequently, the first cabin monuments such as crew rests and galleys are being installed during September, before testing outdoors.
• MSN004 recently underwent join-up of its three main fuselage sections at ‘Station 50’ in the FAL. This stage follows the successive delivery of the three fuselage sections between beginning and mid-August. Next steps include the assembly of the wings as well as of the horizontal and vertical tail plane.
• MSN005 – the second A350 development aircraft to be fitted with a cabin interior will enter the Airbus Final Assembly hall in the coming weeks."

Seems this status reports is about a week or two old, nice that MSN005 pieces shoud be arriving by now in TLS, time to get your spotter net going Karel. Next to go is the first frame for Qatar, then time to change the name of the thread to "A350 Prototype AND Production Thread part 14" 



Non French in France
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 119, posted (7 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 38335 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 118):
Guess Bregier was sandbagging a bit with "in October".

It's always good to have some room. If MSN3 slips from September 30 to October 1, people will say "it's delayed" while the opposite is always good "it's ahead of schedule" even when you and me know that a few days slip is not a big deal.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineBoeingVista From Australia, joined Jan 2009, 1466 posts, RR: 2
Reply 120, posted (7 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 38313 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 118):
Next steps include the assembly of the wings as well as of the horizontal and vertical tail plane.

I think that should read attachment not assembly, the wings and stabs for MSN004 are completed and already at the FAL.



BV
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2792 posts, RR: 59
Reply 121, posted (7 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 38362 times:

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 113):
I have seen enough evidence to convince me that the engines are on track, but what about the performance of the airframe?

Do we have any information on that?

We have one answer to Scott Hamilton by a Airbus spokesperson that performance is meeting spec, you can find the quote up-thread. More than that we don't have but you can read more about Marwan Lahouds statements this week in a gathering in Pau at the A350 blog, here one excerp where I have corrected a part which was wrongly translated from the original article in La tribune:

http://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-...t-comme-une-lettre-a-la-poste.html

A350 blog:http://www.bloga350.blogspot.fr/2013/09/a350-xwb-tests-go-like-clockwork.html

"During a certification test campaign of a new aircraft, the aircraft flies but also spends time on the ground to be modified and updated”, he explained."This utilization rate has never been reached before on another plane. Everything works correctly", he said, but Airbus remains" extremely careful: everyday you can fall on a bone ".

I don't think Lahoud would say "Everything works correctly" if they did not have confirmation that the performance is on spec as the spokeperson also stated. They have done preliminary checks of performance, they now want to confirm that with a correctly frozen aero and during focused runs with MSN003.



Non French in France
User currently offlinebobmuc From Germany, joined Nov 2011, 313 posts, RR: 0
Reply 122, posted (7 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 38055 times:

Quoting Bigsmile (Reply 116):
Should have gone in today for Paint, with planned handover to the Flight Test Department when it comes out next week.

My    are clearly going for a FF of MSN03 well into the last full week of September.
They were able to do the fly-by in Le Bourget, and doing nearly double daily test flights with MSN01. They are well on track.

=> MSN03 out of the paint shop by Tuesday or Wednesday next week latest
=> hand-over to the flight test department
=> one week or less for preparation and ground testing by the test crew
=> FF at Sept. 25th, +/- 1 day

But we'll see!


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 123, posted (7 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 37474 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 118):
The article that ap305 was referencing was not that bad, here a bit more:

And here's the source of that article:

http://www.airbus.com/no_cache/newse...-are-preparing-to-join-the-flight/



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 124, posted (7 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 36019 times:

Another set of elevators have been delivered.

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BURFWfACQAAgm6g.jpg:large

http://twitter.com/Airbus/status/379504521178660865/photo/1



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinebobmuc From Germany, joined Nov 2011, 313 posts, RR: 0
Reply 125, posted (7 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 35025 times:

MSN003 is now in the paint hangar since one week, or has somebody spotted it outside in Toulouse?

Will we see the standard Airbus painting or anything special?


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 126, posted (7 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 34968 times:

Should be the same livery as MSN1.


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2792 posts, RR: 59
Reply 127, posted (7 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 35353 times:

The only one which seems to have some livery stuff up the sleeve is MSN004 which will be flying after new year, it has it's fin livery covered in easily removed gray paint. Now what happens at EADS/Airbus after 1 Jan??  Wow!


Non French in France
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 128, posted (7 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 35357 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 127):
MSN004

Nope, it's MSN2  



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 129, posted (7 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 34676 times:

The internet is flooded with pictures of the A330 assembly process, except for station 20: those are scarce. I found this picture of an A330 in station 20, this is how future A350s will look like during the last phase of cabin outfitting:

http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff510/alexcheban/album/229_Airbus/airbus_13.jpg

Source http://alexcheban.livejournal.com/152096.html



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 130, posted (7 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 33987 times:

Now the question is: where is MSN3? knoxibus? bigsmile?


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineap305 From India, joined Jan 2000, 507 posts, RR: 0
Reply 131, posted (7 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 33622 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 130):
Now the question is: where is MSN3? knoxibus? bigsmile?

Yes, MSN1 took just 6 days... I guess we could see her today or tomorrow.

[Edited 2013-09-19 18:13:13]

[Edited 2013-09-19 18:13:58]

User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 132, posted (7 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 33302 times:

The Beluga with registration F-GSTD just departed to Bremen, carrying the port wing for MSN5.

http://oi40.tinypic.com/vzjyo5.jpg



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinebobmuc From Germany, joined Nov 2011, 313 posts, RR: 0
Reply 133, posted (7 months 2 hours ago) and read 32406 times:

Hello all,

a new video from Airbus: http://videos.airbus.com/video/ea7f56ee5dfs.html

Airbus’ A350 XWB is unifying “one family” of the company’s international teams, which combine their unique skills and experiences to shape the next generation of air travel with this aircraft.

Some nice pictures from the different production locations.


User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4593 posts, RR: 38
Reply 134, posted (6 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 31933 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting bobmuc (Reply 133):
Some nice pictures from the different production locations.

Indeed. Thanks for sharing.  


User currently offlinej22 From Sweden, joined Jan 2012, 9 posts, RR: 0
Reply 135, posted (6 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 31617 times:

Hi All,

If you are willing to dig there is some nice pictures of the A350 and its related IT infrastructure in today's morning keynote at Oracle Open World. It should become available for free later today search for the Keynote on demand "Transforming Businesses with Big Data and Analytics" at the oracle website

I will try to give the exact timing later today

Regards

[Edited 2013-09-23 09:13:32]

User currently offlinej22 From Sweden, joined Jan 2012, 9 posts, RR: 0
Reply 136, posted (6 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 30846 times:

The video showing the A350XWB is here, and starts to be interesting at the 20:50 mark.

Regards


User currently offlineUnflug From Germany, joined Jan 2012, 394 posts, RR: 2
Reply 137, posted (6 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 30592 times:

Quoting j22 (Reply 136):
The video showing the A350XWB is here, and starts to be interesting at the 20:50 mark.

Regards

Thanks for that link! Interesting how better and faster data analysis helps to speed up testing.


User currently offlinekmz From Germany, joined Feb 2008, 158 posts, RR: 2
Reply 138, posted (6 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 30261 times:

Quoting j22 (Reply 136):
The video showing the A350XWB is here

Mark Hurd is talking about 100.000 data sensors per aircraft (23:12 mark)...I have difficulties believing this. Fabrice talks about 600.000 'data', here he probably means signal IDs?


User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2792 posts, RR: 59
Reply 139, posted (6 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 29979 times:

In the test thread there is a link to the Airbus global market forecast gathering in London today. At 27 minutes and 33:50 Lehay says the flight test program for the A350 is going very well and that the aircraft is performing to spec:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSrKZ...view&list=UUkfZz95mfqPnzquatVpDTsQ

This is in concert with the other signs we has seen. It probably mean that the first aircrats will come in on at least contract guarantee spec level even though they are overweight but might also mean they meet advertised spec (not always the same thing  ). There is a good rule of thumb that a ULH frame looses about 0.5% of efficiency for every tonne of overweight (my model confirms this), with 3 tonnes of overweight for the early frames as the rumor suggests that would mean the engines and aero should beat spec with at least 1.5% on a total level. Zeke has indicated the engines alone could be 2% better on TSFC so it seems plausible.

It means the target must now go from being one of the few airplane programs that hit spec on EIS to be one like the 777-300ER to beat spec with several % at launch. This is a tough challenge as the -300ER was a derivative and I don't know if the -200 met spec at model EIS.



Non French in France
User currently offlineap305 From India, joined Jan 2000, 507 posts, RR: 0
Reply 140, posted (6 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 29919 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 139):
In the test thread there is a link to the Airbus global market forecast gathering in London today. At 27 minutes and 33:50 Lehay says the flight test program for the A350 is going very well and that the aircraft is performing to spec

I was the one that linked to the video and its only at the 27 minute mark that there is talk of the a350. At 33:50 its just Mr Leahy's travel plans  Silly . Ferpe, i seriously doubt they can exceed the target by a large margin. This program( and the 787) is already pushing the frontiers of efficiency and they have probably squeezed every bit of performance that they can. the fact that it seems to be meeting spec itself is a big victory for Airbus.

[Edited 2013-09-24 13:58:17]

User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2792 posts, RR: 59
Reply 141, posted (6 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 29046 times:

The A350-1000 engine is making progress, here a status report:

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....d_09_26_2013_p01-01-620502.xml&p=1

The engine has passed RR internal Critical Design Review and now goes into a RR+Airbus Critical Design Review. After that parts start to be manufactured.

The engine promises higher thrust with the same TSFC and the same time on wing. The key enabler for that is a more advanced high pressure turbine which is shroudless with active tip clearance control for the first in a RR engine. Here a good excerp what this means in development checks that it all works as planned:

"Baseline development engine ESN20001 has begun runs of XWB-97 development materials and tip clearance control systems. Tests will evaluate new shroudless HP turbine blades and seal segments. “So we are trying to prove that when the turbine runs into the ceramic seal it will last forever, even though it has had a rub,” says Young.

A second run early in 2014 will include tests of a “full standard of shroudless turbine with tip clearance and cooling,” he adds."

First 97k prototype run summer 2014 then:

"The engine is scheduled to be flight-tested on the Airbus A380 flying testbed at the end of 2015, and will power the A350-1000 for its maiden flight in 2016. Entry-into-service is targeted for mid-2017. Meanwhile, the XWB-84 version continues in flight test on the A350-900 prototype, which it has powered without incident since the first flight on June 14."

[Edited 2013-09-26 04:49:55]


Non French in France
User currently offlinerheinwaldner From Switzerland, joined Jan 2008, 2198 posts, RR: 5
Reply 142, posted (6 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 28638 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 139):
It means the target must now go from being one of the few airplane programs that hit spec on EIS

I think the exception have been those that didn't hit spec at EIS.
E.g. I don't think there is a single Airbus model, that did not hit spec at EIS. There have been cross atlantic shockwaves when e.g. the A310 did beat spec spectacularly.


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 143, posted (6 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 28273 times:

Now David from Flightglobal confirmed the roll out of MSN3.

http://twitter.com/FlightDKM/status/383270489327558656

Quote:
It is indeed painted and parked outside, and will be flying shortly.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineairmagnac From Germany, joined Apr 2012, 276 posts, RR: 43
Reply 144, posted (6 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 28164 times:

Quoting kmz (Reply 138):
Mark Hurd is talking about 100.000 data sensors per aircraft (23:12 mark)...I have difficulties believing this

There are a lot of sensors indeed, what with all the proximity sensors on all the various valves and doors, the temperature sensors, flow measurements etc... but I would guess that number is about an order of magnitude too high

Quoting kmz (Reply 138):
Fabrice talks about 600.000 'data', here he probably means signal IDs?

Probably, and I actually think that's slightly low, but that depends on how Fab defines "data"
In any case, as Mr Hurd says, it's "big", and thatt's just the aircraft itself. Add in all the flight test instrumentation, the dozens of real-time simulators, the gazillion numeric simulations...For sure, saving, processing and most of all, distributing all this data in the proper format to the proper people at the proper time is definitely a challenge.



One "oh shit" can erase a thousand "attaboys".
User currently offlineA380900 From France, joined Dec 2003, 1091 posts, RR: 1
Reply 145, posted (6 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 27395 times:

So can we see a pic of the second plane somewhere?  

User currently offlinestarbucks From Netherlands, joined Feb 2013, 595 posts, RR: 5
Reply 146, posted (6 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 27357 times:

Quoting A380900 (Reply 145):
So can we see a pic of the second plane somewhere?

Not yet unfortunately, it seems every spotter has missed it until now...



A350 logbook: http://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AlVgPnmHLOovdFdzbVlyQzhYNDhCb1VFN1RkYXkwV3c&output=html
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 147, posted (6 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 27342 times:

And unfortunately Airbus hasn't released a picture yet.


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2792 posts, RR: 59
Reply 148, posted (6 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 27116 times:

This might be the reason for MSN003 hiding, the new tail logo:

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm262/ferpe_bucket/MSN003tail_zps63dcfc92.jpg

Was announced as a rendering on twitter today.

Edit: I realize there is nothing new, why then launch it like that on twitter? Nothing happening?

[Edited 2013-09-27 06:34:42]


Non French in France
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 149, posted (6 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 27066 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 148):
Edit: I realize there is nothing new, why then launch it like that on twitter? Nothing happening?

Airbus did it before on September 18: http://twitter.com/Airbus/status/380291233907625984

Nothing special.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinestarbucks From Netherlands, joined Feb 2013, 595 posts, RR: 5
Reply 150, posted (6 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 27026 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 149):
Nothing special.

Wouldn't call it "nothing special" I can't do it... :P

But indeed they are "just" artist expressions of the A350...



A350 logbook: http://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AlVgPnmHLOovdFdzbVlyQzhYNDhCb1VFN1RkYXkwV3c&output=html
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 151, posted (6 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 27006 times:

Quoting starbucks (Reply 150):
Wouldn't call it "nothing special" I can't do it... :P

  Oops, I meant not relevant for this production thread.

Hope I not get lynched by artist Brian Grimwood   



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2792 posts, RR: 59
Reply 152, posted (6 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 27180 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 151):
Oops, I meant not relevant for this production thread.

Absolutely, the reason I jumped the gun was that it is pretty certain now that the tail of MSN002 is carrying the new Airbus group logo, I interpreted the text of this tweet as they giving a peek preview now  



Non French in France
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2792 posts, RR: 59
Reply 153, posted (6 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 26717 times:

Tortugamon had this post in the flight test thread, I would like to move the dicsussion here as it is mainly about the production ramp up and delivery of the first EIS aircraft to Qatar:


"I thought the current Airbus line on A350 EIS was 2h 2014. For some reason I took that to mean around July/August next year. JL has a quote in this Bloomberg interview where he says that the A350 will finish flight testing around 'this time next year' and EIS by 'end of 2014'. Nothing earth shattering as it is still '2h' but I had envisioned the plan to be to deliver half dozen or so next year and that may not be likely.

http://www.bloomberg.com/video/boein...-years-MaZXa7l2S0uBhyDpQxFJoQ.html
"

So here my comments:

- it is clear the flight testing is going well. That is not the same as the flight test program going well, MNS003 should have flown end of Sept, it migh still do but I doubt it. That is at max a tiny delay. MSN004 parts into body join however was about a month late if not more, it will be very interesting to follow the completion and first flight of the rest of the test aircrafts.

- Lehay is very defensive when A will deliver the first aircraft, he says end of 2014 despite him saying that the flight test campaign will be finished "about this time next year". First this is a later finish of flight testing than Bregier and Evrard has said some months ago, they said flight testing will take 12 month, see presented schedule below when they said this and we know by now that flight testing is not going worse then planned, rather the opposite:

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm262/ferpe_bucket/flighttestprogram_zps1611e5fd.jpg

Secondly with the flight test goings so well, why does it take 17-18 months from first flight to EIS then, the plan shows it comes a month after completed flight test?

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm262/ferpe_bucket/PASbreifing35015ChapmanwithannotationaboutMSN002and004_zps30d894bf.jpg

So things are going "very, very well" yet A is starting to back pedal?  

All this points to the production system still being a major challenge for Airbus. They have by now fully accepted that stop and fix is the best way to solve problems, the flight tests is a major vindication of this program management principle. Applying that consequently on the ramp problems that A still are facing will delay the delivery of the first aircraft, for the follow on then to be delivered earlier then if A did it the classical way, forcing the parts through the system with work out of sequence.

So Lehay have been told to keep the ball flat, Airbus will focus 100% on optimizing the total ramp, not first EIS. They have such confidence in their program management method by now that they can get everyone to accept that this is the way to do things, development, sales and most likely even the customers. This is the new way to develop complex products, "stop and fix"    and it will result in delayed first deliveries but what is delivered then is a solid product on a solid production ramp.

That Airbus does all to deliver a solid product is evident, they are running the flight test program like a scheduled airline operation in order to find out where the bottle necks are and what subsystems gives the trouble, this was once again pointed out by Lehay (first told at the Le Bourget briefing).

[Edited 2013-09-27 12:55:55]


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User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 154, posted (6 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 26701 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 153):
- it is clear the flight testing is going well. That is not the same as the flight test program going well, MNS003 should have flown end of Sept, it migh still do but I doubt it. That is at max a tiny delay. MSN004 parts into body join however was about a month late if not more, it will be very interesting to follow the completion and first flight of the rest of the test aircrafts.

Airbus schedule shows it should fly in the beginning of October. Also MSN4 was in body join by mid-August which is not late according to the same schedule.

http://oi40.tinypic.com/1213fc8.jpg



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2792 posts, RR: 59
Reply 155, posted (6 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 26614 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 154):
Also MSN4 was in body join by mid-August which is not late according to the same schedule

I complemented my post with this schedule as well. You are right, MSN003 was shown to start flying early October. In the German forum that you moderate your source for the mid August body join has pointed out that this was false information. The P50 join was in fact not done mid August but the first days of September. But we are focusing on the wrong points, the flight test program in yours and mine posts shows that the flight test program takes 13 months from first flight, ie it ends in mid July 2014 when things go normally well, then the other chart says EIS follows a month or so after that.

Things are not going normally well, they are going "very, very well" (Enders, Lahoud, Lehay) yet still we shall plan for a 15 month flight test program followed by a 3 month EIS period, why this change when things are really humming? This is the key point to discuss  

[Edited 2013-09-27 13:14:39]


Non French in France
User currently onlinetortugamon From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 3211 posts, RR: 10
Reply 156, posted (6 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 26536 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 153):

I have to think that an EIS of the first quarter of 2015 and a solid ramp up with little travelling work outside of the first dozen or so would be viewed as a success. It would still be the quickest between first flight and EIS of the last three other clean sheet programs (I am including my early opinion on the CSeries). If given the option between delayed by a relatively clean ramp up and the alternative, I think most OEM's would take the first option. If you ask people on the street they have already factored 2015 in anyway.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 155):
why this change when things are really humming?

Some might say that JL did not mean to say by the end of the year (I think he is deliberate) or he is lowering expectations (maybe). He could just be trying to build in extra time to reduce pressure.

Other random thoughts:
>Do we think that Spirit has its act together by now?
>Could this have to do with interior/cabin testing as it looks like they are in the middle of FAL on MSN2 so they may becoming top of mind at this moment and interiors were clearly a sticking point on the A380 (I know they are now offering less options now and hopefully that will fix it).
>Have flight testing standards changed that haven't been factored in? Certification is getting tougher and tougher and after the 787 I could see the A350 getting put through more vendor-testing and having less reliance on any company-provided testing.

Flight testing could be going excellent while still having a problem with any of these meaning that the dialogue is consistent. These are all just guesses; feel free to shoot them down fellas  

tortugamon


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 157, posted (6 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 26552 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 155):
I complemented my post with this schedule as well. You are right, MSN003 was shown to start flying early October.

I looked for the origin of the September schedule, apparently it was the A350 blog who claimed this. But Airbus schedule always showed first flight in the beginning of October, even Brégier said so. MSN3 rolled out in paint so I assume it is now undergoing APU and engine runs and is still on track.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 155):
ie it ends in mid July 2014 when things to normally well, then the other chart says EIS follows a month or so after that.

But the other chart also says "on track for EIS in second half 2014". I don't think anything has changed (yet).

Flight testing should end in mid-July 2014 but you need to add another month for the paper work with the EASA. So this means mid-August 2014. Next you need at least another month to prepare the first delivery, so that's mid-September 2014. I however think this is too optimistic, first delivery of MSN6 will likely happen in October or even November 2014. Why? Because delivering a new aircraft is another complex procedure and don't forget we're dealing with Qatar here. And perhaps there is some rework to do. Plus, MSN6 will not roll out before May or June 2014 meaning Airbus won't have much time to prepare this frame for a delivery.

As for the "end of the year", some people use this to refer to the fourth quarter of the year (different interpretations). So a delivery in October means delivery in Q4 which also means delivery at the end of the year.

[Edited 2013-09-27 14:00:51]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineAviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 581 posts, RR: 8
Reply 158, posted (6 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 26436 times:

For the first airline, delivery and eis can be a month or more apart
They (Qatar) need time to train pilots, cabin and ground crew
So first revenue flight (what eis is for me) is trailing certification by a couple of dozen days....


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 159, posted (6 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 26392 times:

Quoting Aviaponcho (Reply 158):
For the first airline, delivery and eis can be a month or more apart

Delivery can happen around one month after EASA certification. The 787 was certified on August 26, 2011 and the first delivery was on September 25, one month later. For the A350, this could give us:

> Mid-July 2014: end flight testing
> Mid-August 2014: EASA certification
> Mid-September 2014: MSN6 delivery

However, MSN6 will probably not roll out before May or June 2014 which means a delivery in September will most likely not happen (not enough time for preparation). Boeing on the other hand had the first delivery frame (ZA101) months before certification in preparation.

[Edited 2013-09-27 14:31:29]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 160, posted (6 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 26468 times:

And here's MSN3, registered F-WZGG.

http://oi41.tinypic.com/2q03n5w.jpg

Source http://www.bloga350.blogspot.nl/2013...nd-flight-test-prototype-msn3.html



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 161, posted (6 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 26324 times:

There's a nice picture of MSN1 in the database:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © AlphaSierra - Roma Spotters Club




Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineSpeedbored From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2013, 173 posts, RR: 0
Reply 162, posted (6 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 25717 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 160):
And here's MSN3, registered F-WZGG.

Am I seeing things or does MSN3 have a tail-skid attached as well?

Why would that be? I thought they were planning the VMU tests with MSN1.


User currently offlineStTim From UK - England, joined Aug 2013, 463 posts, RR: 0
Reply 163, posted (6 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 25651 times:

It does look like it. Maybe it is just redundancy - in case there are issues with MSN0001.

User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 164, posted (6 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 25664 times:

MSN3 is identical to MSN1, Airbus can swap the aircraft in case they need to. Hence the tail skid.


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinetransaeroyyz From Canada, joined Dec 2010, 147 posts, RR: 0
Reply 165, posted (6 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 25551 times:

Do I see 12 pitot tubes, is this a new upgraded airspeed monitoring system, looks prety fail safe, and are they ever gonna lose the eyeliner and reveal its natuaral beauty?

User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 166, posted (6 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 25540 times:

Quoting transaeroyyz (Reply 165):
and are they ever gonna lose the eyeliner and reveal its natuaral beauty?

Guess we won't find out until MSN6 is in paint.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently onlinetortugamon From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 3211 posts, RR: 10
Reply 167, posted (6 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 25244 times:

Quoting transaeroyyz (Reply 165):

I wonder if some of those pitots are a result of the new nose cone shape and different aeros.

tortugamon


User currently onlineAircellist From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 1630 posts, RR: 8
Reply 168, posted (6 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 24737 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 160):

Interesting side-by-side view of the tails of an aircraft and its predecessors. The VTP is more inclined backwards, more "pointed" (narrower at the top) and has much less of a curve towards the fuselage at the bottom, whereas the HTP seems to have a much more curved junction to the fuselage. The plate at the base of the A330 HTP seems to have disappeared (or it may be my poor eyesight, if it's painted). The fuselage end cone has an interesting look with that taper on all sides, and it seems to taper much more quickly than the older one.

Again, the wing-to-body aft fairing is really fascinating. And the windows are much larger!

Thanks for posting!


User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2792 posts, RR: 59
Reply 169, posted (6 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 23451 times:

Quoting Aircellist (Reply 168):
The VTP is more inclined backwards, more "pointed" (narrower at the top) and has much less of a curve towards the fuselage at the bottom, whereas the HTP seems to have a much more curved junction to the fuselage. The plate at the base of the A330 HTP seems to have disappeared (or it may be my poor eyesight, if it's painted). The fuselage end cone has an interesting look with that taper on all sides, and it seems to taper much more quickly than the older one.

I made the same observation, it is a very nice photo, we should have had them lined up like 330, 340 and 350 however  Wow!  . Well you can't get everything. Re the differences, the surfaces of the A350 is more inclined as it is designed for a higher cruise Mach, the angle is more like 32° then the 300/330/340 generations of 30° for a cruise Mach of 0.82. The fitting of the fin (European word for VTP  ) is trough daggers going down into the fuselage and being secured there (same as 787) rather then this lug and bolt method from the A300 series days:



The lugs and bolts need to be covered by the fairing, not ideal aerodynamically.

[Edited 2013-09-30 04:48:31]


Non French in France
User currently offlineairmagnac From Germany, joined Apr 2012, 276 posts, RR: 43
Reply 170, posted (6 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 23373 times:

Quoting transaeroyyz (Reply 165):
Do I see 12 pitot tubes, is this a new upgraded airspeed monitoring system, looks prety fail safe, and are they ever gonna lose the eyeliner and reveal its natuaral beauty?

Not all are pitot tubes
See Probes On Nose Of A350XWB (by hivue May 14 2013 in Tech Ops)
The A380 had already received a completly overhauled air data system, the A350 system is based on that (with a few changes here and there)



One "oh shit" can erase a thousand "attaboys".
User currently offlineteme82 From Finland, joined Mar 2007, 1401 posts, RR: 0
Reply 171, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 22875 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Just out of curiosity. Who is the first European airline to operate A350?


Flying high and low