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US Removes Passenger Over Service Dog  
User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2798 posts, RR: 4
Posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 12236 times:
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Kind of a strange story. Apparently a Vietnam vet was traveling with his service dog out of Atlanta on US. The airline wanted the dog at his feet, but the dog was sitting in a seat. He got a little heated and I think that is what eventually lead to his removal from the flight. Now I don't know the airline policy on service dogs. But does it really matter if the dog is in a seat or on the floor as long as the seat was empty? The gentleman could have handled the situation better for sure. What do you think?
http://www.wfsb.com/story/23351668/v...teran-kicked-off-us-airways-flight
Pat


You push down on that yoke, the houses get bigger, you pull back on the yoke, the houses get bigger- Ken Foltz
45 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineitrade From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 12212 times:

US is still reeling from the "service pig" that it had to deal with about 10 or 12 years ago.

[Edited 2013-09-05 14:52:14]

User currently offlinemesaflyguy From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 3127 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 12093 times:
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Quoting itrade (Reply 1):
US is still reeling from the "service pig" that it had to deal with about 10 or 12 years ago.

Don't know what that has t do with anything, but okay....

The man definitely could have handled the situatio better, but I'm not sure what happened prior to the camer being turned on. You never know how the crew may have handled it to anger the man. I'm not making excuses for anybody, just looing at this objetively.

By the way, this was a one-class aircraft it appears. Does US Airways fly CRJ-200s into AT because I can't find any on the schedule.



\________(---)________/ :) World's most beautiful aircraft: 757-200, MD-88/90, E-190, A321
User currently offlineTigerguy From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 943 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 12087 times:

Just a little heated? I think somebody forgot to take their chill pill that morning. Going only on what I saw and heard, I'd say that the dog should be on the floor. Yelling things will sink your case just about every time.

Also, this news link http://www.azfamily.com/news/Veteran...service-dog-dispute-222453611.html says it was a PHX-ELP flight operated by SkyWest.



Flying friendly for a while, but is that a widget I see in the rear-view mirror?
User currently offlineitrade From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 12071 times:

Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 2):
Don't know what that has t do with anything, but okay....

US had an unfortunate incident a number of years ago involving another service animal - a 300 lb pig to be precise.

There was extended debate over whether pigs should fly; the decision was made to allow the pig to fly. That was a decision that US wound up very much regretting.

Thus, the relationship between service animals and US brings back memories of days past....


User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11655 posts, RR: 60
Reply 5, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 11998 times:

Quoting itrade (Reply 4):
US had an unfortunate incident a number of years ago involving another service animal - a 300 lb pig to be precise.

It is one of the funniest incidents I have read about. US let a 300lb pig fly in First Class.


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineVC10BOAC From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 402 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 11968 times:

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 5):
It is one of the funniest incidents I have read about. US let a 300lb pig fly in First Class.

I think you made that story up. I'll believe it when pigs fly  


User currently offlineitrade From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 11954 times:

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 5):
It is one of the funniest incidents I have read about. US let a 300lb pig fly in First Class.

Yah, I forgot about that detail. Yes, it was in first class.....


User currently offlineazstar From United States of America, joined May 2005, 620 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 11957 times:

U S Airways contract of carriage, as most other airlines, require large service animals to remain on the floor in front of the passengers seat. It is probably not safe for the dog to remain in a seat since it can't be strapped in properly for take off and landing. In this situation, it appears U S Airways was correct and the passenger was completely unreasonable, IMO.

User currently offlineroseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9637 posts, RR: 52
Reply 9, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 11889 times:

Service animals must remain under the seat for taxi, takeoff and landing. They are not strapped in, and are as dangerous as any other carry on item in the event of severe turbulence or accident.

I feel sorry for the gentleman who does not understand, but those are the FAA rules. His dog could hurt someone including him if there is turbulence or an evacuation since seats and seatbelts are only designed for people. Having a dog under the seat is compliant with ADA guidelines.

That doesn’t look like a pleasant situation for anyone. The Flight Attendant did a good job handling the situation with composure.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11655 posts, RR: 60
Reply 10, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 11847 times:

Quoting VC10BOAC (Reply 6):
I think you made that story up. I'll believe it when pigs fly

There's a paradox there!  
Quoting itrade (Reply 7):
Yah, I forgot about that detail.

I think US rather wanted to do that too  


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5641 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 11744 times:

Quoting roseflyer (Reply 9):

That doesn’t look like a pleasant situation for anyone. The Flight Attendant did a good job handling the situation with composure.

The red shirt in the video was the CRO. They have pretty good training in dealing with situations like these.

Also, US paid for his hotel that night and he flew out the next morning.


As a personal opinion, I do find it highly offensive that he tried to use the military trump card to be "excused" from any disruptive behavior or rule violations.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineusflyer msp From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2124 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 11601 times:

The Service Animal situation is my greatest peeve about flying in the US. Between arrogant disabled people who think that the world should revolve around them because they have a service animal to people who fake having service animals because they are too cheap to pay for a cabin pets (exactly what service does your Poodle perform for you?), I feel this section of the ACAA needs to be rewritten and have clearer certification and behvaiour guidelines and enact harsh penalties for the fake service animal people (can you tell I really hate them!)

User currently offlinedeltacto From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 444 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 11562 times:

Quoting itrade (Reply 4):
US had an unfortunate incident a number of years ago involving another service animal - a 300 lb pig to be precise.
When Pigs Fly, They Fly US Airways In First Class! (by SINGH4US Oct 30 2000 in Civil Aviation)

When Pigs Fly....they Go First Class (by LoneStarMike Oct 27 2000 in Civil Aviation)


http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=95217&page=1


User currently offlineaerdingus From Ireland, joined Dec 2006, 2835 posts, RR: 15
Reply 14, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 11528 times:

At my airline the dog has to go on the floor. Although there was an incident were one crew made the dog sit on the seat, to which the disabled person got upset...

As for that pig story...do I even want to read it?!   



Cabin crew blog http://dolefuldolegirl.blogspot.ie/
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7174 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 11494 times:

There is a classmate of mine in law school who I don't know how got her dog certified as a "service animal" for "emotional support" or something like this. She has no obvious problems, she loves her dog and takes it all over but almost never has it at school. Closer friends of her know she does not have a problem and just does this so she can take the dog to stadiums and on flights etc.. Must be nice.

I am in no way saying this man abuses the system. He has a disability. All I am saying are there are people abusing this system and no matter who they are they at least need to follow the rules.

US/skywest made the right move here.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlinedenverdanny From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 263 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 11444 times:

The other issue is his use of foul language. Watching the video, there are little kids. He totally disregarded that. You can see a parent get up in the video to take their kid away, probably so the kid doesn't get upset and start crying, or hear the foul language. He was completely unreasonable. But, it does seem from the beginning of the video that he may not have understood the issue. I hope it was explained he COULD have his dog, just that his dog had to be on the floor. Someone should have clarified and reiterated that to him until he got it, and I hope they did. He made things worse too by not getting up and leaving. He wanted a scene.

If I had been there as a passenger, I would have explained things to him and called him out. My parents were like this growing up, and I had to deal with stuff like this. I'm not afraid of him. Sometimes you just have to get through to them.

[Edited 2013-09-05 17:12:08]

User currently offlinemesaflyguy From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 3127 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 11349 times:
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Quoting Tigerguy (Reply 3):
Also, this news link http://www.azfamily.com/news/Veteran...service-dog-dispute-222453611.html says it was a PHX-ELP flight operated by SkyWest.

That makes much more sense.

Quoting roseflyer (Reply 9):
I feel sorry for the gentleman who does not understand, but those are the FAA rules. His dog could hurt someone including him if there is turbulence or an evacuation since seats and seatbelts are only designed for people. Having a dog under the seat is compliant with ADA guidelines.

Any sorriness I felt for the man went out the window when he started yelling profanity and being very non-compliant with the crew. Also, the personal attack against the pilot didn't help much either.

[Edited 2013-09-05 17:39:53]


\________(---)________/ :) World's most beautiful aircraft: 757-200, MD-88/90, E-190, A321
User currently offlineapfpilot From United States of America, joined Jun 2013, 292 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 11157 times:

Quoting azstar (Reply 8):
U S Airways contract of carriage, as most other airlines, require large service animals to remain on the floor in front of the passengers seat. It is probably not safe for the dog to remain in a seat since it can't be strapped in properly for take off and landing. In this situation, it appears U S Airways was correct and the passenger was completely unreasonable, IMO.

Could you point that part of their C of C for me? http://www.usairways.com/en-US/resou...boutus/US_contract_of_carriage.pdf

Quoting roseflyer (Reply 9):
I feel sorry for the gentleman who does not understand, but those are the FAA rules. His dog could hurt someone including him if there is turbulence or an evacuation since seats and seatbelts are only designed for people.

Where is that in the FAA rules? http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/rules/382short.pdf

The thing about seat belts poor reasoning since lap children are still allowed.



Opinions are my own and do not reflect an endorsement or position of my employer.
User currently offlineCopter808 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1088 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 11041 times:

Some questions and observations...

Do we know that it was a service animal? Or do we just assume that from the actor's behavior and whatever he may have told the staff.

The CRO did a great job and never raised his voice. Something all too rare in todays society.

The cockpit crew would likely have done better to stay out of sight of the actor. Their body language certainly didn't help the matter.

I don't know if this was intentional or just coincidental, but there was a "break in contact" for several minutes between the actor and staff. Although it didn't seem to help in this case, it often serves to calm the situation down by allowing the actor to comply without appearing to "back down". Any possible empathy I may have had for the actor went out the door at this point! Apparently he felt he had to continue the confrontation.

And lastly... The dog behaved very well.


User currently offlineLAXtoATL From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 1594 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 11003 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 15):
There is a classmate of mine in law school who I don't know how got her dog certified as a "service animal" for "emotional support" or something like this.

Although often confused, there is a difference between a 'service animal' and an 'emotional support animal'.
A service animal is a trained animal that provides a specific duty (ie guide dog for blind, seizure alert, etc).
A service animal earns its status because of the animal.
An emotional support animal is a pet. This animal only has a designated status because of the owner's status. A medical professional determines that a person can function normally in society with the use of a companion pet where they couldn't without.

Clearly, there is a lot of abuse with 'emotional support animals'. So much so that there is now a registry to get 'service animal' credentials for your emotional support animal. Which of course is bogus as by definition an emotional support animal is not a service animal. Ive seen a pax get irate because they presented their emotional support animal as a service animal. When asked 'what service does the animal provide', they went semi-ballistic saying 'you aren't allowed to ask me that'. Which she would have been correct if she presented the animal as an emotional support animal as you are not allowed to ask questions as long as a person has the appropriate medical documentation. This is a medical privacy issue. However, a dog has no right to privacy and if it is a service animal it is very appropriate to ask what service the animal provides to determine if it is actually a 'service animal'. In this case it was not a service animal and the rep had every right to make that determination (since it was of course not a service animal - kind of hard to provide a service when you are 8 pounds and inside a purse)


User currently offlineCaspian27 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 382 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 10780 times:

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 18):
Quoting azstar (Reply 8):
U S Airways contract of carriage, as most other airlines, require large service animals to remain on the floor in front of the passengers seat. It is probably not safe for the dog to remain in a seat since it can't be strapped in properly for take off and landing. In this situation, it appears U S Airways was correct and the passenger was completely unreasonable, IMO.

Could you point that part of their C of C for me? http://www.usairways.com/en-US/resou...boutus/US_contract_of_carriage.pdf

Quoting roseflyer (Reply 9):
I feel sorry for the gentleman who does not understand, but those are the FAA rules. His dog could hurt someone including him if there is turbulence or an evacuation since seats and seatbelts are only designed for people.

Where is that in the FAA rules? http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/rules/382short.pdf

The thing about seat belts poor reasoning since lap children are still allowed.

SkyWest procedures which are FAA approved, clearly state that service animals cannot occupy a pax seat. The FA had no choice but to ask the pax to put the dog on the floor and when he wouldn't, the pilots had no choice but to escalate the situation. This guy let his emotions get the best of him. There was absolutely no excuse for that kind of language with children around.



Meanwhile, somewhere 35,000 ft above your head...
User currently offlineroseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9637 posts, RR: 52
Reply 22, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 10738 times:

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 18):
Where is that in the FAA rules? http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/rules...t.pdf

The SOP on how to comply with 382.55 is FAA approved and the operator must follow it.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineairtechy From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 502 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 10688 times:

How do you fit a "service animal" in the already cramped area which is usually completely filled by legs and feet?  

AT


User currently offlinetype-rated From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 5033 posts, RR: 19
Reply 24, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 10676 times:

Quoting itrade (Reply 1):
US is still reeling from the "service pig" that it had to deal with about 10 or 12 years ago.

You beat me to it... anyone who read that story will never forget it!

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 12):
I feel this section of the ACAA needs to be rewritten and have clearer certification and behvaiour guidelines and enact harsh penalties for the fake service animal people (can you tell I really hate them!)

Recently there were some laws passed to make it harder to have your "service dog" with you while traveling. From what I understand a letter from a doctor that you mail in to get your service dog card no longer works. You now have to have that letter from a qualified mental health worker as well as having the dog tested to make sure he can perform his "service" duties. Then and only then do you get the service dog card.

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 20):
So much so that there is now a registry to get 'service animal' credentials for your emotional support animal.

Thankfully.

Maybe the agent came on board just to ask the guy to have his dog lay on the floor. But when the guy started yelling at the agent it was immediately "game over". He was lucky, they could have had the TSA come oboard, handcuff him and drag him along the floor and up the jetway while kicking his dog behind him. And if his dog truly was a trained service dog, it would have known to lay on the floor.



Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
25 malaysia : I am a CRO and a CRO at another station made an assumption that I had a disability while I was off duty and flying as a passenger and I had to correc
26 apfpilot : Yup, if the OpSpecs do say that then they must be complied with and carry the full force of 14CFR but that does not make it an FAA rule as those don'
27 Post contains images hh65man : Poor fella (pooch), imagine having to put up with that for the rest of your life.
28 gregarious119 : That was my thought...gotta love a good, loyal retriever. Still wagging his tail even in the face of dealing with this guy for the rest of his life.
29 IADCA : This exactly. It's embarrassing and just makes him seem totally unreasonable. It's like John Goodman's character in The Big Lebowski constantly tryin
30 ASFlyer : it's unfortunate that the airline rewarded his bad behavior by providing a hotel and then allowing him to travel the next day. if someone behaves like
31 DTWPurserBoy : The carrier has the right to designate where persons with service animals can sit and have the right to insist that the animal be seated on the floor
32 PROSA : That is an excellent point. Seeing a video of only part of an incident may lead to very misleading conclusions. To use a non-aviation example, this h
33 apfpilot : Oh really? Sec. 121.571 — Briefing passengers before takeoff. (a) Each certificate holder operating a passenger-carrying airplane shall insure that
34 Maverick623 : It was a service animal, not an emotional support animal. LOL. TSA doesn't arrest people (thank God). FWIW, they had the police come on and escort hi
35 rcair1 : There is not official service dog registry that is government recognized. What there is are organizations such as NSAR (National Service Animal Regis
36 type-rated : Then if what you say is true, how did this incident happen in the first place? QUALIFYING AS A SERVICE ANIMAL: An animal that is providing a service t
37 mesaflyguy : Do we even know what type of ailment the man was dealing with? He kept saying he was fully disabled, but he was able to walk, hear, and seemingly, he
38 eal46859 : The Service Dog Official Guidelines clearly say that the Guide/Service dog is to be on the floor at all times and that at take off, the dog should be
39 N908AW : Well, 121.571(a)(1)(i) refers to crewmember instructions and their compliance with posted placards (91.9) & lighted information signs... 121.577
40 apfpilot : Ok but that still doesn't make it an FAR. In fact those FARs you cited specifically limit those items which passengers are required to comply with cr
41 n92r03 : As an American, I thank him for his service to our country. That being said, it does not absolve him from acting like a normal human being. No need to
42 IADCA : He was probably quoting his disability rating as given by the VA. There are specific criteria for that used for the determination of certain benefits
43 rcair1 : Emotional support animals do receive some protection, just not as much as physical service dogs. I'm not sure if you are asking me about the comments
44 skywaymanaz : Not yet but the mission creep continues unchecked and there are those who would welcome them getting LEO status. Can't agree more. I'm always glad th
45 flydeltajets : According to the US contract of carriage. The animal may occupy the SAME seat as the passenger.
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