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Will It Be Over For Sabena Within 24h?  
User currently offlineAir Orange From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (12 years 12 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2745 times:

26.9.2001: Sabena is forcing the unions to let down their demands. If not Sabena will be bankrupted within now and 24 hours.

73 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
User currently offlineBelugaBoy From Belgium, joined Mar 2001, 139 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (12 years 12 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2474 times:

KPMG controller here in the company gives advise to cancel all Sabena tickets. ( 26/09/2001 morning )

There is no future at all !
If the plan is NOT carried out like it was on the table ( and that will not be the case because manegement gave in on certain things ! ) bankrupcy is 100 % certain, even the case that the plan will be carried out the chances that Sabena makes 2002 is not greater then 10 % . Situation is getting worse every minute ! (**)

Pilots say they will go on strike ( !!!! ) when there is an agreement between management and unions without there approval. You should know that they are not even participating in those talks !! When there is no agreement .... ( see above )

So the conclusion : bankrupcy is a fact !!

( ** source = KPMG controller )

User currently offlineCeilidh From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (12 years 12 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2429 times:

If I was Swissair, I'd sue BeCA (which isn't even a recognised union) and every pilot that strikes for the money that they lost on their investment. What a bunch of selfish children - prepared to let 9,000 people lose their jobs because they can't get their own way!  Pissed  Pissed  Pissed

User currently offlineSab12 From Belgium, joined Sep 2001, 96 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (12 years 12 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2382 times:


Not all pilots share the view of the BCA, far from.

I do agree that the moneychannels to SR have to stop, but I do not agree to go on strike, as do many of my colleagues.
We should fight for the survival of our company and not put a knife in the back of our CEO.

User currently offlineLumumba From Belgium, joined Mar 2001, 369 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (12 years 12 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2358 times:

I think that they have an agreament on the table?
Wy don't now what's inside yet.
Let's have a bit of hope now.
I think that all the poeple of SABENA deserved it.

User currently offlineCeilidh From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (12 years 12 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2340 times:

Sab12 - if there were more people with your views, SN would not be in the situation it is today!

User currently offlineSab12 From Belgium, joined Sep 2001, 96 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (12 years 12 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2331 times:


I know they are there, and I hope that we can give Sabena a future, I will certainly fight for it, but never at the expense of pax

User currently offlineSabenapilot From Belgium, joined Feb 2000, 2714 posts, RR: 46
Reply 7, posted (12 years 12 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2340 times:

An ex-Schreiner guy are you?

Yes, I thought so... :-(

User currently offlineCybise From Belgium, joined Sep 2001, 9 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (12 years 12 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2325 times:

Now I’m pissed. I hope that the Sabena pilots sue Swissair AND the Belgian government for standing by with their fingers up their noses while the amazing management team from the Swiss have raped the company blind right under their faces!!! How on earth can somebody blame a group of professional pilots for the downfall of an entire airline??? For asking some questions like: “Where the hell has all our money gone?” “Why are we paying over 400% more for our catering and ground handling since the Swiss took over?” It sounds to me like they care more than anyone what happens to Sabena. They are certainly not looking out for their own best interests. They are genuinely concerned for the survival of their company! Can somebody tell me why they are evil for asking some important questions? I suppose this could be directed at ceilidh, but I’ll be very depressed if he’s the only one to respond to this. Without having a business degree like these really smart management people at Swissair and Sabena, can you tell me genius, why they can’t get answers to their simple questions or even be able to complete a proper audit when the management refuses to give them all the paperwork? So this is the scenario for those who despise Sabena for some strange reason. The country has some problems, like all. It’s damn expensive to run a business and the social cost is great. But to slam over and over again an entire country and hate with a passion a particular airline is beyond me.
Well, I vented. It just burns me to read posts about Sabena and see that people blame the pilots for being the airline destroyer when they are the ONLY ones to take a stand against this obvious bone picking of Sabena. If this company is going down, they might as well go down asking all the right questions. Some day they may not be able to survive, but now is the time to find out WHY!
The wife of a Sabena pilot

User currently offlineSab12 From Belgium, joined Sep 2001, 96 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (12 years 12 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2307 times:


Sorry to tell you but I am not an Ex Schreiner pilot, I am a belgian pilot who works longer then you in Sabena, so keep your arguments for yourself and go insult other people.
I am not against the BCA, I just don't share all there views especially the use of striking when we are in such a bad shape, and I believe in a democratic world you are free to have an opinion.
Sabenapilot if you have a problem with that you should not be on this forum but somewhere else....

User currently offlineCeilidh From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (12 years 12 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2295 times:

Cybise - if SN's catering and handling costs are artificially expensive, then don't you think that the Belgian government would have looked into it? I recently compared the handling costs between Belgavia and SN/Swissport and the cost was negligible.

I suspect that the reality is simply that each area of the company was reorganised as an independent cost centre and had to charge market rates to other parts of the company for their business. This is normal practice!

I cannot see how striking helps the company! What does a strike do? It costs the company serious amounts of money, it causes inconvenience for the passengers and other clients of the company, and it causes those customers to place their business elsewhere in the future. What's the benefit, then, if, as you say they are genuinely concerned for the survival of their company! - it's a heck of a strange way to show it!  Insane  Insane

As I understand it, BeCA was given access to all the documentation (as were the other unions). BeCA wanted to take copies of the documents, which was not permitted. The other unions completed their audit and were satisfied. BeCA, as I understand it, threw their toys out of the cot because they were not allowed to break the rules - known to all parties in advance - and therefore went on strike!

There are many more reasonable people within Sabena - like Sab12 - who do care about their future and who want the company to survive. They recognise - as do all the other unions - that the only way to achieve that survival is to accept the business plan (together with whatever additional cuts will be required as result of the changed market conditions) and sort out any problems down track when the company has stabilised.

The militants at BeCA, on the other hand, are prepared - as Airbuspilot has said in the past - to put 9,000 people out of work because they can't do things their way.

Is that right or fair? I think not!

User currently offlineSpitfire From France, joined Feb 2001, 801 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (12 years 12 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 2264 times:

You are once more completly wrong Ceilidh. We have find the numbers:
- catering cost 1999: 355 m and 1995 m for 2000 (+ 465%)!!!!!!!!!!!!! They are giving caviar the economy class pax or what??????????
- And the same for ground handling ( increase of more that 6 BILLIONS Bef between 1999 and 2000).
By the way, except for 2 and half days of strike this year (wich effectively have cost some millions to the Sabena - but nothing compare to the lost of 4.3 BILLIONS for the first semestre of this year- just an error of 300% made by the managment- prevision was -1.3 billions AT THE END OF 2001),are you able to point out WHEN the pilots made their last social actions,... let's say for the last five years ?????

Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
User currently offlineCybise From Belgium, joined Sep 2001, 9 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (12 years 12 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 2255 times:

Yes, why hasn't the Belgian government looked into the costs at Sabena? They see the pilots kicking over these numbers that don't seem to make sense to them. Are you saying that the BeCA has been using incorrect numbers? They didn't complete an audit. They were given one in three papers that they asked for, and management apparently wasn't cooperating. Do you think Sabena has the best rates for their catering and handling? Why do you think Swissair took away some profitable routes from Sabena and gave them to themselves? Why are they taking Tokyo away and charging an additional 16,000BF per ticket? Why did they take away Miami? Why can't Sabena keep those and help dig themselves out of the hole? Is there something going on with Sabena that they (Swissair) don't want anyone to know about? Then why don't they answer the questions asked of them! If there's so much finger pointing and no dialogue then why is that? How come Mueller isn't sitting down with the pilots, the flight attendants and all ground support and answering these questions. Won't happen. And I'm sure Sab12 would love to keep his job just like everyone else, but is he on the right aircraft that Sabena will be keeping? Because seniority just got chucked out the window. Yes, strikes are terrible things people do in terrible times. Unfortunately they cause some pain in the short term, but fortunately they can make positive changes for the long term. I've already heard of so many strikes in other companies I can't even count them. Haven't heard about the militants that they are having no right to defend themselves when something is obviously wrong! And if anyone can answer those questions I've asked, I'd say they should get a job at Sabena management because they'd be doing a much better job than what I've seen/heard about so far.

User currently offlineLj From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4429 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (12 years 12 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2243 times:

The unions (except for BeCA allthough BeCA is not considered an union) and the management have reached an agreement about the 1,400 lay offs. However the pilots are not commenting untill the final text has been published (tomorrow). Anyway the referendum will go ahead on October 2nd and the day after is D-day for SN (the SN shareholders meeting).

My predictions. As the strike ban has been lifted they (the pilots) will probably strike on October 2nd and/or October 3rd. I hope for 100% backing of Muller's business plan however I think 85% is more likely. The employees (apart from maybe the pilots) wouldn't dare to force SN into bankruptcy thus they accept the business plan.

I can't forcast how the pilots will react but if they reject Muller's plan I see a 90% chance that SR will say on October 3rd: " Goodbye Sabena" and SN will go bankrupt. However, I think that the pilots are bluffing (they don't really want to lead SN into bankruptcy) and just as most other employees vote (reluctantly) in favour of Muller's business plan (apert from some pilots).

Anyway as the VRT already put it correctly: Muller has won!


User currently offlineGo Canada! From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 2955 posts, RR: 11
Reply 14, posted (12 years 12 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2192 times:

if only, typical unions, wreck and ravage and complain

It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
User currently offlineLX-Maria From Luxembourg, joined Sep 2001, 70 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (12 years 12 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2172 times:

As a general remark; don't answer Ceilidh.
To all the Sabena-guys; i fully understand your position but i wouldn't strike; just go for some pax-friendly action.
The referendum wil turn against you as i heard there is an extra 3 months in it to negociate new productivity measures; this will make people considering to answer 'yes' on the crucial question. I would just go accepting the BP of Herr Muller; consider it a tactical move just to get the money.
In the next months coming: it will prove he has a bad BP and he will be fired; i mean; he will go back to Swissair.
For the Sabena-guys; keep your aircrafts in the air as i still want to join Sabena one day; be it especially as my future husband works in Gent.
PS: If Muller really meant to become a Sabénien; he would have started learning dutch or french to show some respect for the Belgian workforce. I started 6 months ago and "ik ben er zeker van dat het voor iedereen mogelijk is jullie taal te leren in een korte tijdspanne. Dikke kussen en tot binnnenkort. Doe zo voort en zet misschien een 'charme-offensief?' in voor het Belgische publiek."

User currently offlineSpitfire From France, joined Feb 2001, 801 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (12 years 12 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2167 times:

WOOOOOW LX-MARIA.... proficiat.....(from a french speaking sabenian...).Anyway thank you for your support.

Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
User currently offlineFirst Class From Switzerland, joined Jan 2000, 83 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (12 years 12 months 19 hours ago) and read 2135 times:

Hi there
Anything new about the bankruptcy of Sabena? When will we know more about the vote?
Cheers, Hanspeter

User currently offlineSpitfire From France, joined Feb 2001, 801 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (12 years 12 months 19 hours ago) and read 2128 times:

Today I guess

Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
User currently offlineSabenapilot From Belgium, joined Feb 2000, 2714 posts, RR: 46
Reply 19, posted (12 years 12 months 18 hours ago) and read 2133 times:

Hello LX-Maria!

Here's something to think about by those who claim SR does not try to rip off SN as much as possible...
Take 2 minutes and read it carefully, please.
Until 1999 Sabena cabin crew was responsible for replacing the curtain/deviders between Y and C class each time there was a cabin config change in outstation (so almost on half of the flights). Ceilidh may not believe it, but nobody of the cabin crew ever complained about this. After all, it takes only 2 minutes and is considered as part of the job in almost any airline, including his would-be carrier I'd imagine... Smile/happy/getting dizzy.
However, SN's management thought it would be more "appropriate" to give this responsability to ground handling i.s.o. flight crew, so as from the beginning of 2000 replacing the curtains is done by Swissport handling at the cost of 7000 francs (or 175 euro) per plane handeled!
Don't you think this is just outrageous? Not only is the cost of this way too high, but it is also very stupid to introduce such a thing at all at a moment where you are loosing money, don't you think? This totally useless contract is worth around 300.000.000 francs (or 7.5 million euro) a year! (source = SN)
Unions of the cabin crew have on several occasions told the management that they wouldn't mind if this contract would be terminated and that they would be pleased to take up that responsibility once again like they did for the last 50 years. After all, according to the unions, our cabin crew still has some spare minutes in between flights anyway.
No way, said the management, we'll keep the contract!
If you want to do something in between your flights you can cut the lemons yourself from now on, i.s.o. having them pre-sliced on board. Estimated savings of this silly measure are as low as only 2 million franc a year....
This is just one of the many corrupt thinks the audit came up with and after the BeCA (and other Unions) asked to get official copies of both the lemon slicing agreement and even more important the curtain contract (to be able to go to court with those and show that the management is abusing its powers) the SN management ordered us to stop the audit immediately.

User currently offlineSabenapilot From Belgium, joined Feb 2000, 2714 posts, RR: 46
Reply 20, posted (12 years 12 months 17 hours ago) and read 2120 times:

I don't want to spend too much time on this.
We shouldn't burn all our energy fighting eachother, we should fight SR together;
As you have said, you want the transfers from SN to SR to be stopped. I want that too!
However, you don't want to put a knife in Muller's back. Me neither actually. I don't like to fight the person, because that won't change a thing for SN. If we kick Muller out, they'll just put another gangster in! (Just look at Godfroid; the BeCA and the Unions kicked him out, but what did we get in return?)
We sould urge the Belgian government to get rid of SR instead!
They have proven over the last year to be completely dishonest and corrupt! Only a fair partnership can save us. That's why the BeCA really needs to kick those buts from time to time our nothing will change at all.
Do you really think the plan will save your job?
I can assure you that by 31 Dec 2001 we'll all be in exactly the same situation as we are now even with the Muller plan...
I suppose you know that ALL the money that will be "invested" in Sabena in a few days (i.e. 17 billion francs) will go to SR at the end of December since Sabena has agreed to expedite the pay back of a loan to Zurich?
I mean, we don't have a cent for ourselve, but we will do more then legally required by paying back a loan to others in one time? Do you consider it common practice of any CEO of a struggeling company to accept this?
Of course not, except at Sabena, where the CEO is actually a SR man, who's only goal is to save his real employer Swissair at the expenses of others Sabena, AOM, Air Littoral, ....

User currently offlineCeilidh From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (12 years 12 months 17 hours ago) and read 2111 times:

CityBird hasn't gone into liquidation, by the way...

From today's ATW Online:

At City Bird Holding's general meeting yesterday, shareholders voted in favor of a takeover of the airline by German tourism group Thomas Cook AG. Earlier this week Thomas Cook had let it be known that it no longer was interested in acquiring the financially troubled charter airline given the difficult trading circumstances following the Sept. 11 events in the US. However, a Brussels court decided the German group had to pursue its commitment as negotiations were already in a final stage. Shareholders accepted to waive the eur9.9 million purchase price in a last effort to accomplish the recovery plan, which is being organized under a court-supervised creditor protection scheme, and as such save the airline from bankruptcy. In return, Thomas Cook committed Bef1.15 billion of financial means to ensure City Bird's continuity.

User currently offlineSab12 From Belgium, joined Sep 2001, 96 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (12 years 12 months 17 hours ago) and read 2105 times:


If Muller wanted to leave Sabena he would allready be long gone, because he allready had the chance to become head of the Swiss air group, but instead he chose to stay with Sabena so I think he deserves some credit for that.
At this moment there's no real choice what we can do, we can only accept the BP or it is finished on the 3 october and then we can continue to discuss the moneychannels to SR.
If we go on strike now it will be finished with Sabena, so you will give the Swiss want they want!
We should fight and show the Belgian taxpayer the Sabena has a reason for existance but not by punishing our pax, no pax=no sabena.
You can bet on it that the Belgian governement will keep here eyes open now, maybe you have noticed the growing discussions between political parties.
But for now we do not have an option, if Sabena goes bankrupt then you and I are on the street and believe me, you will never work for the same salary again

User currently offlineFirst Class From Switzerland, joined Jan 2000, 83 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (12 years 12 months 16 hours ago) and read 2084 times:

Sorry to say but these pilots statements disqualify themselves. But to be honest I do not expect more from them.
The statements lack of any knowhow and context.
This seems to be these pilots narrow minds.
Please be a bit more selfcritical.
You as everybody else know that Sabena never ever made any profit and it was always feeded by the government.
Seems to be historical that no Belgium airline can operate profitable (Sabena, TEA, Citybird, Virgin Express...).

User currently offlineSpitfire From France, joined Feb 2001, 801 posts, RR: 7
Reply 24, posted (12 years 12 months 16 hours ago) and read 2081 times:

Excuse me Sab12, did you attend the general assembly for all the employees of tuesday evening and did you see the slides presentation of one of our Captain?

Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
25 Sab12 : pls inform me spitfire, I do not know?
26 D-AQUI : Being a regular SABENA passenger (at least two sectors per week) I have asked myself the introductory question over and over again, particularly when
27 Spitfire : Sab12, Don't say me you were not informed about a BeCA general assy tuesday at 17 pm for the pilots and at 19 pm for ALL the Sabena's employees.More t
28 Sab12 : Spitfire Offcourse I was informed about the assembly, but I was unable to attend since I was flying
29 Sabenapilot : First Class, There is more knowhow in the lower echelons of Sabena's cleaning department then in the complete SwissairGroup management. How else can y
30 Spitfire : Sab12, that's a pretty good reason of course !! Ask people who attend this meeting. It will be too long to explain here every proof concerning the flo
31 Post contains images Gibberish : They should be bankrupt by now then!!!
32 Sab12 : Spitfire, You do not have to convince me about moneychannels to SR, I do totally agree on this subject with you and there should be an immediate stop
33 Spitfire : Ok Sab 12, We'll have to wait now to see what's remaining of Müller's plan concerning the social part and hope we can find an agreement in the next w
34 Cfalk : Sabenapilot, There is more knowhow in the lower echelons of Sabena's cleaning department then in the complete SwissairGroup management Why don't you p
35 First Class : To Sabenapilot: Just one last answer to you: In the whole net I have never found such stupid arguments you use. It is so ridiculous that it is a waste
36 Airbus380 : It has been 24 hours since your post and they are still flying.
37 Spitfire : Still lots of work to do to convince people about what we have found in the papers.....
38 Post contains images Sabenapilot : Hello Cfalk, My last post was basically for First Class only. What I ment was: stop regarding us at Sabena as a bunch of idiots who do not even know h
39 Sabenapilot : Yes First Class, Wasn't the earth considered flat for a few thousands of years?
40 Md-11 forever : So the money flows from SN to SR... funny fairy tale!!! So if this is true, why on earth is swissair group close to bankrupcy???? It's quite funny to
41 Spitfire : Wait and see Md-11....
42 Gerardo : How many millions of US$ went from SR to SN first? Just a question ....
43 Sabenapilot : MD-11 forever, I thought Swiss were known as clever bankers... I'll give you the simplified mechanism on how to rip off a company by owning it only fo
44 Erj190 : I have a certain tendency to sympathize with people that consider Swissair and the SairGroup responsable for the current situation of Sabena. Althous
45 Post contains images 310_engineer : WOH, look at that! Seems like Swissair use the same scenariobook with TAP. No the good old brave Swissair would never do a thing like that, must be a
46 Teahan : Hello, I might not be adding much, but I must say that I sympathize with Sabena Employees and the people on this board who believe in the SN->SR cashf
47 Post contains images Spitfire : Dear Sabenapilot, May I add something to your great demonstration ? I have been explained, a few month ago, by a Swiss friend (staff of a big bank in
48 Spitfire : Thanks Erj190. With evidences like yours, slowly but surely the halter is tying up around SR neck....
49 Ceilidh : I don't think anyone disagrees that SR took advantage of SN and its other acquisitions - but the reality is that that's what most holding companies do
50 DragonRapide : What everyone seems to be forgetting is the politics that are ongoing behind the scene. - unions want to reaffirm their existence over an over again.
51 Avion2002 : This morning UseNet (Aviation Ins.) reported that the Belgian authorities assess the possibility to limit the licence coverage of Belgian pilots. This
52 Airbuspilot : 1)SR is the only airline untill now that managed to push 4 different airlines into bankruptcy!!!!So far for being good bankers! The swiss banking syst
53 First Class : Just one more clarification to all the bullshit Sabenapilot spreads: SN has never ever leased any Flightlease aircraft. So the EUR 300 Mio is another
54 Spitfire : Fist Class, Yes AT BRU only, but all over the world we HAVE TO take SwissGourmet AND Swissport (by Swissair contract!!!!). And from where Sabena are l
55 Airbuspilot : I think you are wrong.... Sabena has aircraft leased from flightlease. The largest part of the A32F and some RJ for example. Handling and catering in
56 First Class : Flightlease only leases three RJ100's to DAT. These aircraft are leased at market rates, i.e. comparable to other lessors rates. No other Sabena aircr
57 TriStar : OMG, is this for real? Most of SN's European flights are return catered, eh? My oh my. Next time catering tries to board on outstation, I'll make sure
58 DragonRapide : I have my doubts about this return catering too. Don't say it never happens only not very often. In all the times I flew Sabena I cannot remember that
59 Cfalk : First Class is correct. I just checked the JP, and Sabena leases none of their aircraft through Flightlease. In fact, they seem to own outright a high
60 Post contains images Tca256 : What make me sick in this debate is not the arguments between pro Sabena and -cons but the phrases used by some, such as wishing people to lose their
61 First Class : Oh, here we have a great specialist!!!! Hat's off!!!! If we assume that 50% of all SN flights leave BRU, we have 20% of flights which are return-cater
62 TriStar : While you seem to have your percentages mixed up a bit, I have more important things to worry about, so I'll just leave you your wisdom. I bow down in
63 Post contains images Ceilidh : Airbuspilot, I never said that YOU said that BeCA wants 9,000 people to lose their jobs - get it right. ONNOZELAAR yourself! The reality is that by co
64 Airbuspilot : Just been at the tarmac ceilasshole, it is a majority of the pilots, believe me.... Yo tristar, do not botter to react here. Very low level today. Tij
65 Cfalk : As far as Sabena is concerned, CIT only owns a few of the 737 Classics, the oldest planes in Sabena's fleet and with the lowest value. Once again, I h
66 RJ100 : Airbuspilot: I'm just reading your posts and I think you're the only one here that produces low level posts. you're opinion about Swiss banks etc: f**
67 Airbuspilot : Well well well, RJ100 , are you hurt. Let me tell you that I am certainly not the only one here with that opinion about the swiss banks!!!You would be
68 BelugaBoy : Swiss banks .... Beca .... start to understand know ? Seems that proove will be given by those assholes themselves How stupid can you be ? Sabena Pilo
69 Post contains images Sabenapilot : First Class and Cfalk, I never thought it would have to come to this, but I agree with Ceilidh! --------- All the DIFFERENT companies you mention are
70 Cfalk : Sabenapilot, Do you know for sure that they are Flightlease companies? The most common "owners" of such "ghost" companies are the plane manufacturers
71 RJ100 : Airbuspilot: you should rather question your own country's history (Congo?!) than pointing on Switzerland. BTW, you always took Swiss money (Sabena) s
72 Cfalk : BTW, you always took Swiss money (Sabena) so be quiet. Ouch! 3 points! Charles
73 Airbuspilot : I for one never took swiss money.... It still has to be proven that is not the other way around, maybe the swiss too our money???? What the hell was w
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