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Philippine Airlines Launching LHR Instead Of LGW?  
User currently offlinecityairline From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 687 posts, RR: 0
Posted (10 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 15936 times:

Seems like PAL has secured slots at Heathrow instead of Gatwick as previously reported.
How did they get their hands on those?
http://philippineairspace.blogspot.s...2013/09/pal-secures-lhr.html#links

Absolutely great if this will push through!

/Alex


I don't fly to live, I live to fly...
68 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTC957 From UK - England, joined May 2012, 814 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (10 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 15766 times:

They last served LHR with A340's, service was transferred from LGW. Hope they do indeed come back, presume they'll use 340's again, at least to start with.

User currently offlineAkiestar From Philippines, joined May 2009, 784 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (10 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 15749 times:

Didn't PR keep its LHR slots from when it was still flying there prior to the Asian financial crisis?

Quoting TC957 (Reply 1):
Hope they do indeed come back, presume they'll use 340's again, at least to start with.

Based on what I know, it's either the new A333, the A343 or the 77W which will be sent to Europe.

[Edited 2013-09-13 05:20:03]

User currently offlineTC957 From UK - England, joined May 2012, 814 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (10 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 15714 times:

77W for AMS I'm sure, and the A343 to LHR, CDG or wherever else in Europe. Even the highest gross weight A333's won't do MNL to Europe non-stop.

User currently offlinebehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4756 posts, RR: 43
Reply 4, posted (10 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 15672 times:

these timings are very good and hopefully the B77W shall be operated.

good to see PAL making the $ 2.5 million investment into Heathrow and abandoning Gatwick.


User currently offlinehotplane From UK - England, joined Jul 2006, 1038 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (10 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 15348 times:

Is one of the slots the RO Iasi flight?


?
User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3130 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (10 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 15294 times:

Quoting behramjee (Reply 4):
these timings are very good and hopefully the B77W shall be operated.

I agree, bad timing, you can do domestic connections to Europe maybe, but outside of that, only the return flight offers regional connections with out an overnight. I think they would be fools to fly anything but the 77W to LHR. I thought they were keeping the 343s just until cat 2 is lifted, then they can change aircraft types to their N American destinations.



AA-AC-AQ-AS-BN-BD-CO-CS-DL-EA-EZ-HA-HP-KL-KN-MP-MW-NK-NW-OO-OZ-PA-PS-QX-RC-RH-RW-SA-TG-TW-UA-US-VS-WA-WC-WN
User currently offlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4781 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 14987 times:

Good that PR is returning to LHR after a long absence.....

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Quoting TC957 (Reply 3):
Even the highest gross weight A333's won't do MNL to Europe non-stop.

Those can do MNL-DXB-LHR.....

http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=mnl-dxb-lhr&MS=wls&MR=900&MX=720x360&PM=*
http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=mnl-dxb-lhr&MS=wls&MR=900&MX=720x360&PM=*

Quoting TC957 (Reply 3):
77W for AMS I'm sure, and the A343 to LHR, CDG or wherever else in Europe.

PR might even try hopscotching through Europe like they used to.....

http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=mnl-dxb-fco-mxp-lhr-ams-fra-dmm-mnl&MS=wls&MR=900&MX=720x360&PM=*
http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=mnl-dxb-f...-mnl&MS=wls&MR=900&MX=720x360&PM=*

.....but that is a very unappealing proposition just to fill the flight. 77W nonstop to MNL may be too big initially, so we could be looking at the A340s from Iberia.....

http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=mnl-lhr&MS=wls&MR=900&MX=720x360&PM=*
http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=mnl-lhr&MS=wls&MR=900&MX=720x360&PM=*

Hmmn...seems like an ideal route for a B788.   


Quoting RWA380 (Reply 6):
Quoting behramjee (Reply 4):
these timings are very good and hopefully the B77W shall be operated.

I agree, bad timing

Come again?   



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineLatinPlane From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 2713 posts, RR: 14
Reply 8, posted (10 months 3 weeks ago) and read 14831 times:

Does PR really need to be landing at LHR? They're not precisely going for business traffic, rather mostly targeting the Filipino community in England. That is a heavy investment, that is well worth it, but only if it's going to pay off.

User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3130 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (10 months 3 weeks ago) and read 14735 times:

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 7):
Come again?

I meant to say I don't agree, the timing on the return looks decent, but the morning departure from MNL, does not allow for connections other than some domestic markets. Unless this service is expected to be almost exclusively O/D.

Yeah that previous sytement didn't make much sense.



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User currently offlineORDTLV2414 From United States of America, joined Mar 2013, 300 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (10 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 14633 times:
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How much more traffic can LHR handle??

User currently offlinecityairline From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 687 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (10 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 14402 times:

Apparently the schedule is out and the flight is bookable!

The flight will be launched on November 4th and operate five times a week on the 77W!!!

PR720 MNL0805 – 1400LHR 77W 1
PR720 MNL0820 – 1415LHR 77W 47
PR720 MNL0830 – 1425LHR 77W 36

PR721 LHR1615 – 1250+1MNL 77W 1
PR721 LHR1715 – 1350+1MNL 77W 47
PR721 LHR1905 – 1540+1MNL 77W 36

After 15 years of absence PAL will finally return to Europe, and the Philippines will once again have a nonstop service to Europe.

Quoting LatinPlane (Reply 8):
Does PR really need to be landing at LHR? They're not precisely going for business traffic, rather mostly targeting the Filipino community in England. That is a heavy investment, that is well worth it, but only if it's going to pay off.

While I agree that the Philippines has been (and to a big extent still is) a low yielding market with not much business traffic, one needs to keep in mind that the nation is currently the fastest growing major economy in all of Asia! So far this year it has been growing even faster than China, India and Indonesia. It is lately even called a new Asian tiger, or Tiger cub economy. So probably PAL is also looking forward and geering up for the future to come. ULH are often difficult to turn profitable, and BA would most certainly not be able to make this route lucrative, but PAL with its lower cost base and high-density configuration might just make it.

/Alex



I don't fly to live, I live to fly...
User currently offlineMHG From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 777 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (10 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 14392 times:

Just checked fares (out nov 4 and back nov 10) for LHR-MNL-LHR and in "U"-class roundtrip fare is 983.75 GBP incl.tax.
Scheduled equipment is B 777 !
All flights are non-stop.

Great its finally going to happen ... !
Just waiting for FRA to pop up in their schedule, though.



I miss the sound of rolls royce darts and speys
User currently offlineTC957 From UK - England, joined May 2012, 814 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (10 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 14371 times:

Yes indeed - showing on Galileo now too. From 4 Nov, so not that much lead-in time.
77W it is.
Welome back PR !


User currently offlineTC957 From UK - England, joined May 2012, 814 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (10 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 14310 times:

I'm sure there will be consolidator and agent nett fare contracts on this route soon.
Garuda should be next for a Europe expansion. So much for those on this site that think the ME3 big boys have saturated the Europe - Philippine market, and that PR & GA could never make non-stops to Europe work now.


User currently offlineplanesarecool From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2001, 4119 posts, RR: 11
Reply 15, posted (10 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 14090 times:

Looks like the flight timings won't allow for connections to/from Australia, shame. New operators on the Kangaroo route tend to offer very competitive fares.

Quoting TC957 (Reply 14):
So much for those on this site that think the ME3 big boys have saturated the Europe - Philippine market, and that PR & GA could never make non-stops to Europe work now.

Well they haven't made it work yet. And Garuda have already postponed their planned operation to London.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 6):
you can do domestic connections to Europe maybe,

 


User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7172 posts, RR: 13
Reply 16, posted (10 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 14033 times:

I like flying PR, I have a number of sectors on them - one of the things that gets me on longer distance International flights is that I would like to be able to accrue them to an account affiliated with one of the alliances. I don't otherwise fly them often enough to build up many Mabuhay miles.

User currently offlineBasilFawlty From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 1316 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (10 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 13904 times:

Quoting cityairline (Thread starter):
How did they get their hands on those?

Off-peak time slots such as those are available without any problem.

Quoting TC957 (Reply 3):
77W for AMS I'm sure,

AMS is supposed to be A343 in the beginning, 3-4 weekly flights starting in December, if everything goes as planned.

Quoting ORDTLV2414 (Reply 10):
How much more traffic can LHR handle??

There's still enough room for expansion during off-peak gaps.



'Every year donkeys and mules kill more people than plane crashes'
User currently offlineAkiestar From Philippines, joined May 2009, 784 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (10 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 13217 times:

Quoting cityairline (Reply 11):
PR720 MNL0805 – 1400LHR 77W 1
PR720 MNL0820 – 1415LHR 77W 47
PR720 MNL0830 – 1425LHR 77W 36

PR721 LHR1615 – 1250+1MNL 77W 1
PR721 LHR1715 – 1350+1MNL 77W 47
PR721 LHR1905 – 1540+1MNL 77W 36

While I will agree that there's not much feed that can go into these flights on the outbound save for early morning flights from CEB and DVO (and maybe some of the midnight flights from places like DPS, CGK and CAN), on the inbound it's the opposite: the flight is well-suited for onward connections to Southeast Asia and, on certain days, Australia.

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 17):
AMS is supposed to be A343 in the beginning, 3-4 weekly flights starting in December, if everything goes as planned.

PR seems to have run into a problem with AMS: they have the slots, but AMS has denied its request for the times it wants to schedule the flight.


User currently offlineairlinebuilder From Philippines, joined Nov 2012, 181 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (10 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 13169 times:

CONGRATULATIONS TO PAL! Finally Asia's first is gaining its status back again, slowly but surely. It is rewarding to finally see it rehabilitating itself in so many ways, the airline that once help major airlines in Southeast Asia to set up the likes of Japan Airlines to name one.

User currently offlinedforce1 From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 505 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (10 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 12719 times:

The original link from the Philippine Air Space blog indicates that PAL was able to obtain daily slots at Heathrow. Any speculation as to why they are only operating five times per week? Is it due to lack of equipment or are they being cautious? Also, does any have any idea which Terminal they might use?

It was actually declared last May 2012 by Transportation Secretary Mar Roxas that PAL had unused frequencies to London Heathrow and were simply waiting for the ban to be lifted. I am glad that they were able to get to Heathrow although that early departure from Manila does pose somewhat of a problem for those trying to connect from the provinces to the outbound flight. But at least it's a start!

http://www.philippineflightnetwork.c...ne-airlines-service-to-london.html


User currently offlinecrownvic From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1865 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (10 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 12704 times:

Now all they need to do is get a on-line booking system that actually works and takes your credit card. I mean, come on already. I thought they finally resolved this problem, but sure enough, I tried booking travel with them today and it rejects every American credit card I have. This airline has got to get into the 21st Century. The funny thing is, every time this happens and you have to call them, they actually consistently claim their is nothing wrong with their system. OK, maybe once or twice you can believe it, but year after year, PAL's system has credit card problems and they feed you a bunch of BS nothing is wrong. Really? I much rather fly PAL than CEB, but in the end, I wound up booking CEB, an airline I hate giving one Peso to.

You would think that the investment from San Miguel would have fixed this issue, but it has not. I cannot understand how an airline buys 777-300ER's and Airbus' by the the dozens, but cannot fix the reservation system that fills the seats of those expensive planes. Total incompetence!


User currently offlineTC957 From UK - England, joined May 2012, 814 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (10 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 11943 times:

Use a reputable travel agent then, Crownvic. Your payment card will be processed by them instead and the booking will be made by them on a CRS system.

User currently offlinelaca773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 4002 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (10 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 11804 times:
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Quoting RWA380 (Reply 6):
I agree, bad timing, you can do domestic connections to Europe maybe, but outside of that, only the return flight offers regional connections with out an overnight. I think they would be fools to fly anything but the 77W to LHR. I thought they were keeping the 343s just until cat 2 is lifted, then they can change aircraft types to their N American destinations.

I was wondering about this too. They really need to get those 77Ws on their MNL-LAX-MNL flights. The A340s are too small for this market, and the 744s are far from efficient anymore.

I am happy PAL is sending their flagship a/c to LHR. I hope it works out for them.


User currently onlineblueshamu330s From UK - England, joined Sep 2001, 2866 posts, RR: 25
Reply 24, posted (10 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 11686 times:

Nearly £3,000 for J class return...

I'll forego the non-stop and stick to Qatar thank you very much; and £550 cheaper too.

Can't see this lasting more than 12 months.

Rgds



So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
User currently offlinesassiciai From UK - Scotland, joined Jan 2013, 334 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (10 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 11852 times:

Quoting blueshamu330s (Reply 24):
I'll forego the non-stop and stick to Qatar thank you very much; and £550 cheaper too.

I think you are right (at least partially - I prefer AUH by far over DOH for a stopover, given I have Etihad lounge access, and DOH currently is a dump)

I checked with momondo.com for a Y-return LHR-MNL in early-Decemer, and there are lots of 1-stop options cheaper than PR. I didnt go beyond the results page of momondo, so perhaps some of the quoted fares are subject some additional but minor credit card processing fees

Cheapest was CA at 688eur, others include EK (815), QR (757), EY (722), CZ, and BA(793). PR came in at 896eur and obviously scores on the overall journey time. I can imagine that a Filipina maid/nurse looking to fly home for a Christmas break will have a dilemma here - cheapest or "own airline"!


User currently offlineLondonCity From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2008, 1462 posts, RR: 0
Reply 26, posted (10 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 11307 times:

Quoting blueshamu330s (Reply 24):
Nearly £3,000 for J class return...
I'll forego the non-stop and stick to Qatar thank you very much; and £550 cheaper too.
Can't see this lasting more than 12 months.

The fact is that, as was the case when it last served Europe, PAL will sell its best fares through the travel trade and not direct to the public. PAL will need travel agents to fill the seats because its lead-in time is so short and, after an absence of 15 years, it has no market awareness with the general travelling public.


User currently offlineByrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2352 posts, RR: 1
Reply 27, posted (10 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 11526 times:

Quoting cityairline (Reply 11):
ULH are often difficult to turn profitable, and BA would most certainly not be able to make this route lucrative, but PAL with its lower cost base and high-density configuration might just make it.

So based on that fact, could we see some sort of cooperation between BA and PR or would BA just continue handing MNL bound pax off to CX?



The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
User currently offlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4781 posts, RR: 1
Reply 28, posted (10 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 11139 times:

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 6):
I think they would be fools to fly anything but the 77W to LHR.

Would you still say this if they flew the HGW A333 on a one-stopper to LHR like the GC route in #7?

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 9):
but the morning departure from MNL, does not allow for connections other than some domestic markets. Unless this service is expected to be almost exclusively O/D.

PR was probably constrained by the slots available to them.

Quoting MHG (Reply 12):
Just waiting for FRA to pop up in their schedule, though.

Any information on why FRA is lagging?

Quoting planesarecool (Reply 15):
Looks like the flight timings won't allow for connections to/from Australia, shame.

The body deserves a break after being cooped up in a plane for 12.5 hours. Relax and share a bit of those sterlings in MNL...it's more fun    !


Quoting dforce1 (Reply 20):
Any speculation as to why they are only operating five times per week? Is it due to lack of equipment or are they being cautious?

Could be both.

Quoting dforce1 (Reply 20):
Also, does any have any idea which Terminal they might use?

The linked blog at the thread's start says Terminal 4.

Quoting laca773 (Reply 23):
They really need to get those 77Ws on their MNL-LAX-MNL flights.

I think the evaluators are looking into it as we speak.

Quoting blueshamu330s (Reply 24):
Nearly £3,000 for J class return...

I'll forego the non-stop and stick to Qatar thank you very much; and £550 cheaper too.

Second comment following the linked blog of the OP says 1,828 sterling for MNL-LHR-MNL in J @ amadeus.net.

Quoting sassiciaiReply 25):
PR came in at 896eur and obviously scores on the overall journey time. I can imagine that a Filipina maid/nurse looking to fly home for a Christmas break will have a dilemma here - cheapest or "own airline"![/quote].

I think you've given the answer...they wouldn't want to be wasting their precious vacation time in some lonely terminal away from home. Speed, convenience plus their "kababayan's" warmth...no contest.

[quote=LondonCity,reply=26] PAL will need travel agents to fill the seats because its lead-in time is so short and, after an absence of 15 years, it has no market awareness with the general travelling public.

This is now the instantaneous connection age...there was no Facebook or Twitter then...  



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineMHG From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 777 posts, RR: 1
Reply 29, posted (10 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 11031 times:

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 28):
Any information on why FRA is lagging?

No real/official info ...
I rather have an "educated guess".
The slot coordination for FRA has probably not yielded a suitable slot for them yet.
FRA is nearly as difficult as LHR in this regard.



I miss the sound of rolls royce darts and speys
User currently onlineHB-IWC From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 4498 posts, RR: 72
Reply 30, posted (10 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 10575 times:

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 17):
Off-peak time slots such as those are available without any problem.
Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 17):
There's still enough room for expansion during off-peak gaps.

You may want to review that statement. These slots were just as hard to obtain as any others. Apart from a couple of slots here and there on real off peak times such as Saturday late afternoon, there is nothing to be had at Heathrow. These PR slots are not new, the must have come from somewhere.


User currently offlineSCQ83 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 850 posts, RR: 0
Reply 31, posted (10 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 10418 times:

Quoting sassiciai (Reply 25):
Cheapest was CA at 688eur, others include EK (815), QR (757), EY (722), CZ, and BA(793). PR came in at 896eur and obviously scores on the overall journey time. I can imagine that a Filipina maid/nurse looking to fly home for a Christmas break will have a dilemma here - cheapest or "own airline"!

I would also add the convenience of connecting with EK/EY/QR. There are multiple daily flights with any of those carriers from London, and multiple daily flights from DXB/DOH/AUH to the Philippines, so you can basically tailor your date and time schedule to your needs, instead of a fixed 5-weekly schedule from LON. Not to mention the number of flights of those carriers from other British cities. And EK and QR are starting soon flights to Clark, which may be more convenient for some of those OFW than MNL.

I don't think this PR flight will last for long either.


User currently offlinenzrich From New Zealand, joined Dec 2005, 1521 posts, RR: 1
Reply 32, posted (10 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 10322 times:

Quoting crownvic (Reply 21):

Now all they need to do is get a on-line booking system that actually works and takes your credit card. I mean, come on already. I thought they finally resolved this problem, but sure enough, I tried booking travel with them today and it rejects every American credit card I have. This airline has got to get into the 21st Century. The funny thing is, every time this happens and you have to call them, they actually consistently claim their is nothing wrong with their system. OK, maybe once or twice you can believe it, but year after year, PAL's system has credit card problems and they feed you a bunch of BS nothing is wrong. Really? I much rather fly PAL than CEB, but in the end, I wound up booking CEB, an airline I hate giving one Peso to.

You would think that the investment from San Miguel would have fixed this issue, but it has not. I cannot understand how an airline buys 777-300ER's and Airbus' by the the dozens, but cannot fix the reservation system that fills the seats of those expensive planes. Total incompetence!

Yes I know the feeling trying to buy an airline ticket in the us is a nightmare also if that airline does not serve the country that you live in . But they take the card over the phone . Only a few seem to take cards from all over the world regarless if they serve your country or not . So it is not just a PAL problem .



"Pride of the pacific"
User currently offlineMHG From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 777 posts, RR: 1
Reply 33, posted (10 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 9965 times:

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 31):
I don't think this PR flight will last for long either.

It will depend on whether they are able to charge a certain premium for offering a non-stop service as well as a taking away some connex traffic (e.g. to Oz or a few other asian destinations) from competition.
If they offer competitive through fares to provincial airports they will also boost loads as quite some passengers from abroad choose other airlines and self connect to Cebu Pacific on the domestic sectors despite the hassle connected with terminal transfer and other LCC-related issues !

But with NAIA being congested as it is for some time PR will have a tough job to make MNL a viable transit option for travellers.

I know quite a number of people who choose CX and SQ/MI to avoid transiting in MNL.
And these people usually pay a considerable premium for the convenience of through checking luggage to CEB/DVO/CRK and having all sectors booked on a single ticket !

Just go figure why CX in particular is so strong in CEB ...
They do not generate the high fares (and volume) from OFW´s working in HKG to warrant daily B777/B744/A340 flights

If PR (and NAIA) get it right they will bite a significant piece off CX´s piece of the cake ...

[Edited 2013-09-15 06:04:23]


I miss the sound of rolls royce darts and speys
User currently offlineYVRSpeedBird From Canada, joined Nov 2011, 82 posts, RR: 0
Reply 34, posted (10 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 9260 times:

This is great news as I always believed that PAL should return to Europe, albeit a conservative, calculated expansion. LHR is a good first step as the UK is the largest inbound market to the Philippines, and hosts a large Filipino population. Having said that, it's not going to be a walk in the park for them, and I could think of a few "problems" they will encounter.

Some of my thoughts:

-The early departure in Manila does not provide connections for those flying from other parts of the country. A lot of overseas Filipinos, those in the UK included, do not just come from Manila or Luzon. Only 1 Cebu flight will have connectivity. Coming from somewhere else will entail an overnight in Manila. This will be the advantage of the Gulf carriers & CX, SQ, TG, MH, KL, etc... who all have afternoon-evening departures from Manila. The inconvenience of changing terminals is nothing compared to the cost & hassle of having to overnight in Manila.

-The 77W is too big of a plane for the market if they just rely on O&D. PR does not have feed in LHR, just like MNL on the outbound flight as mentioned above. And let's face it, PR will never be a player on LHR-Australia/SEAsia. MNL is not a connecting hub, & this is the domain of the stronger carriers of the respective countries. What I see here is while the Philippines remains a FAA Cat 2 country, the 77Ws will be placed somewhere until they are allowed to serve LAX/SFO with those planes. PR's hands are tied when it comes to the right aircraft size - MNL/LHR would be perfect for the A340, but the cost of operating that plane on this stage length may be prohibitive. They haven't decided on a replacement for this aircraft yet, but I think the 787-8, although smaller, would be perfect because from this point forward every new PR service would be an experiment with no guarantee for success. I've always said it, and I'll say it again - any city in the world that needs/wants service to Manila is already well-served via connections on other carriers. PR must offer something other than just price because no amount of "non-stop convenience" will beat the frequency, service, price, etc... of the EK's, QR's, SQ's, CX's of the world.

There is room for PR to enter MNL-Europe, but there will be headwinds (better slot times for connections in Manila, etc.) and like I said, they need to acquire the right aircraft. And PR's management must understand that any new service will take a while to mature and develop. I just hope they don't give up easily if they don't see the fast, early returns like they did with YYZ, PER, DEL - and now JED too before the service has even started. The airline business is long-term, and short-term flip-flopping does not help them.


User currently offlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4781 posts, RR: 1
Reply 35, posted (10 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 9204 times:

Quoting MHG (Reply 33):
It will depend on whether they are able to charge a certain premium for offering a non-stop service as well as a taking away some connex traffic (e.g. to Oz or a few other asian destinations) from competition.
If they offer competitive through fares to provincial airports they will also boost loads as quite some passengers from abroad choose other airlines and self connect to Cebu Pacific on the domestic sectors despite the hassle connected with terminal transfer and other LCC-related issues !

[.....]

I know quite a number of people who choose CX and SQ/MI to avoid transiting in MNL.
And these people usually pay a considerable premium for the convenience of through checking luggage to CEB/DVO/CRK and having all sectors booked on a single ticket !

The fight is on...    ...

http://philippineairspace.blogspot.s...loys-counter-offensive-to-lhr.html

Quote:
" In a bid to push Philippine Airlines(PAL) out of the London - Manila market, the Hong Kong-based carrier is starting a fare war against the flag carrier to secure its market dominance in the Philippines.

The United Kingdom (UK) is the biggest source of tourists arrivals from the European Union. Last year, more than 113,000 British tourists were recorded other than the visiting 250,000 overseas Filipinos.

Data from the Immigration Department discloses Cathay Pacific(CX) as the airline of choice for flights to London holding 45% of the London-Manila traffic, while the big three Middle East carriers accounts for the next 40%.

There are roughly 1000 passengers a day departing or arriving in Manila from the UK majority of whom are Overseas Filipinos, the statistics showed."


Quoting MHG (Reply 33):

But with NAIA being congested as it is for some time PR will have a tough job to make MNL a viable transit option for travellers.

[.....]

If PR (and NAIA) get it right they will bite a significant piece off CX´s piece of the cake ...

They're trying these to address those issues.....

http://business.inquirer.net/143037/...n-on-new-terminal-at-clark-airport

http://business.inquirer.net/137791/...or-to-rehabilitate-naia-terminal-3


Hopefully, everything will have been in place and NAIA's NAVAIDs modernization is fully functioning by that time to offset the limitations of the airport's single runway    .


Quoting YVRSpeedBird (Reply 34):
-The 77W is too big of a plane for the market if they just rely on O&D.

My comment in #7 notwithstanding, they may get very good load factors during the holidays and until the novelty wears off. For the long stretch, I agree.

Quoting YVRSpeedBird (Reply 34):
MNL/LHR would be perfect for the A340, but the cost of operating that plane on this stage length may be prohibitive. They haven't decided on a replacement for this aircraft yet, but I think the 787-8, although smaller, would be perfect

Or the 789 to ease pricing pressure and for more flexibility.

Quoting YVRSpeedBird (Reply 34):
I just hope they don't give up easily if they don't see the fast, early returns like they did with PER, DEL - and now JED too before the service has even started. The airline business is long-term, and short-term flip-flopping does not help them.

And this is where they're most vulnerable...PR doesn't have very deep pockets and strong government support like their competitors.

[Edited 2013-09-16 04:22:55]


"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7172 posts, RR: 13
Reply 36, posted (10 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 9134 times:

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 28):
The body deserves a break after being cooped up in a plane for 12.5 hours. Relax and share a bit of those sterlings in MNL...it's more fun

And USU/MPH/CEB only 1h away. I agree. it's better to stop and go for a snorkel.


User currently offlineMHG From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 777 posts, RR: 1
Reply 37, posted (10 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 8822 times:

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 35):
The fight is on... ...

Well, other than in this article I haven´t seen any signs of a fare war.
Makes me wonder what´s the source ???
When checking fares I discovered CX so far has not yet tried to undercut PR on the LON market ...
Maybe someone at CX has publicly threatened to make a fare war  
But it seems logical as CX will loose passengers to PR as CX had almost a monopoly by offering the fastest connection between Europe and the Philippines.
A major part of loads between HKG and MNL/CEB is generated from european passengers.
So, they cannot sit and wait ...



I miss the sound of rolls royce darts and speys
User currently offlinecrownvic From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1865 posts, RR: 5
Reply 38, posted (10 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 8507 times:

Quoting TC957 (Reply 22):
Use a reputable travel agent then, Crownvic. Your payment card will be processed by them instead and the booking will be made by them on a CRS system.

I just think that I should not have to do that. If I can book CEB, Zest and Tiger from the U.S., why can't I book PAL? So how do you establish a reputable travel agent overseas, if I were to take your advice? I am sure there are plenty in the Philippines, but do you have one you recommend?

Quoting nzrich (Reply 32):

Yes I know the feeling trying to buy an airline ticket in the us is a nightmare also if that airline does not serve the country that you live in . But they take the card over the phone . Only a few seem to take cards from all over the world regarless if they serve your country or not . So it is not just a PAL problem .

Please read my response above. I generally have fairly good results booking with foreign carriers, especially the major ones. PAL is the oldest Asian trans-Pacific airline and should be more on the ball than this. Personally, I see no excuse for this, especially if I am able to book on other Philippines carriers.


User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3130 posts, RR: 5
Reply 39, posted (10 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 8334 times:

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 28):
but the morning departure from MNL, does not allow for connections other than some domestic markets. Unless this service is expected to be almost exclusively O/D.
Quoting Devilfish (Reply 28):
Would you still say this if they flew the HGW A333 on a one-stopper to LHR like the GC route in #7?

Yes, and I guess PR is jumping in with both feet. They will not capture market share with a one stop flight, then people would stick with CX. The one thing PR has is non-stop, and the 77W is the best plane, currently in the PR fleet to compete with the other bigger carriers. Lets not forget Philippinos love to bring boxes of goods when visiting home, on top of that, cargo may help pay for the gas on those flights until passenger counts rise. If PR can get a later flight time out of MNL by two hours, they could feed connections from GUM/SE Asia/Australia, that may add 30-50 more people a day.



AA-AC-AQ-AS-BN-BD-CO-CS-DL-EA-EZ-HA-HP-KL-KN-MP-MW-NK-NW-OO-OZ-PA-PS-QX-RC-RH-RW-SA-TG-TW-UA-US-VS-WA-WC-WN
User currently offlinesassiciai From UK - Scotland, joined Jan 2013, 334 posts, RR: 0
Reply 40, posted (10 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 8317 times:

Quoting crownvic (Reply 38):
So how do you establish a reputable travel agent overseas, if I were to take your advice? I am sure there are plenty in the Philippines, but do you have one you recommend?

There are loads of on-line booking companies on the Net. Just type "cheap flights" into Google and you'll be offered thousands.

Or use www.momondo.com - it doesn't search airline sites, it searches all the other on-line booking sites. I have used momondo very often - and it will more often than not end up with a cheaper fare than available direct on the airline's own site. Via momondo, I have booked with a variety of on-line bookers, and never had any problems to date

Particularly on 1 or more - stop journeys, it will often propose some very surprising offers that you could not imagine! I have 0 experience of it in the USA!


User currently offlineYVRSpeedBird From Canada, joined Nov 2011, 82 posts, RR: 0
Reply 41, posted (10 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 8198 times:

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 35):
And this is where they're most vulnerable...PR doesn't have very deep pockets and strong government support like their competitors.

Actually they have very deep pockets now thanks to San Miguel's investment. But do they have the competent management to match? It remains to be seen... If you look at the resume's of their top executives, none of these people have professional, international airline experience. I hope they don't burn San Miguel's coffers to the ground...


User currently onlinestlgph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9303 posts, RR: 25
Reply 42, posted (10 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 7986 times:

Quoting YVRSpeedBird (Reply 34):

This is great news as I always believed that PAL should return to Europe, albeit a conservative, calculated expansion. LHR is a good first step as the UK is the largest inbound market to the Philippines, and hosts a large Filipino population.

Bloomberg reports Ramon Ang said additional cities are planned - they hope to eventually return to 5 cities including Paris, Rome, and Amsterdam.



Eternal darkness we all should dread. It's hard to party when you're dead.
User currently offlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4781 posts, RR: 1
Reply 43, posted (10 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 7742 times:

Quoting MHG (Reply 33):
I know quite a number of people who choose CX and SQ/MI to avoid transiting in MNL.

Maybe this could go some way in convincing them to spend a little more time in MNL...   ...

http://philippineairspace.blogspot.s...al-unveils-new-mabuhay-lounge.html

.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7421/9770621846_79f1757419.jpg

.
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2839/9770621626_928e9a7400.jpg

http://www.businessmirror.com.ph/ind...s/19504-pal-has-new-mabuhay-lounge

Quoting YVRSpeedBird (Reply 41):
Actually they have very deep pockets now thanks to San Miguel's investment.

SMC may have deep pockets...but very deep on a par with the competition?            

Quoting YVRSpeedBird (Reply 41):
But do they have the competent management to match? It remains to be seen... If you look at the resume's of their top executives, none of these people have professional, international airline experience.

I'm beginning to think they're on the right track with this move.....

http://philippineairspace.blogspot.s...ers-aircraft-leasing-business.html

Quote:
" Southeast Asia's largest conglomerate San Miguel Corporation opens an off-shore aircraft-leasing company to support the long haul fleet requirement of Philippine Airlines.

San Miguel Leasing plans to put up in its book an aircraft order for four Boeing 777-300ER, ten 777-900s and ten Airbus A350-900's aircraft from both manufacturers.

SMC President Ramon S. Ang said the Cayman-based company has market capitalization of 1 billion US dollars.

Initial investments of $500 million was put up by SMC while the another $500 will come from the undisclosed buyer of Lucio Tan's 51 percent stake at Philippine Airlines.

SMC admitted earlier that they are in talks with Japan's largest carrier, All Nippon Airways, for a 40% stake. Japanese Company, like Kirin Brewery owns substantial share of SMC shares. The remaining PAL shares is expected to be offered to the stock market."


http://www.philstar.com/business/201...rms-500-m-aircraft-leasing-company

Could those four 77Ws be new - from the UFOs discussed in another thread...and on top of their previous six?  .

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5453/9779856013_93dfa116b3_z.jpg


A bit disappointing that the B789 is not included in the mix...   .




[Edited 2013-09-17 18:46:59]


"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7172 posts, RR: 13
Reply 44, posted (10 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 7626 times:

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 43):
SMC admitted earlier that they are in talks with Japan's largest carrier, All Nippon Airways, for a 40% stake.

I would love it if they became a Star Alliance member as well, as a result of the shareholding. That would suit me down to the ground.


User currently offline6thfreedom From Bermuda, joined Sep 2004, 3323 posts, RR: 20
Reply 45, posted (10 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 7224 times:

Let's see how long this lasts....

how many changes have there been with PAL just in the last 6 months.

Toronto starts, then is pulled.
Perth services last 3 months.
Jeddah is on, then off.
Dubai and adu dhabi announced as daily, then go back to 5pw.
delhi via BKK pulled.


while these might be great long term strategies, in seems PAL is hell bent on burning cash by not given flights at least a 4-6 month selling window, nor prepared to take the first year start up losses.

let's see what happen.


User currently offlineAkiestar From Philippines, joined May 2009, 784 posts, RR: 0
Reply 46, posted (10 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 7196 times:

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 45):
Toronto starts, then is pulled.

YYZ was not pulled and is still flying.

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 45):
Jeddah is on, then off.

According to what I've read in local forums, this is due to the Philippines-Saudi Arabia bilateral, which imposes aircraft restrictions (only PR A330s may fly to Saudi Arabia, and I believe there are further restrictions as to what specific A330s may be used). There's a belief that Saudi Arabia's restrictions are in place to protect SV, which benefits immensely from the one million Filipinos who live there and have to shuttle back and forth between the two countries.

As far as I know though, JED is still well on the table.

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 45):
Dubai and adu dhabi announced as daily, then go back to 5pw.

This is due to aircraft availability, and frequencies should go to daily as more of PR's new A330s arrive.

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 45):
delhi via BKK pulled.

They did say this was due to poor yields. At least they were forthright about it.


User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7172 posts, RR: 13
Reply 47, posted (10 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 7113 times:

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 46):
They did say this was due to poor yields. At least they were forthright about it.

And to be fair, it is the indian market. It's notoriously low yielding for many airlines.


User currently offline6thfreedom From Bermuda, joined Sep 2004, 3323 posts, RR: 20
Reply 48, posted (10 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 7069 times:

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 46):
This is due to aircraft availability, and frequencies should go to daily as more of PR's new A330s arrive.
Quoting Akiestar (Reply 46):
this is due to the Philippines-Saudi Arabia bilateral, which imposes aircraft restrictions (only PR A330s may fly to Saudi Arabia, and I believe there are further restrictions as to what specific A330s may be used).
Quoting Akiestar (Reply 46):
They did say this was due to poor yields.

so what you can confirm is that in all cases this has been due to PAL's poor decision making or research.
none of the above should have occurred if they did their research.

some airlines sometimes get it wrong, others it seems get it wrong all too often.


User currently offlineYVRSpeedBird From Canada, joined Nov 2011, 82 posts, RR: 0
Reply 49, posted (10 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 6824 times:

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 48):
so what you can confirm is that in all cases this has been due to PAL's poor decision making or research.
none of the above should have occurred if they did their research.

some airlines sometimes get it wrong, others it seems get it wrong all too often.

And that's why I'll stand by my observation that PAL management is incompetent! When the nonstop service to YYZ was discontinued abruptly (barely 2 months since launch) in favour of a YVR stop, it was rumoured that PAL did not have rights to overfly certain airspace, which made the long polar route not viable. I'm sorry, but shouldn't they have done their research before launching such a flight? Anyway, I don't buy their sorry excuse because let's face it - those wanting to fly YYZ-MNL have a choice between CX, KE, AC, DL & EK. I've flown PR 118/119 twice, both times getting on/off in YVR, and the YYZ tag-on had less than 100 pax. So there you have it - despite it's large Filipino population, YYZ is already well served by other carriers..... and the same story goes for LHR and every other European destination they intend to fly to. I am not saying that their expansion will not work - because PR has always had success serving a niche which is O&D traffic to/from Manila (look at their success in SFO & LAX). But they will need the right aircraft, time slots (for domestic connections within the Philippines), pricing, marketing & perseverance (PER anyone?).


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24906 posts, RR: 22
Reply 50, posted (10 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 6629 times:

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 46):
Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 45):
Toronto starts, then is pulled.

YYZ was not pulled and is still flying.

But wasn't the initial service nonstop? I expect that's what "pulled" is referring to.


User currently offlineyellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6052 posts, RR: 2
Reply 51, posted (10 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 6596 times:

Quoting crownvic (Reply 38):
I just think that I should not have to do that. If I can book CEB, Zest and Tiger from the U.S., why can't I book PAL?

It is common to have these issues....mainly a card processor and bank issue...may even be your bank. There are hotspots for fraud and banks will often flag or deny any transaction from that country unless you notify your bank.

For example I can't use my CIBC Visa card in El Salvador unless I tell the bank in advance.



When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlinecrownvic From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1865 posts, RR: 5
Reply 52, posted (10 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 6626 times:

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 51):
Quoting crownvic (Reply 38):
I just think that I should not have to do that. If I can book CEB, Zest and Tiger from the U.S., why can't I book PAL?

It is common to have these issues....mainly a card processor and bank issue...may even be your bank. There are hotspots for fraud and banks will often flag or deny any transaction from that country unless you notify your bank.

For example I can't use my CIBC Visa card in El Salvador unless I tell the bank in advance.

I pre-called my cc bank and they made it very clear that the charge to PAL would be opened and actually pre-approved a dollar amount similar to what the fare would be. Still didn't work...I am not a "rookie" traveler and have been going through this with PAL for years. It is solely incompetence on their part because if you call PAL on their res line, there is never a problem charging your card. It is isolated to web site bookings only. Unfortunately, there are many Internet fares that their res department will not honor, but sometimes they do. It would just be nice if they fix this problem once and for all.


User currently offline6thfreedom From Bermuda, joined Sep 2004, 3323 posts, RR: 20
Reply 53, posted (10 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 6499 times:

http://www.philippineflightnetwork.c...ppine-airlines-ending-toronto.html

http://www.interaksyon.com/article/6...-service-reduces-vancouver-flights

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 50):
But wasn't the initial service nonstop? I expect that's what "pulled" is referring to.

when you see articles such as this it doesn't give you much hope that there is a long term strategy on this sector.

watch this space - my bet is that PAL will pull YYZ due to under performance, and use the aircraft on another sector thinking it is going to be a winner.


User currently offlinePietPiloot From Netherlands, joined Aug 2006, 39 posts, RR: 0
Reply 54, posted (10 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 6348 times:

It suprisses me that nobody is talking about AMS anymore. Is it not in de planning any longer now that LHR will be served (using the flightnumber that was reserved for AMS)?

User currently offlineAkiestar From Philippines, joined May 2009, 784 posts, RR: 0
Reply 55, posted (10 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 6282 times:

Quoting PietPiloot (Reply 54):
It suprisses me that nobody is talking about AMS anymore. Is it not in de planning any longer now that LHR will be served (using the flightnumber that was reserved for AMS)?

As far as I know, AMS is currently hampered by scheduling issues.


User currently offlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4781 posts, RR: 1
Reply 56, posted (10 months 2 weeks ago) and read 6177 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 50):
But wasn't the initial service nonstop? I expect that's what "pulled" is referring to.

That's "stretching" his meaning a tad...he restates.....

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 53):
my bet is that PAL will pull YYZ due to under performance



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4781 posts, RR: 1
Reply 57, posted (10 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 5474 times:

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 46):
This is due to aircraft availability, and frequencies should go to daily as more of PR's new A330s arrive.

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3681/9619975967_771fe6d5f3_z.jpg

That is looking to be the case based on this blog.....

http://philippineairspace.blogspot.se/

Quote:
"Toulouse - Philippine Airlines (PAL) gains delivery slots after the European plane maker decided to raise the production rate for its A330 Family to ten aircraft a month beginning April in 2013.

As a result, one more A330 is destined for PAL in 2013 after Airbus approved its request to amend delivery slots for one more aircraft arising from increase in production schedules.

[.....]

Ang said the new A330 will be used for the inaugural flight to Abu Dhabi on October 1, marking the flag carrier's re-entry to the Middle East after 3 years.

'The A330 is earmarked for our Middle East route' Ang said."



Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 48):
so what you can confirm is that in all cases this has been due to PAL's poor decision making or research.
none of the above should have occurred if they did their research.

Based on the above, their decision doesn't seem to be poor at all.

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 53):
when you see articles such as this it doesn't give you much hope that there is a long term strategy on this sector.

On the contrary, they do have a more forward looking vision.....

Quote:
"Ismael Augusto Gozon, PAL Senior Vice President For Operations said PAL expects to receive five more A330-300s in the fourth quarter instead of the original four, with the 5th frame to be delivered in December after Airbus offered the slot to the airline Wednesday.

Gozon said that with the new delivery schedule its expansion to the Middle East will proceed as scheduled.

[.....]

Gozon said they intend to fly the 5 new A330s for delivery this year all to the Middle East, with the last Middle East bound aircraft to be delivered in February next year. The remaining four frames to be delivered in 2014 are for services to Korea, Japan, and Australia.

The next tranche of A330 deliveries for 2015 will be the 242t variant for services to Europe, Hawaii and Canada.

Airbus expects the newest 242t variant of the A330 to reach London and Vancouver comfortably with the MTOW range of 6,100nm at 300 passengers configuration."



.....and refuse to be fazed by surmountable hurdles.



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineYVRSpeedBird From Canada, joined Nov 2011, 82 posts, RR: 0
Reply 58, posted (10 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 5137 times:

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 57):
Based on the above, their decision doesn't seem to be poor at all.
Quoting Devilfish (Reply 57):
On the contrary, they do have a more forward looking vision.....
Quoting Devilfish (Reply 57):
.....and refuse to be fazed by surmountable hurdles.

To the general public, especially those who drank Ramon Ang's Kool Aid, your statements above are true. But to knowledgeable industry insiders, no.


User currently offlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4781 posts, RR: 1
Reply 59, posted (10 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 4656 times:

Quoting YVRSpeedBird (Reply 58):
To the general public, especially those who drank Ramon Ang's Kool Aid, your statements above are true. But to knowledgeable industry insiders, no.

I must admit that I don't have deep aviation specific knowledge, nor do I have any special insight into PR's inner workings. Would you care to share information that could enlighten us all? I mean, it's not as if PAL's situation is a tightly guarded state secret.....

http://businessmirror.com.ph/index.p...needs-9-5b-for-fleet-modernization

Quote:
"PAL’s parent firm, PAL Holdings Inc., in August reported that its net loss for the three months ending in June stood at P499.8 million, from last year’s P376 million, on account of lower revenues.

PAL’s fiscal year ends in March.

Revenues for the first quarter of its fiscal year amounted to P18.54 billion, from P20.7 billion during the same period last year. The decrease was attributable mainly to the unfavorable passenger-revenue performance during the quarter as a result of the 21.5-percent drop in passenger traffic.

PAL President Ramon Ang said the airline will do better next year.

'PAL’s problem is high cost of maintenance because of old airplanes. We addressed that by our reflleeting. So, we will wait for the delivery of the airplanes before we see results. I think we will have lots of improvement by next year,' said Ang."



As to drinking RSA's Kool Aid...I much prefer these by a mile...   ...

.
http://www.foodwinenet.com/wp-content/uploads/icecoldSMBPale_main.jpg

.....but sadly am limited to this now...   ...

.
http://cdn.beerstore.com.au/sites/be...l-light-beer-online-1357600977.jpg



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineAkiestar From Philippines, joined May 2009, 784 posts, RR: 0
Reply 60, posted (10 months 4 days ago) and read 4584 times:

Quoting YVRSpeedBird (Reply 58):
To the general public, especially those who drank Ramon Ang's Kool Aid, your statements above are true. But to knowledgeable industry insiders, no.

Like we're all "knowledgeable industry insiders". Sheesh.

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 59):
I must admit that I don't have deep aviation specific knowledge, nor do I have any special insight into PR's inner workings. Would you care to share information that could enlighten us all? I mean, it's not as if PAL's situation is a tightly guarded state secret.....

I have yet to determine what is YVRSpeedBird's basis for his claims. If he has knowledge that proves that PR is essentially making route decisions on a dartboard, or is shooting itself in the foot with the A321, or claims that anyone who doesn't believe him is drinking the Ramon Ang Kool-Aid, then by all means, he should enlighten us, despite his long business experience in Europe and his current employment as an airline pilot.

I will readily admit that I am not an airline insider, but there is a difference here between being an actual PR insider (and has access to the pertinent data), and acting like one based on conjecture. I won't make judgements on how the actual analysis is made, but I am bothered, and rightfully so.


User currently offlineMeltraveller From Australia, joined May 2009, 14 posts, RR: 0
Reply 61, posted (10 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 4192 times:

PR hasn't yet indicated what its Australia - London via MNL fares on one PNR will be. I hope that it does this soon.

User currently offlinehybridace101 From Philippines, joined Mar 2010, 25 posts, RR: 0
Reply 62, posted (10 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 4162 times:

^^
If you look at the timetable, you will see why...  


User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7401 posts, RR: 17
Reply 63, posted (10 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4091 times:

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 17):
Off-peak time slots such as those are available without any problem.

I am not sure of the Winter 2013-14 Season situation. However for Summer 2013 the LHR slot coordinator, Airport Coordination Ltd is reporting:

"Air Transport Movements Cap: 9,530 air transport movements per week"

"Heathrow Summer 2013 Allocation of Air Transport Movements: Total 9,530"

See pages 2 and 3 on the *LHR S13 Start of Season" report here:

http://www.acl-uk.org/reportsStatistics.aspx?id=98&subjectId=33

So at the start of the current season there were no more than zero unallocated LHR slots

At the start of the Winter 2012-13 Season ACL report that the weekly ATM cap was 9,296 and that the allocated slots was also 9,296. [Note here that there are always fewer "Winter" than "Summer" season LHR slots.] So the prospects of there being any unallocated slots at the start of the coming winter season must be very close to zero.


User currently offlineMeltraveller From Australia, joined May 2009, 14 posts, RR: 0
Reply 64, posted (10 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3972 times:

hybridace101, other airlines such as those from Korea offer Australia to Europe fares with a compulsory overnight in ICN (for example) so PR's requirement for northbound passengers to overnight in MNL ought not preclude such fares.

User currently offlineYVRSpeedBird From Canada, joined Nov 2011, 82 posts, RR: 0
Reply 65, posted (10 months 7 hours ago) and read 3643 times:

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 59):
I must admit that I don't have deep aviation specific knowledge, nor do I have any special insight into PR's inner workings. Would you care to share information that could enlighten us all? I mean, it's not as if PAL's situation is a tightly guarded state secret.....
Quoting Akiestar (Reply 60):
I have yet to determine what is YVRSpeedBird's basis for his claims. If he has knowledge that proves that PR is essentially making route decisions on a dartboard, or is shooting itself in the foot with the A321, or claims that anyone who doesn't believe him is drinking the Ramon Ang Kool-Aid, then by all means, he should enlighten us, despite his long business experience in Europe and his current employment as an airline pilot.

I will readily admit that I am not an airline insider, but there is a difference here between being an actual PR insider (and has access to the pertinent data), and acting like one based on conjecture. I won't make judgements on how the actual analysis is made, but I am bothered, and rightfully so.

No such thing as a guarded state secret. And I never claimed to be a PR insider. I just happen to know people within the organization who are both for & against the expansion, as well as airline managers & analysts abroad who are scratching their heads. What I said was my own analysis, and I share the same thoughts as the Centre for Aviation.

http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...new-london-heathrow-service-128958

Anyway, here's the little insight that will make me sound like a broken record:

The 77Ws that PAL have were not their first choice of aircraft. Rather, they had no choice because they still had a substantial, non-refundable deposit with Boeing for the 744s they ordered but never took because of the 1998 shutdown. In hindsight, they realized that these were the perfect aircraft for SFO & LAX, however the FAA Cat 2 rating prevented them from sending these birds over there. So, YVR was upgraded, as were MEL & SYD. But then the birds kept coming while the country was still in Cat. 2, so they were pressured to find other destinations.

Hence YYZ was served with such a short lead time (just like LHR now), first with 3 x a week non-stop, then supplemented by 4 x a week via YVR to make a daily service just one month after launch. But then the 145,000 plus Filipinos residing in that city & its catchment area was not enough to fill the flights, so the non-stop was discontinued only 3 months since launch and the service was pulled back to 3 x a week via YVR. It had nothing to do with lack of overflight rights as Akiestar has claimed because that is a pay per use routing, meaning that in their haste to put these birds into service, they didn't do their due diligence & market research of the route dynamics. Then after just 8 months since launch, an announcement was made to drop YYZ, only for them to reconsider within 2 weeks. That is where my dartboard analysis that Akiestar claims stems from. Sure... unsure... flip-flopping style management which you cannot do in a big multinational corporation such as an airline.

PAL is a niche, O&D carrier first & foremost, and this needs to be taken account when it looks at expansion. It does not have the luxury of a network like CX or KE, so you will not find a lot of passengers flying YYZ-MNL-XXX to fill the rest of the seats. And those 145,000 Filipinos over at YYZ also have choice of 1- or 2-stop service to MNL via CX, AC, KE, DL, EK, etc... The overseas Filipino diaspora is very price-sensitive, and PAL is usually more expensive than its competitors on the long markets because of the supposed convenience of non-stop... which isn't even the case with YYZ anymore.

Why is this relevant to the topic? Because LHR has almost the same market dynamic as YYZ. The UK has around 200,000 Filipino residents, and for years those people have already developed loyalty with the Gulf carriers, CX, SQ, TG, MH, etc... just like the Filipinos from YYZ. The underlying difference between LHR & YYZ though is the 145,000 Filipinos at YYZ reside in the greater Toronto area, whereas the 200,000 Filipinos in the UK are spread out in the entire UK. And this is a very valid point in my argument because those from MAN, NCL, EDI, GLA & other cities have already enjoyed the cheaper & convenient EK, QR, SQ, KL services from their respective cities to MNL. Heck, even Londoners can fly those other airlines for a cheaper price than PAL, with better service & product. PAL does not offer local connections in the UK, so they would have to purchase separate tickets & build their own connection at LHR (expensive, costly, and inconvenient).

Where LHR has an advantage over YYZ is the growing business & tourism ties between the UK & the Philippines, for which YVR is the natural market in Canada & not YYZ, hence the success of that route even with only 45,000 Filipinos residing in YVR. And that is why I am not skeptical with MNL-LHR as I was with MNL-YYZ. Not to mention that LHR is about 3-4 hours shorter than YYZ, so much less expensive to operate. I even said in my post above that PAL needs to return to Europe, and LHR is a great first step.

My tiny skepticism, as I have mentioned above, is that the 77W is not the right aircraft for the route, mainly because of its size. My take on their whole fleet plan is that if the Philippines gets the FAA upgrade, 5 of the 77Ws will serve SFO 7 x a week & LAX 10 x a week, 1 will serve YVR-YYZ 3 x a week & Europe will get all the A340 until the new 242t A330's arrive in 2015. And that's also a question of Airbus fulfilling its claims on the improved performance of the A330... and PAL having a less dense configuration.

Now, with regards to the A321 on Akiestar's other thread... I didn't say they are shooting themselves in the foot because it is the right aircraft for domestic & regional routes thanks to its superior economics. What I said was that they did not outfit the aircraft properly for the mission it was intended to serve.


User currently offline6thfreedom From Bermuda, joined Sep 2004, 3323 posts, RR: 20
Reply 66, posted (9 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3425 times:

Quoting YVRSpeedBird (Reply 65):
Why is this relevant to the topic? Because LHR has almost the same market dynamic as YYZ. The UK has around 200,000 Filipino residents, and for years those people have already developed loyalty with the Gulf carriers, CX, SQ, TG, MH, etc... just like the Filipinos from YYZ. The underlying difference between LHR & YYZ though is the 145,000 Filipinos at YYZ reside in the greater Toronto area, whereas the 200,000 Filipinos in the UK are spread out in the entire UK. And this is a very valid point in my argument because those from MAN, NCL, EDI, GLA & other cities have already enjoyed the cheaper & convenient EK, QR, SQ, KL services from their respective cities to MNL. Heck, even Londoners can fly those other airlines for a cheaper price than PAL, with better service & product. PAL does not offer local connections in the UK, so they would have to purchase separate tickets & build their own connection at LHR (expensive, costly, and inconvenient).

The other issue with the Filipino market is that it tends to travel around the 'traditional' holiday peaks of Easter and Christmas, with the rest year generating far less demand.


User currently offlineMeltraveller From Australia, joined May 2009, 14 posts, RR: 0
Reply 67, posted (9 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 3048 times:

Does anyone have any window (pun intended) into how PR's bookings are going for MNL - LHR and when Australia to LHR fares may be released into the market, if ever?

User currently offlineYVRSpeedBird From Canada, joined Nov 2011, 82 posts, RR: 0
Reply 68, posted (9 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 3010 times:

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 66):
The other issue with the Filipino market is that it tends to travel around the 'traditional' holiday peaks of Easter and Christmas, with the rest year generating far less demand.

So true! Even PAL's US fortresses of LAX & SFO get downgraded to A343 on certain days during the lean months such as now.


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