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Lufthansa Said To Buy B779 & A359 Aircraft Part 1  
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12074 posts, RR: 34
Posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 49838 times:

Lufthansa will split an order for about 50 wide-body aircraft between Airbus and Boeing, a purchase with a list value of at least $14 billion, people with knowledge of the matter said.

The twin-engine jets will be Boeing’s new 777-9X, which is due to fly by decade’s end, and Airbus’s A350-900, said two of the people, who asked not to be identified because the details aren’t yet public. An announcement may come as soon as next week, the people said.

Story:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...ing-airbus-split-on-jet-order.html

[Edited 2013-09-13 10:39:41]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
260 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFlyingAY From Finland, joined Jun 2007, 706 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 49788 times:

Was the 787 too small for LH? The 787-10 that was large enough maybe had too short range? What does this mean when it comes to the 747-8i fleet? Interesting order and congrats to all parties!

User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8420 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 49685 times:
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Great news for Boeing to have Luftnansa as the 777-9X launch customer. This time hopefully airlines will buy the plane since the 747-8 has been a dog.

User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3364 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 49621 times:

Another carrier splits their A/C order between the two giant aircraft companies. It just goes to show, that each plane manufacturer does has something unique to bring to the table. It seems to be the trend lately, taking a bit of A & a bit of B.


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User currently offlineap305 From India, joined Jan 2000, 588 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 49570 times:

After moaning about excessive aircraft range capability, LH is going to buy the 2 most capable aircraft in their respective classes. I always thought this order will split but for the a350-1000 and the 787-10.

User currently offlinechiad From Norway, joined May 2006, 1160 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 49237 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
Lufthansa will split an order for about 50 wide-body aircraft between Airbus and Boeing

Great news!
I find it pleasing when a major order is split and both manufactures get rewarded for the sales efforts.
I am looking forward to the actual numbers involved.


User currently offlinewingman From Seychelles, joined May 1999, 2288 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 49245 times:

"Boeing jets will make up the majority of the order". If that's true then I will be stunned. I never thought I'd see the day come to be honest.

User currently offlineholzmann From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 229 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 49086 times:

Wow. What breaking news!

Honored just to post in this thread  


User currently offlinesassiciai From UK - Scotland, joined Jan 2013, 355 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 48882 times:

Is this 100% credible and accurate?

Has that fat lady already sung? If so, what did she sing?   

Who would bet his house on this?


User currently offlineiahmark From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 51 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 48832 times:

Quoting wingman (Reply 6):
"Boeing jets will make up the majority of the order". If that's true then I will be stunned. I never thought I'd see the day come to be honest.

If this is true my best guess would be 30 for the 777X with the remaining 20 for the A350-1000.


User currently offlinewilliam From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1303 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 48770 times:

Seems like Luftftansa is whittling down the aircraft types. What present aircraft will this order replace?

User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6951 posts, RR: 46
Reply 11, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 48708 times:

I still am surprised that after commenting that the manufacturers are making their planes to suit the ME carriers; i.e. much more range than the European carriers need, LH ignores the plane that seems to fit their bill perfectly (the 7810) and buys the much longer ranged competitor from Airbus. But who said anyone had to be logical or consistent? And what is the advantage of the A359 over the 7810, except for more range?


The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2804 posts, RR: 59
Reply 12, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 48711 times:

If this is true (and there is reason to believe it is) it means there will be a tit for tat division of larger aircraft.

Below 300 seats Boeing 787, between 300-400 Aibus 350, between 400-500 Boeing 779 and then the A380 beyound 500. Amazing how they have divided the world of long-haul aviation  Wow! . It will be no longer boring 333 below 330 pax and 777 beyond until you hit the 380. An almost perfect division of the market, perhaps DOJ want to block the division  Wow! .

There will be severe fighting in every segment border and I am sure Airbus is starting to look at a -1100 



Non French in France
User currently offlineHeavierthanair From Switzerland, joined Oct 2000, 798 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 48525 times:

G'day

If true I am surprised.

Then again LH always stated they do not want to rely on a single supplier.

They also have the dilemma with the 20 options for the 747-8. Selecting the 777-9 gives them a more capable aircraft and being the / a launch customer they must have gotten an excellent deal on those while resolving the issue with the 747-8 options.

The 350-900 being the given replacement for the 340-300 is no surprise.

So far so good. But the 50 aircraft order talked about will by no means cover all the replacement for the existing A330-300 / A340-300, 340-600 and B747-400 fleet. Having chosen the A 350 as being part of their fleet LH will have the option for any model of the series, so surely some of the A340-600 replacements will be A350-1000's while others will be replaced with 777-9's. Same at the upper end where some more B747-400's will be replaced with A380's.

Were they not going to order some more of those earlier this year? Maybe another part of the whole deal, we will see when it gets officially announced.  


Cheers

Peter



"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." (Albert Einstein, 1879
User currently offlineap305 From India, joined Jan 2000, 588 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 48533 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 12):

There will be severe fighting in every segment border and I am sure Airbus is starting to look at a -1100

Why not a a360?. The technology is there- simply stick an enlarged a350 wing onto a new wider tube and get RR to go ahead with the RB3025 or whatever they were offering for the 777ng.

[Edited 2013-09-13 11:38:28]

User currently offlineSooner787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2013, 314 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 48236 times:

Looking forward to seeing A359's at DFW in the future   

User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12707 posts, RR: 25
Reply 16, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 48100 times:

I'm also a bit surprised by them taking the very long range choices.

Also interesting to note that this is a back-door announcement order for the 777-9, right?

Quoting Heavierthanair (Reply 13):
They also have the dilemma with the 20 options for the 747-8. Selecting the 777-9 gives them a more capable aircraft and being the / a launch customer they must have gotten an excellent deal on those while resolving the issue with the 747-8 options.

There really should be no issue with resolving options. After all, they are just options, which cost little or nothing to the customer to have.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12074 posts, RR: 34
Reply 17, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 48077 times:

Quoting FlyingAY (Reply 1):
Was the 787 too small for LH? The 787-10 that was large enough maybe had too short range? What does this mean when it comes to the 747-8i fleet? Interesting order and congrats to all parties!

I too expected the 787-10 to be part of the deal. Perhaps the payload / range was just a bit too short for LH needs.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 2):
Great news for Boeing to have Luftnansa as the 777-9X launch customer. This time hopefully airlines will buy the plane since the 747-8 has been a dog.

We don't know yet if Lufthansa will become the launch customer of the type. This will depend on when they will take first deliveries.

I think this honor will go to Emirates.

Quoting ap305 (Reply 4):
After moaning about excessive aircraft range capability, LH is going to buy the 2 most capable aircraft in their respective classes. I always thought this order will split but for the a350-1000 and the 787-10.

Ironic, isn't?

Quoting wingman (Reply 6):
"Boeing jets will make up the majority of the order". If that's true then I will be stunned. I never thought I'd see the day come to be honest.

Perhaps the majority of the order in terms of value (the 777-9 is more expensive).

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 11):
I still am surprised that after commenting that the manufacturers are making their planes to suit the ME carriers; i.e. much more range than the European carriers need, LH ignores the plane that seems to fit their bill perfectly (the 7810) and buys the much longer ranged competitor from Airbus. But who said anyone had to be logical or consistent? And what is the advantage of the A359 over the 7810, except for more range?

Yes I'm surprised too.

The A359 has more range thus can fly further at max payload. Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that Lufthansa carries a lot of cargo in the belly of their airplanes. I don't know.

Quoting william (Reply 10):
Seems like Luftftansa is whittling down the aircraft types. What present aircraft will this order replace?

Both A340-300 and A340-600 will be replaced with this order.

Quoting Heavierthanair (Reply 13):
So far so good. But the 50 aircraft order talked about will by no means cover all the replacement for the existing A330-300 / A340-300, 340-600 and B747-400 fleet. Having chosen the A 350 as being part of their fleet LH will have the option for any model of the series, so surely some of the A340-600 replacements will be A350-1000's while others will be replaced with 777-9's. Same at the upper end where some more B747-400's will be replaced with A380's.

The last 20 744 aircraft can be replaced with the remainder 9 A380 and 10 748i aircraft on order.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12707 posts, RR: 25
Reply 18, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 47769 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
Lufthansa will split an order for about 50 wide-body aircraft between Airbus and Boeing

It's also a split for the engine makers too - Rolls for the A350 and GE for the 777X.

The article mentions this order was previously said to be "winner-take-all" contest.

That also makes it harder to comprehend the split.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineProst From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1058 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 47418 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 18):
The article mentions this order was previously said to be "winner-take-all" contest.

The winner is Lufthansa. And they're taking it all!


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12074 posts, RR: 34
Reply 20, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 47044 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 18):
It's also a split for the engine makers too - Rolls for the A350 and GE for the 777X.

Indeed.

The guys at Lufthansa Technik should get excited, doing maintenance on those folding wing tips.

Quoting sassiciai (Reply 8):
Is this 100% credible and accurate?

We have to wait until next week, but such leaks by people "familiar with the matter" turns in 99% of the cases out to be true.

Quoting Prost (Reply 19):
The winner is Lufthansa. And they're taking it all!

  



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinephxa340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 891 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 46948 times:

I am stunned. I would love to know what kind of numbers Boeing is showing to LH for th 779. Not that I don't believe Boeing - it's just I guess the 779 has a more compelling business case than some members have presented on here. Either way , I love split orders so congrats to Boeing and Airbus.

User currently offlineProst From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1058 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 46855 times:

Honestly, with the capabilities that the 777-9 is professed to have, it should be similar to flying a combi aircraft was 25 years ago.

User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4399 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 46588 times:

If this means no more 748I orders than this is a black friday for aviation.

User currently offlinelhrnue From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2010, 174 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 46601 times:

Is LH already replacing the 747-8i with the 777-9X?

25 A380900 : It certainly feels that way. Now another question is the purpose of these leaks... Why do they feel the need to tell that to the press? Why not wait
26 Prost : Possibly strategic? Seeing as it was supposed to be "winner takes all" maybe this leak was released to see if either A or B can sharpen their pencils
27 FlyingGoat : Well, I'm surprised. I was expecting the 787-10 to be part of the order. I'm looking forward to seeing the 777-9X and A359 in LH colors!
28 Post contains images KarelXWB : Well, it's Friday the 13th Boeing had a few 748i campaigns running, including LH, but it seems they go for the 777 instead.
29 Post contains links SpaceshipDC10 : Not just yet. Lufthansa Considers Early 747-400 Replacement (by KarelXWB Jun 3 2013 in Civil Aviation)
30 KarelXWB : No no, certainly not. This order is for A340 replacement only. Lufthansa future long-haul fleet will consist of the following aircraft: > A330 >
31 AA777223 : An LH 777. Now Jesus can return.
32 Post contains images KarelXWB : But the saga continues: the whole world is buying 787s except LH
33 Sooner787 : As a sidenote, I wonder if the future AF1 jet will be either a B777-8 or B777-9? As much as I love the 748's, The writing's on the wall for those bird
34 PanAm1971 : Not quite yet. If we're still sitting here a year from now without any more orders for the 748i... then yes. We'll see.
35 Post contains images ZEDZAG : And EK... Hypothetically, if this order really happens, wouldnt there be too much of a gap between two planes?[Edited 2013-09-13 13:26:32]
36 Post contains links KarelXWB : Leeham has an article about this subject. http://leehamnews.wordpress.com/2013...en-or-can-777-300er-become-af-one/
37 Post contains images autothrust : They should buy in terms of passenger comfort the other way, even more the 787 is so much beatiful then the ugly 777 and would look amazing in LH col
38 airbazar : I think it is a pretty negative endorsement of the 787 program in general. LH are a very conservative airline and like things to be a certain way. To
39 KarelXWB : Well yes, of course. Lufthansa's now long-haul products (new J seats, Y+) will require more space, and the airline also wants room for growth.
40 Finn350 : I agree. LH is the largest 748 operator yet they opt for a new 777-9X fleet instead of expanding their 748 fleet. It basically means there is no busi
41 FlyingGoat : lol, indeed. However, if your previous post is correct, and this is just a A340 replacement order, than perhaps there is still an eventual chance for
42 kaitak744 : The 777-9X is about the same passenger capacity as the 747-400. I would be a significant upguage over the A340-600. In general, their fleet is going
43 rj777 : So, the 777s are for Lufthansa themselves and not Swiss?
44 LH506 : No way. I expect the order to be 30+30 779X and 20+40 359. This is to replace around 20 343, 12 747 and the first trench of the 346. Follow up order
45 jfk777 : there is an order for 6 777-300ERfor SWISS placed about 6 months ago.
46 Post contains links KarelXWB : Perhaps, but it might take a while because many of those A330s are quite new and are here to stay for 20 years. More likely Lufthansa Group will orde
47 rj777 : Actually I was referring to the just announced 779 order.
48 KarelXWB : This order is indeed not for Swiss, but for Lufthansa themselves.
49 SpaceshipDC10 : There's indeed that order for Swiss, but if I recall correctly, they are an interim measure. Since LH's order talked about in the present thread is f
50 avek00 : Don't be surprised to see the 748s gone by the early 2020s. Lufthansa almost certainly expected a better uptake of the 748 than has occurred, and now
51 seabosdca : This is a painful loss for both the 787-10 and the A350-1000, and quite unexpected. I wonder if LH has some new routes up its sleeve that would explai
52 ikramerica : It was the obvious choice to everyone except those that think all airlines value commonality over mission specific efficiency. LH needed to replace th
53 KarelXWB : Residual values should not be a problem because Lufthansa usually keeps their aircraft until they can serve as coke cans. Maintenance should also not
54 na : Indeed. I hope the A340 replacement order is for A350s and 787s only. It would be a sad day for me if LH orders the 777X.
55 KarelXWB : The A350 order is for the -900 only..
56 gigneil : There is no reason the last few planes off the line can't be stored for use as AF1 - especially if they're empty and not outfitted, which they will h
57 SEPilot : There seems to be a history of "winner take all" orders producing two winners. UA, anyone? The maintenance for the folding wingtips should be very si
58 ZEDZAG : In this arrangement there would be quite a gap between 359 and 779, if 343 seats ~217 and 346 ~305, in a new arrangement 359 would seat from 230 to 2
59 KarelXWB : Indeed. Could be, the A346s are currently being upgraded with a new cabin and some are relatively young. I hope the announcement next week will shed
60 Finn350 : Where do you get this information? According to Airbus specs, typical 3-class seating capacities are: A350-800: 270 A350-900: 314 A350-1000: 350
61 NeutronStar73 : I don't quite think so. If more orders come for the 748 (hopefully) then that "dog" still has some fight in it. HA! I think this is a fairly ridiculo
62 Post contains links KarelXWB : Lufthansa cabin products require a bit more space. Check the previous thread for the numbers: Lufthansa's Upcoming Wide-Body Order (by tortugamon Sep
63 ZEDZAG : I know, so 343 will be bled dry until it comes to replacing them, while 346 still have life in them, because the oldest isnt yet older than ten years
64 KarelXWB : Many here on a.net indeed, but analysts predicted a split order.
65 Post contains links and images columba : I am quite sad not to see the 787-10 as being part of the deal -if this indeed is the correct outcome -but this split makes perfect sense for various
66 Finn350 : OK, but if we assume that LH A359 seats 230-240 instead of 314 "standard 3-class seating" capacity, then shouldn't 777-9 seating capacity have the sa
67 Ruscoe : Well I think it is more negative for the 350-1000, since the 779 was selected over the 351 in a direct competition. If this order is confirmed, if, t
68 KarelXWB : The 779 and A351 are not direct competitors, they have a seat capacity difference of almost 60 seats.
69 SEPilot : I don't think they need have great anxiety; they are clearly different planes, as the 779 is significantly larger. I do not doubt that the A3510 will
70 KarelXWB : 25% reduction would mean around 330 seats, not 305.
71 LZ129 : Does anybody have a good guess as to when the 359s could join the fleet?
72 Post contains links Finn350 : According to this source http://www.aspireaviation.com/2013/0...eing-777x-to-spark-mini-jumbo-war/ Boeing 777-9 would seat 407, and I suppose it is a
73 Post contains links Revelation : See Usaf Looking To Replace Air Force One (by 747megatop Sep 10 2013 in Military Aviation & Space Flight) And perhaps AA's recent narrowbody orde
74 kaitak : Something from a German opera, I should thing ... the fourth part of Wagner's Ring trilogy, where Brunehilde trades her pigtails for a 777. Do you th
75 Post contains links and images KarelXWB : Yes that's a typical 3-class configuration with 60" J seats, but Lufthansa's new J seats are 78". Therefore you won't fit 407 seats in it. Airbus and
76 Post contains images ferpe : For all that thinks LH will stay with 359 and 779 only for longhaul below 380. Why would they? CX also only ordered 359 and there was kilometers writt
77 sankaps : And EK and DL (other than the order inherited from NWA). I certainly think it is a negative sign for the 787 program that the two latest orders for l
78 KarelXWB : Their last ten 748i's on order will definitively be delivered: 5 in 2014 and 5 in 2015. In fact, 1 of those 10 is already in final assembly, with a d
79 SEPilot : I never heard that it was going to be winner take all, but you may be right. I doubt that very much. Boeing would be conceding that the 748i's are wo
80 Finn350 : OK, now it makes perfect sense. It is actually almost exactly 19 % reduction in both types: A350-900: standard 3-class seating 314, reduced by 19 % t
81 KarelXWB : I have to agree with you. This order is for A340 replacement only, who knows what they might order in the future? And let's not forget the subsidiari
82 Ruscoe : I think the non 351 order is confirmation that the 351 is not sitting comfortably. LH has said (indirectly) that it has too much range for the capacit
83 ferpe : Let say you shall place an aircraft order. The deposit is 5% of the list price and gives you a production slot in a mixed 359 and 35J FAL, you have a
84 Post contains links NeutronStar73 : You kind of gave a swipe at your own argument here, especially since it is well within DL's recent history and nature to buy proven airframes. Note t
85 klkla : I don't see how this is a negative for the 787 program. Boeing is not offering the huge discounts for the 787 as they did in the beginning because th
86 Post contains images Stitch : Coming in late here, but a few notes: LH does not have options for the 747-8. Their original commitment was 20 firm orders and 20 purchase rights. It
87 Post contains images Stitch : And yet DL still holds on to those 787 orders they inherited from NW, even though they appear to have lost all the benefits of being an early custome
88 BoeingMerica : A) Probably close B) Oh she sang, it was deafening. She brought down the house with her version of Who Let the Dogs Out!?!?! C) I would be my house.
89 tortugamon : If 748s aren't selling well and presumably the resale market is poor why would you retire an aircraft early? That seems like complete ackwards logic
90 747megatop : Don't agree with that. If that was the case then they would not have waited for about 22 years to order the T7 passenger version; was it a negative e
91 SQ325 : Not if Boeing offers some kind of financial compensation, which should be cheaper than offering support for an aircraft series with less than 50 unit
92 Max Q : Ironic that LH's largest Aircraft will one day be a 777 and it looks like UA's will be the A350-1000.
93 tortugamon : If its meeting it's goals then why would Boeing compensate them? tortugamon
94 Post contains images 9V-SVC : I think you have forgotten about the A380. Charles
95 Post contains links and images ferpe : To better understand the choice by LH between the 787-10 and the A350-900 I made a real Payload-Range chart for these two types as it would have been
96 Max Q : Oops, you are right !
97 sankaps : No. Which is why I referred to the TWO latest major airlines to order long-haul aircraft. Delta clearly prefers tried and tested, and I think their d
98 SQ325 : Because it is not! Boeing compensates LH already for a number of issues, not only the trim tank. Boeing would be more than happy to stop the B748i pr
99 tortugamon : A program with nearly 1,000 orders is not worry some. 787-10 just got over 100 orders after the issues. Surely LH understands that a problem in 2013
100 PM : I know no more than anyone else here (and a good deal less than some) but it does sound like we've moved from rumours to something close to certainty
101 Stitch : If I was an LH shareholder, what would have worried me is them buying a plane that didn't work for them, regardless of which OEM it came from.[Edited
102 Ronaldo747 : I would expect LH will order 787-10 later for A330 replacement. I think they just want to wait until the 787 problems are sorted out.
103 columba : Could be I believe that LX for example will get an all Boeing widebody fleet in a few years. They are too small to have a mixed fleet and cross crew
104 spink : If they order the "regional" version it ends up at about the same range/payload of the 78J. The main range/payload limiter for the 78J is weight for
105 KarelXWB : It has only 300nm more range. I think you're looking it from the wrong side: the A351 is in the same size as today's 77W and A346 aircraft, and Lufth
106 Post contains links rotating14 : I think the 787-10 will find its way into the fleet as the A330 replacement eventually but LH CEO Frantz is unfazed by the delays and miscues. http:/
107 EDDB : The way I see it is that this order is only for 343 and 744/748 replacement. 359 order number more or less matches 343 planes in service for LH. And l
108 sankaps : Absolutely. Or buying a plane that has on-going reliability issues with something fundamental like the electric power system, which continues to crea
109 tortugamon : LH already has their 744 replacement in the a380 and 748. LH has expressly said this is to replace A340s. They don't have 40 748s ordered They don't
110 idlewildchild : I'm surprised at the size of the Boeing order. I expected this order to be about 80% airbus and 20% boeing. The politics of ordering airbus have to be
111 EDDB : Well, what CEOs say before an order and what happens afterwards... I think we all know how different that can be. Btw why should LH not use the 779 a
112 KarelXWB : This order is for A343 and A346 replacement. The 779 is scheduled to enter the market around 2020, which is the perfect moment to start retiring the
113 Stitch : And yet even it if the 787 had entered service on time and was perfectly reliable, it still would be too small (787-9) and lack sufficient range (787
114 EDDB : Don't be too surprised if this paradigm will change with the 748... Well this was only to underline that both customer AND supplier are not happy wit
115 KarelXWB : The same can be said about the A346, which is (far more) uneconomic than the current 77W. Yet LH will keep them for almost 20 years, and are even mak
116 CARST : I think if this turns out to be true, LH will still order the 787 in the future. But this could take a while, perhaps when the "second generation" is
117 Post contains links KarelXWB : The LH Group ordered 100 A320s a few months ago. http://www.airbus.com/presscentre/pr...rder-for-100-a320-family-aircraft/
118 Post contains images ferpe : Just to comment on why frames like 787-10 and 350-900 loose so much range when they get realistically loaded when fuel guzzlers like the 340-300 does
119 flyglobal : An Idea, just came to my mind: How about the LH 748is get a second life as converted Freighters? It may not be economical for others, but in the LH c
120 BlueSky1976 : If the information turns out to be true, then I am sorry Lufthansa passed on the 787-10. At the same time, I will be truly happy to see old 747s being
121 tortugamon : Here here Well said. By the time these a330s need retiring they could be ready for an A359. Hard to say without a nose cone opening it may not be abl
122 SEPilot : The nose door is seldom used in freighter operations. This is not as much a handicap as it might seem.
123 Post contains images alfa164 : ...and DL....
124 BlueSky1976 : Delta inherited its order for 787-8 from NW and kept it for delivery starting in 2020. I expect DL to operate every variant of the 787 family in due t
125 sankaps : Absolutely. I don't think anyone is saying the 787's problems were the ONLY reason they would not order 787s... but it would certainly be ONE of the
126 akelley728 : Poor residual values would be a primary reason why airlines hold onto planes longer. See Delta as the perfect example of this. Like Delta, Lufthansa
127 SEPilot : For those who think that LH's 748's are doomed to early retirement: I can see it both ways. But going by LH's history I think you are barking up the w
128 Post contains images hawkercamm : If the B779 order is true I do wonder if Boeing has taken their B748's part exchange Or, perhaps Boeing will redeliver their B748i as B748f?
129 bmacleod : Would be ironic for the launch carrier of an airliner (747-8i) would also be the launch customer for the airliner that kills off or replaces that airl
130 phxa340 : I really like how many posters are stating that the only reason LH is buying the 777-9 is because of compensation/trade for the 748i. Is it possible
131 KarelXWB : Politics are not running Lufthansa and this order proves it again. So let's get some shovels and bury this a.net myth once and for all.
132 gegarrenton : Good luck!!
133 LOWS : OS will need a replacement for the 763s and 772s before the end of the decade. The 788 and 789 will be perfect for the job.
134 spink : The other thing to keep an eye on is the 78J getting a little weight savings and a bit of a MTOW gain making it a much better airframe. The current 7
135 LH506 : As I said earlier, I think down the road LH only needs 359 as 333 and 343 replacement 779 for 744, 748 and 346 replacement 380. The only aircraft whi
136 Stitch : The 787-10 could plug that gap, as well. LH has yet to clarify what they mean by their statement that they eventually want to operate "four types" of
137 robbie86 : I would say that it will be like this A359 to replace A343 and A346 B779 to replace B744 and the A346 routes that needs more capacity. And I think the
138 SEPilot : If they follow history they will fly the 748's until they can not fly economically any more. And they will take enough of them to make a viable subfl
139 KarelXWB : The issue is that people sometimes translate "less economically" directly into "loss making".[Edited 2013-09-14 14:49:46]
140 NeutronStar73 : You aren't making any sense. First you say that DL and LH "rejecting" the aircraft is a negative endorsement on the program, but then you the above.
141 Post contains images Stitch : LH do not have options for the 747-8. They have Purchase Rights. I know it sounds like semantics, but a (Purchase) Option and a Purchase Right are di
142 spink : An option generally has a moderate deposit along with a line number slot attached to it and is generally at the fixed price (plus yearly escalation)
143 Post contains images lightsaber : Well, this is a pleasant surprise. As an aviation fan I'm happy seeing two good planes sell. Thank you. I speculate that LH wishes to use both as comb
144 tkukucka : Well Lufthansa CEO did say they won't buy 777-9x till there done with the 747-8 So totally with you on 747-8 door closing.. The order is for 343,,346
145 DocLightning : How is that "negative"? The 787 was not built exclusively for the largest airlines in the world. The 77X, larger A350 variants, and A380 were. The 78
146 trex8 : Good enough for most us mainland to Hawaii and east coast to Europe. The A35Js may be transpac and us west coast -europe.
147 Post contains links NAV20 : If I recall correctly, it was Udvar Hazy who first raised this issue? It appears, on the face of it, that Boeing (by means of design modifications al
148 justloveplanes : Terrific analysis. Clearly Boeing is aiming for the medium haul market with the 7810. How does the 789 fit in? Less payload similar range? That fits
149 Post contains images astuteman : Not to mention 90m wings on an A380X Rgds
150 Stitch : At the June 2012 Investor Forum, Airbus showed a payload-range chart for the A350-900 giving a range of 5500nm with a 53 ton payload. I have not seen
151 Speedbored : I think DocLightning and ferpe have already taken into account the 'new' spec. range figure of 7000nms. What you need to remember is that the 'headli
152 spink : The 789 has tons less structural weight and the same MTOW as the 78J(the 78J is a straight increase in seating capacity at the cost of weight for fue
153 BlueSky1976 : Well... at least now you know how it feels like to read all those "Airbus gives their planes away for free/sells them under cost" comments by usual s
154 NAV20 : Don't disagree to any extent, Speedbored. It's pretty clear that Boeing and Airbus (respectively) will be able to sell as many B787s and A350s as the
155 sankaps : No contradiction. It is a sign that some airlines at least are taking a "wait and see" approach with the 787. Which may impact new orders until the a
156 Stitch : Actually, it wasn't. DL have stated their RFP to Boeing was for the 777-300ER and 737-900ER. Now before you jump in with "see? DL doesn't trust the 7
157 waly777 : Why would they be? The time frame DL wanted made the 787 out of the question for the recent order, with LH the order was to replace A340...and the 2
158 Post contains images columba : I remember a statement a few months ago where LH stated that they are not pleased with the changes Boeing did with the 787-10. Also a few weeks ago th
159 justloveplanes : Boeing should have zero concern with DL getting 330's(!) as Airbus should have zero concern with DL not buying 350's. Note Delta is buying previous g
160 tortugamon : I am surprised to read that you think LH did not buy the 787-10 because of its range. They have stated many times that they wish more aircraft were a
161 Stitch : Well we are talking about an A340-300 replacement, which is a ULH airframe even if LH may not currently be deploying them on ULH routes. And when I s
162 KarelXWB : It should be no problem for the 787-10 to fly 6000nm without any additional cargo. You can see a drop in range from 6000 to 5000nm with 10t additiona
163 Post contains images DocLightning : If you believe those sorts of figures, then the 77L can do LHR-SYD nonstop. But that generally makes it less competitive than the A350. Remember, air
164 tortugamon : I can't find a single 14-hr route in LH's network. Even the 11+ hour routes are flown by 747s and A380s. There may be one or two new city pairs in So
165 waly777 : But with LH having 50% of its cargo flown on pax aircraft, range and cargo are directly related. I don't know the numbers but can the 787J carry as m
166 EDDB : I still have my doubts on the 779 as a 346 replacement, and that#s because I think we have to adjust your numbers concerning growth in seats available
167 columba : That is it !!
168 KarelXWB : The same could be said about the first A330s, which had 2000nm less range. Yet they sold. I believe the 787-10 will see similar improvements over its
169 waly777 : Hmm, I see this as a win win for LH with the 779 because whilst they're improving their premium product it is happening at the expense of cabin space
170 EDDB : Different story I guess... The A333 was not really optimized in the beginning since it build on the much heavier 343. Over time Airbus managed to evo
171 sweair : How about a 788 for LH, they have some smaller WB jets today that will need replacement one day. If the A358 is not the perfect A332 replacement as it
172 JerseyFlyer : from 346s Interesting - presumably to add more room for freight, which plays into the argument for buying the most freight-capable frames.
173 Stitch : LH phased out their A330-200s so they have no need for the 787-8 or A350-800. I expect OS and SN to replace their 767-300ERs and A330-200s with the A
174 jfk777 : Frankfurt to Buenos Aires is the longest flight Lufthansa has in its system.
175 finn350 : As I see it, there are different planes for different categories: General purpose: - B787-8 (242 pax) - A350-800 (270 pax) - B787-9 (280 pax) - A350-9
176 columba : The A330-200 used by LH were a short time stop gap until they got their A330-300 delivered. The A330-200s were old Sabena planes. The A340-300s and A
177 EDDB : Exactly, galley and trolley lifts gone makes space for 1 more LD3...
178 KarelXWB : I expect the A380s to be part of the firm order, but we don't know when this will be. Looking at the previous orders, the fleet renewal announcement
179 Post contains images airbazar : Yes, and most of them have been waiting for it for over 2 years, and htose who've been lucky enough to take delivery of a few have seen their investm
180 KarelXWB : Fair enough. Also poorly chosen words of me, I expect the range to increase a bit but with other improvements than the A330 had.
181 Speedbird128 : It *may* actually be... They ordered the A350, not the 787. Not ordering the A351 but taking on a A359 instead is totally different to not ordering a
182 trex8 : the lower deck toilets or galley? didn't know they had a galley below deck
183 Post contains images KarelXWB : They have: [Edited 2013-09-15 07:48:46]
184 lightsaber : Good point. But the reason I neglected folding wingtips for the A389 as that *could* create runway/taxiway issues that I haven't researched into enou
185 trex8 : But they will keep the toilets???
186 rj777 : Surprised this hasn't shown up on Boeing's website yet.
187 sunrisevalley : I think you have put your finger on the crux of the matter. The supply is finite , each manufacturer has a capability to build so many frames a year
188 columba : Why should it be ? It is not official yet.
189 Post contains links and images ferpe : In this chart I have added the 787-9. As can be seen it is in the 343, 359 range class when one realizes it takes 3.5t less payload. This is all in th
190 finn350 : Boeing cannot launch a new airframe with just 25 or so orders. Lufthansa decision (if the rumours is accurate at all) must be conditional to the 777-
191 Post contains images Stitch : Boeing did not deliver on anything they promised with the 747-8 (late, too heavy, poor engine fuel burn, missing flight system software, etc.) and ye
192 LPSHobby : are some of these A350-900 planned to go to Austrian and SN Brussels to replace their 777/767 and A330s?
193 Stitch : No, this order appears to be only for LH itself. That being said, I expect it will influence what the rest of the LH Group order when it comes time f
194 LPSHobby : is the A350-900 a good replacement for Austrian 777-200 and SN Brussels A330-300? and what could replace their A330-200 and 767-300? A350-800 or 787s?
195 Stitch : Yes. The 787-10 might also be an option for one or both. I believe they will move up to the A350-900 (or 787-10).
196 TP313 : Well, well... come back from the weekend to find out this... In a previous thread concerning this topic, I defended that: - The Boeing plane LH really
197 PanHAM : Now that there is an article in the business section of today's FAZ which confirms the pruchase of the A359 and the 779 the rumours are obviuously cor
198 Post contains images columba : I can not think of a better man to do the job. Good news glad to see more Boeings coming to LH
199 justloveplanes : I wouldn't be too sad, I could see Delta ordering a bunch of 748's at bargain basement prices. Perfect deal for a 777 and 747 operator on a really go
200 SEPilot : Boeing is not going to sell them at prices that lose money for them. And if the 779's economics are substantially better than the 748's nobody is goi
201 Speedbird128 : And probably don't want a repeat of it with the 787. Why? Who is to say that the previous 6 years of the 787 program will evaporate? Sure it could...
202 trex8 : You could have said something similar about the 747-8 program too. Its tried and proven, low risk etc etc.
203 LH506 : Agreed, but would be an additional type. Maybe 778X could do the same job, though a lot heavier.
204 sankaps : Well stated, and exactly my point as well. The 747-8 has had relatively few operational challenges. And it is on its way to delivering on its perform
205 a380787 : Would the A359 be the perfect plane for LH to consider launching FRA-SCL ? That would fill a major gap in Star's network between S.A. and Europe.
206 Post contains links oldeuropean : Seems that the decision about a new WB order will be suspended: http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/unt...ten-im-konzern-umbau-a-922504.html
207 Post contains links KarelXWB : Hmm, that sounds like speculation of the author. According to Jon, the decision will be made on Thursday. http://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/379619
208 oldeuropean : It's speculation of a guy from Lufthansa. According to the article of Der Spiegel, some at LH are pissed of Franz to leave so unexpected. This order
209 Post contains images EPA001 : I am not stunned. But slightly surprised that they have split the order where they originally wanted "winner takes all" for this upcoming order. Whic
210 Stitch : Since the next Chairman and CEO of the whole company is currently running the airline division, I have to believe he's not only been fully briefed on
211 ikramerica : But couldn't it also be that Franz wanted one type, and was pressured into two types, and that's one of the reason he's leaving, because he doesn't f
212 Stitch : The only ones who could pressure him into buying two types would be the Board of Directors and while I do not know who sit on that board, I'm confide
213 Post contains links trex8 : Per the Franz leaving LH thread it seems he may be leaving without pressure to something better at Roche where he is already on the board. Rumour: LH
214 ferpe : Franz has done a lot of impopular cleaning up at LH group, sometimes it is not bad for the person who had to do all these though things to leave after
215 Post contains images KarelXWB : So it is speculation. Let's wait until Thursday than Any idea why there are pissed? No argument there [Edited 2013-09-16 13:00:41]
216 tkukucka : It amazes me how fast you respond and how well You keep up with the industry keep up the good work!
217 PanHAM : Envy. Franz will make at least twice what he received at LH, which is the lowest paid DAX30 CEO job in Germany, at 2,1 mio € p.a. -. Franz will go
218 Post contains images propilot83 : I wish Lufthansa can fly Boeing 777's, that would be nice and really cool. Because I always wished they had Boeing 777 aircraft and 767, but because
219 Post contains links and images columba : View Large View MediumPhoto © Marc Hasenbein And in a few weeks you should be able to see the very first Lufthansa 777 although it is only a freighte
220 Post contains links anfromme : Hmm - if the salary played a role in his decision, to me it would seem like it's Franz himself that suffers from envy, not those that are now pissed
221 columba : In a German forum there is rumor which claims it will be 25 777-9X and 25 A350-900 as well as 50 options for both aircrafts so lets see.
222 KarelXWB : That makes sense, there are 24 A343 and A346 each to replace.
223 columba : Don´t know if this is true but it said that LH also has the option to change some of their order/options (??) for the A350-900 into orders for the -
224 EPA001 : In term of aircraft numbers the growth would then be 1 for each type. But the growth in the number of seats or cabin area is greater of course since
225 PanHAM : Neither do I, and I was one of the first here to mention his name. It would be a very smooth transition and Mr. Spohr has another advantage, he knows
226 Post contains links columba : Interesting statement by LH fleet planer Nico Buchholz: http://www.finanzen.net/nachricht/ak...gauftrag-am-Donnerstag-mit-2659182 LH will announce the
227 KarelXWB : Don't know, but they would not be the first one securing conversion rights to the larger type. SQ did it with their last order, and EK have them too.
228 KarelXWB : At least they don't have to make an engine choice, this should make the negotiations a bit easier.
229 tortugamon : The number of options seems like overkill. tortugamon
230 bobmuc : I think the "50 options for both aircrafts" should be more like 25 + 25 option. This would LH give enough flexibility for future expansion or additio
231 tortugamon : I can easily see that many A350s but I have trouble with that many 777x. When you say LH group, we are really only talking about LH and LX and I just
232 Stitch : As with the 747-8, perhaps they are actually be Purchase Rights as opposed to Purchase Options - less up-front costs at the expense of less delivery
233 finn350 : If there are 25 options for 777-9, they are to replace 748i's in the future.
234 tortugamon : It would certainly make more sense. Making a purchase in 2013 for a potential execution post 2031...that is very forward thinking/looking. Hopefully
235 avek00 : The forward market for the 748I is basically 0. The freighter still has sales life, but the pax version won't be getting any significant orders in th
236 seahawk : When you look at the pax capacity, do not forget that LH, will add a premium economy in the future. So they need a little more room for the same numbe
237 Someone83 : Not if they take some of the needed space from C-class....which AFAIK was/is the plan?
238 seahawk : That is the plan for the existing fleet, yet for a new purchase, it might be tempting to have the "old" number of seats again, just with the additiona
239 starbucks : Tomorrow at 0900UTC press conference in Frankfurt on fleet renewal
240 KarelXWB : That's 11pm local time.
241 Focker : AM I guess...
242 KarelXWB : Oops, AM indeed! Reuters has a new article about this order: Assuming a split for 25x A50s and 25x 779 aircraft, that would mean the 779 has a list pr
243 aviaponcho : Am i alone thinking that lha might reduce the risks of going for the not so straightforward T7 with some less risky A350-1000?
244 Stitch : Boeing just raised their list prices for 2013 again, pushing the 777-300ER to $320 million, so I think $390 might be a bit high for the 777-9 - that'
245 KarelXWB : The A350-1000 is in the same size of the A340-600 and Lufthansa is looking for something bigger, it would be odd to select the -1000 instead IMO.
246 KarelXWB : The 77W is at $320 since the beginning of August. I agree $390 million is high but it would be in line with the rumors, claiming it will come close t
247 Post contains links 747megatop : LH maybe ordering upto 34 777-Xs - http://finance.yahoo.com/news/luftha...y-order-34-revamped-214026116.html
248 KarelXWB : One important note:
249 Post contains images KarelXWB : The article also confirms that Lufthansa can finalize the order once the 777X has been launched. Let's hope they give us at least a render
250 ikramerica : But isn't this 2020 dollars? Or do they index it year over year and sell aircraft at current dollar prices?
251 tortugamon : There was speculation that the price would be close to $400 Million. It sounds high to me as well but it was mentioned. I was expecting $385. tortugam
252 billreid : Operationally extremely smart move splitting the orders. From a company perspective I would think AB is not happy and Boeing is dancing in the streets
253 ZEDZAG : You do know that all A346 are to be based at MUC while 333s and 343s will be split between FRA MUC and DUS, So in a 10 years time FRA fleet would loo
254 Post contains images KarelXWB : So far 100 sales this year with another 40 to come (BA and LH) is certainly not slow selling.
255 Post contains images scbriml : They have? You do realise they've sold over 100 so far this year with BA (18) and LH (20-30 depending who you believe) not yet added? Boeing must be
256 KarelXWB : And that's without the Dubai air show.
257 Post contains links and images rotating14 : Maybe Im missing something here but for 2013, I only see 10 conversions from UA, 5 new for Air Lease Corp, and 18 new from BA. (33) Adding LH for 20
258 Post contains links bobmuc : There will be a live feed of the press conference at 11 am local (German) time: http://www.lufthansagroup.com/de/the...en/pressekonferenz-19sept2013.h
259 Post contains links KarelXWB : Just check the Airbus order book. http://www.airbus.com/presscentre/co...ate-information/orders-deliveries/
260 Post contains links and images wilco737 : Thread will be archived as the official announcment has been made: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s (by behramjee Sep 19 2013 in Civil Aviation) w
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