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New Zealand Aviation Part 134  
User currently offlineZKOJH From China, joined Sep 2004, 1660 posts, RR: 1
Posted (10 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 16280 times:

Well 2 weeks to fill up we do love aviation in New Zealand -!

Welcome to the 134th edition of the New Zealand Aviation Threads. New Zealand part 133 can be found here

New Zealand Aviation Part 133 (by ZKOJH Aug 30 2013 in Civil Aviation)

in part 133 we discussed about;

* More route planning maybe a route to India?
* Issues for NZ 733's
* NZ's Profit
* SQ bringing the A380 to AKL?
* Airpoints
* DJ operations in New Zealand
* Jetstar to start ADL-AKL
* WAG-AKL, AKL-MRO get axed
* ZK-OXB getting the new paint work done in CHC
* Night Rider fares to CHC from November

Lets begin again and enjoy...


NZ 787-9 flying between PVG - AKL ! CAN'T WAIT!!
204 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7133 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (10 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 16312 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 202):
but that most of the money seems to be spent on a small number of Chinese retailers and tour providers and luxury duty-free goods which leave minimal profits in New Zealand.

Do you think they sleep in the streets and eat from garbage cans?

Quoting koruman (Reply 202):

Luxon told us, for the first time, that China has been bleeding red ink for Air New Zealand from the start, and that only recently has that been arrested.

Recently if you go by what Luxon said was 18 months ago. That's not to recent for me and it means you've been wrong for 18 months.

Quoting koruman (Reply 202):
Pull the other one.

There's no reason to say he's wrong either, if we keep the same percentage of Chinese tourists as we have today then 1 million is the number.

Quoting koruman (Reply 202):

But its attractions are pretty much the opposite of what most 20-something and 30-something People's Republic of China residents are interested in. A large proportion of them must be bored to death, and must tell their friends that.

So what do you think 20 & 30 something Chinese tourists are interested in? Because I agree with this description, which fit's NZ perfectly.

Quote:
Although Chinese tourists will want to see clear blue skies, breath clean fresh air, and visit beautiful sandy beaches, they will avoid any exposure to strong sunlight. Unlike European tourists, they will not want to return home with a Golden tan. In China, dark skin is associated with peasant farmers and poverty. City-folk look down on peasants and their lifestyle.

Unfortunately, our guests may not be interested in delving too deeply into Western culture. And they will not want want to spend a lot of time enjoying just a few very interesting attractions. Instead, they would prefer to sample as many local attractions that they can possibly fit into their tight schedule. This way they believe that they will be getting their money’s worth.


User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (10 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 16253 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 1):
So what do you think 20 & 30 something Chinese tourists are interested in? Because I agree with this description, which fit's NZ perfectly.

Quote:
Although Chinese tourists will want to see clear blue skies, breath clean fresh air, and visit beautiful sandy beaches, they will avoid any exposure to strong sunlight. Unlike European tourists, they will not want to return home with a Golden tan. In China, dark skin is associated with peasant farmers and poverty. City-folk look down on peasants and their lifestyle.

Unfortunately, our guests may not be interested in delving too deeply into Western culture. And they will not want want to spend a lot of time enjoying just a few very interesting attractions. Instead, they would prefer to sample as many local attractions that they can possibly fit into their tight schedule. This way they believe that they will be getting their money’s worth.

Rob, I don't want to sound condescending, but I'm not sure that you got the message that Luxon was communicating or that this quote is giving. Or whether you picked up on Xiaotung's description of Chinese friends finding NZ really boring apart from the Duty Free stores.

Luxon very clearly said that the original promotion direction taken by Air NZ in China was a failure - and that direction was "clean, green, natural, unspoiled". And people weren't interested enough for it to make money.

Luxon also said that now they have concentrated their advertising on vacuous reality tv shows for the brain dead, and that they believe that the way to get young upwardly mobile Chinese people to visit NZ is to ensure that in their glossy magazines they have seen their heroes homeymoon or holiday in NZ.

Your own quote comments upon how anything viewed as rural is equated to "peasant" or the past or failure.

Translated into western culture, Air NZ has decided that clean, green NZ doesn't cut it in China and they are instead focusing on the sort of people who follow the Kardashians or the late Jade Goody, and trying to persuade them to go where their heroes have been.

And so far, it's working, in conjunction with downgauging lots of flights from lie-flat beds and premium economy to high density economy plus a small Business recliner seat cabin.

I do apologise to anyone who feels offended by my post, and I don't in any way want to sound superior. I'm always impressed when I visit Singapore or Hong Kong, it's just not to my taste. And I'm not in any way claiming that my taste is better.

And I think that Luxon and Air NZ are being smart. Clean, green, tranquil, natural New Zealand plays well in western culture. But to many people from other cultures, that sounds like a punishment, not a holiday.

Good on Air NZ for recognising that you can't just say "we're clean and natural" and expect to appeal to every market. And the emphasis on better understanding of local markets is very appropriate.


User currently offlineZKOJH From China, joined Sep 2004, 1660 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (10 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 16226 times:

According to 'Wikipedia' (not the best for info) it says that the seating on the 787-9 will be split into 35J/30P/235Y = 300 ? didn't know that NZ had released the final seating numbers yet? so if this is true, a much better number for the 'Asia Markets'! ?


NZ 787-9 flying between PVG - AKL ! CAN'T WAIT!!
User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7133 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (10 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 16179 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 2):
Or whether you picked up on Xiaotung's description of Chinese friends finding NZ really boring apart from the Duty Free stores.

That's his Chinese friends, now Xiaotung might be a pretty popular guy but I'm sure he isn't friends with everyone, I have some Chinese co-workers who have been to NZ and they loved it, one couple have even been twice, the North Island the first time, the South Island this year.

Quoting koruman (Reply 2):
Your own quote comments upon how anything viewed as rural is equated to "peasant" or the past or failure.

Yet

Quote:
Many Chinese want to escape "the intensity of the urban population". In many cities there is a lack of personal space and the presence of smog, making a trip to New Zealand feel like an out-of-this-world experience.

Tourism New Zealand chief executive Kevin Bowler says one way to attract more Chinese tourists is to market New Zealand as an aspirational destination. This is being done at the moment by making a connection between the country and Chinese actress Yao Chen, who travelled to Queenstown in November to get married.

She married in Queenstown, hardly the big city experience you seam to think appeals to Chinese, they have plenty of there own big cities. If you carried on reading what I quoted it's getting a tan that's associated with peasants not visiting smog free rural environments.

Quote:
Chinese buyer Wu Yandong, of Beijing China Travel Service, was at Trenz 2013 in Auckland this year to identify the best of New Zealand tourism products.

Wu and buyers from other countries including India and Indonesia are the influencers in getting Asian travellers on a first visit to experience what Kiwi tour operators have to offer. He says there are more independent Chinese travellers arriving, rather than the guided group tours that were prevalent five years ago.

"From two years ago FIT (free or fully independent travellers) and some special interest started coming. They're into fishing, rafting, skiing or photograph taking," Wu says.

Ocean fishing from charter boats is another favourite, with seafood "a Chinese favourite".

The above quotes can be found here

[quote] Chinese enjoyed a range of activities including golf tours and wine tasting. But there also needs to be better infrastructure provided by New Zealand for their accommodation needs as well.

"From my perspective I'd like to see more hotels. The Chinese hotels are usually very good - four stars, five stars . . . so Chinese customers of course like those things as well," Hong says. /quote]

Completely agree here, whilst we have world class high end lodges we need a few 5 star properties in Auckland, Wellington, Bay of Islands and Queenstown.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25008 posts, RR: 85
Reply 5, posted (10 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 16122 times:
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Quoting koruman (Reply 202):
Don't get me wrong, I'm very impressed by Luxon. But there was an almost complete lack of detail or information in that speech, just a series of platitudes about engaging with your market.

I assume it was it was tailored to his audience.

Quoting koruman (Reply 202):
If Chinese leisure travel is to quadruple in the next decade, I'd be surprised to see New Zealand's share increase by more than around 50%, and certainly not 400%.

According to one tourist research agency, it will hit 46% y-o-y growth next year:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/n...ticle.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11123301

The number of Chinese tourists coming to New Zealand is forecast to surge by 46 per cent with an extra 100,000 visitors during the next year, according to a tourism research agency.

Research institute director Wolfgang Georg Arlt said the main increase in travellers came from a new generation of young, wealthy Chinese, born in the 1980s and 90s who had only ever known economic progress."


I dunno - I can't predict the future. That number seems optimistic to me, but I don't study the market and I've been wrong before.

If it is even half of that number, I hope we're ready - doubt we are.

Quoting koruman (Reply 202):
et's be totally honest here. I love going back to New Zealand. I had a lovely few days there last week, and I'm going back next Friday.

But its attractions are pretty much the opposite of what most 20-something and 30-something People's Republic of China residents are interested in. A large proportion of them must be bored to death, and must tell their friends that.

If I recall correctly, you were spectacularly underwhelmed by Phuket and yet many, many tourists go there.

I am always completely underwhelmed by Surfers Paradise - I can never find a "there" there - but many, many people can.

In the very early days of the Japanese tourist boom in Australia, there was a big market for watching the frill-necked lizard run. Doesn't cut it for me, but each to their own. I don't assume anyone else wants the things that interest me.

mariner

[Edited 2013-09-15 11:47:58]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7133 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (10 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 16099 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 5):
there was a big market for watching the frill-necked lizard run.

Which makes me think of the Agrodome in Rotorua, I took my kids there in August, it was a full house with easily half the audience being young 20-30 something Chinese couples, many with a child in tow, they appeared to enjoy it and went snap happy taking photos with the sheep and the sheep dogs.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25008 posts, RR: 85
Reply 7, posted (10 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 16039 times:
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Quoting kiwirob (Reply 6):
Which makes me think of the Agrodome in Rotorua, I took my kids there in August, it was a full house with easily half the audience being young 20-30 something Chinese couples, many with a child in tow, they appeared to enjoy it and went snap happy taking photos with the sheep and the sheep dogs.

I suppose that's partially my point. People tend to sneer at "organized entertainment for the masses" and coach parties to see the obvious sites, but if you'e on holiday with limited time, they give a chance to have different and interesting experiences. "Sheep are interesting?" I hear you cry - well, to some, they are, especially if they've never seen 'em before.

There's something else. I first arrived in NZ in 1965, and although I had lived in several countries (I was raised in the Middle East) I had never seen anywhere like NZ.

People say it was dull then - the land of the long white shroud - but it wasn't for me, I had never experienced such a casual, barefoot society and it was completely seductive - despite the six o'clock swill. My love affair with New Zealand began then, and despite all the glamorous places I have lived since, it has never ended, I kept coming back. Every time I go to more vibrant Australia I wonder if I should move back there - but NZ wins every time.

My concern is that NZ's own inferiority complex about itself ("we gotta be more "international") may be it's own undoing.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinexiaotung From New Zealand, joined Jan 2006, 824 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (10 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 16037 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 4):
That's his Chinese friends, now Xiaotung might be a pretty popular guy but I'm sure he isn't friends with everyone, I have some Chinese co-workers who have been to NZ and they loved it, one couple have even been twice, the North Island the first time, the South Island this year.

I actually used the example to say that even the ones who find New Zealand boring still spend and there is nothing wrong with that.

I think one of the selling points is actually the clean and natural environment of New Zealand given the pollution and food health issues which are becoming increasingly worrisome in China. New Zealand only needs to attract a fraction of the booming international Chinese travellers to be successful.

Given the current trend of what Chinese tourists do when they travel and their desire for luxury goods, they probably would find time spent on Galeries Lafayette the most enjoyable if they visited Paris.

So if New Zealand is not ready, they won't care and they will go somewhere else and that will be New Zealand's loss.


User currently offlineMillwallSean From Singapore, joined Apr 2008, 1240 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (10 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 15938 times:

I read an academic article that claimed that over 30% of those chinese visiting New Zealand had some family connection to the country. Uncle/Aunty living here or niece studying here (and the uncle and aunt term isnt just bloodlines in most Asian cultures )
The other part usually went on an organised tour. the organised tours arent just the ones sold in China but also those sold by Chinese agents in New Zealand. Its coach tours that cramp in as many sites as possible and plenty of shopping.

Chinese tourists are great to me, they come visit everything, spend heavily on souvenirs and dont go pissing and puking down the backstreets. Great tourists for everyone.

We must remember that the tourism we see in NZ is so controlled by horrible flightcentre that you dont get the normal kind of tourism thats mroe common in the rest of the world, ie grouptours. in Europe the kuonis, Thomas cooks etc send people all over the world on grouptours, charter holidays. If you go back 40 years they used to be loaded with excursions, these days most dont want to travel around with large groups and the destinations we choose tend to speak our languages. For the chinese the destinations doesnt speak mandarin nor have they been able to travel for a long time.
Give it another ten years and their traveltaste will have changed and be like the SIngaporean are today. (Most SIngaporeans dont go on group tours its seen as non trendy)

We must also remember, NZ is a tiny, tiny destination for the chinese. A niche offer that depends on the tour organisiers to provide publicity. Luxon is rightfully mentioning world famous in NZ - way way to much is world famous in NZ and thats dangerous.



No One Likes Us - We Dont Care.
User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7166 posts, RR: 13
Reply 10, posted (10 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 15916 times:

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 201):
Good luck with that. Canada has very big S. Asian communities (YYZ, YVR, YEG), but AC has never been able to make it work - started and abandoned several times.

Exactly. At the last year's staff meeting regarding profits, When one of the staff asked about India, on of the Exec team said something along the lines of "We might fly there one day but not in my lifetime..." I would rule india out completely except as a codeshare arrangement.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 203):

Recently if you go by what Luxon said was 18 months ago. That's not to recent for me and it means you've been wrong for 18 months.

LOL. at least.

Quoting mariner (Reply 7):
My concern is that NZ's own inferiority complex about itself ("we gotta be more "international") may be it's own undoing.

It has already proved to be it's undoing in State Affairs and making free trade agreements with larger more powerful countries. NZ gives it all away in negotiation just to get a signature on the dotted line.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25008 posts, RR: 85
Reply 11, posted (10 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 15880 times:
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I'm not advocating this - just asking a question.

Many, many years ago (many!) there was a lot of hoopla because there was service HBA-NZ (I think TAA started the ball rolling).

Then I went away to the US and didn't keep track, and somewhere along the line HBA lost NZ service.

I assume (?) the Tasmanians would be pleased, but is Hobart any kind of a market from NZ - or vice versa?

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently onlineDavidByrne From New Zealand, joined Sep 2007, 1633 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (10 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 15848 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 11):
Many, many years ago (many!) there was a lot of hoopla because there was service HBA-NZ (I think TAA started the ball rolling).

Then I went away to the US and didn't keep track, and somewhere along the line HBA lost NZ service.

I assume (?) the Tasmanians would be pleased, but is Hobart any kind of a market from NZ - or vice versa?

This was initially an interesting reflection of Australian domestic aviation political theatre of the time. Ansett had been badgering the Australian government to be allowed to undertake Transtasman flights. The government, of course, consistently declined on the basis that the international carrier was Qantas, end of story. While I don't know how CHC-HBA was settled on, it was a compromise - a route that Qantas didn't fly. However, enter TAA which was locked in the domestic "two-airline" policy with Ansett, crying foul and demanding the same rights as Ansett. The government's response (in the mid-70s if my memory is accurate) was to allow both carriers to run a weekly 727 on the route (though I think the airlines subsequently cut back to fortnightly each).

NZ was the third player on the route, starting in January 1983 - the other carriers had gone home by then. The service operated year-round weekly on a Saturday with a 737-200, though in some summers a second Sunday service was added. One summer they actually operated two flights on a Saturday - and none for the rest of the week.

I travelled that route many times between 1983 and 1986 as I had business dealings in Hobart and fancied the novelty (yes!) of crossing the Tasman in a twin-engined aircraft. I may stand corrected, but I think that this was the first and for some years the only regular flight across the Tasman in a twin. I don't know when it ceased, but I'm pretty sure it was in the current century.

As an aside, Qantas also served NZ from Hobart, albeit briefly. I flew on (I think) the second-last HBA-AKL service on a QF 762 some time in the mid-80s. By the time my next trip back to HBA came along, they had retained the "direct" flight but rerouted it via MEL. I still remember being amazed at the hoopla that QF put on to promote the flight as being the inaugural of their new "improved" services on AKL-MEL-HBA, while conveniently ignoring the fact that their original nonstop service was actually far superior. I think I've still got an "inagural flight" souvenir somewhere! But even the AKL-MEL-HBA service didn't last long, and that was the end of QF 767s to HBA as well.

[Edited 2013-09-15 18:15:04]


This is not my beautiful house . . . This is not my beautiful wife
User currently offlineZKSUJ From New Zealand, joined May 2004, 7086 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (10 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 15790 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 193):
Makes you wonder if there is a future for the A380 in NZ colours, if visitors jump to 1 million within a decade.

I've said it somewhere before that NZ could do with a small fleet of A380s. But it will be a while away if it happens. Could take over NZ1/2 and a few other routes.
I think the 77W is too small in the long term. Never made sense to me reducing the size of a plane while the aviation market is aparantly 'growing'


User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (10 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 15758 times:

Quoting ZKSUJ (Reply 13):
I've said it somewhere before that NZ could do with a small fleet of A380s. But it will be a while away if it happens. Could take over NZ1/2 and a few other routes.
I think the 77W is too small in the long term. Never made sense to me reducing the size of a plane while the aviation market is aparantly 'growing'

Who are the extra 80 passengers whom you wish to squeeze onto this aircraft, and what would be the yields at the prices you would have to charge to pack 'em in?

I would think that ultimately Chinese airlines should control around 80% of their outbound market to New Zealand. Their cost base is low and their product is below average. How can Air NZ compete for volume against that combination?

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 10):
When one of the staff asked about India, on of the Exec team said something along the lines of "We might fly there one day but not in my lifetime..." I would rule india out completely except as a codeshare arrangement.

I agree, but I have serious misgivings. A far higher proportion of Indian travellers are independent travellers compared to PR Chinese ones, and they have the huge advantage that the Indian demographic which travels overseas has 100% literacy in English.

And while Luxon is using whatever the name is for "Chinese Idol" and "Big Brother" to drum up recognition of NZ in China, he already has it in India through cricket.

I still think that the old Brisbane base was a good idea that cam before its time. I would like to see an Auckland-Brisbane-Mumbai flight and probably a Shanghai-Brisbane (or Gold Coast)-Christchurch one. Both with variations on the Seats To Suit model.


User currently offlinePA515 From New Zealand, joined Nov 2007, 868 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (10 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 15735 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 11):
Then I went away to the US and didn't keep track, and somewhere along the line HBA lost NZ service.

The last CHC-HBA-CHC 732 appears to have been Sat 25 Apr 1998 and it didn't operate 03 May 1997 to 08 Nov 1997, so peak season only before it ceased.

Quoting mariner (Reply 11):
I assume (?) the Tasmanians would be pleased, but is Hobart any kind of a market from NZ - or vice versa?

Definitely some market HBA-AKL, and a useful connection to AKL-LAX/SFO/YVR and some AKL-APW/RAR/PPT, but is it enough to fill a 320?

VA could possibly do ADL-HBA-CHC.

PA515

[Edited 2013-09-15 21:01:23]

User currently offlinePA515 From New Zealand, joined Nov 2007, 868 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (10 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 15677 times:

HIAPL 2009 Hobart Airport Master Plan
www.hobartairport.com.au/uploads/Final%20Master%20Plan%20Smaller.pdf

Air Traffic Forcasts (page vi)

Quote:
It is anticipated that international regular passenger transport flights could commence between Hobart and New Zealand and Hobart and Singapore or Kuala Lumpur by 2012

PA515

[Edited 2013-09-15 22:08:35]

User currently offlineZKSUJ From New Zealand, joined May 2004, 7086 posts, RR: 12
Reply 17, posted (10 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 15642 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 14):
Who are the extra 80 passengers whom you wish to squeeze onto this aircraft, and what would be the yields at the prices you would have to charge to pack 'em in?

Not now but in future, say 10 years down the line who knows? My post relates to down the track. Never say never, stranger things have happened is what I've learnt during my time on this planet. A380 in NZ colours later on? Who knows, it's not far fetched at all especially if things keep 'growing' the way they do as we are told they are doing


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25008 posts, RR: 85
Reply 18, posted (10 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 15626 times:
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Quoting PA515 (Reply 15):
Definitely some market HBA-AKL, and a useful connection to AKL-LAX/SFO/YVR and some AKL-APW/RAR/PPT, but is it enough to fill a 320?
Quoting PA515 (Reply 16):
Air Traffic Forcasts (page vi)

Quote:
It is anticipated that international regular passenger transport flights could commence between Hobart and New Zealand and Hobart and Singapore or Kuala Lumpur by 2012

Thanks for all that. I think they are a tad overly optimistic about SIN or KUL - and maybe about NZ - but that's not a problem for me, I'm an optimistic bloke.

I'm a great fan of less than daily service, and it's tough to think that the Hobart population of 250,000 couldn't support NZ A320 service - on a very limited frequency - especially with the connection possibilities, but since no airline agrees, it wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong.

Still, I hope the airport gets its wish and that service to NZ is a possibility. I like Tasmania - I think it gets the rough end of the pineapple quite often.

mariner

[Edited 2013-09-15 22:41:16]


aeternum nauta
User currently onlineDavidByrne From New Zealand, joined Sep 2007, 1633 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (10 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 15616 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 14):
I still think that the old Brisbane base was a good idea that cam before its time. I would like to see an Auckland-Brisbane-Mumbai flight and probably a Shanghai-Brisbane (or Gold Coast)-Christchurch one. Both with variations on the Seats To Suit model.

I agree with this - and I could even in the future see NZ flying AKL-BNE-AUH as part of a three-way VA/EY/NZ approach to serving Europe from Australasia a la QF via DXB.

India is a difficult proposition for NZ on its own metal without an Australian stop, as it would be very thin, at least in its initial phases. But a BNE hub, properly co-ordinated with a wave of flights to WLG, CHC and ZQN as well as AKL, could serve a range of Asian destinations currently not considered viable nonstop from AKL. And in partnership with VA, could provide Australian feed as well.



This is not my beautiful house . . . This is not my beautiful wife
User currently onlineDavidByrne From New Zealand, joined Sep 2007, 1633 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (10 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 15603 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 18):
I'm a great fan of less than daily service, and it's tough to think that the Hobart population of 250,000 couldn't support NZ A320 service - on a very limited frequency - especially with the connection possibilities, but since no airline agrees, it wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong.

Agree. I wonder, though, whether VA might not consider an E190 or two being based in AKL specifically to provide feed to and from NZ's North American flights with 2-3 services a week each from HBA, CBR, TSV, NTL for example, in addition to the point-to-point traffic.



This is not my beautiful house . . . This is not my beautiful wife
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25008 posts, RR: 85
Reply 21, posted (10 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 15575 times:
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Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 20):
Agree. I wonder, though, whether VA might not consider an E190 or two being based in AKL specifically to provide feed to and from NZ's North American flights with 2-3 services a week each from HBA, CBR, TSV, NTL for example, in addition to the point-to-point traffic.

Mayhap.

I have to say, though, that based on my US experience I have an eyebrow raised about the E190. It's a good ride, but the CASM/CASK is several points higher than the A320.

In a survey made by one airline (in an LCC situation) the break-even load factor on the E190 was in excess of 90% while the A320 was about 82%.

Now, oil was very high when the survey was made and all sorts of factors play into this. Virgin seems to be making the E190 work, although it got rid of the E170's, which have an even higher CASK.

The E190 seems at its best in a legacy situation of high yield connecting traffic or, on its own, thinner routes but with high yields.

I'd also be interested to know how Virgin manages with maintenance, because for JetBlue the aircraft is a hanger hog:

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...-cut-into-jetblues-profits-385172/

"Embraer maintenance costs cut into JetBlue's profits

JetBlue Airways attributes the decline in its first quarter earnings to weakened travel demand, caused by the lingering effects of Hurricane Sandy and unplanned maintenance costs on the engines of its Embraer 190 aircraft"


This has been true almost since the airline first took the E190's. As the CEO also says:

"Barger calls the accelerated maintenance "teething pains," noting that JetBlue was the launch customer of the Embraer 190.

"As a young airline there was a lot of burden on us to be the worldwide launch customer for this airframe," he says. "I would have loved to have been a follower."


mariner

[Edited 2013-09-15 23:18:25]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7133 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (10 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 15440 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 7):
People tend to sneer at "organized entertainment for the masses" and coach parties to see the obvious sites, but if you'e on holiday with limited time, they give a chance to have different and interesting experiences. "Sheep are interesting?" I hear you cry - well, to some, they are, especially if they've never seen 'em before.

People tend to forget that some people travel with there kids, when travelling with kids you do completely different things than when travelling by yourself or as a couple. Chinese kids like cudly animals, how much more cudly can you get than a couple of weeks old lamb?

Quoting mariner (Reply 7):
Every time I go to more vibrant Australia I wonder if I should move back there

I've never felt Australia was any more a vibrant a place to be, every time I went I was always pretty happy to return home, I've never had that grass is greener in Australia belief that many kiwis mistakenly believe, we never hear about the many who come home with tails between their legs, broken and battered.

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 9):
Most SIngaporeans dont go on group tours its seen as non trendy

As I quoted above this is already starting with Chinese tourists.

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 9):
way way to much is world famous in NZ and thats dangerous.

I only though L&P was world famous in NZ?


User currently offlineaerokiwi From New Zealand, joined Jul 2000, 2683 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (10 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 15339 times:

Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 12):
This was initially an interesting reflection of Australian domestic aviation political theatre of the time.

Thanks for that. I love the hilariously ridiculous machinations of politics and aviation policy. Thankfully, mostly in yesteryear.

Quoting koruman (Reply 14):
I still think that the old Brisbane base was a good idea that cam before its time.

So do I. A great spearhead into the likes of Seoul, Taipei... maybe KUL, BKK and SIN could've stayed on the cards, along with more of the Japanese cities, with a fleet of 5-6 refurb'd 767s. Bummer.

Quoting mariner (Reply 18):
I'm a great fan of less than daily service, and it's tough to think that the Hobart population of 250,000 couldn't support NZ A320 service - on a very limited frequency - especially with the connection possibilities,

Yeah that sounds reasonable. I guess it's also a matter if there are simply other markets where the current fleet can be used more profitably. But it would make NZ and AKL a pretty impressive option for transfers.


User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7166 posts, RR: 13
Reply 24, posted (10 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 15304 times:

Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 19):
India is a difficult proposition for NZ on its own metal without an Australian stop

Why fly it at all when AI already serves the market with a 787? A codeshare on AI via SYD/MEL would take care of the market just fine.


User currently onlineDavidByrne From New Zealand, joined Sep 2007, 1633 posts, RR: 2
Reply 25, posted (10 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 15390 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 21):
"Embraer maintenance costs cut into JetBlue's profits

JetBlue Airways attributes the decline in its first quarter earnings to weakened travel demand, caused by the lingering effects of Hurricane Sandy and unplanned maintenance costs on the engines of its Embraer 190 aircraft"

This has been true almost since the airline first took the E190's. As the CEO also says:

"Barger calls the accelerated maintenance "teething pains," noting that JetBlue was the launch customer of the Embraer 190.

"As a young airline there was a lot of burden on us to be the worldwide launch customer for this airframe," he says. "I would have loved to have been a follower."

Oh well, so perhaps the E190 isn't going to work. Maybe the A320 could serve secondary Australian ports at reduced frequencies, but anything less than twice weekly and there's little point even contemplating it as a feed to the North American market. CS100 in NZ colours, anyone?

Just joking.

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 23):
Quoting koruman (Reply 14):
I still think that the old Brisbane base was a good idea that cam before its time.

So do I. A great spearhead into the likes of Seoul, Taipei... maybe KUL, BKK and SIN could've stayed on the cards, along with more of the Japanese cities, with a fleet of 5-6 refurb'd 767s. Bummer.

It also occurs to me that this is by far the most likely way that WLG and CHC (and even ZQN) will ever achieve their long-sought "direct" connections to Asian ports. A properly-organised hubbing operation at BNE could feed people seamlessly from a wide range of Asian ports direct to the skifields or southern scenery, to all the business and political centres - and even (why not?) to the thermal centre.

If an Asian hub was ever contemplated, VA and NZ should focus their entire BNE Transtasman operations around feeding that hub, meaning that AKL, WLG, CHC, ZQN and DUD would all have direct and seamless connections to potentially many destinations in Asia via BNE - a hugely significant advantage to all centres in improving their accessibility for business and tourism. There's no increase in Transtasman flying required, just co-ordination of that flying around a BNE hub. Why wouldn't you?

I don't see such a hub as being in any way leaching passengers away from NZ's existing nonstop services to Asia (though conceivably some of these services could be routed through BNE), as the destinations would be new markets.

All of this has been tried before, but not in the same time and space. There has already been a BNE Asian hub, but I was always disappointed at NZ's failure to really capitalise on it. There have already been flights from BNE to more NZ cities simultaneously, back in SJ days, than I ever dreamed I would see in my lifetime, though many disappeared when NZ digested SJ. A bold strategy would be for NZ to do both again as part of a specific market positioning plan in the wider Australasian market, hand-in-hand with its Australian partner.

The exact counterpart to the BNE hub is the use of AKL as a hub by Australians heading for North America. This already operates very smoothly and is a significant contributor to the airline's coffers, by most accounts. If NZ seriously wants to be an Australasian force, it surely has to have a hub somewhere in Australia, and preferably in some kind of close arrangement with VA, not least because it owns (or soon will?) 26%.



This is not my beautiful house . . . This is not my beautiful wife
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25008 posts, RR: 85
Reply 26, posted (10 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 15273 times:
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Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 25):
Oh well, so perhaps the E190 isn't going to work. Maybe the A320 could serve secondary Australian ports at reduced frequencies, but anything less than twice weekly and there's little point even contemplating it as a feed to the North American market. CS100 in NZ colours, anyone?

Well - not necessarily. The problem with the E190, as the CEO said, is that they were the first to fly the model. They had to deal with the glitches and other airlines benefitted from this.

The early software issues that led to a grounding of several of the type were resolved by JetBlue and Embraer and were then applied to the aircraft at other airlines:

http://peanuts.aero/low_cost_airline...ent&task=view&id=2563/59&Itemid=59

"JetBlue commences rolling grounding of E190 fleet - JetBlue commenced the grounding of 25 of its E190 regional jets on 08-Mar-07, on a two-by-two basis, in order to rectify persistent software problems with the aircraft.
JetBlue and Embraer will carry out the repairs at Embraer%u2019s maintenance facility in Nashville."


It's a problem of being "first" with any model and I haven't heard of particular maintenance issues at Virgin, so maybe their aircraft have the glitches ironed out.

A lot of people were surprised (including Airbus) that JetBlue didn't go for the A319 for their smaller model, but that aircraft has - or had - problems, too. The costs are similar to the A320, so the aircraft have to be full to off-set the reduced revenue. The A319Neo has not been a big seller, but I am told that the acquisition costs of the A319 (not Neo) have dropped so dramatically that the aircraft is becoming attractive again.

I like the idea of some of the routes you suggested and I'd like to think (like HBA) they could be made to work. Maybe the C Series will prove its worth.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineKaiarahi From Canada, joined Jul 2009, 2950 posts, RR: 28
Reply 27, posted (10 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 15434 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 26):
It's a problem of being "first" with any model and I haven't heard of particular maintenance issues at Virgin, so maybe their aircraft have the glitches ironed out.

Same with AC. A software tweak was needed for cold weather starts (i.e. -20C and lower), no particular issues since.



Note à moi-même - il faut respecter les cons.
User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7166 posts, RR: 13
Reply 28, posted (10 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 15292 times:

The whole point of these alliances, commercial arrangements is so NZ doesn't have to fly everywhere to have a network. Having an agreement such as NZ/VA or NZ/CX means they have the fares and the market without the (large) cost of starting new routes. This specifically applies to a BNE hub but to other routes as well. Australia is too expensive a country to just go and set up a (duplicating) hub with a crew base, ground staff (even if it is just toll Dnata) and the additional fleet required to service it properly. The 763s would not work - at their age they require more regular maintenance. The last place you'd want to be basing them is away from AKL. I've long been a proponent of the 763 refitting, but it is not suitable as the nuts and bolts of a new hub. If NZ really wanted to, they would be starting one in the South Pacific, Asia or South America. because of the lower costs involved.

The few passengers a day that do fly to HBA go through MEL,ADL,SYD. on NZ/VA.
I think HBA is more likely than other secondary routings in Australia like CBR/DRW/ASP/MKY/ROK but still NZ will struggle justifying more than a seasonal operation to HBA. The same A320 in all likelihood can fly additional flights to the South Pacific and make more money. They certainly would not order new aircraft types solely to operate a borderline route.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25008 posts, RR: 85
Reply 29, posted (10 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 15260 times:
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Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 28):
The whole point of these alliances, commercial arrangements is so NZ doesn't have to fly everywhere to have a network.

For sure. But I guess the same could be said about MCY, which is not an arduous drive from BNE.

As I said at the start of this, I'm not advocating HBA - just intrigued as to what happened - but I do think there may be more to Australia than just the major centres.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 30, posted (10 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 15265 times:

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 28):
The whole point of these alliances, commercial arrangements is so NZ doesn't have to fly everywhere to have a network. Having an agreement such as NZ/VA or NZ/CX means they have the fares and the market without the (large) cost of starting new routes. This specifically applies to a BNE hub but to other routes as well. Australia is too expensive a country to just go and set up a (duplicating) hub with a crew base, ground staff (even if it is just toll Dnata) and the additional fleet required to service it properly.

That is true, but don't forget that Air NZ also owns nearly a third of Virgin Australia, in spite of the bogus front to make their international operations appear independently owned.

At that point, you can question just how closely integrated the two carriers can be, and whether Virgin's existing crew case (and indeed HQ) at Brisbane comes into play.

I am not trying to create Air Koruman from my own local airport, as the following destinations are not ones I intend to frequent. But consider the opportunities created by a "Hub To Asia" at Brisbane or even the Gold Coast (for reasons of inbound tourism).

You would use 788 and 789 aircraft to fly:

BNE-PVG (789)
BNE-HKT (789)
BNE-NRT (788)
BNE-BOM (789)
BNE-DPS (789)

.......but you would also coordinate schedules for flights to/from Auckland (789), Wellington (788), Christchurch (788), Rotorua (320) and Queenstown (320) with that.

It would, it's true, replace the non-stop PVG services, but fewer than 5% of passengers are business travellers anyway, and for the other 95% who are mainly inbound tourists it offers the ability to fly straight in/out of the ports they actually intend to visit in New Zealand.
BNE hub


User currently onlineDavidByrne From New Zealand, joined Sep 2007, 1633 posts, RR: 2
Reply 31, posted (10 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 15197 times:

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 28):
Having an agreement such as NZ/VA or NZ/CX means they have the fares and the market without the (large) cost of starting new routes. This specifically applies to a BNE hub but to other routes as well. Australia is too expensive a country to just go and set up a (duplicating) hub with a crew base, ground staff (even if it is just toll Dnata) and the additional fleet required to service it properly.

Agreed, but I don't think this in any way negates the idea of a BNE hub.

First, there's no reason to assume that the flights beyond BNE would be operated by NZ metal - they could easily be VA metal.

Second, there's no reason for aircraft to be actually based at BNE - a flight AKL-BNE-(say) BOM would be no different to any other one-stop flight departing AKL. It's true that NZ has eliminated one-stop flights with a very small handful of exceptions, and no doubt for good reasons. However, a successful hub drawing in Australia-bound Asian pax (vastly expanding the potential market size) as well as NZ-bound pax might well trump those other reasons. Adding an en route stop at BNE to a proposed route would increase its NZ-based passenger catchment by more than 50% - and that's just Brisbane and the Gold Coast; connections to other parts of Australia would increase the catchment vastly more than that).

Third, it's clear that NZ does have intentions to operate further into Asia, which means additional fleet in anyone's language. The only issue is whether they go out on a limb and operate risky nonstop services over vast distances on what may initially be thinnish routes, or whether they take a more conservative approach and get "fatter" prospects by adding in the potential Australian market as well. And if they take that latter course of action, then operating BNE as a hub is a no-brainer, given that WLG, CHC, ZQN and DUD already have daily services to BNE (OK, well ZQN and DUD are less than daily for most of the year, but do get right up there at their peak times).

It's clear to me that the only way that NZ can achieve significant growth is to tap into the wider Australasian market. Now it has an Australian partner, that is made immeasurably easier. Conversely, if NZ doesn't adopt an Australian hub, it is limiting itself to a very minor role in serving the fastest-growing sector of the global aviation market.



This is not my beautiful house . . . This is not my beautiful wife
User currently offlinesunrisevalley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 4867 posts, RR: 5
Reply 32, posted (10 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 15182 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 21):
It's a good ride, but the CASM/CASK is several points higher than the A320.

But the total trip costs full with 100 or 112 passengers would beat an A320 partially loaded. The LH version with 18"+ cushion and 32" pitch beats the TT version of the A320 hands down. In fact my recent FRA-TRN leg on an E195 was the best ride I have had since PE in a 744.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25008 posts, RR: 85
Reply 33, posted (10 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 15160 times:
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Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 32):
But the total trip costs full with 100 or 112 passengers would beat an A320 partially loaded.

Sure. As I said:

Quoting mariner (Reply 21):
The E190 seems at its best in a legacy situation of high yield connecting traffic or, on its own, thinner routes but with high yields.

CASM/CASK always has to be balanced against revenue - and unquestionably it is a sweet ride.

mariner

[Edited 2013-09-16 19:33:30]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7166 posts, RR: 13
Reply 34, posted (10 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 15014 times:

Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 31):
which means additional fleet in anyone's language.

growth from home base is an ENTIRELY different prospect. The expenditure involved is hugely reduced, and the risks much less. I happen to know the sum bandied around by NZ for commencing new routes., that is from the home market, so I would expect from Australia to be significantly higher. The cost outlay I would expect would offset any gains made from the route.

Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 31):
Second, there's no reason for aircraft to be actually based at BNE - a flight AKL-BNE-(say) BOM would be no different to any other one-stop flight departing AKL

It definitely would be. They base a crew in the furthest, most expensive market from home base for a reason..
1)Crew would be overnighting on flights which are currently scheduled AKL-BNE-AKL. That adds up in terms of hotels and allowances.

2) By being out of NZL they dilute the pool of staff in AKL. Thus they would need to increase pilot and cabin crew numbers. More complexity = more expense. Look at the way the North American carriers have cut hubs, crew bases etc and gained focus cities.

3) The aircraft need to be based in AKL to operate AKL-LAX/SFO/YVR/HKG in the evening. There are not sufficient orders to allow for this. NZ only made 182million, has comparatively low debt and $1b in the bank. That is a better position than having more debt to fund all this and reduced cash reserves. Not good for share prices and dividends either.

Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 31):
First, there's no reason to assume that the flights beyond BNE would be operated by NZ metal - they could easily be VA metal.

This I agree with, It should be only using VA planes if it was to happen. But I do think even with the growth from a new market it would still dilute and even cannibalize existing routes from AKL meaning that overall it could not be considered raw growth, merely diversified figures. I believe there are better alternatives to achieve the same kind of growth.
eg: extend codeshare on all CX flights ex Australia

Quoting koruman (Reply 30):
You would use 788 and 789 aircraft to fly:

We agree on the validity and benefit of having the 788 in the fleet, but I don't see Australia as sole driver to their success, merely just one aspect.


User currently offlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6406 posts, RR: 39
Reply 35, posted (10 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 14755 times:

Now the 789 has taken its first flight, I wonder how long it'll take before Boeing brings it down here for NZ to have a look at. It sure looks great, much better in proportion than the 788; but I wish it was to be delivered in teal..


It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently onlineDavidByrne From New Zealand, joined Sep 2007, 1633 posts, RR: 2
Reply 36, posted (10 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 14700 times:

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 34):
I believe there are better alternatives to achieve the same kind of growth.
eg: extend codeshare on all CX flights ex Australia

The trouble with code-sharing on an Asian carrier is that they generally only serve one destination non-stop - in this case HKG. All other destinations involve a further connection. So New Zealand originating traffic would still connect via Auckland (not seamless). It also means that there's no real penetration by NZ of the Australian onward market, except in the role of a "travel agent". But if VA were to focus its international aspirations out of (say) BNE then there is a much greater chance of a "seamless interchange" being negotiated.

My fundamental argument is that med-long term, VA will need to establish an Asian network if it is to maintain any kind of parity with QF and other competitors. Wherever VA serves Asia from, it makes sense for NZ to hub extensively with them at that/those point(s) (whether SYD, BNE or MEL) and to develop services both to Asia and across the Tasman as a joint strategy. The paint job on the metal is less significant than the principle of both VA and NZ leveraging their close structural connection to provide a truly seamless network offering in future many multiples of the city pairs currently provided by them as individual carriers.



This is not my beautiful house . . . This is not my beautiful wife
User currently onlineTheLifehouse From New Zealand, joined Feb 2012, 21 posts, RR: 0
Reply 37, posted (10 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 14704 times:

Any updates on ZK-MVD?

According to a few forum posts shes due for delivery around September-October.

It will interesting to see her in the new fern livery  


User currently offlinePA515 From New Zealand, joined Nov 2007, 868 posts, RR: 0
Reply 38, posted (10 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 14664 times:

Quoting TheLifehouse (Reply 37):
Any updates on ZK-MVD?

According to a few forum posts shes due for delivery around September-October.

At the time ZK-MVC was delivered someone said ATR production had slipped about three weeks behind schedule.

The latest planespotters update has up to c/n 1113 listed and still no ZK-MVD.

www.planespotters.net/Production_List/ATR/ATR-42/index.php?p=12

The most recent delivery was c/n 1107 VH-VPI on 14 Sep, so ZK-MVD could be late October to early November.

There's an airbus test flights thread:
http://forum.flightradar24.com/threa...r)-letters-A-z-fase-of-test/page72

PA515

[Edited 2013-09-17 16:10:01]

[Edited 2013-09-17 16:14:18]

[Edited 2013-09-17 16:15:43]

User currently offlineAndrensn From New Zealand, joined Jun 2012, 70 posts, RR: 0
Reply 39, posted (10 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 14471 times:

I just saw a NZRAF Hercules take off from Nelson.
Not a very common sight around here
Does anyone know why it was here???

Cheers Andrensn


User currently offlinexiaotung From New Zealand, joined Jan 2006, 824 posts, RR: 0
Reply 40, posted (10 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 14451 times:

Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 36):
My fundamental argument is that med-long term, VA will need to establish an Asian network if it is to maintain any kind of parity with QF and other competitors. Wherever VA serves Asia from, it makes sense for NZ to hub extensively with them at that/those point(s) (whether SYD, BNE or MEL) and to develop services both to Asia and across the Tasman as a joint strategy. The paint job on the metal is less significant than the principle of both VA and NZ leveraging their close structural connection to provide a truly seamless network offering in future many multiples of the city pairs currently provided by them as individual carriers.

With only 5 x 77W's in the long haul fleet and the majority of 330's stuck with Perth, I can't see how VA can establish an Asian hub unless they axe AUH, which I think would make enormous sense. Why should they fly to AUH when their partner EY serves Australia adequately? Perhaps HKG as a hub and a partnership with CX would make more sense given CX has maxed out their traffic rights into Australia. Sooner or later VA will need to address China and HKG may help solve that problem. At the end of the day, I can see NZ, VA, CX and CA working as two groups of airlines in the region as a very powerful force, not to mention it would be quite a way for CX to get back at QF for the Jetstar Hong Kong drama. This would leave SQ in an arkward position. Having said that, there has been rumour that CX is considering leave oneworld for Star, so they would have to face that issue anyway. Interesting time ahead.


User currently onlineDavidByrne From New Zealand, joined Sep 2007, 1633 posts, RR: 2
Reply 41, posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 14103 times:

Quoting xiaotung (Reply 40):
I can't see how VA can establish an Asian hub unless they axe AUH, which I think would make enormous sense.



Not sure why you thnk that axing AUH would make sense. Surely VA's AUH link is exactly the same strategy that QF is following with DXB, which it sees as an opportunity to easily provide multiple European links. Carriers that serve Europe from further afield in Asia offer many fewer European cities. The only other option is to consciously decide not to serve Europe at all. Or to put all its eggs in the EY basket and just be a "travel agent" on their behalf.



This is not my beautiful house . . . This is not my beautiful wife
User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7166 posts, RR: 13
Reply 42, posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 13978 times:

Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 36):
The trouble with code-sharing on an Asian carrier is that they generally only serve one destination non-stop - in this case HKG.

I think there will be a South East asian partner in the not too distant future, to match the HKG/China partner CX and our Japanese partner NH. We see VX and Delta feature more and more for US domestic oncarriage, and South America will have an agreement with someone if that starts up. It's about finding airlines which suit NZ now it seems, even though the Star Alliance is still important as well.

We could have an agreement which goes right across the alliance board if we saw a closer arrangement with DL/GA/AR/AF/KL from Skyteam for example LA,JJ/US/AA/BA from one world and the existing star alliance partners.


User currently offlinexiaotung From New Zealand, joined Jan 2006, 824 posts, RR: 0
Reply 43, posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 13946 times:

Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 41):
Not sure why you thnk that axing AUH would make sense.

Given the limited number of aircraft in the long haul fleet, I just thought they could be better utilised if deployed to North Asia where VA has no presence at all. And they can work with NZ around it.

AUH's purpose is connecting on to EY's European network. NZ has identified that the real opportunities are in Pacific Rim. Shouldn't that be the focus of VA's long haul development as well?


User currently onlineDavidByrne From New Zealand, joined Sep 2007, 1633 posts, RR: 2
Reply 44, posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 13902 times:

Quoting xiaotung (Reply 43):
Given the limited number of aircraft in the long haul fleet, I just thought they could be better utilised if deployed to North Asia where VA has no presence at all. And they can work with NZ around it.

AUH's purpose is connecting on to EY's European network. NZ has identified that the real opportunities are in Pacific Rim. Shouldn't that be the focus of VA's long haul development as well?

I guess we're looking at this quite differently. Sure, right now, VA's metal is committed in certain directions. But if a new strategic direction was implemented, anything is possible (even further fleet acquisition).

[Edited 2013-09-18 19:15:40]


This is not my beautiful house . . . This is not my beautiful wife
User currently offlineZKOJH From China, joined Sep 2004, 1660 posts, RR: 1
Reply 45, posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 13846 times:

''Air NZ Dreamliner could mean cheaper fares''

Air New Zealand could have scope to drop fares on long-haul routes to fend off competition when its fuel-efficient Boeing 787 Dreamliners come into service, an analyst says.

Boeing yesterday for the first time flew the stretched version of the 787, for which Air New Zealand is the launch customer.

The planemaker described the five-hour test flight from its Seattle base as close to flawless and the aircraft will now go through air and ground testing to gain certification.

Air New Zealand expects big commercial gains from the 787-9, the first of which it is due around the middle of next year. It will use it to replace older planes flying to Asia, Western Australia and holiday destinations in the Pacific.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/n...ticle.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11126722



NZ 787-9 flying between PVG - AKL ! CAN'T WAIT!!
User currently offlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6406 posts, RR: 39
Reply 46, posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 13808 times:

Quoting ZKOJH (Reply 45):

Cheap fares and sending them to the low yielding China/Japan market because they can't fill 777s?  

They said the A380 was going to mean cheaper fares too. NZ to Europe is still $2000.



It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently offlinemr airnz From New Zealand, joined Feb 2002, 850 posts, RR: 1
Reply 47, posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 13778 times:

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 46):
NZ to Europe is still $2000.

I consider that a bargain price!


User currently offlinezkojq From New Zealand, joined Sep 2011, 1143 posts, RR: 1
Reply 48, posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 13768 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 4):
Completely agree here, whilst we have world class high end lodges we need a few 5 star properties
in Auckland, Wellington, Bay of Islands and Queenstown.

Add the Coromandel Peninsular to that. It is unfortunately very uncommon to see asian tourists in that area. Maybe some high quality accommodation would help. And better roads.

Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 25):
CS100 in NZ colours, anyone?

Virgin Australia colours maybe? Given that they are removing the 737-700s and don't seem to have an aversion to operating plenty of subfleets, I don't see it as being outside the realms of possibility. Maybe when its time to replace those E190s, they could get a few CS100s and CS300s.

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 35):
Now the 789 has taken its first flight, I wonder how long it'll take before Boeing brings it down here for NZ to have a look at.

Function and Reliability testing, maybe? The sooner the better.

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 35):
I wish it was to be delivered in teal..

+ 1

Quoting ZKOJH (Reply 45):
''Air NZ Dreamliner could mean cheaper fares''

Airfares will be set at a level as high as the market will bear, regardless of the aircraft that flys the route. Still nothing like building a bit of hype about a new aircraft type ahead of its (eventual entry into service).

I wonder if Air New Zealand will have a special flight when the 787 finally enters service. I'd buy a seat or two.



Someone repaint ZK-PBG!
User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7166 posts, RR: 13
Reply 49, posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 13741 times:

Quoting zkojq (Reply 48):

Add the Coromandel Peninsular to that. It is unfortunately very uncommon to see asian tourists in that area. Maybe some high quality accommodation would help. And better roads.

Nah, some places have to be left for New Zealanders... Coromandel is where Northern kiwis go to relax

Though I agree there needs to be more 5 star hotels in most places, there also needs to be a higher standard of "service" across the board in NZ.. a lot of the service you receive here is not what I'd expect in a roadside diner in Cousinfuck, Arkansas let alone the civilised world, and they seemingly have no idea how to react if for example you send a dish back because it isn't good enough, or the coffee is sour. Food and drink is expensive here, so you do expect a certain standard. Casual, yet expensive service doesn't engraciate with many tourists.

Quoting ZKOJH (Reply 45):
''Air NZ Dreamliner could mean cheaper fares''

LOL...latest tui ad right there... unless they have gone 10 abreast on the 789 too.. 
Quoting NZ107 (Reply 46):
They said the A380 was going to mean cheaper fares too. NZ to Europe is still $2000.

maybe on CI via BNE-TPE-BKK but not on anyone else (outside of the current early bird sales). I looked for the end of this month a month ago, and they were asking far more than that even to fly CZ/EK. SQ was about $3200 - didn't look at NZ but would expect high 2s.

That is why I continue to create entertaining routings for myself, that only a plane spotter would be interested in.


User currently onlineDavidByrne From New Zealand, joined Sep 2007, 1633 posts, RR: 2
Reply 50, posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 13582 times:

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 46):
They said the A380 was going to mean cheaper fares too. NZ to Europe is still $2000.

Looked at in a historical context, air travel is the cheapest it has ever been, in real dollars. When I lived in London in 1983, I constantly scanned the adverts looking for cheap flights and the best I could then find was GBP703 fairly consistently (low season, of course). Just did another scan a few minutes ago to see what is currently on offer for LON-AKL return and I came up with a fare of GBP843. That represents less than 20% price inflation in fully 30 years. I'd say that's truly remarkable, given that fuel is significantly more expensive - I think I read on a thread in the last couple of days that fuel now represents 60% of the cost of a long distance flight. Whether that's strictly accurate or not, it demonstrates that non-fuel costs must have substantially reduced in real terms over the 30 year period. Don't moan about air fares, celebrate them!



This is not my beautiful house . . . This is not my beautiful wife
User currently offlinesunrisevalley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 4867 posts, RR: 5
Reply 51, posted (10 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 13507 times:

Quoting ZKOJH (Reply 45):
''Air NZ Dreamliner could mean cheaper fares''

On a per seat basis AKL-NRT; the 789 fuel cost is about $50 less than a 763 . Not a lot of wriggle room there.

Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 50):
Don't moan about air fares, celebrate them!


  


User currently offlinePA515 From New Zealand, joined Nov 2007, 868 posts, RR: 0
Reply 52, posted (10 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 13416 times:

Quoting PA515 (Reply 38):
The most recent delivery was c/n 1107 VH-VPI on 14 Sep, so ZK-MVD could be late October to early November.

ATDB (Aero Transport Data Bank) has ZK-MVD as c/n 1117.

ATR production is 80 aircraft in 2013 which is about 1.5 a week. Delivery from TLS would be about 6.5 weeks after c/n 1107, say 30th October. Plus six days TLS-HBE-AAN, AAN-AAN, AAN-NAG-PEN, PEN-KOE, KOE-BNE, BNE-CHC is Monday 04 November.

The Air NZ schedule now shows 15 ATR's from Monday 11 November.

PA515

[Edited 2013-09-19 16:27:45]

[Edited 2013-09-19 16:32:14]

User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12082 posts, RR: 18
Reply 53, posted (10 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 13324 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

As expected the New Zealand side has re-approved the NZ/VA codeshare agreement with the same conditions as the ACCC. Only change appears that NZ/VA need to submit data every 6 months

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/indu...aland-and-Virgin-alliance-extended


User currently offlinePalmyboy12 From New Zealand, joined Oct 2011, 57 posts, RR: 0
Reply 54, posted (10 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 13148 times:

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 28):
(even if it is just toll Dnata)

Apologies for not being familiar in the subtleties of the airport ground-handling industry....is Toll Dnata cheaper/inferior compared to say, Qantas Ground Services? Our are there simply no other competitors in Australia?



"You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline." Frank Zappa
User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7166 posts, RR: 13
Reply 55, posted (10 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 13121 times:

Quoting Palmyboy12 (Reply 54):
pologies for not being familiar in the subtleties of the airport ground-handling industry....is Toll Dnata cheaper/inferior compared to say, Qantas Ground Services? Our are there simply no other competitors in Australia?

tollDnata handles NZ in Australia. it used to be QF until Toll undercut them. I didn't mean quality wise, merely 3rd party ground handling


User currently offlinezkncj From New Zealand, joined Nov 2005, 491 posts, RR: 0
Reply 56, posted (10 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 12825 times:

Whats up with ZK-OJA it seems to been put on domestic runs for the past week? has it been moved to the domestic fleet?

Also noticed the other day at AKL, there was bags of new headphones waiting on the airbridges, are they trailing IFE on OJA on ZQN/DUD?


User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7166 posts, RR: 13
Reply 57, posted (10 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 12785 times:

Quoting zkncj (Reply 56):
Whats up with ZK-OJA it seems to been put on domestic runs for the past week? has it been moved to the domestic fleet?

OAB maintenance and perhaps also OXB repaint...


User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8752 posts, RR: 5
Reply 58, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 12355 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Effective 31DEC13, LAN will operate the SCL-AKL-SYD route on a daily basis.
Source: LAN.com


User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7166 posts, RR: 13
Reply 59, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 12315 times:

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 58):
Effective 31DEC13, LAN will operate the SCL-AKL-SYD route on a daily basis.
Source: LAN.com

It was only a matter of time. Seasonally this has been the case for a while. I wish them luck with keeping the schedule, I know how hard it has been to maintain operations with a reducing 343 fleet and no 789s.


User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8752 posts, RR: 5
Reply 60, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 12319 times:
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Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 59):
I wish them luck with keeping the schedule, I know how hard it has been to maintain operations with a reducing 343 fleet and no 789s.

LAN will have three A343s in the fleet until 2015. The A343s will be deployed solely on the SCL-AKL-SYD route.


User currently offlinesunrisevalley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 4867 posts, RR: 5
Reply 61, posted (10 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 12049 times:

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 60):
LAN will have three A343s in the fleet until 2015. The A343s will be deployed solely on the SCL-AKL-SYD route.

SCL767......what is the Chilean regulators rules for EDTO/ETOPS operation by Chilean carriers?


User currently offlinenirvarma From New Zealand, joined May 2005, 109 posts, RR: 0
Reply 62, posted (10 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 11916 times:

Any reason China Southern 306 and NZ87 departed for CAN and HKG this morning (rather) than last night?

Cheers
NV


User currently offlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6406 posts, RR: 39
Reply 63, posted (10 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 11905 times:

Quoting nirvarma (Reply 62):

There's a typhoon which passed over Southern China last night and all flights into/out of HKG (and I suspect CAN, MFM etc) were cancelled.



It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently offlinecchan From New Zealand, joined May 2003, 1759 posts, RR: 2
Reply 64, posted (10 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 11658 times:

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 63):
There's a typhoon which passed over Southern China last night and all flights into/out of HKG (and I suspect CAN, MFM etc) were cancelled.

Correct. NZ80 last night departed HKG early at 5:30pm ish local time instead of the usual 7:10pm to avoid the storm. HKG operations were more or less suspended after 6pm local time.

CX198 AKL-HKG and CX197 HKG-AKL were cancelled yesterday.

[Edited 2013-09-22 23:17:04]

User currently offlineNZ1 From New Zealand, joined May 2004, 2249 posts, RR: 25
Reply 65, posted (10 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 11620 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

OXB rolled out of the CHC paint hangar today in the new livery. Looks stunning. All to be revealed tomorrow.

NZ1


User currently offlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6406 posts, RR: 39
Reply 66, posted (10 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 11582 times:

Quoting NZ1 (Reply 65):

Seen pics of it in the hangar. It looks tacky to me.. I'd much rather see some colour (ie teal) instead of it being a big black and white Tourism NZ billboard which nobody will understand.



It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently offlineNZ1 From New Zealand, joined May 2004, 2249 posts, RR: 25
Reply 67, posted (10 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 11514 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 66):

I was sceptical to start with, but after seeing it in the flesh with my own eyes, my opinion has changed.

NZ1


User currently offlineaerokiwi From New Zealand, joined Jul 2000, 2683 posts, RR: 4
Reply 68, posted (10 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 11348 times:

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 66):
a big black and white Tourism NZ billboard which nobody will understand.

You mean NZ Trade and Enterprise. I mean, Immigration New Zealand. Or was it the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade?

Nothing like a government department logo confusing your actual logo, with the corporate colours of a sports team thrown in for good measure. All makes perfect sense. You know, like the current mish mash of previous safety videos on domestic flights. If you were a newbie, or just hadn't flown NZ in a while, you'd be wondering what the hell was going on there.

But no doubt someone's paid an inordinate amount to come up with this "creative" genious. Oh yes.


User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12082 posts, RR: 18
Reply 69, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 11295 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 68):

What is so wrong with having a livery that involves part of a Government logo? Sure it uses a logo that muitple departments use but the Silver Fern is 100% New Zealand and isn't Air New Zealand a New Zealand airline?

Isn't QFs tail logo similar to New Zealand's new livery? The Kangaroo is an Australian animal and Qantas is an Australian airline? Air Canada's livery is based on a Canadian leaf, Or is your issue/problem only because NZ have decided to go with a logo that is used by several Government departments?

How is NZs new livery going to make passengers wonder "what the hell was going on there"?


User currently offlinegasman From New Zealand, joined Mar 2004, 861 posts, RR: 0
Reply 70, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 11241 times:

Quoting 777ER (Reply 69):
How is NZs new livery going to make passengers wonder "what the hell was going on there"?

I think what he's getting at is the lack of a consistent product and marketing image, that serves to give the impression they are just making the whole thing up as they go along and re-inventing the wheel on a daily basis. Premium airline? Yes!! Well, sort of, maybe. But we'll have a puppet called Ricco making hilarious (hyuk!) jokes about licking the crack. And a million jokesy safety videos that are just a hoot!. Because we're catering to real Kiwis here, do you see. At least the liverly is a consistent and beautiful blue and teal. Unless it's the All Blacks. Occasionally stepping aside for some movies. And a bit of government branding never hurts.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25008 posts, RR: 85
Reply 71, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 11231 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 68):
You mean NZ Trade and Enterprise. I mean, Immigration New Zealand. Or was it the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade?

Some might argue that with majority Crown ownership that the airline is a government department. Then again, for the first fifty years of settlement, we were known as "Fernlanders."

Quoting gasman (Reply 70):
Premium airline?

I haven't thought of Air NZ as a true "premium" airline - in the Qantas sense, say - for quite some time.

Quoting gasman (Reply 70):
But we'll have a puppet called Ricco making hilarious (hyuk!) jokes about licking the crack.

I think we all agree that Rico was appalling, but that was then, this is now and no honeymoon for the new CEO?

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinezkncj From New Zealand, joined Nov 2005, 491 posts, RR: 0
Reply 72, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 11213 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 71):
I haven't thought of Air NZ as a true "premium" airline - in the Qantas sense, say - for quite some time.

I thought NZ was now a LCC? on its way to become a ULCC


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25008 posts, RR: 85
Reply 73, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 11208 times:
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Quoting zkncj (Reply 72):
I thought NZ was now a LCC? on its way to become a ULCC

Back me into a corner and I'd say LCC, but the premium cabin, lounges and long haul international, etc, play against that a bit.

I had not thought ULCC in connection with Air NZ, but I'm not entirely sure of the difference, at least on a.net.

So - I think - it's more of its own hybrid. I think complete separation - a premium arm and an LCC arm - would be difficult with such a small population base so it's a bit of a balancing act.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinemr airnz From New Zealand, joined Feb 2002, 850 posts, RR: 1
Reply 74, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 11163 times:

Quoting zkncj (Reply 72):
I thought NZ was now a LCC? on its way to become a ULCC

Air New Zealand is neither. In reality it's trying to fit its short haul operation into the 'new age airline' model. Elements of both legacy carriers and LCC.

Quoting mariner (Reply 72):
Back me into a corner and I'd say LCC, but the premium cabin, lounges and long haul international, etc, play against that a bit.

Bingo.

[Edited 2013-09-23 13:53:10]

User currently offlinegasman From New Zealand, joined Mar 2004, 861 posts, RR: 0
Reply 75, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 11143 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 71):
I think we all agree that Rico was appalling, but that was then, this is now and no honeymoon for the new CEO?

Point taken. In fact, the lack of any new major dopey-ness from NZ over the last year makes me wonder how many of the previous 5 years' worth of hare-brained ideas came directly from the CEO himself.

Quoting mr airnz (Reply 74):
Quoting mariner (Reply 72):
Back me into a corner and I'd say LCC, but the premium cabin, lounges and long haul international, etc, play against that a bit.

Bingo.

  


User currently offlineZKSUJ From New Zealand, joined May 2004, 7086 posts, RR: 12
Reply 76, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 11065 times:

Released this morning. The 763 will be doing charters to McMurdo base in Antartica transporting scientists etc etc

User currently offlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6406 posts, RR: 39
Reply 77, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 11131 times:

Quoting ZKSUJ (Reply 76):

Wouldn't I love to catch a ride on that! Imagine jumpseating that flight...



It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently onlineTheLifehouse From New Zealand, joined Feb 2012, 21 posts, RR: 0
Reply 78, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 11066 times:

Here is a photo of ZK-OXB this morning  


EDIT: Unsure if this breaks rule two or not, if so let me know and I'll post a link instead.

[Edited 2013-09-23 18:54:16]

[Edited 2013-09-23 18:54:44]

User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7166 posts, RR: 13
Reply 79, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 10964 times:

Quoting TheLifehouse (Reply 78):
Here is a photo of ZK-OXB this morning

It looks incomplete/half finished to me.


User currently offlinePA515 From New Zealand, joined Nov 2007, 868 posts, RR: 0
Reply 80, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 10958 times:

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 79):
It looks incomplete/half finished to me.

The 'Air New Zealand' has not been changed to the bold font used in the 787-9 images.

PA515


User currently offlinezkncj From New Zealand, joined Nov 2005, 491 posts, RR: 0
Reply 81, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 10865 times:

Quoting PA515 (Reply 80):

The 'Air New Zealand' has not been changed to the bold font used in the 787-9 images.

I wouldn't think they would have done a full repaint, just added the extra black on the back. OXB is only a couple of months old.


User currently offlineCHCalfonzo From New Zealand, joined Mar 2007, 182 posts, RR: 0
Reply 82, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 10770 times:

Lots of interesting changes to NZs domestic schedule this summer. Looking at the schedule for a week in March reveals the following major changes.

AKL-BHE 4x daily by Q300 only
AKL-WRE 4x daily by Q300 only
AKL-PMR, AKL-NPR, AKL-NPL and AKL-NSN see large increases in ATR flights
CHC-WLG goes back to 8x 737/A320 flights a day (currently 4x)

Also, the A320 will operate throughout the entire network for the first time, not just to AKL with flights scheduled on CHC-WLG, CHC-ZQN, WLG-DUD and WLG-ZQN routes.



Piper power!
User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12082 posts, RR: 18
Reply 83, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 10783 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting CHCalfonzo (Reply 82):
Also, the A320 will operate throughout the entire network for the first time, not just to AKL with flights scheduled on CHC-WLG, CHC-ZQN, WLG-DUD and WLG-ZQN routes.

Nice to finally see the A320 operating on all the main routes. Presume WLG-AKL and CHC-AKL will loose some A320s and gain the B733s coming off the other routes?


User currently offlinebyronicle6 From New Zealand, joined Oct 2011, 396 posts, RR: 0
Reply 84, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 10773 times:

Quoting CHCalfonzo (Reply 82):

Also noticed TRG will get an ATR every weekday on the evening AKL-TRG-AKL flight


User currently offlineaerokiwi From New Zealand, joined Jul 2000, 2683 posts, RR: 4
Reply 85, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 10602 times:

Quoting 777ER (Reply 69):
What is so wrong with having a livery that involves part of a Government logo?

Really? You have to ask this? What was the last airline you saw flying around with a government department logo? Aeroflot? At least Air Canada has a maple leaf stylised in its own right. If it has to be a fern, then fine. But make it your own, not just lifting someone elses.

Quoting 777ER (Reply 69):
Isn't QFs tail logo similar to New Zealand's new livery?

If you mean a single, distinct symbol against a single colour backdrop, then I guess it was, before this.

Quoting 777ER (Reply 69):
but the Silver Fern is 100% New Zealand

Which is weird because, ferns are pretty common around the world. And the silver fern logo itself is born of a sports team. It's just been co-opted by governments trying to create a local "symbol". And now an airline.

Quoting 777ER (Reply 69):
Or is your issue/problem only because NZ have decided to go with a logo that is used by several Government departments?

That's part of the problem, for sure. It's also incredibly poorly done - half-arsed in that slap it on, she'll be right attitude. Had they used the fern itself as the dividing line between the black and the white, it would at least then have looked more professional rather than the random placement they settled on. It's also lazy - nil creativity, adopting a government logo and the corporate colours of a goddam sports team. And it's unnecessarily confusing - they already have a single, large logo - this one even overlaps its space on the tail.

And if you think none of this matters because it's just colours and symbols, then why bother with a livery at all?

Quoting gasman (Reply 70):
I think what he's getting at is the lack of a consistent product and marketing image, that serves to give the impression they are just making the whole thing up as they go along and re-inventing the wheel on a daily basis.

Yup. How many liveries do they have now? And the domestic safety video - ugh! Richard Simmons followed by some Lord of the Rings guff (sadly lacking the classy narrator lass from that) then some naked dude covered in paint. What a mess! I guess we should be grateful that Rico doesn't pop up anymore. Well, at least so far.


User currently offlineZKSUJ From New Zealand, joined May 2004, 7086 posts, RR: 12
Reply 86, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 10551 times:

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 85):

I'm with you on this one. I'm not a fan of the new livery personally, and think consistency and an identity is key which is something you point out as well.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25008 posts, RR: 85
Reply 87, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 10549 times:
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Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 85):
And the silver fern logo itself is born of a sports team.

I like the fern leaf. I don't care if other organizations or government departments use it.

http://www.tekaraka.co.nz/Blog/issue...contents-issue-46/te-aitaka-a-tane

"The silver fern is probably the most powerful symbol we have of Kiwi nationalism. Fern leaf badges were worn by New Zealand soldiers serving in South Africa during the Boer War at the turn of the 20th Century and by Kiwi troops during the First World War.

Many army units incorporated the fern leaf into their military insignia and the symbol also appears on the New Zealand coat of arms.

Legend has it the first national rugby team to represent this country overseas wore gold fern leaf badges on a blue jersey on a tour of New South Wales in 1884; but by 1905 the national institution we now know as the All Blacks had switched to its iconic silver fern on a black jersey.

The silver fern symbol was a trademark for New Zealand business on world markets from as early as 1885."


mariner

[Edited 2013-09-24 03:48:11]


aeternum nauta
User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12082 posts, RR: 18
Reply 88, posted (10 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 10469 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 85):
Quoting 777ER (Reply 69):
What is so wrong with having a livery that involves part of a Government logo?

Really? You have to ask this? What was the last airline you saw flying around with a government department logo? Aeroflot? At least Air Canada has a maple leaf stylised in its own right. If it has to be a fern, then fine. But make it your own, not just lifting someone elses.

Yip I had to ask! Why does it matter that its also a Government logo? It doesn't matter one bit! Maybe you could then say that either the Government or the sports teams are copying the logo also as one of them would have been using it originally before the other.

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 85):
Quoting 777ER (Reply 69):
Isn't QFs tail logo similar to New Zealand's new livery?

If you mean a single, distinct symbol against a single colour backdrop, then I guess it was, before this.

No I mean using an Australian icon as an Australian airlines logo. The Silver fern is known around the world as New Zealand, just like the flying roo is known as Australian

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 85):
Quoting 777ER (Reply 69):
but the Silver Fern is 100% New Zealand

Which is weird because, ferns are pretty common around the world. And the silver fern logo itself is born of a sports team. It's just been co-opted by governments trying to create a local "symbol". And now an airline.

But the fern is known as New Zealand around the world, just like sheep is known as New Zealand around the world even when every other country has sheep also.

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 85):
Quoting 777ER (Reply 69):
Or is your issue/problem only because NZ have decided to go with a logo that is used by several Government departments?

That's part of the problem, for sure. It's also incredibly poorly done - half-arsed in that slap it on, she'll be right attitude.

But isn't that the New Zealand culture/way of doing things?

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 85):
And if you think none of this matters because it's just colours and symbols, then why bother with a livery at all?

How would you know then which aircraft belongs to which airline? The new livery will also help customers/other airline passengers to know a New Zealand aircraft is arriving

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 85):
Quoting gasman (Reply 70):
I think what he's getting at is the lack of a consistent product and marketing image, that serves to give the impression they are just making the whole thing up as they go along and re-inventing the wheel on a daily basis.

Yup. How many liveries do they have now? And the domestic safety video - ugh! Richard Simmons followed by some Lord of the Rings guff (sadly lacking the classy narrator lass from that) then some naked dude covered in paint. What a mess! I guess we should be grateful that Rico doesn't pop up anymore. Well, at least so far.

Sooo would you prefer the boring....put....you....to....sleep safety videos other airlines have instead of something which makes passengers laugh, smile AND pay attention?


User currently onlineDavidByrne From New Zealand, joined Sep 2007, 1633 posts, RR: 2
Reply 89, posted (10 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 10483 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 73):
I had not thought ULCC in connection with Air NZ, but I'm not entirely sure of the difference, at least on a.net.

So - I think - it's more of its own hybrid. I think complete separation - a premium arm and an LCC arm - would be difficult with such a small population base so it's a bit of a balancing act.

Freedom Air was the LCC arm of NZ and so "complete separation" has been tried. Commercial judgement led them to fold it all back into the current hybrid operation, bringing the rest of the narrow-body operation down to the LCC level. The hybrid is, I think, a very useful competitive advantage because NZ offers 20 (I think) Transtasman city-pairs using a single brand and its own metal (some seasonal) plus Norfolk Island services to and from SYD, BNE and AKL. No other carrier would come near that total. And eight of those city-pairs feed, or could potentially feed, North American services, again on a same-brand, own-metal basis.

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 68):
Nothing like a government department logo confusing your actual logo, with the corporate colours of a sports team thrown in for good measure.
Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 85):
And the silver fern logo itself is born of a sports team. It's just been co-opted by governments trying to create a local "symbol". And now an airline.
Quoting mariner (Reply 87):
"The silver fern is probably the most powerful symbol we have of Kiwi nationalism. Fern leaf badges were worn by New Zealand soldiers serving in South Africa during the Boer War at the turn of the 20th Century and by Kiwi troops during the First World War.

I think that the fern was adopted whenever, way back, for sports teams because it already was a symbol that NZers identified with, rather than its use by sports teams creating it as a national symbol. Many have used it since in various contexts (remember Fernleaf Butter - perhaps you can still get it some places?).

And the use of black as the national colour probably originally derived from the black singlet favoured by farmers across the nation since eons ago, though I'll accept correction on that. So the fern in black does quite resonate with something on quite a deep level for me. The specific design has also been used in a number of contexts, and I actually quite like it (though how I'll feel about it in five or ten years' time I can't predict).

All in all, I think we should give the new livery a chance before passing judgement. I'll be interested to view a sea of aircraft in the new livery (including one or two in the "negative" llivery?) during the early morning or early evening wide-body/narrow-body hubbing peaks and see how impressive (or not?) that will be.



This is not my beautiful house . . . This is not my beautiful wife
User currently offlinegasman From New Zealand, joined Mar 2004, 861 posts, RR: 0
Reply 90, posted (10 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 10427 times:

Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 89):
Sooo would you prefer the boring....put....you....to....sleep safety videos other airlines have instead of something which makes passengers laugh, smile AND pay attention?

Actually - yes.

The "nothing to hide" video I think was quite clever. But IMHO, that should've been a one-off diversion. All the others have been facile, try-hard and bordering on imbecilic. And I actually find the implication that safety information has to be this dumbed-down to make me pay attention, just slightly insulting (I would forgive anyone who accused me of being a bit "precious" on this one  )

I also think that with NZ's videos, the safety message is sometimes lost in all the "humour". It is possible to be engaging without being imbecilic. Just as it is possible to be friendly while still being professional. NZ struggle with this one too.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25008 posts, RR: 85
Reply 91, posted (10 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 10391 times:
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Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 89):
Freedom Air was the LCC arm of NZ and so "complete separation" has been tried.

While I think it is possible for a "pure LCC" arm to be successful here (except for long-haul), I would have serious doubts about the viability of a full service, "all premium" arm.

Qantas has tried that solution, separating the two, and it is the full service, premium arm - Qantas International - that fell off the financial cliff.

Somehow, Air NZ had to find a way to balance the two competing imperatives and while I really dislike the easy excuse that we have to compromise "because of the small population," that small population is the reality and sometimes we do. The trick is to make the compromise new-minted, to make a virtue of it, which I think the airline has done.

Anyone can argue that it could have been done differently, but I've ben studying the relentless rise of LCC's since I first flew Ryanair in 1992, and most of what Air NZ has done has made sense to me. Anything else is theoretical.

I've also suggested on the Australian threads (several times) that we haven't seen a genuine ULCC, Allegiant-style, Down Under yet and this article suggests the same:

http://www.smh.com.au/travel/blogs/t...d-in-australia-20130923-2u92a.html

"The US airline we need in Australia"

I believe - against quite a lot of opposition - that such an airline could be make to work in Oz but it sure wouldn't be easy, it's a population thing. I can't see how to do that here.

Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 89):
I think that the fern was adopted whenever, way back, for sports teams because it already was a symbol that NZers identified with, rather than its use by sports teams creating it as a national symbol.

  

As above, since the very earliest days of settlement we were "Fernlanders" (or even Moalanders) even before we were Maorilanders.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineZKSUJ From New Zealand, joined May 2004, 7086 posts, RR: 12
Reply 92, posted (10 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 10344 times:

Quoting gasman (Reply 90):

     
Agree with your post. For me nothing to hide and the rugby videos were great. After that it's all a bit much. Gimmicky videos like the fit to fly, rico, bear grills etc etc were just a bit much with little relevence.

The Bear Grills one for example. did not visually show that you have to inflate your life jacket once leaving the aircraft, because there is no aircraft. Many people learn visually and by things like that I think some of these videos are missing the point.

And yes, there is a line between friendly/relaxed and professional. A line not known by some who can come across as slack


User currently offlinesunrisevalley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 4867 posts, RR: 5
Reply 93, posted (10 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 10208 times:

I have real trouble with the Fern. It is grossly over proportioned in my view. Looks like a barracuda's mouth,

User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 94, posted (10 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 10169 times:

Gasman,
I suspect that you are right, and that most of the eccentricity of the last few years which antagonised customers may have come from the mind of Rob Fyfe.

From Rico to "Earn to Fly instead of Fly to Earn" there were a lot of moves which would get liked on Facebook by people who will never buy a ticket.

Luxon is incredibly lucky to have inherited a Trans-Pacific monopoly, but I hope that he doesn't fall for the "more Airpoints members than ever" nonsense and instead commissions some research into just how many HIgh Value Pax have taken away how much business, and what it would take to win them back.

My guess is that most NZ-based HVCs still use Air NZ on monopoly routes, but that there has been a significant exodus to Emirates and Qantas to Australia and Europe and to Singapore Airlines and Cathay Pacific to Asia.

And a drainage to those carriers may not show on superficial examination because the domestic and US mainland monopolies ensure that they will still achieve NZ elite status.

But how many pax who were Gold Elite delivering $50K annual revenue are now NZ Gold delivering $15K on US and domestic flights but are also EK/QF/SQ elite on another $35K of travel that is lost to NZ?

And thanks to banked Gold Elite, Luxon may not notice their loss at all.

For the record, I'm still "earned" Gold Elite. I'm not trying to create Koruman Airways.


User currently offlinegasman From New Zealand, joined Mar 2004, 861 posts, RR: 0
Reply 95, posted (10 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 9983 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 94):
Luxon is incredibly lucky to have inherited a Trans-Pacific monopoly, but I hope that he doesn't fall for the "more Airpoints members than ever" nonsense and instead commissions some research into just how many HIgh Value Pax have taken away how much business, and what it would take to win them back.

I really hope he does this too, but to do so would take a level of insight and "thinking outside the box" that we've not witnessed for a while (the word "Norris" springs to mind).

Quoting koruman (Reply 94):
My guess is that most NZ-based HVCs still use Air NZ on monopoly routes, but that there has been a significant exodus to Emirates and Qantas to Australia and Europe and to Singapore Airlines and Cathay Pacific to Asia.

I would be a piece of evidence which supports your guess (although my preference is SQ to Europe). And I partook in this exodus, I emphasise for the millionth time, not because of a myriad of interconnected market forces; but quite simply because I was pissed at NZ.

Quoting koruman (Reply 94):
And a drainage to those carriers may not show on superficial examination because the domestic and US mainland monopolies ensure that they will still achieve NZ elite status.

In my case, Gold status, without having purchased a premium ticket on NZ for nearly a year.

Quoting koruman (Reply 94):
But how many pax who were Gold Elite delivering $50K annual revenue are now NZ Gold delivering $15K on US and domestic flights but are also EK/QF/SQ elite on another $35K of travel that is lost to NZ?

Again, hit the nail on the head - I'm still gold on NZ (albeit artificially) and am Silver on EK.


User currently offlinecchan From New Zealand, joined May 2003, 1759 posts, RR: 2
Reply 96, posted (10 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 9608 times:

NZ's new livery would probably look best on an A321...but is NZ going to order them?

User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7166 posts, RR: 13
Reply 97, posted (10 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 9607 times:

Quoting cchan (Reply 96):
NZ's new livery would probably look best on an A321...but is NZ going to order them?

orders can be converted but I don't believe there are plans currently.


User currently offlinezkojq From New Zealand, joined Sep 2011, 1143 posts, RR: 1
Reply 98, posted (10 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 9151 times:

787 Simulator is being installed.
Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 49):
Nah, some places have to be left for New Zealanders... Coromandel is where Northern kiwis go to relax

Well plenty of Western European tourists visit there too. French and German accents are reasonably common at Hahei, Hot Water Beach and Cathedral Cove. As it stands though most tourists visiting the Coromandel are caravan based as opposed to tour busses.

Quoting NZ1 (Reply 67):
I was sceptical to start with, but after seeing it in the flesh with my own eyes, my opinion has changed.

Well I hope you are right, the photos i've seen so far don't make it look very nice - particularly the . I'll reserve judgement until I've seen it in the metal.

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 77):
Wouldn't I love to catch a ride on that! Imagine jumpseating that flight...

Jumpseating would be incredible. I wonder what the turn times would be like. I assume that an absenceof cargo handling equipment would mean that the hold would have to be unloaded by hand?



Someone repaint ZK-PBG!
User currently offlinecarryon From Australia, joined Aug 2012, 26 posts, RR: 0
Reply 99, posted (10 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 9030 times:

Quoting ZKSUJ (Reply 76):
Released this morning. The 763 will be doing charters to McMurdo base in Antartica transporting scientists etc etc

First route proving flight departs October 5 operating AKL - McMurdo, if it is successful there will be another two services operated during the summer season from either CHC or AKL. Gives a huge increase in operational capability over the RNZAF 757s: http://bit.ly/1beM8u9


User currently offlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6406 posts, RR: 39
Reply 100, posted (10 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 8992 times:

Quoting zkojq (Reply 98):
Jumpseating would be incredible. I wonder what the turn times would be like. I assume that an absenceof cargo handling equipment would mean that the hold would have to be unloaded by hand?

I wonder how much there would be to unload.. I'd imagine all the scientific equipment would be taken on a C17 or something; or already be there.



It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently offlinePalmyboy12 From New Zealand, joined Oct 2011, 57 posts, RR: 0
Reply 101, posted (10 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 8975 times:

Has anybody seen this concept yet? http://thedesignair.net/2013/09/20/r...r-look-at-air-new-zealands-livery/

By French designer Remy Chevarin, I personally think it's a particularly elegant redesign of the new Air New Zealand livery. The fern looks less stylized and it fits much better with the body, complementing the koru elegantly. You have to watch the video linked in the article though - the all black version is something I would give my left kidney to see in reality.



"You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline." Frank Zappa
User currently offlineZKSUJ From New Zealand, joined May 2004, 7086 posts, RR: 12
Reply 102, posted (10 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 8906 times:

Quoting Palmyboy12 (Reply 101):

I prefer it to what's being applied now. A wee bit more class


User currently onlineDavidByrne From New Zealand, joined Sep 2007, 1633 posts, RR: 2
Reply 103, posted (10 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 8829 times:

Quoting ZKSUJ (Reply 102):
I prefer it to what's being applied now. A wee bit more class

A lot more class!



This is not my beautiful house . . . This is not my beautiful wife
User currently offlineZKOJH From China, joined Sep 2004, 1660 posts, RR: 1
Reply 104, posted (10 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 8821 times:

''Air New Zealand to Add Christchurch – Paraparaumu Service from Nov 2013''

4th November will see the start of Christchurch – Paraparaumu service, offering 1 daily flight on board Dash8-300 aircraft.

NZ8484 CHC1205 – 1310PPQ DH3 6
NZ8488 CHC1300 – 1405PPQ DH3 5
NZ8488 CHC1305 – 1410PPQ DH3 7
NZ8482 CHC1430 – 1535PPQ DH3 x567

NZ8481 PPQ1030 – 1140CHC DH3 x7
NZ8483 PPQ1430 – 1535CHC DH3 7



NZ 787-9 flying between PVG - AKL ! CAN'T WAIT!!
User currently offlinenzdsgnr From New Zealand, joined Jul 2008, 260 posts, RR: 0
Reply 105, posted (10 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 8818 times:

Quoting Palmyboy12 (Reply 101):

While the design done by DesignAir is definitely more pleasing to the eye, I don't believe that NZ would've had the option of choosing it.

I have just had a re-read of the announcement http://www.theflyingsocialnetwork.com/archives/18235 and it is a partnership they have signed with Tourism NZ (hence the use of the 'government' logo some people are moaning about, which also features as a symbol for Quality Assurance or Qualmark of Tourism NZ) and the Tourism NZ fern is trademarked and it's use will be highly regulated and alterations to it's look would not be allowed.


User currently offlinesunrisevalley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 4867 posts, RR: 5
Reply 106, posted (10 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 8788 times:

Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 103):
A lot more class!

A way more class

Quoting nzdsgnr (Reply 105):
and it is a partnership they have signed with Tourism NZ (hence the use of the 'government' logo some people are moaning about, which also features as a symbol for Quality Assurance or Qualmark of Tourism NZ) and the Tourism NZ fern is trademarked and it's use will be highly regulated and alterations to it's look would not be allowed.

Perhaps this statement says an awful lot about where Tourism NZ is at right now. Crude and rather short on finess.


User currently offlineaerokiwi From New Zealand, joined Jul 2000, 2683 posts, RR: 4
Reply 107, posted (10 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 8657 times:

Quoting nzdsgnr (Reply 105):
hence the use of the 'government' logo some people are moaning about,

Oh that would be me "moaning" (note: also known as criticism).

Because it's an awkward, ungainly symbol. For government and government interests. And it's exceptionally lazy. And poorly applied. And as anyone in corporate logo design would tell you, the last thing you want to do is confuse your main logo and devalue it. the Pacific Wave almost did this for a while, but NZ reverted to the koru and kept the wave well and truly clear of the koru symbol.

The designair concept is far more effective, though I'd still adjust the fern design (more fronds) somewhat and keep it off the tail altogether. And revert to teal/blue gradient. But yes, much better.


User currently offlineZKOJH From China, joined Sep 2004, 1660 posts, RR: 1
Reply 108, posted (10 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 8590 times:

''Air NZ's stock soars on buyback extension''

Air New Zealand shares surged nearly 4 per cent yesterday as it announced it was extending its share buyback scheme for another year.

The company - which is slated to be sold down by the Government this year - announced at its annual meeting it plans to purchase up to 3 per cent or up to $45 million of its shares, whichever is the lower, over the next 12 months. Shares climbed by 5.5c to close at $1.51.

The airline started a share buy- back programme a year ago, saying then it did not believe that the share price fairly reflected the underlying value of the company's shares.


http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/n...ticle.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11131269

ROT-SYD flights get cut.

Sydney flights canned for winter

Officials remain positive despite Air New Zealand's decision to suspend flights from Rotorua to Sydney during winter months.

However, they say a new international schedule will make it easier for travellers flying to and from Sydney, and they will also lower the international departure tax.

Air New Zealand announced yesterday it would suspend flights from Rotorua to Sydney during the off-peak winter season between May and August, aiming to focus on growing passenger numbers during the peak September to April travel season

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rotorua-da...cfm?c_id=1503438&objectid=11130965



NZ 787-9 flying between PVG - AKL ! CAN'T WAIT!!
User currently offlinegasman From New Zealand, joined Mar 2004, 861 posts, RR: 0
Reply 109, posted (10 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 8549 times:

Quoting ZKSUJ (Reply 102):
I prefer it to what's being applied now

Totally. Amazing how with a few very subtle tweaks, something competent but slightly amateurish becomes artistic and striking. I particularly like the "naked" engine cowlings.

Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 103):
A wee bit more class

A lot more class!

Tsk, tsk. Your use of the word "class" just goes to demonstrate you have no understanding of what NZ stands for today. Rap yourself over the knuckles, guffaw over a Ricco video, watch "fit to fly" a dozen times then go and buy yourself an (overpriced) seat n' bag to Coolangatta.

[Edited 2013-09-27 20:25:52]

User currently offlinecchan From New Zealand, joined May 2003, 1759 posts, RR: 2
Reply 110, posted (10 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 8230 times:

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 97):
orders can be converted but I don't believe there are plans currently

Probably quite unlikely until the international A320 fleet is due for renewal.


User currently offlinezkeoj From New Zealand, joined Feb 2005, 1003 posts, RR: 6
Reply 111, posted (10 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 7998 times:

Hi Guys

I saw this Beaver in the Viaduct today. Since it has no country pre-fix in the registration, I assumed it is a NZL aircraft (ZK-AMA). However, I can't find any information for it. The only ZM-AMA I can find is the preserved Shorts Flying Boat, but nothing currently registered. Even on http://www.regosearch.com/ there no entry.

Does anybody have more info about this aircraft, i.e. full registration, c/n, etc...




Many thanks
micha


User currently offlinePA515 From New Zealand, joined Nov 2007, 868 posts, RR: 0
Reply 112, posted (10 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 7972 times:

Quoting zkeoj (Reply 111):
ZK-AMA DHC-2 Mk1 c/n 1477 HEX C820D8
Auckland Seaplanes Limited, 28 Dedwood Terrace, Saint Marys Bay, Auckland 1011

Remember seeing something on one of the New Zealand blogs recently.

PA515

[Edited 2013-09-28 19:40:29]

User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7166 posts, RR: 13
Reply 113, posted (10 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 7961 times:

At the moment NCJ looks to be the aircraft heading down to the Ice on the 5th at 0500. It will return to AKL and head to DPS. Not ideal for photos.

Quoting ZKOJH (Thread starter):
SQ bringing the A380 to AKL?

As it understand it now, No it won't be. Previous management appear to have favoured the A388 to AKL but not the current management

Quoting cchan (Reply 110):
Probably quite unlikely until the international A320 fleet is due for renewal.

I suspect so, until the NEOs inevitably arrive - there would have to be some fairly hefty 787 compo discounts for the MAX to be ordered IMO. I expect them to operate routes like AKL-PPT, AKL/CHC-PER, AKL-RAR and of course AKL-SYD/BNE/MEL in lieu of the larger jets - which will be on tighter utilisation for longhaul I think. And yes, I do predict that business class may reappear A321 services (but not A320 services)..


User currently offlinezkeoj From New Zealand, joined Feb 2005, 1003 posts, RR: 6
Reply 114, posted (10 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 7875 times:

Quoting PA515 (Reply 112):
ZK-AMA DHC-2 Mk1 c/n 1477 HEX C820D8
Auckland Seaplanes Limited, 28 Dedwood Terrace, Saint Marys Bay, Auckland 1011

wow - thanks heaps for teh superfast response! Strange that it doesn't come up on any of the rego websites... Now I have it though  

Cheers
micha


User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7133 posts, RR: 3
Reply 115, posted (10 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 7645 times:

Quoting 777ER (Reply 69):

Isn't QFs tail logo similar to New Zealand's new livery? The Kangaroo is an Australian animal and Qantas is an Australian airline? Air Canada's livery is based on a Canadian leaf,

NZ now have two logos on their planes, the Koru and the Emirates Team NZ/Govt Tourism Trade and Industry Silver Fern, Qantas and Air Canada only have a single logo the Roo and the Leaf.


User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7133 posts, RR: 3
Reply 116, posted (10 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 7640 times:

Quoting ZKSUJ (Reply 102):
I prefer it to what's being applied now. A wee bit more class

Sure is.

http://thedesignair.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/screen-shot-2013-09-20-at-16-18-30.png?w=710&h=214

[Edited 2013-09-29 06:17:46]

User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25008 posts, RR: 85
Reply 117, posted (10 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 7360 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Interesting snippet from te AGM:

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/busine...ew-zealand-looks-for-new-alliances

"Air New Zealand looks for new alliances

Air New Zealand is on the lookout for new alliances, because the partnerships will be a key driver of growth in the next five years.

The company has even recently created a special team charged solely with investigating and creating these new partnerships.

Mr Luxon was not prepared to say which airlines Air New Zealand is holding discussions with, but said the company had on-going conversations with airlines all around the Pacific rim."


Hawaiian? LAN? Take your pick of any Pacific Rim airlines , I suppose, but I assume this is in addition to any Star Alliance carriers?

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7166 posts, RR: 13
Reply 118, posted (10 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 7185 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 117):
Hawaiian? LAN? Take your pick of any Pacific Rim airlines , I suppose, but I assume this is in addition to any Star Alliance carriers?

If we are looking at the next destinations in terms of growth for the next 3 years, I think it is likely they will all have a new partner. know the destinations, and you can work out the potential partners...  I don't feel that the new partners will be on existing routes. The only exception I can see is that I predict an arrangement with AI SYD-DEL. It offers good connections ex SYD off NZ101 even NZ103 and a codeshare is far more likely for India than our own metal.

Air Niugini might be an interesting partner too, if they are going to commence POM-AKL.


User currently offlineZK-NBT From New Zealand, joined Oct 2000, 5297 posts, RR: 11
Reply 119, posted (10 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 7080 times:

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 118):

Air Niugini might be an interesting partner too, if they are going to commence POM-AKL.

Interesting yes, likely? Either way hopefully they will start POM-AKL.

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 118):
and you can work out the potential partners...  I don't feel that the new partners will be on existing routes.

You are a tease as usual, lol. South America then. AV or even LAN? With NZ to fly it.

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 113):
in lieu of the larger jets - which will be on tighter utilisation for longhaul I think.

What do you mean here? More day time long haul flying? Aircraft arrive from LAX/SFO/YVR 0500/0600 going to Asia 1000/1100 return from Asia 1100/1200 then out to LAX/SFO/YVR 1900/2000. Throw in South America there to similar with the US flights. Less time or aircraft for short haul.


User currently offlinebyronicle6 From New Zealand, joined Oct 2011, 396 posts, RR: 0
Reply 120, posted (10 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 7076 times:

I think a South East Asian partner is needed. I was reading an article just yesterday that Indonesian travel to NZ was up by about 50% and Malaysian up around 30%, so my guess would be SQ or maybe GA. North Asia is already seems well covered with CX, NH etc. In saying that though, if NZ decides to start ICN then KE could be a possibility.

With new aircraft arriving in 9? months, any idea when we can expect announcements for new routes?


User currently offlineZK-NBT From New Zealand, joined Oct 2000, 5297 posts, RR: 11
Reply 121, posted (10 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 7039 times:

Quoting byronicle6 (Reply 120):
In saying that though, if NZ decides to start ICN then KE could be a possibility.

How about the current codeshare with OZ via SYD? NZ and KE had some code share on the AKL-NAN/BNE/GMP route back in the 1990s.

Quoting byronicle6 (Reply 120):
I was reading an article just yesterday that Indonesian travel to NZ was up by about 50% and Malaysian up around 30%

Both probably since NZ restarted seasonal DPS and also Malaysians because of D7s foray to CHC, though MH seem to be doing ok to AKL these days?


User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7166 posts, RR: 13
Reply 122, posted (10 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 6915 times:

Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 119):
What do you mean here? More day time long haul flying? Aircraft arrive from LAX/SFO/YVR 0500/0600 going to Asia 1000/1100 return from Asia 1100/1200 then out to LAX/SFO/YVR 1900/2000. Throw in South America there to similar with the US flights. Less time or aircraft for short haul.

Currently aircraft sit for 8-12h+ in HKG/LAX/SFO/YVR/PVG and AKL That is not good utilisation especially if you are adding routings. Compared to a carrier like KL which actively tires to avoid any groundtime over about 3h.. The more diverse the routings, the more likely NZ will have to juggle aircraft more to fit slots. and there is fast coming a point in time when AKL can sustain no more widebodies in AKL on layovers all day. I was really justifying the A321NEO role in the NZ fleet, the fewer widebodies shorthaul - the better for longhaul growth and shorthaul frequency.

Quoting byronicle6 (Reply 120):
With new aircraft arriving in 9? months, any idea when we can expect announcements for new routes?

I would expect it to roll out at the same time of annoucing 787 routings/dates officially once delivery is firmed up. Publicity will be at an alltime high then.


User currently offlinesunrisevalley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 4867 posts, RR: 5
Reply 123, posted (10 months 2 days ago) and read 6905 times:

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 122):
Currently aircraft sit for 8-12h+ in HKG/LAX/SFO/YVR/PVG and AKL

I note that fleet utilization for the 77W as at June 30th was 15-hr. day and for the 77E 13.36-hr. day. These seem a little lower than a few years earlier. I rather thought that the 744's used to be in the 16-17-hr range.


User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12082 posts, RR: 18
Reply 124, posted (10 months 2 days ago) and read 6895 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 115):

Unless you expect NZ to re-paint all its aircraft overnight world wide then yes obviously NZ is going to have two different liveries, but if you also count the several black tail ATRs and A320Ds then NZ technically has 3 different liveries! That isn't the point though! The point is, QF and AC use a livery that is very Australian/Canadian and the Silver Fern (even if its a Government logo) is very New Zealand. Obviously NZ have chosen this new livery so there is no point in moaning about it now.

Quoting mariner (Reply 117):
Air New Zealand looks for new alliances

I'm really hoping these new alliances also allow for status earning because what is the point in having these alliances if you don't allow your airpoints members to earn? Just look at some of the current alliances NZ have. TN, FJ, VS etc all allow airpoints earning but no status earning, yet CX alliance allows both between AKL-HKG. Allowing them to earn both will ensure they remain loyal to you!

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 118):
Air Niugini might be an interesting partner too, if they are going to commence POM-AKL.

I've heard in several areas that this new service will be via NAN on B737s

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 113):
A321 services (but not A320 services)..

Is NZ getting A321's to enable wide-bodied aircraft to be removed from Tasman services?


User currently offlinexiaotung From New Zealand, joined Jan 2006, 824 posts, RR: 0
Reply 125, posted (10 months 2 days ago) and read 6891 times:

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 118):
The only exception I can see is that I predict an arrangement with AI SYD-DEL. It offers good connections ex SYD off NZ101 even NZ103 and a codeshare is far more likely for India than our own metal.
http://www.smh.com.au/business/jet-i...ian-route-buzz-20130929-2umgk.html

This article in the Sydney Morning Herald yesterday seems to suggest that Jet Airways are looking at flying to Australia in spite of the recent AI entry. Whatever will happen to AI in Star Alliance, NZ seems to prefer Jet as the Indian partner.


User currently offlinenascarnut From New Zealand, joined Oct 2008, 276 posts, RR: 2
Reply 126, posted (10 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 6838 times:

Today, Oct 1st signifies final EK 777 service into AKL. Tomorrow AKL becomes the second city in the EK network that will have 3 A380's om the ground at the same time.
The AIAL have completed Gate 10 for A380 use and EK have already used it for their flights.
Who will be next for the A380 into AKL, SQ, CZ or QF (SYD-AKL-DFW)??


User currently offlinenirvarma From New Zealand, joined May 2005, 109 posts, RR: 0
Reply 127, posted (10 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 6703 times:

I see ZK-OKB left AKL this morning as NZ6019 for SIN? Is this a special charter or something else?

Cheers
NV


User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7166 posts, RR: 13
Reply 128, posted (10 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 6645 times:

Quoting nirvarma (Reply 127):
I see ZK-OKB left AKL this morning as NZ6019 for SIN? Is this a special charter or something else?

Yes a charter. The first of a few coming up. mix of 744/772s

Quoting nascarnut (Reply 126):
Who will be next for the A380 into AKL, SQ, CZ or QF (SYD-AKL-DFW)??

I think SQ will not be upgrading any more.


User currently offlineaerokiwi From New Zealand, joined Jul 2000, 2683 posts, RR: 4
Reply 129, posted (10 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 6584 times:

Quoting 777ER (Reply 124):
Obviously NZ have chosen this new livery so there is no point in moaning about it now.

So why discuss any decision ever made? And calling it "moaning" doesn't make it so. I vote for "throbbing" as a fair compromise.

Quoting 777ER (Reply 124):
Unless you expect NZ to re-paint all its aircraft overnight world wide then yes obviously NZ is going to have two different liveries, but if you also count the several black tail ATRs and A320Ds then NZ technically has 3 different liveries!

Three, roughly speaking - the variations across them are fairly large though.

There is (excluding whatever Hobbit thing is floating around):

Teal tale, no wave (320s, 737s, 747s, 77Ws)
Teal tale, with wave (767s, 77Es, 737s? A72s, D83s, B1900s)
Black rugby, little koru, black engines (320s)
Black rugby, big koru, grey engines (77W)
Black rugby, big koru, black engines (A72, B1900s)
Black tale, white fuselage (A320s)
Black tale, Government-fern motif (A320s)

Bit of a mess. Like the safety video. So much for image.


User currently offlinezkncj From New Zealand, joined Nov 2005, 491 posts, RR: 0
Reply 130, posted (10 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 6493 times:

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 129):
Teal tale, no wave (320s, 737s, 747s, 77Ws)
Teal tale, with wave (767s, 77Es, 737s? A72s, D83s, B1900s)
Black rugby, little koru, black engines (320s)
Black rugby, big koru, grey engines (77W)
Black rugby, big koru, black engines (A72, B1900s)
Black tale, white fuselage (A320s)
Black tale, Government-fern motif (A320s)

Add to that a Blue tail stand koru with ex SJ faded sun 733


User currently offlinezkojq From New Zealand, joined Sep 2011, 1143 posts, RR: 1
Reply 131, posted (10 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 6399 times:

Quoting nascarnut (Reply 126):
Today, Oct 1st signifies final EK 777 service into AKL.

A6-ECQ operated the final service.

Quoting nascarnut (Reply 126):
AKL becomes the second city in the EK network that will have 3 A380's om the ground at the same time.

Which is the first? Or is it their home @ DXB?

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 100):
I wonder how much there would be to unload.. I'd imagine all the scientific equipment would be taken on a C17 or something; or already be there.

True. Hope someone gets a good photo of it there.



Someone repaint ZK-PBG!
User currently offlinetimb777 From New Zealand, joined Dec 2009, 201 posts, RR: 0
Reply 132, posted (10 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6300 times:

Quoting 777ER (Reply 124):
Is NZ getting A321's to enable wide-bodied aircraft to be removed from Tasman services?
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I'm not sure what this would 'free them up' to do? My understanding has always been that they operate the Tasman flights simply because they would otherwise be sitting on the ground in AKL costing NZ money, and if they were to depart back to USA at 10/11am, they would be arriving LAX/SFO at a terrible time of the night in addition to missing UA/VX connection banks. Similar problems exist with Asia due to time zones, apart from perhaps Japan- which is a flat market at the moment. So surely buying a321's and parking 777's in AKL for the day would actually be more capital intensive than simply flying the big birds?

Quoting xiaotung (Reply 125):
This article in the Sydney Morning Herald yesterday seems to suggest that Jet Airways are looking at flying to Australia in spite of the recent AI entry. Whatever will happen to AI in Star Alliance, NZ seems to prefer Jet as the Indian partner.

Doesn't surprise me at all as Jet Airways has an existing code share relationship with QF on the SYD-HKG-DEL & SIN-DEL routes which could be expanded to provide domestic QF feed, arguably making the flight more feasible than AI's business case...


User currently offlinezkncj From New Zealand, joined Nov 2005, 491 posts, RR: 0
Reply 133, posted (10 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6277 times:

Quoting 777ER (Reply 124):
Is NZ getting A321's to enable wide-bodied aircraft to be removed from Tasman services?

Why on earth would they take the widebody of the Tasman/Pacific Islands? as mentioned above that they would other wise be sitting on the ground all day. Also they often go out of AKL 100% on Tasman/Pacific flights, recent AKL-SYD flights that ive been on have been packed.


User currently offlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6406 posts, RR: 39
Reply 134, posted (10 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 6187 times:

Quoting zkncj (Reply 130):
Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 129):
Teal tale, no wave (320s, 737s, 747s, 77Ws)
Teal tale, with wave (767s, 77Es, 737s? A72s, D83s, B1900s)
Black rugby, little koru, black engines (320s)
Black rugby, big koru, grey engines (77W)
Black rugby, big koru, black engines (A72, B1900s)
Black tale, white fuselage (A320s)
Black tale, Government-fern motif (A320s)

Add to that a Blue tail stand koru with ex SJ faded sun 733

And to add to that, the Star Alliance liveried A320..

Quoting zkojq (Reply 131):
A6-ECQ operated the final service.

Sure did.. And spotting at AKL just got a little more boring! Bring on the CZ 787 at the end of the month. Farewell to the EK 77W, served AKL for the last 8 years!

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2880/10034611035_c949a90464_b.jpg
Emirates Boeing 777-300ER by ANZ787900, on Flickr



It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently offlineZKSUJ From New Zealand, joined May 2004, 7086 posts, RR: 12
Reply 135, posted (10 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 6127 times:

Notice how both A380s today had to wait on the taxiway for a gate. You'd think they'd put the SQ77W and a 738 somewhere else and not clog up the A380 gates

User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7133 posts, RR: 3
Reply 136, posted (10 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 6083 times:

Quoting 777ER (Reply 124):
Unless you expect NZ to re-paint all its aircraft overnight world wide then yes obviously NZ is going to have two different liveries, but if you also count the several black tail ATRs and A320Ds then NZ technically has 3 different liveries! That isn't the point though! The point is, QF and AC use a livery that is very Australian/Canadian and the Silver Fern (even if its a Government logo) is very New Zealand. Obviously NZ have chosen this new livery so there is no point in moaning about it now.

You missed my point completely, the new NZ livery now has two logos on it, the Emirates Team NZ Silver Fern thingo and the Koru, it's a mess, qantas and Canadian Airlines only have a single logo each, the roo and the leaf, nice and simple, our new one looks messy, especially the Emirates Team NZ silver fern, it's very outdated and looks like something a kindergarden kid could have popped out in a few minutes.

The Koru was and is a very NZ centric symbol, it didn't need the silver fern.


User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7166 posts, RR: 13
Reply 137, posted (10 months 1 day ago) and read 6050 times:

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 134):
Bring on the CZ 787 at the end of the month

That will be boring real quick.It's an even smaller fleet than the 332s

Quoting zkncj (Reply 133):
recent AKL-SYD flights that ive been on have been packed.

A mix of School holidays, special fares to fill surplus seats, aircraft upgauges due broken A320/763s and LA not operating to SYD twice a week. I'm not saying stop widebodies completely when demand requires it but I do not believe that the 77W fleet for example should waste cycles on shorthaul just to fill in time and take valuable crew out of the pool. They have two additional ones due soon, I'd order an additional 1 aircraft so that all NZ flights to LAX/SFO/YVR/LHR/HKG can be operated with 77Ws - This opens the 772/789 fleet up for growth.

NZ4 1330 (Allows for domestic transfers and NZ700/NZ176 mostly)
NZ6 1600 (Allows for SYD/MEL/BNE/NAN/NOU etc)
NZ2 2300 (any remaining connections like IUE/ADL/CNS)
NZ8 1915 (still connects with everyone)
NZ87 2359 (same)
NZ84 2230 (still connects with most places in Canada and USA as well as LHR/MUC)

Then I would have 77W turnarounds in AKL that looked similar to this

NZ3/1700 NZ8/1915
NZ5/1830 NZ2/2300
NZ1/0615 NZ4/1330
NZ7/0415 NZ84/2230
NZ80/1100 NZ6/1600
NZ83/430 NZ87/2359

As you can see there are 2 extras utilised for LAX-LHR and LAX flights NZ3/5 turned around and sent home for further use. This allows for 2 flights a day to be operated shorthaul 1 for 13H total sector time and one of 15h total sector time allowing for sufficient turnaround in AKL that qualifies them for use to SYD/BNE/MEL/NAN even PER (just) as and when required. And Yes I see no reason why 3 LAX bound 77Ws should not be fillable especially when it is possible to manipulate connecting and joining passengers onto specific flights.


User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7166 posts, RR: 13
Reply 138, posted (10 months 1 day ago) and read 6042 times:

Quoting ZKSUJ (Reply 135):
Notice how both A380s today had to wait on the taxiway for a gate. You'd think they'd put the SQ77W and a 738 somewhere else and not clog up the A380 gates

SQ had a minor technical issue which delayed it by an hour which was just enough to cross with the arrival of the second A380, EK406 was going to be a bus operation as a result then SQ pushed back and it was alble to use the gate at the last minute. Just because EK have 3x A380s a day doesn't mean that they get priority on gate allocation over other airlines. They chose to operate them here and are subject to the same rules we all adhere to. Both were earlier than their allocated time

Tomorrow EK435 will be on 15 and will get a spray on taxiway L and whichever the earlier one of EK413/406 tomorrow will arrive on G10. They trialled an EK 388 on G10 last week. Still looks funny to see.


User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12082 posts, RR: 18
Reply 139, posted (10 months 23 hours ago) and read 6009 times:
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Quoting timb777 (Reply 132):
Quoting 777ER (Reply 124):Is NZ getting A321's to enable wide-bodied aircraft to be removed from Tasman services?
I'm not sure what this would 'free them up' to do? My understanding has always been that they operate the Tasman flights simply because they would otherwise be sitting on the ground in AKL costing NZ money

Well Aerorobnz was talking about putting A321 with J seating on the Tasman to enable the wide body aircraft to be removed to enable a better long haul schedule to operate. Enabling the wide body fleet to do more long haul flights per day is better value for money then sending them over to Australia

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 136):
You missed my point completely, the new NZ livery now has two logos on it, the Emirates Team NZ Silver Fern thingo

Are you talking about the fern on the ETNZ boat looking like the NZ fern livery?

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 137):
NZ4 1330 (Allows for domestic transfers and NZ700/NZ176 mostly)

Presume that would give an LAX arrival of around 6am?


User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7166 posts, RR: 13
Reply 140, posted (10 months 23 hours ago) and read 5988 times:

Quoting 777ER (Reply 139):
Presume that would give an LAX arrival of around 6am?

Correct. NZ4 0545 NZ6 0815.


User currently offlinesunrisevalley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 4867 posts, RR: 5
Reply 141, posted (10 months 22 hours ago) and read 5971 times:

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 140):
Correct. NZ4 0545 NZ6 0815.

Why not IAH for one of them?


User currently onlineDavidByrne From New Zealand, joined Sep 2007, 1633 posts, RR: 2
Reply 142, posted (10 months 16 hours ago) and read 5870 times:

Quoting 777ER (Reply 139):
Aerorobnz was talking about putting A321 with J seating on the Tasman to enable the wide body aircraft to be removed to enable a better long haul schedule to operate. Enabling the wide body fleet to do more long haul flights per day is better value for money then sending them over to Australia

The present long-haul schedule has evolved to faciltate connections at both ends for the North American flights and at the far end for Asian flights. Realistically, North American flights will stay more or less as-is because there isn't a better way of getting feed at both ends. Daylight flights from North America do not appear to have prospered when QF has tried them, and there's a big problem with timing to get feed at both ends, which has to be the gold standard. Realistically, a noon departure is the very earliest that could be attempted from (say) Los Angeles to allow East Coast connecting traffic, but such a flight would arrive in AKL at 2200 (summer), with no Transtasman feed possible without scheduling later flights to multiple destinations and requiring more crews to overnight in Australia. And even then, a SYD connection woudl not be possible because of curfew issues.

North American flights on a daytime schedule would be slightly more practical in the NZ winter, as the time differences work more in the airline's favour. However it would still mean a 2000 arrival in AKL, and a complete rejigging of a Transtasman schedule which is pretty much running at maximum efficiency now (two return trips per day, with almost all aircraft NZ-overnighting (except for the last flight to SYD). So I just can't see any significant change to the North American schedules.

However, Asian flights could be operated as daytime flights outbound and overnight flights inbound and still maintain connections in both directions. For example:
AKL0900-1830PVG2215-1445
AKL1000-1630HKG1910-1100
AKL-NRT already operates according to this kind of schedule.

Doing the PVG and HKG rotations according to this kind of schedule save a whole aircraft on each service when twinned with a North American rotation. Is there a reason why overnight flights on PVG and HKG in both directions are preferred, even at the cost of having to maintain a fleet with two additional WB aircraft?



This is not my beautiful house . . . This is not my beautiful wife
User currently onlineDavidByrne From New Zealand, joined Sep 2007, 1633 posts, RR: 2
Reply 143, posted (10 months 16 hours ago) and read 5873 times:

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 141):
Why not IAH for one of them?

NZ3/4 appears to have a longer "season" each year, and I agree that IAH would be the next most logical destination in North America, and could be introduced as a substitute at a minimum of three flights per week. I suspect that it isn't in contention until the 789s arrive because at 7,400 miles it would be stretching the range of a 77E without suffering a serious payload penalty, I think.



This is not my beautiful house . . . This is not my beautiful wife
User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 144, posted (10 months 15 hours ago) and read 5867 times:

Aerorobnz,
Bear in mind that the full-service (wide body) flight from BNE arrives year round at AKL at 1730. Unless you're going to reintroduce Business Class on the earlier flight from BNE, your flights across the Pacific are leaving before the feed arrives.

Personally, I like your model. But I also agree with Borghetti: by all means have an a la carte short-haul product, but every plane needs Business Class on every international flight.

Brisbane and Gold Coast, for example, could work much better with every flight operated with an A321 configured Virgin-style.

No Space Plus, but two rows of 2-2 Business Class, with unsold seats hawked aggressively for paid upgrades at check-in. And then 200 or so seats of 3-3 Economy, with 31 inch pitch throughout.

If loyal customers want more space, they can use their own money or points to upgrade to the pointy end. Don't gift them Space Plus.


User currently offlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6406 posts, RR: 39
Reply 145, posted (10 months 15 hours ago) and read 5856 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 136):
the new NZ livery now has two logos on it, the Emirates Team NZ Silver Fern thingo and the Koru

And the more annoying aspect is that the fern is larger than the koru, which seems to place more significance on the fern. I still wonder what it'd look like if they threw the fern in the place of where the Pacific Wave used to be, rather than at the back. Either way, I'm still not a fan!

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 137):
That will be boring real quick.It's an even smaller fleet than the 332s

At least it's a new plane! A330s are getting a bit boring at AKL too.. I used to think they were special a few years back.

[Edited 2013-10-01 14:49:42]


It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently offlineZKSUJ From New Zealand, joined May 2004, 7086 posts, RR: 12
Reply 146, posted (10 months 13 hours ago) and read 5774 times:

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 138):

I know what you're saying and I am in no way suggesting that A380s take priority. I just think that it is a bit slack of AIAL to let things get this way all due to a 1 hour delay with a 77W. 3 A380 gates for 3 planes. Yes delays happen but it's another situation of AIAL playing catch up and not having enough resources to cope with things that don't go according to plan.

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 145):
And the more annoying aspect is that the fern is larger than the koru, which seems to place more significance on the fern. I still wonder what it'd look like if they threw the fern in the place of where the Pacific Wave used to be, rather than at the back. Either way, I'm still not a fan!

It would be interesting to see how it looks on smaller planes like the BEH, DH3 and AT7. The fern would take up half the freakin fuselage and look very odd


User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7166 posts, RR: 13
Reply 147, posted (10 months 12 hours ago) and read 5728 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 144):
Unless you're going to reintroduce Business Class on the earlier flight from BNE

Precisely. Because you're in QLD I'll use BNE and OOL as my example.

Take today for example, we have NZ135 as a 773 this morning 0930, and NZ139 at 1600 as a 772. I propose to operate at least 2 flights a day with A321 (with J Class for direct connections) and maybe once a day with an all Y A320 a day in lieu of those. I'd have an evening A321 to SYD/BNE/MEL as NZ709/NZ721 & NZ739 for the evening transfers off my proposed NZ3 & NZ5. A320s would stay all Y for any flights ex CHC/WLG/ZQN and for off peak/low demand AKL (read NZL local traffic)services to places like CNS/OOL/ADL/NAN/IUE/RAR. OOL for example can remain an 0630 A320 flight - nobody transfers from longhaul on them anyway.

Let's say the revised schedule for BNE would be
NZ735 A321 0930 (2 CL)
NZ737 A320 1230 (ALL Y)
NZ739 A321 1930 2 CL)

Quoting ZKSUJ (Reply 146):
Yes delays happen but it's another situation of AIAL playing catch up and not having enough resources to cope with things that don't go according to plan.

Welcome to my world...I fight this battle every day at work..


User currently offlinenz2 From New Zealand, joined Aug 2007, 213 posts, RR: 0
Reply 148, posted (10 months 11 hours ago) and read 5677 times:

Hi Guys

My wife and I are doing our bi-annual trip to Hawaii next Thursday 10th, travelling up in Y+ (772 and hoping of upgrage to Biz using 1 up) and coming home in Y since it is a night flight and only J class product available (763) which is 3 times the cost of Y. Can anyone advise if there are spare J seats on NZ009 Friday 18th HNL/AKL? When I do a dummy booking it it returns saying "No business available" indicating a full flight. I was hoping to try for a recognition upgrade just on the off chance....Cheers


User currently offlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6406 posts, RR: 39
Reply 149, posted (10 months 11 hours ago) and read 5656 times:

Quoting nz2 (Reply 148):

Nope, all the availability showing is Y2 B1. What a packed flight!



It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently offlinetimb777 From New Zealand, joined Dec 2009, 201 posts, RR: 0
Reply 150, posted (10 months 10 hours ago) and read 5632 times:

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 147):
Let's say the revised schedule for BNE would be
NZ735 A321 0930 (2 CL)
NZ737 A320 1230 (ALL Y)
NZ739 A321 1930 2 CL)

This would undoubtedly make the EK380 the premium AKL-BNE-AKL service the one to book for savvy premium fliers. I wouldn't be surprised if NZ likes to keep a top end J product on the Tasman market for competition reasons, in addition to PE which fits the WD model well and is a point of differentiation for star FF's.

Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 142):
However, Asian flights could be operated as daytime flights outbound and overnight flights inbound and still maintain connections in both directions. For example:
AKL0900-1830PVG2215-1445
AKL1000-1630HKG1910-1100
AKL-NRT already operates according to this kind of schedule.

Doing the PVG and HKG rotations according to this kind of schedule save a whole aircraft on each service when twinned with a North American rotation

This could work as it keeps east coast connectivity to the US services. I guess problems arise if PVG is not daily as this would disrupt the cycle. Additionally, HKG is business heavy & the current flight times work great for business travellers who "need to be in HKG or China tomorrow" as they don't miss a day's business travelling (can mean a lot in certain business markets).

I think there is definitely a niche for the a321 in the NZ fleet, but don't think it should, or ever will, replace all wide-body TT flights. I can see a role for it on certain TT flights, RAR, NAN & PPT (direct & AKL-RAR-PPT). I can't see Perth ever going narrow body- the pointy end of the market seemingly demands and is willing to pay for a premium product & 10 abreast 777 Y gives the penny pinchers what they want.


User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 151, posted (10 months 10 hours ago) and read 5602 times:

Aerorobnz,
Your model is fine, but it might be a bit light on Tasman Business. A fortnight ago I took the same NZ136 BNE-AKL as the Springboks, booked a month in advance, and 77E Business Class had been sold out for weeks. I put in an upgrade request anyway, figuring that as a GE if a seat came available I'd get it. No dice.

Personally, I still think S2S is flawed compared with the Virgin execution of virtually the same model.

I'd just steal their model, as follows:

Saver Lite = Seat
Saver = Seat + Bag
Flexi = Works
Premium Economy = Works Deluxe, separate cabin where offered.
Business = Business, easy process for advance or airport up sells.

It is absurd that currently "M class SEAT" gets more Airpoints and Status points than "Q class WORKS DELUXE". And that passengers with long-haul Premium Economy tickets get shafted with Works when seated near short-haul Economy passengers enjoying Works Deluxe.

The Parton S2S model was innovative and a good prototype. But the next generation Virgin model keeps all the benefits, while being simple and less provocative to confused passengers.

NZ and Bruce Parton can be proud that they developed the first generation model. But now they should accept that their partner Virgin Australia has refined it, and they should adopt the new developments.


User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7166 posts, RR: 13
Reply 152, posted (10 months 9 hours ago) and read 5615 times:

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 141):
Why not IAH for one of them?

I pondered that, then I thought no, that is the domain on the 772 & 789 fleets to build up the new routes. I was specifically talking of the 77W fleet whose use is ridiculously restrictive to one routing currently. The 77W should be the go to aircraft for established routings of a certain size. I do agree however, that the other option other than retiming NZ4/NZ6 is to pull back from LAX completely except for NZ2, in which case a daily 77W to IAH may well work. To me however, regardless of destination, the US flights need to be more evenly staggered throughout the day. IAH for example is definitely a candidate for either 1230 or 0030 departures out of AKL. What IAH/SFO/LAX needs as a whole is some form of differentiation/different connections possible so that those going to certain destinations will invariably travel on a specific departure out of AKL.

Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 142):
Is there a reason why overnight flights on PVG and HKG in both directions are preferred

Yes you could retime those too. I elected to keep NZ87/NZ80 the same in my model because I would make it a 77W service, however I would certainly make PVG/NRT/DPS and any additional asian destinations early morning operations - potentially connecting with red eye BNE/MEL/RAR/APW overnighters for easy connection onto asia services from Australia. A second daily HKG with a 789 in the morning might work too.


User currently offlineZKOJH From China, joined Sep 2004, 1660 posts, RR: 1
Reply 153, posted