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Norwegian Has Had Enough Of Dreamliner Nightmare 2  
User currently offlineiowaman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (2 years 8 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 42721 times:

Due to length of the first thread, here is part two.

Part one: Norwegian Has Had Enough Of Dreamliner Nightmare (by Mortyman Sep 23 2013 in Civil Aviation)

275 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
User currently offlinevfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 4511 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (2 years 8 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 42400 times:

Some subcontractors do it better than the firm subcontracting. Calling it Gold is just marketing. Clearly, Boeing has a serious learning curve however.

Funny how DY is getting flak for allegedly rushing into 787 ops but this is the closest thing to a mild criticism I have read in 200+ posts about Boeing's GOLD programme which apparently does not deliver. And in the business world it is usually frowned upon if one partner is getting paid for learning how to perform instead of actually performing...

User currently offlineSKAirbus From Norway, joined Oct 2007, 2135 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (2 years 8 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 42060 times:

Norwegian CEO Bjørn Kjos has issued an apology on Facebook re. the problems (in Norwegian). I have translated it:

"I want to apologise to all our passengers that have been affected by the unacceptable delays on our long haul routes recently. I understand how frustrating it must be to wait for hours for your plane to depart.

Last night Norwegian had a meeting with Boeing where the company gave a clear message that the situation is unacceptable. Boeing said that they will put together a dedicated team that will continuously follow Norwegian to ensure that any technical challenges that occur going forward are dealt with immediately. In addition, they will make sure that the necessary spare parts are available at all airports we fly to and from with the Dreamliner so that our passengers won't be hit by large delays".

So it seems that Boeing are taking this seriously... Hopefully this won't mean large delays going forward!

Next Flights: LHR-OSL (738), OSL-CPH (320), CPH-LHR (321), LHR-HEL (359), HEL-LHR (359)
User currently offlineNorlander From Faroe Islands, joined Sep 2007, 189 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 8 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 40086 times:

There are several noteworthy things from the first thread and some things that are less so, some of our North American friends seem to think that NAS is a small tinpot airline, some posters on both sides tries to drag this into the ongoing A v B flame war, etc.

Norwegian, which is a large airline in the narrow body market segment, is new to long haul wide bodies.
DY is the third largest LCC in Europe - with 17.7 million passengers and operates 68 737-800, 10 737-300, but only 2 787-8 (out of a total order of 8). It has another 269 airframes on their order books, and is used to start up phases and growing pains. For a comparison it is roughly the size of AS - ~75% and growing fast.

DY has long been a loyal Boeing customer and only recently added their first Airbus to their order books (320NEO - none delivered so far), but they did lease two A340 while the 787-8 was coming into the fleet.

Norwegian has signed onto Boeing's Gold Care fleet services, so it's not the "usual" problem of local techs not knowing what to do - it is actually Boeing's problem both as a supplier of airframes and the provider of fleet services.

The bottom line: This looks bad for the Dreamliner (marketing must hate that name by now) and for Boeing's Gold Care fleet services. The only option is for Boeing to get their house in order or risk losing a loyal and large customer - their last order was valued at $21.5B!!

[Edited 2013-09-26 07:59:39]

Longtime Lurker
User currently offlinewingman From Seychelles, joined May 1999, 2882 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (2 years 8 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 39896 times:

This suggestion may be completely idiotic but at some point Boeing would have to consider free leases to carriers with the bad frames, and I'm sure they know which line numbers these frames are, and maybe just rebuild the ones now in service from top to bottom. That's easily 1-2 $B right there but the onslaught of bad news is getting worse by the day. Or at minimum Boeing should have a fleet of 767s/777s prepositioned across Europe, the US and Japan to cover flights that go tech. Still it seems that only option 1 solves the problem long-term.

User currently onlineholzmann From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 510 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 8 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 39697 times:

People sometimes refer to the FIAT car brand as Fix It Again Tony. Similarly, many car enthusiasts quip about how certain sports cars from certain manufacturers should be followed at all times by a repair truck and mechanic.

I am getting the sense that Boeing should provide a 777F to follow each and every 787 flight to make sure it flies on time without mechanical failure (or incident).

This all smells like a ticking time bomb to me. Boeing WAS the last great hope of manufacturing in America. And now they've completely ruined the image of American manufacturing with the LemonLiner.

Perhaps airlines in the USA can refer to their state's Lemon Law for dealing with Boeing?

User currently offlineSKAirbus From Norway, joined Oct 2007, 2135 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (2 years 8 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 39514 times:

Quoting holzmann (Reply 5):
Boeing WAS the last great hope of manufacturing in America. And now they've completely ruined the image of American manufacturing with the LemonLiner.

Don't worry. Airbus will soon be along to save the day... Mobile, Alabama!

Next Flights: LHR-OSL (738), OSL-CPH (320), CPH-LHR (321), LHR-HEL (359), HEL-LHR (359)
User currently offlineoldeuropean From Germany, joined May 2005, 2091 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (2 years 8 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 39285 times:

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 6):
Don't worry. Airbus will soon be along to save the day... Mobile, Alabama!

Yes, that reminds me on the shabby manufactured Mercedes M-class, build in Vance, Alabama!

Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
User currently offlineOM617 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 63 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 8 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 38401 times:

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 7):
Yes, that reminds me on the shabby manufactured Mercedes M-class, build in Vance, Alabama!

PLEASE don't remind me of those albatrosses! They weren't so pretty to look at, either. It took a few years, but they did get their act together.

Don't Airbus make 320s in China? How are they holding up compared to the Toulouse/Finkenwerder models?

Oops, drifting off the DY/787 issues. Their aircraft are newer build, theoretically should have all the updates/mods...


User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 8712 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (2 years 8 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 38127 times:

Quoting wingman (Reply 4):
Or at minimum Boeing should have a fleet of 767s/777s prepositioned across Europe, the US and Japan to cover flights that go tech. Still it seems that only option 1 solves the problem long-term.

I would be shocked if it were not cheaper for Boeing to simply buy back the a/c paying compensation allowing the carriers to select an Airbus product - PC thrown away - than pre-position fleets of plane sand crews with all the necessary paper work to be able to operate freely into the regions / countries involved.

User currently offlineCplKlinger From United States of America, joined Oct 2010, 286 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 8 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 37691 times:

Quoting holzmann (Reply 5):
This all smells like a ticking time bomb to me. Boeing WAS the last great hope of manufacturing in America. And now they've completely ruined the image of American manufacturing with the LemonLiner.

That's funny, considering most "foreign" cars are now made in the US. The Honda Accord, long a standard in reliability is made in my hometown of Greensburg, IN. Toyota has a few plants here and in Ohio.

I think folks just like to dump on Boeing here because it's the popular thing to do. Are there issues? Definitely, but not "ruining the face of American manufacturing" type issues. Get a grip on yourself.

User currently offlineRedChili From Norway, joined Jul 2005, 2394 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (2 years 8 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 37471 times:

Norwegian had an emergency meeting with Boeing executives yesterday, including Raymond Connor. Norwegian news media have been full of reports from that meeting. Boeing refused to talk to journalists afterwards, but DY has released some information:

DY claims that all spare parts are located in London, and that's the reason why it takes so much time go get the plane fixed when there's a problem in OSL, ARN, JFK or BKK. Now, I obviously have no idea if this is the whole truth, but if they stock all spare parts in London, maybe they should call it Boeing Clay Care instead of Gold Care.

DY also claims that Boeing had approved their 18 hour per day schedule. I'm totally flabbergasted if that is the whole truth. That would mean that both Boeing and DY live in some kind of fantasy world concerning fleet planning. In your dreams ...

Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
User currently offlineSonomaFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2213 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 8 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 37351 times:
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I'm not sure if we'll ever get full disclosure of this meeting or representations made by Boeing or their assumptions based on DY representations.

Bottom line: spares should be located at the very least at DY bases. Given JFK is a major international gateway, they should have spares available there for 787s. For BKK, the spares could be in SIN or DEL (where AI is based).

If there are certain parts which are failing more often, obviously, stock more of those parts.

User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 18239 posts, RR: 50
Reply 13, posted (2 years 8 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 37291 times:

Quoting RedChili (Reply 11):
DY claims that all spare parts are located in London

Correct, and Boeing said to resolve these problems:

"They agreed to put up spare part stocks at destinations we fly to," Kjos told Reuters. "And they'll send a dedicated team of experts to Norwegian so if there's a problem popping up, they can immediately solve it."

"If you look at the other 787 customers, most of them have technical problems too," Jenssen said. "It's a performance reliability problem and a quality issue from Boeing."


Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
User currently offlineB777LRF From Luxembourg, joined Nov 2008, 1838 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (2 years 8 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 36462 times:

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 12):
For BKK, the spares could be in SIN or DEL (where AI is based).

Seriously? If placing the stock in London didn't work for Oslo and Stockholm, around 2 hours of flying away, how can Singapore (2.5 hours) or Delhi (4.5 hours) work for Bangkok? And, of all places, Delhi! Do you have any idea of the Indian bureaucracy and how difficult it is to get foreign parts, rotables particularly, into country - let alone out again without them having been 'used'? Surely this is a poor attempt at a bad joke!

From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
User currently offlineAA94 From United States of America, joined Aug 2011, 662 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (2 years 8 months 21 hours ago) and read 33360 times:

Quoting holzmann (Reply 5):
This all smells like a ticking time bomb to me. Boeing WAS the last great hope of manufacturing in America. And now they've completely ruined the image of American manufacturing with the LemonLiner.

Dramatic much? This is one of the most idiotic things I've read on this forum.

If you can't take the heat, you best get out of the kitchen
User currently offlineBraybuddy From Ireland, joined Aug 2004, 6394 posts, RR: 30
Reply 16, posted (2 years 8 months 15 hours ago) and read 33017 times:

Just comparing aircraft on the BA Source, and, since their introduction just a day apart, A380 G-XLEA has had an almost daily utilisation comprising 91 flights, while 787 G-ZBJA has flown just 24 times, with sometimes days between flights. Their second A380 has flown six times since it was introduced four days ago. 787 G-ZBJB has flown 26 times since its introduction a month ago, again with gaps in service (in once instance 10 days). G-ZBJC has flown 22 times since its introduction, again with some gaps of a few days in service. I know the A380 is a more mature aircraft, but it's surprising to see so many days missing from the 787s' schedules. Anyone any more info?


User currently offlineoldeuropean From Germany, joined May 2005, 2091 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (2 years 8 months 15 hours ago) and read 32967 times:

Quoting holzmann (Reply 5):
People sometimes refer to the FIAT car brand as Fix It Again Tony.

Funny, in Germany we refer to FIAT as "Fehler in allen Teilen". (flaws in all parts)   *

But kidding aside, Boeing is definitely responsible for obviously existing flaws in their product. DY is not the only airline, which is furious about the 787 and their responses.

* But I have to admit that, in the last years, they've got their act together and the quality of their cars has increased.

[Edited 2013-09-27 00:17:55]

Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
User currently offlineLN-KGL From Norway, joined Sep 1999, 1154 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (2 years 8 months 14 hours ago) and read 32759 times:

It wonders me why parts are needed on a brand new aircraft. Aren't these supposed to live longer than a few months, or are the 787s getting sub standard parts on the production line?

[Edited 2013-09-27 01:12:56]

User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 18239 posts, RR: 50
Reply 19, posted (2 years 8 months 14 hours ago) and read 32747 times:

There was another issue:


Norwegian Air says suffered another 787 Dreamliner breakdown on Friday which delayed a flight from Bangkok to Stockholm

Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
User currently offlineworldrider From Switzerland, joined Nov 2007, 306 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 8 months 14 hours ago) and read 32737 times:

Quoting OM617 (Reply 8):
Don't Airbus make 320s in China? How are they holding up compared to the Toulouse/Finkenwerder models?

no they dont MAKE them there, they are ASSEMBLED

User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 18239 posts, RR: 50
Reply 21, posted (2 years 8 months 14 hours ago) and read 32674 times:

Quoting OM617 (Reply 8):
Don't Airbus make 320s in China? How are they holding up compared to the Toulouse/Finkenwerder models?

Airbus biggest fear was quality control so they had send a team from Europe to China to inspect the first assembled birds. Once the factory workers were through the learning curve, the team left China.

[Edited 2013-09-27 01:13:17]

Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
User currently offlineB777LRF From Luxembourg, joined Nov 2008, 1838 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (2 years 8 months 12 hours ago) and read 32348 times:

Quoting LN-KGL (Reply 18):
It wonders me why parts are needed on a brand new aircraft. Aren't these supposed to live longer than a few months, or are the 787s getting sub standard parts on the production line?

Parts will always be needed, the trick when introducing a new aircraft type is to know which parts will see the highest usage and which will be the most critical, then order a 'start-up' package that fits those needs. The manufacturer will issue a recommended list of parts, which the customer will then buy all or parts of. In DY's case, however, the actual buying and stocking is also part of their Gold care package.

From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
User currently offlineSKAirbus From Norway, joined Oct 2007, 2135 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (2 years 8 months 12 hours ago) and read 32288 times:

This isn't going to go down well:

Huge news in Norway is that one of DY's Dreamliners has been grounded (again!), this time due to hydrolic problems and just a couple of days after Boeing and DY's agreement on spare parts etc.

The flight was due to operate from BKK to ARN.

Article here: http://www.nrk.no/norge/dreamliner-fra-norwegian-pa-bakken-1.11266405 (in Norwegian)

However, I have taken the liberty of translating it to English. Being a translator, it doesn't take long!


"Communication advisor Astrid Mannion has confirmed to NRK.no that there is a fault with the hydralic pump that has the resulted in the plane being grounded, and that it is not the first time this fault has occured on the new plane.

She informed us that the flight from Bangkok to Stockholm has been cancelled and that the airline is doing all it can in order to obtain tickets for the 197 passengers with other airlines. It is not easy, she explains, and as such cannot say how long it will take.

Astrid Mannion also has no overview of how many Norwegians were meant to be on the plane.

When the fault has been corrected the plane will be flown to Stockholm without passengers and subsequent monitoring will happen there, she informs.

Norwegian has experienced a number of problems with its Dreamliner aircraft recently and this had let to large delays. Earlier this week the top leadership of Boeing visited Norwegian in Oslo to try and resolve the problems.

Norwegian boss Bjørn Kjos said after the meeting with Boeing-management that the biggest problem was that it took so long to get reserve parts. The reserve parts are in London and it takes many hours to repair the damages. He said that Boeing has promised to make reserve parts available in more locations.

Boeing also promised to send a team of engineers to monitor the two aircraft closely.

Norwegian has two Dreamliner aircraft which operate on long haul routes to New York and Bangkok. The plane now grounded in Bangkok should have flown to Stockholm but it is not yet clear when the plane will fly again".

[Edited 2013-09-27 03:59:05]

Next Flights: LHR-OSL (738), OSL-CPH (320), CPH-LHR (321), LHR-HEL (359), HEL-LHR (359)
User currently onlineB747forever From Sweden, joined May 2007, 17696 posts, RR: 10
Reply 24, posted (2 years 8 months 11 hours ago) and read 32195 times:

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 23):
The flight was due to operate from BKK to ARN.

As of now the flight shows with a 6 hour delay. This means that today's afternoon flight to JFK will be at least 4.5 hours late.

Work Hard, Fly Right
25 SKAirbus : According NRK the flight has been cancelled and will be flown back to ARN empty. I think we can safely say the JFK flight will also be cancelled pend
26 Someone83 : It's EI-LNB/LN112 (again) which is stuck in BKK
27 B747forever : Unless DY can charter another aircraft they will have to cancel the JFK-ARN leg also. What a mess for DY.
28 Post contains links seansasLCY : Here is an interesting article (in Norwegian) about the problems. http://e24.no/spesial/norwegian
29 shufflemoomin : It's sad to see the 787 still suffering huge problems. You have to wonder how long this will continue and how they plan to solve it. I finally saw it
30 Someone83 : Probably not, as EI-LNA wasn't scheduled to due any flights today, so if they can send it from OSL to ARN it should be able to operate ARN-JFK
31 Crosswind : Not sure that's anything to do with the aircraft reliability. Due to the delivery delays as a result of the grounding, the 787 deliveries were more b
32 JonssonF : By reading the timetable at Norwegian.se it is clear that the 787 is scheduled 6 days a week with resting Fridays in Oslo and Sundays in Stockholm. Ho
33 tarheelwings : Posts like these are the reason I joined a.net....thank you sir! Alex
34 TheRedBaron : If that happens, it will rain on hell followed by a blizzard. The way I see it they saw the performance warranties of the Aircraft, consulted Boeing,
35 delta777jet : How is LOT one of the first customers in Europe is doing with their Dreamliners ? I did not heard much bad news out of there.....
36 Post contains links travelavnut : Well..... LOT Gives Boeing Ultimatum About 787 Compensation (by Gonzalo Sep 26 2013 in Civil Aviation)
37 mjoelnir : The problems that DY is having are not operational but technical. The flight schedule is 6 days flying one day rest. On average about 15 hours a day,
38 kanban : Boeing Spares ... the main store is at Seatac, there are regional stores around the world (used to be Singapore, Belgium, and NYC, although I think t
39 mjoelnir : FAL It does not matter in this case what Boeing does or does not stock. DY bought the whole package regarding service from Boeing, that includes manag
40 Post contains links blrsea : I don't know if this article was posted before or not. It lists some of the problems that DY has had since inducting the 787s. The issues seem to be a
41 sankaps : Some of this information is pretty damning, seems like poor QC. No excuses really, 4 years after first flight and 2 years after EIS to continue to ha
42 kanban : Three of the four replacements are not considered spare-able.. even for a Boeing fleet. they are unique one off events.. Hydraulic hoses are generall
43 RyanairGuru : That's what I'm thinking as well. I 100% acknowledge that Norwegian should probably have stronger operational contingencies in place, BUT these issue
44 ferpe : We now have 2 times problems with hydraulics pumps (the last problem added after the list was compiled was a pump). This is surprising, there is noth
45 mjoelnir : The service for the DY B 787 is farmed out to Boeing including spare parts management, a central part of Boeing GoldCare services. Unless you can sho
46 Post contains images art : If you charge a client extra for a service to keep their equipment working in a timely manner, that is the service you should provide.
47 StTim : With the amount of outsourced suppliers Boeing must have been looking for a huge reduction in the stores they had to carry. If I was an airline and th
48 DTW2HYD : Boeing maintains inventory based on historical MTBF data. It appears even the most reliable parts so far are failing quickly and randomly on 787. My
49 Post contains links uberflieger : according to Reuters DY is returning the 787 currently stuck in Bangkok and won't take her back until Boeing can assure a more reliable performance ht
50 StTim : Sending it back to Boeing is a pretty big step. In some ways I feel for Boeing. There is a constant stream of bad news about the 787. In some ways I d
51 DTW2HYD : Probably lost in translation, it is more like leaving your troublesome car at dealership until it is fixed.
52 KarelXWB : The way I understand it, it will stay in Stockholm until Boeing has resolved all the issues with the aircraft. [Edited 2013-09-28 06:20:20]
53 mjoelnir : Who does fly it back to Stockholm, Norwegian or Boeing?
54 KarelXWB : Good question. I'm not sure if pilots are part of the Gold Care service?
55 mjoelnir : But it could be part of putting the frame in the hands of Boeing.
56 KarelXWB : I don't think they'll have to slow down production. We have seen several quality issues with the 787 (incorrect installed wiring, missing oil filters
57 Post contains links Mortyman : Boeing:-Sorry for drawbacks Boeing states that it shall make necessary improvements to ensure the aircraft's operational stability. - The decision is
58 RedChili : Norwegian had their own pilots in BKK ready to fly the airplane to ARN with passengers on Friday. If they're going to wait for Boeing to send their p
59 mjoelnir : The plain is to be flown without passengers, the passengers were booked on other flights, further passenger flights are to be done with a HyFly A 340
60 KarelXWB : I think he means the stranded airplane has to wait 24 hours if Boeing needs to send its own pilots.
61 PHX787 : I don't know what Norwegian culture says about apologies. but here in Japan, Apologies are almost a way back to credibility....but apologizing too mu
62 mjoelnir : But if Norwegian said, over to you, to Boeing, than it is a decision of Boeing where they wont to repair it.
63 kanban : So we're posting based on assumptions.. It seems nobody knows what is and is not in the contract. There is a big difference between managing the spar
64 Post contains links Bogi : Embarrassing http://seattletimes.com/html/boeinga...18424_apeunorwegiandreamliner.html
65 packsonflight : Sounds a bit like the quality issues SAS had as a launch customer when the 737-600 entered service.
66 Post contains links schwege : http://boeing.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=20295&item=2173 I know, that's not the actual contract but probably as close as you can get. From what I u
67 Tristarsteve : You keep pushing this line. Norwegian does not have any B787 mechanics. Boeing supplies all mechanics for the Norwegian B787. Gold care is different
68 Post contains links BestWestern : Reuters is reporting the following http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...ype=RSS&feedName=industrialsSector (Reuters) - Budget airline Norwegian
69 Bogi : = grounding
70 kanban : from the media release "in which Boeing manages scheduled and minor maintenance" notice the word "manages" ..Much different from performs. Boeing has
71 peterinlisbon : I always thought that Norweigan was taking a bit of a gamble by staking its future on a new type of plane that had never been flown before. As it was,
72 Speedbored : I'm sure your right about that. Having worked with a lot of senior management in a huge number of organisations and, in more recent years, specialisi
73 LJ : It seems that the only one benefiting from this saga is HiFly, which gets a lot of extra revenue from DY. Moreover, DY is probably glad that HiFly inc
74 Post contains images KarelXWB : Indeed, except I wouldn't want to see the fuel bill for those A340s
75 Tristarsteve : On the ramp at ARN, a company called Nayak is employed by Boeing to maintain the Norwegian B787. There are Boeing managers on site who closely monito
76 Post contains links schwege : You, sir, are wrong. http://www.boeing.com/commercial/goldcare/pdf/goldcare.pdf
77 Bogi : If paid another, why would you not want to see the fuel bill?
78 Post contains links KarelXWB : Well, the A343 burns 30% more fuel so if I were DY management, I wouldn't want to see the bill. On the other hand, the A340 is cheap to lease. http:/
79 mjoelnir : This is at least as much speculation as min. DY contracted the service out to Boeing for the B 787. What do you think that includes? DY mechanics do
80 Bogi : Their will is pushing not to me.
81 mjoelnir : I do not care about the name of the program. DY contracted the service out to Boeing. Boeing again contracted the service out to some maintenance pro
82 LJ : I doubt very much. Airlines such as HiFly or Titan are known for their hefty lease rates (rates for last minute ad hoc charters are not low). It's no
83 DTW2HYD : I wouldn't dismiss kanban's theory so easily. In IT/SAP world we have experts from SAP on-site playing an advisory role, escalating issues with SAP G
84 sankaps : Seems like you missed pot #82. Sure, successful airlines like Norwegian that have been in business for years make multi-million dollar purchases base
85 SonomaFlyer : Whether Boeing manages the program a computer in Seattle or via on-site managers who oversee some sub-contractor makes zero difference. DY paid for f
86 kanban : I still see assumptions based on beliefs that are unsubstantiated.. However, I have contacted the Boeing Fleet Services people to a fuller description
87 DTW2HYD : I have customers with millions of dollars of IT assets on the books from deals happened between management and vendors on golf courses. Now it is up
88 Post contains links and images mjoelnir : Do me the favor read was was posted in reply 82: http://www.boeing.com/commercial/goldcare/pdf/goldcare.pdf "Maintenance Execution The physical execu
89 part147 : You are not helping Boeing's image if you really believe that ... "DY fell for Boeing's brochure and marketing fluff and purchased the service thinkin
90 PW100 : Well, EASA rules, I would expect, would apply to this Norwegian operation, either through their Norway operation, or the Irish lease (the planes have
91 kanban : Thanks for putting the argument in a real framework. ..
92 Post contains links 747megatop : Per FlightGlobal, Norwegian has taken out one of it's 787s from service - http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...of-its-787s-out-of-service-391087/
93 RedChili : KarelXWB, that's correct. Perhaps, but the decision had already been made to fly the airplane empty to ARN, and in reply 53, you asked who will fly i
94 Post contains images cmf : MBA = Must Be Avoided Not just that. I like managers to get their hands dirty every so often too. It is amazing how quick people forget when they don
95 lutfi : Boeing can not insist the SCD manufacturers maintain spares stock.. they can only insist that they have an AOG process and response. Kanban - but in t
96 kanban : The problem with some, not all or even a majority, is customer uniqueness.. and revision levels.. Now most do maintain a level of spares however if t
97 sankaps : Kanban -- fully agree. However I think patience is wearing thin because it is now 4 years after first flight and 2 years after EIS. Materials, QC, an
98 Bogi : This active thread is interesting and amazing. Earlier topics such as "787 problems" (directly for all the problems) are have been prevented, as if th
99 anfromme : Just to put that into context - leasing any plane last minute/ad-hoc from HiFly or the likes is expensive; it's nothing unique to the A340 here. With
100 mjoelnir : You did not wait to see so I post a comment. All the arguments you are bringing do not remove the responsibility of the OEM to guaranty the flow and
101 Norlander : The thing that sets this thread apart from previous threads about the 787 is that here it's not only an airframe issue, but a deeper problem with Boei
102 goosebayguy : How many aircraft does Boeing produce in Chicago? Strange to have the HQ so far from the work place. Must be tricky to keep the ball rolling when thig
103 Post contains images par13del : Maybe the engineers in Seattle preferred it this way as they got rid of the paper pushers who tend to just get in the way when one is trying to turn
104 kanban : All Commercial Airplane activities are centered in Seattle.. as a separate company within Boeing, there is no need to daily oversight from the MBA's
105 Norlander : So you disagree with the framework that PW100 provided in reply 90? If you do not (which I assumed, given your reply to his post), then how can you h
106 kanban : It may only be a perception problem.. I'm just not willing to go gloom and doom without actual contract knowledge. and we know how the press can make
107 trex8 : Its all about saving$$$$ and providing best sheareholder value which is not synonymous with best customer value!! I thought that with all the time B
108 mjoelnir : Subcontracting seems to be the main excuse of Boeing today. Of course he will not comment on Norwegian. And you live in the make believe world were B
109 LJ : According to the latest schedule change, DY will use the A340 until and including October 11th.
110 kanban : They did comment on Norwegian and the current situation.. I can not identify that contact I spoke with. There is a specific command center for just t
111 mjoelnir : The thing what got me going in this thread is the picking on the carrier. Lets go through my assumptions: Assumption # one: DY contracted Boeing for
112 cmf : Kanban, I have not comment on this issue before because I have waited for more information. Looking at what you write it seems to me that Boeing has
113 JoeCanuck : This isn't the end of the world. Norwegian has been having problems with their brand, new planes. Right or wrong, it got reported by the media and sin
114 PW100 : Does that mean that Boeing is the EASA approved Part M organisation, and Nayak is the (customer chosen) Part 145 MRO provider? It is pretty clear to
115 icareflies : Your assumption is correct.
116 robffm2 : I really don't see the reason why the A340 should be cheaper. Any airline leasing the plane needs the lift it provides urgently. Not because they lik
117 kanban : The fine distinction is between managing a group of tasks for the carrier and performing the detailed tasks.. Boeing provide many managing function f
118 Post contains links KarelXWB : An old A340 is much cheaper to lease than a A330 / 777, check Aircraft Values, And Lease Pricing - Spring 2013 (by LAXintl May 14 2013 in Civil Aviat
119 PITingres : Certainly the first one is wrong. Boeing is contracted for the service management, not the service. If you can't tell the difference after some of th
120 DTW2HYD : For large corporations in USA it is the norm to keep strategic planners and designers away from day to day grind. Otherwise they get pulled into cris
121 cmf : I do not understand why you make the distinction. If I hire someone to manage a task then I expect them to make sure the tasks they are hired to mana
122 schwege : Kanban, as there still is confusion about the matter and you seem to be the only one with something that could be considered proof-like, could you an
123 kanban : The contract does not include physical maintenance activities.. it includes scheduling maintenance activities.. Say a plane arrives back a the home b
124 mjoelnir : So you are saying DY has a contract with Boeing to schedule the service and than DY (not Boeing) has a separate contract with Nayak to perform the se
125 BestWestern : Norwegian has active control responsibility over all engineering and maintenance activities. Anyway, any updates on the 787 that was grounded? When i
126 kanban : While I am not sure whether Boeing or the airline holds the actual contract with Nayak, Norwegian selected them to be the MRO from a group of qualifi
127 sankaps : Even if we separate these two and say for argument's sake that Boeing is not responsible for Nayak, do we know whether the issues are caused by Nayak
128 Post contains links RedChili : The Norwegian daily VG has published some more statistics from DY's long-haul arrivals into OSL (i.e. only the arrivals from JFK and BKK, not departur
129 Post contains links LN-KGL : RedChili, you don't need to make it worse than what it is. The delay is the average delay of flights not on time. To set this in perspective, the on t
130 RedChili : That's pretty much what I wrote. I wrote "average delay," not "average arrival time." If only 13 percent of flights are delayed, it's not so much of
131 planewasted : I get the feeling that some people here think DY is a small airline from Norway, that Boeing don't care "that" much about. Which is very understandabl
132 Post contains links Navigator : According to this report today Norwegian takes both its Dreamliners out of service until Boeing can guarantee the reliability. http://www.expressen.se
133 PITingres : While I sympathize with this decision, I have to wonder how either party expects to guarantee the reliability of a plane that is not flying. (That is
134 Post contains links NAV20 : On present evidence, at any one time, up to 50 787s are flying in service, out of 83 delivered so far. With no evident problems? http://flighttracker
135 raffik : What do you think is causing these issues then if the aircraft isn't at fault? Some aircraft work fine, others not. Some aircraft operate day in day
136 KarelXWB : Customers normally don't cancel orders, they expect the manufacturer to fix the issues.
137 LN-KGL : The express.se article is based on an travelnews.se article and this travelnews.se article is based on Reuters articles. Somewhere along this line the
138 par13del : The crux of a lot of these threads, unfortunaley due to PC both post will probably be deleted.
139 BestWestern : The original Reuters article was riddled with mistakes also.
140 boeingbus : That would be very silly. Norwegian via the delays and early slots are getting the 787 at an awesome price PLUS the 787 is far superior in economics
141 Post contains links garynor : Despite the problems, Norwegian still remains faithful to Boeing and the 787 (article in Norwegian): http://e24.no/boers-og-finans/kjos-h...skal-ha-fl
142 Post contains links LondonCity : Not sure whether Norwegian will succeed long term on the Bangkok route. According to this article of last July, Norwegian was being undercut on price
143 tortugamon : I just received a tweet from a not-always-reliable source saying that Kjos also said that the 787 is "better on performance than anticipated, the fue
144 Post contains links garynor : That is actually also in the article I quoted, here's the Google translation: http://translate.google.com/translat..._t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=
145 cmf : The price doesn't matter when they don't work. Right now they are not providing superior economics. Right now they are causing a lot of additional co
146 NAV20 : Most likely an assembly stuff-up, raffik?
147 RussianJet : That doesn't change the fact that they're built and sold for a particular function, and should reasonably be expected to fulfil that function dependa
148 kanban : From what I heard Nayak is a very qualified and conscientious contractor. And there are no faults assigned to them. What I have difficulty documentin
149 zckls04 : Anyone who has worked supporting technical products will tell you that there always seem to be some customers who encounter disproportionately large
150 tortugamon : Thank you. Silver lining on a dark problem. tortugamon
151 Post contains images TheRedBaron : An aircraft than doesn't fly burns exactly 0 Fuel. TRB
152 KarelXWB : What he means is, the aircraft exceeds the performance as promised in the contract.
153 Post contains images tortugamon : You got me there! The guy is pot committed and needs to instill confidence from his shareholders so he needs to defray some negative messages with po
154 RedChili : Kanban, several posters have assumed that when DY signed up for the Gold Care, that they provided Boeing with their planned schedule, and Boeing sign
155 Mortyman : The 18 hours operation was approved and given an acceptance by Boeing.
156 Asiaflyer : Its a machine, not a person. It does not need to sleep, as sit in a parking stand for certain hours per day. As long as maintenance is perfectly perf
157 Navigator : Sure enough but technical line maintenance is outsourced to Boeing!! And I dont think you can call one of europes largest airlines incompetent. And t
158 NAV20 : Something odd is happening - lots of press stories about Norwegian grounding its 787s, but according to Boeing's 787 Flight Tracker one of them is hal
159 RedChili : They've grounded one 787, EI-LNB, which had multiple problems. The other, LNA, is still flying.
160 FlyingAY : But is that so much for a LH plane in the end? AY uses their A340s and A330s a lot as well - they fly the plane HEL-Asia turn it around and fly it ba
161 bx737 : Eighteen hours is only one long haul round trip, that is not excessive scheduling.The 787 is allegedly a long haul aircraft so a OSL-JFK should not ta
162 LN-KGL : NAV20, you need to check my reply above (# 137). EI-LNA is right now flying DY7002 and expected to land 10 minutes before time at OSL. November Alpha
163 Post contains images NAV20 : Thanks for the clarifications, RedChili, LN-KGL.
164 mjoelnir : It seems you can not distinguish between average use and use on the day there are used. ARN-BKK is about 10 hours, that makes it 20 hours 3 days in t
165 RedChili : You're working with the wrong numbers. Here are the correct numbers, taken from Norwegian.se: ARN-BKK 10:10 BKK-ARN 11:15 ARN-JFK 8:25 JFK-ARN 7:45 T
166 mjoelnir : You want to tell me that this are real numbers? Or are this numbers block time numbers, taking in account also the slower flying A 340 and taking in
167 anfromme : I think both are valid metrics, to be honest - average utilisation taking rest days into account, as well as average utilisation on days with flights
168 okAY : Most propably there will be some type specific and operator specific problems that AY will prepare themselves for. Just as they experienced with E-je
169 kanban : After long dissertations on the nature of the contract, I guess I need to repeat Gold Care as a management tool. They do no work on the planes. Norwe
170 mjoelnir : I thing you are tap dancing around the issue. It may be that the only thing Boeing is doing is managing the service for DY. But the question is IMO w
171 Mortyman : Boeing is well aware of Norwegian's business model and their needs. The manufacturar has no good excuse for recomending and selling a product that is
172 okAY : Size has no correlation to competence.
173 zckls04 : Well it's certainly a factor. You don't become large without a certain degree of competence. That's not the same as infallibility. As others have sai
174 tortugamon : DY did not buy these aircraft. They are leased from ILFC. ILFC bought them in 2005 when the list price was ~$120 Million before discounts. These earl
175 kanban : The detail you seek is contractual and confidential.. I can do my best to explain the processes, but if you want the contract detail go talk to the a
176 blrsea : I think the question many people are asking is, is a customer buying LN 100+ and two years after EIS of the type considered an "early customer"? Rega
177 okAY : It might be a factor, but no "=" should be put in between. The bigger you get, the bigger the risks and the better understanding of your business you
178 kanban : Historically speaking there have been worse introductions of new models.. What is different is the instant media and all the "experts"..
179 TheRedBaron : I agree, that media exposure and instant communications pose a PR problem from small glitches that in bygone days would not even register. We now hav
180 cmf : Fail to see how the customer decide to finance is relevant. Discount for dealing with early problems certainly is valid but it doesn't mean any amoun
181 KarelXWB : It doesn't matter if you have paid $50, $100 or $200 million, the plane has to meet the performance and reliability numbers as promised in the contrac
182 ikramerica : Exactly. This is very high utilization. You have turn time at both ends of 2 hours minimum for long-haul flights. There is no room for error. It's a
183 KarelXWB : I'm not sure if I would call it ridiculous, but IMO it was very naive from DY management to expect everything would work smoothly. Everyone knows a n
184 LN-KGL : It is interesting that Kayak is getting a lot of stick here as long as they only doing the maintenance at only one of the four destinations and that i
185 tortugamon : The comment to which I was responding made it out to be a $200 million aircraft when in fact it was a lot less. Its relevant because cheaper/early ai
186 LN-KGL : ikramerica, why does Boeing in their "787 Airplane Charcteristics for Airport Planning" specify a turnaround time of 41 minutes for a 787 with 274 pas
187 ikramerica : I assume that's a regional route with no cargo, and without any required checks during that turn. It wouldn't be legal to turn a 787 in that time at
188 sankaps : So you're saying this is just BS from Boeing? Doesn't really help their case, does it?
189 RedChili : These are the numbers given when you book through Norwegian's own web site on the 787. Naturally, they're block numbers, which is the same as utiliza
190 Post contains links RedChili : One reason why I'm so critical of DY is a series of strange quotes that I read from their CEO and others in the company before they started their lon
191 kanban : please remember that some issue can not be identified when the plane if late emerging form the FAL , or grounded for battery problems.. Some things s
192 LN-KGL : So airlines are not allowed to speculate in what destinations they may fly to in the future RedChili? As I recall it a neighbouring airline said for y
193 Post contains links factsonly : May I humbly suggest you spent a little time studying Air Asia and all the various national identities this airline operates to meet bilateral requir
194 Post contains links CALTECH : Boeing is accepting and admitting responsibility for the 787 teething troubles, http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....l/avd_10_02_2013_p01-02-622707.
195 kanban : As they have all along, and as any company resolving customer problems would.. I would not read "great capitulation to A.net wisdom" in the article
196 mjoelnir : ts in the four places DY is flying from But it does not fit your version that Boeing's only responsibility regarding the service for DY's B 787 is man
197 sankaps : Well stated, my thoughts exactly.
198 kanban : Oh come off it.. have you ever called a customer service agent or a supplier representative with a complaint where they didn't profusely apologize ev
199 Post contains images PW100 : No evident problems? Harsh statement . . . how many of those are delayed more than say 60 minutes, at any one time . . . .
200 Post contains images sweair : Problems will be solved and mjoelnir will have to find a new area to excel at? We are lucky to have such experts here
201 LJ : Moreover, some aviation treaties will be EU/EEA wide thus any EU/EEA airline can start flights between a foreign country and any EU/EEA country. As f
202 anfromme : Yes, I have. On both the receiving and the giving end. Personally, I actually prefer suppliers that don't send a ton of "Oh, we're so sorry" down my
203 RedChili : Sure, but when several executives and/or spokespeople of a new long-haul airline go public and state that they are going to start flights between des
204 Post contains links mham001 : I am shocked this was not picked up here..... The airline’s chief executive Bjorn Kjos said the 787 was a better aircraft than advertised but Boeing
205 KarelXWB : It was, check the previous thread.
206 vfw614 : ...not for some knackered Airbus A340-300s that did the job before the 787s were delivered. There were some issues with them as well, but they did mu
207 BestWestern : Are all 787s flying again, or is one still in maintenance?
208 okAY : Mostly too tight schedule will hit you back in case of irregularities in operations, ie. flight is delayed for any of the various possible reasons, t
209 vfw614 : Which then leaves the question why Boeing sold its Gold programme to DY if the schedule was prone to maintenance disaster. Common sense dictates that
210 hkcanadaexpat : EI-LNB still not flying. I believe the A340 lease is until October 11th after which EI-LNB will resume service. A
211 LN-KGL : The lemon (EI-LNB) is still being sweetened, but rumours has it the aircraft will start to fly again coming Saturday (12th). The problem is more, the
212 Post contains images cmf : Recovery time. Whenever something happens you need time to deal with it. If you have every connection scheduled tight then it is very difficult to do
213 kanban : the other question is what part of the pump "broke".. a housing failure, impeller, bearing, an "O-ring"?.. all have different service lives. Was it a
214 ikramerica : No, you are just quoting a regional out station turn time (little cargo and no required checks/maintenance other than preflight walk around) and impl
215 sankaps : Actually I am quoting LN-KGL, who is quoting Boeing. I don't think Norwegian is scheduling its 787s to turn in 41 minutes at their home base (or anyw
216 mjoelnir : Every time you start hinting that the problem is DY or DY's service or that DY does not have the right spare parts on stock. DY contracted Boeing for
217 RedChili : It sound rather far-fetched, I agree about that, but it's common knowledge in the airline industry that new airplanes have a lot of irritating proble
218 kanban : In no way do I suggest the failure was the carrier's.. I suggest that there are multiple components in a hydraulic pump.. and filters, bearings, O-ri
219 sankaps : Sure, but these should have been ironed out by this time. I doubt Norwegian got launch airline discounts given they are receiving line numbers 100+.
220 TristarSteve : Lot of learned talk here about hydraulic pump failures, but does anyone know if the pump failed? Back in mid August we had a status message C2 HYD PUM
221 kanban : As I have said before, many items do not surface when the fleet is grounded or when there is a delay in certifying.. some things just take flying and
222 bjorn14 : It must be those darn VA pilots causing all the trouble!
223 LN-KGL : To clear away the claim and guesswork about tight turnarounds - during one week the DY 787 is scheduled to stay on ground at OSL for 3 x 2 h 5 min (we
224 okAY : Such a schedule with only a few frames divided between two bases does not leave a lot of space to move in case of disturbance. it is like joggling wi
225 CX747 : Right now, it seems that the 787 for both Boeing and Norwegian is a problem. One can get very caught up in the HERE and NOW and forget about TOMORROW.
226 FlyingAY : Since you probably know, I'd like to ask you - doesn't AY have pretty much similar utilization for their A330/A340 fleet?
227 kanban : I'm having trouble seeing that the issues occurring currently (other than the wiring and filter issues) could have been caught with anything less tha
228 okAY : First of all AY has only one home base. This makes it easier to find a replacement aircraft. Utilization-wise I do not have detailed information how
229 mjoelnir : I do not thing you get it; There is no excuse for an OEM to sell a defective product. When the product you are producing breaks down in the first few
230 sankaps : Aren't wiring and filter issues bad enough on their own?
231 cmf : There is theory and there is reality. When you have a product consisting of this many items reality is that some of them will always have issues. Any
232 ferpe : I agree, everyone who delivers complex product (and a modern aircraft is a mega complex product) knows that there is the famous bath tube curve. Thin
233 Post contains images NAV20 : Agree entirely, cmf. Can't access any details, but it looks as if Norwegian's problems have mainly occurred with one of their two 787s, not both of t
234 mjoelnir : I do not say that new complex products never break, but I am tiered hearing about "teething problems" on an airplane that is LN 112 of its type. I am
235 JHwk : We had a problem with a diesel generator like that; the fuel pump was what actually failed, but the damage always appeared in other parts first. Went
236 sankaps : Agreed, that has just compounded the risks inherent in an aircraft with so much new technology, materials, supplier management, and manufacturing pro
237 mjoelnir : will we get now a list of dismal failures of OEMs around the globe and say it is okay because others have failed too?. Were you satisfied with the re
238 Post contains images flood : UA may want a handful of those free aeroplanes too while you're at it . Indeed, but there may be a sign something's wrong when the manufacturer's CEO
239 ikramerica : Recipe for disaster. Without spares delays will cascade. Not just mechanical but weather and traffic at JFK.
240 sankaps : Apparently the recipe for disaster did not impact the leased and aging A340s flying this schedule.
241 okAY : 90 mins at JFK can work, if everything runs smoothly. Also, it is an outstation turnaround where, in case of no tech problem, the turnaround can be c
242 RedChili : I suggest you read my reply 128 above. I can give you a summary: Between June-August, when A340s were operating these routes, 52 out of 72 arrivals i
243 RedChili : I just checked the Oneworld PDF timetable. According to that timetable, for next week, AY's 330s are flying a total of 860 hours and 35 minutes. Thei
244 cmf : No idea why you comment on the part of my paragraph you didn't quote. My comment was on the statement that there should not be any problems in the fi
245 sankaps : Do you have any data on average delay and how many cancellations there were? That would provide a much clearer picture. After all it is the A340 stil
246 mjoelnir : What do we talk about here on this thread? The HIGH number of problems on the B 787 at DY. If there would have been a few problems, this thread would
247 BestWestern : Again, the A340 flies slower, and takes longer to turn than the 787 - so when you sub onto the 787 sechedule, the A340 will be late.
248 ikramerica : I'm not dismissing the 787 here. It has problems. DY KNOWS it has problems and has known it. The A343 is a mature aircraft, flying for 20 years in co
249 cmf : The problem is that you stated there can't be any breakdowns in the first weeks. An unrealistic expectation.
250 mjoelnir : I think we have here again a problem of semantics, what kind sir do you understand when one talks about a breakdown? In my understanding if my car th
251 cmf : It is OK having to call a tow truck in the first weeks. It isn't OK having to call it every other day.
252 TheRedBaron : Norwegian: Bought a new airplane for a very ambitious expansion. They put themselves in a corner if the Aircraft had any kind of problems. They have h
253 lightsaber : I didn't realize, before this thread, that DY bought gold care. That basically means that the aircraft (excluding insurable incidents) is Boeing's re
254 kanban : just to clarify.. they may be line number 101 and 102, but there were only about 85 deliveries at that point.. Please go back and read my posts on Go
255 RedChili : Data on average delay was in my original post. I think there has been only one cancellation so far. IIRC, the 340 was subbed several weeks in advance
256 Speedbird128 : Why, Lightsaber? What will it change? The number of "teething" issues? 6 years (maybe even before that) ago it was billed to be a game changer, and n
257 BestWestern : And one carrier has experience flying the route and the other is new, and padding its 787 performance stats. We all know the 340 is a slow aircraft an
258 sweair : The 787 will be a very popular aircraft with time, it really is a big step forward in aviation systems, maybe it was a step too far to replace so many
259 cmf : Depends on the parts required. It is unrealistic to have every part at every location. I remember you posting about how you have chartered planes or
260 LN-KGL : For those interested, DY7002 JFK-OSL with EI-LNA landed 4 minutes early today. Not that this is unusual for Norwegian, all other DY arrivals to OSL ha
261 Speedbird128 : Not "gleeing" at all from my side. Several major aviation projects have gone horribly wrong in the last decade, and I hope that the new up and coming
262 mjoelnir : The point for me is that when you introduce a new product you should start of with overstocking spare parts. Than when the numbers of frames increase
263 Post contains links NAV20 : Yes, that's not unusual - in fact it has been flying Oslo-Kennedy and return, without incident, for at least the past month............. As it happen
264 Post contains images sweair : It is a wise move to go the slow route with a new product, like BA seems to do. It is a very different beast to current aircraft and support is not th
265 mjoelnir : DY did put the first B 787 first on short haul flights in Europe. Still doing the airline bashing for a problem that is in the responsibility of the
266 mjoelnir : If it will take another few years for Boeing to get the reliability problems for the B 787s fixed, I would be both astonished and dismayed. If the re
267 JHwk : And the problem with that is your stock of parts from other suppliers will become obsolete well before 10% of the units are placed in service. As an
268 Post contains images cmf : If you have the money, time and production capacity go ahead and do so. I have not seen a single case where it was acceptable. As great as it sounds
269 mjoelnir : The overstocking of spare parts is normal for us every time a new product is introduced. We have the parts on stock before the first machine arrives
270 Post contains images cmf : Then you are different from all the different companies I have worked with. It is not that you don't make any spare parts, you certainly do if there
271 TheRedBaron : Thanks ! I stand corrected. Agreed, and also Boeing cornered itself with service at a far away location with a very ambitious operator. Thanks for th
272 bx737 : The discussion still seems to be whether the airline was right or not to start off by introducing a long haul aircraft initially on short haul service
273 mjoelnir : I think you read only the word and not what I am saying, I will call it something different. While introducing a product you have high stocks of spar
274 cmf : You're making the mistake of treating all spare items the same. What you're describing is something you do for some items. Typically items that are n
275 Post contains links iowaman : Part two is getting filled up, here is part three: Norwegian Has Had Enough Of Dreamliner Nightmare 3 (by iowaman Oct 9 2013 in Civil Aviation)
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