Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Joe Brancatelli Lights Into United Management  
User currently offlinetoxtethogrady From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1289 posts, RR: 0
Posted (11 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 10783 times:

"delusional hubris"

http://www.bizjournals.com/houston/n...sues-threaten-united-campaign.html

"...You also run into that attitude whenever you speak to United's C-suite executives. Tell them about the airline's operational problems and they blame the exigencies of a difficult merger. Talk about the decidedly unfriendly attitude of some of United's customer-facing personnel and you are told that they are being retrained. Detail United's failure to satisfy its most loyal, most profitable fliers and you are told that too many elite United MileagePlus customers were "over-entitled." United chief executive Jeff Smisek boasts about saving a few dollars by serving split cashews rather than whole nuts. And I was dismissed by a top United executive as I was explaining the airline's weaknesses from the business traveler's point of view with a curt, "I can't listen to any more of this. It's depressing..."

Somebody better get rid of Smisek quick. And see if Bethune is still available to run the airline.

97 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineairzim From Zimbabwe, joined Jun 2001, 1205 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (11 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 10744 times:

The author has no credibility with anyone who matters in aviation.

If he decides to discuss facts versus innuendo and FT whining, then maybe someone will listen. Until then, he's just a disgruntled frequent flier who mad who can't accept the fact that the aviation business is changing, and it's happening at all carriers one way or the other.


User currently offlinepeanuts From Netherlands, joined Dec 2009, 1438 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (11 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 10535 times:

Didn't we do this last week already?

Listen, reviving a slogan that worked for its time is just not very clever. Times have changed and considering how fast negative news travels nowadays this slogan will haunt UA like a giant turd they will just keep stepping in.

Perception and reality are far apart here.



Question Conventional Wisdom. While not all commonly held beliefs are wrong…all should be questioned.
User currently offlinephxa340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 886 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (11 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 10323 times:

Really ? I'm a diehard DL fan but have flown UA 4 times in the last month and their service was impeccable. Agents and attendants were great and flights were on time. The reconfigured PS bird I flew on looked brand new as well. I personally think Smisek is doing a great job.

User currently offlineUALFAson From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 721 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (11 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 10182 times:

Joe Brancatelli is pi$$ed off about something?!? And complaining about United?!? Shut the front door! That hasn't happened since...I don't know...5 minutes ago?

Seriously, this guy is a joke and I can't even stand to read his columns anymore. He's the definition of a self-entitled bitter old man. If I were the United executive, I would say whatever it took to "dismiss" him as well just to get him out of my office or off my phone.



"We hope you've enjoyed flying with us as much as we've enjoyed taking you for a ride."
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17442 posts, RR: 46
Reply 5, posted (11 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 10125 times:

I don't know who these people are flying. They're confusing airlines for North Korean gulags. I can barely remember my last terrible airline experience, and it was years ago and it was SU. People need to realign their expectations--the cost, safety, and convenience is lightyears ahead of what it was even a decade or two ago, but UGH HALF CASHEWS???? EVERYTHING IS RUINED. KILL EVERYONE  .

Quoting toxtethogrady (Thread starter):
you are told that too many elite United MileagePlus customers were "over-entitled."

It was a mistake to explicitly *say* that but every airline has told its fliers EXACTLY that by their actions, including the beloved never-can-do-wrong WN recently.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinecodc10 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2406 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (11 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 9710 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 5):
It was a mistake to explicitly *say* that

Especially considering the fact that all indications are that Rainey was referring to the 25K tier, which, prior to the merger, probably did accrue benefits that were not, taken as a whole, in line with their value to the carrier.

As for Brancatelli, this is par for the course. I don't dislike him, but in the travel blogosphere (an increasingly crowded space) his act is less relevant now than it was 10-15 years ago.


User currently offlinenutsaboutplanes From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 496 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (11 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 9667 times:

I am not a UAL fan but this article is garbage. UA continues to make progress and while they are a few steps behind Delta in my opinion, you can not deny the progress that the company is making.


American Airlines, US Airways, Alaska Airlines, Northwest Airlines, America West Airlines, USAFR
User currently onlineSooner787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2013, 226 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (11 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 9635 times:

We book UA more than any other airline in out travel office
and we're getting great feedback from our clients about UA's
improved serivce. I flew UA back in Aug , connected thru SFO
and both flights were great and the cabin crew was especially
friendly.

The months following the merger were a mess but it seems
like UA has turned the corner.


User currently offlinewashingtonflyer From Bouvet Island, joined Sep 2013, 496 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (11 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 9333 times:

Wonder how many UA VFFs left for AA when AA offered to match Ex-Plat status to United's 1Ks earlier this year.

User currently offlinerscaife1682 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 332 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (11 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 9154 times:

Quoting washingtonflyer (Reply 12):
Wonder how many UA VFFs left for AA when AA offered to match Ex-Plat status to United's 1Ks earlier this year.

This guy right here   also had Delta somewhat match my 1K as they only put me on Platinum. I have been flying Delta alot this year and find them much better than United. Better looking cabins, well dressed FA's, Wifi on every flight I have been on, 60% of flight have free live TV and no bull**** upgrade whereas since the merger as a 1K at UAL my upgrades were almost never happening,

I will say that my friend who did not make the jump says that UAL is way better but still has a long way to go.


User currently offlinetoxtethogrady From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1289 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (11 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 9045 times:

Quoting washingtonflyer (Reply 12):
Wonder how many UA VFFs left for AA

United told its Beaumont-Port Arthur customers to take a bus. They chose to take American instead.


User currently offlinecaetravlr From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 908 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (11 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 8924 times:

I will say, of the two times that I have flown UA this year, there were serious delays on both trips. Nothing unusual, and not unexpected. What actually IMPRESSED me was how easily and quickly they were able to rebook my fiance and I on different flights that were better than sitting at the airport waiting on our originally scheduled flights to depart. Maybe I had something akin to status because of my Chase Mileageplus card, I don't know? But I was very impressed at how helpful they were.

I will also say, last time I flew DL, I was very impressed with them, but it's been over a year. I think both airlines are improving.



A woman drove me to drink and I didn't have the decency to thank her. - W.C. Fields
User currently offlineairzim From Zimbabwe, joined Jun 2001, 1205 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (11 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 8675 times:

Quoting toxtethogrady (Reply 14):
United told its Beaumont-Port Arthur customers to take a bus. They chose to take American instead.

I would love to know how many VVF lived in Beaumont? Well I bet at least one will raise his hand!

If Beaumont was an hours drive from Dallas, I'm sure American would put you on a bus too.

Rebuttals like this make me laugh given their self serving rant.


User currently offlinetraindoc From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 353 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (11 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 8485 times:

As a 1K and Million Miler, let me offer my experience. Last year, UA's service certainly suffered due to merger glitches. My wife and I certainly experienced that. This year between the two of us we have already flown close to 175,000 miles, flying with crews and planes from both sides of the merger. Indeed service is improving, especially on the former UA side.

The only unpleasant flight this year was in J from ORD to FRA last month. The service was OK, but the FAs were just not that friendly. Was that bad service? No. Was it good service? No, as well. So just one flight out of dozens that was not what it should be. So I concur with the others who recognize that UA is making progress.

Indeed, even if the United C suite did diss Joe, that does not mean that the whole airline is bad. If you have a chip on your shoulder and negative expectations, you may well get what you expect.


User currently offlineMSPNWA From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1936 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (11 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 8344 times:

In my opinion, UA's biggest problem is its customers. They expect more than a current-day airline can profitably deliver.

User currently onlineAVENSAB727 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 926 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (11 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 8264 times:

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 23):

Yeah, there are always those, I have a feeling that people are asking for too much out of UA.



Always look on the bright side of Life!
User currently offlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4457 posts, RR: 19
Reply 17, posted (11 months 6 days ago) and read 6841 times:

Quoting peanuts (Reply 2):
Didn't we do this last week already?

Listen, reviving a slogan that worked for its time is just not very clever. Times have changed and considering how fast negative news travels nowadays this slogan will haunt UA like a giant turd they will just keep stepping in.

Perception and reality are far apart here.

Well said.



The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
User currently offlinejman40 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 58 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (11 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 6054 times:

Quoting airzim (Reply 13):
If Beaumont was an hours drive from Dallas, I'm sure American would put you on a bus too.

Rebuttals like this make me laugh given their self serving rant.

I'm not demonizing UA for making the business decision to cut BPT nor praising AA, but:

BPT-IAH by car: 103 miles
SPS-DFW by car: 120 miles

Not much difference. AA runs SPS-DFW 4x daily. Again, AA chooses to stay in SPS, UA decided to leave BPT. Both airlines make that choice based largely on profit and efficiency. But please don't state that choosing to fly (and saying so on an aviation board) a competitor rather than drive or bus to a hub is "a self serving rant" when similar situations exist on different routes served by different airlines.

Fly SPS-DFW and then points beyond if I have the choice and money is reasonable? Yes, please. Fly BPT-DFW and onward? Of course. Drive in Houston traffic because UA made the choice to cut service? No, thanks. Self serving? Sure. In that I'd rather fly than drive. But not a rant. UA made a choice. Customers make choices.

JMan


User currently offlineAA777223 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1245 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (11 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 5126 times:

I read this in both the Houston and Dallas business journals yesterday, and was surprised. This editorial is obviously slanted, and doesn't really represent any sort of journalistic integrity. Using it as a top story further lowers my opinion of these publications.


Sic 'em bears
User currently offlineCALTECH From Poland, joined May 2007, 2221 posts, RR: 26
Reply 20, posted (11 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 5091 times:

Looking at Joe Brancatelli's picture, thought his profile as tommy767 showed him as a much younger person.


UNITED We Stand
User currently offlineawacsooner From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 1902 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (11 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 5041 times:

Quoting jman40 (Reply 18):

I'm not demonizing UA for making the business decision to cut BPT nor praising AA, but:

BPT-IAH by car: 103 miles
SPS-DFW by car: 120 miles

Which one has a lot of military traffic that rakes in govt contracts and which one doesn't? There's the reason why AA still flies that route.


User currently offlineairzim From Zimbabwe, joined Jun 2001, 1205 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (11 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 4997 times:

Quoting jman40 (Reply 18):
I'm not demonizing UA for making the business decision to cut BPT nor praising AA, but:

BPT-IAH by car: 103 miles
SPS-DFW by car: 120 miles

Not much difference. AA runs SPS-DFW 4x daily. Again, AA chooses to stay in SPS, UA decided to leave BPT. Both airlines make that choice based largely on profit and efficiency. But please don't state that choosing to fly (and saying so on an aviation board) a competitor rather than drive or bus to a hub is "a self serving rant" when similar situations exist on different routes served by different airlines.

Fly SPS-DFW and then points beyond if I have the choice and money is reasonable? Yes, please. Fly BPT-DFW and onward? Of course. Drive in Houston traffic because UA made the choice to cut service? No, thanks. Self serving? Sure. In that I'd rather fly than drive. But not a rant. UA made a choice. Customers make choices.

There's no parallel, except distance apart from a major hub. Totally different traffic dynamics.

The self serving part was whining that the sky is falling because United made a business decision to discontinue a route and the poster takes personally. So the discontinuing one route somehow points to a larger endemic issue with United. Which any logical person knows is baloney.


User currently offlineexFWAOONW From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 404 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (11 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 5000 times:

You may say "it's ONLY 120 miles", but it may take 4 hours start to stop when you factor urban traffic around airports. Is your loyalty worth 6 hours of your life every trip? (4hr drive each way minus 1hr flight each way)


Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?
User currently offlineJAAlbert From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1583 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (11 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 4985 times:

Just to add anectodal information to the discussion (which likely is not relevant to assessing the airline as a whole) I flew SFO to BOS at the height of the merger issues. The computers (allegedly) had actually issued several of us passengers tickets for the same seat on a flight that was virtually sold out - of those left standing was a first class passenger who told me he had actually paid for his ticket (not an upgrade). About ten to fifteen of us were left standing in the aisles for close to an hour while the gate agents tried to figure what to do. The situation was a nightmare, but I have to say the gate agents and flight attendants could not have been more apologetic and kind. They were as upset as the rest of us.

We all finally managed to get seats - the first class guy - ended up in the back row of the plane (yikes!). I don't know about the others, but UAL gave me a nice discount coupon for future travel and the flight attendants plied me with free drinks and box lunches during the flight.

That merger was a mess - but the employees impressed me with their empathy and attitudes.


User currently offlinewashingtonflyer From Bouvet Island, joined Sep 2013, 496 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (11 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 5158 times:

Gotta remember, VFFs often love small airports for a lot of reasons:

1) quicker check-in and processing.
2) reduced or free parking
3) extra segment and miles credit - 1 extra segment and 500 extra miles
4) advanced jump on upgrades and seat assignments - often done by checkin time (T-24)

This won't make much sense to the airline employees, but its part of the "game" for frequent fliers.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22923 posts, RR: 20
Reply 26, posted (11 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 5168 times:

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 15):
In my opinion, UA's biggest problem is its customers. They expect more than a current-day airline can profitably deliver.

I disagree. There are key areas where UA is quite a ways behind the competition, especially DL. Here are a couple:

1) Airport facilities. The experiences for passengers, especially the many who must take regional flights, at IAD, ORD, IAH and EWR is quite poor. The only DL hubs whose facilities are even arguably as bad as these are JFK (which has improved) and SLC.

2) Overuse of 50 seat aircraft. Here's what my city sees to each legacy carriers' largest hub:

UA (IAH): All 50 seaters, with the occasional exception of a lone 70 seater
AA (DFW): All mainline
DL (ATL): Nearly all mainline, occasional single CR7 or CR9 frequencies
US (CLT): Mix of mainline, E75 and CR9. Majority mainline in most schedules.

There are gobs of other cities like this. In contrast to DL, AFAIK UA has articulated no plan to reduce its reliance on 50-seaters.

3) IT infrastructure. Someone mentioned that they were impressed with their interaction with staff during IROPS. On DL, it is rarely necessary to interact with staff during IROPS. The app or a kiosk presents alternate options, you click on what you want and away you go. It's phenomenal.

There are good people working for UA; we had a m/x diversion and bus trip yesterday that was handled extremely well by all of the folks with whom I interacted. At the same time, to pretend that UA is right there with the other legacies is foolish, IMO.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinetoxtethogrady From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1289 posts, RR: 0
Reply 27, posted (11 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 5211 times:

Quoting traindoc (Reply 14):
If Beaumont was an hours drive from Dallas, I'm sure American would put you on a bus too.

Waco's less than an hour from DFW, and they fly jets in there.

Bottom line is that Smisek is so focused on splitting the cashews that he's forgotten why Robert Crandall went to a hub and spoke operation at American back in the '80s. And this morning brings word that all the airline stocks are down because United has lowered their guidance on revenues. Something is wrong, and management is looking at the wrong end of the horse for the solution.


User currently offlinejman40 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 58 posts, RR: 0
Reply 28, posted (11 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 5208 times:

Quoting airzim (Reply 22):
The self serving part was whining that the sky is falling because United made a business decision to discontinue a route and the poster takes personally. So the discontinuing one route somehow points to a larger endemic issue with United. Which any logical person knows is baloney.

Okay.

My main problem is you insulting people. Nobody whined, nobody said the sky is falling. The person person said UA bailed on the route, and thus changed airlines. You said the statement is laughable and the poster is ranting. You made the decision to lash out, which is a very annoying attribute of far too many people on this board and the internet as a whole. I called you on it, and the insults continue.

Jman


User currently offlinetoxtethogrady From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1289 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (11 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 5170 times:

"In my opinion, UA's biggest problem is its customers. They expect more than a current-day airline can profitably deliver."

If Costco conducted their business with an attitude like that, they'd be out of business so fast it would make your head spin.

The failure of 'profitably' is a result of United (and every other carrier) being unable to control the price of fuel. Profitability is easier to achieve when fuel reflects supply-and-demand (around $1.50 a gallon). Delta has at least bought itself a refinery; it would be interesting to see how that experiment is going. United has its largest operation in a town filled with oil company executives; their inability to strike a quid-pro-quo deal with any of them probably explains why they're saddled with a cost structure that casues them to struggle with profitability.


User currently onlineAVENSAB727 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 926 posts, RR: 1
Reply 30, posted (11 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 5142 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 26):

Well, things have gotten a better at IAH with the rebuilt Terminal B South. But the others do need work.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 26):

UA does need to go a bit more mainline, I think there are a bit too many 50 seaters.



Always look on the bright side of Life!
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22923 posts, RR: 20
Reply 31, posted (11 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 5124 times:

Quoting AVENSAB727 (Reply 30):
Well, things have gotten a better at IAH with the rebuilt Terminal B South. But the others do need work.

I agree with that, but if you contrast that with the improvements that DL has made at nearly all of its hubs with issues (massive JFK consolidation, LGA connection of terminals, various ATL improvements, CVG consolidation), it's not really analogous.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinetoxtethogrady From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1289 posts, RR: 0
Reply 32, posted (11 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 5107 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 26):
There are gobs of other cities like this. In contrast to DL, AFAIK UA has articulated no plan to reduce its reliance on 50-seaters.

They made an investment decision many years ago to ramp up the 50-seaters to move into new markets that weren't ready for the 737's. At the time they owned the airplanes and had all the pilots on staff.

Then Smisek encouraged them to spin the 50-seaters off into a contract airline as a means of saving on labor costs, then started using the 50-seaters even on routes that were more heavily traveled than the jet could accommodate, e.g. Houston to Charlotte, Newark to Toronto. There were two strategies at work - cut labor costs by using lower-paid flight crews and boost revenues by starving certain markets of available seats. For some reason, it doesn't seem to be working; every time I've had the chance to check the metrics, United has the highest cost per available seat mile of all the carriers flying domestically in the United States, and the revenues earned by the regionals don't appear to be covering the contract costs. Smisek knows how to shave costs by splitting the nuts; he has absolutely no clue how to market his airline to the customers.


User currently offlineRDH3E From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 1659 posts, RR: 3
Reply 33, posted (11 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 5071 times:

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 20):
Looking at Joe Brancatelli's picture, thought his profile as tommy767 showed him as a much younger person.

Virtual High-Five to you.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 26):
There are gobs of other cities like this. In contrast to DL, AFAIK UA has articulated no plan to reduce its reliance on 50-seaters.

They are loading up on 76-seat aircraft, and it has been said publicly they would like to retire the 50s as quickly as possible. However, there will still be about 300 or so due to the cap on the number of 70+ seat aircraft in the pilot contract.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 26):
The app or a kiosk presents alternate options, you click on what you want and away you go. It's phenomenal.

UA has auto-rebook and all that too, but customers have to be re-trained to use it. PMUA had that as well, but it went away with the SHARES cutover because CO was so far behind the times in this regard. However, it has been back in action since last year I believe.


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17442 posts, RR: 46
Reply 34, posted (11 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 5058 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 32):
I agree with that, but if you contrast that with the improvements that DL has made at nearly all of its hubs with issues (massive JFK consolidation, LGA connection of terminals, various ATL improvements, CVG consolidation), it's not really analogous.

UA doesn't need to rearrange its hubs and find new ones--its main (only?) strength is its unparalleled network.

Quoting toxtethogrady (Reply 33):
Then Smisek encouraged them to spin the 50-seaters off into a contract airline as a means of saving on labor costs,

It's a little more complicated than that. UA just replaced its 737s with CR7s with zero narrowbodies on order. CO had a much tighter scope, but a significant number of 737s continuing to come on property. At the same time the economics of the industry meant owning your regional provider wasn't cost effective (see Eagle today), particularly as fuel was spiking and the economy was tanking. Post merger, there are still lots of narrowbodies on order, and with a combined pilot contract they can finally realign the RJ fleet, which they are doing. Neither entity separately had that option before, between UA's empty order book and CO's tight scope.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinewashingtonflyer From Bouvet Island, joined Sep 2013, 496 posts, RR: 0
Reply 35, posted (11 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 5063 times:

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 34):
They are loading up on 76-seat aircraft, and it has been said publicly they would like to retire the 50s as quickly as possible. However, there will still be about 300 or so due to the cap on the number of 70+ seat aircraft in the pilot contract.

I was amazed at the number of Q400s I saw at EWR yesterday. Didnt see a CRJ200 in sight. Q400s, Q300s (of which Commutair flies about 5 or 6 for UA), and some E-170/175s.

So many turboprops, that it reminded me of the times when I used to fly through RDU back in the early 1990s - just much bigger turboprops.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22923 posts, RR: 20
Reply 36, posted (11 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 5024 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 35):
UA doesn't need to rearrange its hubs and find new ones--its main (only?) strength is its unparalleled network.

I was referring to facilities, an area where UA is far behind the curve.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17442 posts, RR: 46
Reply 37, posted (11 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 5027 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 37):
I was referring to facilities, an area where UA is far behind the curve.

Other than the sUA lounges, and all the lounges are being refreshed, I'm not sure what it needs to fix? IAH/EWR/ORD/DEN all have relatively new/competitive facilities. There really is no JFK T3 in the UA network.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22923 posts, RR: 20
Reply 38, posted (11 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 5008 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 38):
I'm not sure what it needs to fix? IAH/EWR/ORD/DEN all have relatively new/competitive facilities.

IAH Terminal B needs fixing (frankly, the south complex isn't much better than the banjos). The A trailers, which are allegedly temporary but have been there for years, need to go too.

ORD Terminal 2 is awful.

The split operation at EWR is sub-optimal.

IAD is disgusting.

Should I go on?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17442 posts, RR: 46
Reply 39, posted (11 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 4964 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 39):
IAH Terminal B needs fixing (frankly, the south complex isn't much better than the banjos). The A trailers, which are allegedly temporary but have been there for years, need to go too.

ORD Terminal 2 is awful.

The split operation at EWR is sub-optimal.

IAD is disgusting.

I wouldn't say any of them are much different from most of ATL, SLC, MSP, and certainly better than LGA. The new concourse extension at JFK wouldn't look out of place at IAD, and the busing operation between DL JFK terminals is not much different from EWR either. UA is behind the curve on a lot of things. Facilities isn't one of them.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinewashingtonflyer From Bouvet Island, joined Sep 2013, 496 posts, RR: 0
Reply 40, posted (11 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4937 times:

How about the bus situation at EWR or SFO?

User currently offlineRDH3E From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 1659 posts, RR: 3
Reply 41, posted (11 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4909 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 39):
ORD Terminal 2 is awful.

You mean t-2 where they share the facility with like 10 other airlines? Where they just put in a brand new club (which is awesome by the way)?


User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6606 posts, RR: 24
Reply 42, posted (11 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4912 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 35):
UA doesn't need to rearrange its hubs and find new ones--its main (only?) strength is its unparalleled network.

It may be "unparalleled", but it's still quite weak when it relies so heavily on RJ's. Even decent sized metros with 1-4 million people see very little mainline from UA. Places like BNA, BDL, STL, MCI have almost no mainline service. I don't expect UA to fly mainline to smaller markets like PNS (though DL and WN/FL do), but relying so heavily on RJ's in relatively large markets is a fundamental weakness.

And despite UA's recent orders for 76 seaters, it's not nearly enough. UA will be way behind DL for the forseeable future. UA's domestic fleet strategy is a major weakness.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 40):
The new concourse extension at JFK wouldn't look out of place at IAD, and the busing operation between DL JFK terminals is not much different from EWR either. UA is behind the curve on a lot of things. Facilities isn't one of them.

Sorry, but the IAD gates at A1-A6 are a total dump...some of the worst facilities in the country. And the C/D Concourse at IAD is pretty bad too. And UA has no plans to improve them. The RJ gates on the F concourse at ORD are pretty bad as well. UA has plenty of facility problems.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 35):
Post merger, there are still lots of narrowbodies on order, and with a combined pilot contract they can finally realign the RJ fleet, which they are doing.

But most of that narrowbody order book is fleet replacement, not growth. UA's mainline fleet shows little signs of growing and up-gauging regional routes. The combined UA has too much debt and can't afford the CAPEX to grow the mainline fleet the way DL is doing. Even US/AA could have a better fleet than UA should they manage to merge.


User currently offlinepeanuts From Netherlands, joined Dec 2009, 1438 posts, RR: 4
Reply 43, posted (11 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4874 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 39):
Should I go on?

Arriving at SFO a month ago from RDM was kind of a major let down. Poor signage, rude employee, stairs down, bus, rude employee, long bus ride, lots of turns and maneuvering, rude employee greeting the bus, emergency stairs up. Ugh.

And to be fair, the JFK DL bus people (including the person checking boarding pass before entering bus area) are a strange bunch. Where do they find these people? It's a terrible experience, consistently. That "New York" attitude is wearing thin a bit to many people, just my perception of it.

[Edited 2013-09-27 09:35:24]


Question Conventional Wisdom. While not all commonly held beliefs are wrong…all should be questioned.
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17442 posts, RR: 46
Reply 44, posted (11 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4858 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 43):
UA's domestic fleet strategy is a major weakness.

I agree

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 43):
Sorry, but the IAD gates at A1-A6 are a total dump...some of the worst facilities in the country. And the C/D Concourse at IAD is pretty bad too. And UA has no plans to improve them. The RJ gates on the F concourse at ORD are pretty bad as well. UA has plenty of facility problems

Of course it has plenty of facility problems; all carriers do. Other than D and one corner of A, DFW is a mess There is pretty much no nice part of LAX other than the brand new TBIT. MIA is only recently not a pit of despair. Most of ATL looks just as bad as C/D in IAD. LGA compares unfavorably to BOM. There are parts of BOS and MSP that time has simply forgotten. Most of SEA and SLC would fit right in as another concourse at ORD. Every airline has facility problems, and fixing them is a monumental investment in time and money.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 43):
But most of that narrowbody order book is fleet replacement, not growth.

True, but considering UA's orderbook had nothing but cobwebs before, it's better than nothing.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22923 posts, RR: 20
Reply 45, posted (11 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4868 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 45):
LGA compares unfavorably to BOM.

For AA and UA, that's fair. For US and DL, it's not.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17442 posts, RR: 46
Reply 46, posted (11 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4779 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 46):
For AA and UA, that's fair. For US and DL, it's not.

Idunno...that new BOM domestic terminal is actually pretty nice , and the US terminal has been showing its age for years, never mind the original DL/NW terminal at the eastern end.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinetoxtethogrady From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1289 posts, RR: 0
Reply 47, posted (11 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4689 times:

Quoting peanuts (Reply 44):
UA's domestic fleet strategy is a major weakness

I would agree. The surest symptom of it is the exorbitant cost structure for the domestic network, though I have my suspicions they are cheating by ascribing certain international costs to their domestic activities while claiming domestic is much less profitable than international. I guess if your strategy is to expand your international operations and leave domestic as a second-class operation, you have to make the international profit-and-loss justify the investment.


User currently offlinetoxtethogrady From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1289 posts, RR: 0
Reply 48, posted (11 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 4602 times:

Quoting peanuts (Reply 44):
Sorry, but the IAD gates at A1-A6 are a total dump...some of the worst facilities in the country.

At the time they were built, back in 1998, they were state-of-the-art (the Airport staff actually went to Cincinnati and Pittsburgh to gather the best ideas from those two hubs), but there were no passenger boarding bridges that could meet the sill height of a CRJ. Also, Concourse A was not permanent, so it had to be built so it could be disassembled when a higher and better use came along. It does have a people-mover connection to the Main Terminal and Concourse C, but it's been open for 14 years already, and styles have changed.


User currently offlinepsa188 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 513 posts, RR: 18
Reply 49, posted (11 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 4426 times:

Joe Brancatelli is not the only one to slam UA on the "friendly skies" issue.
David J. Danto wrote a scathing piece on his blog about UA/CO and puts the blame on the carrier's problems squarely on ex-CO management. The article's here, it's worth a read and it backs up what Joe Brancatelli says.

http://danto.info/Fly_the_friendly_lies-JSM.htm


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17442 posts, RR: 46
Reply 50, posted (11 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4288 times:

Quoting psa188 (Reply 50):
David J. Danto wrote a scathing piece on his blog

Good for him. Who the heck is he?



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently onlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5439 posts, RR: 5
Reply 51, posted (11 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 4253 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 38):
There really is no JFK T3 in the UA network.

While it is the overflow facility to TC (which is pretty nice IMHO) EWR TA is worse than appalling. That said, apparently PANYNJ want to knock it over and build a new facility.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 43):
The combined UA has too much debt and can't afford the CAPEX to grow the mainline fleet the way DL is doing

Que? UA has more new aircraft on order than DL does. The UA (read CO) model is much more CAPEX intensive than DL's. While that does mean that UA (and previously CO) had higher debt, their internal accounting justified it on the basis of lower fuel and maintenance costs.

Quoting psa188 (Reply 50):
puts the blame on the carrier's problems squarely on ex-CO management

I'm sure he did.

Anyone had a look at what they're saying on that other website? It would be good for a laugh  



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlinetype-rated From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 4990 posts, RR: 19
Reply 52, posted (11 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 4222 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 5):
but UGH HALF CASHEWS???? EVERYTHING IS RUINED.

UA could save even more if they went from Cashew halves to Cashew bit's & pieces.



Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
User currently offlineMSPNWA From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1936 posts, RR: 2
Reply 53, posted (11 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 4017 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 26):
I disagree. There are key areas where UA is quite a ways behind the competition, especially DL. Here are a couple:

1) Airport facilities. The experiences for passengers, especially the many who must take regional flights, at IAD, ORD, IAH and EWR is quite poor. The only DL hubs whose facilities are even arguably as bad as these are JFK (which has improved) and SLC.

Oh I don't know about that one. JFK is a still a place to shy away from, specifically if you have to fly through T2. The domestic concourses at ATL are obsolete (cramped, no moving walkways, etc.). MSP has its drawbacks. I've never been to EWR and wouldn't expect great things there, but I've been through every other major UA hub and none of them keep me away like JFK and ATL do. I really like DEN and SFO. IAH and ORD are decent. I don't think IAD is THAT bad. Yeah some of the regional gates aren't great, but neither are they at JFK, ATL, and even parts of DTW.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 26):
2) Overuse of 50 seat aircraft. Here's what my city sees to each legacy carriers' largest hub:

Now I totally agree that UA is running too many 50-seaters, but remember, this is a two-way street. Pilots have to sign off. UA can only run what they have, and for the most part that's 50-seaters. CO pilots held on to a tight scope and brought no large RJs to the merge. UA is only now being able to add to that group of jets. Small narrowbodies like the A319 and 73G aren't the current solution either. Instead of giving the award to DL management in this area, give it to DL pilots for conceding so heavily on scope. They took one for the team. UA management hasn't had as many options.

Cubs, I don't think your home city is a fair comparison for UA. It isn't a former hub like for AA or sit right next door to mega-hubs like CLT and ATL.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 26):
3) IT infrastructure. Someone mentioned that they were impressed with their interaction with staff during IROPS. On DL, it is rarely necessary to interact with staff during IROPS. The app or a kiosk presents alternate options, you click on what you want and away you go. It's phenomenal.

Last time I had an IRROPS situation on DL - a thunderstorm at DTW - I was very lucky to simply get out that same day to an airport within driving distance (RDU) of my intended destination (GSO). Of course my first option was to use their automated system, and my "best" option was DTW-CMH-ATL-GSO--the NEXT day, making my trip in vain. So I had to stand in line for hours just to see somebody (UA's numbering idea would have been nice). Oh, and then because I "diverted" to RDU, on the return trip at GSO it wouldn't let me check in since the system didn't think I completed the outbound trip. They barely got me fixed up in time to make my flight. Maybe it's changed for DL since then, but if not for the excellent (but limited) staff at DTW and GSO, my trip would have been a disaster with that frustrating IT. It can't get much worse to deal with.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 26):
At the same time, to pretend that UA is right there with the other legacies is foolish, IMO.

I don't understand why you can't put them right there. For me their employees have been excellent lately. Their performance numbers are greatly improved. Their hard products are very competitive. Their technology isn't always pretty, but it's been working. Their network is outstanding. They have their weaknesses, such as too many 50-seaters and a playing catch-up with Wifi, but who doesn't have issues like that? To me UA still isn't on the same level as WN, but I've been happy with how they've treated me in 2013. They've delivered what I expected. So many customers are expecting too much. Imagine the complaints if UA's fleet plan was acquiring old MD-90s, cramming 160 seats in them, stripping out the IFE, and then flying them as far as they can to large markets like SFO. Imagine the crying if UA continuously cut its seat pitch or took away about half of the E+ seats. And heaven forbid, imagine the outrage if UA closed one hub and severely cut another. It took a while for UA employees to get on board, but they have. Now it's time for UA customers to get on board. The grass isn't universally greener elsewhere.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 43):
The combined UA has too much debt and can't afford the CAPEX to grow the mainline fleet the way DL is doing.

DL had an enormous debt load to trim, and their fleet renewal plans have reflected that. They have comparatively few new planes on order, and they are mostly of current (i.e. cheaper) technology. UA has been able to keep their fleet younger, and their order books are balanced with current and next generation models that are being delivered now, not later. In the end I bet you will be surprised at how little DL will "grow" with their plan.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 43):

And despite UA's recent orders for 76 seaters, it's not nearly enough. UA will be way behind DL for the forseeable future. UA's domestic fleet strategy is a major weakness.

Again, give the award to DL pilots for their sacrifice. UA and AA management would love to have such willing employees.


User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6606 posts, RR: 24
Reply 54, posted (11 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3862 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 44):
Most of ATL looks just as bad as C/D in IAD.


Hardly. The Concourses at ATL are much wider, the bathrooms much cleaner and the number of stores/restaurants vastly greater. Not to mention that DL's SkyClubs are vastly superior to the dumpy UA Club lounges.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 51):
The UA (read CO) model is much more CAPEX intensive than DL's.

Which is exactly why UA can't GROW it's mainline fleet. Most of the CAPEX will go to simply replacing existing planes. This leaves UA extremely reliant on RJ's for the forseeable future. And much of that RJ lift provides an inferior product that is far from friendly....or even on time.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 53):
Instead of giving the award to DL management in this area, give it to DL pilots for conceding so heavily on scope. They took one for the team. UA management hasn't had as many options.

But DL is picking up 88 717's, so the DL pilots didn't give that much away. They'll have a larger mainline fleet than UA.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 53):
Imagine the complaints if UA's fleet plan was acquiring old MD-90s, cramming 160 seats in them, stripping out the IFE, and then flying them as far as they can to large markets like SFO.

I think most people would much prefer an MD90 over a CRJ. Not to mention that UA is ripping IFE out of the A320/A319 family and cramming more seats in them.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 53):
And heaven forbid, imagine the outrage if UA closed one hub and severely cut another.

That's probably coming for UA. But instead, UA has downgauged ALL their hubs to RJ facilities.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 53):
UA has been able to keep their fleet younger, and their order books are balanced with current and next generation models that are being delivered now, not later.

But that younger fleet doesn't do me much good when 70% of my UA flights are on 10 year old RJ's/props.


User currently onlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5439 posts, RR: 5
Reply 55, posted (11 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3824 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 54):
Which is exactly why UA can't GROW it's mainline fleet

But other than the 717s replacing RJs, I wasn't under the impression that DL was growing much, if at all, at mainline above the 120 seat level? The 739s and 321s will replace 757s and IIRC the 330s are to replace the older 767s (? maybe they are for longhaul expansion?)

For the record, UA's new pilot contract contains a similar clause to DL's: to expand the 70+ seat fleet beyond a certain level (which is necessary to reduce the 50 seat fleet) then they need to grow mainline.

UA won't have any issues securing finance on a fleet of E90s or C100s if they wanted to. And IMHO they will, as Smisek is just as aware as Anderson is that 50 seaters are dogs.



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6606 posts, RR: 24
Reply 56, posted (11 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3776 times:

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 55):
But other than the 717s replacing RJs, I wasn't under the impression that DL was growing much, if at all, at mainline above the 120 seat level?

True, but that's still a lot of mainline growth compared to UA whose mainline fleet keeps shrinking.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 55):
to expand the 70+ seat fleet beyond a certain level (which is necessary to reduce the 50 seat fleet) then they need to grow mainline.

And so far, I'm not convinced UA will order enough 70+ seaters to hit that mainline target.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 55):
UA won't have any issues securing finance on a fleet of E90s or C100s if they wanted to. And IMHO they will, as Smisek is just as aware as Anderson is that 50 seaters are dogs.

I don't know. UA CAPEX is almost maxxed out for the next 3 years. Plus, the economics of the E190's at mainline are very questionable and the C100's are a complete unknown.


User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7136 posts, RR: 8
Reply 57, posted (11 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3740 times:

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 53):
Now I totally agree that UA is running too many 50-seaters, but remember, this is a two-way street. Pilots have to sign off.

The only comment so far that has me confused, I thought this was about the customer and the airline, unless some other airline employees are flying UA's 50 seaters.
I guess I think there should be no qualifying BUT in the response of agreement 


User currently onlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5439 posts, RR: 5
Reply 58, posted (11 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 3672 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 56):
I'm not convinced UA will order enough 70+ seaters to hit that mainline target

I'll leave this for your reading pleasure: UA/CO Pilots Ratify New Contract (by UnitedTristar Nov 12 2012 in Civil Aviation)

To be honest, some of the scope provisions begin to make my head hurt, BUT one thing that is clear is that UAX will be down to a hard cap of 450 hulls from 588 now. That's 138 50 seaters going buh-bye.

UA will have a cap of 255 70-76 seaters, of which they already have 183. United themselves have 30 E75s on firm order which IIRC will be operated by Mesa (?) and SkyWest independently have 40 E75s on order for UAX flying. That makes 253/255.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 56):
the economics of the E190's at mainline are very questionable

OK, now I'm confused. Could you elaborate?



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22923 posts, RR: 20
Reply 59, posted (11 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3477 times:

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 53):
Cubs, I don't think your home city is a fair comparison for UA. It isn't a former hub like for AA or sit right next door to mega-hubs like CLT and ATL.

All right. Let's look at STL (and discount AA, as it's an ex-hub)

IAH-STL: All 50 seaters
ATL-STL: All mainline (including a 752)
CLT-STL: Mix of CR9 and mainline

How 'bout CMH (nobody's ex-hub, save arguably US/HP):

IAH-CMH: All 50 seaters but a single daily E70
DFW-CMH: All mainline
ATL-CMH: All mainline
CLT-CMH: Mix of E75, CR9 and mainline

Too far from Texas? Let's look at OKC:

IAH-OKC: 1 mainline, 1 CR7 and 8 or so ERJs
DFW-OKC: Mostly mainline, a couple of ERJ frequencies
ATL-OKC: Mostly mainline, a couple of CR9s

Do we need to go on?

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 53):
Of course my first option was to use their automated system, and my "best" option was DTW-CMH-ATL-GSO--the NEXT day, making my trip in vain. So I had to stand in line for hours just to see somebody (UA's numbering idea would have been nice). Oh, and then because I "diverted" to RDU, on the return trip at GSO it wouldn't let me check in since the system didn't think I completed the outbound trip. They barely got me fixed up in time to make my flight. Maybe it's changed for DL since then, but if not for the excellent (but limited) staff at DTW and GSO, my trip would have been a disaster with that frustrating IT. It can't get much worse to deal with.

Load are so high that a lot of reroute options are suboptimal on all carriers. Today, though, most IROPS situations should not require interaction with an agent.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17442 posts, RR: 46
Reply 60, posted (11 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3362 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 59):
IAH-STL: All 50 seaters
ATL-STL: All mainline (including a 752)
CLT-STL: Mix of CR9 and mainline

You have to consider the context of each carrier--AA and UA are just beginning to be able to get larger RJs. There's no question UA has a way to go on domestic fleeting, but it has only recently gotten the ability to do so. There's also no way that a zillion M80s to everywhere is an optimal solution, and AA has only recently gotten a handle on future fleeting. Also outside of ATL, which is actually a stark exception for DL, there is very little mainline--DTW/MSP/LGA/SLC are all heavy on RJs.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 54):
The Concourses at ATL are much wider, the bathrooms much cleaner and the number of stores/restaurants vastly greater.

Haven't been in the ATL lounges lately, but it'd probably be hard to have a worse lounge than IAD. The biggest difference is IAD has dark carpeting, otherwise they're the same to me. There are some janky areas in ATL.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22923 posts, RR: 20
Reply 61, posted (11 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3303 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 60):
You have to consider the context of each carrier--AA and UA are just beginning to be able to get larger RJs. There's no question UA has a way to go on domestic fleeting, but it has only recently gotten the ability to do so.

I agree with all that, but I am looking at this from a customer perspective. Customers don't care what the pilot contracts look like. They care whether the aircraft are comfortable.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 60):
Also outside of ATL, which is actually a stark exception for DL, there is very little mainline--DTW/MSP/LGA/SLC are all heavy on RJs.

Okay . . .

BNA-DTW: Mix of mainline and E75 in most schedules; occasional large CRJ
BNA-IAH: All ERJs except a single E70 in some schedules

STL-DTW: About 50/50 mainline and large RJs in most schedules
STL-IAH: All 50 seaters

CMH-DTW: Mix of 50 seaters and E-jets
CMH-IAH: All 50 seaters but a single daily frequency

OKC-DTW: Large RJs
OKC-IAH: Predominantly 50 seaters



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17442 posts, RR: 46
Reply 62, posted (11 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 3070 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 61):
BNA-DTW: Mix of mainline and E75 in most schedules; occasional large CRJ
BNA-IAH: All ERJs except a single E70 in some schedules

UA is not going to come out on top in any mainline schedule comparisons any time soon. They just don't have the large rj numbers yet. But whereas DL is over two thirds mainline in ATL, it is the reverse in just about every other hub. Similar story goes for AA and DFW.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22923 posts, RR: 20
Reply 63, posted (11 months 4 days ago) and read 3061 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 62):
But whereas DL is over two thirds mainline in ATL, it is the reverse in just about every other hub. Similar story goes for AA and DFW.

So it's a "largest hub" thing or a "single hub" thing? In which hub is UA over two thirds mainline? GUM doesn't count.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineStuckInCA From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1957 posts, RR: 0
Reply 64, posted (11 months 4 days ago) and read 3054 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 5):
I can barely remember my last terrible airline experience

Wow. Unless you fly rather infrequently, I'd argue you've been very lucky or your expectations are very low. My flight back from FRA on AA last weekend was terrible. The flight to FRA the week before was much worse. Both experiences I'd rather not repeaat - thought they did get me there.


User currently offlineMSPNWA From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1936 posts, RR: 2
Reply 65, posted (11 months 4 days ago) and read 2997 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 59):
Do we need to go on?

Not at all. IAH is going to look bad no matter what the comparison. Aircraft gauge has always been a drawback to IAH. It's an ex-CO hub that didn't have any large RJs. They can't cross fleet ex-UA planes on every route. IAH is not a mega connecting hub like ATL or DFW that permits higher guages. I wish it wasn't a 50-seat haven, but on the flip side that does allow for better frequency. You could say that part of the "problem" is that UA doesn't have a super-hub in the network. It's very balanced across the entire country, so every hub sees a high amount of RJs. Not good for those that crave a mainline jet everywhere they go, but it is good for those who simply want to get there.

I really don't see small RJs as the cause of UA's issues, nor do I see them as the reason for complaints. Again, in this industry, customers can't have everything that they want. You have to make tradeoffs. Smaller RJs are currently a tradeoff for offering a more balanced network.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 59):
Load are so high that a lot of reroute options are suboptimal on all carriers. Today, though, most IROPS situations should not require interaction with an agent.

The bottom line is that the automation was worthless. I was one of the first to get re-booked too before it really hit the fan that day. Maybe it's changed since then, and that experience leaves plenty of room for improvement.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22923 posts, RR: 20
Reply 66, posted (11 months 4 days ago) and read 2980 times:

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 65):
I really don't see small RJs as the cause of UA's issues, nor do I see them as the reason for complaints.

If I can connect in DFW and ride 738s the whole way or connect in IAH and ride ERJs the whole way--which is true on a lot of itineraries--it's not a difficult choice. Maybe some people like 50 seaters. I like being able to get work done, which the lack of personal space and the lack of Wifi interfere with.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 65):
Again, in this industry, customers can't have everything that they want. You have to make tradeoffs. Smaller RJs are currently a tradeoff for offering a more balanced network.

No, customers cannot have everything they want. But (taking this discussion full circle), discounting problems like poor facilities or too many regional jets as "customer complaining" misses the point. UA is behind in some areas. There are good reasons that rational customers avoid UA.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17442 posts, RR: 46
Reply 67, posted (11 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2744 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 63):
In which hub is UA over two thirds mainline?

None, but UA had an empty order book, and I assume backfilling 757s is a priority ahead of upgauging rj flying right now.

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 64):
Unless you fly rather infrequently, I'd argue you've been very lucky or your expectations are very low. My flight back from FRA on AA last weekend was terrible. The flight to FRA the week before was much worse.

I've flown 75k miles in the last six months. What was so awful on AA? I can't even pinpoint an outright bad experience recently. In fact my one cancelation was handled in minutes, and other than the unplanned overnight was totally fine.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineStuckInCA From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1957 posts, RR: 0
Reply 68, posted (11 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2724 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 67):
I've flown 75k miles in the last six months. What was so awful on AA? I can't even pinpoint an outright bad experience recently. In fact my one cancelation was handled in minutes, and other than the unplanned overnight was totally fine.

I don't want to dwell on it here as I wrote to them and received a satisfactory response. That said, I doubt if I'll redeem that travel voucher anytime soon. Don't get me wrong, the employees were friendly enough, but overall it just was an unpleasant, uncomfortable and stressful trip (compared to my many trips on DL this year).

I only bring this up in that claiming people are basically fussy for criticizing some US airlines is unfair. My expectations aren't very high. All of this said, I haven't flown UA in years.


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17442 posts, RR: 46
Reply 69, posted (11 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2659 times:

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 68):
I only bring this up in that claiming people are basically fussy for criticizing some US airlines is unfair.

US passengers are getting what they pay for, which is a phenomenal deal compared to what they were paying only a few years ago, never mind the "golden age" that was never that golden. Sure there are still terrible experiences a-plenty, but for the most part the only complaint I have is the TSA, and that's not anything the airlines can fix.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineT5towbar From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 548 posts, RR: 1
Reply 70, posted (11 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2627 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 56):
I don't know. UA CAPEX is almost maxxed out for the next 3 years. Plus, the economics of the E190's at mainline are very questionable and the C100's are a complete unknown.

I heard that the economics (and the maintenance) from the E190 are not that great. US (as M/L) and B6 flies them. Are there any problems from those operators? Most people want the 175 instead of the 190 anyway.

I thought that the C Series would be the choice for the next generation smaller M/L aircraft at 100 seats. Which would be at scope where M/L must fly them.



A comment from an Ex CON: Work Hard.....Fly Standby!
User currently offlinewashingtonflyer From Bouvet Island, joined Sep 2013, 496 posts, RR: 0
Reply 71, posted (11 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2545 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 69):
US passengers are getting what they pay for, which is a phenomenal deal compared to what they were paying only a few years ago, never mind the "golden age" that was never that golden. Sure there are still terrible experiences a-plenty, but for the most part the only complaint I have is the TSA, and that's not anything the airlines can fix.

Thats not necessarily true. On average fares are down, but there are lot of people who don't have flexibility with fares, and they are getting absolutely slammed. Like the $1400 coach my boss paid for last week to go from DCA-CLT. And he had to pay $25 for a "Choice" seat on top of that.


User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6606 posts, RR: 24
Reply 72, posted (11 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2402 times:

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 65):
Smaller RJs are currently a tradeoff for offering a more balanced network.

A more balanced network of what? I don't see how small RJ's create a more balanced network.

It should be noted that this past week, UA gave updated financial guidance for the 3Q and it wasn't good. Revenue growth was slower than expected while costs are rising faster than expected. Sorry, but at this point in the merger UA should be getting more cost and revenue synergies. Brancatelli may be off the mark on some his complaints, but UA still isn't attracting business customers like they should be.


User currently offlineairportugal310 From Palau, joined Apr 2004, 3619 posts, RR: 2
Reply 73, posted (11 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2383 times:

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 64):

I've flown 60 flights this year for a total of 293k...either your expectations are way too high or it's just you. I agree with Mav11...pretty good track record so far

That said, just flew 4 UA legs that involved DEN, ORD and and 2 "out" stations. Flight crews, ground crews etc couldn't have been better, and I went into it with low expectations admittedly. Glad I was proved wrong!!

Edited to say that I'm not arguing with you Stuck...but I feel UA gets a bum rap for reasons I'm not readily seeing as a normal pax.

[Edited 2013-09-29 12:45:19]


I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
User currently offlineVC10er From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 2885 posts, RR: 10
Reply 74, posted (11 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2304 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Max Q (Reply 17):

From a brand strategy standpoint, evivinf FTFS slogan was clever, in fact genus.

UA has improved a lot, I have had 47 international BF segments this year I can only complain about duty free. Once they didn't have what I wanted and one time they forgot to give the FA's a key to the cart.

They need asile access seats to make the big leap.

But the planes are as clean as SWISS, the food is ok, the front line people are neutral to very friendly. And every time I've had a real issue, they have been great and fast to rebook even if the next plane out is on another airline. Once flying in BF, I missed my connection in Asia and the next flight out was ANA. ANA had no seats in business, so UA got me a seat in ANA First!

They have 787's, the best route system in the world and the most flights out of NYC area where I live...and MP is the most generous in the world. YES: last year sucked.

If the "agenda" is to get joy from bashing United then "sticks and stones" bla bla.



The world is missing love, let's use our flights to spread it!
User currently offlinen505fx From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 268 posts, RR: 0
Reply 75, posted (11 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2290 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 54):
Not to mention that UA is ripping IFE out of the A320/A319 family and cramming more seats in them.

Why do people keep perpetuating this twist of truth? Crappy small overhead LCD screens are going away in favor of streaming video/audio on your own device. New seats, and larger E+ cabins are being added....who cares if there are more seats, they aren't taking away pitch and overall adding to the entertainment options...so please, once and for all just stop it with whining of "more seats, no entertainment"!!!


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17442 posts, RR: 46
Reply 76, posted (11 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2268 times:

Quoting n505fx (Reply 75):
Why do people keep perpetuating this twist of truth? Crappy small overhead LCD screens are going away in favor of streaming video/audio on your own device.

Because it's my right as a passenger to watch a worn out tape of Two and a Half Men and if UA wants to deny me that right I'm taking my business elsewhere!   Also DL has 13 more seats in their 739 than UA so therefore UA is cramming them in. Honestly I think half the complaints out there for any airline are a preexisting condition. You expect a terrible experience as you pull up to the airport and lo and behold perception becomes reality.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineTango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3805 posts, RR: 29
Reply 77, posted (11 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2154 times:

While I would agree that Brancatelli's exaggeration of how bad UA's service/customer relations have become compromises the article's credibility... in spite of all the embellishments, there are also a few points covered that have some basis in fact.

Quoting the final paragraph of Brancatelli's rant:

"Only bad things happen when a consumer-products company promises something in a national ad buy and then doesn't deliver," one top advertising executive told me after screening the United spots at my request. "No airline delivers on friendly skies today. The smart ones wouldn't even promise it."

Makes a valid point -- airlines (at least in the U.S.) have written the proverbial book on the meaning of overpromising and underdelivering. It's not so much that they fail to deliver a safe, reliable, positive experience with reasonable consistency as it is that they promise -- perhaps more implicitly than explicitly -- more than what they can consistently deliver... which results in customers with unrealistic expectations who are, in turn, easily disappointed who, in turn, tend to speak/write about their airline experiences in negative terms...sometimes in the extreme, ala Brancatelli's rant.

Also agree that "friendly skies" seems a questionable marketing theme for any U.S. airline today... for more than any other reason because airlines seem to be going out of their way to make the air travel experience as impersonal as possible. As for airline frontline staff I encounter or observe, >90% could be described as "friendly" even if they must keep any conversation 'short and to the point' due to their workloads and expectations of their supervisors/managers.

Quoting toxtethogrady (Thread starter):
Detail United's failure to satisfy its most loyal, most profitable fliers and you are told that too many elite United MileagePlus customers were "over-entitled."

While the "over-entitled" mentality is true to a very large degree, management has no one to blame but themselves...for failing to consider the realities of human nature. The more people get 'something for nothing' the more they expect/demand even more for nothing...and there is a limit to how much airlines can 'give away for free' and satisfy the 'need to make a profit' issue. Yes, I get the concept that "loyalty" has value to airlines -- I also get the reality that when an airline has too many "loyal" customers chasing too few freebies/perks, airlines have once again set themselves up for the type of opinions stated in Brancatelli's rant.

Much better to be less generous from the outset and be able to deliver consistently than to be over-generous and end up with lots of customers being denied the benefits promised because of too many "loyal" customers chasing too few freebies/perks, resulting in lots of disgruntled customers when airlines are forced to 'devalue' their "loyalty" programs to bring some semblance of balance to the numbers of 'entitled' relative to the quantity of rewards available. If airlines then find they have been too stingy in what they offer to "loyal" customers, they can always add value to their "loyalty" programs...and look like heroes (instead of zeroes for 'taking away' benefits and/or upping qualifying threshholds).


User currently offlinen505fx From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 268 posts, RR: 0
Reply 78, posted (11 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 2041 times:

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 77):
one top advertising executive told me after screening the United spots at my request. "No airline delivers on friendly skies today. The smart ones wouldn't even promise it."

Interesting....because I probably have 10x more exposure to these "top ad execs"...oh wait, I am probably one of those top ad execs that he thinks he knows, and I can tell you, after reading brief after brief after brief on brands over the past 17 years, having launched some pretty memorable campaigns (rebranding a fractional company, 5 Super Bowl campaigns under my belt - 3 of which the top awards), I can say McGarryBowen did a pretty spot on job of doing what they needed for United...from a consumer perspective and to motivate the employees as well. So if Brancatelli wants to whip it out and compare his ad buddies to mine, and his experience in the biz to mine, or hell...his college degree in this business (aviation) to min, let him bring it...otherwise can we stop this thread even giving that old troll the time of day?


User currently offlinepeanuts From Netherlands, joined Dec 2009, 1438 posts, RR: 4
Reply 79, posted (11 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 2030 times:

Quoting n505fx (Reply 78):
So if Brancatelli wants to whip it out and compare his ad buddies to mine, and his experience in the biz to mine, or hell...his college degree in this business (aviation) to min, let him bring it...otherwise can we stop this thread even giving that old troll the time of day?

But having to prop yourself up like that does what exactly? Make two trolls?

Quoting n505fx (Reply 78):
I can say McGarryBowen did a pretty spot on job of doing what they needed for United...from a consumer perspective and to motivate the employees as well.

How do you measure that success? Finger in air? Just curious.

I find absolutely nothing clever about reviving an old slogan like that. It's a trap for UA.



Question Conventional Wisdom. While not all commonly held beliefs are wrong…all should be questioned.
User currently offlinen505fx From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 268 posts, RR: 0
Reply 80, posted (11 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1990 times:

Quoting peanuts (Reply 79):
I find absolutely nothing clever about reviving an old slogan like that. It's a trap for UA.

Experience and reaction is what I can go against...tapping in to brand truths, brand equity, brand good will and aspirational promise...but if you don't work in the biz, nor study the U.S. consumer, I wouldn't expect you to understand.

And to answer your former question...no, it just establishes credibility to shut down people on boards who think they have one fuggin iota what they are talking about.

As far as measuring...there are a ton of tools out there to measure ad effectiveness, most we will never see, as they will be proprietary to McGarryBowen and their clients, but I am sure we will see some polling and be able to see some brand lift in the future, it is just a gut feeling you get after being in this business for nearly 2 decades.

[Edited 2013-09-29 18:22:15]

User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6606 posts, RR: 24
Reply 81, posted (11 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1974 times:

Quoting n505fx (Reply 80):
brand equity

Except there is no brand equity left in this slogan. United long since destroyed it.

Quoting n505fx (Reply 80):
brand good will and aspirational promise

Again the brand good will is long gone and aspirational promise doesn't work well for a commoditized business like air transport. If you are who you claim to be, you should know that.

And lest you think I'm picking solely on UA, DL would have the same problem if they brought back "We love to fly and it shows."


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22923 posts, RR: 20
Reply 82, posted (11 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1955 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 81):
Except there is no brand equity left in this slogan. United long since destroyed it.

is there some equity left in it in New York? I wonder whether there are some folks who flew UA when pmUA was much, much bigger in NYC (and NYC was much more fragmented) who left before UA lost the equity. I don't know the answer, but I'm not ready to dismiss it outright.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinepeanuts From Netherlands, joined Dec 2009, 1438 posts, RR: 4
Reply 83, posted (11 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1950 times:

Quoting n505fx (Reply 80):
...but if you don't work in the biz, nor study the U.S. consumer, I wouldn't expect you to understand.

Well, I'm definitely not going to whip it out over this one...

I find your statement more bluster than anything. Advertising agencies/marketing strategists have missed their target many times. Like any other industry, it comes with many failures.

But reading your resume I'm just completely off on that.

FTFS will become a punching bag in the blogospere, twitter world and facebook likes. It's just too good to pass it up like that. Clever. Especially if we have to consider that any news (positive or negative) about a company is a good thing, right?



Question Conventional Wisdom. While not all commonly held beliefs are wrong…all should be questioned.
User currently offlinen505fx From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 268 posts, RR: 0
Reply 84, posted (11 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1939 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 81):
Except there is no brand equity left in this slogan. United long since destroyed it.

Meh...your uninformed opinion, I am sure, with the amount of spend in media and production, this was tested and validated, a process you probably know nothing about.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 81):
Again the brand good will is long gone and aspirational promise doesn't work well for a commoditized business like air transport. If you are who you claim to be, you should know that.

I am who I claim to be, and you would be surprised at the power of nostalgia, especially amongst those in this economy that can actually purchase these products. I wouldn't say it universally for most products, but for whom UAL is targeting, I would venture a guess this message sparks.


User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6606 posts, RR: 24
Reply 85, posted (11 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1920 times:

Quoting n505fx (Reply 84):
I am sure, with the amount of spend in media and production, this was tested and validated, a process you probably know nothing about.

Many branding efforts test well, but still go on to fail miserably...this is particularly true in the airline industry. United's "Rising" campaign tested well, but did little for United's brand.

Quoting n505fx (Reply 84):
you would be surprised at the power of nostalgia, especially amongst those in this economy that can actually purchase these products.

But nothing in the commercials actually makes you nostalgic to fly. While the phrase is nostalgic, the commercials don't communicate any sense of nostalgia. The commercials aren't bad, but they are very mediocre. The only gain for UA will be simply that they are marketing at all. Here in the DC market, these are some of the first UA commercials we've seen in some time.


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17442 posts, RR: 46
Reply 86, posted (11 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1909 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1,reply=81Except there is no brand equity left in this slogan. United long since destroyed it.:

Judging from the numerous people who PINE for the old UA through opaque rose colored glasses (the great ads! The beautiful cartoons!), often the same people that crap all over anything today, that brand equity is still very much alive.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6606 posts, RR: 24
Reply 87, posted (11 months 3 days ago) and read 1888 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 86):
Judging from the numerous people who PINE for the old UA through opaque rose colored glasses (the great ads! The beautiful cartoons!), often the same people that crap all over anything today, that brand equity is still very much alive.

Sorry, but a handful of a.net geeks really doesn't mean brand equity is alive.


User currently offlinen505fx From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 268 posts, RR: 0
Reply 88, posted (11 months 3 days ago) and read 1856 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 85):
United's "Rising" campaign tested well, but did little for United's brand.

Nope, because they didn't have the product to back it. This McGarry campaign was baked for a while, so one has to give some credence to UAL holding it until things were ticking up.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 85):
While the phrase is nostalgic, the commercials don't communicate any sense of nostalgia.

Debatable, as that emotion you are referencing is a personal reaction, so you can't make a blanket comment, but what they do well is tie current product offering to a nostalgic notion and strong mnemonic, which are all wins in ad business.

Look...lets just cut to the chase....all of the UAL haters are going to be UAL haters...there is just no way around it. I can sit here and argue all the finer points of advertising, all day long with you, if you aren't in the business of advertising, or just want to hate UAL, we are just wasting each others time; it is putting pearls before swines. So lets just agree to keep your hatred of anything UAL and other people's knowledge of their industry separate, and move on.


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17442 posts, RR: 46
Reply 89, posted (11 months 3 days ago) and read 1838 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 87):
Sorry, but a handful of a.net geeks really doesn't mean brand equity is alive.

Don't forget all of flyertalk . I think there's plenty of brand equity, particularly when you consider that historically UA was never that "friendly" to begin with. And surprise, AA was never really "something special in the air." But when you mention either, there's no question whom you're talking about.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinen505fx From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 268 posts, RR: 0
Reply 90, posted (11 months 3 days ago) and read 1792 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 89):
I think there's plenty of brand equity, particularly when you consider that historically UA was never that "friendly" to begin with.

I am sorry Mav, but at an age group of 26-35, I HIGHLY doubt you have that much of a point of reference for a company that has been around since 1926...just saying.


User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6606 posts, RR: 24
Reply 91, posted (11 months 3 days ago) and read 1783 times:

Quoting n505fx (Reply 88):
So lets just agree to keep your hatred of anything UAL and other people's knowledge of their industry separate, and move on.

I don't hate UAL, but I'm not gong to mindlessly gush over UA either. Bottomline, something about this merger isn't working. Brancatelli may be a bit off his rocker, but the numbers don't lie. UA is not seeing the revenue synergies expected from the merger. UA is not seeing the cost synergies that were expected. However, all the UA cheerleaders keep saying how much better things have gotten, but the bottomline numbers aren't showing it and that's a problem.

Don't get me wrong, I have always like the use of Rhapsody in Blue for UA. With that said, the use of it in commercials won't drive me to fly UA more or less.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 89):
But when you mention either, there's no question whom you're talking about.

Outside of the a.net and flyertalk worlds, which represent only a microcosm of those who fly, I don't think that's necessarily true. In the typical flyer's mind, both these slogans are largely dead and buried. And even when resurrected, they won't mean much.


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17442 posts, RR: 46
Reply 92, posted (11 months 3 days ago) and read 1770 times:

Quoting n505fx (Reply 90):
I am sorry Mav, but at an age group of 26-35, I HIGHLY doubt you have that much of a point of reference for a company that has been around since 1926...just saying.


How much reference do you think passengers have? 90 years? They've only used the friendly slogan since the 60s. Maybe they were "friendly" by some metric back then, but for the last decade it's been rough going for UA, to be charitable.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinen505fx From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 268 posts, RR: 0
Reply 93, posted (11 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1753 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 92):
but for the last decade it's been rough going for UA, to be charitable.

with all due respect...in your honest opinion and by all metrics trending better


User currently offlineMSPNWA From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1936 posts, RR: 2
Reply 94, posted (11 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1744 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 66):

If I can connect in DFW and ride 738s the whole way or connect in IAH and ride ERJs the whole way--which is true on a lot of itineraries--it's not a difficult choice. Maybe some people like 50 seaters. I like being able to get work done, which the lack of personal space and the lack of Wifi interfere with.

In your case I'd take the 737s. It's commonly the downside of IAH versus DFW. Of course you can flip the story over at ORD.

I don't know if anybody likes 50-seaters - I avoid them as best I can - but at least they're mostly ERJs. And if it means simply getting to where you need to go instead of not, you take the bad with the good.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 66):
There are good reasons that rational customers avoid UA.

Absolutely, just like there are reasons to avoid other carriers. But the common themes in the UA complaints are true for essentially every other carrier as well. It's often a customer attitude issue, not an airline-specific performance issue. You could switch the airline name and not even notice.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 72):
A more balanced network of what? I don't see how small RJ's create a more balanced network.

More balanced meaning more frequencies to a wider variety of destinations in the best times possible (limited geographical backtracking). UA's hubs are spread out quite evenly, and none of them are a mega-hub like ATL, DFW, or CLT that allows for a higher percentage of mainline flights. 50-seaters do offer some advantages. Take DFW versus IAH for example. DFW is about 50% larger in traffic, yet UA is usually able to offer competitive or sometimes better frequency than AA. It's far from ideal to be stuck with the E-jets, but it does offer better frequency at X capacity amount.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 81):
Except there is no brand equity left in this slogan. United long since destroyed it.

It had a ton of equity with me. Even after all these years it screamed United. It could work very well again if they bring the service to match. Airlines have become almost a pure service industry. Human interaction is paramount. The best way for an airline to differentiate is with your people. If UA is that friendly airline, and my flights with them lately have been, it's a great slogan. To me WN would have fit into that slogan for years, but of course this is UA's territory. Hopefully they can run with it.


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17442 posts, RR: 46
Reply 95, posted (11 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1704 times:

Quoting n505fx (Reply 93):
with all due respect...in your honest opinion and by all metrics trending better

I've been saying it has gotten much better than most give it credit  
Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 94):
More balanced meaning more frequencies to a wider variety of destinations in the best times possible (limited geographical backtracking).

Scheduling and fleeting aside, it's pretty extraordinary that UA can offer so many destinations nonstop service to NYC, WAS, CHI, LAX, and SFO, whether it's PVG/PEK or MCI



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22923 posts, RR: 20
Reply 96, posted (11 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1496 times:

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 94):
But the common themes in the UA complaints are true for essentially every other carrier as well.

Who else is running 50 seaters on routes like IAH-CLT and IAD-STL or CR7s on routes like DEN-YYZ and IAD-COS?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6606 posts, RR: 24
Reply 97, posted (11 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1439 times:

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 94):
More balanced meaning more frequencies to a wider variety of destinations in the best times possible (limited geographical backtracking)

But compared to DL, WN or even a merged US/AA, that's not really true. In most markets, UA doesn't offer any larger variety of destinations than its competitors. The only advantage UA does have is that it's hubs are in some of the most important O+D markets in the country, so that does help. Of course, even that is double edged sword as those markets are also some of the most competitive....see the recent analyst note that UA's revenue growth in DEN/SFO is weak due to competition.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 94):
Airlines have become almost a pure service industry. Human interaction is paramount.

True, but many of the airlines are actually trying to reduce human interaction.


Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Ornstein Rips United Management posted Wed Jun 6 2007 19:41:59 by Apodino
United Management Pay posted Tue Jul 25 2006 22:16:39 by CALMSP
Getting Into Airline Management/ Admin posted Tue May 17 2005 18:15:01 by Flyboy80
When Will United Load 787 Into Schedules? posted Sat Feb 18 2012 08:14:56 by 777222LR
United And TWA Flights Into SFO 1969 posted Sun May 16 2010 12:20:07 by bullwinkle
Management Re-tool At United Contiunues posted Wed Aug 20 2008 17:00:57 by United1
United 757's Into MSP posted Wed Apr 18 2007 19:32:52 by Pilotfox
United Diversion Into Detroit? posted Thu Jul 13 2006 02:46:38 by SpeedBird203
United Bumps Into AirTran...Literally posted Tue May 24 2005 22:12:15 by BR715-A1-30
What Material Covers Lights Built Into Runways? posted Sun Feb 27 2005 02:12:50 by PanAm747