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IAG Shareholders Approve Big Airbus/Boeing Order  
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Posted (6 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 8966 times:

IAG investors backed the purchase of jets from Boeing and Airbus worth $17 billion at list price to upgrade the fleets of its main British Airways division and the Vueling low-cost unit.

> 6x 787-9
> 12x 787-10
> 18x A350-1000
> 62x A320 (for Vueling)

Deliveries will start in 2017, with the A350-1000s following a year later and all 36 long-haul jets in the BA fleet by 2021. Barcelona-based Vueling, in which IAG this year took majority control, should see its fleet grow to 125 jets by then.

Ready the story:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...-deal-for-new-ba-vueling-jets.html

[Edited 2013-09-26 11:52:50]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
32 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinemhkansan From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 619 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (6 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 8856 times:

And another airline is replacing 744s with A351s... Now Airbus has to deliver a solid product. I just wish the 748i would be more popular with 744 operators.

User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 2, posted (6 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 8403 times:

Quoting mhkansan (Reply 1):
And another airline is replacing 744s with A351s

Yes, but the 787s are also part of the 744 replacement plan.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinechiad From Norway, joined May 2006, 1079 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (6 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 7071 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
IAG investors backed the purchase of jets from Boeing and Airbus worth $17 billion at list price to upgrade the fleets of its main British Airways division and the Vueling low-cost unit.

Ah .. I missed this one.
Thanks for the update.
Has there been any announcements from Airbus on this?


User currently offlinecolumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7027 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 6473 times:

What about Iberia, I thought they were supposed to get some A350s as well ?


It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineRuscoe From Australia, joined Aug 1999, 1518 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 6328 times:

Is it just coincidence that IAG needs the same number of 787's as 351's or are there other factors at play here as well?

I don't know.

Ruscoe


User currently offlinescouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3364 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6135 times:

Quoting columba (Reply 4):
What about Iberia, I thought they were supposed to get some A350s as well ?

I believe that they're reserved slots for both the 787 and A350 for IB but won't firm the orders until the problems with loss making and employee relations are sorted.


User currently offlineGeo772 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2004, 519 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6085 times:

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 5):

Is it just coincidence that IAG needs the same number of 787's as 351's or are there other factors at play here as well?

I don't know.

Ruscoe

These 787 orders are a top up. BA actually has 42 on order/delivered. 8 787-8, 22 787-9 and 12 787-10.



Flown on A300B4/600,A319/20/21,A332/3,A343,B727,B732/3/4/5/6/7/8,B741/2/4,B752/3,B762/3,B772/3,DC10,L1011-200,VC10,MD80,
User currently offlinetravelhound From Australia, joined May 2008, 826 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6029 times:

Does this mean we will see no more orders for the 777-300ER's?

User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 9, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 5985 times:

Quoting chiad (Reply 3):
Has there been any announcements from Airbus on this?

Not yet, but IAG got green light to firm the orders, so perhaps in the next few weeks.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 10, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 5731 times:

Quoting travelhound (Reply 8):
Does this mean we will see no more orders for the 777-300ER's?

The 77W is an interim solution until the new generation 787/A350 jets become available. So I doubt it.

Quoting columba (Reply 4):
What about Iberia, I thought they were supposed to get some A350s as well ?

Too soon. IAG secured options / delivery slots for another 32 A350s and 12 787s for Iberia, but those won't be firmed until the airline becomes profitable again. So perhaps in a few years.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineparapente From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 1509 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 5605 times:

I always found this order "odd". I would have expected them to replace their 772ers with A359's which look like the perfect replacement. But instead they have gone for the shorter range 7810's. I also would have expected them to replace their 744's with 779X's on a like for like basis but they have gone for the smaller 3510.Shows how little I understand!

User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 6944 posts, RR: 18
Reply 12, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 5524 times:

Lets hope with all these large Airbus orders, the 350 goes off without a hitch.

Congrats to IAG. But I have to wonder....is IAG allowed to trnasfer airframes from one division to another? This is just a hypothetical question, but I was wondering if a BA frame could fly a route for IB.



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlinefrigatebird From Netherlands, joined Jun 2008, 1462 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 5269 times:

Quoting parapente (Reply 11):
I always found this order "odd". I would have expected them to replace their 772ers with A359's which look like the perfect replacement. But instead they have gone for the shorter range 7810's

Actually, the 787-10s are to replace 744s on shorter (Transatlatic or ME) routes.

Quoting parapente (Reply 11):
I also would have expected them to replace their 744's with 779X's on a like for like basis but they have gone for the smaller 3510.

There was no ATO for the 777X when IAG made their decision to order the 787-10/A350-1000. When IAG decides to replace their 777 fleet, we might see the 777X back in contention again. But another split 787/A350 order will be more likely though.



146,318/19/20/21,AB6,332,343,345,388,722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9,742,74E,744,752,762,763,772,77E,773,77W,AT3,ATP,E90,F50/70,M11,
User currently offlineparapente From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 1509 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4836 times:

Actually, the 787-10s are to replace 744s on shorter (Transatlatic or ME) routes.

Wow - well I can see the advantage of reducing fuel consumption by 50% but they would be loosing a load of capacity re a 744 would they not?


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 15, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4428 times:

Quoting parapente (Reply 11):
But instead they have gone for the shorter range 7810's.

This order is for 744 replacement.

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 13):
There was no ATO for the 777X when IAG made their decision to order the 787-10/A350-1000. When IAG decides to replace their 777 fleet, we might see the 777X back in contention again. But another split 787/A350 order will be more likely though.

Boeing had multiple 777X customer meetings in 2012, IAG knew the 777X was coming and could have waited. They clearly have another strategy than Lufthansa.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12041 posts, RR: 47
Reply 16, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4262 times:
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Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 15):
Boeing had multiple 777X customer meetings in 2012, IAG knew the 777X was coming and could have waited.

Indeed, back in March Walsh said “It looks like a perfect fit for some of what British Airways [BA] would require.” So to suggest BA knew nothing about it or didn't know it was coming is patently wrong.

Obviously, since he said that, BA has selected the A350-1000. I'm far from convinced they want to operate four long-haul types in the long run and will probably stick to 787-8,9 & 10. A350-1000 and A380.



Hey AA, the 1960s called. They want their planes back!
User currently offlinetortugamon From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 3211 posts, RR: 10
Reply 17, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4050 times:

BA seats 299 in many of their 744s. While the 787-10 (nominally 323 seats) will eventually have less seats in BA configuration it should all have ~35% in trip cost savings to make up for it.

I personally take WW on his word that the 777x will eventually be in BA's fleet. Not only would they get the extra rows of seats but they could also get the extra seat in J as well. If LHR does not get another runway its really hard to picture BA's fleet going from 55+ 744s to 12 A380s a decade later. I picture the A351s getting 292 4-class seats and will trounce the 744s in trip cost as well but I can't see them dropping capacity on most of their routes in an environment where adding frequency is not really an option.

tortugamon


User currently offlineparapente From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 1509 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (6 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 3556 times:

Thank you for reply 17 Tortugamon and indeed replies 16 and 15. But I remain totally confused as to what WW is doing.

A 787-10 is not a 744 replacement.Especially in the 4 class config of BA.It has not the capacity nor the range. The 787-10 was designed (even in Boeings own slide shows) as a 772(er'ish) - shorter range- replacement.
The A350-10 is not a 744 replacement either (again in BA config'). It is a 773er replacement.Thats what it is designed to do.

The 777-X9 IS a 744 replacement. - From a maketing POV it is a totally new aircraft as the fuse' is (effectively) new ie wider offering x10 across in' standard' boeing 17.5" seats. This aircraft can match capacity and range of a 744.

But this is the aircraft that he has NOT ordered!

As far as I can see he is predicting that BA will downsize in total volume but do so very profitable via a dramatic and massive reduction in fuel consumption. He has ordered the 2 'leanest' aircraft available - full stop.And appears to be fitting his marketing strategy around that fact rather than the reverse.
Is he bowing to the future realities of Dubai I wonder?


User currently offlinefrigatebird From Netherlands, joined Jun 2008, 1462 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (6 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 3414 times:

Quoting scbriml (Reply 16):
Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 15):Boeing had multiple 777X customer meetings in 2012, IAG knew the 777X was coming and could have waited.
Indeed, back in March Walsh said “It looks like a perfect fit for some of what British Airways [BA] would require.” So to suggest BA knew nothing about it or didn't know it was coming is patently wrong.

I don't think I came even close to implying such a thing  

Yes, BA could certainly have waited for Boeing to grant ATO for the 777X, but they decided otherwise. Maybe they got fed up waiting, maybe they needed a replacement for their 744s earlier, maybe BA didn't fancy the risk of being launch customer for the 777X, maybe Airbus gave them a 'now or never' offer, maybe WW sees BA future WB fleet in smaller aeroplanes... Who knows. But Boeing did grant ATO for the 777X not very long after BA's announcement, and I don't think these two things were totally unrelated  

Boeing was in time for LH, fortunately.



146,318/19/20/21,AB6,332,343,345,388,722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9,742,74E,744,752,762,763,772,77E,773,77W,AT3,ATP,E90,F50/70,M11,
User currently offlineSelseyBill From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2013, 118 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3234 times:

Quoting parapente (Reply 18):
A 787-10 is not a 744 replacement

Disagree.

For BA, B78J can and will replace B744 over certain sectors. I don't have an inside link to BA management, but to me its all about yield management.

If the seats you lose with downsizing from 744 to 78J are in WT at the back, on a given route you may actually only sell those seats three days a week. With using 78J or 35J, there's a better chance those flights will be full more days a week, and with other OW megahubs (JFK/ MAD/ HKG) to use, you will be able to sell those fares onto other 'bulk' routes rather than trying to fill a daily 744 with low fares.

ME3 carriers are undoubtedly a factor; (another thread this week was about EK selling A380 space cheap); but IMHO, BA are planning their future fleet carefully and smartly.


User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7258 posts, RR: 17
Reply 21, posted (6 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3033 times:

The perception that an airline needs to replace, for example, their 744s with aircraft of a similar carrying capacity is not always correct. For example for many years BA operated a large fleet of 747s supported by a smaller fleet of 763s on all its long-haul routes. But I doubt that every BA long-haul route ideally required either one of their 741s, a 742, a 744 or a 763. So it was hardly surprising that BA was a launch customer for the 772.

Another reason why direct replacements with a similar capacity are not always required is route development. BA set out down the 744 route in August 1986 placing an order for 16 with options on a further 12. Repeat orders were subsequently placed brining the number of 744s delivered to or under firm order to 66 with options held on a further seven. But in May and August 1998 BA cancelled orders for four and then five 744s. So their fleet of 744s increased to "only" 57 with a total of nine cancellations being replaced by the significantly smaller 772.

Finally there is the time interval. Is it really surprising that aircraft ordered today to "replace" aircraft ordered 27 years ago in August 1986 have a very different specification? Times do change, and some of the aircraft recently ordered will not be delivered for another ten years. That's more time and more change.


User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4593 posts, RR: 38
Reply 22, posted (6 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2932 times:
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Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 9):
Not yet, but IAG got green light to firm the orders, so perhaps in the next few weeks.

And the green light is all that counts.   So good news for Airbus and Boeing from IAG.


User currently offlinetortugamon From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 3211 posts, RR: 10
Reply 23, posted (6 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2823 times:

Quoting parapente (Reply 18):
The 787-10 was designed (even in Boeings own slide shows) as a 772(er'ish) - shorter range- replacement.

Right, it is being marketed as a 772/77E/A330/A343 replacement for shorter range routes.

Quoting parapente (Reply 18):
The A350-10 is not a 744 replacement either (again in BA config'). It is a 773er replacement.

Well the 77W replacement market has not started yet and won't start in earnest until well into next decade yet the A351 has sold well (in the last year and clearly are not replacing 77Ws). The 77W replaced more 747s than A380s did so if 77W are 744 replacements and A351s are 77W replacements, doesn't that mean that the A351 would make for a solid 744 replacement?

Quoting parapente (Reply 18):
A 787-10 is not a 744 replacement.

I mapped out a hypothetical BA 787-10 configuration keeping their 744 seat pitches/types identical. Currently they have (299=14F, 70J, 30W, 185Y). I can see a 781 being (256=12F, 49J, 32W, 163Y) or (257=8F, 56J, 39W, 154Y). Clearly it is a better 772 replacement than 744 but I could see it as an off season 744 replacement for sure. It will take 34t in larger aircraft weight (OEW) to carry those 42 passengers. I could also see a couple of their 7 747 daily flights LHR-NYC being replaced by a 787-10 here and there to adjust capacity as you don't need that large of an aircraft on every iteration of this 3,000nm route.

77Ws fit the same as 744s and A351s have same cabin length as 77Ws so other than in J the A351 should replace 744s very adequately while the A388 will give them a capacity bump. I don't see this as necessarily a drop in capacity.

It does not have to do with EK IMO. It has to do with flexibility. The A351 order allows them to have the next generation of aircraft ASAP (4 years earlier) and makes it so they don't have to be the 779 launch customer (as frigatebird mentions) while not precluding them from making a 779 purchase down the road. I think they wanted the A351 for these reasons and the size of the order indicated how much they wanted the 779. In my opinion they would have ordered more A351s if they didn't like the 779 or less A351s if they loved the A351. 18+18 tells me they like them plenty but there is still room and now they don't have a gun to their head with 744s needing to be replaced and a program that hasn't even launched. Very flexible and wise in my opinion.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 21):

The perception that an airline needs to replace, for example, their 744s with aircraft of a similar carrying capacity is not always correct.

Agreed.

tortugamon


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 29690 posts, RR: 84
Reply 24, posted (6 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2735 times:
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BA has 55 787-10, A350-1000, 777-300ER and A380-800 on order and/or in service, which could replace all 55 747-400.

The 777-300ER and A350-1000 match the total seat count of the High-J 747-400, though they do that with a 20% smaller Club World cabin and a ~50% larger World Traveller Plus cabin. Assuming the 787-10 follows a similar pattern, that would imply BA is predicting that they're going to see a shift in their premium cabin traffic from CW to WT+ (though no erosion in demand for FIRST, which is interesting) on a significant number of 747-400 routes. Which makes we feel that 12 may be all the A380-800s BA needs, as those routes require significant traffic growth in CW, WT+ and WT traffic to fill those frames.

On the flip side, if BA feels Club World traffic will hold steady, then the 777-9 should be able to fit another two rows of Club World compared to the 777-300ER and A350-1000, which would put it at 72 seats. Add in the extra 50% of WT+ seats and a 777-9 would significantly improves overall yields on high-J 747-400 routes (as it would have much lower trip and per seat costs).

So the 777-9 might not be out of the question for BA.


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 25, posted (6 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 2721 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 24):
So the 777-9 might not be out of the question for BA.

Of course not, the A351 and 779 are different enough to operate together. In the end, BA will have a gap between the A350-1000 and the A380 which can be nicely filled with the 777-9.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinetortugamon From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 3211 posts, RR: 10
Reply 26, posted (6 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2342 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 24):
BA has 55 787-10, A350-1000, 777-300ER and A380-800 on order and/or in service, which could replace all 55 747-400.

I could see the 787-10 and A351s being used to replace 744s in the near term and then transition to replace some of their 46 77Es routes beginning ~2022 which would give them the option to exercise A351/787-10 options or trade up to the 779 at that time as well.

Quoting parapente (Reply 18):
As far as I can see he is predicting that BA will downsize in total volume

Not only will the A380s take up volume and should open up slots for other large aircraft BA appears to be swapping their 763s for 789s. The order size is the same (21 vs 22) and 77Es won't need replacing for a number of years and 788s look like they are going to be used to try to establish new routes (AUS-LHR for example). That will be a singnificant upgrade in capacity.

tortugamon


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 8773 posts, RR: 29
Reply 27, posted (6 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1805 times:

The IAG order for 18 A350-1000 aircraft has been firmed.

http://www.airbus.com/company/market/orders-deliveries/

Quote:
Also included in new business activity is September’s second A350 XWB order from a European flagship carrier – British Airways, which contracted for 18 A350-1000s in a choice announced earlier this year by the U.K. operator and its International Airline Group parent company.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12325 posts, RR: 35
Reply 28, posted (6 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1720 times:

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 26):
Not only will the A380s take up volume and should open up slots for other large aircraft BA appears to be swapping their 763s for 789s. The order size is the same (21 vs 22) and 77Es won't need replacing for a number of years and 788s look like they are going to be used to try to establish new routes (AUS-LHR for example). That will be a singnificant upgrade in capacity.

The oldest 777s - the 'ZZZs will be 20 years in service in 2016 and by 2020, around 38 of the current BA 777 fleet will have reached 20 years, so it's not at all unreasonable to think about replacing them now. Added to the 55 744s already mentioned - and the 20-odd 763s and it's going to be a pretty large requirement, which I don't see the already ordered aircraft as coming close to filling.

Although I acknowledge that there may be concerns for BA having a four type long haul fleet, the airline's maintenance units and training facilities are already well used to the 777 and while there will obviously be some differences in the 779's cockpit and engines, I wouldn't see those changes being a major challenge for an airline like BA, which has such extensive experience with the type. The A350 will represent a far bigger challenge than the 779.


User currently offlineandy33 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2009, 108 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (6 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 1594 times:

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 26):
Not only will the A380s take up volume and should open up slots for other large aircraft BA appears to be swapping their 763s for 789s. The order size is the same (21 vs 22) and 77Es won't need replacing for a number of years and 788s look like they are going to be used to try to establish new routes (AUS-LHR for example). That will be a singnificant upgrade in capacity.

The 21 767s are in two very different configurations. 14 are long-haul and the original 787 order was meant to replace them. The other 7 are short-haul 2-class aircraft used on flights that require capacity beyond an A321 or have serious amounts of cargo. Precisely what replaces them is far from clear - what would a short-haul 789 look like internally?


User currently offlinetortugamon From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 3211 posts, RR: 10
Reply 30, posted (6 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1394 times:

Quoting kaitak (Reply 28):

I think more than a dozen of their 767s are already 20 years old. Not to mention the replacement plan for their 747s; BA seem to keep their aircraft well past 20 years because of their solid maintenance. Clearly the 772/77e replacements really have not been purchased in any remotely substantial quantity. If I were BA I would try to wait until A351 and 787-10 EIS so they know what they are getting.

Quoting andy33 (Reply 29):

I believe they have only ordered 8 787-8s so unless they order soon clearly some of these 763s are being scaled up to 787-9. It's hard to picture BA doing 2-class on 787-9 even if it is regional. This will be interesting to see what they decide.

tortugamon


User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7258 posts, RR: 17
Reply 31, posted (6 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1246 times:

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 30):
I think more than a dozen of their 767s are already 20 years old.

Yes. Thirteen, G-BNWA to 'WD, 'WH, 'WI, 'WM, 'WO, 'WR to 'WV are all past their 20th birthday. It's "happy twentieth" for 'WW and 'WX in the next few months. 'WY is over 17. 'WZ is over 16. G-BZHA to 'HC are all 15.

Five of the youngest six together with the two oldest BA 763s are currently configured for short-haul operations (C/Y 259). The remainder are long-haul configured (J24 / W24 / Y144). All the short-haul fleet (including the two "oldies" have had a cabin refresh recently (2012), This refresh included new slim-back Y Class seats, new overhead luggage bins, and new panelling throughout.
.


User currently offlineandy33 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2009, 108 posts, RR: 0
Reply 32, posted (6 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1219 times:

Yes, you're right. The 788s are meant to replace those long haul 763s which have not been refurbished, so the 763 fleet will start reducing soon. 7 long haul 763s did get a cabin refresh because of delivery delays and these are expected to gradually disappear during 2015 as the 789s arrive.

The 7 short-haul 763s also got a cabin refresh recently but there's no clear replacement path for them. They can be found on all sorts of flights ranging from LHR-EDI domestics which effectively are single class to the longest short haul routes like LHR-ATH and LHR-LCA which even these days run to hot meals in Y. They go anywhere that needs large passenger or cargo lift.


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