Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Is There Really Only One Canadair North Star?  
User currently offlinesteelhead From Canada, joined Nov 2005, 131 posts, RR: 0
Posted (11 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3342 times:

During my recent visit at the Canada Aviation & Space Museum in Ottawa I noticed this Canadair North Star stored outside the museum in a really sad condition:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/steelhead2010/sets/72157635766729723/

They said, that this is the only existing North Star in the world and that fund-raising has begun to restore the aircraft
- don't know if that means into flying condition.

Is there really only this example in existence worldwide?

15 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineFlaps From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 1269 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (11 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3255 times:

There weren't many built to begin with. Given the fact that it was very much a niche aircraft and pretty expensive to operate Im surprised (but quite pleased) that even that one remains. I would have loved to have heard one of these beasts on takeoff.

User currently offlineNorthStarDC4M From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 3012 posts, RR: 37
Reply 2, posted (11 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3214 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CHAT OPERATOR

There are a couple others in "existance" but they are not in any better shape... the one in Ottawa probably cannot be restored to a flyable condition due to corrosion issues, but it should be restored to museum display appearance... though my emails about what paint it will be in have gone unanswered... probably RCAF though  

sadly no commercial DC-4M-2/3 (sometimes called Mk 1) or 2/4s survive (sometimes called Mk 2), or any model C-4 (BOAC)...
Sadly the only DC-4M-1 crashed.



Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
User currently offlinesteelhead From Canada, joined Nov 2005, 131 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (11 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3063 times:

I can imagine the sound of 4 RR Merlins (have the AVRO Lancaster here in Hamilton (YHM) with similar engines). I hope they will put the old RCAF colours back on - this how this plane should look.

Thanks for the info NorthStarDC4M !


User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4930 posts, RR: 43
Reply 4, posted (11 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2973 times:

Quoting steelhead (Thread starter):
Is there really only this example in existence worldwide?

The only other one I know of, was the "Wings Cafe" at MEX. I used to do layovers there, and often looked for it. I have since learned it it burned down in 1999.

It was originally a DC-4M2/4, CF-TFG, of TCA.

The one at Rockliffe is a C-54GM. (The M of the designators, indicating the Merlin engines).

Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 2):
Sadly the only DC-4M-1 crashed.

There were six DC-4M1s. They were the first built for TCA, on loan, then returned to the RCAF after TCA's DC-4M2s started to arrive. One DC-4M1 was lost while operating for TCA, at YQY.

The DC-4M1s were virtually identical to the C-54GMs, in that they were unpressurised like a Douglas DC-4, with the same cabin layout/doors.

TCA's DC-4M2s were either /3s or /4s. The /4s had three bladed props and were virtually identical to the C-4s of BA and CP. They were slightly heavier than the four bladed /3s. All the DC-4M2s and C-4s were pressurized

Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 2):
model C-4 (BOAC)...

CP also operated the C-4, lost one, and the rest were sold to TCA. So TCA operated the DC-4M1, DC-4M2/3, DC-4M2/4 and C-4-1.

Quoting Flaps (Reply 1):
There weren't many built to begin with. Given the fact that it was very much a niche aircraft and pretty expensive to operate Im surprised (but quite pleased) that even that one remains.

The aircraft was built by Canadair under licence from Douglas. As it was being built the same time as the DC-6, Douglas feared competition against their DC-6 so a restriction was placed on the licence that Canadair could only sell the DC-4M to Commonwealth countries. Hence, it was only sold to Trans-Canada, Canadian Pacific and BOAC.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlinecf6ppe From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 351 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (11 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2510 times:

In the 1970's we lived in the MIA area and were frequent visitors to the parking area along 36th Street adjacent to the Immigration and Customs arrival area for the cargo birds. Their was a NorthStar that frequented MIA as an outbound/inbound USA transit point. I had a small Radio Shack radio with an aircraft band and would try to listen to ground frequencies - they seemed more interesting at the time. One visit we heard the NorthStar crew talking to the tower controller who wanted to know what it was like to fly a NorthStar. The NorthStar pilot replied that it was like flying four P51 Mustangs in a very tight formation. This particular NorthStar operated under the name of Air Caicos. At other times, listening I found out that they hauled building materials from the USA to the Turks and Caicos Islands which are south east of MIA.

The first time I saw the NorthStar (thinking that it was a radial engine powered DC4), it was parked so you were looking at the rear of the aircraft. I saw the crew board using their extension ladder, but when the engines were started that it didn't have the PWA R2000's. The Merlin's started quickly as opposed to the laborious start of the radials.


User currently offlineDTWPurserBoy From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 1619 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (11 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2354 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 4):
The only other one I know of, was the "Wings Cafe" at MEX. I used to do layovers there, and often looked for it. I have since learned it it burned down in 1999.

When I laid over in MEX during the late 70's and early 80's we had short layovers within walking distance of the Wings Café. I know I took pictures of it because at the time I did not know enough about the Northstar--I took it to be a DC-4 with very odd engines. I also remember that it was a "greasy spoon" kind of place and that I would not want to eat there. There were vents and chimneys cut into the roof and out of the emergency exits.

Still, it is sad that it was lost to fire. On landing I would always try to catch a glimpse of it before I ran for my jumpseat.



Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25170 posts, RR: 22
Reply 7, posted (11 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2316 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 4):
Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 2):model C-4 (BOAC)...
CP also operated the C-4, lost one, and the rest were sold to TCA. So TCA operated the DC-4M1, DC-4M2/3, DC-4M2/4 and C-4-1.

After TCA acquired CP's 3 surviving C-4-1s I can't recall TCA continuing to refer to them as C-4-1. They had a different rear cabin layout with 5 windows behind the door (like those operated by BOAC) rather than 4 windows like those delivered to TCA.

One of the ex-CP aircraft was written off in a mid-air collision with an RCAF Harvard trainer over Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan in 1954, killing all 35 aboard plus one person in a house that was struck by the wreckage.

I think one or perhaps both of the remaining ex-CP aircraft were converted to freighters during their last few years of TCA service. They could only handle cargo that could be loaded through the passenger door as there was no main deck cargo door.

[Edited 2013-09-29 07:03:25]

User currently offlinejetstar From United States of America, joined May 2003, 1645 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (11 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2281 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

In the early 1970’s I used to fly to SRQ quite often and across the field from the terminal there was a company that used to modify, restore and maintain P-51’s, I believe the company’s name was Cavalier.

Outside their hangar was a few C-51M’s airframes stripped of their engines and I was told they bought up these airplanes just for their engines. I would assume these airframes were eventually scrapped at SRQ because they were built to use the Merlin engines and could not be modified back to the radial engines versions.

JetStar


User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4930 posts, RR: 43
Reply 9, posted (11 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2211 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 7):
After TCA acquired CP's 3 surviving C-4-1s I can't recall TCA continuing to refer to them as C-4-1.

Not publicly, no. They were always referred as Canadair North Star Skyliners. Internally though, they kept the C4-1 designation as performance was slightly different. There were always two columns M2-3, and M2-4 + C4-1.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 7):
They had a different rear cabin layout with 5 windows behind the door (like those operated by BOAC) rather than 4 windows like those delivered to TCA.

This is an interesting point, as the fifth window would have been in the rear of the cabin, where TCA had lavatories. TCA's did have a smaller window, but it was higher up and placed in the lav.

I have never been able to find an external picture of an ex-CP C-4 in TCA colours, as I wondered how that fifth window was "handled". Looking at my Dad's North Star Pilot Operating Manual dated November 1960, it shows the cabin layouts, of various passenger configurations .... all with rear lavs. So whatever CP had back there was removed and lavs placed instead.

That was further confirmed when I found an interior picture of CF-TFU (ex CP), that had encountered turbulence. Among the mess in the cabin, one could see the rear lavs. Maybe they had a huge full sized window in the lav!!!



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25170 posts, RR: 22
Reply 10, posted (11 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2164 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 9):
I have never been able to find an external picture of an ex-CP C-4 in TCA colours,

Here's one. CF-TFU at YWG.

http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001-FREZ4D__YThVPmq4mIAsKXw49YR8LYAogJGaqaSBmzsbqX1pH_hCLahBnY_ESyelZd7zwtD_6SCkHAjZR9FuflPCx6RtpnFJ3eYiMcMdCPVU9clelNFbEHBulebj2BG8V3R9hHh7khge-NTBwgAVlMS17CYzjSv8c-5-MjLDbM=

At CP it was CF-CPI, named "Empress of Sydney". That aircraft had a notable place in CP history as it operated CP's first international flight in July 1949, routing Vancouver-San Francisco (fuel stop, no traffic rights)-Honolulu-Canton Island (fuel stop)-Nandi-Auckland-Sydney, with 2 overnight stops at Honolulu and Nandi (hotel and meals included in the fare).

The same aircraft below at SYD on July 15, 1949, prior to the return flight of the inaugural.

http://www.acfamily.net/photopost/data/504/9cpa-canadair-four-aussie.jpg

[Edited 2013-09-29 08:12:56]

User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4930 posts, RR: 43
Reply 11, posted (11 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2121 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 10):
Here's one. CF-TFU at YWG.

That's great, thanks.
Man, that is one big ass window in the aft lav!



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlinearrow From Canada, joined Jun 2002, 2676 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (11 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2119 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Fascinating discussion, people -- thanks for all the info. As a kid (think I was maybe 8-9 at the time) I flew on a TCA North Star from New York to Toronto. I do remember the unbelievable racket it made -- and I suspect this bird maybe had the crossover exhaust system installed. My father was an engineer whose years at Rolls Royce during the war involved quite a bit of work on installing Merlins in various aircraft (he was involved in the P-51 installation project).

Fascinating aircraft -- another example of Canada's (then) unique ability to take an existing design and modify it for better performance. Probably the best example of that was the Canadair Sabre. On the North Star, too bad they couldn't modify the noise level much.



Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4930 posts, RR: 43
Reply 13, posted (11 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1974 times:

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 6):
I took it to be a DC-4 with very odd engines.

It's funny that you thought it was a DC-4, as with the square windows and mid cabin entry door, most thought it was a DC-6. (with odd engines). It was however, smaller than a DC-6, but without a size comparison it would be hard to tell.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Augusto Gomez Rojas



The DC-4M1 though, was often mistaken for a DC-4, as it had round windows and rear entry door.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © RAScholefield Collection




Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineDTWPurserBoy From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 1619 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (11 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1899 times:

I recall seeing some airlines trying to fudge a DC-4 as a DC-6 by painting squares around the round windows.

Still, it is a shame to see such an historic aircraft destroyed by fire. She deserved better.



Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
User currently offlineNorthStarDC4M From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 3012 posts, RR: 37
Reply 15, posted (11 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1604 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CHAT OPERATOR

[quote OR longhauler,reply OR 4]There were six DC-4M1s. They were the first built for TCA, on loan, then returned to the RCAF after TCA's DC-4M2s started to arrive. One DC-4M1 was lost while operating for TCA, at YQY.[/quote]

Ok, the one at YQY was the crash i was speaking of, and I now see what i got wrong...

I think I got it maybe below... I'm still finding yet more model numbers?:

CL-2-1X OR CL-4-1X OR DC-4M-1X, Prototype - i incorrectly though this was the only DC-4M-1 qty 1

CL-2-1 OR DC-4M-1 OR DC-4M Mk2, 3 blade props, round windows, short fuselage, TCA DC-4M-2-3 "North Star Skyliner", conv to C-54GM to RCAF qty 6


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © RAScholefield Collection



CL-2-2 OR CL-4-1? OR DC-4M-2/3 OR DC-4M OR DC-4M Mk2, 3 blade prop, Merlin 622, square windows, longer fuselage, etc TCA DC-4M-2-3 "North Star Skyliner" qty 10?

CL-2-3 OR CL-4-2? OR DC-4M-2/4 OR DC-4M-2 OR DC-4M Mk3, 4 blade prop, Merlin 624, square windows, longer fuselage, etc, TCA DC-4M-2-4 "North Star Skyliner Mk2" qty 10? some converted to cargo DC-4M-2-4C


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © RAScholefield Collection



CL-4-1A? OR C-4-1, for CPA, pretty much same as BOAC C-4, similar to CL-4-1 w/Merlin 624?, "Canadair Four" qty 4


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © RAScholefield Collection



CL-4-1B? or CL-4-B? or CL-4? OR C-4 OR C.4, BOAC C.4 "Argonaut", again similar to CL-4-1 w/Merlin 624? qty 22


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Nicholas Denbow
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © RAScholefield Collection



CL-2? OR C-54GMC-54G/M?, RCAF qty 17+5 conv DC-4M-1


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Frank Croom



CL-4-5 OR C-5 OR RCAF qty 1, non-merlin

There's also CL-4-M1 floating around some lists , but I can't verify that one, seems to be another C-54GM designation?

Canadair Four was seemingly the common name after resale Derby, Overseas, etc even though most of them were previously Argonauts or North Stars.



Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
New LAX Star Alliance Lounge (pics) posted Mon Sep 23 2013 21:30:27 by LAXintl
North Korea Aviation Update posted Mon Sep 23 2013 02:58:44 by cedarjet
MIA North Terminal Development posted Tue Sep 17 2013 07:10:37 by arielwar
Star Alliance Lounges At New LHR Terminal 2 posted Mon Sep 16 2013 03:12:55 by thegivenone
When Would LAN Move To North T At MIA? posted Thu Aug 29 2013 19:36:07 by eastern023
UTAir And Transaero In Star Alliance Talks? posted Tue Aug 27 2013 09:39:42 by OlafW
Coach Fire At Gatwick North Terminal posted Fri Aug 9 2013 08:04:42 by ThomasCook
Article: Tracking North Korean Aircraft posted Fri Aug 9 2013 07:17:16 by NoUFO
US Will Leave Star Alliance In Early 2014 posted Thu Aug 1 2013 04:50:13 by Trijetsonly
Canadian North B737-275C C-GFPW (552) Retired 7/14 posted Fri Jul 19 2013 18:52:34 by braynfeeble