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Frontier Sale Talks Stall - Monday Deadline  
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24707 posts, RR: 46
Posted (9 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 19469 times:

With the already once extended deadline looming on Monday, WSJ says negotiations for the sale of Frontier Airlines by Indigo Partners has stalled.

According to reports, Indigo is not expected to reach a deal by Monday with negotiations with the pilots union being a central sticking point.


Let see what happens now. Suppose parties can extend the deadline yet further, or RAH pursue some plan B...


Frontier Airlines Sale Talks Falter
http://goo.gl/iNuhWz

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[Edited 2013-09-27 17:19:17]


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
204 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2732 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (9 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 19149 times:

Since this is only a subscription link above to the story, I'm unable to access it

That being said, and assuming the standard fare reporting and discounting some shocking revelation in it..... well.... the pilots and others have to get what their agreement stated, and that is a percentage of the airline upon sale, and the sale is up to Brian Bedford to be made.

If Indigo walks, BB still has to find a buyer, or figure out a way to get the pilots and others what is due to them.

 


User currently offlinerj777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1772 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (9 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 18937 times:

I have a feeling that there was something in the deal that the pilots union didn't like!

User currently offlineJamake1 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1004 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (9 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 18873 times:

Quoting rj777 (Reply 3):
I have a feeling that there was something in the deal that the pilots union didn't like!

Indeed. Indigo Partners reportedly wants Frontier employees to give up their right to an equity stake (due them) in the event that Frontier is sold. The equity stake was made in exchange for wage and benefit concessions.



United's B747-400. "She's a a cruel lover."
User currently offlineJerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1945 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (9 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 18753 times:
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Quoting point2point (Reply 1):
If Indigo walks, BB still has to find a buyer, or figure out a way to get the pilots and others what is due to them.

They may be playing with fire, "What is due them" could end up not being what they had hoped for.



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently onlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12773 posts, RR: 100
Reply 5, posted (9 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 18727 times:
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Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
According to reports, Indigo is not expected to reach a deal by Monday with negotiations with the pilots union being a central sticking point.

Is it the equity stake? That might make the purchase price too high for this investor considering after F9 is purchased quite a bit of money must be put into the company to make it viable (e.g., new seats to go ULCC).

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
or RAH pursue some plan B...

How much longer can they run F9 while finding a 'plan B?' At least per the link I found, it looks like Republic can take a bunch of the F9 related debt and package it with a 'spun off F9.'

Quoting point2point (Reply 1):
If Indigo walks, BB still has to find a buyer, or figure out a way to get the pilots and others what is due to them.

Actually, there isn't going to be much 'due to them.'
Republic can fall back to the spin-off plan if the Frontier sale can't be completed. As part of the spin-off, Republic could probably move some of its corporate debt onto Frontier's balance sheet, thereby reducing its interest costs and improving its credit profile.
http://www.fool.com/investing/genera...trating-airline-for-investors.aspx


At some point, its simply not worth it for an investor to deal with all the unions. It is but a matter of projected return on investment. If the ROI is too low, the investors will pursue another deal in another industry. Cest la vie. F9 would then be spun of from Republic with all the debt it is due and then the independent airline would 'sink or swim' on its own merits.

I hope the deal goes through. IMHO, it is the only long term solution for F9.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7111 posts, RR: 13
Reply 7, posted (9 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 18542 times:

Will it result in imminent bankruptcy?? I don't know much about F9, I just know that I have flights booked in a fortnight that I don't want to lose.

User currently offlineJerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1945 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (9 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 18376 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 8):
Will it result in imminent bankruptcy?? I don't know much about F9, I just know that I have flights booked in a fortnight that I don't want to lose.

I doubt you have anything to worry about.



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineawacsooner From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 1878 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (9 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 18202 times:

Monday morning quarterbacking, they should have sold to WN...

User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2732 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (9 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 18105 times:

Quoting Jerseyguy (Reply 5):
They may be playing with fire, "What is due them" could end up not being what they had hoped for.

IIRC, what is due the pilots/others by contract is separation of majority ownership of F9 by RAH, and that the pilots/others with get stock ownership/equity of a new F9.

Quoting Jerseyguy (Reply 7):
Another possible reason is that there is apparantly a dispute or lawsuit over whether it was legal for the concessions to take place in the first place.

From my understanding, what would this have to do with ownership? It would be pilots union suing pilots union.... something akin, but not quite, what has been going on at US. If Indigo is trying to use this...... shame.......

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 6):
At some point, its simply not worth it for an investor to deal with all the unions. It is but a matter of projected return on investment. If the ROI is too low, the investors will pursue another deal in another industry. Cest la vie. F9 would then be spun of from Republic with all the debt it is due and then the independent airline would 'sink or swim' on its own merits.
Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 8):
Will it result in imminent bankruptcy??

So long as F9 is pulling in 2 cents more in revenue than it does in expenses, it will not shut down.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 6):
How much longer can they run F9 while finding a 'plan B?

It doesn't matter who or how, but it is the good faith contractual commitment of BB/RAH to get a separation done, and equities to contracted parties. And see comment above

Quoting awacsooner (Reply 10):

Monday morning quarterbacking, they should have sold to WN...

Uh huh.... and the pilots right now be sitting on their couches for the last two years without a job........

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 6):
Republic can fall back to the spin-off plan if the Frontier sale can't be completed. As part of the spin-off, Republic could probably move some of its corporate debt onto Frontier's balance sheet, thereby reducing its interest costs and improving its credit profile.
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 6):
with all the debt it is due and then the independent airline would 'sink or swim' on its own merits.

Oh lordie...... and how rich would this make how many attorneys? Again, IIRC, the acquisition of YX caused all the debt for RAH, wouldn't that be correct?

 





[Edited 2013-09-28 01:05:44]

User currently offlinewhereitswarm From United States of America, joined May 2013, 15 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (9 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 17046 times:

I am part of an investment group (kind of like Indigo, but much smaller) that is involved in the possible sales transaction of Frontier Airlines. (Coincidentally, I am also a pilot at Frontier) To date, my group has invested over 25 million dollars in the future of Frontier to grow it and make it more valuable and profitable. Indigo will also be investing money in Frontier, to help it grow and prosper and make it more valuable - just like my investment group did.

So years from now, do you think Indigo would give up their equity stake - for nothing - when ownership changes hands again?

Then why should my investment group be expected to do just that?

I have yet to hear anyone give me a good reason as to why we should just give up that 25 million dollar investment for little to nothing in return.

Would you?

Quoting awacsooner (Reply 10):

Monday morning quarterbacking, they should have sold to WN...


Being an Air Wisky guy, and a Sooner fan, both make me want to like you. But then you keep saying this (over and over) and completely ruin it.  . That particular Monday morning was over four years ago.


User currently offlineCarsAir04 From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 162 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (9 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 17002 times:

Quoting whereitswarm (Reply 12):
I have yet to hear anyone give me a good reason as to why we should just give up that 25 million dollar investment for little to nothing in return.

Would you?

No, and what sucks to see and hear from friends is that CEO's and the like are trying to pin the non-union people against you by saying, look, if the pilots don't do this, you will not get a raise and a bonus, but if they do, you will get on. But I was there when that stuff was promised before and never happened. I want to see Frontier continue and I am sure it will, but the pilots gave up a lot and I am glad to hear they are sticking to their claim.


User currently offlinewhereitswarm From United States of America, joined May 2013, 15 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (9 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 16942 times:

Thanks Cars. Luckily, a lot of the non union employees get it too. Just like those employee groups thanked us and stood behind us for what they thought was 'our part' in turning down that immortal Southwest offer, they also seem to be standing behind us now, and not falling for the woefully obvious management tactics.

User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11383 posts, RR: 62
Reply 14, posted (9 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 16851 times:

Quoting awacsooner (Reply 10):
Monday morning quarterbacking, they should have sold to WN...

I just do not see a future for Frontier as an independent company.

The network strategy seems to change frequently, the product offering seems inconsistent with market realities, and the employees that are left are apparently - as already mentioned here - quite dissatisfied with the present course (understandably so).

Frontier is by far the weakest player in the 3-carrier slug fest in its home market of Denver, and I do not think it's present model - there or in general - is sustainable. I think Frontier's best option at this point is the full (not hybrid, kind-of-sort-of) adoption of the ULCC model. This will bring substantial changes and a fundamental realignment of the network, as fares in Denver are already so low that the typical Spirit low fare market stimulation is likely to have less impact there.

Perhaps a merger with Spirit would make sense. It would involve combining two very similar fleets and create a more balanced and comprehensive network - if you overlay the two route maps, you have a fairly impressive route system spanning virtually all the major leisure markets in North and northern Latin America.

One way or another, I think ULCC is the only plausible long-term scenario for Frontier.


User currently offlinejfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3354 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (9 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 16773 times:

Quoting point2point (Reply 11):
Uh huh.... and the pilots right now be sitting on their couches for the last two years without a job........

Please explain that. They later brought AirTran and not ONE guy was thrown to the street.

As a pilot, WN is the most stable airline you can work for. Forget about Captain and First Officer, most of the AirTran guys got thrown to FO...and they still netted more take home pay.

Stupid move by F9. That's not Monday Morning Quarterbacking...I said it was stupid then so did 90% or a.netters.
Who sells themselves to a regional and expects good results?


User currently offlinewhereitswarm From United States of America, joined May 2013, 15 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (9 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 16666 times:

I think the AirTran deal absolutely proved that Frontier pilots were correct in turning down a seniority list stapling to the bottom. If we had accepted that, it would have set the absolute worst precedent imaginable for pilots in this industry - namely that a pilots worth in a merger/acquisition is determined by nothing more than the financial predicament that the management or other forces (credit card company) have put their employiing airline in.

If Southwest had offered an integration similar to what the AirTran guys got, we might not be having this discussion (why are we having this discussion again?). But if you live by that sword, be prepared to die by it. If someday, the financial fortunes of Southwest take a turn for the worst, then your place in a possible acquisition won't be relative seniority, or date of hire, right? If you're bankrupt at the time, will you gratefully accept a staple from whomever comes calling?


User currently onlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7112 posts, RR: 17
Reply 17, posted (9 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 16633 times:

Ok I'm not a frontier expert like mariner, but I gotta wonder....what's stopping F9 from standing alone again?


One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlineflyby519 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 1113 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (9 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 16492 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 18):

Ok I'm not a frontier expert like mariner, but I gotta wonder....what's stopping F9 from standing alone again?

They don't have a leg to stand on. They are a 3rd place (out of 3) carrier in their home base of DEN.



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User currently offlinekingcavalier From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 1302 posts, RR: 18
Reply 19, posted (9 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 16193 times:

There is more to F9 than just DEN. Just look at how the route map has changed. TTN & ILG show the changing business model. Apple Vacations anyone? I don't understand the continued obsession with many on here regarding the so called 3-way battle in DEN. F9 has and continues to adapt its route map in DEN. It is finding its niche with markets like SBA, DRO, PSP, PHF, BKG, EUG, GTF, BZN, FAR, MOT, CID, BMI, GSO, MDT, ILG & FSD. And not to forget DEN-CVG which has been gangbusters. I doubt F9 would be here today if it hadn't adapted to changing business models and continued to fly to markets like BOI and compete with UA & WN. Those markets are too small for 3 carriers.

Why can't F9 stand on its own? I guess it could but as Bedford said Republic isn't taking it to the next level. It needs a boost of capital to buy the NEOs, to invest in new slimline seats, etc. F9 is making money but it needs to make more money so it can bank a big cushion of money. It needs to complete its transition to a full fledged ULCC to start making good money. It will be difficult to get to that next level on its own. Spirit was at this crossroad not so long ago before Indigo took it to the next level.

I believe the Indigo deal will go through. They could of course walk but I believe Franke is ready to put another feather is in his hat and recreate another Spirit. He obviously likes the potential he sees in F9. If he didn't why would he bother? Guys like Franke are only in it for the money.

I believe there is a future for F9 as long as it is a ULCC. Should Spirit be the only ULCC? G4 is a different model so NK is really the only other comparison. Look at Spirit's route map and schedule frequency to get a good idea of what a future F9 route map might look like.



Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness
User currently offlineawacsooner From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 1878 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (9 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 16157 times:

Quoting point2point (Reply 10):
Uh huh.... and the pilots right now be sitting on their couches for the last two years without a job........

Right...you mean the same WN that hasn't had a layoff in how long? The same WN that publicly came out and said they would find a place for ALL F9 employees in their organization that wanted to remain?


User currently offlinegustywinds From Armenia, joined Feb 2012, 140 posts, RR: 12
Reply 21, posted (9 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 16127 times:

Who cares if F9 is 3rd place in its hometown? They wouldn't be in any place if they cared about things like that because they would already be out of business. It's just people on here who care about winners and losers. If UA is in 1st place in market share in DEN then WN lost because it isn't?

I doubt the future F9 will be the biggest carrier in any market it serves except for places like TTN, and that doesn't bother me one bit!


User currently offlinegustywinds From Armenia, joined Feb 2012, 140 posts, RR: 12
Reply 22, posted (9 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 16084 times:

Awacsooner - that simply isn't true. WN never said ALL F9 employees would have jobs. They said some employees and those would have to reapply for any open position at WN.

User currently offlinewhereitswarm From United States of America, joined May 2013, 15 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (9 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 16050 times:

Quoting awacsooner (Reply 20):
The same WN that publicly came out and said they would find a place for ALL F9 employees in their organization that wanted to remain?

I remember something like that, but I don't think it was worded quite that way. Do you have the source for that public statement? I am willing to concede that I am remembering it wrong if that is the case.


User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11383 posts, RR: 62
Reply 24, posted (9 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 16051 times:

Quoting gustywinds (Reply 21):
Who cares if F9 is 3rd place in its hometown?

The fact that they're in third place in a three-competitor race is important for other reasons. Namely - the DEN market is not nearly large enough to support that much capacity, and I - along with many others - continue to expert the market to rationalize at some point. And when it does, I do not think it will be UA or WN - both better-capitalized, with far larger networks, that are likely to lose. UA can draw upon their global network, premium amenities, and most of all connectivity to small regional markets, while WN can offer its low fares and comprehensive frequencies across the entire U.S. F9 can match neither, which is a critical problem.

Quoting gustywinds (Reply 21):
They wouldn't be in any place if they cared about things like that because they would already be out of business. It's just people on here who care about winners and losers.

This isn't about "winners and losers" in terms of market share. It's about "winners and losers" in general, of which market share is but one indicator of larger trends. And those trends do not appear - at least to me - to be going in F9's favor.

Quoting gustywinds (Reply 21):
If UA is in 1st place in market share in DEN then WN lost because it isn't?

Nobody is saying that. This isn't as simplistic as "F9 isn't #1 so they're a failure." For the reasons mentioned above, F9 being up against two far stronger competitors in its largest and most important market is a big strategic problem.


25 CarsAir04 : yes, but in any merger, in any type of business there will be casualties. It is hard to say what would have happened, even you could not know for sur
26 gustywinds : Still don't by the market share argument. Just because F9 is third place in DEN doesn't mean it isn't viable. Why does F9 only have to be DEN? Why can
27 CarsAir04 : exactly they way it was put.
28 ERJ170 : Hmmm.. Just a shot in the dark and it may be totally crazy, but does the purchase of Frontier by Air Wisconsin sound like a good idea? They are heavil
29 MIflyer12 : Being a big fish in a few very small ponds isn't enough. The domestic air market shows successes broadly with three strategies: 1. Be a nationwide &a
30 flyby519 : Isn't that exactly what Republic did?
31 sunking737 : Hey King looks like no one wants to listen to you about F9. Guys their is way more to F9 then DEN. You need to look at the big picture. A fleet of 53
32 Post contains images point2point : Oh good heavens...... F9 was in BK, remember? F9 employees had no leverage the way that employees of FL did. Then, WN wanted ATL with FL..... as F9 a
33 Post contains images mariner : I'm not sure what that has to do with it. Airport market share is meaningless in terms of profit - Frontier was making good money when it had less th
34 Post contains images lightsaber : Agreed. But where are they going to get the funds to adapt to WN's future growth at DEN? Is that the best deal for labor? I think otherwise. And they
35 Post contains images point2point : You think that this won't matter to the F9 pilots? Where have you been living? If RAH tries to stick their corporate debt onto a spun-off F9, one had
36 awacsooner : And you're not telling the entire story...because WN said they would have jobs for everyone who wanted to jump on board...albeit not necessarily in t
37 CarsAir04 : that is not fact... I worked at F9 when WN was bidding and it was stated that you would have to apply for any open positions, that you would just not
38 Post contains images point2point : The pilots/employees need to go about their jobs, doing as best they can to make sure that F9 is the carrier that would be the first choice of air pa
39 VictorKilo : Perhaps the issue isn't as philosophical as that and just comes down to dollars. Indigo offers X. BB wants X. But the pilots get $25 million in a sal
40 mariner : I'm still struggling because - as I understand it - it's a paper deal for the pilots, no actual money changes hands. Unless it is an unusually struct
41 kingcavalier : If BB had invested the resources into a ULCC F9 back when they acquired the carrier we would probably be talking about an IPO right about now instead
42 jerseyguy : I agree KC, capital is needed to really run the airline in the fashion it needs to be. They need lighter seats, they need to get rid of the LIVETV (I
43 Post contains links gustywinds : Agree JerseyGuy awacsooner - I've seen another Q&A but this is some of the first communication WN put out regarding their bid for F9. Mariner can
44 Post contains images lightsaber : It will matter. But the analysis I've read, while limited in scope, imply that if F9 is spun off, it will be with the debt and there isn't much that
45 Post contains links gustywinds : This is the best link to illustrate the uncertainty of the F9 employees during WN's failed bid attempt. http://www.blogsouthwest.com/news/li...iscuss-
46 F9animal : I can't blame the pilots one bit for standing their ground. If Indigo is that hell bent on screwing over the pilots, it just shows how much vision the
47 capejet : So I guess the way it works is pilots go to work for the Ultra Low Cost Carrier and work longer hours at lower pay rates, so the ULCC can then have $9
48 VS11 : The F9 story is certainly fascinating - somehow the WSJ article is open through a google search and the key points in it are : 1. "In 2011, Frontier a
49 jerseyguy : how many pilot/FAs does Frontier have? 200. Hoping its more towards $50 million lets say $35M, Republic pays each pilot $100K and each FA $60K they s
50 VS11 : I doubt it is so simple. We don't know what the equity deal was - it must have been more appealing than the $7.2m in cash offered. No idea if it was
51 sunking737 : Don't be surprised in BB & Co drop all their debt on F9 and F9 file Chap 11 again. Indigo could buy F9 with a debtor financing loan. Shareholders
52 enilria : Well they should not have made a deal they did not intend to honor. Having said that, the pilots have little choice...as usual. I said that this was
53 planesntrains : 1. It's only a "scare tactic" if it's not based on reality. F9 is in a tough spot with few options. 2. It's irrelevent (IMHO) that F9 is a good airli
54 Post contains links mariner : I don't know who "everybody" is. Most on a.net believed the sale to Southwest would go through and thought it a good thing. I made myself extremely u
55 enilria : I was vilified and virtually alone. Everybody was sold a bill of goods that BB was offering employment guarantees (which he never did) while WN was p
56 Post contains images point2point : Is it possible here to say that it was the YX venture, rather than the F9 venture that caused the squandering of many millions of dollars spent and p
57 VS11 : No offense but that could hardly be true. Anyone can promise nothing. You cannot fault RAH for trying various ways to make F9 a profitable stand-alon
58 rj777 : Well, unless they can pull off an 11th hour miracle, I'd say the deal is off.
59 planesntrains : I think it's all part of the bigger effort at taking on mainline flying. F9. YX. It's all the same umbrella of failure I'd imagine. Money. RAH has dr
60 Post contains links mariner : Republic has adopted the ULCC policy for Frontier already. This article is from January 2012, when the process had been underway for some time: http:
61 jerseyguy : So what is the date for the uninstalling of the LiveTV and installing more fuel effecient seats?
62 mariner : I've no idea. I assume that some of it at least depends on the outcome tomorrow and the implications of that. As it presently stands, I believe N220F
63 jerseyguy : I sincerely hope there is a plan B because PLAN A doesn't look to be working out.
64 LAXintl : Well any Plan B probably be dependent on how long RAH is willing to fund F9. From the sounds of the marching orders Bryan Bedford has received from th
65 SLCPilot : So? Could tomorrow end F9 operations? My take? BB bought in a an anticipation of another UA bankruptcy and thought he would step into a void and have
66 Post contains images point2point : No. Good question.......
67 PHX787 : Well today's the day.....any improvements?
68 MIflyer12 : Check back at the end of the business day in IND.
69 enilria : Short-term/long-term...F9 laid off virtually every employee outside Denver. I'm not sure that was keeping as many employees as possible. It is follow
70 CarsAir04 : Some of the things I have seen, it is sad to see some of the pitting the pilots against the non-union employees. If you give this up, we will give th
71 Post contains images PHX787 : So that's probably about 5-6 hours from now.....jeez. I'll be sound asleep.... here's a (half-joking) thought- mariner seems to be the guy to go to f
72 rj777 : And another (half-joking) funny thing, he's from New Zealand! Wonder how he knows all this stuff!
73 enilria : Oh it's crazy to negotiate a deal to give up equity, see the value of the company increase (financial performance is better now than then) and then d
74 Post contains links GentFromAlaska : I wouldn't call a route(s) addition or deletion a biz model change. The change from a LCC to ULCC meets the mode criteria. If you are saying they wou
75 mariner : Not quite. The BOD was ready to see the back of Midwest/Frontier at the end of 2010, but BB (and others, including Siegel) were able to persuade them
76 airfrnt : This is a bigger deal then people have been acknowledging.My suspicion is that a good chunk of what is going on right now is yet another turf war bet
77 airfrnt : From the Denver Post this morning: But the heart of the issue — and the lawsuit — comes down to a representational dispute that goes back to 2011
78 JA : I am not sure why Indigo needs the pilots and flight attendants to give up their stake. I wouldn't do that. Frankly, I don't think Frontier needs any
79 CarsAir04 : Well they must be talking into the evening. I haven't heard a word from friends at Frontier, or seen anything come out quite yet.
80 enilria : As I said above there are two or three reasons. First, they simply don't want to have to tell the pilots everything they are doing since they will be
81 VS11 : IPOs are much more controlled processes, and usually there is a period after the IPO during which inside parties can't sell so that can't be really a
82 Post contains links LAXintl : Looks like they reached a deal per WSJ Indigo to Acquire Frontier Airlines http://goo.gl/F6V9xi Announcement on Tuesday. Largely non cash-deal with In
83 jerseyguy : I don't want to take this as gospel but it appears that they will reduce seat pitch and go full Spirit (not that Frontiers current configuration is a
84 F9animal : Denver is going to be dismatled. Thousands more jobs will be lost.
85 mariner : In the version I read, it wasn't Indigo or Franke that spoke about Denver, it was an analyst giving her opinion. mariner
86 planesntrains : Perhaps. However, Indigo isn't buying Frontier to shut them down. They will want those employees, even if they aren't in DEN. I'm guessing that most
87 mariner : I think a few people might be jumping the gun. In Daniel Shurz's letter to the staff today, he said they are rearranging the GO - at Denver - to acco
88 slcdeltarumd11 : They will certainly shrink Denver and seek more point to point flying.
89 airliner371 : I have to say, I am very excited to see what happens. They will want employees but even more will probably be outsourced.
90 jfklganyc : Like looking at a building on fire from a sfae distance huh? I bet pilots at F9 aren'y gee golly "very excited" this morning.
91 Post contains links queb : "...transaction valued at approximately $145 million, of which $36 million (subject to certain adjustments under the purchase agreement) is to be paid
92 freakyrat : Quoting JA Reply 78 "Personally, I would position Frontier as the "flexible" ULCC and figure out how to get into the smaller markets again. We know th
93 enilria : So basically they paid nothing, but if they can make it profitable RJET gets $36m...the value of one new plane. Pretty sad. So much for the talk of i
94 Post contains images point2point : And with that..... would one be correct to assume that Indigo probably had a no-compete clause written into the contract with RAH (and if not, they n
95 tortugamon : It is 'worth' $145 million but taking on the debt has to be factored in. They are going to be have to put in a lot more than $36 Million to turn this
96 LAXintl : Lets see now of pilots and FA's reach a deal by the end of October. But personally, I view this as an extremely good opportunity for Frontier. Indigo
97 mercure1 : Frontier, the airline with 9-lives. From what I have read and seen about Indigo overseas they seem to be a experienced group and have done success wit
98 airfrnt : I suspect that the entire purpose of the deal's arrangement with Frontier's pilot is to allow the pilots to reconstitute FAPA, rather then allow's Rep
99 LAXintl : Some characteristics Indigo ULCCs seem to have; o Lean corporate structure o Maximize outsourcing - ground handling, maintenance, reservations etc. o
100 MIflyer12 : I don't share your confidence that the equilibrium in DEN is three hub carriers. NYC can support hubs of three carriers. CHI does it, although AA and
101 Post contains links GentFromAlaska : courtesy the Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/breakingne...rlines-be-sold-indigo-partners-llc This may squash some potential rumors
102 jerseyguy : What rumors? All its says is some analysts say that they may remain in denver while other analysts say they will leave.
103 LAXintl : Being based at DEN, and operating a hub, or major focus city are two very different things. While it looks like F9 will keep a corporate headquarters
104 Post contains images point2point : With what I notice going on in DEN about the last year (or maybe a bit more) is that NK moved in, and afterwards airfares to/from DEN dropped even so
105 GentFromAlaska : Potential rumors; no one knows for sure. I understood one posters statement above who actually worked for F9 lean on the side of F9 leaving the airpo
106 GentFromAlaska : Concur, An example might be PeoplExpress II. If the carrier does come to fruition it is reported they will have their corporate offices at PHF.
107 Post contains images point2point : And go to where exactly? These bunch of analysts seem to be forgetting that F9 is DEN. Even NK has its major base of operations at FLL, more than twi
108 Post contains links and images mariner : I think the rules of ULCC are more elastic than might be supposed. Indigo is involved in Tigerair and they hub at SIN and offer some connections ther
109 Post contains images point2point : Well.... since F9 was sold - as opposed to being spun-off/separated into its own entity by Republic as a Plan B - I guess we'll not know our answer a
110 Jerseyguy : I do believe though that F9 may reduce its DEN hub flights and retain mostly flights they believe they can make money off of via O&D traffic rath
111 mariner : Sure, they may. That's what they;ve been doing that for the past year or two - why should now be different? It all seems to be based on the idea what
112 LAXintl : NK continues to shrink at FLL. They ended up there following their move from DTW and before their transition to ULCC. Today FLL has 36 scheduled flig
113 mercure1 : Well Singapore is a city state. Obviously its a single airport. But go look at Wizz Air, another Indigo airline, or Mandala, or Spirit certainly. The
114 Post contains images point2point : Would there maybe be some different set of economics at play for a carrier in that part of the world - say, e.g., lower labor costs, etc? But I have
115 mariner : Yet Jetstar Asia - also with a hub in SIN - is spreading its wings across Asia, with other hubs in other places as well. No, indeed. But it was a fou
116 airfrnt : Since when have people on A.net refrained from speculating on these types of things? I can't believe no-one even posted on the union dynamics at play
117 mariner : It is the major point that is made in the "Separation FAQ's" to the staff - the sticking point is what it always was, changes to the pilot/f.a agreem
118 CarsAir04 : I am not familiar with how Spirit or other airlines that Indigo has invested in utilize employees. Are most of the above/below wing employees outsour
119 Post contains images GentFromAlaska : My I think job one for Indigo is to convert DEN or which ever airport it may be to something which looks more like TTN except on steroids. I disagree
120 BostonMike : Under the RLA, who is the representative body for the Frontier pilots? My understanding is the Teamsters were elected in 2011 to represent all the pi
121 Post contains images Jerseyguy : Maybe they could try COS I don't know the full story but Franke used to be CEO of America West which is where US got PHX to begin with. So, yeah I th
122 lightsaber : Any new information? What stops WN from expanding? Or UA? Eventually co-hubbed airlines will 'poach' attractive routes from each other. Eventually som
123 mariner : Nothing stops it. I'm only dealing with the now, what is, not what may be. I can't predict the future. When Frontier started DEN-PHF, many Southweste
124 GentFromAlaska : No! Yep, PHX makes the most sense if DEN is downsized. I also thought about the return of AZA; which might be too small to work as a micro hub but th
125 rj777 : I wonder what this will mean for F9 out of MKE (among other places)
126 VS11 : Not a bad deal for Indigo. They are probably putting somewhere between $10-12m of their own money, the rest is borrowed plus refinanced loans/bonds. I
127 airfrnt : Not really. It's middle of the pack now. The airport's bonds basically will be paid off in the next ten years, which will then leave it one of the ch
128 Post contains links LAXintl : A few quotes from Franke - Franke said the ultra low-cost model has proven global appeal. In the United States, airline mergers have spurred more oppo
129 GentFromAlaska : Three thousand lives were just put at ease.
130 CarsAir04 : But does that mean he will keep people on the ramp or CS, or will he outsource. I asked that question above, not knowing the Spirit model and if they
131 Post contains links VS11 : "We want to underscore that this is Denver's hometown airline," Franke told The Post. "We think Frontier has a very loyal customer base in Denver and
132 Post contains images point2point : WOW! This guy has been reading my posts here..... (lol). Smart man, but it's just so obvious the F9 is DEN. It has been for the in some form for most
133 CIDFlyer : I think Frontier will always have at most a respectable sized operation in DEN, its been their home for years and has a good brand awareness there. It
134 smoot4208 : Why do you keep bringing this up? The route didn't work. Period. If it did, they would still be operating it. Frontier (given their slim profitabilit
135 lightsaber : Wow... It went though. I was wondering if the deal would go through. I'm happy it did. I'll admit to being surprised at the DEN focus. I hope to see t
136 slcdeltarumd11 : Delta said nothing would happen.....tell that to cvg and mem. The hq would be crazy to move again and I'm sure Denver will always remain a major stati
137 Post contains images mariner : Based on what Mr. Franke has said, I assume that there will be more focus cities. Since he's talking about growth that doesn't negate DEN. mariner[Ed
138 BostonMike : 10-1-13: Parties in Frontier Sale Negotiate with Wrong Union Link to PDF Press Release In a last minute deal, Republic Airways Holdings (NASDAQ:RJET)
139 Byrdluvs747 : All this talk about a PHX hub is a pipe dream. So you all are saying that F9, who is getting pinned down by WN/UA in DEN, should set up shop in anoth
140 PHX787 : Where is INdigo from? And someone tell me in laymans terms why DEN will be "shut down?"
141 planesntrains : Sure. But "thousands in Denver"? I guess we'll see..... -Dave
142 GentFromAlaska : Only time will tell if Franke fully integrates F9 to a ULCC in DEN. He is on record as saying he will. If it happens I can see the majority of those
143 Post contains images jerseyguy : This is especially liked at DCA as its currently the only zoo in the city,
144 GentFromAlaska : Funny and sadly true. I believe the critters make four appearance daily in DCA. Twice daily in BNA. DCA also gets the A320 so technically they are la
145 enilria : What an f-ing disaster. I don't understand how that all happens. They should be negotiating with whoever won the election vote. I'm not sure why the
146 jerseyguy : No the Denver Zoo is owned by the City and County.
147 IllinoisMan : Just what the US needs, another "ultra low cost" carrier like G4 or NK, which is what Bill Franke has in mind for F9. No thanks.
148 AirFRNT : Frontier's union being dissolved was forced on them by IBT and the NLB, and IBT's openly hostile position with regards to the fence and the frontier
149 planesntrains : Then_don't_fly_them. If there isn't demand, they'll sink. If there is, they'll swim. What do you care? -Dave
150 mariner : Very good post. I assume that's the subtext to all this - the IBT's concern that in some way the pilots will attempt to reactivate FAPA as a union. S
151 Post contains images point2point : Good answer and thank you for it. Pretty much IIRC myself, although I didn't know about a lawsuit. Anyone know the actual results? Googling these leg
152 VS11 : Actually, it is not very clear that a mess will follow. Can IBT block the sale of Frontier to Indigo? Even if the pilot equity deal of 2011 is someho
153 IllinoisMan : Knowing how some friends have had bad experiences with NK, I'm uncomfortable with how many times the phrase "ultra-low-cost airline" is mentioned in
154 Post contains links mariner : This is nothing new. Frontier has been headed in this direction for some time. This article is dated January 2012: http://crankyflier.com/2012/01/30/
155 slcdeltarumd11 : Phoenix Arizona. Its unlikely they will move the HQ again though. It was already moved twice in such a short time period. Denver is probably safe as
156 gustywinds : I'm not sure why so many people think Indigo will totally outsource DEN. We should look at how Spirit staffs their stations to get an idea of what Fra
157 jerseyguy : Yes, F9 is headed towards a ULCC and will likely look very similar to NK. How far towards being an NK clone is the question. For example, will they e
158 Post contains links mariner : I'm surely not going there again, but there is this interesting follow-up: http://www.delawareonline.com/articl...stions-future-air-service-delaware
159 AirFRNT : For good reason. There is a bit of a chicken and egg problem here. FAPA got away with the creation of FAPAInvest LLC, because the interest was assign
160 jerseyguy : Yes, but we've had quotes in news articles stating that the F9 pilots don't feel that way and also a poster here who claims inside information that s
161 AirFRNT : Mutual assured destruction only is a detterant if you believe it's a settle rent. The F9 folks have earned the right to charter their own path.
162 BostonMike : Damn, it's a scrappy airline and it deserves a break. The issue of pilot unions is always fraught with emotion. In my former career I have loved and
163 Post contains images PHX787 : Cue the "move the hub to PHX" banter (i'm only kidding. woot woot for PHX!) Right sized, eh? well....unprofitable routes will probably be the first t
164 mariner : I'm no expert on labor relations - and I try to avoid pilot stuff - but I'm struggling with that. Republic will have no financial interest in the sep
165 Frontier14 : There has been and most likely will continue to be disagreement between the IBT and the F9 pilots over everything. Once F9 is sold to Indigo and is l
166 Post contains images point2point : $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Can we hope that reasonable minds will prevail here? ...... Are reasonable minds still in existence this day and age?
167 mariner : Sorry, I don't understand that, either. Once separation happens then - in my view - Frontier pilots will be neither senior nor junior to any pilot at
168 CarsAir04 : I can't say I know this for sure, but maybe the Republic pilots, with integration of seniority may have gotten their chance of going to the Frontier s
169 Post contains images point2point : Dues..... it probably isn't really that much though, although F9 pilots paying dues to IBT would probably in fact show F9 pilots recognition of IBT..
170 mariner : I believe that was the hope of some Republic pilots (fly the bigger jets), and I also believe (?) that might have happened once "the fence" came down
171 BostonMike : I am certainly not an airline labor attorney and I would hope reasonable minds can work this out. The arbitrator assigned by the NMB created an integr
172 mariner : "The fence" being the key to it. The FAPA Separation agreement of March 2011 did more than provide the potential for (small) ownership by the pilots
173 Frontier14 : I would concur that $$$$$ are a goal of the IBT in whatever manner they can be attained. The conflict between IBT and F9 pilots goes back to the day
174 ridgid727 : I have to agree, I believe the Revised Frontier 2, as a UULCC (ultra ulta lcc) will clone the customer service ops at NK. They will become Airbuses F
175 Post contains images point2point : Would IBT maybe think that Indigo is buying an airline that technically now has no pilots, since the F9 pilots, as per IBT, belong to them, and that
176 mariner : Frontier is being sold as a going concern, with (presently) the IBT approved and agreed contracts in place. I don't see how the IBT can stop that sal
177 BostonMike : This seems logical. However, there is still the issue of what FAPAInvest has agreed to in its negotiations with Indigo. That is still a fly in the oi
178 Post contains images point2point : Hmmmmm.... so let's see here.......... In order for the F9 pilots to have some claim to an equity share for which their contract with Republic gave t
179 F9animal : I have always been very vocal about unions. I support them. However.... While at F9 during the mess BB had, I recall speaking with several F9 pilots a
180 BostonMike : I think you got it, but still don't know if any of it makes sense. The silly thing about this is the perceived pilot pecking order! RAH is seen as a
181 Post contains links mariner : Yes, that's the sticking point. The agreement at issue is the FAPA agreement of 2011 - FAPAInvest - which is about the future financial structure of
182 Frontier14 : From what I am hearing there are several meetings scheduled next week with FAPAInvest, AFA (Flight Attendents) and Indigo in regard to the equity and
183 jerseyguy : The president of the union that was imposed on F9 is a disgruntled ex-employee? Yeah this will turn out well lol
184 Post contains images mariner : You got that right. The IBT - Local 357 - has been running an advertising campaign against Republic (fixed fee side) which ads may be libellous. RAH'
185 Post contains images point2point : I know. The ability of the human brain to think unreasonable and irrationally, eh? Is this guy actually still the president? In some ways... I have t
186 Post contains images mariner : Next puzzle - what happens to the (non-DEN) DCA flights - MCI/MSN/OMA-DCA? These use Republic slots (acquired from Midwest) which - I don't believe -
187 mariner : It surely isn't going to work if Franke starts life at Frontier as the perceived enemy of the pilots and f/a's. I'm not aware that any changes were m
188 Post contains images point2point : I could be mistaken, but I thought that the pilots/FAs gave up salaries, and from that point were being paid less in exchange for a percentage/owners
189 mariner : I assumed that too, until I read the agreement. And if the (work) contract was not amendable until 2014: I don't see how it could have been amended.
190 Post contains images point2point : So what exactly, then, entitled the F9 pilots a percentage/ownership upon separation? I doubt that BB/RAH would just hand this to the F9 pilots witho
191 mariner : I dunno, I wasn't privy to the negotiations about it. From my perspective, it did something moderately important - it encouraged potential investors
192 Post contains images point2point : Mariner, my friend, come on..... I thought that you knew everything here.......... IIRC, RAH had to give these routes up upon the YX acquisition, onl
193 Frontier14 : They did in the form of deferral of pay increases, reduction of company 401 contributions among others in exchange for the equity ownership percents
194 mcg : Where did the $39.3 million number come from? It seems very high to me given that the entire airline was just sold for $36 million.
195 mariner : I go back to the original bid for Frontier - which outfoxed just about every analyst (and most of a.net) - and the management of Southwest. Yet it wa
196 Post contains links and images mariner : Sorry, I missed this - but no, not quite. Yes, Republic acquired the slots from Midwest, but the DOT took issue with this, saying the slots could not
197 jerseyguy : Couldn't Republic contract the flying on the slots to Frontier and work something out that way, just like US does with Republic, PSA, and Air Wiscons
198 mariner : Sure, it can be done that way. The branding isn't an issue - as in the Q&A, they are branded Frontier now. I don't think the (departing?) E190's
199 BostonMike : I think this constitutes LOA #67 which is the subject of an ongoing lawsuit by the IBT. This may have the makings of another Jarndyce vs Jarndyce for
200 AirFRNT : Looking at the structure for this deal, it appears to be have been very very carefully created. Honestly, it still strikes me that FAPA built the dea
201 rj777 : I'm wondering what's going to happen to the Frontier Express operation (if that's even still going) since that outfit is operated by Chautaqua which i
202 Frontier14 : Frontier Express has been out of the picture for a while now. RAH has no more rjs performing this function. Unless you want to say that the remaining
203 Post contains links mariner : Timing being everything - here may be some good news for Indigo - and Frontier: http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/ne...rplane-parts-tax-break-flying.h
204 Post contains images point2point : Wow! This is indeed good news, and for it to be backed "unanimously during a committee meeting Wednesday" shows that there are maybe more than enough
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