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Frontier Sale Talks Stall - Monday Deadline  
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25532 posts, RR: 50
Posted (1 year 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 19631 times:

With the already once extended deadline looming on Monday, WSJ says negotiations for the sale of Frontier Airlines by Indigo Partners has stalled.

According to reports, Indigo is not expected to reach a deal by Monday with negotiations with the pilots union being a central sticking point.


Let see what happens now. Suppose parties can extend the deadline yet further, or RAH pursue some plan B...


Frontier Airlines Sale Talks Falter
http://goo.gl/iNuhWz

=

[Edited 2013-09-27 17:19:17]


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
204 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2763 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (1 year 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 19311 times:

Since this is only a subscription link above to the story, I'm unable to access it

That being said, and assuming the standard fare reporting and discounting some shocking revelation in it..... well.... the pilots and others have to get what their agreement stated, and that is a percentage of the airline upon sale, and the sale is up to Brian Bedford to be made.

If Indigo walks, BB still has to find a buyer, or figure out a way to get the pilots and others what is due to them.

 


User currently offlinerj777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1857 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (1 year 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 19099 times:

I have a feeling that there was something in the deal that the pilots union didn't like!

User currently offlineJamake1 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1012 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (1 year 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 19035 times:

Quoting rj777 (Reply 3):
I have a feeling that there was something in the deal that the pilots union didn't like!

Indeed. Indigo Partners reportedly wants Frontier employees to give up their right to an equity stake (due them) in the event that Frontier is sold. The equity stake was made in exchange for wage and benefit concessions.



United's B747-400. "She's a a cruel lover."
User currently offlineJerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2002 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 18915 times:
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Quoting point2point (Reply 1):
If Indigo walks, BB still has to find a buyer, or figure out a way to get the pilots and others what is due to them.

They may be playing with fire, "What is due them" could end up not being what they had hoped for.



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13161 posts, RR: 100
Reply 5, posted (1 year 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 18889 times:
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Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
According to reports, Indigo is not expected to reach a deal by Monday with negotiations with the pilots union being a central sticking point.

Is it the equity stake? That might make the purchase price too high for this investor considering after F9 is purchased quite a bit of money must be put into the company to make it viable (e.g., new seats to go ULCC).

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
or RAH pursue some plan B...

How much longer can they run F9 while finding a 'plan B?' At least per the link I found, it looks like Republic can take a bunch of the F9 related debt and package it with a 'spun off F9.'

Quoting point2point (Reply 1):
If Indigo walks, BB still has to find a buyer, or figure out a way to get the pilots and others what is due to them.

Actually, there isn't going to be much 'due to them.'
Republic can fall back to the spin-off plan if the Frontier sale can't be completed. As part of the spin-off, Republic could probably move some of its corporate debt onto Frontier's balance sheet, thereby reducing its interest costs and improving its credit profile.
http://www.fool.com/investing/genera...trating-airline-for-investors.aspx


At some point, its simply not worth it for an investor to deal with all the unions. It is but a matter of projected return on investment. If the ROI is too low, the investors will pursue another deal in another industry. Cest la vie. F9 would then be spun of from Republic with all the debt it is due and then the independent airline would 'sink or swim' on its own merits.

I hope the deal goes through. IMHO, it is the only long term solution for F9.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7210 posts, RR: 13
Reply 7, posted (1 year 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 18704 times:

Will it result in imminent bankruptcy?? I don't know much about F9, I just know that I have flights booked in a fortnight that I don't want to lose.

User currently offlineJerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2002 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 18538 times:
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Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 8):
Will it result in imminent bankruptcy?? I don't know much about F9, I just know that I have flights booked in a fortnight that I don't want to lose.

I doubt you have anything to worry about.



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineawacsooner From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 1919 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (1 year 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 18364 times:

Monday morning quarterbacking, they should have sold to WN...

User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2763 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (1 year 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 18267 times:

Quoting Jerseyguy (Reply 5):
They may be playing with fire, "What is due them" could end up not being what they had hoped for.

IIRC, what is due the pilots/others by contract is separation of majority ownership of F9 by RAH, and that the pilots/others with get stock ownership/equity of a new F9.

Quoting Jerseyguy (Reply 7):
Another possible reason is that there is apparantly a dispute or lawsuit over whether it was legal for the concessions to take place in the first place.

From my understanding, what would this have to do with ownership? It would be pilots union suing pilots union.... something akin, but not quite, what has been going on at US. If Indigo is trying to use this...... shame.......

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 6):
At some point, its simply not worth it for an investor to deal with all the unions. It is but a matter of projected return on investment. If the ROI is too low, the investors will pursue another deal in another industry. Cest la vie. F9 would then be spun of from Republic with all the debt it is due and then the independent airline would 'sink or swim' on its own merits.
Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 8):
Will it result in imminent bankruptcy??

So long as F9 is pulling in 2 cents more in revenue than it does in expenses, it will not shut down.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 6):
How much longer can they run F9 while finding a 'plan B?

It doesn't matter who or how, but it is the good faith contractual commitment of BB/RAH to get a separation done, and equities to contracted parties. And see comment above

Quoting awacsooner (Reply 10):

Monday morning quarterbacking, they should have sold to WN...

Uh huh.... and the pilots right now be sitting on their couches for the last two years without a job........

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 6):
Republic can fall back to the spin-off plan if the Frontier sale can't be completed. As part of the spin-off, Republic could probably move some of its corporate debt onto Frontier's balance sheet, thereby reducing its interest costs and improving its credit profile.
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 6):
with all the debt it is due and then the independent airline would 'sink or swim' on its own merits.

Oh lordie...... and how rich would this make how many attorneys? Again, IIRC, the acquisition of YX caused all the debt for RAH, wouldn't that be correct?

 





[Edited 2013-09-28 01:05:44]

User currently offlinewhereitswarm From United States of America, joined May 2013, 18 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 3 days ago) and read 17208 times:

I am part of an investment group (kind of like Indigo, but much smaller) that is involved in the possible sales transaction of Frontier Airlines. (Coincidentally, I am also a pilot at Frontier) To date, my group has invested over 25 million dollars in the future of Frontier to grow it and make it more valuable and profitable. Indigo will also be investing money in Frontier, to help it grow and prosper and make it more valuable - just like my investment group did.

So years from now, do you think Indigo would give up their equity stake - for nothing - when ownership changes hands again?

Then why should my investment group be expected to do just that?

I have yet to hear anyone give me a good reason as to why we should just give up that 25 million dollar investment for little to nothing in return.

Would you?

Quoting awacsooner (Reply 10):

Monday morning quarterbacking, they should have sold to WN...


Being an Air Wisky guy, and a Sooner fan, both make me want to like you. But then you keep saying this (over and over) and completely ruin it.  . That particular Monday morning was over four years ago.


User currently offlineCarsAir04 From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 162 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (1 year 3 days ago) and read 17164 times:

Quoting whereitswarm (Reply 12):
I have yet to hear anyone give me a good reason as to why we should just give up that 25 million dollar investment for little to nothing in return.

Would you?

No, and what sucks to see and hear from friends is that CEO's and the like are trying to pin the non-union people against you by saying, look, if the pilots don't do this, you will not get a raise and a bonus, but if they do, you will get on. But I was there when that stuff was promised before and never happened. I want to see Frontier continue and I am sure it will, but the pilots gave up a lot and I am glad to hear they are sticking to their claim.


User currently offlinewhereitswarm From United States of America, joined May 2013, 18 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 3 days ago) and read 17104 times:

Thanks Cars. Luckily, a lot of the non union employees get it too. Just like those employee groups thanked us and stood behind us for what they thought was 'our part' in turning down that immortal Southwest offer, they also seem to be standing behind us now, and not falling for the woefully obvious management tactics.

User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11712 posts, RR: 62
Reply 14, posted (1 year 3 days ago) and read 17013 times:

Quoting awacsooner (Reply 10):
Monday morning quarterbacking, they should have sold to WN...

I just do not see a future for Frontier as an independent company.

The network strategy seems to change frequently, the product offering seems inconsistent with market realities, and the employees that are left are apparently - as already mentioned here - quite dissatisfied with the present course (understandably so).

Frontier is by far the weakest player in the 3-carrier slug fest in its home market of Denver, and I do not think it's present model - there or in general - is sustainable. I think Frontier's best option at this point is the full (not hybrid, kind-of-sort-of) adoption of the ULCC model. This will bring substantial changes and a fundamental realignment of the network, as fares in Denver are already so low that the typical Spirit low fare market stimulation is likely to have less impact there.

Perhaps a merger with Spirit would make sense. It would involve combining two very similar fleets and create a more balanced and comprehensive network - if you overlay the two route maps, you have a fairly impressive route system spanning virtually all the major leisure markets in North and northern Latin America.

One way or another, I think ULCC is the only plausible long-term scenario for Frontier.


User currently offlinejfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3508 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (1 year 3 days ago) and read 16935 times:

Quoting point2point (Reply 11):
Uh huh.... and the pilots right now be sitting on their couches for the last two years without a job........

Please explain that. They later brought AirTran and not ONE guy was thrown to the street.

As a pilot, WN is the most stable airline you can work for. Forget about Captain and First Officer, most of the AirTran guys got thrown to FO...and they still netted more take home pay.

Stupid move by F9. That's not Monday Morning Quarterbacking...I said it was stupid then so did 90% or a.netters.
Who sells themselves to a regional and expects good results?


User currently offlinewhereitswarm From United States of America, joined May 2013, 18 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 16828 times:

I think the AirTran deal absolutely proved that Frontier pilots were correct in turning down a seniority list stapling to the bottom. If we had accepted that, it would have set the absolute worst precedent imaginable for pilots in this industry - namely that a pilots worth in a merger/acquisition is determined by nothing more than the financial predicament that the management or other forces (credit card company) have put their employiing airline in.

If Southwest had offered an integration similar to what the AirTran guys got, we might not be having this discussion (why are we having this discussion again?). But if you live by that sword, be prepared to die by it. If someday, the financial fortunes of Southwest take a turn for the worst, then your place in a possible acquisition won't be relative seniority, or date of hire, right? If you're bankrupt at the time, will you gratefully accept a staple from whomever comes calling?


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7654 posts, RR: 18
Reply 17, posted (1 year 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 16795 times:

Ok I'm not a frontier expert like mariner, but I gotta wonder....what's stopping F9 from standing alone again?


我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlineflyby519 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 1154 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 16654 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 18):

Ok I'm not a frontier expert like mariner, but I gotta wonder....what's stopping F9 from standing alone again?

They don't have a leg to stand on. They are a 3rd place (out of 3) carrier in their home base of DEN.



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User currently onlinekingcavalier From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 1309 posts, RR: 17
Reply 19, posted (1 year 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 16355 times:

There is more to F9 than just DEN. Just look at how the route map has changed. TTN & ILG show the changing business model. Apple Vacations anyone? I don't understand the continued obsession with many on here regarding the so called 3-way battle in DEN. F9 has and continues to adapt its route map in DEN. It is finding its niche with markets like SBA, DRO, PSP, PHF, BKG, EUG, GTF, BZN, FAR, MOT, CID, BMI, GSO, MDT, ILG & FSD. And not to forget DEN-CVG which has been gangbusters. I doubt F9 would be here today if it hadn't adapted to changing business models and continued to fly to markets like BOI and compete with UA & WN. Those markets are too small for 3 carriers.

Why can't F9 stand on its own? I guess it could but as Bedford said Republic isn't taking it to the next level. It needs a boost of capital to buy the NEOs, to invest in new slimline seats, etc. F9 is making money but it needs to make more money so it can bank a big cushion of money. It needs to complete its transition to a full fledged ULCC to start making good money. It will be difficult to get to that next level on its own. Spirit was at this crossroad not so long ago before Indigo took it to the next level.

I believe the Indigo deal will go through. They could of course walk but I believe Franke is ready to put another feather is in his hat and recreate another Spirit. He obviously likes the potential he sees in F9. If he didn't why would he bother? Guys like Franke are only in it for the money.

I believe there is a future for F9 as long as it is a ULCC. Should Spirit be the only ULCC? G4 is a different model so NK is really the only other comparison. Look at Spirit's route map and schedule frequency to get a good idea of what a future F9 route map might look like.



Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness
User currently offlineawacsooner From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 1919 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (1 year 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 16319 times:

Quoting point2point (Reply 10):
Uh huh.... and the pilots right now be sitting on their couches for the last two years without a job........

Right...you mean the same WN that hasn't had a layoff in how long? The same WN that publicly came out and said they would find a place for ALL F9 employees in their organization that wanted to remain?


User currently offlinegustywinds From Armenia, joined Feb 2012, 141 posts, RR: 12
Reply 21, posted (1 year 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 16289 times:

Who cares if F9 is 3rd place in its hometown? They wouldn't be in any place if they cared about things like that because they would already be out of business. It's just people on here who care about winners and losers. If UA is in 1st place in market share in DEN then WN lost because it isn't?

I doubt the future F9 will be the biggest carrier in any market it serves except for places like TTN, and that doesn't bother me one bit!


User currently offlinegustywinds From Armenia, joined Feb 2012, 141 posts, RR: 12
Reply 22, posted (1 year 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 16246 times:

Awacsooner - that simply isn't true. WN never said ALL F9 employees would have jobs. They said some employees and those would have to reapply for any open position at WN.

User currently offlinewhereitswarm From United States of America, joined May 2013, 18 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 16212 times:

Quoting awacsooner (Reply 20):
The same WN that publicly came out and said they would find a place for ALL F9 employees in their organization that wanted to remain?

I remember something like that, but I don't think it was worded quite that way. Do you have the source for that public statement? I am willing to concede that I am remembering it wrong if that is the case.


User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11712 posts, RR: 62
Reply 24, posted (1 year 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 16213 times:

Quoting gustywinds (Reply 21):
Who cares if F9 is 3rd place in its hometown?

The fact that they're in third place in a three-competitor race is important for other reasons. Namely - the DEN market is not nearly large enough to support that much capacity, and I - along with many others - continue to expert the market to rationalize at some point. And when it does, I do not think it will be UA or WN - both better-capitalized, with far larger networks, that are likely to lose. UA can draw upon their global network, premium amenities, and most of all connectivity to small regional markets, while WN can offer its low fares and comprehensive frequencies across the entire U.S. F9 can match neither, which is a critical problem.

Quoting gustywinds (Reply 21):
They wouldn't be in any place if they cared about things like that because they would already be out of business. It's just people on here who care about winners and losers.

This isn't about "winners and losers" in terms of market share. It's about "winners and losers" in general, of which market share is but one indicator of larger trends. And those trends do not appear - at least to me - to be going in F9's favor.

Quoting gustywinds (Reply 21):
If UA is in 1st place in market share in DEN then WN lost because it isn't?

Nobody is saying that. This isn't as simplistic as "F9 isn't #1 so they're a failure." For the reasons mentioned above, F9 being up against two far stronger competitors in its largest and most important market is a big strategic problem.


User currently offlineCarsAir04 From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 162 posts, RR: 1
Reply 25, posted (1 year 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 16406 times:

Quoting awacsooner (Reply 20):
Right...you mean the same WN that hasn't had a layoff in how long? The same WN that publicly came out and said they would find a place for ALL F9 employees in their organization that wanted to remain?

yes, but in any merger, in any type of business there will be casualties. It is hard to say what would have happened, even you could not know for sure how or what would have happened to the pilots, ramp workers, CS etc. Look at departments like pricing, reservations, advertising, marketing, IT etc. All those departments were already built at WN, so all those people would have lost jobs because you don't need two marketing departments, two pricing centers etc. There are only so many jobs for ramp workers, CS at the airport and only so many for pilots. Its not to say that some would have been able to have jobs, True, some would have. But not all. To say that WN would have found a spot for ALL F9 employees, I would find that hard to believe and for any company to say that in any merger would be tough to show in the end. Yes you would have people that would not want to move, etc.

But we can't live in the past, right now Frontier is holding up pretty good in going to the ULCC model, starting to show some potential in making money, cutting cost. Will they make it? It is hard to predict the future, but I for one wish them the best as I have friends that work there and would hate to see them, or anyone lose their jobs.


User currently offlinegustywinds From Armenia, joined Feb 2012, 141 posts, RR: 12
Reply 26, posted (1 year 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 16399 times:

Still don't by the market share argument. Just because F9 is third place in DEN doesn't mean it isn't viable. Why does F9 only have to be DEN? Why can't it be in number 5 in DEN, number 1 in TTN and ILG, number 9 in BNA, etc?

User currently offlineCarsAir04 From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 162 posts, RR: 1
Reply 27, posted (1 year 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 16554 times:

Quoting gustywinds (Reply 22):
They said some employees and those would have to reapply for any open position at WN.

exactly they way it was put.


User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6771 posts, RR: 17
Reply 28, posted (1 year 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 16383 times:

Hmmm..

Just a shot in the dark and it may be totally crazy, but does the purchase of Frontier by Air Wisconsin sound like a good idea? They are heavily burdened by the 50 seat flying and as US is their only customer, I'm thinking they have to have more ways to diversify themselves.

Could they take on F9 and run it as a ULCC? supplement into some smaller cities using their CRJs?

Just a thought..



Aiming High and going far..
User currently onlineMIflyer12 From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 1052 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (1 year 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 16278 times:

Quoting gustywinds (Reply 26):
Just because F9 is third place in DEN doesn't mean it isn't viable. Why does F9 only have to be DEN? Why can't it be in number 5 in DEN, number 1 in TTN and ILG, number 9 in BNA, etc?

Being a big fish in a few very small ponds isn't enough. The domestic air market shows successes broadly with three strategies:

1. Be a nationwide & global carrier. That's the game DL and UA play.

2. Be a great, if regionally limited, carrier. That's what B6 and AS do.

3. Have really, really low costs. That's what's working for Spirit and Allegiant.

F9 surely lacks the extensive network. People here are pounding on lack of success in DEN, pointing out that F9 doesn't have strategy #2 going for it. That's why in the past few months persistent talk has been given to F9 being transformed into a ULCC -- pretty much all that's left (other than Ch 7 liquidation when the $ and Republic's patience run out).


User currently offlineflyby519 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 1154 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (1 year 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 16045 times:

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 28):
Hmmm..

Just a shot in the dark and it may be totally crazy, but does the purchase of Frontier by Air Wisconsin sound like a good idea? They are heavily burdened by the 50 seat flying and as US is their only customer, I'm thinking they have to have more ways to diversify themselves.

Could they take on F9 and run it as a ULCC? supplement into some smaller cities using their CRJs?

Just a thought..


Isn't that exactly what Republic did?



These postings or comments are not a company-sponsored source of communication.
User currently offlinesunking737 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2049 posts, RR: 8
Reply 31, posted (1 year 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 16023 times:

Hey King looks like no one wants to listen to you about F9. Guys their is way more to F9 then DEN. You need to look at the big picture. A fleet of 53 Airbuses is a lot of planes. Yes they maybe leased, but it will be around for sometime yet.


Just an MSPAVGEEK
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2763 posts, RR: 1
Reply 32, posted (1 year 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 15819 times:

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 15):
Please explain that.

Oh good heavens...... F9 was in BK, remember? F9 employees had no leverage the way that employees of FL did. Then, WN wanted ATL with FL..... as F9 at DEN was already redundant in the WN system. Different aircraft between F9 and WN, not FL and WN. Etc. Need I go on?

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 15):
Stupid move by F9. That's not Monday Morning Quarterbacking...I said it was stupid then so did 90% or a.netters.

Okay.... 99% of a.netters can think it a stupid move. I think that the pilots did the right thing not selling out to WN, I don't care if I'm 1% or less.

Quoting awacsooner (Reply 20):
Right...you mean the same WN that hasn't had a layoff in how long? The same WN that publicly came out and said they would find a place for ALL F9 employees in their organization that wanted to remain?

  

Yea, and I got a bridge to sell.......

Quoting flyby519 (Reply 18):
They are a 3rd place (out of 3) carrier in their home base of DEN.

I'll keep repeating this and everyone knows that it's true ---- as long as F9 pulls in 2 more cents in revenues than it spends in expenses...... it's not going anywhere. F9 has been a profitable the last couple of years. Now, if F9 starts spending more in expenses than it pulls in with revenues, it's a different ballgame.

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 28):
Could they take on F9 and run it as a ULCC? supplement into some smaller cities using their CRJs?

Just a thought..

  

Maximize on what they have now....... after that..... then is the time for other strategies. In the meantime, there's probably still adjustments to F9 that can be done to get better results.



Quoting kingcavalier (Reply 19):
There is more to F9 than just DEN.

Not really..... at least at this point. But that's okay, because really, F9 is DEN, and when they concentrate their efforts there, they do well. When they venture elsewhere, well..... millions of $$$ seem to go flying out their door in a jiffy. TNN and ILG seem (again, seem) to be paying off, but...... F9's ambitions away from DEN have always ended up catastrophic. Let's keep our fingers crossed this can change.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 17):
what's stopping F9 from standing alone again?

Nothing other than greed.......

 


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25328 posts, RR: 85
Reply 33, posted (1 year 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 15724 times:
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Quoting whereitswarm (Reply 23):
Nobody is saying that. This isn't as simplistic as "F9 isn't #1 so they're a failure." For the reasons mentioned above, F9 being up against two far stronger competitors in its largest and most important market is a big strategic problem.

I'm not sure what that has to do with it.

Airport market share is meaningless in terms of profit - Frontier was making good money when it had less than 10% share at DEN. United had more than 60% and was, famously, bleeding money.

Until now, everything else has been agreed - except for this one issue:

Quoting CarsAir04 (Reply 12):
I want to see Frontier continue and I am sure it will, but the pilots gave up a lot and I am glad to hear they are sticking to their claim.

  

I don't know what happens if the deal falls apart and I'm not sure there is a viable Plan B - but I cannot work out why "the investor" is so adamantly opposed to the pilot participation in ownership.

It was the basis of the agreement for separation. The pilots would have a very small (low single digit) percentage and the "the investor" isn't buying the entire shareholding, the other 98% - or wasn't last time I heard, but maybe things have changed.

Good luck, Frontier.

mariner

[Edited 2013-09-28 12:01:41]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13161 posts, RR: 100
Reply 34, posted (1 year 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 15427 times:
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Quoting point2point (Reply 10):
So long as F9 is pulling in 2 cents more in revenue than it does in expenses, it will not shut down.

Agreed. But where are they going to get the funds to adapt to WN's future growth at DEN?

Quoting point2point (Reply 10):
It doesn't matter who or how, but it is the good faith contractual commitment of BB/RAH to get a separation done, and equities to contracted parties. And see comment above

Is that the best deal for labor? I think otherwise. And they keep their promises if they spin off Frontier with the debt.   

Quoting point2point (Reply 10):
It doesn't matter who or how, but it is the good faith contractual commitment of BB/RAH to get a separation done, and equities to contracted parties. And see comment above

Contracts are renegotiated all the time. There won't be many opportunities like this one. I hope the unions are brought into negotiation and a deal is made.

Quoting point2point (Reply 10):
Oh lordie...... and how rich would this make how many attorneys? Again, IIRC, the acquisition of YX caused all the debt for RAH, wouldn't that be correct?

   It doesn't matter. For Republic its the better deal. If F9 does well, they would still own equity and they spin off the debt. Its a better deal for Republic and all they're doing is spinning off their 'large airline' debt. That debt belongs more with Republic than the regional division.

The pilots will get what was promised. Equity in the spun off F9. They had to know it would be a company in debt. If well run, it will grow and thrive with little trouble paying off the debt. Republic wouldn't be viable keeping all that debt. F9 should be.

Quoting point2point (Reply 32):
Okay.... 99% of a.netters can think it a stupid move. I think that the pilots did the right thing not selling out to WN, I don't care if I'm 1% or less.

It all depends if you consider ROI or not.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2763 posts, RR: 1
Reply 35, posted (1 year 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 15302 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 34):
It doesn't matter. For Republic its the better deal. If F9 does well, they would still own equity and they spin off the debt. Its a better deal for Republic and all they're doing is spinning off their 'large airline' debt. That debt belongs more with Republic than the regional division.

The pilots will get what was promised. Equity in the spun off F9. They had to know it would be a company in debt. If well run, it will grow and thrive with little trouble paying off the debt. Republic wouldn't be viable keeping all that debt. F9 should be.

You think that this won't matter to the F9 pilots? Where have you been living?

If RAH tries to stick their corporate debt onto a spun-off F9, one had better believe that a lot of attorneys will make a lot of money litigating this. F9 had no debt when RAH acquired them, all of their debts had been discharged to BK. And IIRC, F9 was actually making a profit the last few months in BK before RAH entered the picture (we can discuss/argue ad nausea the merits of what this entails, nonetheless, it is fact in a court). It was only after RAH bought YX and tried to fly RAH birds on YX routes at MKE under the F9 banner that all of the debt skyrocketed. This was a BB/RAH management decision, not that of F9 pilots/employees, although they did their best with the situation. Some can guess that this YX acquisition cost some $70-100M........ and is still probably on the books at RAH.

Now..... if in its spin-off of F9, RAH tries to straddle the new F9 with any of this debt....... how can one think that this won't be contested by the F9 pilots? In their view, this new F9 incurred no debt on its own, and the pilots don't want to be stuck with the unfortunate costly decisions of RAH management. I don't think that the pilots had to know that this new F9 will be stuck with bad debt from RAH, nor are they expecting such.... nor will they accept such.

And I would be pretty safe in predicting that if a new F9 spin-off isn't debt free, then there will be a court case, and based on the good-faith contract/agreement between the F9 pilots and RAH, I could see the pilots easily winning. Of course, that's after a lot of attorneys make a lot of monies.......

 



[Edited 2013-09-28 12:49:06]

User currently offlineawacsooner From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 1919 posts, RR: 1
Reply 36, posted (1 year 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 14650 times:

Quoting gustywinds (Reply 22):
Awacsooner - that simply isn't true. WN never said ALL F9 employees would have jobs. They said some employees and those would have to reapply for any open position at WN.

And you're not telling the entire story...because WN said they would have jobs for everyone who wanted to jump on board...albeit not necessarily in their current position!


User currently offlineCarsAir04 From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 162 posts, RR: 1
Reply 37, posted (1 year 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 14462 times:

Quoting awacsooner (Reply 36):
And you're not telling the entire story...because WN said they would have jobs for everyone who wanted to jump on board...albeit not necessarily in their current position!

that is not fact... I worked at F9 when WN was bidding and it was stated that you would have to apply for any open positions, that you would just not "get" a job, even if it wasn't in your position. As I mentioned above, in no way, no matter what company you work for, in a merger, there is no way all jobs will be saved or people brought over. There is just no need for all those people in any industry.


User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2763 posts, RR: 1
Reply 38, posted (1 year 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 14406 times:

Quoting whereitswarm (Reply 13):
Luckily, a lot of the non union employees get it too. Just like those employee groups thanked us and stood behind us for what they thought was 'our part' in turning down that immortal Southwest offer, they also seem to be standing behind us now, and not falling for the woefully obvious management tactics.

The pilots/employees need to go about their jobs, doing as best they can to make sure that F9 is the carrier that would be the first choice of air pax if the choice is there. In the meantime, yes, pilots/FAs/other F9 employees all need to stay together on this and make sure that greedy investors are not going to be screwing hard working employees out of their hard-earned earnings while lining their own deep pockets with more monies that these corporate bigs don't even need anymore.

Quoting awacsooner (Reply 36):
WN said they would have jobs for everyone who wanted to jump on board...albeit not necessarily in their current position!

Would you be able to link/reference this?

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 34):
Contracts are renegotiated all the time.

Yes, but I do believe that all parties to a contract have to be agreeable to any renegotiations. One party in a contract cannot alone change terms.

 

[Edited 2013-09-28 15:58:22]

User currently offlineVictorKilo From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 313 posts, RR: 0
Reply 39, posted (1 year 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 13821 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 33):
I don't know what happens if the deal falls apart and I'm not sure there is a viable Plan B - but I cannot work out why "the investor" is so adamantly opposed to the pilot participation in ownership.

Perhaps the issue isn't as philosophical as that and just comes down to dollars.

Indigo offers X. BB wants X. But the pilots get $25 million in a sale. So Indigo would pay X and BB would get X - 25. BB tries to get the pilots to wave their $25 million. They say no. BB tries to get Indigo to pay X + 25 so he can keep X. Indigo says no. Talks falter.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25328 posts, RR: 85
Reply 40, posted (1 year 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 13758 times:
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Quoting VictorKilo (Reply 39):
Indigo offers X. BB wants X. But the pilots get $25 million in a sale. So Indigo would pay X and BB would get X - 25. BB tries to get the pilots to wave their $25 million.

I'm still struggling because - as I understand it - it's a paper deal for the pilots, no actual money changes hands.

Unless it is an unusually structured deal, the pilots get no money down, only a shareholding with a conceptual value, a paper value, until a price can be established - probably (almost certainly) by way of an IPO, an offering to the public.

At that point an actual value is placed in Frontier and thus an actual value is placed on the shares of Frontier.

The pilots have, in effect, paid for the eventual shareholding already with the original deal - givebacks (or no salary increases), in return for that eventual shareholding.

I had expected more of a storm because (I'm told) "the investor" wanted to take away the profit sharing deal - also completely conceptual because there haven't been any profits to share - but, as I understand it, an acceptable offer has been made to the non-union staff in return for dropping the profit sharing deal.

I'm not aware that any such sweetener has been offered to pilots - there may have been something but I don't know about it - so I am not surprised the pilots are aggrieved and I am equally surprised that this really quite small ownership participation by the pilots would be a deal-breaker.

I gather a lot of the pilots think they've been shafted (or would be) by this and I can't say they're wrong.

mariner

[Edited 2013-09-28 19:43:58]


aeternum nauta
User currently onlinekingcavalier From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 1309 posts, RR: 17
Reply 41, posted (1 year 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 13607 times:

If BB had invested the resources into a ULCC F9 back when they acquired the carrier we would probably be talking about an IPO right about now instead of a private equity deal that could possibly be falling through. Instead, BB squandered resources and time, capital which should have gone into what Indigo is hopefully getting ready to do. Hindsight is 20/20 but I can't help but wonder where we would be right now if BB had not made so many mistakes. I am thankful RAH saved F9 at the time from WN's obvious intentions to eliminate a competitor. I would've been onboard with the WN deal if WN had not already re-entered DEN and built up a 100+ flights a day operation. But they didn't need F9 so their intentions were very evident.

I feel sorry for the employees of F9. They are definitely fighters and that's what I like about the scrappy airline. They went through a couple years of bankruptcy and now several years of mismanagement by BB. Now, they are facing more uncertainty with the Indigo deal.

BB should've kept F9 separate from day one. Egos got in the way and BB thought he knew best how to run a branded carrier, even though he had no experience outside of contracted flying. SM was out. A tale of young lions. I hear BB's MCI hub alone lost over $40 million. F9 was DEN and was making money when BB acquired the carrier through the bankruptcy process. F9 was not MKE or MCI. That was all BB. F9 had simplified its fleet to one aircraft type during bankruptcy (except for the Qs whose days were numbered), but BB came along and thought he had found a home for all of his regional aircraft that no one else wanted. Then you had 37 and 50 seat ERJs, 76-seat E170s and 99-seat E190s flying under the F9 brand with BELFs well above 100%. The regional aircraft were notoriously bad operationally with maintenance issues, delays and cancellations. It was SM's cancellation of the original RAH E170 flying that opened the door for BB to use that claim against F9 to acquire them in bankruptcy. SM tried to simplify the operation but BB came in and complicated everything. Complexity adds costs. Every LCC knows that, but BB tried to make F9 a little UA or YX.

F9 was ready to go the next level, the Spirit ULCC level?, coming out of bankruptcy. BB had other ideas and thought he could run separate and confusing brands with F9 in DEN and YX in MKE, MCI and DCA. Everyone here knows how that worked out. BB picked the F9 brand over YX and thought he could win over the old YX passengers. The press as not kind, and it wasn't F9 that asked for any of it. BB wasted money painting aircraft in YX colors simply to turn around and paint ERJs in the F9 livery. They took forever just trying to get a codeshare between F9 and YX due to I.T. Issues. BB added fresh cookies and milk on all F9 flights, even though reports said half of the cookies went uneaten and were tossed out. Wasteful. Then, hot breakfasts and other fresh food options started appearing on most F9 flights. Wasteful. BB kept the Best Care Club in MKE but had no club in DEN. It was wasteful, inconsistent for service since one hub had it and the big hub did not, and the MKE club was eventually closed. BB moved a lot of corporate jobs to IND and maintenance to MKE and MCI. All of that is disruptive, costs money and makes for bad press. After I saw BB on the CBS Undercover Boss show I knew it was all about his ego and that he was in over his head. F9 has been in a downward spiral with an identity crisis since BB took over, but I'm happy to say that is being corrected with surprise, a hands off approach by the folks in IND.

It's aggravating to witness history and not relive it and wonder where F9 would be today if all of that time and money had been invested into a ULCC F9. I believe we would be talking about a different and stronger Spirit model F9 ready for an IPO with RAH ready to cash out and make some good money. But alas, here we are with more uncertainty.

I believe F9 is poised to take off. I also thought that right when it exited bankruptcy a few years ago, but that opportunity was squandered. I have higher hopes for Indigo and believe the deal will go through although I am perplexed that due diligence didn't show the pilot equity deal. That deal was made in good faith and it should be honored or settled in a way that is satisfactory to all parties. Indigo had to have known about the deal with the pilots before they started divesting their shares in Spirit and resigned from their board of directors. There must be more to the story and I'm sure the IBT is somehow involved.

F9 is sort of back to where it was when it came out of bankruptcy. It has one aircraft type. It has relocated most jobs back to DEN from IND. Maintenance is on its way back. And it's around 75% of the way to a true ULCC. Forget the hybrid model. It needs to go full blown ULCC. Love it or hate it passengers fly them and it makes the shareholders money.

What have I seen F9 doing lately to adapt to the new realities? MKE and MCI are gone. They are flying the A320 family only. Fresh food is gone. They have given back unnecessary airport real estate. They are outsourcing all non-DEN stations although I'm not crazy about that and think they should have kept their own personnel in some of the bigger stations. Got a new web site. Unbundling of services and fees continues. Charging for carry on bags for passengers who don't book on flyfrontier.com. Charging for non-alcoholic beverages for Economy and Basic passengers. Classic and Classic Plus get the full can for free. Pushing more passengers to book directly with F9. They aren't trying to fight it out with UA and WN on markets like DEN - ABQ. They are showing love with often less than daily frequencies to places like FAR and GSO. They've added extra rows of seats. And I love how they are growing their relationship with Apple. DEN - MBJ in December is a prime example of how that takes some of the risk off F9 to try new routes.

They can't quite push it to the next level, though, without some capital investment. Some things simply cost money and you need some money to make some more money. It's not impossible for F9 to do it on its own and I guess RAH could offer an IPO right now, but Indigo is the best case scenario. These guys want to make money and aren't inclined to experiment the way BB did. Capital can ensure the NEO order happens and the fuel savings that will bring. Capital can pay to remove a lav onboard and install lighter weight slimline seats with more rows are installed. Capital can pay to remove the heavy, obsolete LiveTV from the fleet. Capital can put the resources toward more bundling of vacation packages. Capital will allow F9 to expand the TTN model to other cities across the U.S. DEN will always be F9's largest operation but I don't think it will live or die by it like it has in the past. I think a look at Spirit's route map should give us an indication of what Indigo has planned. I would expect to see more focus cities like TTN and ILG.

This isn't your same old F9 and that is difficult for many to grasp. Conventional Wisdom needs to change. CW changed on Tower Road quite some time ago. I wish it would catch up for some on this board. F9 continues to break LF records so there is definitely room for another Spirit in the market. The business model change isn't always pretty to witness, but the old model was broken. I hope to ride the ride until it's over. Just the fact that Franke and Indigo are cashing out their profits at NK and willing to invest in F9 tells me that they see the potential in this piss ant airline. It will hopefully be a new and not final chapter for this great, little airline that could.



Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness
User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2002 posts, RR: 0
Reply 42, posted (1 year 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 13524 times:
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Quoting kingcavalier (Reply 41):

I agree KC, capital is needed to really run the airline in the fashion it needs to be. They need lighter seats, they need to get rid of the LIVETV (I certainly enjoy it but the ULCC model doesn't support it), and they certainly need the NEOs long term. Fuel savings is the order of the day. That being said Indigo is probably their best bet. Sure they don't like losing their equity shares but if the sale doesn't go thru, it is likely that they won't be worth the paper their written on. Could F9 perhaps go it alone, maybe it might work but odds are you wouldn't see any significant profits, probably just enough to keep it afloat. I won't sit here and say that this deal is fair but life isn't always about what is fair and sometimes you have to accept the fact that your going to get screwed over.

Likely no one will perticularly like life as a ULCC under Indigo but the other options aren't very pretty either. Lots of F9 employees say BB doesn't know what he's doing and maybe their right. Indigo has a track record of helping Spirit make money,

Lastly if we are going to have ULCC policies like charging for drinks and cracking down on carry-on size, we need ULCC pricing across the board. This hybrid thing isn't cutting it.

Good luck to all F9 employees but this might be a bitter pill you just might have to swallow.



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlinegustywinds From Armenia, joined Feb 2012, 141 posts, RR: 12
Reply 43, posted (1 year 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 13488 times:

Agree JerseyGuy

awacsooner - I've seen another Q&A but this is some of the first communication WN put out regarding their bid for F9. Mariner can confirm but I believe WN intended to immediately ground the A318 flying and there was a big question mark over Lynx. The F9 employee integration is discussed in the second link.

http://www.blogsouthwest.com/news/so...lines-bankruptcy-court-proceeding/

http://www.blogsouthwest.com/southwest-bids-frontier-airlines/


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13161 posts, RR: 100
Reply 44, posted (1 year 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 13464 times:
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Quoting point2point (Reply 35):
You think that this won't matter to the F9 pilots?

It will matter. But the analysis I've read, while limited in scope, imply that if F9 is spun off, it will be with the debt and there isn't much that can be done about it.   

Quoting point2point (Reply 38):
Yes, but I do believe that all parties to a contract have to be agreeable to any renegotiations. One party in a contract cannot alone change terms.

Of course. Hence why I commented that the unions need to be brought fully into the negotiations. I do not believe what was promised allows F9 to be sold at a price any buyer would seriously consider. Republic has a responsibility to do what is best for their investors, not the pilots. There is no reason to spin off a company with less debt just because one union group feels they are entitled. Every analysis I've read on Republic spinning off Frontier is with the debt. It sounds as if that debt was tied to the airline a long time ago.

In a sale, how much debt is taken is negotiable. Its part of the sales price. In a spinoff, it is all what debt was tied to F9 earlier.

I suspect this deal will fall through. It will be interesting to see how Frontier does on their own.

Quoting kingcavalier (Reply 41):
Instead, BB squandered resources and time, capital which should have gone into what Indigo is hopefully getting ready to do.

That we can agree on. However, its too late to turn back the clock...

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 42):
capital is needed to really run the airline in the fashion it needs to be.

Only Indigo would invest enough. I think Frontier could get by for a while. But they will need the capital to re-align the product. There are other ways to come up with the money. Alas, I'm not sure what mechanism would work to provide the funds... I do not know.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinegustywinds From Armenia, joined Feb 2012, 141 posts, RR: 12
Reply 45, posted (1 year 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 13436 times:

This is the best link to illustrate the uncertainty of the F9 employees during WN's failed bid attempt.

http://www.blogsouthwest.com/news/li...iscuss-southwest’s-bid-frontier/

It's a transcript of a conference call held by WN execs and the Q & A with different news outlets. It says WN would've immediately dropped 20% of F9's Airbus flying, basically taking it down to 40 aircraft. They do say they thought Lynx was profitable and would keep it flying. It discusses Mccaskill-Bond legislation but they never say they would fair and equitably merge F9's employees with WN's employees. They discuss attrition at WN and say F9 employees would need to interview. It's a great read if you want to relive what happened.


User currently offlineF9animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5065 posts, RR: 28
Reply 46, posted (1 year 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 13220 times:

I can't blame the pilots one bit for standing their ground. If Indigo is that hell bent on screwing over the pilots, it just shows how much vision they have for their potential employees. Mentioned earlier, could Air Wisconsin take a chance and buy F9? Sure! However, they would have to be much smarter than Republic was. BB and his crew royally screwed the pooch, and clearly mismanaged almost every aspect of combining YX and F9. Plenty of terrible decisions, and costly knee jerking moves. BB and crew wasted millions upon millions of dollars, and obviously had no Idea of what they were doing. F9 would have been much better if they had not inherited YX's mess. I am sure BB still wishes he had never combined the two.

Anyways, I suspect Siegel and BB are using scare tactics to force further concessions from the workers. Indigo has to accept the fact that they are buying a good airline, and some amazing employees. Indigo also needs to understand that these employees have been through absolute hell, and absolutely terrible leadership. If Indigo thinks for a minute that it can start snatching anything it wants from employees, they will have a rude awakening. The pilots alone have saved F9 more than once. Wish the employees could just buy the airline.



I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlinecapejet From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 75 posts, RR: 0
Reply 47, posted (1 year 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 12993 times:
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So I guess the way it works is pilots go to work for the Ultra Low Cost Carrier and work longer hours at lower pay rates, so the ULCC can then have $9 sales (Spirit Airlines). So that is what Frontier will be all about when Indigo takes over?

User currently offlineVS11 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 1111 posts, RR: 0
Reply 48, posted (1 year 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 12904 times:

The F9 story is certainly fascinating - somehow the WSJ article is open through a google search and the key points in it are :

1. "In 2011, Frontier agreed to give its pilots an equity stake in the company or a $7.2 million cash settlement in exchange for cuts to their pay and benefits, according to regulatory filings. Indigo would like to terminate or reduce promised equity stakes for Frontier's pilots and flight attendants, these people and another person familiar with the talks said."

2. "Indigo is negotiating with the Frontier Airlines Pilots Association," and that's the union that negotiated the deal in 2011. However, "the International Brotherhood of Teamsters replaced the association as the aviators' representative and sued Frontier in federal court to annul the agreement that promised the equity stake, according to the filings. Litigation is continuing.".." Craig Moffatt, head of the local Teamsters chapter, said his union legally represents all Republic pilots, including Frontier's. "Indigo is talking to the wrong pilots," he said."

3. "Indigo is also far apart in talks over the equity stake with Frontier's flight attendants, though the two sides are negotiating, people familiar with the talks said."

4. "...any deal would likely include Indigo-owned Frontier assuming hundreds of millions of dollars of liabilities, according to the two people familiar with Indigo's thinking. One of the people said that in addition to any liabilities, Indigo would pay between $20 million and $50 million to Republic for Frontier."

It looks like Indigo is trying to work it out with the pilots and FA's who got shares in F9. As shareholders in F9, the pilots and FA's could be bought out just as RAH is. If they want to continue to be shareholders alongside Indigo then it is almost a given that in the new capital structure of the firm, their shares will be valued less as the company will supposedly have hundreds of millions of dollars in debt.

Also, if the pilots and FAs decide that they want to cash out their shares to Indigo, they have to agree to a price. Logically, this shouldn't be that difficult as if Indigo and RAH agree on a sale transaction then they are technically setting a fair market value of F9. Now the pilots and FA's may disagree to what that fair market value is but in the end of the day, their options may be limited by the fact that they are minority shareholders in F9.

If the deal with Indigo fails, is F9 going to have to file for bankruptcy? If yes, then the pilots and FA's don't have much bargaining power as they can lose their shares or the value of them. And whomever the creditors of F9 are could easily sell their claims to Indigo or some other investor group, which can then assume ownership of F9 in which case the pilots and FA's could be in a more disadvantageous situation. Also, what are the implications for RAH if F9 goes bankrupt? And what is really out there to stop Indigo from setting up an operation identical to what they envision for F9, in the case the current deal fails and F9 has to be liquidated?

Somehow I find the Frontier story much more fascinating than let's say AA/US merger and I really hope they make it through.


User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2002 posts, RR: 0
Reply 49, posted (1 year 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 12720 times:
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Quoting VS11 (Reply 48):
One of the people said that in addition to any liabilities, Indigo would pay between $20 million and $50 million to Republic for Frontier

how many pilot/FAs does Frontier have? 200. Hoping its more towards $50 million lets say $35M, Republic pays each pilot $100K and each FA $60K they still get $20M and the debts from Frontier paid off. Everyone wins



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineVS11 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 1111 posts, RR: 0
Reply 50, posted (1 year 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 12608 times:

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 49):
how many pilot/FAs does Frontier have? 200. Hoping its more towards $50 million lets say $35M, Republic pays each pilot $100K and each FA $60K they still get $20M and the debts from Frontier paid off. Everyone wins

I doubt it is so simple. We don't know what the equity deal was - it must have been more appealing than the $7.2m in cash offered. No idea if it was options or shares offered, and if they were offered upfront or over a period of time - technically, they are earned through cheaper labor but the labor still needs to occur.

There are 3 stakeholder groups and any 2 can gang up against the 3rd. Obviously, we can exclude RAH and pilots/FA against Indigo as that keeps the status quo which RAH wants to get away from. Can Indigo and pilots/FA gang up on RAH? Possibly. Theoretically, both RAH and pilots/FA's have aligned interests by being shareholders. Can Indigo and RAH gang up on the pilots/FA? Quite possibly. Does RAH have an obligation to negotiate also on behalf of the pilot/FA's owners or are they supposed to get their own deals?

Besides, what is it that the pilots/FA's owner groups want? They showed team spirit (in my opinion) by signing up to be shareholders for less pay but is that what they still want to do under the new management/strategy, or do they want more pay now? It wouldn't be illogical for them to want to stay on as shareholders in view of the success that Spirit is perceived to be but who knows. I hope they find a way for a win-win-win.


User currently offlinesunking737 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2049 posts, RR: 8
Reply 51, posted (1 year 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 12607 times:

Don't be surprised in BB & Co drop all their debt on F9 and F9 file Chap 11 again. Indigo could buy F9 with a debtor financing loan. Shareholders and employees be damned.


Just an MSPAVGEEK
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7234 posts, RR: 13
Reply 52, posted (1 year 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 12472 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
According to reports, Indigo is not expected to reach a deal by Monday with negotiations with the pilots union being a central sticking point.
Quoting point2point (Reply 1):
If Indigo walks, BB still has to find a buyer, or figure out a way to get the pilots and others what is due to them.

Well they should not have made a deal they did not intend to honor. Having said that, the pilots have little choice...as usual. I said that this was coming as soon as it was announced...and by the way...they will also ask for more concessions.

Quoting Jamake1 (Reply 3):
Indeed. Indigo Partners reportedly wants Frontier employees to give up their right to an equity stake (due them) in the event that Frontier is sold. The equity stake was made in exchange for wage and benefit concessions.
Quoting awacsooner (Reply 9):
Monday morning quarterbacking, they should have sold to WN...

I've been saying that since they offered to, but everybody laughed at me and said WN was evil and was going to lay everybody off while BB was a white knight who would lead them to the promised land.

Quoting point2point (Reply 10):
Uh huh.... and the pilots right now be sitting on their couches for the last two years without a job........
Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 15):
Please explain that. They later brought AirTran and not ONE guy was thrown to the street.

The reality is that for those of us who did not see it coming, it is hard to imagine WN treating F9 employees worse than BB has.

Quoting Jerseyguy (Reply 8):
Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 8):
Will it result in imminent bankruptcy?? I don't know much about F9, I just know that I have flights booked in a fortnight that I don't want to lose.

I doubt you have anything to worry about.

Eventual bankruptcy

Quoting flyby519 (Reply 18):
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 18):

Ok I'm not a frontier expert like mariner, but I gotta wonder....what's stopping F9 from standing alone again?

They don't have a leg to stand on. They are a 3rd place (out of 3) carrier in their home base of DEN.

Yes, they are screwed. They need a buyer, plus BB has no idea what to do with F9.

Quoting sunking737 (Reply 51):
Don't be surprised in BB & Co drop all their debt on F9 and F9 file Chap 11 again. Indigo could buy F9 with a debtor financing loan. Shareholders and employees be damned.

They can't. Too many cross defaults in their aircraft financing. All of RJET goes down too.


User currently offlineplanesntrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5590 posts, RR: 29
Reply 53, posted (1 year 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 12401 times:

Quoting F9animal (Reply 46):

Anyways, I suspect Siegel and BB are using scare tactics to force further concessions from the workers. Indigo has to accept the fact that they are buying a good airline, and some amazing employees. Indigo also needs to understand that these employees have been through absolute hell, and absolutely terrible leadership. If Indigo thinks for a minute that it can start snatching anything it wants from employees, they will have a rude awakening. The pilots alone have saved F9 more than once. Wish the employees could just buy the airline.

1. It's only a "scare tactic" if it's not based on reality. F9 is in a tough spot with few options.

2. It's irrelevent (IMHO) that F9 is a good airline with amazing employees. Indigo is playing a numbers game. Period.

3. I think if the pilots (for example) think they can in any way dictate to Indigo how things are going to go, Indigo will walk. If they haven't already.

Now, to avoid the inevitable flame, I'm not saying that I feel that way, wish ill will on F9's employees, support Indigo's lust for profit, etc. Everyone can decide for themselves how they feel. I'm just saying what I think Indigo is going to focus on, which is making money.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 49):
how many pilot/FAs does Frontier have? 200. Hoping its more towards $50 million lets say $35M, Republic pays each pilot $100K and each FA $60K they still get $20M and the debts from Frontier paid off. Everyone wins

It's going to be tough because I think BB first and foremost wants (needs) to do a sale. However, as soon as that option is present, he is going to want to get every million that he can get out of it for RAH. If that means screwing over the pilots and F/A's in some manner, sobeit. I'm not saying this because I think he has ill will towards them, but rather because he has ultimately squandered many millions of dollars in money spent and profit's lost through his F9 venture - he NEEDS to redeem every one of those dollars spent if at all possible.

Quoting enilria (Reply 52):
I've been saying that since they offered to, but everybody laughed at me and said WN was evil and was going to lay everybody off while BB was a white knight who would lead them to the promised land.

This statement is a complete exaggeration from beginning to end. Clearly there were people across the spectrum on the potential WN acquisition of F9, including the employees of F9 themselves.

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25328 posts, RR: 85
Reply 54, posted (1 year 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 12391 times:
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Quoting enilria (Reply 52):
I've been saying that since they offered to, but everybody laughed at me and said WN was evil and was going to lay everybody off while BB was a white knight who would lead them to the promised land.

I don't know who "everybody" is. Most on a.net believed the sale to Southwest would go through and thought it a good thing.

I made myself extremely unpopular here by saying that Southwest had not offered enough money and did not understand the way the Republic deal was structured - which Southwest CEO Kelly effectively confirmed after the event:

http://blogs.westword.com/latestword...southwest_still_shopping_after.php

"In a Denver Business Journal synopsis of that piece (which is behind a paid wall), Kelly concedes that Southwest was "probably a little late getting into the game. Unbeknown to us, Republic had already formulated its own plan."

I dunno how it could be "unbeknown" - everything Republic did was in plain sight, in the public domain. I live in New Zealand and I knew.

But I do remember you telling me I knew nothing about accounting.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7234 posts, RR: 13
Reply 55, posted (1 year 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 12278 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 54):
Most on a.net believed the sale to Southwest would go through and thought it a good thing.

I was vilified and virtually alone. Everybody was sold a bill of goods that BB was offering employment guarantees (which he never did) while WN was promising nothing. A promise of nothing from WN is worth more than no promise from BB.


User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2763 posts, RR: 1
Reply 56, posted (1 year 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 12234 times:

Quoting planesntrains (Reply 53):
because he has ultimately squandered many millions of dollars in money spent and profit's lost through his F9 venture

Is it possible here to say that it was the YX venture, rather than the F9 venture that caused the squandering of many millions of dollars spent and profits lost? It's kind of hard to imagine what would have been, since it hasn't been, but I only have to ask the following.....

Would F9 be in stronger position today - a) with the YX merger?.... or b) without the YX merger?

I myself think that b is probably the correct answer, and as F9 got dragged into the YX mess with BB, that's when millions of $$$$$ got whirl-winded out of F9's (but really RAH's) pocketbooks. Can we assume the numbers for this some $70-$100M?

So.... is it all F9 (or any, really) that has all this debt onto the books at RAH?

Now, IIRC, I also have to think that some priority of BB at the beginning was to keep a combined airline as large as possible, and to keep as many employees as possible at the time. Would anyone disagree with that? So maybe technically some of those millions squandered probably went to employees? And maybe to the expense of RAH, BB had too many employees for his envisioned operation from the beginning?

So now...... hmmmmmmm.....? BB/RAH would not really want to pay for this?

I have to imagine that flying regional jets from an MKE hub proved to be more costly of a venture than anticipated (to say the least) and this expense needs to given to management. RAH was supposedly to get its fee for flying the regionals there, so I have to wonder how mismanaged this thing became?

Quoting enilria (Reply 52):
The reality is that for those of us who did not see it coming, it is hard to imagine WN treating F9 employees worse than BB has.

Whatever else has to be said about BB, I do think that he showed a good faith effort in the beginning to keep as many employees as possible...... again, does anyone want to disagree here? That being said, I do think that short term F9 employees benefited with BB and RAH. However, long term, where we are now, WN would have not incurred so much loss...... they probably would have just let go any unnecessary personal go early on, since DEN (and most everywhere else in the WN system) became redundant to WN. And I do think that at this point its safer to say that RAH placed a much better effort on retaining employees of F9 (and then some from YX also, yes?)

 


User currently offlineVS11 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 1111 posts, RR: 0
Reply 57, posted (1 year 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 12228 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 55):
A promise of nothing from WN is worth more than no promise from BB.

No offense but that could hardly be true. Anyone can promise nothing. You cannot fault RAH for trying various ways to make F9 a profitable stand-alone carrier. I don't really follow Frontier closely so I don't know what's preventing RAH to adopt the ULCC strategy for F9, which Indigo reportedly wants to apply? If that's the only viable strategy why can't RAH do it? Even if F9 becomes a ULCC with Indigo, it is still way better than being shut down by WN.


User currently offlinerj777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1857 posts, RR: 2
Reply 58, posted (1 year 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 12175 times:

Well, unless they can pull off an 11th hour miracle, I'd say the deal is off.

User currently offlineplanesntrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5590 posts, RR: 29
Reply 59, posted (1 year 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 12127 times:

Quoting point2point (Reply 56):
Quoting planesntrains (Reply 53):because he has ultimately squandered many millions of dollars in money spent and profit's lost through his F9 venture
Is it possible here to say that it was the YX venture, rather than the F9 venture that caused the squandering of many millions of dollars spent and profits lost?

I think it's all part of the bigger effort at taking on mainline flying. F9. YX. It's all the same umbrella of failure I'd imagine.

Quoting VS11 (Reply 57):
I don't really follow Frontier closely so I don't know what's preventing RAH to adopt the ULCC strategy for F9, which Indigo reportedly wants to apply? If that's the only viable strategy why can't RAH do it? Even if F9 becomes a ULCC with Indigo, it is still way better than being shut down by WN.

Money. RAH has drawn a line in the sand isn't going to invest in F9 anymore - too much money and too much risk. They are trying to cut their losses by letting someone else take it from here. IMHO.

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25328 posts, RR: 85
Reply 60, posted (1 year 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 12149 times:
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Quoting VS11 (Reply 57):
I don't really follow Frontier closely so I don't know what's preventing RAH to adopt the ULCC strategy for F9, which Indigo reportedly wants to apply? If that's the only viable strategy why can't RAH do it? Even if F9 becomes a ULCC with Indigo, it is still way better than being shut down by WN.

Republic has adopted the ULCC policy for Frontier already. This article is from January 2012, when the process had been underway for some time:

http://crankyflier.com/2012/01/30/fr...urse-as-an-ultra-low-cost-carrier/

"Frontier Charts Its Course as an Ultra Low Cost Carrier"

The Republic Board of Directors had insisted that they get out of the branded airline business. The FAPA agreement of March 2011(small ownership participation by the pilots and f/a's) was part of the process of that separation.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2002 posts, RR: 0
Reply 61, posted (1 year 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 12019 times:
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Quoting mariner (Reply 60):
Republic has adopted the ULCC policy for Frontier already. This article is from January 2012, when the process had been underway for some time:

So what is the date for the uninstalling of the LiveTV and installing more fuel effecient seats?



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User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25328 posts, RR: 85
Reply 62, posted (1 year 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 11967 times:
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Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 61):
So what is the date for the uninstalling of the LiveTV and installing more fuel effecient seats?

I've no idea. I assume that some of it at least depends on the outcome tomorrow and the implications of that.

As it presently stands, I believe N220FR - the new A320 with sharklets - will not have tv installed, but if there is to be a new ownership structure I guess that could change and If there is not to be a new ownership structure, I don't know what will happen.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2002 posts, RR: 0
Reply 63, posted (1 year 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 11934 times:
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I sincerely hope there is a plan B because PLAN A doesn't look to be working out.


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User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25532 posts, RR: 50
Reply 64, posted (1 year 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 11809 times:

Well any Plan B probably be dependent on how long RAH is willing to fund F9.

From the sounds of the marching orders Bryan Bedford has received from the board sounds like they want their hands clean of F9 sooner rather than later.

Headed into winter, with a still weak US economy and fuel above $100/bbl, F9 certainly will depend on RAH funding ongoing operations and covering its typical losses.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineSLCPilot From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 587 posts, RR: 2
Reply 65, posted (1 year 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 11689 times:

So? Could tomorrow end F9 operations?

My take? BB bought in a an anticipation of another UA bankruptcy and thought he would step into a void and have airplanes to fill the Denver O/D. He gambled, and lost.

Furthermore, very few of the people who have actually worked for BB at either F9 or RAH in the rank and file seem to be happy with him, or at least that what most forums suggest. Am I wrong?

My experiences with the frontline employees at F9 have been overwhelmingly positive. It's sad to see their leadership let them down. I doubt anybody would suggest otherwise.

Tomorrow we'll see.

SLCPilot



I don't like to be fueled by anger, I don't like to be fooled by lust...
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2763 posts, RR: 1
Reply 66, posted (1 year 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 11645 times:

Quoting SLCPilot (Reply 65):
Could tomorrow end F9 operations?

No.

Quoting SLCPilot (Reply 65):
very few of the people who have actually worked for BB at either F9 or RAH in the rank and file seem to be happy with him, or at least that what most forums suggest. Am I wrong?

Good question.......

Quoting SLCPilot (Reply 65):
My experiences with the frontline employees at F9 have been overwhelmingly positive.

  

 


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7654 posts, RR: 18
Reply 67, posted (1 year 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 11500 times:

Well today's the day.....any improvements?


我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently onlineMIflyer12 From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 1052 posts, RR: 0
Reply 68, posted (1 year 1 day ago) and read 11295 times:

Check back at the end of the business day in IND.

User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7234 posts, RR: 13
Reply 69, posted (1 year 1 day ago) and read 11269 times:

Quoting point2point (Reply 56):
Whatever else has to be said about BB, I do think that he showed a good faith effort in the beginning to keep as many employees as possible...... again, does anyone want to disagree here? That being said, I do think that short term F9 employees benefited with BB and RAH. However, long term, where we are now, WN would have not incurred so much loss.

Short-term/long-term...F9 laid off virtually every employee outside Denver. I'm not sure that was keeping as many employees as possible. It is following the ULCC philosophy, however. I don't think they have the management skills to succeed as an ULCC. NK is going to crush them if they don't have Indigo backing them. I'd expect NK to sit on them if they try anything where NK is established.

Quoting VS11 (Reply 57):
No offense but that could hardly be true. Anyone can promise nothing. You cannot fault RAH for trying various ways to make F9 a profitable stand-alone carrier. I don't really follow Frontier closely so I don't know what's preventing RAH to adopt the ULCC strategy for F9, which Indigo reportedly wants to apply?

Back when Southwest was attempting to buy F9 they said that they would not guarantee they would take all F9 employees, while BB was simply silent. Somehow people decided that BB's silence was better than WN's comment. As I said at the time, that was ill-founded faith. While I do not think WN management is that good compared to say, Delta (which can be merciless, but knows how to make money), I think WN can run rings around BB and company. The much better horse to bet on was WN and we'd probably still have a stand-alone FL now in that scenario which I think would be doing fine alone.

Quoting rj777 (Reply 58):
Well, unless they can pull off an 11th hour miracle, I'd say the deal is off.

I'm not so sure of that. This smells of pressure intended to break the pilots which is standard fair in these things and something I said would be coming, but having said that...the pilots are screwed. They have no choice. I have no doubt that the pilots are stopping the deal. I also have no doubt that they are rightly owed what they are asking for. They simply have no leverage and have no option except to fold their hand. It's sad, but that's the situation they are in...and frankly it was set in motion when they chose BB over WN years ago. I remember posting that even if the whole F9 pilot corp moved down to co-pilot at WN, something like 80% would not make less money because WN's rates are so high compared to F9. Boat missed...

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 64):
From the sounds of the marching orders Bryan Bedford has received from the board sounds like they want their hands clean of F9 sooner rather than later.

I agree with that. It sounds like BB's only option if he cannot IPO it (which would seem pretty unlikely), would be a gradual wind-down which would probably take at least 24 months while attempting to place the existing aircraft. The only other option is an RJET Ch11.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 67):
Well today's the day.....any improvements?

We'll see. I don't expect it to be resolved today, but who knows.


User currently offlineCarsAir04 From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 162 posts, RR: 1
Reply 70, posted (1 year 23 hours ago) and read 11187 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 69):
I'm not so sure of that. This smells of pressure intended to break the pilots which is standard fair in these things and something I said would be coming, but having said that...the pilots are screwed.

Some of the things I have seen, it is sad to see some of the pitting the pilots against the non-union employees. If you give this up, we will give them raises stuff. That in itself is not fair of the management and can you even trust that? BB said all that stuff back in the day to give the 10% back to employees and never did, who is to say the new place will. And what will the pilots get if they give up the equity, what do they get? OK, the company gets a new owner, but do they get raises too? A lot of questions that need answering I think..


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7654 posts, RR: 18
Reply 71, posted (1 year 23 hours ago) and read 11188 times:

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 68):
Check back at the end of the business day in IND.

So that's probably about 5-6 hours from now.....jeez. I'll be sound asleep....


here's a (half-joking) thought- mariner seems to be the guy to go to for knowledge of F9- why doesn't he buy stake in F9 and sit on the board?   



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlinerj777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1857 posts, RR: 2
Reply 72, posted (1 year 23 hours ago) and read 11172 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 71):
here's a (half-joking) thought- mariner seems to be the guy to go to for knowledge of F9

And another (half-joking) funny thing, he's from New Zealand! Wonder how he knows all this stuff!


User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7234 posts, RR: 13
Reply 73, posted (1 year 23 hours ago) and read 11093 times:

Quoting CarsAir04 (Reply 70):
That in itself is not fair of the management and can you even trust that?

Oh it's crazy to negotiate a deal to give up equity, see the value of the company increase (financial performance is better now than then) and then demand it be taken away in exchange for nothing. OTOH, I think that is what is going to happen.

Quoting CarsAir04 (Reply 70):
And what will the pilots get if they give up the equity, what do they get?

Nothing I'm sure. They certainly won't get a pay increase...at least not in the short term.

This all has to do with Indigo's strategy. These are the steps in their plan:
1) Buy F9 for peanuts
2) Get costs to a bare minimum
3) Duplicate NK ULCC strategy
4) Report a year of profits
5) IPO the company
6) Sell their stake for several hundred million

Letting the pilots have a stake complicates things in #2 and #5/6, plus they have to tell the pilots pretty much everything the company is doing which they otherwise can't. Presumably the pilots will want to dump their stake immediately in #5 which hurts Indigo's opportunity to time their own sale for max profits.

Quoting rj777 (Reply 72):
And another (half-joking) funny thing, he's from New Zealand! Wonder how he knows all this stuff!

He wasn't always...


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3157 posts, RR: 1
Reply 74, posted (1 year 22 hours ago) and read 10979 times:

Quoting kingcavalier (Reply 19):
I doubt F9 would be here today if it hadn't adapted to changing business models

I wouldn't call a route(s) addition or deletion a biz model change. The change from a LCC to ULCC meets the mode criteria. If you are saying they wouldn't fly to airports such as EUG in a LCC model; perhaps. In my mind F9 is currently operating as a hybrid.

Quoting kingcavalier (Reply 19):
I believe the Indigo deal will go through.

Base on what I read in the two company bio's Indigo is more airline driven. I'll stay reserved about Franke for the time being.

Quoting gustywinds (Reply 22):
They said some employees and those would have to reapply for any open position at WN.

I look at WN position vacancies once a week or so and have done so for several years. There weren't a lot of jobs at WN; at least not what I would expect from a carrier the size of WN. In any merger and acquisition (M&A) New positions would have been created but nowhere near one-for-one I don't favor mass hiring events in M&A. From a leadership perspective you have to have filters which would weed out less desired employees.

Quoting SLCPilot (Reply 65):
So? Could tomorrow end F9 operations?

[quote=point2point,reply=66]No.

In the fifteen or so years I followed F9; the sky has yet to fall. The Doomsday prognosticators have predicted the demise of the carrier on more than one occasion. In the survivorbility arena I accept F9 to be the little engine that could. If you give it some true thought it's plane (spelling pun intended) to see. How can I not think about the Alan Jackson ballad "The Little Man" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01Ehf1F97bY



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25328 posts, RR: 85
Reply 75, posted (1 year 19 hours ago) and read 10655 times:
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Quoting LAXintl (Reply 64):
From the sounds of the marching orders Bryan Bedford has received from the board sounds like they want their hands clean of F9 sooner rather than later.

Not quite.

The BOD was ready to see the back of Midwest/Frontier at the end of 2010, but BB (and others, including Siegel) were able to persuade them that there was money to be made with Frontier/DEN.

That stil holds true. It was never the plan that "the investor" - any investor - would take 100% of Frontier, only a majority stake.

As in the FAPA agreement of March 2011, Republic would continue to hold a minority stake - anything from, say, 10% to 40% - and thus would participate in the eventual IPO. That IPO, as BB said, would be where the money is made.

This is why the glitch over the pilot ownership puzzles me. Unless there has been a dramatic change (which is always possible), Indigo was never going to own 100% of Frontier. Indigo didn't own 100% of Spirit - Oaktree retained a bunch and didn't sell until the IPO.

mariner

[Edited 2013-09-30 12:19:43]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineairfrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2826 posts, RR: 42
Reply 76, posted (1 year 15 hours ago) and read 10173 times:

Quoting VS11 (Reply 48):

2. "Indigo is negotiating with the Frontier Airlines Pilots Association," and that's the union that negotiated the deal in 2011. However, "the International Brotherhood of Teamsters replaced the association as the aviators' representative and sued Frontier in federal court to annul the agreement that promised the equity stake, according to the filings. Litigation is continuing.".." Craig Moffatt, head of the local Teamsters chapter, said his union legally represents all Republic pilots, including Frontier's. "Indigo is talking to the wrong pilots," he said."

This is a bigger deal then people have been acknowledging.My suspicion is that a good chunk of what is going on right now is yet another turf war between RJET pilots and F9 pilots. People keep asking why F9 pilots are acting in a way that is contrary to their interests, and why Indigo isn't negotiating. I don't think either is the case, but that IBT would much rather see F9 go down in flames, then possibly deal with the precedent that allows BB or anyone else to grab ownership from any pilots union, anywhere in the nation.


User currently offlineairfrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2826 posts, RR: 42
Reply 77, posted (1 year 14 hours ago) and read 10300 times:

From the Denver Post this morning:

But the heart of the issue — and the lawsuit — comes down to a representational dispute that goes back to 2011 and could become an issue with the pending sale.

According to Craig Moffatt, International Brotherhood of Teamsters Airline Division's Local 357 executive board president, the purpose of the letter is simply to make sure that the current and future owners know whom to come to regarding contracts.

"It's not meant to be a threat; it is meant to tell them there is a rightful representative," Moffatt said. "And if this thing (the sale) is contingent on pilots giving up certain things, then you are talking to the wrong people."


User currently offlineJA From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 566 posts, RR: 1
Reply 78, posted (1 year 14 hours ago) and read 10110 times:

I am not sure why Indigo needs the pilots and flight attendants to give up their stake. I wouldn't do that. Frankly, I don't think Frontier needs any more money to get to where it needs to be. It may need more aircraft, but the focus now should be to generate revenue. I don't think there is a whole lot of fat left and ultimately, one needs a little fat to be customer friendly. I think that they can improve their revenue generation somewhat.

Personally, I would position Frontier as the "flexible" ULCC and figure out how to get into the smaller markets again. We know that Southwest and Spirit aren't going there. They would have significant pricing power in those markets.


User currently offlineCarsAir04 From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 162 posts, RR: 1
Reply 79, posted (1 year 13 hours ago) and read 9959 times:

Well they must be talking into the evening. I haven't heard a word from friends at Frontier, or seen anything come out quite yet.

User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7234 posts, RR: 13
Reply 80, posted (1 year 12 hours ago) and read 9839 times:

Quoting JA (Reply 78):
I am not sure why Indigo needs the pilots and flight attendants to give up their stake.

As I said above there are two or three reasons. First, they simply don't want to have to tell the pilots everything they are doing since they will be privately held, they would otherwise not have to tell anybody anything. Second, depending how big this stake is they may need to vote on things and the pilots would get a vote. Third, when they inevitably IPO it they want to control the sale of stock so the pilots don't immediately dump their stake and foul the market for Indigo selling their part. It's all selfish reasons, but I can see why.


User currently offlineVS11 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 1111 posts, RR: 0
Reply 81, posted (1 year 11 hours ago) and read 9629 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 80):
Third, when they inevitably IPO it they want to control the sale of stock so the pilots don't immediately dump their stake and foul the market for Indigo selling their part. It's all selfish reasons, but I can see why.

IPOs are much more controlled processes, and usually there is a period after the IPO during which inside parties can't sell so that can't be really a concern.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25532 posts, RR: 50
Reply 82, posted (1 year 9 hours ago) and read 9452 times:

Looks like they reached a deal per WSJ


Indigo to Acquire Frontier Airlines
http://goo.gl/F6V9xi


Announcement on Tuesday. Largely non cash-deal with Indigo assuming Frontier debt.
Deal still subject to reaching labor agreements.

Indigo says it will seek to turn Frontier into an ultralow-cost carrier, likely turn its focus away from Denver,



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2002 posts, RR: 0
Reply 83, posted (1 year 9 hours ago) and read 9328 times:
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Quoting WSJ Article,reply=:
Mr. Franke plans to turn Frontier into an ultralow-cost carrier, a more extreme version of the traditional discount airline that cuts costs and fares with tactics such as packing more seats onto planes and charging for extras that previously were free, a person familiar with his thinking has said

I don't want to take this as gospel but it appears that they will reduce seat pitch and go full Spirit (not that Frontiers current configuration is anything to write home about). It will be interesting to see what kind of advantage the NEOs give F9 when they come out. Its too bad that they won't be delivered till probably mid 2016 or later. Hopefully they won't reduce the number of stretch seats because as a new Ascent member I won't get stretch seating for free till check-in and the idea of 28" seating doesn't sound too great to me.

How long do you think it will take for them to start changing the configurations? Also do stretch seating apply to traveling companions in the same reservation for Ascent?

Quoting WSJ Article,reply=:
the two sides agreed to a deal in principle that is subject to a number of conditions, including a labor agreement with the pilots

So its not a done deal they still have to convince the pilots and FAs to give up their equity



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineF9animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5065 posts, RR: 28
Reply 84, posted (1 year 8 hours ago) and read 9282 times:

Denver is going to be dismatled. Thousands more jobs will be lost.


I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25328 posts, RR: 85
Reply 85, posted (1 year 8 hours ago) and read 9265 times:
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Quoting LAXintl (Reply 82):
Indigo says it will seek to turn Frontier into an ultralow-cost carrier, likely turn its focus away from Denver,

In the version I read, it wasn't Indigo or Franke that spoke about Denver, it was an analyst giving her opinion.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineplanesntrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5590 posts, RR: 29
Reply 86, posted (1 year 8 hours ago) and read 9178 times:

Quoting F9animal (Reply 84):
Denver is going to be dismatled. Thousands more jobs will be lost.

Perhaps.

However, Indigo isn't buying Frontier to shut them down. They will want those employees, even if they aren't in DEN. I'm guessing that most people will have a job though it might mean transferring for some.

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25328 posts, RR: 85
Reply 87, posted (1 year 8 hours ago) and read 9190 times:
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Quoting planesntrains (Reply 86):
Perhaps

I think a few people might be jumping the gun.

In Daniel Shurz's letter to the staff today, he said they are rearranging the GO - at Denver - to accommodate more people as functions come back from Indianapolis.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3478 posts, RR: 0
Reply 88, posted (1 year 7 hours ago) and read 9108 times:

They will certainly shrink Denver and seek more point to point flying.

User currently offlineairliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 1398 posts, RR: 2
Reply 89, posted (1 year 2 hours ago) and read 8868 times:

I have to say, I am very excited to see what happens.

Quoting planesntrains (Reply 86):

They will want employees but even more will probably be outsourced.



You will either love or hate the airline industry. If you love it, it will get in your blood and it will never leave.
User currently offlinejfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3508 posts, RR: 5
Reply 90, posted (1 year 1 hour ago) and read 8742 times:

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 89):
I have to say, I am very excited to see what happens.

Like looking at a building on fire from a sfae distance huh?

I bet pilots at F9 aren'y gee golly "very excited" this morning.


User currently offlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 695 posts, RR: 3
Reply 91, posted (1 year 1 hour ago) and read 8656 times:

"...transaction valued at approximately $145 million, of which $36 million (subject to certain adjustments under the purchase agreement) is to be paid in cash for the equity of Frontier Holdings and the balance is indebtedness that will be retained by Frontier. In addition, Indigo plans to invest additional funds directly in Frontier after the closing."

"...under a separate agreement, Republic will assign to Frontier all of Republic's rights under agreements relating to the Republic's Airbus A320neo order in exchange for reimbursement of pre-delivery deposits, which total $32 million."

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/rep...ines-to-indigo-partners-2013-10-01


User currently offlinefreakyrat From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 872 posts, RR: 1
Reply 92, posted (1 year 1 hour ago) and read 8653 times:
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Quoting JA Reply 78

"Personally, I would position Frontier as the "flexible" ULCC and figure out how to get into the smaller markets again. We know that Southwest and Spirit aren't going there. They would have significant pricing power in those markets."

Yes like returning to SBN. In the 11 months they were there they served over 21,000 passengers each way and at an average fare of 118.00 each way they took in some $4,962,000 dollars in air fares not counting bag fees etc. There is no way it costs them 4 million dollars to operate that A319 there including all expenses. I think they made close to 2 million dollars off the flights not counting the 700,000 in subsidy money they burned through. I think they will digest everything and figure out how to return and make it continually profitable and not just in the spring and summer. The last few months they served the market they even had standbys for the flights. They just jumped the gun to fast and I think in hindsight they think they shouldn't have done it with the number of complaints they are getting from people who used the flights.


User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7234 posts, RR: 13
Reply 93, posted (1 year ago) and read 8607 times:

Quoting queb (Reply 91):

"...transaction valued at approximately $145 million, of which $36 million (subject to certain adjustments under the purchase agreement) is to be paid in cash for the equity of Frontier Holdings and the balance is indebtedness that will be retained by Frontier. In addition, Indigo plans to invest additional funds directly in Frontier after the closing."

So basically they paid nothing, but if they can make it profitable RJET gets $36m...the value of one new plane. Pretty sad. So much for the talk of it being worth $100m.

Quoting queb (Reply 91):
"...under a separate agreement, Republic will assign to Frontier all of Republic's rights under agreements relating to the Republic's Airbus A320neo order in exchange for reimbursement of pre-delivery deposits, which total $32 million."

The CSeries stays with RJET I guess?

Quoting F9animal (Reply 84):
Denver is going to be dismatled. Thousands more jobs will be lost.
Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 88):
They will certainly shrink Denver and seek more point to point flying.

Agreed

Quoting mariner (Reply 87):
I think a few people might be jumping the gun.

In Daniel Shurz's letter to the staff today, he said they are rearranging the GO - at Denver - to accommodate more people as functions come back from Indianapolis.

The HQ can be anywhere. That does not mean there will be a hub.


User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2763 posts, RR: 1
Reply 94, posted (12 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 8379 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 93):
The CSeries stays with RJET I guess?

And with that..... would one be correct to assume that Indigo probably had a no-compete clause written into the contract with RAH (and if not, they need a new attorney(s)) for X amount of years (can they go up to about 7-10 years or so?) and the C-Series IIRC are scheduled to start to be delivered in late 2015......

Now, along these lines of thought..... what good will the C-Series be to RAH (RJET) if they are unable to compete in a U.S. market?

Quoting enilria (Reply 93):
So basically they paid nothing, but if they can make it profitable RJET gets $36m...the value of one new plane. Pretty sad. So much for the talk of it being worth $100m.

So RJET (RAH) itself basically pay nothing for F9.... and then about $2.00 for YX? What's sad?

Quoting F9animal (Reply 84):
Denver is going to be dismatled.
Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 88):
They will certainly shrink Denver and seek more point to point flying.

Do we know that for sure? After all, F9 is DEN. Just about every time that F9 ventures away from there, it ends up somehow that millions of $$$$ quickly fly out of their coffers..... and when F9 focuses on DEN, they make $$$$$. All this bs talk about DEN not being able to support 3 major hubbing carriers there, etc. well, it's just what it is..... bs.... and doesn't really seem to apply to F9. But I don't have a crystal ball that tells me what the future is here now, so.....

 


User currently offlinetortugamon From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 3448 posts, RR: 10
Reply 95, posted (12 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 8165 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 93):
So much for the talk of it being worth $100m.

It is 'worth' $145 million but taking on the debt has to be factored in. They are going to be have to put in a lot more than $36 Million to turn this ship around. It is interesting to read that you can buy their 56 aircraft and their routes and their other assets for the cash it takes to buy 1 aircraft. I wish them luck. There is room for another LCC carrier to keep the legacies 'honest'.

tortugamon


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25532 posts, RR: 50
Reply 96, posted (12 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 8157 times:

Lets see now of pilots and FA's reach a deal by the end of October.


But personally, I view this as an extremely good opportunity for Frontier. Indigo is one of the most experienced airline investor groups out there and they have have developed a special niche focused on development of ULCCs. They have done quite well for themselves and the airlines they have been involved in, and certainly I see no reason why they should not be able to reshape Frontier into another ULCC in the US.

For RAH, I say this whole adventure (along with YX) was a pity and major operational and financial distraction. Hopefully the future cleared up a bit for RAH with this transaction and they can focus on their core competency of fee-for-departure flying.

Only question left for me is what happens to the C-series order?



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinemercure1 From French Polynesia, joined Jul 2008, 1550 posts, RR: 2
Reply 97, posted (12 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 8023 times:

Frontier, the airline with 9-lives.

From what I have read and seen about Indigo overseas they seem to be a experienced group and have done success with their low-cost carrier ventures.

I suppose F9 will totally have to shift its model however as hubing operations are counter to ULCC model. Also take those A320s and put in max 180-seats.

I wonder also if they will seek to have F9 develop its network in large population markets, or have F9 focus on secondary smaller airports? If previous Indigo investments are any indication, they seem to look to major cities more now.


User currently offlineairfrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2826 posts, RR: 42
Reply 98, posted (12 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 7910 times:

I suspect that the entire purpose of the deal's arrangement with Frontier's pilot is to allow the pilots to reconstitute FAPA, rather then allow's Republic's IBT to do the negotiation. There is a amazing amount of rancor at Republic with perceptions of a hostile takeover by IBT's RJET pilots.

-> Edit -> The deal is explicitly worded to deal with FAPA, not IBT. The deal is tied to FAPAInvest LLC representing the pilots union.

[Edited 2013-10-01 09:39:49]

User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25532 posts, RR: 50
Reply 99, posted (12 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 7896 times:

Some characteristics Indigo ULCCs seem to have;

o Lean corporate structure
o Maximize outsourcing - ground handling, maintenance, reservations etc.
o Point-point network but can include focus cities/bases
o High density
o High utilization (another reason against hubing)
o Flashy branding/advertising

=



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently onlineMIflyer12 From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 1052 posts, RR: 0
Reply 100, posted (12 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 7816 times:

Quoting point2point (Reply 94):
All this bs talk about DEN not being able to support 3 major hubbing carriers there, etc. well, it's just what it is..... bs.... and doesn't really seem to apply to F9.

I don't share your confidence that the equilibrium in DEN is three hub carriers. NYC can support hubs of three carriers. CHI does it, although AA and UA are much off their peaks and WN doesn't like the word hub. Dallas couldn't; DL bailed even before the expansion of competition with a modified Wright Amendment. There's no other U.S. metro area the size of DEN that supports three hub-spoke carriers. UA and WN may reduce fare competition (that could be the short-run profit-maximizing move) and let F9 continue to exist if not thrive. If F9 drops below 100 flights a day from DEN is it worth even evaluating it as a hub?


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3157 posts, RR: 1
Reply 101, posted (12 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 7792 times:

courtesy the Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/breakingne...rlines-be-sold-indigo-partners-llc This may squash some potential rumors


Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2002 posts, RR: 0
Reply 102, posted (12 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 7804 times:
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Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 101):
courtesy the Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/breakingne...rlines-be-sold-indigo-partners-llc This may squash some potential rumors

What rumors? All its says is some analysts say that they may remain in denver while other analysts say they will leave.



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25532 posts, RR: 50
Reply 103, posted (12 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 7705 times:

Being based at DEN, and operating a hub, or major focus city are two very different things.

While it looks like F9 will keep a corporate headquarters in DEN, the potential volume of activity at the airport could very well be less. Just because one is based somewhere hardly means one needs to fly much to that city.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2763 posts, RR: 1
Reply 104, posted (12 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 7591 times:

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 100):
If F9 drops below 100 flights a day from DEN is it worth even evaluating it as a hub?

With what I notice going on in DEN about the last year (or maybe a bit more) is that NK moved in, and afterwards airfares to/from DEN dropped even some more. However, the airport is showing reduced numbers of total pax. Somehow on the surface, yes, this doesn't seem to make sense. And if NK (of all carriers) sees (saw) potential at DEN (they've since increase flgihts 50% since they've begun here), has the bottom rung of airfares been reached yet at DEN, despite being among the lowest in the nations?

But what is happening is that DEN is becoming less of a transfer point..... the very thing that the airport is (was) built to do. Per the DEN 7/13 airport numbers and publications, connect pax are being reduced, while at the same time DEN is showing a 4% increase in O&D traffic over 7/12, which would make sense. Being DEN was showing about a 55%-45% O&D pax ratio previously..... is the O&D ratio here now going to be something like 60%-40%?

WIth this, we know that the carriers like O&D traffic..... the O&D pax produces a higher yield than the connect pax. And so long as this O&D number stays at that level, or continues upward some...... my feeling says (yes, my feeling says, based on overall economics) that 3 major carriers at DEN will pretty much survive here - along with almost all of the other majors.

Now, does it really matter what other metros/airports do? Both UA and WN are showing overall profits, so whether or not they are making $$$$ at DEN in a way doesn't matter.... they can stay there as long as they profit overall elsewhere. Yet with a 60% O&D rate..... IF the are losing here, they just can't be losing that much at all, and with that O&D rate, I would even say that both are profiting here. As for the other majors.... they as well are profiting overall, and seem to show no intent to cut back at DEN. This leaves us with F9..... F9 is DEN...... and they must have +$$$$$ here or else. And F9 has been showing those +$$$$$ at DEN.

And so, it seems here on the surface that the economics are there at DEN to support 3 major carriers. It's just kind of a different way now, in that the premium O&D pax to/from DEN is taking advantage of the low fares, and if/as carriers focus their efforts to getting those O&D butts in their seats here, all will be fine for all.

So does it really matter if F9 has less than a 100 flights a day here..... or WN doesn't call its hubs hubs.... or UA rightsizes itself here...... or other major carriers just have their flights to/from their hubs? For me, it's all basically in this sense irrelevant..... when all that has to be looked at is the +$$$$$$

Now, if/when there is -$$$$$, I will agree that then it becomes a different situation.

 


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3157 posts, RR: 1
Reply 105, posted (12 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 7581 times:

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 102):
What rumors?

Potential rumors; no one knows for sure. I understood one posters statement above who actually worked for F9 lean on the side of F9 leaving the airport. In the here and now even airport management says they didn't know.

From my perch analyst are generally understood to be a bunch of prognosticators.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3157 posts, RR: 1
Reply 106, posted (12 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 7567 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 103):
Just because one is based somewhere hardly means one needs to fly much to that city.

Concur, An example might be PeoplExpress II. If the carrier does come to fruition it is reported they will have their corporate offices at PHF.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2763 posts, RR: 1
Reply 107, posted (12 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 7568 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 105):
Potential rumors; no one knows for sure. I understood one posters statement above who actually worked for F9 lean on the side of F9 leaving the airport. In the here and now even airport management says they didn't know.

From my perch analyst are generally understood to be a bunch of prognosticators.

And go to where exactly?

These bunch of analysts seem to be forgetting that F9 is DEN. Even NK has its major base of operations at FLL, more than twice that of any other station. So while there is stuff (not sure how to define stuff here) that F9 can do away from DEN (sorry that history shows that any time F9 ventures from DEN, they just end up losing millions of $$$$$) other than maybe merging with NK (maybe that's a secret goal here with this sale to Indigo?) at least in the near-term I don't think that F9 can really venture away from DEN.

 


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25328 posts, RR: 85
Reply 108, posted (12 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 7524 times:
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Quoting LAXintl (Reply 103):
Being based at DEN, and operating a hub, or major focus city are two very different things.

I think the rules of ULCC are more elastic than might be supposed. Indigo is involved in Tigerair and they hub at SIN and offer some connections there:

http://www.tigerair.com/sg/en/destination_map.php


WizzAir (also Indigo), began its life hubbing at BUD and have simply added more "hubs".

The only surprise to me (and it's quite a big one) is that it is 100% sale - Republic retains no holding, but the assumption of debt may be a biggie in that. And it explains the resistance to the pilot shareholding.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2763 posts, RR: 1
Reply 109, posted (12 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 7481 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 44):
It will matter. But the analysis I've read, while limited in scope, imply that if F9 is spun off, it will be with the debt and there isn't much that can be done about it.

Well.... since F9 was sold - as opposed to being spun-off/separated into its own entity by Republic as a Plan B - I guess we'll not know our answer as to whether or not Republic would be able to or not stick its debt into this new spun-off/separated F9 company. A lot less for attorneys to make here.

 


User currently offlineJerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2002 posts, RR: 0
Reply 110, posted (12 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 7460 times:
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Quoting mariner (Reply 108):
think the rules of ULCC are more elastic than might be supposed. Indigo is involved in Tigerair and they hub at SIN and offer some connections there:

I do believe though that F9 may reduce its DEN hub flights and retain mostly flights they believe they can make money off of via O&D traffic rather than try to support flights just for the sake of having a hub.



Any predictions what changes if any will happen to Early Returns?

[Edited 2013-10-01 12:16:24]


Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25328 posts, RR: 85
Reply 111, posted (12 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 7406 times:
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Quoting Jerseyguy (Reply 110):
I do believe though that F9 may reduce its DEN hub flights and retain mostly flights they believe they can make money off of via O&D traffic rather than try to support flights just for the sake of having a hub.

Sure, they may. That's what they;ve been doing that for the past year or two - why should now be different?

It all seems to be based on the idea what DEN can't support three hubbing airlines - which may be true if they all just fly to the same places.

But the overlap with Southwest has been much reduced. I am surprised - nay, startled - that the North Dakota routes (two airlines, no Southwest) seem to be doing so well - why would they drop them?

Or why would they drop DEN-CVG - unless it is crap in winter? It has three airlines on the route, just a different three airlines, Delta instead of Southwest?

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25532 posts, RR: 50
Reply 112, posted (12 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 7403 times:

Quoting point2point (Reply 107):
Even NK has its major base of operations at FLL, more than twice that of any other station.

NK continues to shrink at FLL. They ended up there following their move from DTW and before their transition to ULCC.

Today FLL has 36 scheduled flights, while other stations like Vegas have 26, DFW and ORD come in at 20. They are pretty spread out.

Quoting point2point (Reply 107):
So while there is stuff (not sure how to define stuff here) that F9 can do away from DEN (sorry that history shows that any time F9 ventures from DEN, they just end up losing millions of $$$$$)

F9 under Indigo will be a new airline. As a ULCC by nature hubing in not a model of success, matter of fact its a liability and efficiency killer. I would think F9 will venture far and wide with various p2p flying. Past failures as a regular carrier outside of DEN I dont think is much of an indicator how they would do as a ULCC. For all you know Indigo might throw them on LAX-JFK or any other hotly contested market if they believe the market is there to generate the dollars.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinemercure1 From French Polynesia, joined Jul 2008, 1550 posts, RR: 2
Reply 113, posted (12 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 7333 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 108):
I think the rules of ULCC are more elastic than might be supposed. Indigo is involved in Tigerair and they hub at SIN and offer some connections there:

Well Singapore is a city state. Obviously its a single airport.

But go look at Wizz Air, another Indigo airline, or Mandala, or Spirit certainly. They all have all developed with much less centralized networks.
Those are much more likely models applicable to large US market for Frontier.

Also regarding connections and Tiger, remember Tigerair also serves it other investor SIA Group masters, with SIA having said they want to build Tiger and Scoot into a more coherent network operation. Indigo is not the sole puppet master for Tiger.


User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2763 posts, RR: 1
Reply 114, posted (12 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 7330 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 108):
I think the rules of ULCC are more elastic than might be supposed. Indigo is involved in Tigerair and they hub at SIN and offer some connections there:

Would there maybe be some different set of economics at play for a carrier in that part of the world - say, e.g., lower labor costs, etc? But I have to say that looking at that route map, TR sure gets the most out of SIN.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 112):
F9 under Indigo will be a new airline.

Hmmmmm.... really? I think that it's still gonna be Frontier, and it's going to be DEN.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 112):
I would think F9 will venture far and wide with various p2p flying. Past failures as a regular carrier outside of DEN I dont think is much of an indicator how they would do as a ULCC. For all you know Indigo might throw them on LAX-JFK or any other hotly contested market if they believe the market is there to generate the dollars.

And hmmmmmmmmm....... really?..... again........ I just have to wonder how many millions Indigo is going to spend before they finally learn that F9 is DEN, and that venturing away from DEN costs big $$$$$$, and that when they focus on DEN, well...... they get $$$$$$$.

I guess that we all have the same front row seats here, eh?

 


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25328 posts, RR: 85
Reply 115, posted (12 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 7318 times:
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Quoting mercure1 (Reply 113):
Well Singapore is a city state. Obviously its a single airport.

Yet Jetstar Asia - also with a hub in SIN - is spreading its wings across Asia, with other hubs in other places as well.

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 113):
Indigo is not the sole puppet master for Tiger.

No, indeed. But it was a founding investor in Tiger, knowing the single hub model and still expecting to make money.

I assume that Frontier will spread its wings beyond DEN - but I don't think that negates DEN and I am mildly surprised that people can make these claims on something that isn't even a done deal yet.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineairfrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2826 posts, RR: 42
Reply 116, posted (12 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 7308 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 115):

I assume that Frontier will spread its wings beyond DEN - but I don't think that negates DEN and I am mildly surprised that people can make these claims on something that isn't even a done deal yet.

Since when have people on A.net refrained from speculating on these types of things? I can't believe no-one even posted on the union dynamics at play at F9. I'm convinced that more then anything, this is what will determine if this goes through or not.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25328 posts, RR: 85
Reply 117, posted (12 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 7256 times:
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Quoting airfrnt (Reply 116):
I can't believe no-one even posted on the union dynamics at play at F9. I'm convinced that more then anything, this is what will determine if this goes through or not.

It is the major point that is made in the "Separation FAQ's" to the staff - the sticking point is what it always was, changes to the pilot/f.a agreement on ownership.

As to other matters:

"Q. How does this impact Frontier’s growth plan?
A. There are no changes to our fleet plan at this time as a direct result of this
transaction.

Q. Will Frontier continue its existing routes? Will any cities be added or dropped?
A. The transaction will have no direct impact on our route network.

Q. Will lay-offs or furloughs be necessary or implemented?
A. We do not expect any lay-offs or furloughs as a direct result of closing a transaction."


No ne can speak to the future, of course, only to plans for the future and anything can change.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineCarsAir04 From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 162 posts, RR: 1
Reply 118, posted (12 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 7207 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 117):
Q. Will lay-offs or furloughs be necessary or implemented?
A. We do not expect any lay-offs or furloughs as a direct result of closing a transaction."

I am not familiar with how Spirit or other airlines that Indigo has invested in utilize employees. Are most of the above/below wing employees outsourced at all their stations, including their so-called main hubs?
Of course it is all speculation as to what they will do with Denver, but I have to wonder if Indigo will keep F9 employees or outsource in Denver. Having friends out there, I hope they are able to keep their jobs, but that is something that one cannot predict.


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3157 posts, RR: 1
Reply 119, posted (12 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 7150 times:

Quoting Jerseyguy (Reply 110):
I do believe though that F9 may reduce its DEN hub flights and retain mostly flights they believe they can make money off of via O&D traffic rather than try to support flights just for the sake of having a hub.

My    I think job one for Indigo is to convert DEN or which ever airport it may be to something which looks more like TTN except on steroids.

I disagree with the writer of the Denver Post story that Frontier is currently a ULCC. In the east; yes On the west bank of the Mississippi and beyond they continue to operate as a LCC; hence a hybrid. Be it NK there appears to be some momentum toward lower fares which could be the cornerstone to the fully convert F9 to a ULCC at DEN.

Another concern, can DEN support the ULCC fares we see at TTN. DEN is said to be one of more expensive airports to operate out of.

If the AA/US deal ultimately goes through I can't help but think US micro hub in PHX will be downsized in exchange for AA DFW hub which may allow Franke to slip into PHX with F9. He is from area correct.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineBostonMike From United States of America, joined Nov 2011, 47 posts, RR: 0
Reply 120, posted (12 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 7158 times:

Quoting airfrnt (Reply 116):
I'm convinced that more then anything, this is what will determine if this goes through or not.

Under the RLA, who is the representative body for the Frontier pilots? My understanding is the Teamsters were elected in 2011 to represent all the pilots under RAH and according to the Teamsters, there have been no discussions going on between them and Indigo or RAH. So how the parties resolve the pilot issues?


User currently offlineJerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2002 posts, RR: 0
Reply 121, posted (12 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 7101 times:
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Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 119):
Another concern, can DEN support the ULCC fares we see at TTN. DEN is said to be one of more expensive airports to operate out of.

Maybe they could try COS   

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 119):
If the AA/US deal ultimately goes through I can't help but think US micro hub in PHX will be downsized in exchange for AA DFW hub which may allow Franke to slip into PHX with F9. He is from area correct.

I don't know the full story but Franke used to be CEO of America West which is where US got PHX to begin with. So, yeah I think he's kinda familiar with PHX



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13161 posts, RR: 100
Reply 122, posted (12 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 7090 times:
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Any new information?

Quoting mariner (Reply 111):
It all seems to be based on the idea what DEN can't support three hubbing airlines - which may be true if they all just fly to the same places.

But the overlap with Southwest has been much reduced.

What stops WN from expanding? Or UA? Eventually co-hubbed airlines will 'poach' attractive routes from each other. Eventually someone at WN or UA will ask "If F9 can make money DEN-XXX, why can't we?" And sometimes the answer will be 'compete!'


Lightsaber

Quoting point2point (Reply 114):
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 112):
F9 under Indigo will be a new airline.

Hmmmmm.... really? I think that it's still gonna be Frontier, and it's going to be DEN.

It will be Frontier and they will have some DEN flying... but expect more a NK model as LAXintl noted.


Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25328 posts, RR: 85
Reply 123, posted (12 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 7059 times:
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Quoting lightsaber (Reply 122):
What stops WN from expanding? Or UA? Eventually co-hubbed airlines will 'poach' attractive routes from each other. Eventually someone at WN or UA will ask "If F9 can make money DEN-XXX, why can't we?" And sometimes the answer will be 'compete!'

Nothing stops it. I'm only dealing with the now, what is, not what may be. I can't predict the future.

When Frontier started DEN-PHF, many Southwesterlies insisted that Southwest would start ORF-DEN, and they may - one day. When Southwest arrived at DSM, it became the a.net CW that the next route would be DSM-DEN, and it turned out to be DSM-LAS.

All I can do is post what I know, not what I guess:

Quoting mariner (Reply 117):
Q. Will Frontier continue its existing routes? Will any cities be added or dropped?
A. The transaction will have no direct impact on our route network.

As I said earlier, I'm guessing there will be more non-DEN flying (ILG-LAS? - LOL), but that doesn't negate DEN. TTN hasn't negated DEN.

More to the point, this will - I think - be the first time that Indigo has owned 100% of any airline, so, success or fail, it's all on Franke.

And I can't begin to guess what is in his mind. I think it is quite exciting, but I don't know what will happen.

mariner

[Edited 2013-10-01 14:24:51]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3157 posts, RR: 1
Reply 124, posted (12 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 7016 times:

Quoting Jerseyguy (Reply 121):
Maybe they could try COS
No!

Quoting Jerseyguy (Reply 121):
I don't know the full story but Franke used to be CEO of America West which is where US got PHX to begin with. So, yeah I think he's kinda familiar with PHX


Yep, PHX makes the most sense if DEN is downsized. I also thought about the return of AZA; which might be too small to work as a micro hub but the airport does fit neatly in the ULCC model. The naysayers said TTN wouldn't work either. With that said you just can't take everything at DEN and dump it in the Arizona desert (no airframe graveyard jokes please) .



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinerj777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1857 posts, RR: 2
Reply 125, posted (12 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 7012 times:

I wonder what this will mean for F9 out of MKE (among other places)

User currently offlineVS11 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 1111 posts, RR: 0
Reply 126, posted (12 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 7015 times:

Not a bad deal for Indigo. They are probably putting somewhere between $10-12m of their own money, the rest is borrowed plus refinanced loans/bonds.

I am personally quite puzzled how Republic couldn't make F9 work. For a company that provides flying for other airlines, they should have market intelligence for every single market in the country - it should not have been difficult to identify profitable markets. When Republic got F9 and YX, I thought it was a smart idea with lots of potential. Too sad it didn't work out but happy that there is new life into Frontier! Wish them all the best!


User currently offlineairfrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2826 posts, RR: 42
Reply 127, posted (12 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 6915 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 119):

Another concern, can DEN support the ULCC fares we see at TTN. DEN is said to be one of more expensive airports to operate out of.

Not really. It's middle of the pack now. The airport's bonds basically will be paid off in the next ten years, which will then leave it one of the cheapest airports to operate out of due to efficiency wins. As Kim Day recently pointed out - that's going to be a sea change.

Quoting BostonMike (Reply 120):

Under the RLA, who is the representative body for the Frontier pilots? My understanding is the Teamsters were elected in 2011 to represent all the pilots under RAH and according to the Teamsters, there have been no discussions going on between them and Indigo or RAH. So how the parties resolve the pilot issues?

The negotiation here is with FAPAInvest LLC, which is a shell company that FAPA set up before a (highly dubious and sketchy) election occurred putting the teamsters in charge. As long as the new carrier isn't changing the contract (which they are not, just the ownership interest of FAPAInvest) it should not be a issue. According to friends at F9, their belief is that FAPA will be re-incorporated the second the two year window expires (which is magically this year).

I expect to hear of a lawsuit of some other strong reaction shortly from IBT.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25532 posts, RR: 50
Reply 128, posted (12 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 6761 times:

A few quotes from Franke -

Franke said the ultra low-cost model has proven global appeal. In the United States, airline mergers have spurred more opportunities for such airlines to enter underserved markets, he added.
"The objective is to offer a consumer options, so the consumer has low fares and then can choose what he or she wants to add to that base fare in exchange for services," Franke said. "That has been the manner of running Spirit, for Ryanair in Europe and we've taken that model to other markets as well."


==

said his firm would look to make Frontier operate more efficiently to ensure it can offer lower ticket prices to leisure travelers looking for a bargain.
"There will be a push to be more efficient so that the airplanes fly more hours, we better manage maintenance, we work on how to have fuel savings as we fly," Franke said in an interview


==

Franke said Frontier, which offers flights to more than 80 cities in the United States, Costa Rica, the Dominican Republic, Jamaica, and Mexico, would expand to new markets based on demand, and added the airline would continue to be based in Denver.



http://finance.yahoo.com/news/fronti...cites-global-appeal-232046570.html

=



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3157 posts, RR: 1
Reply 129, posted (12 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 6712 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 128):
Franke said Frontier,
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 128):
would expand to new markets based on demand, and added the airline would continue to be based in Denver.

Three thousand lives were just put at ease.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineCarsAir04 From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 162 posts, RR: 1
Reply 130, posted (12 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 6656 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 129):
Three thousand lives were just put at ease.

But does that mean he will keep people on the ramp or CS, or will he outsource. I asked that question above, not knowing the Spirit model and if they use their own employees for those positions or outsource everything.


User currently offlineVS11 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 1111 posts, RR: 0
Reply 131, posted (12 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 6702 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 129):
Three thousand lives were just put at ease.

"We want to underscore that this is Denver's hometown airline," Franke told The Post. "We think Frontier has a very loyal customer base in Denver and we don't have any plans of abandoning that."
.....

As for the airline's thousands of local employees, Franke said his plan is to stabilize the finances and expand the airline so that Frontier's workforce can regain a sense of job security. It is still unclear whether any jobs will be affected in the transition.

"We want to provide stability and growth to the airline going forward, both of which are good for the employees," Franke said."As the airline grows, inevitably all parts of the airline grows, and with the Denver as the headquarters, you would expect to see growth there."

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingne...rlines-be-sold-indigo-partners-llc


User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2763 posts, RR: 1
Reply 132, posted (12 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 6558 times:

Quoting VS11 (Reply 131):
"We want to underscore that this is Denver's hometown airline," Franke told The Post. "We think Frontier has a very loyal customer base in Denver and we don't have any plans of abandoning that."

WOW! This guy has been reading my posts here..... (lol). Smart man, but it's just so obvious the F9 is DEN. It has been for the in some form for most part since about 1950.

Quoting VS11 (Reply 131):
As for the airline's thousands of local employees,

I don't know.... maybe it's a lot of..... ho hum.... at this point.... another investor/owner at F9.... what can be done, and why get aggravated over things that are not in their control? Hopefully Indigo won't blow too many millions trying to expand outside of DEN like everyone else in the past has...... when DEN is where F9's $$$$$$$$ are....... and if so.... F9 won't have to do another round of cutting employees.... F9 still probably has the best employees around..... they just need to keep their focus on their jobs, and making sure that F9 will be the first choice for the air travel public when/if there is a choice, and keep it that way no matter what management does.... there are a lot of things that employees can control.... so focus on those.


Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 129):
Three thousand lives were just put at ease.

That would be nice........

Quoting BostonMike (Reply 120):

Oy vey..... all we need now is for the unions to start turning the screws on each other to the detriment of everyone....... Move forward, everyone......

 


User currently offlineCIDFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2313 posts, RR: 3
Reply 133, posted (12 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 6448 times:

I think Frontier will always have at most a respectable sized operation in DEN, its been their home for years and has a good brand awareness there. It will be intersting to see where else they will go to. I like their model of serving smaller cities that WN and NK ignore. They have kind of taken a page from the G4 model of serving smaller markets and seem to be doing pretty good. Where else could they open up some smaller hub/focus cities? Looking at recently de-hubbed cities from the legacies MEM will have a lot of space now that DL is gone. Granted it doesnt have a lot of o&d but with an ULCC lower operating costs plus the fact that Fed Ex makes operating costs there low could be something to watch. STL? not sure about that, WN has pushed towards 100 dailies there and is tops although there is still alot of gates open. PIT? Maybe, the new Peoplexpress is said to make that a base of operations. CVG? While technically still a DL hub there is gate space on A to try some more flights and the DEN flight seems to be doing very well. I believe its one of the few places to have a daily DEN flight that isnt a huge metro area in the vein of LA, Chicago, NYC, DCA etc. The idea of PHX if AA/US gets approved and ever downsizes is intriguing. I'm betting Florida will play a big part, most ULCC's have good coverage there.

One thing is for sure its definitely going to be interesting to see how the new F9 evolves.


User currently offlinesmoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1311 posts, RR: 12
Reply 134, posted (12 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 6292 times:

Quoting freakyrat (Reply 92):
Yes like returning to SBN. In the 11 months they were there they served over 21,000 passengers each way and at an average fare of 118.00 each way they took in some $4,962,000 dollars in air fares not counting bag fees etc. There is no way it costs them 4 million dollars to operate that A319 there including all expenses. I think they made close to 2 million dollars off the flights not counting the 700,000 in subsidy money they burned through. I think they will digest everything and figure out how to return and make it continually profitable and not just in the spring and summer. The last few months they served the market they even had standbys for the flights. They just jumped the gun to fast and I think in hindsight they think they shouldn't have done it with the number of complaints they are getting from people who used the flights.

Why do you keep bringing this up? The route didn't work. Period. If it did, they would still be operating it. Frontier (given their slim profitability) is not cutting profitable flying. They definitely did not make 2M on 5M in revenues. An average fare of $118 is garbage. The route didn't work outside of summer. Even if the loads were there, the yields weren't. The fact they decided to pull the plug-even after having a 98% Loadfactor in June should tell you it didn't work. I suggest you start supporting the current airlines that are in SBN. Other carriers can get you to DFW from there much quicker than F9 could anyways.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13161 posts, RR: 100
Reply 135, posted (12 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 6158 times:
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Wow... It went though. I was wondering if the deal would go through. I'm happy it did.

I'll admit to being surprised at the DEN focus. I hope to see the words kept true. Good luck to F9.

Quoting mariner (Reply 123):
I'm only dealing with the now, what is, not what may be. I can't predict the future.

But one can look at patterns and its nice to see F9 will continue on.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3478 posts, RR: 0
Reply 136, posted (12 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 6054 times:

Delta said nothing would happen.....tell that to cvg and mem. The hq would be crazy to move again and I'm sure Denver will always remain a major station. They have said nothing to say Denver won't shrink significantly or new focus cities might open. I am sure they have an idea of how to change the airline but they will need time to study the operations first hand.

User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25328 posts, RR: 85
Reply 137, posted (12 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 6034 times:
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Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 136):
They have said nothing to say Denver won't shrink significantly or new focus cities might open.

Based on what Mr. Franke has said, I assume that there will be more focus cities. Since he's talking about growth that doesn't negate DEN.   

mariner

[Edited 2013-10-01 23:01:41]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineBostonMike From United States of America, joined Nov 2011, 47 posts, RR: 0
Reply 138, posted (12 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 6038 times:

10-1-13: Parties in Frontier Sale Negotiate with Wrong Union
Link to PDF Press Release

In a last minute deal, Republic Airways Holdings (NASDAQ:RJET) may have finally negotiated a deal to sell the troubled Frontier Airlines to Indigo Partners, a private equity firm based in Phoenix.

The deal may be in jeopardy, however, as the negotiations did not include representatives from the International Brotherhood of Teamsters Local 357. Various news sources state that Frontier, Republic and Indigo are and will be negotiating with FAPAInvest, LLC to close the deal by the end of the year. In June 2011, the National Mediation Board declared the International Brotherhood of Teamsters as the union representing all pilots employed by Indianapolis-based Republic Airways Holdings—including Frontier Pilots. Teamster Local 357 is the designated Teamster Local representing these RAH pilots.

“None of the affected parties have contacted the IBT or Local 357,” said Executive Board President Craig A. Moffatt. “This is further proof that Republic Airways Holdings has violated labor laws in its dealings with their pilots.”

Prior to July 2011, Frontier pilots were represented by the Frontier Airlines Pilot Association (FAPA). The NMB decided that the pilot groups should be combined into a single pilot group covering all airlines. The NMB held an election in June 2011 among the combined pilot groups. IBT received the majority of the votes in that election. The NMB then decertified FAPA as the Frontier pilots union. Despite the decertification of FAPA by the National Mediation Board, Republic and Frontier continued to deal in 2011 and into 2012 with an alter-ego, FAPAInvest, LLC, set up by FAPA to run terms of a concessionary deal FAPA cut on the eve of its decertification. The IBT’s lawsuit against Republic, Frontier and FAPAInvest is challenging these illegal agreements and bargaining after the NMB designated the IBT as the union for all pilots.

Union officials stated that the IBT is reviewing and considering all legal options.

The sale will not affect the litigation concerning RJET and Frontier’s previous illegal dealings with FAPAInvest. As the notice sent by IBT Airline Division Director Captain David Bourne to Indigo Partners stated, Indigo will simply now become liable for any judgment against Frontier. Further, Republic will remain a defendant in the case based on its own illegal actions.

Corporate transactions may not be used to avoid a union’s status under the Railway Labor Act, which covers airline pilots as well.

“Frontier pilots are and will continue to be represented by the IBT and Local 357,” said Moffatt. “It is in all of our members’ best interest that Frontier pilots are legally and fairly represented in any agreement between the companies.”


User currently offlineByrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2361 posts, RR: 1
Reply 139, posted (12 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5957 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 124):
Yep, PHX makes the most sense if DEN is downsized.
Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 119):
If the AA/US deal ultimately goes through I can't help but think US micro hub in PHX will be downsized in exchange for AA DFW hub which may allow Franke to slip into PHX with F9.

All this talk about a PHX hub is a pipe dream. So you all are saying that F9, who is getting pinned down by WN/UA in DEN, should set up shop in another city with a strong WN presence and US hub. Talk about jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire.

AA/US won't downsize PHX enough to make it economical for F9 to bleed more money in a second killing field. F9 won't garner much business traffic as they won't have the frequencies or the reach of the big super-fortress hubs. Most of the biz traffic goes to the alliance carriers or WN.



The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7654 posts, RR: 18
Reply 140, posted (12 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5939 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 82):
Indigo to Acquire Frontier Airlines
Quoting planesntrains (Reply 86):
However, Indigo isn't buying Frontier to shut them down. They will want those employees, even if they aren't in DEN. I'm guessing that most people will have a job though it might mean transferring for some.

Where is INdigo from?


And someone tell me in laymans terms why DEN will be "shut down?"



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlineplanesntrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5590 posts, RR: 29
Reply 141, posted (12 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5927 times:

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 89):
Quoting planesntrains (Reply 86):
They will want employees but even more will probably be outsourced.

Sure. But "thousands in Denver"?

I guess we'll see.....

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3157 posts, RR: 1
Reply 142, posted (12 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 5672 times:

Quoting CarsAir04 (Reply 130):
But does that mean he will keep people on the ramp or CS

Only time will tell if Franke fully integrates F9 to a ULCC in DEN. He is on record as saying he will. If it happens I can see the majority of those jobs being converted to contract shored up by what we've seen at most of the outstations combined with the actual statement by the current leadership (taken with a grain of salt) have already stated contracts are cheaper although I having worked as a prior federal contracting officer don't necessarily agree with that ideology. I do understand prior verbal statements are not the word of the land .

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 139):
So you all are saying that F9, who is getting pinned down by WN/UA in DEN, should set up shop in another city with a strong WN presence and US hub

Wow there was certainly a lot of reading between the lines with that statement. I for one didn't say that nor did I interpet that in other poster comments. I mentioned PHX solely as one piece of the puzzle in that Franke to my understanding is from and or familiar with the greater Phoenix area. He was the CEO of America West which if memory serves me was HQ in PHX which he sold to US. I suspect he still knows a lot of people at US from the negotiations be it a few years ago. If the DOJ ultimately approved the AA/US merger I can US downsizing PHX with DFW in range. If and it's a if it happens I can see Phoenix becoming a focus city for F9.

From my vantage point F9 is not being pinned down in DEN. They are the number 3 carrier by market share and seem to be content with that metric.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 140):
And someone tell me in laymans terms why DEN will be "shut down?"

According to Franke it's not going to be. I'm just glad the criitters are sticking around. They add a little class to otherwise boring paint jobs where ever they fly. I was in BNA the other day and saw a bunch of youngens looking out of the terminal window as a F9 flight landed and taxied to the gate. F9 tail zoo remains a flyer favorite.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2002 posts, RR: 0
Reply 143, posted (12 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 5599 times:
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Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 142):
I was in BNA the other day and saw a bunch of youngens looking out of the terminal window as a F9 flight landed and taxied to the gate. F9 tail zoo remains a flyer favorite.

This is especially liked at DCA as its currently the only zoo in the city,  



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3157 posts, RR: 1
Reply 144, posted (12 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 5558 times:

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 143):
This is especially liked at DCA as its currently the only zoo in the city,

Funny and sadly true. I believe the critters make four appearance daily in DCA. Twice daily in BNA. DCA also gets the A320 so technically they are larger critters. I suppose DEN is the only zoo opened there too. A field trip to the airport observation lounge I suppose.

Any idea how the federal shutdown is affecting the TTN airport construction if at all. It probably shouldn't in that it was prior year funding as of yesterday. Still some current year finds could find itself tricking over in unplanned environmental projects within the scope of the main project. I would hate to think they would bring the project to a stop if multi-year money was used.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7234 posts, RR: 13
Reply 145, posted (12 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 5489 times:

Quoting BostonMike (Reply 138):

What an f-ing disaster. I don't understand how that all happens. They should be negotiating with whoever won the election vote. I'm not sure why the former union is involved unless Indigo was looking for a yes and IBT wouldn't give them one. I can't even contemplate the legal mess this is going to create. Why would Indigo even want such a mess?


User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2002 posts, RR: 0
Reply 146, posted (12 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 5463 times:
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Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 144):
I suppose DEN is the only zoo opened there too. A field trip to the airport observation lounge I suppose.

No the Denver Zoo is owned by the City and County.



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineIllinoisMan From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 161 posts, RR: 0
Reply 147, posted (12 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 5366 times:

Just what the US needs, another "ultra low cost" carrier like G4 or NK, which is what Bill Franke has in mind for F9. No thanks.

User currently offlineAirFRNT From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2826 posts, RR: 42
Reply 148, posted (12 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 5311 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 145):

What an f-ing disaster. I don't understand how that all happens. They should be negotiating with whoever won the election vote. I'm not sure why the former union is involved unless Indigo was looking for a yes and IBT wouldn't give them one. I can't even contemplate the legal mess this is going to create. Why would Indigo even want such a mess?

Frontier's union being dissolved was forced on them by IBT and the NLB, and IBT's openly hostile position with regards to the fence and the frontier pilots is well documented on the web. Likewise, FAPA's distrust of IBT has turned out to be well founded. The IBT folks have made it clear that they don't mind sacrificing F9 pilots as part of their battle with RJET, and F9 pilots haven't particularly wanted to be a part of the RJET/IBT labor war, and certainly not as sacrificial lambs.

So before the forced decertification of the union, the F9 pilots granted new concessions to keep their jobs around. In turn the company gave them interest in whatever entity eventually bought F9, and FAPA assigned those rights to a LLC, rather then the Union (so IBT could not get their hands on it). IBT, predictably, had a fit, and went postal and filed (and I believe lost) a lawsuit, even though the agreement was signed before the decertification took effect. Things have gone downhill since then, with IBT being sanctioned for unethical behavior - including leaking confidential documents, and a pretty nasty open war on the boards.

It was a pretty brilliant move. Indigo wants the entire ownership, but F9's pilots (and not IBTs) now have say and leverage that will result in either some concessions from Indigo or some ownership interests (or in the worst case, the shutting down of F9). They have achieved FAPAinvest was meant to do - provide some level of security from both Republic and IBT. Good bit of lawyering this.

FAPA was a pretty sensible union when they were around, and from what I could tell, had a pretty good relationship with management. Here's to hoping that Frontier IIb follows in their footsteps, and starts with relatively good relationship with the new owners.


User currently offlineplanesntrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5590 posts, RR: 29
Reply 149, posted (12 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 5269 times:

Quoting IllinoisMan (Reply 147):
Just what the US needs, another "ultra low cost" carrier like G4 or NK, which is what Bill Franke has in mind for F9. No thanks.

Then_don't_fly_them. If there isn't demand, they'll sink. If there is, they'll swim. What do you care?

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska