evomutant From United Kingdom, joined May 2006, 421 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (2 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 19025 times:
He's actually talking about concerns he has about how that airspace is handled.
Not the time or place descending to 5000ft, but it wasn't just bitching for the sake of it from what I can hear.
The ATC insisting on a pilot copying a phone number at 5000ft is hardly best practise either. There are other ways to chase it up instead of further cluttering the frequency and distracting the pilots as they prepare for the approach. The mutual sarcasm in the "have a great day" from both was the cherry on the top.
LuftyMatt From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2009, 406 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (2 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 18930 times:
Quoting 777STL (Reply 2): I'm not a pilot, but getting the phone number is usually a bad thing, right?
Depends... but yeah your right, it's usually not the thing a pilot likes to hear.
I doubt much will be made of this, at least officially. It's just an embarrasment to the pilots who were saying these things. Actually it happens quite frequently.
MountainFlyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 445 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (2 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 17655 times:
Quoting 777STL (Reply 2): I'm not a pilot, but getting the phone number is usually a bad thing, right?
More often than not, yes, but sometimes they just want to clarify something off the airwaves though.
It doesn't necessarily mean they'll get in any kind of trouble (they didn't technically do anything wrong). They'll probably just get a talking to from the controller. Although, I suppose if they really wanted to pick a bone with the pilot, there is always the sterile cockpit rule during this phase of flight.
93Sierra From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 373 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (2 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 16944 times:
Most airlines ( pilot groups ) tell their pilots to not call that number as they have a union atc spokesman. Bad job by the approach controller as he could of just called the tower and had ground tell them to call when they were in a less critic phase of flight, ie the gate.
Acey559 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 1447 posts, RR: 2 Reply 10, posted (2 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 16530 times:
The pilot didn't get in trouble, for those interested. I heard about this in crew room a while ago and the phone call was the end of it. And no, you're not obligated to call the phone number. I've heard from some the best thing to do is call the union first and explain the situation, then call if advised to do so. It's up to the individual, however.
trnswrld From United States of America, joined May 1999, 830 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (2 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 15711 times:
I always thought the whole phone number thing is stupid and im an actual air traffic controller. First off if I was a pilot I wouldnt call. They had a stuck mic and that happens all the time. Yeah they said some things that probably wasnt the best thing to go out, but controllers and pilots both do it. I can also assure you controllers talk just as much shit about the pilots when not keyed up as well lol.
thrufru From Marshall Islands, joined Feb 2009, 212 posts, RR: 1 Reply 12, posted (2 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 15600 times:
Oh come on... The whole thing was freakin' hilarious, from the Eagle guy stumbling over his words when alerted by the controller to the stuck mic, to the controller's sarcastic sign off. It was brilliant!
If I was the pilot, I'd probably have the chief pilot on the phone to have him call that number and complain about wasting all of the company's daggone fuel. Having him turn 80 degrees to the right (entered at heading 140, turned right to 220, and this was before Pilot Hotmike made his comment), and then turn 220 degrees back to the left, all in the span of three minutes and four seconds, is a waste of fuel.
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
Skisandy From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 27 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (2 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 14586 times:
Hehehe.... being a SLF these people look down upon, I say this: The pilot is not very professional, and the creepy controller is trying very hard (and succeeding) being worse than the pilot. Insisting to give the pilot "the phone number" is violating the sterile cockpit rule more seriously than the pilot ever did on this approach. Some of these controllers just love to hear their own (unpleasant) voices.
ezalpha From Canada, joined Mar 2010, 26 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (2 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 10803 times:
Quoting trnswrld (Reply 11): I always thought the whole phone number thing is stupid and im an actual air traffic controller.
I'm a controller too. If I was the pilot I would call. But if you don't, nothing would happen because we have no legal right to request you do so. We do not report to your company, union, etc. We are required to report it (here in Canada) to Transport Canada and they may pick up on it and make enquiries if they think its a regulatory issue. Bottom line, is that calling us (ATC) cannot change our reporting requirement (as in we can't NOT REPORT) and it can't get you off the hook if you did something wrong. When you call us, you are on a recorded line. We are not trained in how to "ream" pilots out, nor, in my opinion, is that our job. So a call to the Supervisor/shift manager should be an exchange of info, period. Not "let's make a deal" etc because neither Sup nor Shift Manager can escape that requirement to report on uphill. You may influence the wording of what's reported, but in the end, if the Regulator (FAA in the States) does pursue it, he'll have all the radar and audio tapes. If you do call, my suggestion is you should ask "will this be reported further?" If the answer is no, it's a dead issue. If not, be careful what you say. You're creating evidence. I'd still call because a) you don't do stupid things, and b) it may involve a safety issue (eg confusing clearance, poor phraseology on our part, confusing airport signage, etc) and to that end, it's for the betterment of the system. But just don't do a mea culpa and think that let's us (ATC) off the reporting hook.
rickabone From United States of America, joined May 2006, 87 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (2 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 9023 times:
As a controller, I wouldn't have a pilot copy a phone number during any time other than taxiing to the gate or at the gate and or cruise flight... On descent, below 10,000ft is a bit too critical of a phase of flight for my comfort...
As far as calling the tower goes, from my personal experience as a controller, unless the pilot demonstrated gross negligence or willfully disobeyed the rules, or made a mistake that caused an automated safety logic system to be triggered (such as AMASS) or they admitted to a major deviation on frequency (such as entering/crossing a runway without permission) almost all of the requests to call the tower result in nothing more than a simple discussion about whatever happened to make sure that the controllers and the pilots are on the same page so that it doesn't happen again... Rarely has such a phone call resulted in punitive action unless the pilot's attitude on the phone absolutely begs for it. Most of the time it's a simple explanation of whatever local procedure the pilot didn't fully understand or an admonition to be a little more careful next time. (Again, that's assuming it wasn't one of the more serious incidents that I outlined above).
That being said, that is my experience at the facilities I've worked at. I've heard stories of supervisors elsewhere that are much more uptight and will issue a pilot deviation based on the smallest mistake. I haven't seen it, but I've heard it exists elsewhere.
Most of us controllers are pretty sympathetic, and probably close to half of us have some level of flight training, so we understand that it's a complex environment, and that there's a lot going on inside that cockpit besides communicating with ATC.
My guess is that the phone call was the end of it, a chance for the pilot to eat a bit of humble pie and that nothing further came of it.
BTW, there are many more of these incidents... I've heard of several at my facility in the last few years where the pilots had a stuck mic and said something unflattering about the controller working them (most of the time it was the pilots wondering why the controller wasn't responding to them when the reason was their stuck mic and thankfully I was never that controller), and in every case, we just let it slide, issued them a caution for a sticky mic button and told them to have a wonderful day.
PITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 2871 posts, RR: 4 Reply 20, posted (2 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 4064 times:
Quoting flight152 (Reply 18): Eagle has an ASAP program, which makes filling out an ASRS report pretty useless and redundant.
I'm gonna disagree for a few reasons.
Just because one fills out an ASAP report does not mean it will be automatically be accepted into the program. Certain criteria about the event need to be met. Certain criteria must also be met with the ASRS program. It might be possible that some of the criteria is met for one program but not the other. For example, a carrier's ASAP program might only allow 24 hours to submit the report, but for ASRS it is 10 days. There may be other differences in criteria between the programs.
More importantly is the reason for the reporting systems in the first place. While the immunity portion is nice, the primary reason for these programs is to improve safety. The ASRS is a very broad program in which any certified pilot, controller, dispatcher, flight attendant, and mechanic in the nation can participate in. They have a very large database of reports they can use to make safety improvements. ASAP on the other hand only covers pilots at the one carrier.
I had a GPWS event in SAP, Honduras years ago. I filled out both an ASAP report and ASRS for this event. The ASAP closeout came back with no action. The ASRS report on the other hand resulted in an analyst calling me and having a discussion about what took place and why, and what changes can be made. The end result was the terrain which triggered my GPWS warning was not charted, and ASRS made sure Jeppesen would add it to their charts. None of that would have happened if I only filed an ASAP report with my carrier.
My carrier's electronic ASAP report has a box to tick if I desire the report to be forwarded to the ASRS. So no need to fill out two reports, just tick the box and it goes to NASA. Very easy and I can't think of a reason not to do it.
If I was the pilot, I'd probably have the chief pilot on the phone to have him call that number and complain about wasting all of the company's daggone fuel.
Finally got to listen to it and see the flight path. That is a really weird approach in my opinion. I know he said there was a Cessna around, but I don't get the reason for the loop like that. I am sure any pilot can handle something like that (including myself with a lowly PPL), but I get why the pilot was frustrated for no obvious reason as to what would require that. He was on pretty good downwind, not sure why he had to cross over the localizer and then do almost a 180 degree turn on a dime like that.
Isn't standard procedure for something like this to cross at mid-field? Not 1000 feet above the glidescope in the middle of the approach path?
Good to know that as a pilot you don't have to call that number. I always thought you did. Is this true for Cessna pilots as well, or only pilots that have a Union behind them
cjg225 From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 454 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (2 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2180 times:
Thanks for the post.
For the uninitiated like me, this is an interesting thing to hear.
I had an aviation law class two academic years ago in law school. I recall talking about pilots having to call in if they mess up and ATC catches it. If ATC in this situation cannot force a pilot to call in, is it because it's a commercial thing? If I could find my notes I may be able to ask this question more precisely... I remember something called a "ramp check" being linked to this or having to call the FAA when you land? I'm sorry for being all over the place here. Been about a year, I think, since I even thought about this for class.
MountainFlyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 445 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (2 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2110 times:
Quoting cjg225 (Reply 23): I recall talking about pilots having to call in if they mess up and ATC catches it. If ATC in this situation cannot force a pilot to call in, is it because it's a commercial thing?
I'll preface my comment by saying I'm not an expert on the legal requirements of ATC, so my comments are mainly from the side of a pilot.
From my experience at the flight school I taught at, ATC would only give a phone number to call to express to the pilot that their actions were in some way unacceptable. More often than not, it was just a simple reprimand telling the pilot not to do it again, much akin to a law enforcement officer giving a verbal warning for speeding. This could happen even if the pilot had not necessarily directly broken any regulations other than maybe FAR 91.13 for careless and reckless operation. In most cases, should the pilot have chosen not to call, there is little else that would likely happen.
If a pilot had very obviously and dangerously broken an FAR, ATC wouldn't even need to talk to them. It would be as simple as reporting the tail number and the incident to the FAA who could start their own investigation if they wished.
I should also share I almost never heard a controller ask a pilot to call other than at small, tower-controlled airports where the controllers had a lot of time on their hands to worry about small infractions.
Quoting cjg225 (Reply 23): I remember something called a "ramp check" being linked to this or having to call the FAA when you land?
Ramp checks are unrelated. Any aircraft/pilot could be subject to a ramp check, which can be as simple as a random inspection by an FAA official to verify the pilot and aircraft have proper documents, certifications, placards, equipment, etc.