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One Airport For MIA/FLL  
User currently offlinedoulasc From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 544 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 10666 times:

MIA and FLL will run out of room to grow some day. Do you think that a airport built to the west caddy corner from FLL and MIA could serve both Dade and Broward County someday replacing FLL and MIA?

61 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMiami From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 1328 posts, RR: 50
Reply 1, posted (1 year 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 10591 times:
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Quoting doulasc (Thread starter):
MIA and FLL will run out of room to grow some day. Do you think that a airport built to the west caddy corner from FLL and MIA could serve both Dade and Broward County someday replacing FLL and MIA?

I was actually thinking of that the other day!

I think MIA and FLL would just form as one airport sometime in the future.
I'd love to see that.

Let's face it. MIA and FLL need a total makeover. Now I love both my airports, but to combine two major airports as one would be lovely. It'll be more modern and have more space. Giving more opportunities for current and future airlines.

MIA is known for international, while FLL is known for Domestic. Combine the two and it'll be similar to LAX.  

They can make the airport in Aventura or North Miami Beach. Right in between the two airports.

It'll be great for the city of Miami if they moved away from downtown. It'll be able to make tall skyscrapers without the FAA giving them any problems.

-Miami   

[Edited 2013-09-28 20:24:58]


Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible. - Eddie Rickenbacker
User currently offlineATCtower From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 542 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (1 year 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 10537 times:

Unless youre going all Dubai and building stuff on water, no it wont happen. It doesnt need to.

MIA/FLL both serve TOTALLY different markets and are both profitable doing so. There would be no reason to combine it. MIA has MORE than enough runway to fly anytime they arent being blown away by a hurriicane and FLL is a secondary AP that is thriving just as MDW is. The way they are, works.



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User currently offlineLV From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 2007 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 10546 times:

There was a proposal to build an airport in the middle of the Everglades. There is even a runway out where it was supposed to be and a small airport there. It's called the Dade-Collier Training and Transition airport. It is still open as far as I know. Here are the details : http://www.airnav.com/airport/KTNT

My landlord was a pilot for US Customs in the Miami office in the 80's and talks about chasing planes trying to land there to dump a load of drugs. He has some crazy stories from those days.


User currently offlineLittleFokker From United States of America, joined Sep 2013, 313 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (1 year 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 10471 times:

You're under the impression that American aviation is still growing. Passenger traffic has been flat for the last few years, and all indications are that won't be changing any time soon. There are some new markets getting served, but only at the expense of existing lesser performing markets. MIA/FLL won't be needing a new airport in the near future, if ever.


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User currently offlinecf6ppe From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 351 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 10327 times:

Quoting doulasc (Thread starter):
MIA and FLL will run out of room to grow some day. Do you think that a airport built to the west caddy corner from FLL and MIA could serve both Dade and Broward County someday replacing FLL and MIA?

There was, but no one wanted to drive 40 or 50 miles to get to a remotely located airport.

See above comments.

Also, do a search on "everglades jet port". There is quite a lot of info re: the topic....


User currently offlineBOStonsox From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 1990 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 10237 times:

I don't know much about South Florida, however I think that a third airport would be used before MIA and FLL are combined, and there is one which would be the perfect candidate. As it is, it is also perfect for any ULCC: OPK (Opa-Locka, FL). It's midway between the two airports and it is less than two miles from Tri-Rail between Miami and Fort Lauderdale (it's about the same distance as BWI's terminal is from the Amtrak station there). The longest runway is over 8,000 feet. I'm a bit surprised it doesn't already see service!


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User currently offlinebeechtobus From United States of America, joined Nov 2011, 313 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 10175 times:

Quoting Miami (Reply 1):
They can make the airport in Aventura or North Miami Beach. Right in between the two airports.

It'll be great for the city of Miami if they moved away from downtown. It'll be able to make tall skyscrapers without the FAA giving them any problems.

Ha ha! how many 10s or possibly 100s of billions of dollars would that cost? Do you know how densely populated Aventura, and N. Miami Beach are? It would be completely unfeasible with how many people would need to be relocated, how much area and infrastructure would have to be cleared, never mind the skyscrapers that exist on this part of the coast and then the cost of building the airport and required infrastructure. If a new build airport for Dade and Broward would be built, It would be in the glades, far to the west.

But I don't think that will happen any time soon as ATCtower states.

-FLL will soon have 2 air carrier runways, a new 14 gate intl. terminal and room to expand the remaining terminals.
-Miami will likely start a complete overhaul on the E,F, and G gates soon as well.
-PBI has all kinds of room to expand.
-Homestead may eventually become a joint use airfield depending on the growth of the south metro area.
-And finally high-speed rail can be built along the Tri-rail corridor to link these airport and population/business centers.

Plenty of other expansion options well before a joint airport for Broward/Dade would need to even be considered.


User currently offlineByrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2361 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (1 year 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 10008 times:

If the op is proposing closing MIA and FLL to operate a third facility, then I would say its not going to happen. MIA has spent millions on AA's terminal and will eventually spend millions more on the central concourse.


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User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4252 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (1 year 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 9511 times:

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 8):

If the op is proposing closing MIA and FLL to operate a third facility, then I would say its not going to happen. MIA has spent millions on AA's terminal and will eventually spend millions more on the central concourse.

I was thinking the same thing. The new AA terminal at MIA combined with the new infrastructural improvements at MIA would make a new airport financially a white elephant. Montreal tried to do that with YMX and as is well documented was a complete failure and cost billions that would never be recouped. Of course there will be people who think that they can do it differently and make a go of it by doing the same thing and expecting different results. Insanity prevails in our society so I guess that it will happen one day.



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User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7308 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (1 year 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 9425 times:

Quoting doulasc (Thread starter):
MIA and FLL will run out of room to grow some day.

Growth based on what, international arrivals or regional domestic growth such as commercial and residential?
If we take residential growth, it is leaving the major cities which gets closer to the other regional airports besides Miami and Ft. Lauderdale such as Palm Beach, Tampa, Orlando to name a few. South Florida is not a connecting point for domestic US travel, it is mostly O/D. So as the population spreads out even further, the other airports will naturally gain more traffic as they will be more convenient.
On the international side, those airports above can already handle international travel and if the long haul twins continue to take over the market they will see more international travel.

At present mass transit is in its infancy in the region in terms of train travel between the major cities, so folks are driving, in which case going to airports that are closer and more convenient is their best option.

As to finding the property to build a massive airport where are you looking to the west of Mia / FLL somewhere in the middle of the two so that both regions can share in the spoils, good luck with that one.
However, there are creative minds around especially if its tax payers money being considered.


User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8390 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (1 year 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 9223 times:
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If one combined airport could get built where would it be built ? The everglades are west from Miami and FLL, there is not enough land anywhere down there for an airport that size. It was tried in the 1960's, to build a jetport west from Miami, but it got cancelled, the enviromentalists won.

The two separate airports also work well because the population is very dense down there, shorter times to the airport work well. South Florida is also full of second homes, short distances to the airport are appealing to this population, New Yorkers especially.


User currently offlineDTWPurserBoy From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 1660 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (1 year 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 9069 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 11):
If one combined airport could get built where would it be built ? The everglades are west from Miami and FLL, there is not enough land anywhere down there for an airport that size. It was tried in the 1960's, to build a jetport west from Miami, but it got cancelled, the enviromentalists won.

I believe that the Everglades are under environmental protection and it would be impossible to get approval to build an airport there. There are already serious concerns that the Everglades are diminishing due to urban sprawl threatening many species unique to the area.

That being said, MIA enjoys its popularity much the same as DCA--as a close-in, convenient airport, geographically restricted but workable. I must admit that MIA occupies a very valuable piece of real estate and I am sure that developers would love to get their hands on it.



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User currently offlinecschleic From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 1254 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 8819 times:

FLL also serves a lot of cruise passengers, and the cruise port is very close to the airport. Moving traffic away from that airport would be an issue.

User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7187 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (1 year 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 8479 times:

This will never happen and I see no reason why it would need to ever happen. FLL has some room to expand and they are increasing capacity with a second airliner runway.

Both airports are close to the seaports which is very important to the cruise lines and airlines.
Both airports are close to their city downtown and urban cores.
Both airports are undergoing or have undergone huge renovation/expansion projects
Neither airport is close to going over capacity.
There is no where to to build this mega airport. The Everglades are protected rightfully so and there is zero land between FLL and MIA to build it. And what a pain it would be to drive from some western area of Broward county to Miami and Miami Beach. MIA just got a new $500 million metrorail expansion. It would make zero sense.

So what could happen when that day actually comes with FLL and MIA are over capacity? First I don't see that happening for a very long time but the two best alternatives are:
Building a passenger terminal at OPF or Expanding OPF or Homestead Air Force base to be cargo only airports and allow some of the cargo space currently used at MIA to be turned into a passenger area. But even that is unlikely.

I just don't see the need for anything like this for a long time.

Quoting Miami (Reply 1):
They can make the airport in Aventura or North Miami Beach. Right in between the two airports

This might be biggest fantasy comment I ever seen on Anet. The location makes sense geographically but it would require tens of thousands if not 100,000 people to be relocated, and probably over $80 billion in funds if not even more. It makes no sense. That is a densely populated area with high rise buildings and important roads in place.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineMiami From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 1328 posts, RR: 50
Reply 15, posted (1 year 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 8218 times:
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Right now MIA needs to focus on doing an extreme makeover. Close runway 12/30. That runway is useless. Lower fees.

Miami is an expensive airport that's why low-cost carriers go to FLL instead.

Quoting flymia (Reply 14):
Both airports are undergoing or have undergone huge renovation/expansion projects

Explain to me what are they doing at MIA RIGHT NOW??
MIA isn't doing anything at the moment.
They only have plans to redevelop the central terminal. That's it.

Quoting flymia (Reply 14):
Quoting flymia (Reply 14):
Building a passenger terminal at OPF or Expanding OPF or Homestead Air Force base to be cargo only airports and allow some of the cargo space currently used at MIA to be turned into a passenger area

Yeah... That's not happening. Not even in a million years.

Take a look at the proposed redevelopment of the central terminal:
http://exmiami.org/index.php/miami-i...l-terminal-redevelopment-proposed/



Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible. - Eddie Rickenbacker
User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7308 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (1 year 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 8170 times:

Quoting Miami (Reply 15):
Explain to me what are they doing at MIA RIGHT NOW??
MIA isn't doing anything at the moment.
They only have plans to redevelop the central terminal. That's it.

Based on the money spent on the last few terminals, the new rental center and the screwed up station placement for the metro rail they need to go into hiding for a few years and let the public get over their incompetence that has cost the tax payers dearly and went way over budget.


User currently offlineMIflyer12 From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 1054 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 7686 times:

Quoting LittleFokker (Reply 4):
You're under the impression that American aviation is still growing. Passenger traffic has been flat for the last few years, and all indications are that won't be changing any time soon.

The OP really needs to decamp to China with his 'big new airport' fantasies. The new DEN opened almost 20 years ago now, and that may be the last massive clean-sheet effort for a major metro new airport for generations in the U.S.


User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4501 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (1 year 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 7559 times:

Having one big airport isn't the right approach. We've got 3 major population centers here in South Florida and each has it's own airport. That's the way to go.

As for some other comments.

Quoting Miami (Reply 1):

MIA is known for international, while FLL is known for Domestic. Combine the two and it'll be similar to LAX.

There's tons of domestic service at MIA. I would bet even more domestic destinations are served from MIA than from FLL. It just happens to be almost all on AA.

Quoting Miami (Reply 15):
Right now MIA needs to focus on doing an extreme makeover. Close runway 12/30. That runway is useless.

12/30 isn't useless at all. It's very useful. It's used all the time at the same time as the other 3 runways.

Quoting Miami (Reply 15):
Explain to me what are they doing at MIA RIGHT NOW??
MIA isn't doing anything at the moment.

They're finishing off the rental car / Tri-Rail / Amtrak / Metrorail hub. That's a pretty big and important project.


User currently offlineMiami From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 1328 posts, RR: 50
Reply 19, posted (1 year 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 7393 times:
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Quoting N62NA (Reply 18):
12/30 isn't useless at all. It's very useful. It's used all the time at the same time as the other 3 runways.

Would you rather have a new expansion and close runway 12/30 (3rd longest runway) or keep runway 12/30 and leave the airport how it is?



Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible. - Eddie Rickenbacker
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7187 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (1 year 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 7286 times:

Quoting Miami (Reply 15):
Right now MIA needs to focus on doing an extreme makeover. Close runway 12/30. That runway is useless. Lower fees

You want them to lower fees but you also want them to continuously make renovations and expansion? Those two don't go together. 12/30 is used all the time. Runways are very important in keeping capacity up.

Quoting Miami (Reply 15):
Explain to me what are they doing at MIA RIGHT NOW??
MIA isn't doing anything at the moment.

The Miami central station is sort of a big thing. They still haven't fully completed the North Terminal. There are lounge renovations and gate renovations going on also. Do you the airport to continually be a construction zone? The Central Terminal will be renovated redone at some point but it takes money. Miami doesn't print money. It takes time.

Quoting Miami (Reply 15):
Yeah... That's not happening. Not even in a million years.

It's probably about a 10,000% better chance than your one airport idea.

Quoting Miami (Reply 19):
Would you rather have a new expansion and close runway 12/30 (3rd longest runway) or keep runway 12/30 and leave the airport how it is?

If you close down a runway you cut capacity. The central terminal, espcially when redone will have plenty of extra capacity. MIA isn't getting near a over capacity danger zone for a while.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlinecanyonblue17 From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 456 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 7090 times:

Two thoughts.....Fort Lauderdale is in the process of extending the south runway to allow for significant expansion, and there is the very underutilized PBI only 45 minutes north of FLL.

User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4501 posts, RR: 7
Reply 22, posted (1 year 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6820 times:

Quoting Miami (Reply 19):
Would you rather have a new expansion and close runway 12/30 (3rd longest runway) or keep runway 12/30 and leave the airport how it is?

Keep runway 12/30 and complete the current projects.


User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (1 year 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 6454 times:

Quoting doulasc (Thread starter):
MIA and FLL will run out of room to grow some day. Do you think that a airport built to the west caddy corner from FLL and MIA could serve both Dade and Broward County someday replacing FLL and MIA?

If MIA and FLL didn't exist and they looked for where to put an airport I'm sure that is what would happen. But, it isn't the situation.

Reality is that Dade and Broward are filled with airports and that MIA and FLL have plenty of growth left in them. Personally i expect Opa Locka and North Perry are much more likely to be converted to residential housing than to relief for MIA and FLL.


User currently offlineincitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4021 posts, RR: 13
Reply 24, posted (1 year 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 5922 times:

A single airport to replace both FLL and MIA will happen as soon as the transformation of Central Park in NYC into a VSTOL airport is completed.  


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User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2763 posts, RR: 1
Reply 25, posted (1 year 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5529 times:

Hmmmmm.......

Simple numbers here:
2012
MIA total pax: 38,314,389
FLL total pax: 23,349,835
---------------------61,664,224 total pax MIA + FLL in 2012 for a combined MFILAL airport

If this were a single airport such as ATL, DEN, MSP, etc., this 61,664,224 number would make MFILAL airport the 4th busiest in the U.S, after ATL, ORD and LAX, and only short by 200K pax compared to LAX with its 61,862,052.

Worldwide, MFILAL airport would have been the 8th busiest in terms of total pax in the year of 2012 if it existed.

And now with all of that, in a world where if MIA and FLL were to be shut down, and MFILAL airport is built and the only airport in that South Florida region to allow commercial traffic, ...........

..........then I would say let's keep our fingers crossed that this airport would be one facility that would WOW the rest of the world. I think that this hypothetical (with an ever so so so little chance of probably ever happening) MFILAL airport would be super state of the art....... and since it's close to Cape Canaveral, I would think that there are those whose capabilities could make this a space travel airport as well, with airline, and other multi-modal beyond current state of the art..........

Just my thoughts...... and if ever that South Florida area of MIA and FLL by some outlandish twist of fate were to have one big regional airport for both areas...... then the South Florida there area deserves the best......

.....why not?

 


User currently offlinedoug From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 854 posts, RR: 0
Reply 26, posted (1 year 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 4768 times:

If the two were combined as far as take offs/landings it would probably be the 3rd busiest behind ATL and ORD maybe 4th DFW is up there to.

User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3184 posts, RR: 4
Reply 27, posted (1 year 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4562 times:

What I have seen so far, didn't read eveything too much to read and I am getting lazy in my old age... but I think everyone can agree on this...

There is no where you can build a consolidated airport anymore. TNT was an idea back in the 1960s to build this airport city with 8 runways, multiple terminals, SST port and build up actual towns around it. Miami area is built up all the way to the Everglades. Building a huge facility in the everglades would go over like a fart in church with the environmentalists. It would make a mess out of the everglades, messing up the water flow, ecosystem and on top of that impacting hundreds of types of endangered species of various types of plants and animals. Build it anywhere else in the Miami area as other people said it would displace thousands of people and costs in the several billions to relocate houses and businesses.

One place I was looking at for those familiar with MIA area - maybe that area between Krome Ave and the Turnpike, south of Hwy 27 Okeechobee Rd north of Tamiami Trail 41 - that really isn't the Everglades yet and not built up either. It would still be an air pollution impact over the everglades depending on the configuration of the runways.

Forget anything near the beach - that would cost into the tens of billions.

Homestead ARB would be the ideal size for a new airport but very inconvenient especially to people traveling from Ft Lauderdale. Miami is is a great location near Downtown, just minutes from downtown, the beaches and the attractions. Homestead is just too far away.

Homestead as a reliever airport someday could work if they eventually close down the Air Reserve Base, which is getting down to that point. I don't see a mass move of airlines from MIA to Homestead though. I don't see AA moving some operations there. The most I see is maybe a couple ultra LCCs setting up shop there like Allegiant. They could market Homestead as the closest commercial airport to Key Largo and some of the keys. Maybe try to market to some European charters also . However I don't see any of the major domestic or international service setting up service there other than a few P2P flights.

Even though MIA is landlocked, it isn't in danger of filling to capacity yet. I hardly ever see them use Runway 9 for departures other than some cargo flights and an occassional international. I have sat at El Dorado and seen nothing arriving or departing on 9, while they are lining up for 8R. The last few times I was there I barely even saw 8L used for arrivals or departures.

Someone else mentioned - they should shut down 12/30 and they could build out the terminal there. I agree. I see 8L underused most of the time. Planes landing on 12 that could land on 8L instead. I rarely see more than a handful of departures on 12 and only once seen a departure on 30 (while 9/27 was closed for maint). I can hear the Avation Photography of Miami facebook page guys letting out a groan on this suggestion.

IT would be costly but if they did a cargo facility realignment, re-alligned the terminals, they could possibly fit a 4th parallel runway next to 9 - therefore giving them 4 parallel. They could redo the terminals in between the runways almost like an ATL set up with a total redesign. It would still cost in the billions to do, but would be much cheaper than a whole greenfield design.


User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3184 posts, RR: 4
Reply 28, posted (1 year 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4174 times:

Another option would be to move Cargo ops to Homestead or OPF. I do not know how much cargo gets transfered from an AA plane to a Centurion Cargo, Tampa Cargo or LAN Cargo plane, but I am refering to the heavy container cargo. The Cargo U area and the cargo city near the tower could eventually be closed and demolished for a future parallel runway along 9 with the terminals being built if Runway 12/30 was removed.

Basically the airlines that use the cargo Us - LAN Cargo, Atlas, Tampa/Avianca Cargo, China Cargo, DHL/ABX, Amerijet, Martinair, Cargolux etc could eventually be moved to homestead. Centurion/Skylease as well as Asiana, Cathay Cargo, Korean which use the northeast cargo area (as well as contractors Southern, Evergreen) by LeJeune/36th could also eventually be moved to Homestead and make it a cargo airport. Would be more beneficial than making Homestead into another passenger airport.

You could have a west entrance to the terminal facilities from the 826 Palmetto, already there is a bridge built for the truck traffic above 25th St. The 25th St bridge could be widened and expanded for terminal traffic some day if they were to use the west side eventually for terminal purposes, since the infrastructure is there.

There are a lot of things that you could do with MIA, especially when it has 3 major highways around it before you would have to consider building a new greenfield site.

The same could be done with FLL if it reaches capacity, which it won't for a while once the new runway is built.


User currently offlineMIADeparture From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 8 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (1 year 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4156 times:

Quoting Miami (Reply 15):
Right now MIA needs to focus on doing an extreme makeover. Close runway 12/30. That runway is useless. Lower fees.

Whoa!!! Take it easy with the excavation equipment.

Runway 12/30 is an integral part of the ops at MIA. In conjunction with Land and Hold Short (LAHSO), it allows us two independent runways (12 & 9) with ILS capability to arrive on (weather permitting). That's on an East ops. West ops, it works the same with 30 and 26R, but no LAHSO requirement. Only Cargo traffic from Cargo City, Western and Eastern U depart 9. Exceptions being Lufthansa's A388/748 and pilot requests. This allows us to use 8R as a primary departure runway, with no crossing traffic. No, keep 12/30, develop the terminals.

Delays at MIA are non existent due to traffic. Usually, its a thunderstorm that harasses the airport. Miami-Dade Aviation Department (MDAD), sees no reason to lower fees. The airport handles the VAST majority of international traffic as well as cargo in comparison to FLL. MIA will still attract big name carriers with their big runways, zero delays, connection options, and other enticing features. Its these reasons that MDAD will not allow OPF to develop into a mini-FLL. They barely want Cessnas and Pipers to park there...subject to another discussion. I don't believe that MDAD considers FLL competition if you compare their fees.

While FLL is bustling with energy, it is also brimming with delays. Its one runway, and five miles between arrivals; one in one out. At late at night it is usually more exciting than MIA traffic, with a steady stream of late arrivals past 10 pm till 11:30 or so. Runway 10R will definitely add capacity and JBU and other LCC's will certainly take advantage of that.

HST will never develop. Like someone said, maybe P2P. Cargo carriers love MIA, and until MDAD turns them away due to space, they wont turn to HST. At MIA have great access to highways, the port, and parking spots. Even LAN is considering building a maintenance hangar east of the Eastern U.

It will be a very, very long time before these two airports fill to capacity.


User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7187 posts, RR: 9
Reply 30, posted (1 year 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3897 times:

Quoting MIADeparture (Reply 29):
It will be a very, very long time before these two airports fill to capacity.

Great insight. Especially from someone from MIA ATC. I agree with everything you said. This is not going to be a problem for a very long time IMO.

Quoting MIADeparture (Reply 29):
At late at night it is usually more exciting than MIA traffic, with a steady stream of late arrivals past 10 pm till 11:30 or so.

I have noticed this when listening to ATC. FLL sure does get busy around 10pm but that makes sense. MIA has a decent bank of departures at night because it is a hub while FLL gets the flights coming in from hubs. After 12am I would imagine MIA is the busier of the two up until 8am or so with many more cargo flights and the early morning red eyes.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offline2travel2know2 From Panama, joined Apr 2010, 2633 posts, RR: 1
Reply 31, posted (1 year 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3553 times:

South Eastern Florida's demographics point out that HST Homestead may work as a secondary airport if a deal can be worked with the U.S. Air Force. IMHO, There are some domestic and international routes which may be sustained from that airport.
Other than that region getting another major commercial airport, it seems neither MIA nor FLL will be forced to relocate to a brand new airport.
However, TNT Dade-Collier plans to develop as yet another commercial airport in South East Florida, as tiny as it might be, likely would be stopped by environmentalists.



I'm not on CM's payroll.
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7187 posts, RR: 9
Reply 32, posted (1 year 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3537 times:

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 31):
However, TNT Dade-Collier plans to develop as yet another commercial airport in South East Florida, as tiny as it might be, likely would be stopped by environmentalists.

It's not likely. It can't happen. The Everglades are protected, period. It would be very difficult to even get something like an airport to border the Everglades outside of the development zone. There is a line which goes in and out and past that line nothing may be developed.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 31):
South Eastern Florida's demographics point out that HST Homestead may work as a secondary airport if a deal can be worked with the U.S. Air Force. IMHO, There are some domestic and international routes which may be sustained from that airport.

I agree that when/if the time comes that FLL and MIA are over capacity the next option would be Homestead.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 33, posted (1 year 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3528 times:

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 31):
However, TNT Dade-Collier plans to develop as yet another commercial airport in South East Florida, as tiny as it might be, likely would be stopped by environmentalists.

Ignoring environmental issues it has less chance of happening that a new mega airport replacing MIA and FLL somewhere in the developed area between.

TNT died together with B2707. The location was selected to keep the noise from supersonic airplanes away from developed areas. The site has no infrastructure. There is a single road that will cost a fortune to expand. Even so it is cheap compared to the cost of stabilizing the land required to build runways and everything else required. Just bringing out enough electricity is a major undertaking.


User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3479 posts, RR: 0
Reply 34, posted (1 year 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3510 times:

Look at the economy, this is such a major infastructure invesment. The government is close to shutting down, no chance of anything this major to happen anytime soon. Its not a bad idea and if aviation demand were booming in a good economy it might be possible but I just can't see it.

User currently offlineOB1504 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 3362 posts, RR: 6
Reply 35, posted (1 year 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3410 times:

Quoting par13del (Reply 16):
Based on the money spent on the last few terminals, the new rental center and the screwed up station placement for the metro rail they need to go into hiding for a few years and let the public get over their incompetence that has cost the tax payers dearly and went way over budget.

How is the location of the airport station "screwed up"? It's going to share a building a county bus terminal, Amtrak, Greyhound, Tri-Rail, and the Rental Car Center, and there's space to put the tracks for the eventual westward extension to Florida International University. Running the train directly to the terminal and dead-ending it there to avoid a transfer to a 3-minute people mover ride would've been a mistake.

Quoting MIADeparture (Reply 29):
Runway 12/30 is an integral part of the ops at MIA. In conjunction with Land and Hold Short (LAHSO), it allows us two independent runways (12 & 9) with ILS capability to arrive on (weather permitting). That's on an East ops. West ops, it works the same with 30 and 26R, but no LAHSO requirement. Only Cargo traffic from Cargo City, Western and Eastern U depart 9. Exceptions being Lufthansa's A388/748 and pilot requests. This allows us to use 8R as a primary departure runway, with no crossing traffic. No, keep 12/30, develop the terminals.

   Adding terminal capacity but removing a runway is one step forward and two steps back.

Quoting MIADeparture (Reply 29):
Its these reasons that MDAD will not allow OPF to develop into a mini-FLL. They barely want Cessnas and Pipers to park there...subject to another discussion.

Seriously, what's with MDAD's apparent distaste for light aircraft? The South Florida area is a pilot training mecca and sometimes it's like the county wants to push it all north to Broward.


User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3184 posts, RR: 4
Reply 36, posted (1 year 7 hours ago) and read 3081 times:

Quoting MIADeparture (Reply 29):
Runway 12/30 is an integral part of the ops at MIA. In conjunction with Land and Hold Short (LAHSO), it allows us two independent runways (12 & 9) with ILS capability to arrive on (weather permitting). That's on an East ops. West ops, it works the same with 30 and 26R, but no LAHSO requirement. Only Cargo traffic from Cargo City, Western and Eastern U depart 9. Exceptions being Lufthansa's A388/748 and pilot requests. This allows us to use 8R as a primary departure runway, with no crossing traffic. No, keep 12/30, develop the terminals.

I was using it as an example of future capacity options. Although very expensive (still cheaper than developing a new mega airport) they could add a 4th parallel runway that would run through where the cargo Us are now as well as some of the terminals. The terminals would have to be redeloped centerfield so that would justfiy closing 12/30. Four parallel runways are more efficient than what they have now especially in IFR conditions.

For the record I don't think Miami is anywhere near capacity yet. A lot of it will depend on what happens with AA in the next few years. If AA and US merge and they move a lot of CLT ops to MIA, then maybe it will start getting closer to capacity. MIA right now at times during the day seems almost dead. A lot of that could be fixed with the airport working with AA to move some flights from the peak period to the quieter times.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 31):
South Eastern Florida's demographics point out that HST Homestead may work as a secondary airport if a deal can be worked with the U.S. Air Force. IMHO, There are some domestic and international routes which may be sustained from that airport.Other than that region getting another major commercial airport, it seems neither MIA nor FLL will be forced to relocate to a brand new airport.However, TNT Dade-Collier plans to develop as yet another commercial airport in South East Florida, as tiny as it might be, likely would be stopped by environmentalists.

HST I could see maybe Allegiant Air or something like that flying with point to point. I suggested the cargo companies move there. Yeah they may love MIA, but if Miami Dade County takes over HST if the Air Force Decomissions HST (more and more likely with budget cuts and bases closing), they have a nice facility there away from other traffic. If Miami Dade works a deal with the cargo companies by building their facilities on their own dime and offers them a nice incentive to move there, I am sure a lot of the cargo companies would jump on the opportunity.

I don't see any mainline international traffic going to HST. You will never see the likes of TAM, Air France, Alitalia etc moving there. The tourists that come in on those flights rent cars or take cabs to the beach where they stay. Too far of a drive for someone unfamiliar with the area for those that rent cars and cab fare would be horrible. I could possibly see a Thomas Cook, Monach or some other group charter service going there where there would be buses to transport passengers to the beach and it could used as a charter group "Key West Gateway" as well as a gateway to the upper keys like Key Largo, Marathon etc.

Quoting cmf (Reply 33):
TNT died together with B2707. The location was selected to keep the noise from supersonic airplanes away from developed areas. The site has no infrastructure. There is a single road that will cost a fortune to expand. Even so it is cheap compared to the cost of stabilizing the land required to build runways and everything else required. Just bringing out enough electricity is a major undertaking.

TNT is way out there. That is a further drive than DEN is from Denver. If that were to be the new airport it would be the furthest main airport from a downtown area. You might as well call it the Naples International Airport (j/k). Tamiami Trail is a 2 lane road that goes by it. It would be an environmental mess that would pretty much destroy the everglades. On top of that, isn't it pretty close to both the Seminole and Miccosukee Reservations?

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 35):
Seriously, what's with MDAD's apparent distaste for light aircraft? The South Florida area is a pilot training mecca and sometimes it's like the county wants to push it all north to Broward.

I think it is a safety issue. That is crowded airspace with both FLL and MIA there. Planes on downwind legs for MIA overfly OPF. How far does MIA Class Bravo Airspace extend? A lot of light GA aircraft between MIA and FLL is setting up for an incident like PSA at SAN or Aeromexico near LAX over dense neighborhoods


User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 37, posted (1 year 6 hours ago) and read 3024 times:

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 36):
TNT is way out there. That is a further drive than DEN is from Denver. If that were to be the new airport it would be the furthest main airport from a downtown area. You might as well call it the Naples International Airport (j/k). Tamiami Trail is a 2 lane road that goes by it. It would be an environmental mess that would pretty much destroy the everglades. On top of that, isn't it pretty close to both the Seminole and Miccosukee Reservations?

As I said, there really isn't any infrastructure to support it. it is definitely out there but of all the problems I guess it is the smallest. Should be about the same distance from Miami Beach as Boca is from MIA. Miccosukee would probably like having all the traffic passing by their casino  


User currently offlineFlyAAS80 From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 103 posts, RR: 0
Reply 38, posted (1 year 5 hours ago) and read 2981 times:

Quoting LV (Reply 3):
There was a proposal to build an airport in the middle of the Everglades. There is even a runway out where it was supposed to be and a small airport there. It's called the Dade-Collier Training and Transition airport. It is still open as far as I know. Here are the details : http://www.airnav.com/airport/KTNT

I was surprised to see that TNT had a 10,499ft runway! Quite a bit of concrete with a whole lot of nothing else out there. Does anyone have any info as to who utilizes this airport? States that it is closed to the public, but with all the National Park traffic, is it theirs?



The only way to fly is by the seat of your pants...
User currently offlineOB1504 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 3362 posts, RR: 6
Reply 39, posted (1 year 4 hours ago) and read 2910 times:

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 36):
I think it is a safety issue. That is crowded airspace with both FLL and MIA there. Planes on downwind legs for MIA overfly OPF. How far does MIA Class Bravo Airspace extend? A lot of light GA aircraft between MIA and FLL is setting up for an incident like PSA at SAN or Aeromexico near LAX over dense neighborhoods

Then again, with Mode C transponders being mandatory for all aircraft flying into and out of OPF, plus advances in TCAS and ADS-B, it's not the same.

Quoting FlyAAS80 (Reply 38):
I was surprised to see that TNT had a 10,499ft runway! Quite a bit of concrete with a whole lot of nothing else out there. Does anyone have any info as to who utilizes this airport? States that it is closed to the public, but with all the National Park traffic, is it theirs?

It's owned and operated by the Miami-Dade Aviation Department. It's primarily used for flight training, but aircraft planning on landing there must make prior arrangements. I've shot a few practice approaches there since it has the only NDB approach in the greater Miami area.


User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 40, posted (1 year 4 hours ago) and read 2884 times:

Quoting FlyAAS80 (Reply 38):
I was surprised to see that TNT had a 10,499ft runway! Quite a bit of concrete with a whole lot of nothing else out there. Does anyone have any info as to who utilizes this airport? States that it is closed to the public, but with all the National Park traffic, is it theirs?

I was built when they thought supersonic flights would take over passenger traffic. TNT was the solution to avoid the noise problem. When supersonic flights folded so did TNT.


User currently offlinemia305 From United States of America, joined Mar 2013, 319 posts, RR: 0
Reply 41, posted (1 year ago) and read 2777 times:

I really don't see it happening MIA is in a prime locations and so is FLL
both are close to the cruise ports major transit stations.......etc.

As mentioned above HST will not change I don't see cargo companies moving there
for the simple fact that its to far of a drive to move the freight. I can possibly see HST
being like SWF targeting the population in that area and upper keys and keep it a reserve
installation.

You can foget building in the Everglades it is protected and there's no way the state
gov't and environmentalists will allow it.


User currently offlinezippyjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 5486 posts, RR: 13
Reply 42, posted (12 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2553 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 23):

How can I say this tactfully? The area around OPF is far from being in the top rankings of South Florida or for that matter the entire Sunshine State's toniest neighborhoods. So unless one is going to develop public housing or displace the locals and gentrify the area, OPF will still be in business. It wouldn't be a bad alternative but not a replacement for FLL and MIA. I could imagine a LCC setting up shop at OPF if allowed. OPF with commercial service would be akin to ACY.

And as others have said back in the late 60's their was the grandoise Florida Regional Jet Port. This would have served the then up and coming supersonic aviation boom which never was. And with environmental issues, now there's just that runway out there in gatorland. This would have also affected or eliminated the Big Cypress Swamp.

Regarding high fees at MIA it seems like AA corners that market and keeps others out. I still hold hope we WN/FL will break into MIA. There's enough business for us and them in additon to FLL. I hope we and MIA can make a sweet deal so we can start MIA service sooner rather than later.



I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 43, posted (12 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2497 times:

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 42):
How can I say this tactfully? The area around OPF is far from being in the top rankings of South Florida or for that matter the entire Sunshine State's toniest neighborhoods.

When did Miami Lakes become that bad?   Also, things change. It isn't long ago you couldn't get people to drive thru midtown middle of the day. Now people pay good money to live there.


User currently offlinezippyjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 5486 posts, RR: 13
Reply 44, posted (12 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 2428 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 43):

I forgot who told me but, they were a Miami Beach resident and born in the Miami area and said the area around OPF was one of the bad areas of town. I could swear that it had been mentioned several times and recent regarding this area being not the greatest. I learn something new each day.

When you refer to Midtown are you talking about the areas around Biscayne Blvd and Flagler St. near the cruise ship entrance to the Port of Miami?

What are your thoughts about OPF having passenger traffic? Not as a replacement to MIA or FLL but a third alternative?



I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
User currently offlinemia305 From United States of America, joined Mar 2013, 319 posts, RR: 0
Reply 45, posted (12 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2423 times:

I have to agree with zippyjet. I've lived I'm Miami pretty much all my life
and I can say that the area around OPF is not the nicest, cleanest areas.
It has a very high crime and drug rate in the area. There's no way commercial
service will ever begin at the airport not even as a reliver airport. That would
cost way to much to clean up and redevelop the area around OPF.


User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7187 posts, RR: 9
Reply 46, posted (12 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2402 times:

Quoting mia305 (Reply 45):
There's no way commercial
service will ever begin at the airport not even as a reliver airport. That would
cost way to much to clean up and redevelop the area around OPF.

Since when do commercial airports need to be in good neighborhoods?

Quoting cmf (Reply 43):
When did Miami Lakes become that bad?

Miami Lakes is close to OPF but the area directly surrounding OPF is not that great. It is not the worst area in town, maybe because the airport is there but a few blocks the wrong way and it gets bad.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 44):
When you refer to Midtown are you talking about the areas around Biscayne Blvd and Flagler St. near the cruise ship entrance to the Port of Miami?

Nope, Midtown is on Biscayne but more north. 20th street or so and 36th street. It is completely different than it was 7 years ago.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 44):
What are your thoughts about OPF having passenger traffic? Not as a replacement to MIA or FLL but a third alternative?

I just don't see the need for it, at least for a few decades.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3184 posts, RR: 4
Reply 47, posted (12 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2375 times:

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 42):
How can I say this tactfully? The area around OPF is far from being in the top rankings of South Florida or for that matter the entire Sunshine State's toniest neighborhoods. So unless one is going to develop public housing or displace the locals and gentrify the area, OPF will still be in business. It wouldn't be a bad alternative but not a replacement for FLL and MIA. I could imagine a LCC setting up shop at OPF if allowed. OPF with commercial service would be akin to ACY.

I know this is brought up later by cmf. The area west of Opa Locka is Miami Lakes, which is a very nice area. You tell them they are getting commercial service at OPF you can bet they will be up in arms. Commercial aircraft mean "noise" even though most commercial aircraft now would be quieter than a lot of the biz jet traffic that flies to OPF (there are a lot of Gulfstream IIs,IIIs, Lear 25s and even some Lockheed Jetstars there). It doesn't matter because commercial traffic always means "noise"


However, you are partially right Zippy - 37th Avenue is the road you come in on to go to Opa Locka, that goes by housing projects. The area east of Opa Locka is Miami Gardens (formerly known as Caroll City) and the actual city of Opa Locka - and that isn't exactly the nicest area around Florida either.

There are a lot of things to ponder at OPF.

You would have to upgrade it to Part 139 standards. You have the runways for it and stuff. Where do you set up the terminal? or would one of the 3 FBOs act as a terminal?

Most of all the LCCs are flying to FLL. There is much better access from I-95/I-595/US-1. The freeway does not go directly by Opa Locka. There is the Palmetto Expressway about a mile north, which connects you to both I-95 and I-75. I don't know if you ever been on 37th Avenue anytime after 2pm near the Palmetto Freeway but the traffic is terrible there and it isn't exactly a busy area. The whole intersection sucks between the traffic lights there and the entrance to St. Thomas University nearby. Add more traffic from a commercial airport now, you have a mess. They would have to do a lot of work on 37th like widen it, make it safer as well as improve the look around there (I am not trying to run down the ghetto, but does Miami want this for a first impression when out of town people arrive?)

Unless they put the entrance on the west side of Opa Locka from the Miami Lakes side where there is room for development.

Another factor is the proximity of the airports. You are talking a matter of about 5 miles to MIA and another 5-6 to FLL. It is an area already overcrowded with commercial traffic, adding more will be an ATC and approach control nightmare. MIA traffic overflies OPF regularly. I am sure aircraft departing OPFnow have to stay below a certain level due to MIA and FLL overflies. It is easy to do with biz jets and props and the occassional commercial size aircraft that is going to OPF for paint/maintenance or to be scrapped, but regularly scheduled flights would be another

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 42):
I still hold hope we WN/FL will break into MIA. There's enough business for us and them in additon to FLL. I hope we and MIA can make a sweet deal so we can start MIA service sooner rather than later.

I take it you work for Southwest

Quoting cmf (Reply 43):
When did Miami Lakes become that bad? Also, things change. It isn't long ago you couldn't get people to drive thru midtown middle of the day. Now people pay good money to live there.

I think he was refering to the actual Opa Locka City and Miami Gardens east of the airport, which isn't exactly known for its luxury homes.


User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 48, posted (12 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2306 times:

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 44):
I forgot who told me but, they were a Miami Beach resident and born in the Miami area and said the area around OPF was one of the bad areas of town. I could swear that it had been mentioned several times and recent regarding this area being not the greatest. I learn something new each day.

NASCARAirforce broke it down pretty well. Opa Locka (city) is usually rated worst in Miami-Dade and Miami Gardens is just a snippet better. I've always thought of Miami Gardens to start north of 826 so I don't think it is bordering the airport. If it is then it is on the north side and that area is actually pretty good with a nice enough residential area, a school and a business area.

Opa locka is on the east side and as said multiple times it is nothing to be happy about. The south side is mostly industrial.

Miami Lakes is on the west side and it is nice. Anyone Developing the airport would use that name. Remember this is a place where any piece of water next to a house is labeled a lake. They know what to call things  
Quoting zippyjet (Reply 44):
When you refer to Midtown are you talking about the areas around Biscayne Blvd and Flagler St. near the cruise ship entrance to the Port of Miami?

Midtown is close to Biscayne bay just south of i195. It was really run down. When I came to Miami the first time we had an office on 36th street and everyone had to be out before sunset. The new shopping mall (prob 5 years now) is just south of 36th and it together with the art in Wynwood turned the area around. The Design district is north if i195.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 44):
What are your thoughts about OPF having passenger traffic? Not as a replacement to MIA or FLL but a third alternative?

I don't see it. It is too close to both MIA and FLL and would require a lot of money to make it useful and even so it would be a single runway operation. The money would do a lot more at MIA or FLL and no-one will think twice about the drive.

If MIA and FLL somehow reach their capacity limit then look at PBI first and HST second.


User currently offlineByrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2361 posts, RR: 1
Reply 49, posted (12 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2273 times:

After reading this thread it would appear to me that the only best option is to keep MIA as the the main airport.

Quoting MIADeparture (Reply 29):
It will be a very, very long time before these two airports fill to capacity.

I agree, but once/if that day comes MIA should be the main focus of the city, county, and state even at any expense of FLL.

Once a predetermined traffic threshold is reached , maybe MIA should begin purchasing property north of the airport bordered by Okeechobee Rd, 36th St, and 67th Ave similar to what LAX did with Surfridge.

Im not sure what is meant by capacity in this discussion, but clearing half of that triangle would open enough space for two additional east-west runways. Emptying the entire area will free up space for a new north terminal plus hangars.



The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
User currently offlineRICARIZA From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2393 posts, RR: 26
Reply 50, posted (12 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2115 times:

Quoting Miami (Reply 1):
Let's face it. MIA and FLL need a total makeover.

MIA is currently under a total facelift; North and South terminals are new and nice (IMHO). Only the Central terminal is pending renovations.

Quoting Miami (Reply 1):
They can make the airport in Aventura or North Miami Beach. Right in between the two airports.

Where?? As someone mentioned before, you have to go "Dubai style" and get land from the water and even then, those are very expensive areas to build an airport...
 



I miss ACES, I am proud of AVIANCA & I am loyal to AMERICAN
User currently offlinehiflyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2172 posts, RR: 3
Reply 51, posted (12 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1909 times:

After TNT failed there was another proposal floated on combining MIA and FLL. Just W of I75 and N of the Turnpike sitting off Pines Blvd. right on the Dade north border and the Broward southern border...but way west. A failed idea at an amusement park left a lot of land open. (Blockbuster deal). Would not have reached the glades and the land then was open. However... Broward County (where it was to be located) pulled out and the plan dissolved. After that Hurricane Andrew leveled South Dade and housing went ballistic up and down the I75 corridor in South Broward.

At one point there was an idea at MIA to pull cargo off the field...turn the airport around...and start fresh for pax svc with long linear concourses on the west side....would have a close feed from 826/836 and the 112 would tunnel thru and the prevailing east wind would have meant shorter out to off times. Will never happen now of course.

More efficient aircraft are allowing other carriers to overfly MIA and Fortress American...even from close by FLL. The need to refurb E F G at MIA may not be there once FLL expansion is complete...one plan at MIA showed G coming down completely and not replaced as an example...it would become a commuter aircraft 'nub' between F and H.


User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2217 posts, RR: 1
Reply 52, posted (12 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1791 times:

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 49):

I agree, but once/if that day comes MIA should be the main focus of the city, county, and state even at any expense of FLL.
FLL is in a completely different city and county so their focus doesn't matter. The two airports are owned and operated by two different departments and they can't directly do anything at the expense of the other except for things like being more attractive/offering more incentives to airlines. I doubt the state cares enough to favor one over another they are both important airports.

[Edited 2013-10-03 15:05:07]

User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4501 posts, RR: 7
Reply 53, posted (12 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1762 times:

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 44):
When you refer to Midtown are you talking about the areas around Biscayne Blvd and Flagler St. near the cruise ship entrance to the Port of Miami?

I used to live on Miami Beach and actually moved to Midtown this year. There's mega high rise condos being built or planned right on the bay in the neighborhood.

Quoting mia305 (Reply 45):
I have to agree with zippyjet. I've lived I'm Miami pretty much all my life
and I can say that the area around OPF is not the nicest, cleanest areas.
It has a very high crime and drug rate in the area. There's no way commercial
service will ever begin at the airport not even as a reliver airport.

While I don't think there's any need for OPF to be a commercial airport, I would like to make a comment about the airport and the surrounding area by way of a comparison to MDW. Chicago is now (I believe) the most crime-ridden city in the USA. All those shootings each week aren't happening around ORD, they're in the city itself. And MDW is located where?


User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7308 posts, RR: 8
Reply 54, posted (12 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1744 times:

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 35):
How is the location of the airport station "screwed up"?

It not the location its the station, somehow someway the engineers and the Amtrack folks got their lines of communications crossed so the station built it too short to accomodate the trains coming in, now they either have to redevlop the station or close a section of road thus killing a few business houses.
Link below
http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/01/0...t-new-miami-train-station-too.html


User currently offlinezippyjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 5486 posts, RR: 13
Reply 55, posted (12 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1697 times:

Quoting N62NA (Reply 53):
While I don't think there's any need for OPF to be a commercial airport, I would like to make a comment about the airport and the surrounding area by way of a comparison to MDW. Chicago is now (I believe) the most crime-ridden city in the USA. All those shootings each week aren't happening around ORD, they're in the city itself. And MDW is located where?

Same could be said about BWI, it's south and west of the city propper and we've been a shooting gallery too though not as bad as our folks in Chicago. From what I understand about the OPF surrounding area it's way more built up than say around BWI. MDW from what I've seen looks like a working middle class neighborhood, not the best but not, the worst but again I've heard from many different folks that the area around OPF is not a place to take a hottie you want to impress and I'll leave it at that.

Quoting par13del (Reply 54):

I wouldn't expect anything less than the C.F. that is Amtrak!   

This is far reaching and a remote what if but, if the climate change pundits are correct and sea level rises MIA could be swimming with the fishies way down the line then there's an issue regarding replacement or other major changes.
I was just at MIA a couple weeks ago and it didn't look too shabby. Even the traffic lanes outside baggage claim lower level now have LED lighting and looked OK. And J didn't look bad either. Where US gates are there could be more accessible eating choices, Hurl of Sandwich is mmm mediocre at best.

And North Terminal Empire AA is even newer. Yes, E F And G are due for extreme airport makeover and hopefully will be done soon; especially when we finally come to town (WN)   



I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
User currently offlinemilesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2001 posts, RR: 6
Reply 56, posted (12 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1665 times:

The idea of building a new airport to combine MIA and FLL is about like suggesting that NYC build a new airport in Rego Park, halfway between LGA and JFK. Not only are both airports needed and close to population centers, but there is OPK if needed. Additionally, in the 1970's there were several large abandoned military fields between FLL and MIA that were redeveloped, one Master Field, used by the Navy until 1959 with Jet fighters, is the site of Miami Dade Community College. Overflow traffic from FLL can go to PBI, and Homestead AFB could be made a commercial airport if the area south of MIA continues to grow.

User currently offlineexFWAOONW From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 405 posts, RR: 0
Reply 57, posted (12 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1654 times:

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 55):

Quoting par13del (Reply 54):


I wouldn't expect anything less than the C.F. that is Amtrak!

I wouldn't be so quick to throw Amtrak under the bus. They have to work with clueless polical hacks thanks to their micromanaging overlords at congress.



Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?
User currently offlinezippyjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 5486 posts, RR: 13
Reply 58, posted (12 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1593 times:

Quoting exFWAOONW (Reply 57):

These days, almost anything beholden to our clown college I mean government is throw under the bus worthy. Though maybe by guilt, Amtrak is government to me. Just my 2 cents. Let us hope we never become a nation where there is one national type airline government style.



I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3184 posts, RR: 4
Reply 59, posted (12 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1476 times:

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 49):
Once a predetermined traffic threshold is reached , maybe MIA should begin purchasing property north of the airport bordered by Okeechobee Rd, 36th St, and 67th Ave similar to what LAX did with Surfridge.

Im not sure what is meant by capacity in this discussion, but clearing half of that triangle would open enough space for two additional east-west runways. Emptying the entire area will free up space for a new north terminal plus hangars.

So in other words, displace and level half of Miami Springs including their downtown? Once again you are talking billions in relocating people and businesses.

It would be cheaper to just realign the terminals, provide incentives to move air cargo to HST and build a 4th parallel runway, which would mean knocking down Concourses F-J and start building westward and closing 12/30.

Quoting hiflyer (Reply 51):
At one point there was an idea at MIA to pull cargo off the field...turn the airport around...and start fresh for pax svc with long linear concourses on the west side....would have a close feed from 826/836 and the 112 would tunnel thru and the prevailing east wind would have meant shorter out to off times. Will never happen now of course

That was the option I threw out there. It would be costly, but would be cheaper than leveling Miami Springs or a whole new airport.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 53):
While I don't think there's any need for OPF to be a commercial airport, I would like to make a comment about the airport and the surrounding area by way of a comparison to MDW. Chicago is now (I believe) the most crime-ridden city in the USA. All those shootings each week aren't happening around ORD, they're in the city itself. And MDW is located where?

Thats just like the old Detroit City Airport DET. There have been several attempts to have airline service there. The runways were too short there for any planes to leave fully loaded and the neighborhood is not exactly in a desireable location either. I don't think the area around OPF is quite as bad as around DET, but still a lot of people are not going to want to go there.


User currently offlinemia305 From United States of America, joined Mar 2013, 319 posts, RR: 0
Reply 60, posted (12 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1452 times:

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 59):

Thats just like the old Detroit City Airport DET. There have been several attempts to have airline service there. The runways were too short there for any planes to leave fully loaded and the neighborhood is not exactly in a desireable location either. I don't think the area around OPF is quite as bad as around DET, but still a lot of people are not going to want to go there.


   amen


User currently offlineMiadeparture From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 8 posts, RR: 0
Reply 61, posted (12 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1445 times:

Quoting mia305 (Reply 45):
Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 47):

OPF is pretty much a bizjet airport. Although there is a small GA presence, MDAD and the FBO's that lease the land have clearly demonstrated their desire to not support GA. ie, no approvals to build T hangars. MDAD's basic philosophy: MIA=airlines. OPF=Corporate/private Jet relief. TMB/X51=GA. As far as the "hood" around OPF: the money that rolls on wheels to OPF and out on the red carpet to the idling GV isn't too worried. It's that money that is influencing OPF to stay the way it is.
As far as airpace...FLL's new Runway 10R will require us to modify the way we run traffic into FLL and OPF. At present, aircraft from the Southeast are sent east of FLL, northwest bound to join the left downwind. This de-conflicts MIA/OPF traffic and sets everybody up for the left base to the ONLY runway. When 10R opens up, like 9R years ago, a right downwind can now be run. This complicates, but does not restrict, MIA/OPF traffic. OPF traffic can be run at a decent rate in either situation, but the difference in aircraft type does restrict the arrival rate, ie the miles in trail of a Lear behind a C172 won't be 3-4 miles, but like 7 so it can compress to almost 3.
The lowest shelf of the bravo is 3000ft near OPF. Our problem area is at FLL (class C) ten miles west. Where private pilots (I am a private pilot and aircraft owner, by the way) think that just because they're outside the Charlie the jets disappear. Many TCAS RA's happen ten to fifteen west FLL.
This is a very interesting discussion.
Also, cargo carriers at MIA don't put as much strain in our OPS as people think. Their schedules are pretty much midnight, early AM and late PM. With some LAN/CWC/TPA stuff mixed through out the day. They won't move. They won't need to.


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