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Delta Adds SEA-SFO; Ups SEA-LAX/LAS  
User currently offlinepanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4910 posts, RR: 24
Posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 17671 times:
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Looks like Delta will be adding 6x daily SEA-SFO nonstops using E75s starting end of March 2014, increasing to 7x daily in June 2014. Flights have been loaded on delta.com and other GDS and are already bookable as of now:

SEA-SFO:

DL 5781 630am - 840am
DL 5805 855am - 1105am (start June 2014)
DL 5734 1000am -1210pm
DL 5736 1200pm - 210pm
DL 5738 315pm - 525pm
DL 5742 530pm - 740pm
DL 5787 825pm -1035pm

SFO-SEA:

DL 5734 7am - 905am
DL 5736 915am -1120am
DL 5738 1135am - 140pm
DL 5782 1pm - 305pm (start June 2014)
DL 5742 245pm - 450pm
DL 5787 550pm - 755pm
DL 5785 810pm - 1015pm

Also, SEA-LAX will go to 7x daily (6 E75s + 1 A319) while SEA-LAS will bump up to 5x daily (all CR9s). Appears that all flights are bookable now. DL will still codeshare with AS on SEA-LAX and SEA-SFO, but I can't find any codeshares on SEA-LAS anymore.

133 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3483 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 17452 times:

Wow, that's a lot of flights! Where are these planes going to be parking? Guess DL is trying to take control of the connecting flows in SEA, rather than continuing to rely on AS for feed.

Jeremy


User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 17370 times:

Sounds like a logical expansion of the Delta Shuttle branding out west that was recently announced.

Delta Shuttle Branding Added To LAX-SFO (by simairlinenet Aug 1 2013 in Civil Aviation)

Makes you wonder what route(s) out west will get it next.


User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11635 posts, RR: 61
Reply 3, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 17280 times:

Wow.

Is SEA big enough for the two of them? This is obviously not too dramatic an increase in capacity - relative to the market - on any of these routes, but in terms of the message it sends and its strategic significance, I think this is pretty major. As it stands now, I think there are only a few major U.S. markets left that DL isn't going to be linking to SEA (BOS, ORD, SAN and DEN come to mind immediately). Rightly or wrongly, this will certainly raise the questions again about the relationship between DL and AS.


User currently offlineMIflyer12 From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 1030 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 17237 times:

Quoting srbmod (Reply 2):
Sounds like a logical expansion of the Delta Shuttle branding out west that was recently announced.

One can wait for the Delta press release but I don't anticipate these will be branded Delta Shuttle. That creates an expectation of frequency that even six or seven a day doesn't get close to matching.


User currently offlineProst From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1045 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 17207 times:

Well, Alaska has been such a success at filling their planes with their own customers, it sounds like there isn't a lot of room for codeshare passengers. If Delta wants to feed it's international operations out of Seattle, as well as serve the cities their customes want, they need to serve markets such as as San Francisco.

User currently onlineMesaFlyGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 3131 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 17071 times:
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Well so much for the old argument that airlines don't have focus cities anymore. It's very impressive what DL is able to do in Seattle. I look forward to this continually strengthening relationship between DL and AS.


\________(---)________/ :) World's most beautiful aircraft: 757-200, MD-88/90, E-190, A321
User currently offlinewedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5910 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 17001 times:
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Quoting SESGDL (Reply 1):
Guess DL is trying to take control of the connecting flows in SEA, rather than continuing to rely on AS for feed.
Quoting commavia (Reply 3):
Rightly or wrongly, this will certainly raise the questions again about the relationship between DL and AS.

DL is bring their own brand in because AS doesn't have the capacity to accommodate both Alaska fliers and Delta fliers, and still maintain the connection traffic DL wants. But that makes four airlines flying between both SFO and LAX to SEA...others being UA, AS and VX.

Quoting panamair (Thread starter):
Looks

All starting in March?


User currently offlinepanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4910 posts, RR: 24
Reply 8, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 16934 times:
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Anyone know what the Min Connecting Time (MCT) in SEA is (from International to Domestic)?

I see DL selling some 1 hour connections next summer such as HKG-SEA-SFO and ICN-SEA-LAX:

DL138 HKG 10:00am SEA 7:55am
DL5806 SEA 8:55am SFO 11:05am

DL198 ICN 5:20pm SEA 12:05pm
DL5682 SEA 1:05pm LAX 3:44pm


User currently offlinepanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4910 posts, RR: 24
Reply 9, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 16901 times:
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Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 7):
All starting in March?

SEA-SFO starts end of March with 6x daily, and then goes to 7x in June
SEA-LAX - additional frequency comes online in June
SEA-LAS - additional frequency comes online in April


User currently offlinemercure1 From French Polynesia, joined Jul 2008, 1480 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 16856 times:

Quoting panamair (Reply 8):
Anyone know what the Min Connecting Time (MCT) in SEA is (from International to Domestic)?

Per GDS Delta says:

D/D... 1:00 online
D/D....1:10 offline
D/I... 1:10
I/D... 1:30
I/I.... 1:30


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17508 posts, RR: 45
Reply 11, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 16706 times:

This is what partners do! Not . Granted, there is no way DL can have a TPAC hub without being able to control the flow, but this makes things more complicated for AS/DL. Again.


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineavi8 From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 662 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 16692 times:
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Where are these airplane coming from??


avi8
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17508 posts, RR: 45
Reply 13, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 16674 times:

Quoting avi8 (Reply 12):

Where are these airplane coming from??


MEM?



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineMSPNWA From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1944 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 16667 times:

Wow, with what DL is doing in SEA, I don't see how anyone can say that AS and DL are good friends. Friends don't fight wars.

User currently offlinecaleb1 From United States of America, joined Nov 2008, 364 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 16629 times:
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So has Compass Airlines established a west coast crew base to accommodate crews flying along the west coast?

User currently offlineMSPNWA From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1944 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 16614 times:

Quoting caleb1 (Reply 15):
So has Compass Airlines established a west coast crew base to accommodate crews flying along the west coast?

As of now, no. They could use one though.


User currently offlineairtechy From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 502 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 16599 times:

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 14):
Wow, with what DL is doing in SEA, I don't see how anyone can say that AS and DL are good friends. Friends don't fight wars.

It seems the "friends" couldn't supply enough codeshare seats for Delta's rapidly expanding Seattle operation. Therefore, Delta has stepped in to take up the slack.  

Actually it probably means AS is flying with high low factors which is good for them too.

Jim


User currently offlineroseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9642 posts, RR: 52
Reply 18, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 16581 times:

Wow that is big expansion. SEA-SFO is taking on UA which is biggest in the market. Knowing UAs past performance in SEA means they likely retreat.


If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlinethreeifbyair From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 676 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 16441 times:

DL will have an interesting time parking these birds in SEA. Hardly any space at peak times of the day in the S gates.

I expect we'll see some $79 tickets on SEA-SFO again. Never thought OAK would be the premium airport but WN doesn't act very aggressively now and SEA-OAK is a mere duopoly compared to the bloodbath brewing on SEA-SFO.


User currently offlinedlramp4life From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 931 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 16444 times:

Quoting srbmod (Reply 2):
Makes you wonder what route(s) out west will get it next.

PHX? SAN? DEN?

It is very good to see DL growing in SEA. SEA has become its own region in the DL domestic system. With all these extra flights, what is the gate situation looking like?



PHX Ramp, hottest place on earth
User currently offlineDesertFlyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 515 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 16416 times:

Just what we need at SFO, more small planes connecting major cities. I completely understand it makes sense for frequency and economics, but the delays are getting worse and worse each year.

User currently offlineLV From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 2005 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 16418 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 11):
This is what partners do! Not . Granted, there is no way DL can have a TPAC hub without being able to control the flow, but this makes things more complicated for AS/DL.
Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 14):
Wow, with what DL is doing in SEA, I don't see how anyone can say that AS and DL are good friends. Friends don't fight wars.

I think AS will still continue to be a key part of DL's SEA strategy. I mean I am sure there were some calls between ATL and SEA saying "we need X amount of seats between SEA-SFO, Y amount of seats SEA-LAS, etc" and AS said "we can't provide that and accommodate our own customers" so DL said "well, we will have to do it ourselves". I am sure for feed from places like BOI, GEG, SMF, etc AS will still be key to helping top off the TPAC flights for DL.


User currently offlineMah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32783 posts, RR: 72
Reply 23, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 16237 times:

Quoting LV (Reply 22):
I mean I am sure there were some calls between ATL and SEA saying "we need X amount of seats between SEA-SFO, Y amount of seats SEA-LAS, etc" and AS said "we can't provide that and accommodate our own customers"

That's illegal. No such calls took place.



a.
User currently onlineMesaFlyGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 3131 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 16127 times:
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Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 14):
Wow, with what DL is doing in SEA, I don't see how anyone can say that AS and DL are good friends. Friends don't fight wars.

To me it seems that they aren't fighting a war, rather supplementing each others' services and growing together. If it was a war they probably wouldn't be codesharing.

Quoting avi8 (Reply 12):
Where are these airplane coming from??

MCI-SLC, STL-SLC, MSP-SLC, feeding the planes to SLC-SFO, which then fly to LAX and SEA.



\________(---)________/ :) World's most beautiful aircraft: 757-200, MD-88/90, E-190, A321
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17508 posts, RR: 45
Reply 25, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 16856 times:

Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 23):
That's illegal. No such calls took place.

  

Quoting roseflyer (Reply 18):
Knowing UAs past performance in SEA means they likely retreat.

And what about their past performance in SFO...

Quoting airtechy (Reply 17):
It seems the "friends" couldn't supply enough codeshare seats for Delta's rapidly expanding Seattle operation. Therefore, Delta has stepped in to take up the slack.

Well, I think it's something like that. LASSEA for instance starts at $178 roundtrip, or about 10 cents per mile. LASNRT starts at $889, or 8 cents per mile. I think AS just doesn't want to take DL's junk. If it were a straight mileage prorate, the LASSEA portion of LASSEANRT would be $137, so I can't blame AS for preferring the local. And the China fares start in the $600s, which makes the math even more unpalatable.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently onlineas739x From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6142 posts, RR: 23
Reply 26, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 16741 times:

This will go close to the top of my list on, not seeing it coming.

Quoting roseflyer (Reply 18):
Knowing UAs past performance in SEA means they likely retreat.

Highly doubtful. SFO-SEA is a huge market for UA. I'd suspect more 757's and 739 in the market

Quoting DesertFlyer (Reply 21):
Just what we need at SFO, more small planes connecting major cities.

Agreed. SFO will be a mess next summer when the runway construction begins already. This will not help things at all.

My question is were is DL putting these flights at SFO? They seem to be running the terminal (C concourse) near capacity as it is. I've noticed recently that over night parking has now expanded from behind A concourse to Plot-41 on the far side of the field.



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineTWA85 From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 223 posts, RR: 0
Reply 27, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 16774 times:

Could SEA-PHX and SEA-SAN be coming soon as well?

User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7192 posts, RR: 13
Reply 28, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 16783 times:

Quoting panamair (Thread starter):
DL will still codeshare with AS on SEA-LAX and SEA-SFO, but I can't find any codeshares on SEA-LAS anymore.

AS code share will probably disappear off all these routes.

Quoting Prost (Reply 5):
Well, Alaska has been such a success at filling their planes with their own customers, it sounds like there isn't a lot of room for codeshare passengers.

That's the company line, but is patently false.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 11):
This is what partners do! Not . Granted, there is no way DL can have a TPAC hub without being able to control the flow, but this makes things more complicated for AS/DL. Again.

If I were at Alaska I'd be dropping the DL relationship immediately. This is like giving your enemy access to your ammunition. AS is now gunning for a hub in SEA. It benefits AS in no way to continue the code share. They should deny them access to their frequent flier plan immediately.


User currently offlinethreeifbyair From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 676 posts, RR: 1
Reply 29, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 16683 times:

Quoting TWA85 (Reply 27):
Could SEA-PHX and SEA-SAN be coming soon as well?

SAN is an AS monopoly route, currently 7-8x daily. B6 at one time had a 1x daily but it is not operating currently. Yields are generally a little better than SEA-LAX. PHX has 3 airlines currently (for today, 6x US, 5x AS, 3x WN) all operating mainline equipment.

If I was DL management, I'd pick SAN. Less competition.


User currently onlineMesaFlyGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 3131 posts, RR: 5
Reply 30, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 16543 times:
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Quoting enilria (Reply 28):
AS code share will probably disappear off all these routes.

Why do you think that?

Quoting enilria (Reply 28):
If I were at Alaska I'd be dropping the DL relationship immediately. This is like giving your enemy access to your ammunition. AS is now gunning for a hub in SEA. It benefits AS in no way to continue the code share. They should deny them access to their frequent flier plan immediately.

In no way? More seats without having to use their own equipment, international connections, these seem like positives to me.



\________(---)________/ :) World's most beautiful aircraft: 757-200, MD-88/90, E-190, A321
User currently offlineMIflyer12 From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 1030 posts, RR: 0
Reply 31, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 16598 times:

Quoting as739x (Reply 26):
Highly doubtful. SFO-SEA is a huge market for UA. I'd suspect more 757's and 739 in the market

Tomorrow's UA SFO-SEA shows a CRJ, 3x CR7, a 73G, 3x 738, and a 757, so there's plenty of room to upgauge.

For reference, VX shows a 319 + 4x 320.


User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5433 posts, RR: 12
Reply 32, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 16530 times:

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 20):
PHX? SAN? DEN?
Quoting TWA85 (Reply 27):
Could SEA-PHX and SEA-SAN be coming soon as well?

Back when DL started adding this domestic feed out of SEA, such as to LAX and LAS, I thought SAN would be pretty high on their list of possible destinations to be added next. Didn't happen then, and still doesn't appear to be happening in the first half of '14. (DL wouldn't want to ruin SAN's status as strictly a large, healthy, hub-only connected out-station.)

I would expect that at least AS is mighty happy that they continue to have a very healthy monopoly in the busy (and well-served) SEA-SAN market! AS can just keep taking that money to the bank all by themselves.  

bb


User currently offlineplanesntrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5582 posts, RR: 28
Reply 33, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 16157 times:

Quoting MesaFlyGuy (Reply 6):
It's very impressive what DL is able to do in Seattle.

While I don't doubt DL's potential, I'm not sure we can yet say what they are "able" to do. Eighteen months from now we could be looking at a complete pulldown of this added capacity.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 14):
Wow, with what DL is doing in SEA, I don't see how anyone can say that AS and DL are good friends. Friends don't fight wars.

I don't know. When I was in elementary school, we would always call names the girls we liked the most.  
Quoting DesertFlyer (Reply 21):
Just what we need at SFO, more small planes connecting major cities. I completely understand it makes sense for frequency and economics, but the delays are getting worse and worse each year.

I'd expect to see a near-term frequency jump, but ultimately something's going to give. Can VX stay 5-6 daily? Who knows? Will DL pair it down to 4-5/day?

Quoting SANFan (Reply 32):
I would expect that at least AS is mighty happy that they continue to have a very healthy monopoly in the busy (and well-served) SEA-SAN market! AS can just keep taking that money to the bank all by themselves.

If the loads are light, it might not be worth it for DL to put their own metal on the route. If seats are plentiful, why would they?

FWIW, I think that E175 will be a nice aircraft to compete with on some of these routes. I can see some AS customers choosing the DL option (assuming they can accrue miles, etc.).

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently onlineas739x From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6142 posts, RR: 23
Reply 34, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 15894 times:

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 31):
Tomorrow's UA SFO-SEA shows a CRJ, 3x CR7, a 73G, 3x 738, and a 757, so there's plenty of room to upgauge.

Agreed. And UA will want to add capacity without adding flights next summer. So I believe we'll see the RJ's removed from the route.



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlinepeanuts From Netherlands, joined Dec 2009, 1438 posts, RR: 4
Reply 35, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 15594 times:

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 14):
I don't see how anyone can say that AS and DL are good friends.

What are you talking about? They're negotiating, can't you tell?  
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 25):
I think AS just doesn't want to take DL's junk.

Oh, kind of like how DL doesn't want to take KE's or SU's junk? Sorry, couldn't resist...



Question Conventional Wisdom. While not all commonly held beliefs are wrong…all should be questioned.
User currently offlinemodesto2 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2801 posts, RR: 5
Reply 36, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 15494 times:

I'm surprised that UA still operates 1-class CRJs on SEASFO. There's a definite lack of product consistency with that equipment serving the same market with 757s.

User currently offlineavi8 From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 662 posts, RR: 0
Reply 37, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 15434 times:
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Quoting modesto2 (Reply 36):
I'm surprised that UA still operates 1-class CRJs on SEASFO. There's a definite lack of product consistency with that equipment serving the same market with 757s.

I have been really disappointed in UA now that you mention it. The lack of product consistency is radical and absurd. Some aircraft have Wifi, some aircraft have DTV, some aircraft are new, some aircraft are torn and look like excrement, some aircraft don't even have E+, etc. I'm not saying they're a bad airline, don't get me wrong I do fly them.

Getting back on topic, What amenities do the DL E175 have? also, where are they pulling the aircraft from? Adding 6+ flights just like that must have required some aircraft shuffling around the system. Maybe plugging in ex-MEM used planes on other routes and pulling the E175 out for the SFO flights?



avi8
User currently onlineMesaFlyGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 3131 posts, RR: 5
Reply 38, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 15338 times:
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Quoting avi8 (Reply 37):

The E-175s have 12 seats in F and I cannot remember the mix of Economy Comfort and Economy in the back (I want to say it's 12/60 but I'm not sure). They have WiFi and are very comfotable aircraft to fly on.



\________(---)________/ :) World's most beautiful aircraft: 757-200, MD-88/90, E-190, A321
User currently offlinewedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5910 posts, RR: 6
Reply 39, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 15225 times:
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Quoting avi8 (Reply 37):
Getting back on topic, What amenities do the DL E175 have? also, where are they pulling the aircraft from? Adding 6+ flights just like that must have required some aircraft shuffling around the system. Maybe plugging in ex-MEM used planes on other routes and pulling the E175 out for the SFO flights?

According to DL's website, it has four rows of 1st class (1X2 seating) and coach as (2X2) seating with a total of 76 seats. It has Gogo Inflight Internet. That's enough for me.


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17508 posts, RR: 45
Reply 40, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 15086 times:

Quoting peanuts (Reply 35):
Oh, kind of like how DL doesn't want to take KE's or SU's junk? Sorry, couldn't resist...

Exactly, but they're not trying to build a trans oceanic hub. Who *is* DL on good terms with these days  ?



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineplanesntrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5582 posts, RR: 28
Reply 41, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 15045 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 40):
Who *is* DL on good terms with these days ?

Delta. Which just might be enough for them.  

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlinejpl777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2013, 5 posts, RR: 0
Reply 42, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 14846 times:

Is this SEA-SFO flight by Compass going to be marketed as another Delta Shuttle west coast route just like the SFO-LAX flights?

User currently offlineMSPNWA From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1944 posts, RR: 2
Reply 43, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 14525 times:

Quoting airtechy (Reply 17):

It seems the "friends" couldn't supply enough codeshare seats for Delta's rapidly expanding Seattle operation. Therefore, Delta has stepped in to take up the slack.

These expansions go so far beyond international connectivity that I just don't buy that as a reason. 6/7x to SFO is trying to gain a foothold on the route.

Quoting enilria (Reply 28):
If I were at Alaska I'd be dropping the DL relationship immediately.

With what we see on the outside, I would end it too. What I see here is DL using the codeshare to gain a large enough foothold into SEA for an attempt to control it. You have to nix this now.


User currently offlinechristao17 From Thailand, joined Apr 2005, 941 posts, RR: 8
Reply 44, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 14216 times:

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 43):
These expansions go so far beyond international connectivity that I just don't buy that as a reason. 6/7x to SFO is trying to gain a foothold on the route.

That was exactly my thought. If it were just a matter of route connectivity, they would run one, maybe two flights between SEA and SFO timed for connections with the international flights. This is throwing a lot more flights at the market than is needed to support connections.



Keeping the "civil" in civil aviation...
User currently offlineMIflyer12 From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 1030 posts, RR: 0
Reply 45, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 13803 times:

Quoting avi8 (Reply 37):
also, where are they pulling the aircraft from? Adding 6+ flights just like that must have required some aircraft shuffling around the system.

Delta could improve aircraft utilization by 0.1% across the 1200+ aircraft mainline + DCI fleet and find enough hours to add these flights. This is nothing in a network the size of Delta's.


User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5433 posts, RR: 12
Reply 46, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 13130 times:

Quoting planesntrains (Reply 33):
If the loads are light, it might not be worth it for DL to put their own metal on the route. If seats are plentiful, why would they?

IF loads were light then of course there would be no reason for DL to add their own metal on the route. Big "if". I see no reason to expect that the loads are light on AS between SAN and SEA. Do you?

AS ran 9 daily nonstop 737s on the route this last summer, and they currently fly about 7/day. AS does not generally keep empty flights on their schedule...

 

bb


User currently offlineplanesntrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5582 posts, RR: 28
Reply 47, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 13063 times:

Quoting SANFan (Reply 46):
IF loads were light then of course there would be no reason for DL to add their own metal on the route. Big "if". I see no reason to expect that the loads are light on AS between SAN and SEA. Do you?

I wondered if my comment would fire you up a bit.  

I did say "if".

Like you, I can only guess at the load factor as well as yield on the route for AS. I say "like you" because you didn't offer any figures to the contrary.

Having said that, it might be a total goldmine for AS. However, I suspect that if it were, someone else would be trying to get a piece of the action.

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlineADent From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1385 posts, RR: 2
Reply 48, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 13066 times:

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 31):
Tomorrow's UA SFO-SEA shows a CRJ, 3x CR7, a 73G, 3x 738, and a 757, so there's plenty of room to upgauge.

Plenty of room to downgauge. SEA-LAX is all RJ - the day I looked it was 2xCRJ and 1xCR7.


User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3261 posts, RR: 5
Reply 49, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 12999 times:

Quoting TWA85 (Reply 27):
Could SEA-PHX and SEA-SAN be coming soon as well?

I'd like to see at least a couple DL flights PDX-SEA, but chances are they will use AS/QX for this route as well.



AA AC AQ AS BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OO OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN
User currently onlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8542 posts, RR: 2
Reply 50, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 13008 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 3):
Rightly or wrongly, this will certainly raise the questions again about the relationship between DL and AS.

Delta has the capability to crush and part out AS within several years. This should be watched carefully by govt regulators.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7560 posts, RR: 18
Reply 51, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 12818 times:

Quoting TWA85 (Reply 27):
Could SEA-PHX and SEA-SAN be coming soon as well?

I wouldn't bet on it, unfortunately, for either route. AS is pretty well established in PHX as well.



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5579 posts, RR: 5
Reply 52, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 12767 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 50):
This should be watched carefully by govt regulators.

On what grounds? Competition isn't illegal. McDs can crush a mom-and-pop diner when they enter a market and Starbucks can put the local Coffee House out of business. While it is regrettable, it isn't illegal.



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlinerunway23 From US Minor Outlying Islands, joined Jan 2005, 2194 posts, RR: 35
Reply 53, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 12711 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 51):
I wouldn't bet on it, unfortunately, for either route. AS is pretty well established in PHX as well.

I'd say the new routes they will launch will probably depend on a mix of corporate contract demands and how many passengers currently use AS.

It seems like DL's strategy at SEA is to start with the main west coast destinations. My guess is that they will start heading to east-coast destinations afterwards. My guess for next west coast destinations they will start is SAN, PDX, YVR, PHX.

Ultimately though, when you start building up a hub, the value of having a partnership with AS will become very questionable down the line. This could get very interesting...


User currently offlineGoldenshield From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 6037 posts, RR: 14
Reply 54, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 12691 times:

Quoting panamair (Thread starter):
while SEA-LAS will bump up to 5x daily (all CR9s).

This hasn't been expanded upon, but the SEA-LAS flight goes from 1x mainline to 3x CR7/CR9 on 1/5, and then ups to 5x CR9 4/1.



Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
User currently onlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8542 posts, RR: 2
Reply 55, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 12634 times:

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 52):
On what grounds? Competition isn't illegal. McDs can crush a mom-and-pop diner when they enter a market and Starbucks can put the local Coffee House out of business.

Those are interesting points.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predatory_pricing

"predatory pricing happens when large companies with huge cash reserves and large lines of credit can stifle competition by engaging in predatory pricing; that is, by selling their products and services at a loss for a time, in order to force their smaller competitors out of business. With no competition, they are then free to consolidate control of the industry and charge whatever prices they wish."


Interestingly, Spirit sued Northwest in 2005 for this behavior, which was upheld on appeal, but then NW's liabilities were wiped in BK court.

http://www.cornerstone.com/Publicati...nes,-Inc-v-Northwest-Airlines,-Inc

The theory goes that only mega-carriers can exist, if they are allowed to strangle baby airlines in their cradles. No startup airline would ever be funded.


User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7192 posts, RR: 13
Reply 56, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 11677 times:

Quoting MesaFlyGuy (Reply 30):
Quoting enilria (Reply 28):
AS code share will probably disappear off all these routes.

Why do you think that?

All this stuff DL is adding in SEA (LAS/LAX/SFO/ANC) are AS largest routes. These are really cutting into AS revenue. Additionally, these are not all into DL hubs. That is a major no-no in this industry. Adding point to point routes into somebody else's hub is an act of war. Look how DL has responded to stuff like MCI-MSP and MSP-LAX in the past by F9. With a partner it is even more of a slap in the face.

Quoting MesaFlyGuy (Reply 30):
In no way? More seats without having to use their own equipment, international connections, these seem like positives to me.

Great for Delta. Terrible for AS. AS has given them the key to the city and access to all their corporate contracts through their FFP and the code share. They have to end the deal now before DL uses it to further displace them.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 43):
With what we see on the outside, I would end it too. What I see here is DL using the codeshare to gain a large enough foothold into SEA for an attempt to control it. You have to nix this now.

The next step would be for DL to move 3 or 4 CRJ-200s from their resting place in the desert and add BOI/GEG/PDX. If they do that plus a PHX/SAN or two they will have overlapped essentially all of AS key routes.


User currently offlineHiFlyerAS From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 958 posts, RR: 2
Reply 57, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 11088 times:

I'm anxious about these DL moves...it feels like they're putting the screws on AS to force them to sell. AS seemed to look upon DL as the benevolent partner but with these moves they must be feeling threatened. It's a two-way street however...AS has over the last few years started SEA-MSP, ATL, SLC...all DL hubs.

With this move by DL it looks like they're considering SEA now a hub, not some sort of focus-city. That would justify breaking the 'non-hub' tacit route agreement between carriers.

The other option for AS is to end their partnership and grow, baby grow. Buy another carrier and start flying more east-west out of Cali. Could this bring about the long-discussed AS-HA merger?


User currently offlineseatback From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 767 posts, RR: 0
Reply 58, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 10933 times:

Quoting HiFlyerAS (Reply 57):
The other option for AS is to end their partnership and grow, baby grow. Buy another carrier and start flying more east-west out of Cali. Could this bring about the long-discussed AS-HA merger?

Or, another option would be for AS to cozy up closer with AA and convince them to start SEA-LHR/NRT.


User currently offlineMIflyer12 From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 1030 posts, RR: 0
Reply 59, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 10912 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 55):
The theory goes that only mega-carriers can exist, if they are allowed to strangle baby airlines in their cradles. No startup airline would ever be funded.

This statement has no value relative to AS. It's not a baby airline. It's not a startup.

Today's flights SFO-SEA:

AS = 8 x 737

UA = 757, 3x 737, 2x CR7, 2x CRJ

VX = 319 + 4x 320

Delta's add of 6x E75 in a market this size isn't predatory. When DL adds a bunch of widebodies and sells 40% of its tickets on the route at $49 fares (the appeals court's finding in Spirit v. Northwest), then this is a relevant comparison.


User currently onlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3076 posts, RR: 7
Reply 60, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 10813 times:

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 52):
Quoting Flighty (Reply 50):
This should be watched carefully by govt regulators.

On what grounds? Competition isn't illegal. McDs can crush a mom-and-pop diner when they enter a market and Starbucks can put the local Coffee House out of business. While it is regrettable, it isn't illegal.

I don't think AS has to worry. They have far more brand loyalty on the West Coast. If AS can beat WN on their turf, they can certainly beat DL. AS isn't a mom and pop outfit.


User currently offlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6473 posts, RR: 9
Reply 61, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 10697 times:

[I think all this speculation about animosity between DL and AS is an airliners . net fabrication. Neither DL or AS has ever alluded to problems between the two.

User currently offlinejetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 3297 posts, RR: 35
Reply 62, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 10518 times:

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 61):
Neither DL or AS has ever alluded to problems between the two.

Agreed. Delta is investing hundreds of millions of dollars into building a West Coast gateway at SEA. They are making sure that their growing network has significant online feed to support it. This strategy will focus on the largest international feed markets from the Western U.S. AS will provide the filler.

AS could simply choose to eliminate the partnership, as suggested, but the unintended consequences of that action might be more than they are willing to live with. Delta is playing around the edges on these feed markets right now. AS doesn't want, or need, them to dive in head first.

So I think that AS sucks it up and plays good partner, enjoying the significant amount of traffic and revenue that Delta is providing them. The alternative is not for Delta to exit SEA, it is for Delta to grow SEA. Delta is committed to the SEA gateway strategy and AS knows it.


User currently offlineMSPNWA From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1944 posts, RR: 2
Reply 63, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 10158 times:

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 61):
I think all this speculation about animosity between DL and AS is an airliners . net fabrication. Neither DL or AS has ever alluded to problems between the two.

Do you honestly believe that they're is going come out publicly and say they don't like each other?

Actions speak louder than words. These actions are those of business rivals, not business partners.


User currently offlineAS739BSI From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 132 posts, RR: 0
Reply 64, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 10099 times:

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 63):

This has occurred with KE and now DL is after AS. Cash and credit might help you win out in the dominance game, but if the passengers vote with their dollars to go to other carriers, that'll send a clear signal. I do like the SEA international expansion but I do worry if there is enough demand for the two carriers to co-exist due to the enhanced competition, especially on SEA-ANC. Even B6 is on that route. AS is starting to look a bit vulnerable and I am not sure if they will be able to hold on.


User currently offlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6473 posts, RR: 9
Reply 65, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 10071 times:

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 63):
Do you honestly believe that they're is going come out publicly and say they don't like each other?

Actions speak louder than words. These actions are those of business rivals, not business partners.

I would expect from all the hoopalaw here on airliners . net, there would have been some statement by either carrier. Again any dispute is only in the minds of those on this forum since is fun to write about it.


User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7192 posts, RR: 13
Reply 66, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 10020 times:

Quoting HiFlyerAS (Reply 57):
I'm anxious about these DL moves...it feels like they're putting the screws on AS to force them to sell.
I haven't really seen it as an attempt to get them to sell, but I guess that is possible.
Quoting HiFlyerAS (Reply 57):
AS has over the last few years started SEA-MSP, ATL, SLC...all DL hubs.
There is an unwritten rule in the industry that you can fly from your hub to my hub, but when you fly to my hub from a non-hub it is crossing a line. AS never crossed that line. DL has several times.
Quoting bobnwa (Reply 61):
I think all this speculation about animosity between DL and AS is an airliners . net fabrication. Neither DL or AS has ever alluded to problems between the two.
Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 63):
Do you honestly believe that they're is going come out publicly and say they don't like each other?

Certainly it extends beyond a.net...
2Q2013 DL Earnings Call
Jamie N. Baker - JP Morgan Chase & Co, Research Division
Okay. And I'm going to try to sneak in a third since the first wasn't answered. Glen, any commentary on the state of relationships with Alaska Airlines right now vis-a-vis some of the capacity that you've added in Seattle? I certainly am not modeling for any sort of divorce in terms of the relationship there, though it's been suggested here and there that maybe both sides could, I don't know, enter a couples therapy in terms of trying to ease out some of the capacity issues. Any update on that?

Glen W. Hauenstein - Executive Vice President of Marketing, Network Planning & Revenue Management
We have a great relationship with our partner at Alaska Airlines. And we're so confident in it that we're continuing to build on our long-haul operations out of Seattle. And just yesterday, we announced that we would initiate nonstop service in conjunction with both Alaska and Virgin, between Seattle and Heathrow. And I think that really goes to the core of our confidence in our relationship with them, is that we're willing to continue to build our long-haul operations in Seattle where we see opportunities.


2Q2013 AS Earnings Call
Daniel McKenzie - The Buckingham Research Group Incorporated
Got it, okay. And then second here, you guys have all done a great job of keeping your codeshare partners happy. But as Delta continues to expand out of Seattle, looks like it's increasingly bumping up against one world. So I guess, it looks like there could be a little friction. From your perspective, what's the trick to keeping both partners happy longer term? And what do you -- do you think you can keep them happy longer-term? And I guess what I'm really getting at here is does it possibly require further investment at Seattle to perhaps bring even more value to both members?

Bradley D. Tilden - Chief Executive Officer, President, Director , Chairman of Management Executive Committee, President of Alaska Airlines, Chief Executive Officer of Horizon Air and Chief Executive Officer of Alaska Airlines
Yes, Dan this is Brad. As Brandon said, welcome back, it's good to have you covering us again. I think absolutely. I think both partners, both Delta and American, understand our strategy of having alliance relationships with both Delta and American, and both are okay with that. I do think that these alliances are complicated and that once in a while, there are little skirmishes, or little frictions that arise. What you need to have is a couple of things. One, you need to have a relationship where you sit down and you talk and you understand each other's needs and you work them out. And you also need to have a natural reason for the relationship to exist. And we have that with both American and Delta. If you take Delta as an example. They really want to grow international widebody flights out of Seattle and they've gone from 4 or 5 widebodies a few years ago. I think they announced Seattle, Heathrow this week and they're at 10 today maybe going to 11 or something like that. So anyway, so there's -- and that's a relationship where we do have natural opportunity to help Delta and I think helping Delta will help Alaska as well. So I don't see any -- I think it's a good strategy for Alaska Air Group to be -- to have deep relationships with both American and Delta. And I think that we're going to have to pay attention to this over time and make sure that we're doing things that are kind of supporting both folks and helping us grow the revenue pie. And that's going to take some work. But I'm confident that we're going to get the work done and that this is going to work out and this is a good, stable long-term strategy for us.


I read that as Delta is happy and AS is worried.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 62):
AS could simply choose to eliminate the partnership, as suggested, but the unintended consequences of that action might be more than they are willing to live with.

I think it is much worse for DL than AS to eliminate the code share.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 62):
So I think that AS sucks it up and plays good partner, enjoying the significant amount of traffic and revenue that Delta is providing them.

Significant, but the feed is critical for Delta's Asian routes and the reverse is not true to anything that AS flies.


User currently offlineStuckInCA From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1961 posts, RR: 0
Reply 67, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 10014 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 28):
If I were at Alaska I'd be dropping the DL relationship immediately. This is like giving your enemy access to your ammunition. AS is now gunning for a hub in SEA. It benefits AS in no way to continue the code share. They should deny them access to their frequent flier plan immediately.

I'm not sure how I feel about that. I, and many I work with, fly plenty of AS as we are in the SEA area and so we all use Alaska MVP. That said, most of us accrue the bulk of our miles on Delta. If the partnership were dropped, I'd probably have to consider being more loyal to DL as when and where I fly most often this would do me more good.


User currently offlineCoronado From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1177 posts, RR: 2
Reply 68, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 9978 times:
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To me the target is United. Delta and Alaska recognize that together they can build a strong hub at SEA to draw people from western markets to SEA and bring SFO down a notch or two while UA works through its merger issues.

Also There's a lot of people at Wells Fargo in SF who still have strong ties to Minneapolis and Northwest Air and hence Delta FF program. (don't forget Norwest Corp took over Wells Fargo and moved a ton of people from Minneapolis to run things at the new HQ in SanFran.). Plus Northwest and Delta Miles don't expire!



The Original Coronado: First CV jet flights RG CV 990 July 1965; DL CV 880 July 1965; Spantax CV990 Feb 1973
User currently offlinewedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5910 posts, RR: 6
Reply 69, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 9984 times:
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Quoting jetlanta (Reply 62):
So I think that AS sucks it up and plays good partner, enjoying the significant amount of traffic and revenue that Delta is providing them. The alternative is not for Delta to exit SEA, it is for Delta to grow SEA. Delta is committed to the SEA gateway strategy and AS knows it.

That's what DL said about PDX.


User currently onlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3076 posts, RR: 7
Reply 70, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 9886 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 66):

I read that as Delta is happy and AS is worried.

I don't see where you get that at all from Brad Tilden's statement. As others stated, I think the friction between DL and AS is something we on A.net make up. Apparently, DL feels there is a market for additional service on the west coast. Just like AS thought there was a market for some additional flights to MSP, SLC and ATL. Big deal.


User currently onlineMesaFlyGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 3131 posts, RR: 5
Reply 71, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 9840 times:
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Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 70):
Quoting enilria (Reply 66):
I read that as Delta is happy and AS is worried.
I don't see where you get that at all from Brad Tilden's statement. As others stated, I think the friction between DL and AS is something we on A.net make up. Apparently, DL feels there is a market for additional service on the west coast. Just like AS thought there was a market for some additional flights to MSP, SLC and ATL. Big deal.

Agreed, to me that sounded pretty optimistic. He stated that they will, logically, watch the relationships to make sure they don't push it too far, but I also like how he described it as a relationship in which all parties can sit down and realize that they have to do what is best for themselves and understand each others' needs. This sounds like a very professional and civil relationship that puts a good image in my mind.



\________(---)________/ :) World's most beautiful aircraft: 757-200, MD-88/90, E-190, A321
User currently offlineSHUPirate1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3670 posts, RR: 16
Reply 72, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 9841 times:

I assume Delta is close to being maxed out on gate space in Seattle...where are they going to expand if they really decide to go for blood?


Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
User currently offlinethreeifbyair From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 676 posts, RR: 1
Reply 73, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 9827 times:

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 72):
I assume Delta is close to being maxed out on gate space in Seattle...where are they going to expand if they really decide to go for blood?

Besides the large South Satellite operation, DL has departures leaving from B concourse. I think there is a bit of slack on A that DL could access perhaps. I don't know if UA is leasing all of the end of A or just using it for RONs and peak ops. A, B, and S are all on the same airport train loop, but 3 concourses will be operationally complex.


User currently offlineHiFlyerAS From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 958 posts, RR: 2
Reply 74, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 9761 times:

Quoting Coronado (Reply 68):
To me the target is United. Delta and Alaska recognize that together they can build a strong hub at SEA to draw people from western markets to SEA and bring SFO down a notch or two while UA works through its merger issues.

This crossed my mind as well. The biggest loser will likely be UA...a shadow of their former selves in SEA. It will hurt VX as well...still a small player on the west coast.

As stated earlier, AS maybe can't provide the seats needed as feed for DL (or won't at the fares offered by DL) so DL is putting RJ's on these routes to provide the feed for their own Asia gateway. I don't see AS reducing capacity on any west coast routes shared by DL (still sorry for the loss of the 2x SEA-ATL though down to 1x).

AS just announced a conversion of five options to firm orders for more 737-900ER's....that doesn't sound like a company that's scared to compete.


User currently offlinejetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 3297 posts, RR: 35
Reply 75, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 9709 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 66):
There is an unwritten rule in the industry that you can fly from your hub to my hub, but when you fly to my hub from a non-hub it is crossing a line. AS never crossed that line. DL has several times.

SEA is getting close to generating nearly as much O&D revenue at SEA as AS. I'm not sure your rule applies here, my friend.

Quoting enilria (Reply 66):
I think it is much worse for DL than AS to eliminate the code share.
Quoting enilria (Reply 66):
Significant, but the feed is critical for Delta's Asian routes and the reverse is not true to anything that AS flies.

What if most of the AS' contribution comes from feed in the LAX, LAS and SFO markets? And what if the remaining major markets could be easily covered with with a >10 aircraft investment into SAN, PHX, DEN, for example?

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 69):
That's what DL said about PDX.

If that make you feel better.


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17508 posts, RR: 45
Reply 76, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 9564 times:

Quoting HiFlyerAS (Reply 74):
This crossed my mind as well. The biggest loser will likely be UA...a shadow of their former selves in SEA. It will hurt VX as well...still a small player on the west coast.

I don't think the airline that just announced CTU has anything to worry about from the one that is still trying to find its first HKG nonstop, any time soon. But we can check back in when DL sorts out which of its partners are partners and which are its competitors . That said, once again VX is collateral damage in a major 2-3+ way competition with carriers that have far more equipment to throw at a route.

Quoting threeifbyair (Reply 73):
A, B, and S are all on the same airport train loop, but 3 concourses will be operationally complex.

I don't think it'd be too bad; they're all pretty close to each other and that train is pretty manageable. SEA will make it work for DL, as DL promises long term investment and attractive longhaul routes with a similar level of commitment as their NYC project.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinejetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 3297 posts, RR: 35
Reply 77, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 9523 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 76):
I don't think it'd be too bad; they're all pretty close to each other and that train is pretty manageable. SEA will make it work for DL, as DL promises long term investment and attractive longhaul routes with a similar level of commitment as their NYC project.

Ditto. If Delta can make ATL and JFK work, I don't think SEA is going to be an issue for passengers.


User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7192 posts, RR: 13
Reply 78, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 9185 times:

Quoting Coronado (Reply 68):
To me the target is United.

Was UA the target on SEA-ANC and SEA-LAS? Obviously that makes no sense.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 70):
I don't see where you get that at all from Brad Tilden's statement. As others stated, I think the friction between DL and AS is something we on A.net make up.
Quoting enilria (Reply 66):
once in a while, there are little skirmishes, or little frictions that arise.

He clearly says there is friction. I think he is downplaying it, but he is definitely acknowledging it.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 75):
What if most of the AS' contribution comes from feed in the LAX, LAS and SFO markets?

Then they are screwed because DL has added all three.


User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3261 posts, RR: 5
Reply 79, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 9078 times:

Quoting HiFlyerAS (Reply 74):
The biggest loser will likely be UA...a shadow of their former selves in SEA

At one time UA was a big player in SEA. I have said, and will continue to be convinced that, UAs era at SEA is almost over. Intra Northwest flying with UAX will end eventually, and SEA-NRT will go away, SEA will get service to domestic UA hubs, EWR, IAH, SFO, IAD, ORD, with ANC & CLE seasonally.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 75):
If that make you feel better.

We all know the reason DL pulled the plug on PDX was the INS issues passengers were having at PDX, and that was keeping foreigners from wanting to transit PDX, pretty simple, but still unfortunate.



AA AC AQ AS BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OO OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN
User currently onlineMesaFlyGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 3131 posts, RR: 5
Reply 80, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 9028 times:
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Quoting enilria (Reply 78):
He clearly says there is friction. I think he is downplaying it, but he is definitely acknowledging it.

He clearly says that there have been some instances of friction. He never said whether it was with DL, AA, or whoever it may be. He also said that the current system is a stable and positive long term plan.

Quoting enilria (Reply 78):
Quoting jetlanta (Reply 75):What if most of the AS' contribution comes from feed in the LAX, LAS and SFO markets?
Then they are screwed because DL has added all three.

LAX-SEA: AS--12x daily 737s; DL--7 daily E-Jets and an a319
LAX-LAS: AS--9x daily 737s; DL--5x daily CRJ-900s
LAX-SFO: AS--8 daily 737s; DL--6 daily E-Jets.

If you look at this from a different angle:

SEA-SFO: AS--144F/1128Y; DL--72F/384Y................................AS has 66% more Y seats and 50% more F seats
SEA-LAX: AS--148F/1432Y; DL--114F/562Y...............................AS has 61% more Y seats and 23% more F seats
SEA-LAS: AS--124F/1172Y; DL--60F/320Y ................................AS has 73% more Y seats and 52% more F seats

I'll respectfully reserve the word "screwed" for when for has less of a percentage of the seats between the two.



\________(---)________/ :) World's most beautiful aircraft: 757-200, MD-88/90, E-190, A321
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17508 posts, RR: 45
Reply 81, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 8956 times:

Quoting MesaFlyGuy (Reply 80):

He clearly says that there have been some instances of friction. He never said whether it was with DL, AA, or whoever it may be. He also said that the current system is a stable and positive long term plan.

Partners don't blanket each other's hubs. You have to be pretty Pollyanna to think everything is fine and dandy when DL is picking off existing AS routes. DL is making SEA its west coast hub. With or without AS. Period.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently onlineMesaFlyGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 3131 posts, RR: 5
Reply 82, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 8899 times:
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Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 81):
Partners don't blanket each other's hubs. You have to be pretty Pollyanna to think everything is fine and dandy when DL is picking off existing AS routes. DL is making SEA its west coast hub. With or without AS. Period.

Why thank you, I do try to be a very optimistic person!    



\________(---)________/ :) World's most beautiful aircraft: 757-200, MD-88/90, E-190, A321
User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5957 posts, RR: 9
Reply 83, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 8894 times:

Quoting Coronado (Reply 68):
Delta and Alaska recognize that together they can build a strong hub at SEA to draw people from western markets to SEA and bring SFO down a notch or two while UA works through its merger issues.

There is a problem with that statement in that DL and AS can't work together to do anything involving route planning or building a hub together as neither have ATI. Fundamentally at the end of the day AS and DL are competitors....IMHO this has nothing to do with UA or VX or anything other then DL building its own feed at SEA. At the end of the day the only way for DL to ensure that their overseas routes have an adequate amount of feed is to control that feed....not to farm it out.



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlinebaw716 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2028 posts, RR: 27
Reply 84, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 8931 times:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 60):
don't think AS has to worry. They have far more brand loyalty on the West Coast. If AS can beat WN on their turf, they can certainly beat DL. AS isn't a mom and pop outfit.

This is the secret of Alaska Airlines. They OWN the Pacific Northwest and California markets to/from Alaska. The Compass E190s that DL is adding is specifically targeted at SFO, which means taking on UA directly with far lower operating costs.

Delta will never surpass Alaska's presence in the NW. They know it. So does AS. The issue for the two of them is to create some harmony so that they don't start really stepping on each other's toes.

If I read what Delta is doing, they are building up a west coast hub in Seattle which will allow them to bypass the issues in California (competition)...and also remember that SEA is 90 minutes closer to Asia and Europe than SFO or LAX. Very attractive to anyone from midwest who has to connect and not want to use UA or AA.

I'm personally looking for a SEA-IND to go up against UA's new service SFO-IND (to feed Asia) and AAs service to LAX. This is selfish, since I tend to commute a LOT between IND/SEA....

baw716



David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 85, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 8770 times:

Once again, the drama queens are out.

End the partnership immediately? Really?

Let's talk 6 months from now when nothing changes...yet DL and AS are now "enemies".



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineFlyPIJets From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 912 posts, RR: 2
Reply 86, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 8765 times:

In other news, Delta just announced they would be replacing paper manuals in the flight deck with MS Surface tablets.

http://allthingsd.com/20130930/delta...tablets/?mod=atd_homepage_carousel

Further, even though the some pilots lobbied for iPads, http://appleinsider.com/articles/13/...flight-bags-with-microsoft-surface

at least someone thinks "...Delta deal as being about money, travel contracts, and Delta's Information Technology staff historically being "in bed" with Microsoft. "

Hmmm, I wonder if this is the real reason for the flight increase. Travel contracts. Nah, couldn't be.

ae



DC-8, DC-9, DC-10, F28, 717, 727, 737, 747, 757, 767, IL-62, L-1011, MD-82/83, YS-11, DHC-8, PA-28-161, ERJ 135/145, E-1
User currently offlineusdcaguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 972 posts, RR: 2
Reply 87, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 8652 times:

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 77):
Ditto. If Delta can make ATL and JFK work

One thing to be aware of is that JFK doesn't work for DL the way EWR works for UA. Much of their flying goes over AMS/CDG with JFK being mostly for O&D passengers. SEA will end up being much of the same way as it will be incredibly difficult to pull people off UA and the Asian carriers in LAX/SFO and onto DL domestic flights to SEA before connecting to a nonstop. Yes, you can make tickets really, really cheap to get the business, but at that point it will just be cheap business. Just look at what happened at JFK to so many markets in Europe, the Middle East and Africa. Didn't DL fly to CAI, AMM and CPT at some point in time? What happened to VLC, LYS, BUD, OTP, KBP and countless others? Adding new markets is great, but you need to ensure you have a critical, cost-effective mass of travelers before making a major push. SEA has some opportunity to a number of markets, but DL's best bet is to count on travelers outside of LAX/SFO. Let's just hope they are many in number.


User currently offlinecrownvic From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1916 posts, RR: 5
Reply 88, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 8597 times:

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 54):
Quoting panamair (Thread starter):
while SEA-LAS will bump up to 5x daily (all CR9s).

This hasn't been expanded upon, but the SEA-LAS flight goes from 1x mainline to 3x CR7/CR9 on 1/5, and then ups to 5x CR9 4/1.

And I am not the least bit happy about connecting from a transpac wide-body, for a 2+HR CRJ flight to LAS. These airlines continue to make decisions to annoy the customer, just for the bottom line.


User currently offlineroseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9642 posts, RR: 52
Reply 89, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 8443 times:

I think this is more about attacking SEA's highest O/D markets. SFO is a huge market from SEA (goes back and forth as the biggest or second biggest O/D market) lAS and LAX as well are big markets. This is about growing the local traffic base. The yields will be horrible at first but will eventually improve. With time I think DEN will be on the way but yields would be dreadful with the competition. ORD might happen with time too.

Quoting enilria (Reply 78):
Was UA the target on SEA-ANC and SEA-LAS? Obviously that makes no sense.

ANC does compete with UA. Originally I think LAS was just a large O/D market and DL has some planes stuck on the west coast in the early evening. There are few departures that are eastbound that leave after 4pm until the red eye bank. That is 6 hours of exclusive west coast flying to keep utilization up. Operating SEA-LAS is a good use of a plane. But obviously the route has worked out to justify expansion.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlinewedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5910 posts, RR: 6
Reply 90, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 8290 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting crownvic (Reply 88):
And I am not the least bit happy about connecting from a transpac wide-body, for a 2+HR CRJ flight to LAS. These airlines continue to make decisions to annoy the customer, just for the bottom line.

Why don't you take KE direct ICN-LAS???

Quoting United1 (Reply 83):
Fundamentally at the end of the day AS and DL are competitors....IMHO this has nothing to do with UA or VX or anything other then DL building its own feed at SEA.

In the grand scheme of things, AS and DL compete in just a few markets.

Right now, the Seattle economy is doing well and improving. But it will be interesting at next airline downturn cycle.


User currently offlinepanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4910 posts, RR: 24
Reply 91, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 7737 times:
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Here's the official press release from earlier today announcing the new SEA services:

http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=43&item=2120


User currently onlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3076 posts, RR: 7
Reply 92, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 7635 times:

Quoting panamair (Reply 91):
Here's the official press release from earlier today announcing the new SEA services:

http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=43&item=2120

A few interesting points I noticed about that press release. They still list Osaka as a destination from SEA, even though it's being discontinued. Also note that they finally eliminated Memphis from their list of hubs (they do show CVG however).


User currently offlinerunway23 From US Minor Outlying Islands, joined Jan 2005, 2194 posts, RR: 35
Reply 93, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 7553 times:

Quoting panamair (Reply 91):
A few interesting points I noticed about that press release. They still list Osaka as a destination from SEA, even though it's being discontinued. Also note that they finally eliminated Memphis from their list of hubs (they do show CVG however).

And surprise surprise, not a single word on AS in that announcement.


User currently offlineGoldenshield From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 6037 posts, RR: 14
Reply 94, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 7530 times:

Quoting crownvic (Reply 88):
And I am not the least bit happy about connecting from a transpac wide-body, for a 2+HR CRJ flight to LAS. These airlines continue to make decisions to annoy the customer, just for the bottom line.

If you don't like it, take another way. No one's forcing you to fly such a routing. Besides, coach on mainline, and coach on the RJ is going to give you the same same product for this flight, and others, who are not you, might actually like this arrangement.



Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
User currently offlinelaca773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 4018 posts, RR: 2
Reply 95, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 7539 times:
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Quoting ADent (Reply 48):

Plenty of room to downgauge. SEA-LAX is all RJ - the day I looked it was 2xCRJ and 1xCR7.

It is, and this is why I think we see DL adding significant service in the SEA-LAX market. I wouldn't be surprised to see UA eventually drop this route as well as PDX. They are no longer a major player in the SEA/PDX-LAX markets.

I do find it interesting DL is adding that many rotations in the SEA-SFO market. That's a lot. It does help they will be using those nice E75s versus even the largest CR9s. DL will offer a better product over all compared to UA since they have such a wide variation in the consistency of their product on SFO-SEA. I am surprised for such a large market, they are operating 50 seat CRJs and 76 seat CR7s.

Slightly off topic, when does DL switch from CR7/CR9s on LAX-SEA to E75s? It's a nice change never the less. I think we can have AS, DL and VX operate together without any problems.


User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3261 posts, RR: 5
Reply 96, posted (11 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 7120 times:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 92):
Also note that they finally eliminated Memphis from their list of hubs

And despite this being all about DLs new International gateway at SEA, DL does not list it as a hub, yet.

Quoting runway23 (Reply 93):
And surprise surprise, not a single word on AS in that announcement

I hope AS reads between the lines with this obvious omission. I really have to wonder what might really be happening here.



AA AC AQ AS BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OO OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN
User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3178 posts, RR: 4
Reply 97, posted (11 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 7097 times:

Delta is adding a whole bunch of weird point to point again. I looked on the MCO website for new flights and they are doing P2P all over the place like MCO-BNA, MCO-Omaha, Austin, Birmingham, Louisville, New Orleans. I am not sure what metal they are using on the route but they are starting this point to point stuff in October at MCO. Most of it is 1X-2X a week

User currently offlineiowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4403 posts, RR: 6
Reply 98, posted (11 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 6843 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 97):
looked on the MCO website for new flights and they are doing P2P all over the place like MCO-BNA, MCO-Omaha, Austin, Birmingham, Louisville, New Orleans. I am not sure what metal they are using on the route but they are starting this point to point stuff in October at MCO. Most of it is 1X-2X a week

Looks like nearly all of it is Saturday only with various starting dates. All the cities you mentioned will be on CR7 equipment except for MSY which appears to be on a CR9.



Next flights: WN DSM-LAS-PHX, US PHX-SJD.
User currently offlinecrownvic From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1916 posts, RR: 5
Reply 99, posted (11 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 6814 times:

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 90):
Quoting crownvic (Reply 88):
And I am not the least bit happy about connecting from a transpac wide-body, for a 2+HR CRJ flight to LAS. These airlines continue to make decisions to annoy the customer, just for the bottom line.

Why don't you take KE direct ICN-LAS???

Where do I start? That is exactly what I had been doing, until the Delta/SkyPesos partnership now totally screws you, if you fly Korean Air. None of us will ever know for sure what the problem is between these two airlines, but it is really hurting the premium flyers.

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 94):
Quoting crownvic (Reply 88):
And I am not the least bit happy about connecting from a transpac wide-body, for a 2+HR CRJ flight to LAS. These airlines continue to make decisions to annoy the customer, just for the bottom line.

If you don't like it, take another way. No one's forcing you to fly such a routing. Besides, coach on mainline, and coach on the RJ is going to give you the same same product for this flight, and others, who are not you, might actually like this arrangement.

Are you sure about not being forced? Do you know anything about the transpac market out of LAS if you are Diamond with Delta? I only fly Business Class on transpac flights, so the product is quite different when you go from a wide-body in Business Class to an undesirable RJ. You do not get the choices you think you get. I fly on average 3 R/T to Asia per year. That means you either go through LAX, SFO, PDX or SEA. DL will never route LAS pax through SFO (there is no service on this route), so there are now 3 options. Depending on the day of the week you depart, it is a total crap shoot which of the 3 cities DL will route you. I would bet now with the beefed up SEA service, they are probably going to push me onto the SEA connection. Currently, they push you on the PDX connection, because it has more open seats than the LAX flight does, but if this AS/DL relationship continues to deteriorate, I see them pushing SEA more. The ideal solution would be for DL to put a damn LAS-NRT flight on and that would solve all my problems!


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 100, posted (11 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 6774 times:

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 97):
Delta is adding a whole bunch of weird point to point again. I looked on the MCO website for new flights and they are doing P2P all over the place like MCO-BNA, MCO-Omaha, Austin, Birmingham, Louisville, New Orleans. I am not sure what metal they are using on the route but they are starting this point to point stuff in October at MCO. Most of it is 1X-2X a week

Anything ex-MCO during the busy months is not "weird". These segments are EXTREMELY seasonal. And cater to a certain market; many of the seats being sold by travel agencies and tour operators. They did it last year as well. Look at how CUN pretty much explodes for DL during certain timeso f the year. On a Saturday, it's a mini ATL.

What you'll see in MCO/CUN/MBJ/NAS is much different that what they're doing in SEA. I don't see how SEA-SFO/LAX/LAS is P2P in the context that we know it now that SEA is officially a gateway (not a hub; big difference).



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlinesurfdog75 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 332 posts, RR: 0
Reply 101, posted (11 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6330 times:

http://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/n...adds-flights-puts-pressure-on.html

I think DL has just decided to start filling the one gapping hole in its network.


User currently offlineGoldenshield From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 6037 posts, RR: 14
Reply 102, posted (11 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6323 times:

Quoting crownvic (Reply 99):
Are you sure about not being forced?

Yes, you're not being forced. If you don't like the routing, don't accept it. Change your dates, or choose another airline. The fact that you find having to get the same EXACT* service on a smaller plane (x3 a day, vs. 1x) unacceptable is no one else's problem but your own.


*Okay, you might not get a hot meal in first, but everything else is equal.

[Edited 2013-10-02 08:48:28]


Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
User currently offlineFATFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 5804 posts, RR: 14
Reply 103, posted (11 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 6249 times:

The meaning behind DL's moves appears to depend upon someone's viewpoint.

In San Francisco, they view this as part of a larger move of new DL routes at SFO over the last year to pull business travelers away from United and Virgin.
http://blog.sfgate.com/cmcginnis/201...0/01/delta-jetblue-disrupt-at-sfo/
http://thebat-sf.com/2013/10/01/delta-staking-claim-sfo/



"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
User currently offlinemodesto2 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2801 posts, RR: 5
Reply 104, posted (11 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 6240 times:

Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 103):
The meaning behind DL's moves appears to depend upon someone's viewpoint.

True, but ultimately there's an underlying strategy for DL's moves and in this case, it's a focus on LAX and SEA, not SFO. But for DL to achieve those goals at LAX and SEA, SFO must be included.


User currently offlineHiFlyerAS From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 958 posts, RR: 2
Reply 105, posted (11 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 6008 times:

Seems Motley Fool has noticed there might be trouble between the two lovers as well:

http://www.fool.com/investing/genera...-to-be-friends-with-alaska-ai.aspx


User currently offlineplanesntrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5582 posts, RR: 28
Reply 106, posted (11 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 5695 times:

Perhaps it's as simple as DL being pro-DL and not being anti-AS. If they just want to be in control of their feed and not reliant on another partner, then it's pretty cut and dry. It doesn't have to mean there's a problem with the relationship, per se, but just no need for it. It's ran its course.

Cue Jennifer Hudson's "Neither One of Us".  

*tear*

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently onlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3148 posts, RR: 1
Reply 107, posted (11 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 5664 times:

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 1):
Guess DL is trying to take control of the connecting flows in SEA

That's exactly what Fox Business News channel reported today (Wednesday) specifically feed to/from the far East.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently onlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3076 posts, RR: 7
Reply 108, posted (11 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 5612 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 107):
Quoting SESGDL (Reply 1):
Guess DL is trying to take control of the connecting flows in SEA

That's exactly what Fox Business News channel reported today (Wednesday) specifically feed to/from the far East.

Yeah, I really don't think this is the big deal that people like to make out of every little thing (especially when it involves DL and AS). I'm sure people have nothing better to do then interpret every news release to see whether DL mentions AS and what the perceived tone of voice is.

I know which airline I will continue to fly if I go to LAX, SFO or LAS. And since I usually go to SNA, SJC or OAK it won't matter anyway since DL is not adding service to most of AS's destinations out of SEA.

And for the real drama, I still don't see what's in it for AS to sell out to DL if that's what DL is positioning for (and I'm not sure it is). AS knows most of the airline (and profits) would be gutted so fast if DL bought them. And those who don't believe so, I have some great waterfront property I'd like to sell you. AS hasn't been skillfully managing their airline to be very successful for all stakeholders, just to sell out to the class bully and be mostly gutted out.

If DL wants to add a few CRJs (big wow) to a few cities to feed their international flights themselves and maybe TRY (key word is "try") to take market share from AS, so be it.

AS has made huge inroads into HA's territory the last several years and I haven't seen HA retreating or suffering huge losses in market share.

I doubt the AS guys are laying awake at night over this.

[Edited 2013-10-02 15:16:31]

User currently offlineTriple7Lr From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 95 posts, RR: 0
Reply 109, posted (11 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 5559 times:

Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 103):

The meaning behind DL's moves appears to depend upon someone's viewpoint.

In San Francisco, they view this as part of a larger move of new DL routes at SFO over the last year to pull business travelers away from United and Virgin.
http://blog.sfgate.com/cmcginnis/201...0/01/delta-jetblue-disrupt-at-sfo/
http://thebat-sf.com/2013/10/01/delta-staking-claim-sfo/


"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain

This is the real story. The fact that DL and AS will code share on this route tells me the relationship is strong. However if I was UA I would be concerned. DL is definitely poaching with these additions. Is it safe to say DL believes their gaining traction on the West coast? If so how will UA respond?


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17508 posts, RR: 45
Reply 110, posted (11 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 5472 times:

Quoting Triple7Lr (Reply 109):
However if I was UA I would be concerned. DL is definitely poaching with these additions.

They're poaching cheap one stop traffic  



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently onlinerwsea From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3105 posts, RR: 2
Reply 111, posted (11 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 5418 times:

Quoting Triple7Lr (Reply 109):
Is it safe to say DL believes their gaining traction on the West coast? If so how will UA respond?

The old UA would have responded by simply cutting back capacity and making no attempt to compete whatsoever. Not sure how the new UA will respond, but yields aren't exactly great on this route to begin with (AS, VX, UA all fly the route, and WN flies to OAK). Will have to see how much of this capacity will stick around a year from the start date.


User currently offlineTriple7Lr From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 95 posts, RR: 0
Reply 112, posted (11 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 5426 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 110):

It wouldn't we a post about DL w/out this guy.    The fact is DL will pick up some O&D traffic and most importantly business travelers. The new DL doesn't use the dart board anymore. Sorry.


User currently offlinenomorerjs From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 474 posts, RR: 0
Reply 113, posted (11 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 5409 times:

When DL adds SEA/LAX to DFW, IAH, and ORD I will believe they are serious about SEA and LAX.

User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17508 posts, RR: 45
Reply 114, posted (11 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 5288 times:

Quoting Triple7Lr (Reply 112):
The fact is DL will pick up some O&D traffic and most importantly business travelers.

Sure they'll pick *something* up but it's stuff AS clearly doesn't want to touch with a barge pole. And let's look at the connections they'll offer from SFO over SEA. TYO? There are 4+ daily nonstops on 4 carriers including DL, so it'd poach from itself if anything. PEK/PVGSFO? 2 daily nonstops. ICNSFO: 4 daily on 4 carriers. HKGSFO: 4 daily on 3 carriers. Business travelers aren't going to take a one stop when there's so much nonstop competition.

Quoting Triple7Lr (Reply 112):
The new DL doesn't use the dart board anymore. Sorry.

I think SEA makes a lot of sense for them. Glad they put the dartboard away 



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineJetAmericaS80 From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 49 posts, RR: 0
Reply 115, posted (11 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 5286 times:

Alaska is already preparing to dump additional capacity into affected markets, and preemptively up the number off seats on SEA-BOI....

Cheers,
Jetty



The Best Buy in the Sky, Treat yourself to Jet America!
User currently onlineMesaFlyGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 3131 posts, RR: 5
Reply 116, posted (11 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 5283 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting JetAmericaS80 (Reply 115):

So you have something in writing saying this? Not doubting you, it would just be an intersting read.



\________(---)________/ :) World's most beautiful aircraft: 757-200, MD-88/90, E-190, A321
User currently offlineJetAmericaS80 From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 49 posts, RR: 0
Reply 117, posted (11 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 5275 times:

Quoting MesaFlyGuy (Reply 116):

Nothing sharable yet.

Cheers



The Best Buy in the Sky, Treat yourself to Jet America!
User currently offlineairtechy From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 502 posts, RR: 0
Reply 118, posted (11 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 5272 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 114):
Business travelers aren't going to take a one stop when there's so much nonstop competition.

Business people in SFO and LAX who want to fly to Asia on Delta metal will. This saves a connection in SLC.

Jim


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17508 posts, RR: 45
Reply 119, posted (11 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 5259 times:

Quoting airtechy (Reply 118):
Business people in SFO and LAX who want to fly to Asia on Delta metal will. This saves a connection in SLC.

They can do that over NRT right now.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineKirkSeattle From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 270 posts, RR: 0
Reply 120, posted (11 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 5158 times:

As a Seattle resident, I love Delta and Alaska Airlines. I use Delta for TRANSCON and Alaska for west coast and Hawaii. I'm happy to see the new LAX, LAS and SFO frequencies but on a CRJ? The S gates are going to be a mess. That tells me that Delta isn't competing with Alaska. They just want the extra feed and frequencies that Alaska can't provide. I'm a puny Silver Medallion on Delta which doesn't mean anything when travelling on Alaska. The swarm of MVP folks at any gate for Alaska is awful. Now with Delta's MQD (mile qualification dollars), I hope things will change with Alaska, but I don't think so. Interesting times ahead for sure.

Cheers,
KirkSeattle


User currently offlinePassedV1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 221 posts, RR: 0
Reply 121, posted (11 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 4897 times:

What do you all think about the E-75's becoming more significant with this announcement North/South with this announcement. The hole I see in Alaskas thus far announced strategy going forward is in the 100 seat jet arena. In about 5 years give or take the smallest mainline AS jet will have 152 seats and the largest Regional will be 74 seats single class. This seems to be a very large hole and to me indicates that AS has some yet unannounced plan whether it be a new capacity agreement and/or airplane order.

User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17508 posts, RR: 45
Reply 122, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 4582 times:

Quoting JetAmericaS80 (Reply 117):
Nothing sharable yet.

It's loaded. Share away 



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineADent From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1385 posts, RR: 2
Reply 123, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 4253 times:

DL has dropped SFO-NRT starting in april. See DL Ending SFO-NRT (by ANA787 Oct 3 2013 in Civil Aviation) .

User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5433 posts, RR: 12
Reply 124, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 4131 times:

Quoting JetAmericaS80 (Reply 115):
Alaska is already preparing to dump additional capacity into affected markets, and preemptively up the number off seats on SEA-BOI....
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 122):
It's loaded. Share away

It would be great if someone with knowledge of previous and the new AS capacity in these markets could compare so we can find out how much AS is actually adding. (SAN I know very well but these particular markets' schedules, not so much.)

Thanks in advance.

bb


User currently onlineMesaFlyGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 3131 posts, RR: 5
Reply 125, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 4048 times:
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Quoting SANFan (Reply 124):
Quoting JetAmericaS80 (Reply 115):Alaska is already preparing to dump additional capacity into affected markets, and preemptively up the number off seats on SEA-BOI....Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 122):It's loaded. Share away

Why is their website showing CRJs for the flights between BOI and PDX/SAN? And the seatmap has that of a CRJ-200, not a -700.



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User currently offlineJetAmericaS80 From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 49 posts, RR: 0
Reply 126, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3827 times:

Apparently, AS will be upping available seats on SEA-BOI by 37% (indicator of AS finding out a potential future
DL addition?), LAS by 34%, LAX by 8%, SFO by 40%; keep in mind these are year over year percentages based on 2013 available seats vs. 2014. Interesting response, interesting relationship. It's also interesting that Delta is now indirectly competing with AS on seasonal weekend ski destinations (DL to JAC vs AS to HDN)...

Cheers,
Jetty



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User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3261 posts, RR: 5
Reply 127, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3803 times:

Quoting MesaFlyGuy (Reply 125):
Why is their website showing CRJs for the flights between BOI and PDX/SAN?

I checked for June 18-25 2014, on Alaskaair.com and the 7:45am departure to BOI from PDX is a CR7, and the return at 9:10pm is also operated by a CR7, and that is the plane that will operate the BOI-SAN-BOI flight announced not too long ago.



AA AC AQ AS BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OO OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN
User currently offlinemsp747 From United States of America, joined May 2010, 323 posts, RR: 0
Reply 128, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3613 times:

Quoting laca773 (Reply 95):
I do find it interesting DL is adding that many rotations in the SEA-SFO market. That's a lot. It does help they will be using those nice E75s versus even the largest CR9s.

The CR9's are not a larger aircraft. Both it and E75's are the same size, seat wise. Both have 76 seats (12 in first/12 Economy Comfort/52Y)

Quoting JetAmericaS80 (Reply 126):
Apparently, AS will be upping available seats on SEA-BOI by 37%

Capacity wise, this is a route that has gone up and down over the years. I remember the days when it was entirely mainline. It has been a QX dominated route for about 20 years now. The big story would be if there is a return of mainline service to the route. Is there? Judging by the 37% number, I would imagine there are going to be one or two flights on 737s. Either that, or a shuttle like schedule on QX


User currently offlinemsp747 From United States of America, joined May 2010, 323 posts, RR: 0
Reply 129, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3567 times:

Quoting PassedV1 (Reply 121):
This seems to be a very large hole and to me indicates that AS has some yet unannounced plan whether it be a new capacity agreement and/or airplane order.

It would be interesting to see if they tried to fill this gap. I'm sure Bombardier would be more than willing to cut them a deal on some C-Series jets. Then again, what pilots would fly them? AS or QX? On the other hand, QX used to cover a much broader range of passengers, from the old 19 seat Metro's, 32 seat Dornier 328's, 37 seat Q200's, 69 seat F28's, 70 seat CR7s, to the 74 seat Q400's. Maybe AS has found it just makes more sense to fly all their routes with the largest aircraft possible: Q400's for smaller cities, and 738's or 739's for larger ones.


User currently offlinewashingtonflyer From Bouvet Island, joined Sep 2013, 499 posts, RR: 0
Reply 130, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3505 times:

Its interesting to look at comparisons at the CR9. I'm not sure if this accurate for US, but according to Seatguru, a CR9 for US Airways has 99 seats, while a Delta (Skywest) CR9 has 76. Thats a huge capacity difference.

User currently offlinemalaysia From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 3352 posts, RR: 0
Reply 131, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2913 times:

I heard that UA is now going all mainline on SFO-SEA


There Are Those Who Believe That There May Yet Be Other Airlines Who Even Now Fight To Survive Beyond The Heavens
User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5579 posts, RR: 5
Reply 132, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 2807 times:

Quoting malaysia (Reply 131):
I heard that UA is now going all mainline on SFO-SEA

  

I hope DL have strapped themselves in for a bumpy ride. With AS (the 800lb gorilla in SEA) and UA (the 800lb gorilla in SFO) both having piled additional capacity onto the route they have their work cut out for themselves.



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlinerunway23 From US Minor Outlying Islands, joined Jan 2005, 2194 posts, RR: 35
Reply 133, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 2780 times:

Quoting washingtonflyer (Reply 130):
Its interesting to look at comparisons at the CR9. I'm not sure if this accurate for US, but according to Seatguru, a CR9 for US Airways has 99 seats, while a Delta (Skywest) CR9 has 76. Thats a huge capacity difference.

US Airways has 79 seats on their CR9s. In fact the most I have seen on CR9s is 90 seats on Air Nostrum. I believe that is the maximum certified capacity for that aircraft. 76 seats generally tends to correspond to the maximum scope clause for American carriers, with the exception of US.


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