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Crash At SMO, Santa Monica, Citation Burning  
User currently offlinetimpdx From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 593 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 18401 times:

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2013/...r-landing-at-santa-monica-airport/

I perhaps saw this twin (if jet) on final while on an evening hike at Runyon Canyon just a hour or so ago. Hope that this was survivable.

[Edited 2013-09-29 19:40:08]

[Edited 2013-09-29 19:40:42]

37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinetimpdx From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 18419 times:

Now reported as Citation. I probably did see this on approach, I tend to look up a lot during my workout hikes there. The pattern for SMO goes over the area. Lots of smoke and fire reported.  

[Edited 2013-09-29 19:41:32]

User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4718 posts, RR: 11
Reply 2, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 18238 times:

While the first concern is for the safety of those involved, this is not something that SMO needs given they are under increasing pressure to close from the NIMBY's... pardon the poor choice of words but this will certainly fuel their fire.


Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26175 posts, RR: 50
Reply 3, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 18197 times:

Yes, I saw the large plume's of smoke afterwards.

Unfortunately another reason why jets and SMO don't play well. Runway is quite short (4,900ft) and community ends up suffering an annual crash or two sadly.


Plane involved was N194SJ

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N...J/history/20130929/2300Z/KSUN/KSMO

=



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4718 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 18102 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
Runway is quite short (4,900ft) and community ends up suffering an annual crash or two sadly.

4,900 ft is more than enough for any mid sized business jet and most manufacturers will attest to their ability to operate in and out of airports with runways that are in the sub 4,000 ft category.



Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26175 posts, RR: 50
Reply 5, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 18110 times:

Twitter image




Btw - wonder who might be onboard. Seems perfectly times for someone with a few dollars to be returning from a weekend out of town.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinetimpdx From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 17987 times:

I hike Runyon (5 yrs now) In th e evening and watch these jets come into Santa Monica and always wonder who is aboard...from SunValley...Park City...Aspen...

on this one, nothing sounded unusual as it passed overhead. I watched another as I finished my hike make a U turn...now I know why. Santa Monica was out of view by then. Took pics of downtown LA. Incredibly clear day, in fact just got back from PDX n B6 and really enjoyed my view as we came in over the Sierras into LGB. It was seriously clear. Wonder what went wrong on landing.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26175 posts, RR: 50
Reply 7, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 17966 times:

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 4):
4,900 ft is more than enough for any mid sized business jet and most manufacturers will attest to their ability to operate in and out of airports with runways that are in the sub 4,000 ft category.

Take a look at SMO...

Runway has a slope, over 60ft elevation decline. There is a hump, and downhill landing rollout westward.

Even FAA has questioned wisdom of fast jets and in 2007'ish recommended the ban on planes with C & D approach categories at SMO but was challenged in court.

Also the airport does not have conforming standard FAA runway safety areas due lack of space.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinewjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5369 posts, RR: 22
Reply 8, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 17857 times:

No survivors, according to the CBS station in LA.

User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21882 posts, RR: 55
Reply 9, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 17756 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
Unfortunately another reason why jets and SMO don't play well. Runway is quite short (4,900ft)

4,900 feet is about twice what that jet needs to land - I've landed a similar jet (CJ3, this was a CJ2) at SMO and had no issues at all. I've landed a midsize jet at SMO and didn't even have to use the full runway.

Reports are that a tire burst - that's something that could take you off the runway no matter how long it is (especially in a plane that has only one tire per landing gear). Can't pin that on the airport.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineFlyHossD From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 981 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 17717 times:

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 2):
While the first concern is for the safety of those involved, this is not something that SMO needs given they are under increasing pressure to close from the NIMBY's... pardon the poor choice of words but this will certainly fuel their fire.

First, rest in peace to the those so tragically lost.

Second, your comment about NIMBYs is spot on, but why are so many in aviation afraid to counter the NIMBYs? That is, does anyone ever go to community meetings (city council, etc.) and ask the NIMBYs if they want a highway closed after a fatal accident? The anti-aiport or anti-aviation NIMBYs always seem to be on the offensive; should that go unchallenged?



My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3184 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 17550 times:

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 4):

4,900 ft is more than enough for any mid sized business jet and most manufacturers will attest to their ability to operate in and out of airports with runways that are in the sub 4,000 ft category.

This wasn't even a mid size biz jet, this was a CJ2, which is on the small side. They could operate on about a 3500 ft runway

Quoting timpdx (Reply 6):
on this one, nothing sounded unusual as it passed overhead.

Citation CJ1-4 aircraft have an unusual sound on approach. I hear a lot of them coming into MCO, since they have a Citation facility at MCO. They have a strange whine to them.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 7):
Even FAA has questioned wisdom of fast jets and in 2007'ish recommended the ban on planes with C & D approach categories at SMO but was challenged in court.

Citations (unless it is the Citation X) aren't exactly known as being "fast" jets

Quoting Mir (Reply 9):
Reports are that a tire burst - that's something that could take you off the runway no matter how long it is (especially in a plane that has only one tire per landing gear). Can't pin that on the airport.

Actually you can - FOD or a hole in the runway that should have been rectified that caused the tire to burst.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21882 posts, RR: 55
Reply 12, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 17490 times:

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 11):
Actually you can - FOD or a hole in the runway that should have been rectified that caused the tire to burst.

Source for where that happened here?

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinetimpdx From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 17375 times:

No cut out or strange out of the ordinary sounds, like "problem" sounds. Now that you said that about the whine of the engines, for sure I noted this plane on approach. I know exactly where I was when it was overhead on final. Meh.

User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7982 posts, RR: 19
Reply 14, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 16713 times:

Airplane in better days:
http://www.airport-data.com/aircraft/photo/000336429.html

ASN report:

http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=161083

According to this site, the airframe was owned by Ginnaire Rental Inc. Someone most likely chartered it:

http://www.airframes.org/reg/n194sj

Registered to this company, however:
http://companies.findthecompany.com/...22501907/Crex-Mml-Llc-in-Malibu-CA

This address appears to be a private home in Malibu. Most likely a wealthy businessman owned it.



Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
User currently offlineIndianicWorld From Australia, joined Jun 2001, 3037 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 16652 times:

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/09/29/us...a-plane-crash/index.html?hpt=us_c1

Hit a hanger and the roof collapsed. Very sad.

RIP to those onboard.


User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3184 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 16525 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 14):
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 14):
Airplane in better days:
http://www.airport-data.com/aircraft/photo/000336429.html

ASN report:

Wow, you found one of my pictures. I am Florida Metal on airport-data.


The ABC news agency in LA just asked me for this shot

http://www.airport-data.com/aircraft/photo/336426.html


User currently offlinefsnuffer From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 252 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 14951 times:

Claiming to know the pilot. No reason to believe she is not be factual. FYI

https://www.facebook.com/judy.austin.9


User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4718 posts, RR: 11
Reply 18, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 14229 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 7):
Even FAA has questioned wisdom of fast jets and in 2007'ish recommended the ban on planes with C & D approach categories at SMO but was challenged in court.
Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 11):
This wasn't even a mid size biz jet, this was a CJ2, which is on the small side. They could operate on about a 3500 ft runway

C&D Aircraft require a 1,000 ft safety area on both ends (assuming the airport has over 500 annual operations on that category of aircraft)

Aircraft like the Citation (Exception being the sovereign and X models) (B) require only a 300-600 ft safety area.



Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7982 posts, RR: 19
Reply 19, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 13410 times:

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 16):
Wow, you found one of my pictures. I am Florida Metal on airport-data.

It was a nice shot! and that's some coincidence.

Lookng at those databases, none except for the ASN have been updated.



Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
User currently onlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10353 posts, RR: 26
Reply 20, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 12876 times:

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 18):
Aircraft like the Citation (Exception being the sovereign and X models) (B) require only a 300-600 ft safety area.

SMO doesn't even have that. There are roads and houses within a few hundred feet on both ends. And on the east end, the road/houses are down a small hill from the runway (not sure about the west end).

Anyway. Although most traffic is prop, I see business jets operating from TOA as well (I work across the street from it). On takeoff, they are off the ground probably halfway down the 5000' runway. I doubt it's particularly dangerous.



How can I be an admiral without my cap??!
User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3258 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 11626 times:

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 4):
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
Runway is quite short (4,900ft) and community ends up suffering an annual crash or two sadly.

4,900 ft is more than enough for any mid sized business jet and most manufacturers will attest to their ability to operate in and out of airports with runways that are in the sub 4,000 ft category.

737-800s land just fine on shorter runways in Brazil and EYW.


User currently offlinesuseJ772 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 826 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 10653 times:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 21):
737-800s land just fine on shorter runways in Brazil and EYW.

I would say EYW is "just fine" - my friends at DL say it is a captain's only approach and it is quite tricky - especially in anything but optimal weather. But it is still safe.



Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
User currently offlinemodesto2 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2819 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 10503 times:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 21):
737-800s land just fine on shorter runways in Brazil and EYW.

Point of clarification - DL only operates the 737-700 into EYW; the -800 wouldn't be able to profitably operate the route because of substantial weight restrictions.


User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3258 posts, RR: 7
Reply 24, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 10460 times:

Quoting modesto2 (Reply 23):
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 21):
737-800s land just fine on shorter runways in Brazil and EYW.

Point of clarification - DL only operates the 737-700 into EYW; the -800 wouldn't be able to profitably operate the route because of substantial weight restrictions.

GOL uses the -800s in shorter runways in Brazil.


25 DfwRevolution : It's not really relevant what a 737-800 with SP package can do when we're talking about business jet crash, which may or may not have even been cause
26 RL757PVD : Runway performance is not directly correlated to aircraft size. One key issue looming out there is the airport design criteria established by the FAA
27 NASCARAirforce : Thanks, yeah I got it landing at Sun N Fun show a few years back. Not the first time a plane has crashed and the news agencies found one of my Sun N
28 Highflier92660 : The straight wing Cessna Citation CJ series aircraft are unbelievably docile with amazingly short balanced field lengths. There is a Citation CJ4 (N51
29 timpdx : CEO of Morely construction and son reported dead by LA Times. I do not see mention of a pilot or whether him or his sons are licensed pilots.
30 rfields5421 : The area between the runway and the parellel taxiways is paved at SMO. I don't now which hanger the plane hit - but for most of the airport - there i
31 Continental : I was at my friend's house in Santa Monica yesterday which is about 5 blocks from SMO and I didn't notice a thing. I couldn't believe the news when I
32 Aesma : Wealthy people use companies (often offshore ones) for all their assets, not just their planes. Now, if you can afford a business jet, why wouldn't yo
33 gegarrenton : Mark Benjamin, and he was a pilot. I just found out he was a friend and client of my uncle, who was just on the plane with them last week, and was pl
34 Web500sjc : When one lands at SMO, you pull off the runway between some of the runway lights. and taxi off to the taxiway.
35 Post contains links TaxPilot : Four bodies were found inside the burned wreckage of a private jet that crashed into a hangar at Santa Monica Airport while landing during the weekend
36 koruman : Because it doesn't belong to you, it belongs to the company. It is theft, just as it would be theft for the girl on checkout at the supermarket to ta
37 rfields5421 : Corporate bizjet usage by executives of a company in the US is subject to some very strict rules, and strong, frequent audits. If this was a personal
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