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Crash At SMO, Santa Monica, Citation Burning  
User currently offlinetimpdx From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 528 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 18095 times:

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2013/...r-landing-at-santa-monica-airport/

I perhaps saw this twin (if jet) on final while on an evening hike at Runyon Canyon just a hour or so ago. Hope that this was survivable.

[Edited 2013-09-29 19:40:08]

[Edited 2013-09-29 19:40:42]

37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinetimpdx From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 528 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (9 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 18113 times:

Now reported as Citation. I probably did see this on approach, I tend to look up a lot during my workout hikes there. The pattern for SMO goes over the area. Lots of smoke and fire reported.  

[Edited 2013-09-29 19:41:32]

User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4645 posts, RR: 11
Reply 2, posted (9 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 17932 times:

While the first concern is for the safety of those involved, this is not something that SMO needs given they are under increasing pressure to close from the NIMBY's... pardon the poor choice of words but this will certainly fuel their fire.


Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24785 posts, RR: 46
Reply 3, posted (9 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 17891 times:

Yes, I saw the large plume's of smoke afterwards.

Unfortunately another reason why jets and SMO don't play well. Runway is quite short (4,900ft) and community ends up suffering an annual crash or two sadly.


Plane involved was N194SJ

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N...J/history/20130929/2300Z/KSUN/KSMO

=



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4645 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (9 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 17796 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
Runway is quite short (4,900ft) and community ends up suffering an annual crash or two sadly.

4,900 ft is more than enough for any mid sized business jet and most manufacturers will attest to their ability to operate in and out of airports with runways that are in the sub 4,000 ft category.



Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24785 posts, RR: 46
Reply 5, posted (9 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 17804 times:

Twitter image




Btw - wonder who might be onboard. Seems perfectly times for someone with a few dollars to be returning from a weekend out of town.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinetimpdx From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 528 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (9 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 17681 times:

I hike Runyon (5 yrs now) In th e evening and watch these jets come into Santa Monica and always wonder who is aboard...from SunValley...Park City...Aspen...

on this one, nothing sounded unusual as it passed overhead. I watched another as I finished my hike make a U turn...now I know why. Santa Monica was out of view by then. Took pics of downtown LA. Incredibly clear day, in fact just got back from PDX n B6 and really enjoyed my view as we came in over the Sierras into LGB. It was seriously clear. Wonder what went wrong on landing.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24785 posts, RR: 46
Reply 7, posted (9 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 17660 times:

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 4):
4,900 ft is more than enough for any mid sized business jet and most manufacturers will attest to their ability to operate in and out of airports with runways that are in the sub 4,000 ft category.

Take a look at SMO...

Runway has a slope, over 60ft elevation decline. There is a hump, and downhill landing rollout westward.

Even FAA has questioned wisdom of fast jets and in 2007'ish recommended the ban on planes with C & D approach categories at SMO but was challenged in court.

Also the airport does not have conforming standard FAA runway safety areas due lack of space.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently onlinewjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5103 posts, RR: 18
Reply 8, posted (9 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 17551 times:

No survivors, according to the CBS station in LA.

User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21488 posts, RR: 56
Reply 9, posted (9 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 17450 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
Unfortunately another reason why jets and SMO don't play well. Runway is quite short (4,900ft)

4,900 feet is about twice what that jet needs to land - I've landed a similar jet (CJ3, this was a CJ2) at SMO and had no issues at all. I've landed a midsize jet at SMO and didn't even have to use the full runway.

Reports are that a tire burst - that's something that could take you off the runway no matter how long it is (especially in a plane that has only one tire per landing gear). Can't pin that on the airport.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineFlyHossD From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 838 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (9 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 17411 times:

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 2):
While the first concern is for the safety of those involved, this is not something that SMO needs given they are under increasing pressure to close from the NIMBY's... pardon the poor choice of words but this will certainly fuel their fire.

First, rest in peace to the those so tragically lost.

Second, your comment about NIMBYs is spot on, but why are so many in aviation afraid to counter the NIMBYs? That is, does anyone ever go to community meetings (city council, etc.) and ask the NIMBYs if they want a highway closed after a fatal accident? The anti-aiport or anti-aviation NIMBYs always seem to be on the offensive; should that go unchallenged?



My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3178 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (9 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 17244 times:

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 4):

4,900 ft is more than enough for any mid sized business jet and most manufacturers will attest to their ability to operate in and out of airports with runways that are in the sub 4,000 ft category.

This wasn't even a mid size biz jet, this was a CJ2, which is on the small side. They could operate on about a 3500 ft runway

Quoting timpdx (Reply 6):
on this one, nothing sounded unusual as it passed overhead.

Citation CJ1-4 aircraft have an unusual sound on approach. I hear a lot of them coming into MCO, since they have a Citation facility at MCO. They have a strange whine to them.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 7):
Even FAA has questioned wisdom of fast jets and in 2007'ish recommended the ban on planes with C & D approach categories at SMO but was challenged in court.

Citations (unless it is the Citation X) aren't exactly known as being "fast" jets

Quoting Mir (Reply 9):
Reports are that a tire burst - that's something that could take you off the runway no matter how long it is (especially in a plane that has only one tire per landing gear). Can't pin that on the airport.

Actually you can - FOD or a hole in the runway that should have been rectified that caused the tire to burst.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21488 posts, RR: 56
Reply 12, posted (9 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 17184 times:

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 11):
Actually you can - FOD or a hole in the runway that should have been rectified that caused the tire to burst.

Source for where that happened here?

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinetimpdx From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 528 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (9 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 17069 times:

No cut out or strange out of the ordinary sounds, like "problem" sounds. Now that you said that about the whine of the engines, for sure I noted this plane on approach. I know exactly where I was when it was overhead on final. Meh.

User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7167 posts, RR: 17
Reply 14, posted (9 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 16407 times:

Airplane in better days:
http://www.airport-data.com/aircraft/photo/000336429.html

ASN report:

http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=161083

According to this site, the airframe was owned by Ginnaire Rental Inc. Someone most likely chartered it:

http://www.airframes.org/reg/n194sj

Registered to this company, however:
http://companies.findthecompany.com/...22501907/Crex-Mml-Llc-in-Malibu-CA

This address appears to be a private home in Malibu. Most likely a wealthy businessman owned it.



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlineIndianicWorld From Australia, joined Jun 2001, 2901 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (9 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 16346 times:

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/09/29/us...a-plane-crash/index.html?hpt=us_c1

Hit a hanger and the roof collapsed. Very sad.

RIP to those onboard.


User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3178 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (9 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 16219 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 14):
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 14):
Airplane in better days:
http://www.airport-data.com/aircraft/photo/000336429.html

ASN report:

Wow, you found one of my pictures. I am Florida Metal on airport-data.


The ABC news agency in LA just asked me for this shot

http://www.airport-data.com/aircraft/photo/336426.html


User currently offlinefsnuffer From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 249 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (9 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 14645 times:

Claiming to know the pilot. No reason to believe she is not be factual. FYI

https://www.facebook.com/judy.austin.9


User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4645 posts, RR: 11
Reply 18, posted (9 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 13923 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 7):
Even FAA has questioned wisdom of fast jets and in 2007'ish recommended the ban on planes with C & D approach categories at SMO but was challenged in court.
Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 11):
This wasn't even a mid size biz jet, this was a CJ2, which is on the small side. They could operate on about a 3500 ft runway

C&D Aircraft require a 1,000 ft safety area on both ends (assuming the airport has over 500 annual operations on that category of aircraft)

Aircraft like the Citation (Exception being the sovereign and X models) (B) require only a 300-600 ft safety area.



Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7167 posts, RR: 17
Reply 19, posted (9 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 13104 times:

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 16):
Wow, you found one of my pictures. I am Florida Metal on airport-data.

It was a nice shot! and that's some coincidence.

Lookng at those databases, none except for the ASN have been updated.



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 9763 posts, RR: 27
Reply 20, posted (9 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 12570 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 18):
Aircraft like the Citation (Exception being the sovereign and X models) (B) require only a 300-600 ft safety area.

SMO doesn't even have that. There are roads and houses within a few hundred feet on both ends. And on the east end, the road/houses are down a small hill from the runway (not sure about the west end).

Anyway. Although most traffic is prop, I see business jets operating from TOA as well (I work across the street from it). On takeoff, they are off the ground probably halfway down the 5000' runway. I doubt it's particularly dangerous.



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 2966 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (9 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 11320 times:

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 4):
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
Runway is quite short (4,900ft) and community ends up suffering an annual crash or two sadly.

4,900 ft is more than enough for any mid sized business jet and most manufacturers will attest to their ability to operate in and out of airports with runways that are in the sub 4,000 ft category.

737-800s land just fine on shorter runways in Brazil and EYW.


User currently offlinesuseJ772 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 814 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (9 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 10347 times:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 21):
737-800s land just fine on shorter runways in Brazil and EYW.

I would say EYW is "just fine" - my friends at DL say it is a captain's only approach and it is quite tricky - especially in anything but optimal weather. But it is still safe.



Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
User currently offlinemodesto2 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2786 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (9 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 10197 times:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 21):
737-800s land just fine on shorter runways in Brazil and EYW.

Point of clarification - DL only operates the 737-700 into EYW; the -800 wouldn't be able to profitably operate the route because of substantial weight restrictions.


User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 2966 posts, RR: 7
Reply 24, posted (9 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 10154 times:

Quoting modesto2 (Reply 23):
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 21):
737-800s land just fine on shorter runways in Brazil and EYW.

Point of clarification - DL only operates the 737-700 into EYW; the -800 wouldn't be able to profitably operate the route because of substantial weight restrictions.

GOL uses the -800s in shorter runways in Brazil.


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 959 posts, RR: 51
Reply 25, posted (9 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 10577 times:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 21):
737-800s land just fine on shorter runways in Brazil and EYW.
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 24):
GOL uses the -800s in shorter runways in Brazil.

It's not really relevant what a 737-800 with SP package can do when we're talking about business jet crash, which may or may not have even been caused by a performance issue.


User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4645 posts, RR: 11
Reply 26, posted (9 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 10313 times:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 21):
737-800s land just fine on shorter runways in Brazil and EYW.

Runway performance is not directly correlated to aircraft size.

One key issue looming out there is the airport design criteria established by the FAA and used in designing of airpotr facilities.

FAA establishes design criteria based on the most demanding aircraft using the airport 500 times per year. Pilots however, have zero knowledge into the design criteria used for the runway on which they are landing.

Pilots are are often in command of aircraft CAPABLE of landing at these airports with shorter runways, however often times these runways only have the safety areas designed for smaller aircraft.

Even though this aircraft went off the side, its only going to take a few more cases of a jet going off the end of a small airport before the FAA steps in and changes things.



Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3178 posts, RR: 4
Reply 27, posted (9 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 9776 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 19):
It was a nice shot! and that's some coincidence.

Lookng at those databases, none except for the ASN have been updated

Thanks, yeah I got it landing at Sun N Fun show a few years back. Not the first time a plane has crashed and the news agencies found one of my Sun N Fun shots and used it most of the time with permission. One of the more famous ones was that twin Cessna that was flying from Louisiana to Sarasota and was doing the strange circles over the Gulf before it went down.


On a more technical note, I am wondering if there were other factors besides the blown tire, which would have made it veer off the runway. I work airfield ops at a GA airport and I have never seen a plane lose that much control after a blown tire. Granted most of the planes I seen this happen with were Cessna 172s, Beech Dutchess etc. I question whether or not there was also a good crosswind and the pilot leaned away from the wind as it touched down, which was the cause of a lot of blown tires at my airport. With a plane landing at a higher rate of speed then it might cause it to veer off the runway like that.


User currently offlineHighflier92660 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 672 posts, RR: 0
Reply 28, posted (9 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 8525 times:

The straight wing Cessna Citation CJ series aircraft are unbelievably docile with amazingly short balanced field lengths. There is a Citation CJ4 (N515TT) that regularly flies into Fullerton airport in Orange County with a runway 3,121 feet long. Even more spectacularly, it also flies out of Santa Ynez airport north of Santa Barbara with a runway length of 2,812 feet !

There was probably something more amiss than a blown main gear tire for this CJ2 to veer-off the SMO runway into the hanger.


User currently offlinetimpdx From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 528 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (9 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 8124 times:

CEO of Morely construction and son reported dead by LA Times. I do not see mention of a pilot or whether him or his sons are licensed pilots.

User currently onlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7551 posts, RR: 32
Reply 30, posted (9 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 7776 times:

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 27):
I work airfield ops at a GA airport and I have never seen a plane lose that much control after a blown tire.

The area between the runway and the parellel taxiways is paved at SMO. I don't now which hanger the plane hit - but for most of the airport - there is nothing to slow the plane down except regular smooth asphalt.

Some hangers are just 225 ft from the runway edge lines.


User currently onlineContinental From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5506 posts, RR: 18
Reply 31, posted (9 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4017 times:

I was at my friend's house in Santa Monica yesterday which is about 5 blocks from SMO and I didn't notice a thing. I couldn't believe the news when I heard it last night.

User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6511 posts, RR: 9
Reply 32, posted (9 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3006 times:

Wealthy people use companies (often offshore ones) for all their assets, not just their planes. Now, if you can afford a business jet, why wouldn't you use it for leisure too ?


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinegegarrenton From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 33, posted (9 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3001 times:

Quoting timpdx (Reply 29):
CEO of Morely construction and son reported dead by LA Times. I do not see mention of a pilot or whether him or his sons are licensed pilots.

Mark Benjamin, and he was a pilot. I just found out he was a friend and client of my uncle, who was just on the plane with them last week, and was planning on seeing them next week as well.


User currently offlineWeb500sjc From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 726 posts, RR: 0
Reply 34, posted (9 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2832 times:

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 30):
The area between the runway and the parellel taxiways is paved at SMO. I don't now which hanger the plane hit - but for most of the airport - there is nothing to slow the plane down except regular smooth asphalt.

Some hangers are just 225 ft from the runway edge lines.

When one lands at SMO, you pull off the runway between some of the runway lights. and taxi off to the taxiway.



Boiler Up!
User currently offlineTaxPilot From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 97 posts, RR: 1
Reply 35, posted (9 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 2431 times:

Four bodies were found inside the burned wreckage of a private jet that crashed into a hangar at Santa Monica Airport while landing during the weekend, a coroner’s official said Tuesday. RIP

http://smdp.com/4-bodies-inside-jet-that-crashed-in-s-calif/127574


User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 36, posted (9 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2117 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 32):

Wealthy people use companies (often offshore ones) for all their assets, not just their planes. Now, if you can afford a business jet, why wouldn't you use it for leisure too?

Because it doesn't belong to you, it belongs to the company. It is theft, just as it would be theft for the girl on checkout at the supermarket to take the delivery truck and drive it down for a vacation in Florida, putting the gas on the company account.

Businesses can legitimately own or charter jets to conduct their business. As soon as they turn up at a leisure airport that should be the business of the IRS and the country's corporate regulators.

If the company is being taxed on the basis of mixed business and personal use, and if the individuals in question are reimbursing the company and the tax department for that personal use, there's no problem.


User currently onlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7551 posts, RR: 32
Reply 37, posted (9 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1719 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 36):
As soon as they turn up at a leisure airport that should be the business of the IRS and the country's corporate regulators.

Corporate bizjet usage by executives of a company in the US is subject to some very strict rules, and strong, frequent audits.

If this was a personal trip - I am sure the company would include the trip 'value' in the 1099 for the CEO at the end of the year. The 'value' of corporate bizjet trips for company employees is equal to either the first class air-fare for the trip, or a company set hourly operation rate for the jet. In either case, it is very likely quite a bit less than the company costs for the trip.

The company I used to work for would fly the CEO and his family to his Palm Beach home every December a couple days before Christmas, then fly the crew home commercially. The jet remained in Florida - because the CEO must have transportation available, and a flight crew was on standby to fly down commercially at a moments notice - or if necessary be ferried down by another corporation jet.

His trips to Palm Beach were from approx Dec 20 to Jan 5 every year.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 32):
Wealthy people use companies (often offshore ones) for all their assets, not just their planes. Now, if you can afford a business jet, why wouldn't you use it for leisure too ?

In the US, being a 'named officer' of a company with corporate jet dispatch rights ensures extra IRS scrutiny of the person's tax returns.

The usual method of using a bizjet for all travel is for the company board of directors to vote that the executive it too important to the success of the company to allow the executive to fly commercial. Usually only the CEO gets such designation, sometimes the CFO or COO.

But that also ensures that the IRS will make sure that personal trips are included in the executive's total taxable compensation.

The CEO I mentioned above has never taken a yearly bonus in the 10 years I worked for the company and the four years since. The bonuses awarded to him add up to about $26 million. He 'deferres' the bonus to be paid at his choice later. Since the bonuses are always and only company stock - the last annual report put the current value of that stock as about $155 million. (Yesterday's stock price is about 10% higher).

Now, he has never paid income taxes on the $26 million in bonuses since he does not 'own' the stock. He will pay income taxes when he takes ownership of the stock - for $26 million in income.

And he will pay income tax at the long term capital gains rate (20%) if he sells any of the stock.

However, if he does not sell the stock - the 2.314 million shares produces about $2,879,360 in dividend income per year.

If he has taken the stock and sold it before 2012 ended his tax rate on the capital gains would be 15%. Also, the dividend income is not longer taxed at 15%, but is taxed at the current individual tax rate - which will be 39.6%.


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