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Is BHX A Hub For FlyBe?  
User currently offlinemozart From Luxembourg, joined Aug 2003, 2152 posts, RR: 13
Posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2864 times:

I traveled through BHX recently and noticed that all gates at the "Europier" (stands 1-16) were used by FlyBe planes.

Is BHX a hub for them? Interesting, I thought their main operations were out of Southampton and to a lesser degree at Manchester.

Or are there any other airlines using that Europier at Birmingham, for instance I didn't see Air France and KLM there, despite them being close partners (maybe there was no AF or KL flight operating at that time of day).

16 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently onlineMesaFlyGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 2486 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2803 times:
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As per wikipedia,

"In the UK, Flybe's largest base is Southampton Airport and it has other large bases at Belfast, Birmingham, and Manchester airports, with a total of 14 crew and aircraft bases across the United Kingdom, the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man."

So technically not a hub, but definitely a focus city.



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User currently offlineMCO2BRS From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2007, 537 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2691 times:

Quoting mozart (Thread starter):
Or are there any other airlines using that Europier at Birmingham, for instance I didn't see Air France and KLM there, despite them being close partners (maybe there was no AF or KL flight operating at that time of day).

Ryanair use gates 1, 2, 3 & 15. I have also seen (only once or twice) BMI Regional using gate 3, but not sure why this was, as they usually use 68 (I think this is the correct number)

Cheers,

MCO 2 BRS


User currently offlinemozart From Luxembourg, joined Aug 2003, 2152 posts, RR: 13
Reply 3, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2591 times:

But why don't Air France and KLM use the same pier/gates like FlyBe? After all Flybe has taken over many of the UK-France/NL flights from AFKL. So is this a FlyBe-operated-by-FlyBe-only and not-our-partners hub?

User currently offlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2813 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2490 times:
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Actually Birmingham IS a sort of hub for Flybe.

They do offer through fares and co-ordinated schedules through Birmingham from/to Belfast/Edinburgh/Glasgow and Aberdeen and onto their handful of European major cities notably Milan/Hanover/Paris/Dusseldorf and to lesser points such as Jersey and Waterford.

Infact they operate an asymmetric hubbing strategy routing and combining routings over Manchester in one way to give several daily timings from the Scottish/Irish points.

Flybe effectively operate a three point hub system around Manchester/Birmingham and Southampton and goes something like this

Southampton connects the Scottish points plus Manchester (but not Birmingham !) with Paris South (Orly) the french regions and selected Mediterranean hotspots (Against the LCCs not very competitively I might add !)

Birmingham as described above

Manchester has a developed domestic transfer operation with mini waves throughout the day allowing connections such as Norwich/Inverness, Inverness/Jersey, Aberdeen/Exeter, Belfast/Southampton etc... plus those asymmetric European major city connections
(But again no direct connection to/from Birmingham !)

Add just to add variety and even money loosing potential they also operate a Glasgow/Cardiff/Paris daily service that allows connections in Cardiff to/from Belfast and Edinburgh and connections from those domestic points to and from Jersey !

Then you have their homebase in Exeter (Not a hub !) providing a mix of Mediterranean domestic and transfer opportunities via Manchester and AF/KL partners in Amsterdam and Paris

Frankly this mishmash is a serious flaw and the asymmetric Manchester/Birmingham dual operation goes way back to BEA !
Looking at it as a purely commercial perspective one would surely drop one of the central English cities and focus just one to strengthen the hub strategy effectively.

The question is which to can ?


User currently offlinemozart From Luxembourg, joined Aug 2003, 2152 posts, RR: 13
Reply 5, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2339 times:

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 4):
Actually Birmingham IS a sort of hub for Flybe.

Thanks, that is VERY interesting.

Is that "interesting" hub strategy one of the reasons for their financial difficulties?


User currently offlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2813 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2241 times:
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Quoting mozart (Reply 5):
Is that "interesting" hub strategy one of the reasons for their financial difficulties?

Yes and that of BA Connect , British Regional/BA Regional , British airways Manchester /Birmingham right back to BEA in the UK regions.

All have employed this very costly and money loosing split hub/transfer strategy over Manchester and Birmingham when they should have chosen just one focal point.

Manchester or Birmingham but not both !

Historically there has been a political element to this however in the 21st Century EU openskys combined with LCC carriers Easyjet/Ryanair/Jet2 and others Wizz/Norwegian and Monarch plus the legacies and their alliance partners this business model seems redundant today.

I believe they need a major re-think - they are leaving the London domestic routes (another loss making exercise !)
after the northern winter.

I believe they should also close one of the central English operations- I think I would choose to close Manchester as an international centre - with the exception of Hanover and Nantes they have competition using larger capacity jets and higher frequencies.

Develop Birmingham as proper Hub and strengthen the European network here as they have far fewer competitors right now.


User currently offlinefactsonly From Montserrat, joined Aug 2012, 715 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2193 times:

Quoting mozart (Reply 3):
But why don't Air France and KLM use the same pier/gates like FlyBe? After all Flybe has taken over many of the UK-France/NL flights from AFKL.

This is not correct.

YES, FlyBe and AF have a cooperation which includes codesharing between the UK and the CDG hub in particular with FlyBe operating on behalf of AF, but please note that FlyBe flies at its own risk to French regions, and FlyBe does NOT fly on behalf of KL.

FlyBe flies to AMS in competition with KL on the following routes:

- BHX-AMS
- EXE-AMS
- EMA-AMS

KL does codeshare on FlyBe however on:

- INV-AMS
- SOU-AMS

In addition EY codeshares on:

- SOU-AMS
- EMA-AMS

but not on BHX-AMS as EY codeshares with KL on this route, and EY does not cooperate on INV-AMS.

So a somewhat complex relationship.


User currently offlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2813 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2148 times:
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Quoting factsonly (Reply 7):
EY does not cooperate on INV-AMS.

Throwing in the Etihad codeshares just adds confusion !

Inverness has an EY code via Manchester - in fact just Newquay and Norwich domestically are the only two that don't

As an aside Aer Arran flights into Manchester also carry EY codes !

True the French regional operation are at Flybe risk however all do carry AF codes as well as do core UK domestic flights


User currently offlineHumberside From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 4914 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1911 times:

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 6):
I believe they should also close one of the central English operations- I think I would choose to close Manchester as an international centre - with the exception of Hanover and Nantes they have competition using larger capacity jets and higher frequencies.

Develop Birmingham as proper Hub and strengthen the European network here as they have far fewer competitors right now.

Close an operation? That seems a bit drastic. Surely both BHX and MAN have good levels of local traffic on some routes? I can see the case for emphasising one over the other, but I don't see why an O&D based operation at the non-hub couldn't be maintained

As for which airport should be focused on, while BHX has far less competition, MAN does have a couple of advantages. Firstly it is in a better location to support multiple domestic destinations - EXT, SOU, NQY, NWI are too close to BHX IMO to work, even as hub feeders. Secondly MAN has far better opportunities to feed other airlines - such as the recent TCX deal and their current EY partnership. How valuable such deals are for Flybe I don't know, but there is less potential, for now at least, to partner with others at BHX

Quoting mozart (Reply 3):
After all Flybe has taken over many of the UK-France/NL flights from AFKL.
Quoting factsonly (Reply 7):
YES, FlyBe and AF have a cooperation which includes codesharing between the UK and the CDG hub in particular with FlyBe operating on behalf of AF,

IIRC the only route BE took over is SOU-ORY. Not sure of the specifics of the AF/BE deal, but all BE flying is 'own brand' (obviously with AF codeshare)



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User currently offlinestarrymarkb From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2011, 128 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1850 times:

Quoting factsonly (Reply 7):

FlyBe flies to AMS in competition with KL on the following routes:

- BHX-AMS
- EXE-AMS
- EMA-AMS

EXT-AMS is not yet a KLM route, while EXT appears on KLM's site as a destination, KL will send you via Paris on the AF codeshare rather then the direct (and expensive compared with KL's routes) BE flight


User currently offlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2813 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1850 times:
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Quoting Humberside (Reply 9):
Close an operation? That seems a bit drastic. Surely both BHX and MAN have good levels of local traffic on some routes? I can see the case for emphasising one over the other, but I don't see why an O&D based operation at the non-hub couldn't be maintained

As you know i am a Exiled Mancunian !

I had to think it over for sometime and your point re the domestic mini hub held my attention even whilst writing and determining which i would choose .

Fact is I really don't think the classic MAN/BHX co hubbing provides a profitable basis for regional services now and never has !

Yes i know that they have a deal with TCX for feed over Manchester starting shortly, however how much transfer traffic it will generate has to be seen.

As for Southampton they took over the Orly service from AF Regional and the Amsterdam route they acquired via Suckling if i remember correctly and that operated also in partnership with KLM .

The Inverness route codeshare has something to do with leisure traffic from the Far East into Highlands !


User currently offlinefactsonly From Montserrat, joined Aug 2012, 715 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1760 times:

Quoting starrymarkb (Reply 10):
EXT-AMS is not yet a KLM route, while EXT appears on KLM's site as a destination, KL will send you via Paris on the AF codeshare rather then the direct (and expensive compared with KL's routes) BE flight

The reason KL does not codeshare on some FlyBe routes is that:

KL operates BRS-AMS, which is in competition with FlyBe's EXT-AMS, reason for KL not to codeshare.
KL operates BHX-AMS, which is in competition with FlyBe's BHX-AMS and EMA-AMS, reason for KL not to codeshare.

KL benefits from SOU-AMS, and apparently from INV-AMS, though one could argue this route competes with ABZ-AMS.


User currently offlinemozart From Luxembourg, joined Aug 2003, 2152 posts, RR: 13
Reply 13, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1673 times:

Interesting, thanks a lot for all of these responses. Makes me realise again what a valuable place a.net can be!

So other than Ryanair and FlyBe no other airline uses the "Europier" at BHX? No Aer Arann, no Aer Lingus? Any partners of FlyBe? What about Eastern?


User currently offlineMCO2BRS From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2007, 537 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (6 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 1527 times:

Quoting mozart (Reply 13):

You are correct about Eastern, I forgot about them, they too use the former Eurohub

Cheers,

MCO 2 BRS


User currently offlinefactsonly From Montserrat, joined Aug 2012, 715 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1235 times:

Quoting factsonly (Reply 7):
In addition EY codeshares on:

- SOU-AMS
- EMA-AMS

but not on BHX-AMS as EY codeshares with KL on this route

I must correct my own post as since October 1st, 2013 EY codeshares on BHX-AMS on both KL and BE.


- dep. BHX 17.30 - AMS arr. 19:45 EY 7368 Etihad Airways operated by KL
- dep. BHX 17.35 - AMS arr. 19:55 EY 7875 Etihad Airways operated by BE


User currently offlineJobsaGoodun From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 95 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 928 times:

Quoting factsonly (Reply 12):

I think that the reason KL don't code share with BE on all their AMS services is due to their labour agreements with their unions which restrict them to only 2 routes per partner airline. At least, this was what I understood..?

Happy to stand corrected  


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