Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 1)  
User currently offlineiowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4401 posts, RR: 6
Posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 63476 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Due to length part three was archived and part four started.

Previous thread: Any Cseries Updates? Part 3 (by iowaman Aug 21 2013 in Civil Aviation)


Next flights: WN DSM-LAS-PHX, US PHX-SJD. Return: US SJD-PHX, WN PHX-MDW-DSM
254 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11674 posts, RR: 33
Reply 1, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 63062 times:

A statement from Bombardier:

Quote:
FTV1 Reaches New Heights

CSeries FTV1 took to the skies yet again, just two days after its follow-up test flight on Oct. 1. Today’s four-hour flight took FTV1 to new heights as the flight crew expanded the performance envelope to reach an altitude of just over 7,620 metres (25,000 feet), at speeds of Mach 0.60 (740 km/h) near Mirabel, Québec.

“The test flight today was helpful in demonstrating the performance of the aircraft at higher altitudes and going forward, we will be combining our flight tests with activities on the ground as we further validate systems data at our CIASTA (CSeries Integrated Aircraft Systems Test Area) where we expect to compare tests and ready the systems for further in-flight analysis,” said Rob Dewar, Vice President and General Manager, CSeries Program.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7560 posts, RR: 18
Reply 2, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 63002 times:

Quoting kaneporta1 (Reply 1):
Shouldn't we change the title to something along the lines of :"CSeries flight testing and production thread"?

Third in agreement here. Remove the "Any" and the question mark and we have a nice thread series 


Either way: So how many are out of the line? We have FTV1 and 2 out and ready, FTV1 flew, FTV is getting ready, and what about production models?



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11674 posts, RR: 33
Reply 3, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 62977 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 4):
So how many are out of the line?

FTV3, 4 and 5 should all roll out this year. Also the first production model is in final assembly.

[Edited 2013-10-04 00:21:09]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinekmot From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 71 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (11 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 62490 times:

Will we see any additional u.s. sales?

[Edited 2013-10-04 07:08:09]

User currently offlinerikkus67 From Canada, joined Jun 2000, 1646 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (11 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 61326 times:

Quoting kmot (Reply 4):
Will we see any additional u.s. sales?

Hopefully, as favourable results start being confirmed, more interest in the aircraft is inevitable. To see the sales results the original CRJ-100/200 had is possibly unrealistic. To see a solid and steady increase in sales, I feel, is more realistic.



AC.WA.CP.DL.RW.CO.WG.WJ.WN.KI.FL.SK.ACL.UA.US.F9
User currently offlinePaolo92 From Italy, joined Oct 2007, 261 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 59564 times:

Nordic Aviation Capital, a Scandinavian aircraft lessor already Bombardier's customer with the Q-Series and CRJ aircraft, is eyeing a CSeries order, according to Flightglobal.
I remember, but I can't find the article atm, that when NAC ordered 12 CRJ1000 last year (for Garuda), the CEO, interviewed about the CSeries said that he saw it as a matter of when, not if, NAC will order the CSeries (which is what he is saying again today).

Nordic Aviation Capital eyes CSeries



Each evening, stars come out their daylight hiding places... But one of those, will be my wingtip, passing over...
User currently offlineczbbflier From Canada, joined Jul 2006, 973 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 58907 times:

Just out of curiosity... has there been more than 3 flights?

How impatient am I to say that at the rate they're going, it seems like this project isn't going to see any EIS until about 2073. (But they're going to have several Academy Awards for their videos in the meantime....)


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11674 posts, RR: 33
Reply 8, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 58734 times:

Quoting czbbflier (Reply 7):
has there been more than 3 flights?

Not yet. I have no idea why it takes so much time.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2804 posts, RR: 59
Reply 9, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 58658 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 8):
I have no idea why it takes so much time.

I think there is a major difference in the flight test equipment set-up and it's capabilities between A, B and BBD. A and B have the capability to test in real time if they are approaching flutter boundaries, a very very dangerous condition that can set on very sudden if you've got something wrong an which can destroy the aircraft. I suspect BBD has a procedure and setup which is much more conservative here and therefore this early part of clearing the flight envelope will take more time, it will be more stretch the envelope, go back a check for the next stretch, fly it and so on. A clearly have a very strong telemetry link where the checking is done in real time at the flight test center, B has more capabilities on-board instead.

With only one flight engineer on board (B has more then 10! at certain cases) and a rather rudimentary flight test center compared to A I think BBD is more classical style here. Once BBD is past this phase things will progress at a more normal pace me thinks



Non French in France
User currently offlineMANYUL From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2013, 53 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (11 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 58400 times:

First noise test carried out on 2nd flight fly-by.

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Buffer

Quoting ferpe (Reply 9):
I suspect BBD has a procedure and setup which is much more conservative

I'd have to agree, the time between flight 1 and 2 was spent meticulously going through all the data and creating software upgrades. They won't be rushed, that's for sure.


User currently offlinegolfradio From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 766 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (11 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 58277 times:

I am not sure about YMX but here in southern ontario the weather has been wet for the past few days. Not sure how much of a factor weather is at this early stage of testing. Do they still need VMC weather or can they start testing in IMC?

User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2804 posts, RR: 59
Reply 12, posted (11 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 58242 times:

Quoting golfradio (Reply 11):
Do they still need VMC weather or can they start testing in IMC?

I would say they need VMC and low winds, they are not very far in checking out their systems it seems. Good info.



Non French in France
User currently offlineYYZYYT From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 955 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (11 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 57598 times:

Quoting MANYUL (Reply 10):
First noise test carried out on 2nd flight fly-by.



Does anyone have any idea when the results will be released? I presume that there will be many further such tests, but was hpping for an early glimpse (it came to mind as I was reading about the ongoing debate re the Porter / YTZ runway extension).

Thanks


User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2804 posts, RR: 59
Reply 14, posted (11 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 57146 times:

Lets hope for some action today, the weather looks OK. If they don't fly soon they are working on detected problems.


Non French in France
User currently offlinesirtoby From Germany, joined Nov 2007, 376 posts, RR: 22
Reply 15, posted (11 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 56997 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 14):
Lets hope for some action today, the weather looks OK. If they don't fly soon they are working on detected problems.

Don't expect any flight in the next few days as currently they are doing ground vibrations tests.


User currently offlineAviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 619 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (11 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 56892 times:

Thanks
I don't think it's a good news...
Is it ?


User currently offlinesirtoby From Germany, joined Nov 2007, 376 posts, RR: 22
Reply 17, posted (11 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 56801 times:

Neither nor...it was planned as far as I know.

User currently offlineAviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 619 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (11 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 56737 times:

Thanks
So it's a planned slow start for the flight tst campaign


User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2804 posts, RR: 59
Reply 19, posted (11 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 56568 times:

Quoting sirtoby (Reply 15):
as currently they are doing ground vibrations tests

In my book this is done as part of preparing or understanding flutter tests. Any more info why the vibration tests they did before first flight did not suffice?



Non French in France
User currently offlinesirtoby From Germany, joined Nov 2007, 376 posts, RR: 22
Reply 20, posted (11 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 56066 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 19):
Any more info why the vibration tests they did before first flight did not suffice?

No, sorry!


User currently offlinePW100 From Netherlands, joined Jan 2002, 2485 posts, RR: 11
Reply 21, posted (11 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 55691 times:

Hmm, I'm wondering, the slow flight test progress may suggest to me that they still have significant software challenges in the FWB department. Vibration tests, flutter, low speed, medium altitude, few configuration changes in the first flights all seem to point into defining (not even yet fine-tuning) FBW algorithms and logic patterns.

Hope they can get things going, but even getting other FTV's in the air soon, they don't seem to getting any meaningful flight hours per frame at the moment.
Looks more like a Norwegian 787 operation    than the Shinkansen-like A350 flight test operation . . .

PW100



Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13120 posts, RR: 100
Reply 22, posted (11 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 55613 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Paolo92 (Reply 6):
Nordic Aviation Capital, a Scandinavian aircraft lessor already Bombardier's customer with the Q-Series and CRJ aircraft, is eyeing a CSeries order, according to Flightglobal.

The question is will Bombardier staff up sufficiently to get going?

I used to work in a system software lab. After almost every flight test the test team wants a software rebuild (I did when I was in flight test). But a new software build must pass in the lab before installation in the aircraft. I suspect Bombardier didn't pay for redundant test benches to debug software before it goes on a main bench. Boeing and Airbus will have 4+ main benches in the system center lab. Only one will be hooked up to the 'iron bird where hydraulics and full control boxes will be actuated (see if there is feedback from power draw to the control system). They will each also have 4 to 8 sub benches. Each bench is expensive for one needs real flight computers, real flight radios, and usually the sub-parts of the aircraft navigation system (e.g., GPS receiver, but not all benches will do simulated GPS transmission onto the actual GPS receivers). I suspect Bombardier needs more benches and is thus having to wait much longer for new software builds.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2804 posts, RR: 59
Reply 23, posted (11 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 54877 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 22):
I suspect Bombardier needs more benches and is thus having to wait much longer for new software builds.

Yes, the difference between the Airbus 350 flight tests and the Cseries is striking. Both said they need a year to do the test, then delivery. The Cseries is systems wise less complex then an A350 but not with much. I think it is time for some aviation Journalist to ask BBD why things are progressing so slowly.

On another tack, better slow then taking risks but then the timeplan will not hold. Not that it matter much, the Cseries will be a 30 years program, better be a few more months late then doing imprudent things   .



Non French in France
User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2630 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (11 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 54712 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 23):
Yes, the difference between the Airbus 350 flight tests and the Cseries is striking.

Agree, but as lightsaber mentions, due to their size, A&B can afford much larger test infrastructure. Also, the A350's "dispatch reliability" is surprising and definitely more than one would expect from your average flight test aircraft; they are flying it almost like an airline. The CSeries is indeed disappointing in this aspect, but the comparison to A350 could hurt even Boeing (or the A380 at the time).

One major difference in the test programs (assuming all is on time) is that BBD was planning to have all its test aircraft in the air much earlier than Airbus, who just now has MSN3 but MSN2&4 won't arrive until early 2014. If the remaining CSeries FTV's arrive quickly, they could (partially) compensate their lower dispatch rate per a/c with having more a/c flying sooner.


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11674 posts, RR: 33
Reply 25, posted (11 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 55160 times:

Airchive.com has an article about the CSeries factory, including some nice pictures of FTV4 and 5:

http://airchive.com/blog/2013/10/13/...ries-bombardier-building-new-jets/

[Edited 2013-10-14 06:40:59]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4737 posts, RR: 39
Reply 26, posted (11 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 54970 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 25):
Airchive.com has a article about the CSeries factory, including some nice pictures of FTV4 and 5:

Nice find. Interesting to read.  


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13120 posts, RR: 100
Reply 27, posted (11 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 55430 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting r2rho (Reply 24):
but the comparison to A350 could hurt even Boeing (or the A380 at the time).

I'm amazed at the A350 dispatch. I came out of flight test and that is impressive for this far from EIS.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 24):
If the remaining CSeries FTV's arrive quickly, they could (partially) compensate their lower dispatch rate per a/c with having more a/c flying sooner.

I speculate the problem with the C-series is software. Software takes more effort to debug, but once debugged the aircraft is more reliable than 'old school' aircraft. The A350 seems to have done an *amazing* job in the system center lab debugging their software/hardware. Did Airbus have up their Ironbird early? Considering how much better the A350 software is going than the A380, this isn't 'Airbus.' Did they hire a new manager of the system center lab?

I suspect Airbus did put in the extra benches... which will sit idle shortly (no avoiding that, but the flight hardware integrated into the benches is often available as spares for in service aircraft).


Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11674 posts, RR: 33
Reply 28, posted (11 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 55368 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 27):
Did Airbus have up their Ironbird early?

They have the iron bird working since 2010, although it was not connected to Aircraft Zero until February 2013.

This article is a must read:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...-avoid-787-s-ruffled-feathers.html



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4737 posts, RR: 39
Reply 29, posted (11 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 55235 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 28):
They have the iron bird working since 2010, although it was not connected to Aircraft Zero until February 2013.

So far the approach seems to be the right method and the smooth flight test program is their reward. Let's hope it stays this way.   .

For the C-series we can only hope for a similar successful flight test campaign.  Smile

[Edited 2013-10-14 12:14:46]

User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2804 posts, RR: 59
Reply 30, posted (11 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 55225 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 27):
The A350 seems to have done an *amazing* job in the system center lab debugging their software/hardware. Did Airbus have up their Ironbird early? Considering how much better the A350 software is going than the A380, this isn't 'Airbus.' Did they hire a new manager of the system center lab?

Airbus is on their (lets count: Concorde, 320, 340/330, 380, 400, 350 =) 6th FBW program and they went digital with the last bit (signal transmission to the actuators) on the 400. Also the whole computer and systems architecture is an update from the A380 and since then they have cleaned out all the old non conforming "I ex SNIAS/MBB do it my way" rubbish. That means all work with the same system architecture, tools and digital models since the 350. They have gobs of experience and a project management determined to "do it right" this time with 110% support from top management. There has been 0 tolerance for not following best practices and do it right the first time.

Guess BBD is not quite there yet even though we root for them and want them to show the big guys how you do it  .



Non French in France
User currently offlineAircellist From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 1719 posts, RR: 8
Reply 31, posted (11 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 54595 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 30):
Guess BBD is not quite there yet even though we root for them and want them to show the big guys how you do it  .

I'd guess right now they may well be more in the learning mode than in the "showing how to" mode


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11674 posts, RR: 33
Reply 32, posted (11 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 54279 times:

Look what I found:

http://gallery.mailchimp.com/3b20189cf917b81454c948301/images/90.2.jpg

http://gallery.mailchimp.com/3b20189cf917b81454c948301/images/10_14_2013_3_48_36_PM.png

http://www.stockhouse.com/companies/...d.b/bombardier-inc?postid=21816368



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinetortugamon From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 3446 posts, RR: 10
Reply 33, posted (11 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 54137 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 32):

Something tells me A & B are not very excited to see the CS300. I wonder what a third member of the family might look like :-0. Its not surprising to see the A319/73G are so similar.

tortugamon


User currently offlineNeutronStar73 From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 506 posts, RR: 0
Reply 34, posted (11 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 54061 times:

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 33):
Something tells me A & B are not very excited to see the CS300. I wonder what a third member of the family might look like :-0. Its not surprising to see the A319/73G are so similar.

I hope they are scared! I'm seriously hoping the C-Series really lives up to the promise, and give the duopoly a kick in the nose.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 32):


I can't believe this airplane is not getting more hype. It blows the 73G and A319 into the weeds on costs. But I guess they just have the installed user base. BBD will catch up.


User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4737 posts, RR: 39
Reply 35, posted (11 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 53885 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting NeutronStar73 (Reply 34):
I can't believe this airplane is not getting more hype. It blows the 73G and A319 into the weeds on costs. But I guess they just have the installed user base. BBD will catch up.

I can. A newcomer has to proof itself in the market. Remember Airbus only forecasting 450 sales at the start of the A320 program in the late '80's?

Besides that, the C-series might be very competitive with the smaller A319 and B737-7MAX, but if the airlines which BBD is targeting is already flying with Airbus and/or Boeing aircraft, it might be cheaper to add airplanes from A & B. BBD would require new infrastructure etc. On the other hand, Embraer has also succeeded to penetrate the market and the BBD offering seems very attractive on its own. So they might also pull it off, maybe at the expense of Embraer. Who knows.  .


User currently offlineLH707330 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 778 posts, RR: 0
Reply 36, posted (11 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 53797 times:

Quoting NeutronStar73 (Reply 34):
I can't believe this airplane is not getting more hype. It blows the 73G and A319 into the weeds on costs. But I guess they just have the installed user base. BBD will catch up.

I think it's two things:
1. Everyone's still waiting to see if they fumble inside the 20
2. Some carriers look like they might be upgauging, so there may be skepticism about the size of the market

I could see them punting on EIS, but in 2020 everyone will look at it as a solid plane.


User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4737 posts, RR: 39
Reply 37, posted (11 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 53776 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting LH707330 (Reply 36):
1. Everyone's still waiting to see if they fumble inside the 20

and:

Quoting LH707330 (Reply 36):
I could see them punting on EIS

You sure put it nicely with the reference to American Football. But those less familiar with that beautiful art of sports might have some question marks above their heads now. .

But those reasons you state can very well also be reasons why the C-series is not the large sales success yet it could become.


User currently offlineLH707330 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 778 posts, RR: 0
Reply 38, posted (11 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 53482 times:

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 37):
You sure put it nicely with the reference to American Football. But those less familiar with that beautiful art of sports might have some question marks above their heads now. .

Fair enough, let me internationalize:

1. People might expect them to miss the 1:1 with the keeper or
2. Only score in the second half

Either way, I think people are taking the "wait and see" approach. It's much easier to sound smart after the game if you didn't say anything beforehand.


User currently offlineairmagnac From Germany, joined Apr 2012, 313 posts, RR: 43
Reply 39, posted (11 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 53407 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 27):
Did they hire a new manager of the system center lab?

There isn't a single system center lab, the test rigs are distributed as per the traditionnal Airbus workshare in Toulouse (flight related systems), Hamburg (cabin), Bremen (high-lift), Filton (landing gear), Broughton, Getafe (near Madrid) etc..
No different from any previous program.
The main difference is in integration methods and ICD management (I know you know what that means   )
And some new stuff in the simulators, but shhhh...      

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 22):
I suspect Bombardier needs more benches and is thus having to wait much longer for new software builds.

Maybe it's simply a more general issue of inexperience in how to handle quick modifications to the highly integrated systems. This is after all the first time BBD tests an all-new aircraft design in what...10 years ? (Learjet 40 ?). And that is probably a much much simpler design, without data networks and feedback loops and all those migraine-inducing things.


Quoting ferpe (Reply 30):
since then they have cleaned out all the old non conforming "I ex SNIAS/MBB do it my way" rubbish. That means all work with the same system architecture, tools and digital models since the 350

Ummmm...no  
The rubbish is still there in many places, the inherited tool chains also. But at least the tools are somewhat compatible this time. And the French and Germans appreciate each other a bit more  
Quoting r2rho (Reply 24):
BBD was planning to have all its test aircraft in the air much earlier than Airbus, who just now has MSN3 but MSN2&4 won't arrive until early 2014

Which has its pros and cons. BBD will have more aircraft to perform tests, but any modifications will be incorporated into later aircraft. So the prototypes may end up being very different from production frames, which can be a headache...



One "oh shit" can erase a thousand "attaboys".
User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2630 posts, RR: 1
Reply 40, posted (11 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 52815 times:

Actually, it does seem that with the CSeries BBD is advancing in the same direction as A&B in the area of system integration tests with their new CIASTA, except that for them, it is probably the 1st time they perform systems testing at such a complex level, while A&B can draw on all the experience from previous programs.

Quoting airmagnac (Reply 39):
No different from any previous program.

Somewhat disagree - the result is being definitely very different to previous programs. Suppliers are having to do much more testing than before, prior to delivering to Airbus, and Airbus itself is doing more complex integration testing on their ground means than before. On A350 they have taken all this to a higher level than on A380.


User currently offlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 684 posts, RR: 3
Reply 41, posted (11 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 52237 times:

ground vibration testing is now completed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQGHtXXUGQA


User currently offlineopethfan From Canada, joined Dec 2012, 530 posts, RR: 0
Reply 42, posted (11 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 52040 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 32):
Quoting tortugamon (Reply 33):

I want to see a CS500 (and its projected economics) quite badly.


User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2804 posts, RR: 59
Reply 43, posted (11 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 51844 times:

Quoting queb (Reply 41):
ground vibration testing is now completed.

I don't get it, why was this not completed before first flight? Nothing has changed structurally since then and they have flown the aircraft to M 0.6 without having 100% grip on the bending modes of the wings and airframe??

I find this hard to believe, there is something they have seen in this third flight that makes them go back and redo the tests with more thorough analysis of certain bending modes and frequencies.

To me it has a certain smell of problems. It could also be BBDs test method to do it in an iterative way but then I need others to give examples of other projects that have stepped forward in such an iterative way. To me the bending modes and frequencies and the aerodynamic forces shall have been clear before the third flight, that they then see for instance aero loads that differ is possible but then they should only need to re-run their models to understand if they are approaching flutter ground, not re-run the vibration tests.

[Edited 2013-10-16 22:18:59]


Non French in France
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11674 posts, RR: 33
Reply 44, posted (11 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 51501 times:

Quoting queb (Reply 41):
ground vibration testing is now completed.

Story on Flightglobal:

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...s-ground-vibration-testing-391806/



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineaviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 619 posts, RR: 8
Reply 45, posted (11 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 51423 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 43):

They might have adjusted the FE calculation based on flight test results on the "known" part of the flight enveloppe.
The ground test might be needed to recheck the code on the "unknown part" of the flight enveloppe
Having say that, i'm not convinced... they could have used ground vibration sets from the initial tests for that

Sounds strange


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13120 posts, RR: 100
Reply 46, posted (11 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 51482 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 32):

Look what I found:

Thank you. That puts in nice graphical form (and numbers) why the C-series has pushed both Boeing and Airbus to update their narrowbodies. It also highlights why the SSJ isn't selling so well...

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 28):
They have the iron bird working since 2010, although it was not connected to Aircraft Zero until February 2013.

Thank you. The 2010 is the important date. Early software debugging while building off a known good architecture:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 30):
since then they have cleaned out all the old non conforming "I ex SNIAS/MBB do it my way" rubbish. That means all work with the same system architecture, tools and digital models since the 350.

   I think it also helped having done so shortly after the A380. In other words, the staff is experienced. But this has gone so much better than the *same* work on the A380 I suspect there are a few individuals who helped push through better standard work as a lessons learned.

Quoting LH707330 (Reply 36):
I could see them punting on EIS, but in 2020 everyone will look at it as a solid plane.

Agreed. The hardest part for Bombardier will be selling the first 300 airframes to set up economies of scale (e.g., MRO network) and debug the design. Once it is proven, it should sell nicely. I agree with your timeframe (unfortunately, as I am a HUGE C-series fan). I think Bombardier could accelerate that a bit... but could and will are two different verbs...

Quoting airmagnac (Reply 39):
Maybe it's simply a more general issue of inexperience in how to handle quick modifications to the highly integrated systems.

And probably how to debug before the sub-systems are integrated...

Quoting airmagnac (Reply 39):
without data networks and feedback loops and all those migraine-inducing things.

Tell me about it...

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 684 posts, RR: 3
Reply 47, posted (11 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 51096 times:

Program update from Rob Dewar, CSeries program manager. First CS300 fuselage will arrive later this month.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwkhQDDEgdw


User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2804 posts, RR: 59
Reply 48, posted (11 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 50892 times:

Quoting queb (Reply 47):
Program update from Rob Dewar, CSeries program manager.

Everything looks great except they have flown 3 times in 30 days, that does not look good at all. Why is he not addressing the questions that everyone is asking, why are they on the ground doing stuff that everyone thought they had behind them??

And why is he talking about doing shimmy and vibration tests, they did these before a delayed first flight, why again????

Edit:
I checked around and found this sentence from Leeham news which can explain the shimmy part, but how can indoor vibration testing be delayed by rainy weather  Wow! , on the contrary, if they can't fly for another week they have more time for indoor testing  Yeah sure

"We understand that the long run of rainy weather in advance of the first flight (delayed by a week because of the weather) meant that some of the testing that had been expected in advance of the flight resumed after the flight."

[Edited 2013-10-17 11:38:34]


Non French in France
User currently offlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 684 posts, RR: 3
Reply 49, posted (11 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 50680 times:

Maybe because Bombardier had invited more than 70 carriers for the first flight happening and they could not postpone.

User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2804 posts, RR: 59
Reply 50, posted (11 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 50659 times:

Quoting queb (Reply 49):
Maybe because Bombardier had invited more than 70 carriers for the first flight happening and they could not postpone.

Absolutely, that I buy. Now how can that influence indoor testing? Do you mean they invited these people at short notice because they saw a gap in the weather (which was not good and they had to aim for a hole that appeared) and therefore did the first flight without having completed all first flight preparations? That I would buy but then BBD should have told people to expect a pause in the flight test program to complete these test. They did not. Their behavior is then as mysterious as their tactic around first flight, to give very specific dates and then miss them.

Learn from Airbus, they say summer for first flight and fly in June and then 2H for first deliverym when they deliver we will see but they have given themselves 6 months to keep word. That is the right type of communication, not "before the end of June 2013" stated in Dec 2012   is not IMO.



Non French in France
User currently offlinejalarner From Canada, joined Apr 2007, 46 posts, RR: 0
Reply 51, posted (11 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 50304 times:

One more video on youtube today (Oct 17th), this one the "ESIM" engineering simulator.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k_e0Je-iIds

I saw today on my iPhone in the stock news that Bombardier is in advanced talks and fleet/business model planning with numerous airlines. All this has been since the first flight. I wonder when these may turn to orders. Apparently in the last week or so they have had 60+ airlines/lessors in for a visit during an ICAO assembly.

I don't have the link at the moment, if anyone can add it that would be great.

Jamie



Support air cadets!
User currently offlinegolfradio From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 766 posts, RR: 2
Reply 52, posted (11 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 50240 times:

Is it possible that they deferred some of the testing for the transonic regime to after the first set of flights? Sort of pull in the first flight date by limiting the max speed to about M0.6 and only doing the required ground vibration tests needed.

Since they were not going to expand the envelope to MMO and beyond or VD/MD for any flutter testing, get the first flight out of the way to appease everyone?


User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2804 posts, RR: 59
Reply 53, posted (11 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 50111 times:

Quoting golfradio (Reply 52):
Is it possible that they deferred some of the testing for the transonic regime to after the first set of flights? Sort of pull in the first flight date by limiting the max speed to about M0.6 and only doing the required ground vibration tests needed.

Since they were not going to expand the envelope to MMO and beyond or VD/MD for any flutter testing, get the first flight out of the way to appease everyone?

This is fully possible, and seems to be supported by the following FlightGlobal story:

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...n-next-cseries-test-flight-391852/

"Dewar also noted that the aircraft remains in ground vibration testing, even though Bombardier said last June that such testing had been completed.

The previous round of ground vibration testing simply cleared the FTV-1 for first flight, says Philippe Poutissou, vice-president of marketing for Bombardier Commercial Aircraft. The second round will allow Bombardier to proceed into envelope expansion flights.

“It was a decision of sequencing that we made earlier,” Poutissou says on the sidelines of the Canadian Aerospace Summit in Ottawa.

FTV-1 demonstrated in the first three flights the stability and control that Bombardier expected, Poutissou says.

The aircraft flew all three flights in direct mode, meaning that the normal fly-by-wire control system has so far not been activated. The next round of flight tests will begin examining the normal mode of the fly-by-wire system, in which the flight computer commands the control surfaces based on inputs by the pilot.

“We are getting ready to fly the aircraft higher, faster and at a different [centre of gravity],” Poutissou adds."


The thing I don't understand in such case is why they don't say that after the third flight, it would stop all speculation that something is fishy. Once again their communication strategy is the least impressive part of the program  Wow! .



Non French in France
User currently offlinerikkus67 From Canada, joined Jun 2000, 1646 posts, RR: 1
Reply 54, posted (11 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 50041 times:

Quoting golfradio (Reply 52):
Is it possible that they deferred some of the testing for the transonic regime to after the first set of flights?
Quoting ferpe (Reply 53):
“It was a decision of sequencing that we made earlier,” Poutissou says on the sidelines of the Canadian Aerospace Summit in Ottawa.

Thanks for a most logical question, golfradio, and for the official update, ferpe.

Although it seems that progress is at less than a snails pace, I would rather BBD get it right the first time, rather than having to bandage hiccups later.



AC.WA.CP.DL.RW.CO.WG.WJ.WN.KI.FL.SK.ACL.UA.US.F9
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13120 posts, RR: 100
Reply 55, posted (11 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 50089 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting ferpe (Reply 23):
I think it is time for some aviation Journalist to ask BBD why things are progressing so slowly.

I concur. Something isn't adding up, not if they really have the same flight test schedule as the A350. Oh, we can agree the A350 is a more complex plane that has additional testing required for the far ETOPs operations.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 53):
Once again their communication strategy is the least impressive part of the program

Again, I concur. But the schedule of testing does not match the goals. Not if BBD is going to achieve ETOPs at EIS.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 53):
The aircraft flew all three flights in direct mode,

  That implies a software debugging process *far* behind schedule. I hope I am wrong...

Note: I worked for a company that found out the cost of flight testing was cut *dramatically* doing the first flight in normal mode. So I'm a wee bit biased. But man did that force early debugging of the flight control software. Once it was pulled off by one project, all other projects were benchmarked against that and found to be too expensive in comparison for little to no risk reduction. But that is an opinion based out of the culture I came out of and I see why Bombardier is doing what they are doing.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11674 posts, RR: 33
Reply 56, posted (11 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 49722 times:

Per Twitter reports, China's CDB Leasing signed a conditional purchase agreement for 5 CS100 and 10 CS300 aircraft, plus 15 options.

[Edited 2013-10-18 05:17:39]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11674 posts, RR: 33
Reply 57, posted (11 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 49610 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 56):
Per Twitter reports, China's CDB Leasing signed a conditional purchase agreement for 5 CS100 and 10 CS300 aircraft, plus 15 options.

And here is the press release:

http://www.bombardier.com/en/media-c...rdierdisclosescdbleasingcoltd.html



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13120 posts, RR: 100
Reply 58, posted (11 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 49578 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 57):
Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 56):
Per Twitter reports, China's CDB Leasing signed a conditional purchase agreement for 5 CS100 and 10 CS300 aircraft, plus 15 options.

And here is the press release:

Most excellent!   

I didn't see in your link the conditions. I would assume performance related, but is there more?

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineDash9 From Canada, joined Nov 2008, 198 posts, RR: 0
Reply 59, posted (11 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 49501 times:

At last a Chinese order! Its been speculated for a long time and with the tie-up between BBD and Comac I've been expecting more orders from China.

User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11674 posts, RR: 33
Reply 60, posted (11 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 48993 times:

There is some outdoor activity again.

http://twitter.com/sylvainfaust

Quote:
FTV1 currently towed to usual road 408 for engine runup



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinePaolo92 From Italy, joined Oct 2007, 261 posts, RR: 0
Reply 61, posted (11 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 48895 times:

The nice thing of the CDB Leasing deal is that they appear to have increased the total, as the "original" conditional order did not include options.


Each evening, stars come out their daylight hiding places... But one of those, will be my wingtip, passing over...
User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5465 posts, RR: 30
Reply 62, posted (11 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 48477 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 53):

I agree...BBD totally sucks at communicating...not just flight test details...but anything. It seems like they are very paranoid of releasing information which may be contradicted at a later time...but it also seems like they get so caught up in the nuts and bolts of their project, that they forget about all the people interested in the program.

I suspect that prospective customers are very up to date with the program...but journalists, pundits, self proclaimed aviation experts and we enthusiasts, are left in the dark to guess and speculate.

It makes sense to me that the first few flights were in direct mode. If you really want to gauge aircraft performance parameters, it seems cutting a system out of the loop which would probably mask any inherent problems, is a good idea.

None of this, though, quells my curiosity one iota. I want these things blotting out the sun, dammit.



What the...?
User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4226 posts, RR: 1
Reply 63, posted (11 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 47971 times:

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 62):
I suspect that prospective customers are very up to date with the program...but journalists, pundits, self proclaimed aviation experts and we enthusiasts, are left in the dark to guess and speculate.

I really don't think that BBD really cares about those of us outside of the aviation industry who have a enthusiast curiosity about the aircraft.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlinepnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2241 posts, RR: 12
Reply 64, posted (11 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 47785 times:

Quoting brilondon (Reply 63):
Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 62):
I suspect that prospective customers are very up to date with the program...but journalists, pundits, self proclaimed aviation experts and we enthusiasts, are left in the dark to guess and speculate.

I really don't think that BBD really cares about those of us outside of the aviation industry who have a enthusiast curiosity about the aircraft.

Unless you are a major shareholder asking for updates. The immediate success of the program hinges on the success of the testing. The immediate long term success depends on orders. The much lesser and not urgent is the curiousity of Aviation Fans and to some extent the public. John Q public is not watching for every inch of movement nor keeping track of how many hours in the air. John Q or in other words the masses will be the one's flying on the aircraft to large extent. Unless there is a massive problem with large scale advertising, to the public no news is good news.


User currently offlineArrow From Canada, joined Jun 2002, 2676 posts, RR: 2
Reply 65, posted (11 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 47765 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting brilondon (Reply 63):
I really don't think that BBD really cares about those of us outside of the aviation industry who have a enthusiast curiosity about the aircraft.

Keep in mind that this is a publicly-traded company, listed on both the Toronto and New York Stock Exchanges. They have to be very careful what they say publicly, and equally careful about what they DON'T say publicly.

With that in mind, understand that if anything is happening with the test program that constitutes a "material event" -- i.e. it would affect the company's financial performance and influence the market, driving the share price (in either direction),they are required to disclose that in a timely fashion or risk the wrath of the OSC and the SEC -- not to mention the potential for shareholder lawsuits. IMHO a major delay in the development of the CSeries would be a material event, given the amount of money invested and the impact on the aerospace division should they incur penalties (for late delivery) or, worse, lose customers.

What that possibly means is that no news is good news. Don't bet money on it, though.



Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
User currently offlineplanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6186 posts, RR: 34
Reply 66, posted (11 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 47320 times:

Quoting Arrow (Reply 65):
Keep in mind that this is a publicly-traded company, listed on both the Toronto and New York Stock Exchanges.

BBD is not listed on the New York Stock Exchange. Many people assume that it is. However, being listed on the New York Stock Exchange had been an objective of Paul Tellier who was Bombardier's President and CEO from 2003 to end of 2004.



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlinearrow From Canada, joined Jun 2002, 2676 posts, RR: 2
Reply 67, posted (11 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 47111 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting planemaker (Reply 66):
BBD is not listed on the New York Stock Exchange.

Oops -- you're right. Shouldn't make logical assumptions. Doesn't change the reporting rules, though.



Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
User currently offlineplanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6186 posts, RR: 34
Reply 68, posted (11 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 47082 times:

Quoting arrow (Reply 67):
Doesn't change the reporting rules, though.

It does as the NYSE requirements are "stricter" than the TSX... but that is not saying too much. In any case, most people are simply not aware just how "managed" the "reporting" actually is in relative comparison to the public's perceived strictness of the rules. One only has to look at the MBS fiasco (among several) as just one mere example.



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlinejalarner From Canada, joined Apr 2007, 46 posts, RR: 0
Reply 69, posted (11 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 46286 times:

Anyone watching/owning BBD-B.TO stocks must really like today....they are up 19 cents (and were up 9 cents on friday). Not a huge amount, but it's the 3.35% that is nice!

I think an educated guess would have this stem from the Chinese leasing company announcement last week.

Any guesses as to what airlines in China or that part of the world might be interested in the CSeries? I don't think there has been a detailed discussion of this yet...

Jamie



Support air cadets!
User currently offlineDash9 From Canada, joined Nov 2008, 198 posts, RR: 0
Reply 70, posted (11 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 45979 times:

Quoting jalarner (Reply 69):
I think an educated guess would have this stem from the Chinese leasing company announcement last week.

They just announced a firm sale of 30 Learjet85 to Flexjet, I guess this explains today's rally.


User currently offlineCRJ900X From Canada, joined Dec 2006, 197 posts, RR: 0
Reply 71, posted (11 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 45812 times:

According to the article, Iraqi Airways will be ordering 5 x CS300's from Bombardier.

Link: http://www.iraq-businessnews.com/201...et-authorises-bombardier-contract/

I guess with this order, Iraqi Airways will not take delivery of the 4 remaining CRJ900's that they placed some years ago. Hopefully Bombardier will be able to find new buyers for the CR9's soon.

Sounds like the CSeries is starting to gain some traction and it will be interesting to see if Lion Air and Qatar Airways order any before the year is up.

Cheers,
CRJ900X


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11674 posts, RR: 33
Reply 72, posted (11 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 45394 times:

Quote:
But we’re told by a source familiar with the program, but who is not with BBD, that BBD is being conservative in its pace, counting on the fact that it will eventually have seven FTVs to bring entry-into-service on time. A few Canadian aerospace analysts think EIS will slip to 1Q2015.

Whole article:
http://leehamnews.wordpress.com/2013...is-tide-ready-to-turn-for-cseries/



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineCRJ900 From Norway, joined Jun 2004, 2191 posts, RR: 1
Reply 73, posted (11 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 45240 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting CRJ900X (Reply 71):
I guess with this order, Iraqi Airways will not take delivery of the 4 remaining CRJ900's that they placed some years ago. Hopefully Bombardier will be able to find new buyers for the CR9's soon.

Don't they have enough routes for the last four CR9s? Are those four CR9s already built and stored? If not, no money loss for BBD, I would think.

Great if Iraqi goes for the CS300, can't wait to see that bird fly.



Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
User currently offlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 684 posts, RR: 3
Reply 74, posted (11 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 45200 times:

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 73):
Are those four CR9s already built and stored?

Yes, they are on the tarmac just beside the FAL.


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11674 posts, RR: 33
Reply 75, posted (11 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 44808 times:

FTV1 next flight will be fly-by-wire in "Normal Mode".

http://twitter.com/sylvainfaust/status/392728944916439040



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 684 posts, RR: 3
Reply 76, posted (11 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 44638 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 75):
FTV1 next flight will be fly-by-wire in "Normal Mode".

the real question is not "how" but "when"

CSeries Awaits Fly-by-Wire ‘Upgrade’ Before Flying Again
http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-ne...aits-fly-wire-upgrade-flying-again


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11674 posts, RR: 33
Reply 77, posted (11 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 44929 times:

Thanks for sharing the article. Still no real answers though.

And a small update on FTV2:
http://twitter.com/sylvainfaust/status/392752908405469184



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4737 posts, RR: 39
Reply 78, posted (11 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 44883 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 77):
Thanks for sharing the article. Still no real answers though.

Which is a bit disappointing, but they must have their reasons for it. Hope she will fly again soon.


User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2804 posts, RR: 59
Reply 79, posted (11 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 44523 times:

Quoting queb (Reply 76):
Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 75):
FTV1 next flight will be fly-by-wire in "Normal Mode".

the real question is not "how" but "when"

CSeries Awaits Fly-by-Wire ‘Upgrade’ Before Flying Again
http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-ne...again

Here a fair excerpt:

"In an interview with AIN last Friday, Bombardier Commercial Aircraft marketing vice president Philippe Poutissou said the CSeries would fly again once engineers finished an upgrade to its Parker Aerospace fly-by-wire flight control system to allow the airplane to operate in “normal” mode. Test pilots flew the airplane in so-called direct mode during the first three flights, without the full aid of the fly-by-wire system.

“It’s been part of the design of the flight test to do that first bit initial assessment on the direct mode, and the next block of testing I believe we will be going into normal mode,” said Poutissou. “So we have to basically roll [out] that software on the fly-by-wire.”


It makes you wonder why they would need "normal" mode to go beyond M 0.6 and higher then FL250. I think it has to do with damping. It should mean you can't activate yaw damping (which would be the most essential damping) in direct mode, which I find a bit strange. But it could also mean they were not sure of the damping parameters and needed both aero and resonance mode data to tune the so called inner loops of a FBW system. In a FBW system the inner loops contains the damping and any flight angle and angle of attack limitations. The outer loops are the auto flight modes like attitude, vertical speed, altitude and M hold etc.

In this case I think the important parts are the damping loops, as you fly faster then M 0.6 you came into areas where things like dutch roll (to low yaw damping, to stiff natural damping in roll) comes into play. Also when you go higher the natural aerodynamic damping of the fin etc decays and you once again face yaw instability, dutch roll tendency etc.

So it seems it is the un-familiarity with the FBW which causes this fly, analyse and tune, fly, analyse and tune to be so much slower compared to the FBW pro Airbus and Boeing.


Edit: for those who wonder what Dutch roll is, read here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_roll

The other mode which could cause trouble when going faster and higher up would be the short mode pitch oscillation but that shall normally be well enough damped for a test pilot to fly the regime. It is later a certification criteria that you can do without pitch damping I think, not sure about yaw damping. The long term phugoid and spiral modes are not causing any trouble, those you fight every day when you fly a Cessna or Piper, this is called "keep the altitude and wings level for gods sake" ie you are the damper Big grin .

[Edited 2013-10-23 00:12:53]


Non French in France
User currently offlinedavs5032 From United States of America, joined Sep 2010, 393 posts, RR: 0
Reply 80, posted (11 months 1 day ago) and read 44448 times:

Quoting jalarner (Reply 69):

Anyone watching/owning BBD-B.TO stocks must really like today....they are up 19 cents (and were up 9 cents on friday). Not a huge amount, but it's the 3.35% that is nice!

Yes I'm happy with recent gains   . Still, though I'm looking more long term for BBD. I feel like the stock is quite under-priced given the potential for the Cseries. We'll have to wait and see if the program can fulfill it's potential, (which I think is huge), but either way, the market is showing some "787 based anxiety" which I feel are de-valuing the Cseries and excessively-weighing down BBD's stock price. I hope I'm right, but who knows at this point.


User currently offlineAviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 619 posts, RR: 8
Reply 81, posted (11 months 1 day ago) and read 44404 times:

So new ground vibration test could have been with FBW on and dampening on also ?

User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2804 posts, RR: 59
Reply 82, posted (11 months 22 hours ago) and read 44268 times:

Quoting Aviaponcho (Reply 81):
So new ground vibration test could have been with FBW on and dampening on also ?

Not quite sure. It would not have been for the whole time, you want to collect the fundamental structural bending modes and resonance frequencies first to udpate your dynamic structural model. Once you have done that you might do a next step with damping in the loop but I doubt it. The damping is normally not set to dampen the structural modes (the 748 is an exception where this was used for certain wing flutter damping) but the aerodynamic oscillations I described (which would be lower frequency and larger amplitudes). If your inner loops are required to dampen structural things they have to work very hard and you would get maintenance issues IMO. The 748 only uses it for very specific short duration patches of the flight envelope, then it can we useful as it is not working all the time.

It was a while since I was involved in FBW so I am not sure, perhaps someone else can chip in.

Clear is that you take the results from aero testing (both CFD, small and real world windtunnel) and then tune your damping respones. Then you check that your damping does not excite or gets affected by any of your structural modes by putting the damping into the structural model together with the aero oscilations. That is why you need both an close tracking aero and structural model and might be why BBD has divided the testing like this as they got real world aero data in the 3rd flight which helps with this final tuning of the dampers.



Non French in France
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11674 posts, RR: 33
Reply 83, posted (11 months 16 hours ago) and read 43932 times:

FTV1 taxied to the start of the runway:
http://twitter.com/sylvainfaust/status/392996655584120832

But an issue prevents her from flying:
http://twitter.com/sylvainfaust/status/393004029531271169



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinegolfradio From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 766 posts, RR: 2
Reply 84, posted (11 months 16 hours ago) and read 43912 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 79):
It should mean you can't activate yaw damping (which would be the most essential damping) in direct mode, which I find a bit strange

Please don't get me wrong, I am not questioning but just trying to wrap my head around this and learn.

I am trying to understand the link between the yaw dampers and the FBW mode. Shouldn't yaw dampers be independent of the flight mode i.e. always on or off depending upon whether engaged or not? Yaw dampers would be working off their own gyros or yaw accelerometers and then act on the final output of the rudder deflection. The final output of the rudder deflection will be the result of the FBW mode (no filtering in Direct mode versus filtering in Normal)?

Also why wouldn't the yaw dampers be needed below M0.6?


User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2804 posts, RR: 59
Reply 85, posted (11 months 13 hours ago) and read 43676 times:

Quoting golfradio (Reply 84):
Please don't get me wrong, I am not questioning

Don't get me wrong  , it was ages since I dwelled on this stuff and I am on thin ice  Wow! so you should put in question what I write  , further I am speculating as to what BBD is doing and why...

Quoting golfradio (Reply 84):
I am trying to understand the link between the yaw dampers and the FBW mode. Shouldn't yaw dampers be independent of the flight mode i.e. always on or off depending upon whether engaged or not? Yaw dampers would be working off their own gyros or yaw accelerometers and then act on the final output of the rudder deflection. The final output of the rudder deflection will be the result of the FBW mode (no filtering in Direct mode versus filtering in Normal)?

It used to be like that, you had a mechanical control system and the damping with gyros was on top. In modern FBW you double for redundancy but not for function, thus the rate gyros serve both damping, inner loop limiters/modifiers/filters and any outer loop functions. I therefore think that when the BBD marketing guy says we will use "normal" mode everyone thinks "aha with the envelop protection and such". I don't think that is the case, I would not like to fly a first flight into M > 0.6 with such stuff active but I could very well take the dampings and some frequency filters which prohibits structural resonances to mess up my FBW (my gyros pick up fuselage deflections and interpret it as aircraft movements). So to me normal mode means some necessary damping and filtering active to increase safety and observability of real dangerous stuff, see below.

Depending on how direct mode is made you are fine in direct controlling the control surface up to a certain speed and altitude. Then as things go faster low down you come into PIO area, as you go higher your yawn damping weakens and you risk dutch roll. PIO is not fun at all but a test pilot is trained to let go of the stick to stop it, dutch roll is just unpleasant and before it goes to far your are off throttle to dampen it.

As you really chase any signs of flutter and make very special control inputs to exite and detect that (steps, sweeps, .....) you don't want the other stuff to show up at the same time, it can delay any flutter boundary detection and then it gets dangerous.

Re damping at lower speeds, generally the movements are slower and you can intervene as a pilot, you are in phase (PIO is when you are opposite phase  ) .

But as said, skating on thin ice.....



Non French in France
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11674 posts, RR: 33
Reply 86, posted (11 months 13 hours ago) and read 43592 times:

FTV1 didn't make it into the air today.


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11674 posts, RR: 33
Reply 87, posted (11 months 11 hours ago) and read 43419 times:

FTV2 is online.

http://twitter.com/sylvainfaust/status/393113801060388864/photo/1



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineQuantos From Canada, joined Jan 2013, 160 posts, RR: 0
Reply 88, posted (11 months 10 hours ago) and read 43239 times:

Damnit. I keep seeing planes over my house and think that it's FTV1 :P Just a few minutes ago, a twin-engine jet is over the house as I exit the car. I come into the house and open planefinder.net to see what it was, but FTV1 is quietly sitting at YMX. That said, I haven't figured out what plane it was, it just seems that there's either a very big delay, or some planes just don't show up on there.

User currently offlinegolfradio From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 766 posts, RR: 2
Reply 89, posted (11 months 8 hours ago) and read 43088 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 85):

Thanks ferpe. I'll chew on this for a while.


User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5465 posts, RR: 30
Reply 90, posted (11 months 1 hour ago) and read 42774 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 85):

Good stuff...thanks.



What the...?
User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4737 posts, RR: 39
Reply 91, posted (10 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 42606 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 86):
FTV1 didn't make it into the air today.

Too bad, hope they will get the flight test and certification process on the way (or better; in the air  ) as soon as possible.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 90):
Good stuff...thanks.

Yeah, ferpe is teaching us all a lot. Such posts are so interesting to read, though as just an aviation enthusiast sometime I do not grasp all he is posting, but I am quite convinced he is correct in his postings.  


User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2804 posts, RR: 59
Reply 92, posted (10 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 42212 times:

Re a typical FBW system and it's different modes I did a bit of checking after the last post. The Airbus FBW does not have the yaw damper active in direct law, they do have variable pitch gain however, this is to reduce the risk of Pilot Induced Oscillations, PIO.

Reducing the pitch gain (lowering the amount of elevator you get for a certain stick movement aft and forward) with speed is a standard way to regulate that the elevator gets more powerful the faster it goes and you finally enter a domain where you sneezing can make the pax sit in the roof . Then there is also the risk that you come in anti-phase with the aircraft with your reactions to any disturbance and you have PIO, which is dangerous if the pilot does not let go of the stick.

So I would believe the Cseries FBW does not have yaw damping in direct mode and might have no or very crude pitch gain control with speed (or really q, dynamic pressure, which is density of air * speed^2 ). Then I would like to have "stripped" normal mode as well for extending the envelope  .



Non French in France
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11674 posts, RR: 33
Reply 93, posted (10 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 41470 times:

Not much to report; FTV1 did some high speed taxi tests today.


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinerikkus67 From Canada, joined Jun 2000, 1646 posts, RR: 1
Reply 94, posted (10 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 41439 times:

Minor news at best, Karel. The positive way to look at it, is that the aircraft is moving under its own power. I'd rather have movement, then the aircraft sitting in the hangar.

Better to find the initial headaches now, before EIS, rather than have headaches (or worse) afterwards...



AC.WA.CP.DL.RW.CO.WG.WJ.WN.KI.FL.SK.ACL.UA.US.F9
User currently offlineinfiniti329 From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 667 posts, RR: 0
Reply 95, posted (10 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 41217 times:

Quoting rikkus67 (Reply 94):

Exactly it will save them millions of dollars..ask boeing how much money they gave away


User currently offlineYXwatcherMKE From United States of America, joined May 2007, 1003 posts, RR: 2
Reply 96, posted (10 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 41178 times:

Quoting rikkus67 (Reply 94):
Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 95):

I can't agree more with either of your two statement! I am sure BBD is being very careful with how they proceed, they can't afford to pay out monies to airlines for problems that show after delivery. I'm sure that some of the early airlines are concerned about the delays already.



I miss the 60's & 70's when you felt like a guest on the plane not cattle like today
User currently offlineDash9 From Canada, joined Nov 2008, 198 posts, RR: 0
Reply 97, posted (10 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 40182 times:

[quite] A bit off-topic but I finally came across an online version of the documentary around the creation of the original Canadair challenger. With all the shooting we see for the clips on Cseries development, I hope an equivalent documentary will be possible later on.

http://www.nfb.ca/film/challenger_an_industrial_romance/

-Dash9


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11674 posts, RR: 33
Reply 98, posted (10 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 39215 times:

The next flight is scheduled for today.

http://twitter.com/sylvainfaust/status/395567001344565248

  



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineyyztpa From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 39 posts, RR: 0
Reply 99, posted (10 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 39095 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 98):
The next flight is scheduled for today

Scheduled for 12:40pm local time.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BBA501
Filed for 250kts and 14,000ft


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11674 posts, RR: 33
Reply 100, posted (10 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 38719 times:

FTV1 is airborne, 4th flight.

http://planefinder.net/flight/BBD501



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2804 posts, RR: 59
Reply 101, posted (10 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 38660 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 100):
FTV1 is airborne, 4th flight.

http://planefinder.net/flight/BBD501


You see here equally well on FR24, put in BBD as the filter.



Non French in France
User currently offlinerlwynn From Germany, joined Dec 2000, 1085 posts, RR: 1
Reply 102, posted (10 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 38898 times:

On FR24 both the live and delayed planes show.


I can drive faster than you
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11674 posts, RR: 33
Reply 103, posted (10 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 38736 times:

FTV1 is about to land.

[Edit]

And landed, it was a short flight.

[Edited 2013-10-30 14:07:43]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4737 posts, RR: 39
Reply 104, posted (10 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 38518 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 103):
And landed, it was a short flight.

But it counts as a flight. Obviously they are very careful and cautious about speeding up the flight test program. I am sure they will have their reasons for that.


User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2804 posts, RR: 59
Reply 105, posted (10 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 38177 times:

I looked at the playback, they went up to 11000 ft and there gradually increased the ground speed to 330kts when going east then this lowered to 260kts when turning west, seems they have about 35kts of westerly winds.

This means they did one leg of 300kts at 11000ft and then did another leg or so at 200kts and then went home. The flight plan said 250kts and 14000ft so that fits (it was pretty windy so might have stayed at 11000ft) but after 1 months of working on the frame I find it somehow disappointing.

Lets see if this was a short check flight before something more productive, with these kind of hops there is no opening up of the flight envelope. If the next flight takes weeks again they have problems with flight critical software.



Non French in France
User currently offlinesirtoby From Germany, joined Nov 2007, 376 posts, RR: 22
Reply 106, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 37955 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 105):
Lets see if this was a short check flight before something more productive, with these kind of hops there is no opening up of the flight envelope

The flight was meant to calibrate the trailing cone. Flight length as planned!


User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2804 posts, RR: 59
Reply 107, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 37785 times:

Quoting sirtoby (Reply 106):
The flight was meant to calibrate the trailing cone. Flight length as planned!

Great! You seem to be in the know, please give us more of this kind of information when you can    .



Non French in France
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11674 posts, RR: 33
Reply 108, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 37476 times:

FTV3 is online and visible on planefinder.net


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11674 posts, RR: 33
Reply 109, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 37375 times:

Al Baker (Qatar) about a possible CSeries order:

Quote:
"We're still interested in #CSeries but only when we see bigger orders to make sure it's a sustainable programme"


Chicken, egg   



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 684 posts, RR: 3
Reply 110, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 37335 times:

Bombardier (C-FBCS/BBA501) reported a bird strike during a high speed test on Runway 24 at Mirabel on sept 18th. No damage.

http://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/Saf-Sec-Sur/...3dQR%26hypl%3dy%26cnum%3d2013Q2056


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11674 posts, RR: 33
Reply 111, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 37060 times:

Alright, both FTV2 and FTV3 are online.

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BX7XxvVCIAAd-Jk.jpg:large



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11674 posts, RR: 33
Reply 112, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 36969 times:

The last flight was not flown in normal mode yet.

http://twitter.com/FG_STrim/status/396000380883963904



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11674 posts, RR: 33
Reply 113, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 36873 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 111):
Alright, both FTV2 and FTV3 are online.

Now FTV1 joined the party.

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BX7piSvCIAAly0K.jpg:large



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11674 posts, RR: 33
Reply 114, posted (10 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 36426 times:

Per Bombardier, FTV2 is expected to fly “within weeks”.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...ircraft-nearing-completion-392410/



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineplanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6186 posts, RR: 34
Reply 115, posted (10 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 36068 times:

Some media coverage of BBD's 3rd QTR release on Thursday with the spotlight falling on the CSeries...

Bombardier Inc shares dive after it fails to deliver on CSeries update and profit

C Series delivery worries hang over Bombardier

Bombardier CEO says CSeries on track despite only four test flights in six weeks

Bombardier profit dips as plane deliveries, orders fall



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11674 posts, RR: 33
Reply 116, posted (10 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 36062 times:

Quoting planemaker (Reply 115):
Bombardier CEO says CSeries on track

And:

Quote:
“We’re looking at the schedule now and we will get back in the next few months to show where the schedule will be,” Mr. Beaudoin said on a conference call.

I think we all know what this means.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineplanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6186 posts, RR: 34
Reply 117, posted (10 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 36004 times:

Also coming out on the same day, something that may impact Porter's CS100 plans @ YTO since the mayor is a proponent of expansion and the controversy below may push council approval to the sidelines for a while...

Toronto Mayor Rob Ford refuses to resign over 'drug video'



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlinepnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2241 posts, RR: 12
Reply 118, posted (10 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 35820 times:

Quoting planemaker (Reply 117):
Also coming out on the same day, something that may impact Porter's CS100 plans @ YTO since the mayor is a proponent of expansion and the controversy below may push council approval to the sidelines for a while...

Toronto Mayor Rob Ford refuses to resign over 'drug video'

While a major debacle and circus sideshow, has nothing to do with the C Series and very little to do with Porter. Today a major portion of the city budget was approved and dealt with in committee without the Mayor or his Councilor Brother in attendance. That will continue. If anything with the media running amok and distracted the chances of the Airport Expansion passing could even be better.


User currently offlineplanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6186 posts, RR: 34
Reply 119, posted (10 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 35721 times:

Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 118):
While a major debacle and circus sideshow, has nothing to do with the C Series and very little to do with Porter.
Ford had advance briefing on airport expansion plans

Surprise motion by Rob Ford lands Porter Airline jet request on May council agenda

.

Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 118):
Today a major portion of the city budget was approved and dealt with in committee without the Mayor or his Councilor Brother in attendance.

A budget is not optional business for a city... Porter's plans very much are.  



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 684 posts, RR: 3
Reply 120, posted (10 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 35088 times:

Flight test update from Bombardier. The last flight was for calibration (like sirtoby said earlier).

"Following the latest in a period of pre-planned ground certification tests, configuration updates and software upgrades, the first CSeries aircraft, FTV1, completed its latest test flight in Mirabel, Québec this week. The test flight in this round was mainly for calibration proofing to ensure accuracy in the re-configured aircraft’s readings as FTV1 prepares to fly more frequently going forward."

http://cseries.com/ftv1-takes-flight...g-pre-scheduled-ground-activities/


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11674 posts, RR: 33
Reply 121, posted (10 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 33993 times:

Lion Group President Director Rusdi Kirana says there will be no early decision on whether to place a firm order for Bombardier’s CSeries airliner.

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....e-xml/awx_11_05_2013_p0-633692.xml



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinePaolo92 From Italy, joined Oct 2007, 261 posts, RR: 0
Reply 122, posted (10 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 33951 times:

Arik Air could add 15 CS300 to its fleet according to Flightglobal and further conversations between Arik and Bombardier are going to take place in the near future.
The plan seems to be replacing all 737-700 and potentially also phase out CRJs from the fleet.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...ssible-order-for-15-cs300s-392519/



Each evening, stars come out their daylight hiding places... But one of those, will be my wingtip, passing over...
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13120 posts, RR: 100
Reply 123, posted (10 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 33641 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 109):

Al Baker (Qatar) about a possible CSeries order:

Quote:
"We're still interested in #CSeries but only when we see bigger orders to make sure it's a sustainable programme"


Chicken, egg

Not a bad decision by QR. I'm sure they're still smarting from 787 delays/bugs. By keeping their 'toe in the water,' QR should get a good deal. But for better financing, it takes a market of 400+ airframes at 20+ airlines for a 'liquid resale market.' I'm a C-series fan, but at this point, there is little incentive for airlines to order early.

Quoting Paolo92 (Reply 122):
Arik Air could add 15 CS300 to its fleet according to Flightglobal and further conversations between Arik and Bombardier are going to take place in the near future.
The plan seems to be replacing all 737-700 and potentially also

Most excellent. Between the Chinese order and this, we should see a QR order within 18 months.    I do not expect QR to order before 3+ months of EIS performance data.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 32):
Look what I found:

Nice link. I already have the chart up on my office wall.  
Quoting tortugamon (Reply 33):
Something tells me A & B are not very excited to see the CS300

It kills the business case for the -7MAX/A319NEO. Saving 10% per flight isn't chump change (but less than Bombardier was bragging about, which will be on longer missions).

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11674 posts, RR: 33
Reply 124, posted (10 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 33296 times:

FTV1 is about to depart on its 5th flight.

[Edited 2013-11-05 10:22:31]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11674 posts, RR: 33
Reply 125, posted (10 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 33287 times:

And airborne http://planefinder.net/flight/BBD501


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2804 posts, RR: 59
Reply 126, posted (10 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 33244 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 125):
And airborne http://planefinder.net/flight/BBD501

I find you follow her better on flightradar24, put in filter BBD and you will see her north of Mirabel, right now FL130 and 160kt groundspeed.



Non French in France
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11674 posts, RR: 33
Reply 127, posted (10 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 33498 times:

Thanks ferpe http://fr24.com/BBD501


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11674 posts, RR: 33
Reply 128, posted (10 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 33273 times:

And she's back on the ground.


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5465 posts, RR: 30
Reply 129, posted (10 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 33266 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 128):

Damn....it will be so nice when it manages a flight of more than an hour and a half.



What the...?
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2804 posts, RR: 59
Reply 130, posted (10 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 33276 times:

She landed as BBA501 at 20:04 Z, once again a FL130 flight below 300kts. It is not progressing fast I must say, she has still not covered what the A350 did in the first day of flight testing.


Non French in France
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11674 posts, RR: 33
Reply 131, posted (10 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 33236 times:

The flight looks very similar to the previous flight, probably done in Normal Mode too.


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinegolfradio From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 766 posts, RR: 2
Reply 132, posted (10 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 33231 times:

I hope they haven't run into any serious FBW gotchas. It's a little uncomfortable to see no progress even after almost 2 months of first flight.

User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13120 posts, RR: 100
Reply 133, posted (10 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 33238 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting ferpe (Reply 130):
It is not progressing fast I must say, she has still not covered what the A350 did in the first day of flight testing.

The A350 had an *amazing* first day of flight and has had an incredible flight test program. I haven't seen anything like it before. By this point in the A350 flight testing, the 777, 787, and A380 were all having issues that put into delays. I'm excited how the A350 flight testing is going, but it is simply setting a new benchmark.


That said, it is very disappointing the C-series is not in envelope expansion flight testing...

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5465 posts, RR: 30
Reply 134, posted (10 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 32785 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 133):

The one saving grace, (in a mixed blessing kind of way), is that major fly by wire software changes are on Parker. That doesn't make things any better for customers at this point but it's little differenct than GE or RR, for example, falling short on the 787 engines.

While any delay or setback is properly set at the feet of whomever's name is on the side of the aircraft, everybody is also aware that subcontractors ultimately do bear some responsibility.



What the...?
User currently offlinesirtoby From Germany, joined Nov 2007, 376 posts, RR: 22
Reply 135, posted (10 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 32730 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 131):
The flight looks very similar to the previous flight, probably done in Normal Mode too.

Yesterday's flight should have been in normal mode and sort of repliacted the first flight! I wait for confirmation though...


User currently offlineAviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 619 posts, RR: 8
Reply 136, posted (10 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 32657 times:

So going from direct to normal is a great step forward ? Isnt'it ?

User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11674 posts, RR: 33
Reply 137, posted (10 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 32570 times:

Quoting Aviaponcho (Reply 136):
So going from direct to normal is a great step forward ? Isnt'it ?

   It would be a good sign of progress, but let's wait until sirtoby confirms it.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2804 posts, RR: 59
Reply 138, posted (10 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 32278 times:

Quoting Aviaponcho (Reply 136):
So going from direct to normal is a great step forward ? Isnt'it ?

It would explain why they did virtually do the first flight all over again. Still if everything was OK they should have been able to see that in real time and continued into higher air and speed, they did not.



Non French in France
User currently offlineAviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 619 posts, RR: 8
Reply 139, posted (10 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 32244 times:

Indeed if they redo the first flighr, it implies same fuel load, same CG and so on
So no possibility to extend the flight time

The indicator will be the frequency of the flights... 4 and 5 were closer than the other


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11674 posts, RR: 33
Reply 140, posted (10 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 32157 times:

Here's a video of the 5th flight:

http://youtu.be/JDnBjgqXUX8



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11674 posts, RR: 33
Reply 141, posted (10 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 32027 times:

FTV1 is airborne again.

Bombardier also said the program is still on track:
http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-ne...-test-program-plan-bombardier-says



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineQuantos From Canada, joined Jan 2013, 160 posts, RR: 0
Reply 142, posted (10 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 32013 times:

There we go   That's two flights in two days, then? They're picking up the pace, then!

User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2804 posts, RR: 59
Reply 143, posted (10 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 31977 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 141):
FTV1 is airborne again.

Yup, as BBA501 so add a filter for BBA in Flightradar as well. I have the following filters in FR24:

AIB
BBD
BBA

It covers the Airbus and Bombardiers test aircraft.



Non French in France
User currently offlinePaolo92 From Italy, joined Oct 2007, 261 posts, RR: 0
Reply 144, posted (10 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 31639 times:

FTV1 landed back in YMX after a 2hr flight.
Apparently it could not retract the static pressure trailing tail cone for landing.



Each evening, stars come out their daylight hiding places... But one of those, will be my wingtip, passing over...
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11674 posts, RR: 33
Reply 145, posted (10 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 31342 times:

Picture of the 6th flight:


Returning After CSeries Sixth Flight - Bombardier FTV1 by Sylvain Faust, on Flickr



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinePaolo92 From Italy, joined Oct 2007, 261 posts, RR: 0
Reply 146, posted (10 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 30554 times:

New video from Bombardier: Bombardier St-Laurent Manufacturing Center


Each evening, stars come out their daylight hiding places... But one of those, will be my wingtip, passing over...
User currently offlineRuscoe From Australia, joined Aug 1999, 1566 posts, RR: 2
Reply 147, posted (10 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 30247 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 23):
I think it is time for some aviation Journalist to ask BBD why things are progressing so slowly

It could very well be money/cash flow v costs, that is putting a lid on things.

Over the years, I have heard several times that this is the most expensive time of all; ie testing and ramping up production at the same time.

Ruscoe


User currently offlineYYZYYT From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 955 posts, RR: 0
Reply 148, posted (10 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 30023 times:

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 147):
It could very well be money/cash flow v costs, that is putting a lid on things.

Unlikely - BBD as a whole is flush with cash (Q3 statement reports $4 billion in short term capital, $2.6 B in cash):

http://ir.bombardier.com/modules/mis...ier-QuarterlyReport-Q3-2013-en.pdf


User currently offlinemad99 From Spain, joined Mar 2012, 561 posts, RR: 0
Reply 149, posted (10 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 29736 times:

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 148):
BBD as a whole is flush with cash

not true
try getting paid!


User currently offlinelarshjort From Denmark, joined Dec 2007, 1471 posts, RR: 0
Reply 150, posted (10 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 29607 times:

Quoting mad99 (Reply 149):
not true
try getting paid!

That's not the same as the company not having money.

/Lars



139, 306, 319, 320, 321, 332, 34A, AN2, AT4, AT5, AT7, 733, 735, 73G, 738, 739, 146, AR1, BH2, CN1, CR2, DH1, DH3, DH4,
User currently offlinemad99 From Spain, joined Mar 2012, 561 posts, RR: 0
Reply 151, posted (10 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 29511 times:

Quoting larshjort (Reply 150):
That's not the same as the company not having money.

not the same but i think you'll find when they do not have cash the payments come late


User currently offlineYYZYYT From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 955 posts, RR: 0
Reply 152, posted (10 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 29963 times:

Quoting mad99 (Reply 149):
not true
try getting paid!
Quoting mad99 (Reply 151):
not the same but i think you'll find when they do not have cash the payments come late

Sure... sometimes. But I also deal with many corporations (public, private) who are in strong financial positions, but are painfully slow to pay


but BBD? Is there any issue re BBD failing to pay suppliers (or anyone)?

BBD is a publically traded company, and when they report a good quarter (and issue dividends), It would be surprising at the very least if it turns ut that management is hiding some financial issues...


User currently offlineplanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6186 posts, RR: 34
Reply 153, posted (10 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 29591 times:

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 152):
but BBD? Is there any issue re BBD failing to pay suppliers (or anyone)?

BBD is a publically traded company, and when they report a good quarter (and issue dividends), It would be surprising at the very least if it turns ut that management is hiding some financial issues...

If you recall, BBD was conserving cash 11 months ago, going so far as to limit travel. And, more recently, the sale of FlexJet was commented on in business news that it was in part a move to bolster BBD's cash position because of the CSeries' development costs and future cash flow uncertainty.



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlineytz From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 1999 posts, RR: 24
Reply 154, posted (10 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 29394 times:

Quoting planemaker (Reply 153):
If you recall, BBD was conserving cash 11 months ago, going so far as to limit travel. And, more recently, the sale of FlexJet was commented on in business news that it was in part a move to bolster BBD's cash position because of the CSeries' development costs and future cash flow uncertainty.

Yes. But has there been any evidence of late payments to suppliers?

Evidence.

Not conjecture. As has been put forward. It's a serious allegation to suggest that a publicly traded company is not paying its suppliers on time.


User currently offlineplanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6186 posts, RR: 34
Reply 155, posted (10 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 29393 times:

Quoting ytz (Reply 154):
Yes. But has there been any evidence of late payments to suppliers?

I just quickly quoted the last post on this topic of "cash" when I should have quoted:



Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 147):
It could very well be money/cash flow v costs, that is putting a lid on things.

Over the years, I have heard several times that this is the most expensive time of all; ie testing and ramping up production at the same time.

However, regarding your post, many businesses as a matter of due course stretch out their A/Ps... even when the cash is in the bank, for obvious reasons. It isn't a "serious allegation " at all.



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlinePaolo92 From Italy, joined Oct 2007, 261 posts, RR: 0
Reply 156, posted (10 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 27746 times:

Luxair whittles down fleet wish-list to CSeries, E-Jet E2s and MRJs

Quote:
Luxair (LG, Luxembourg) is set to decide on its fleet renewal strategy by mid-2014 Air Transport World reports. According to ATW's report, the regional carrier has whittled its list down to the Bombardier (BBA, Montréal Trudeau) Dash 8-400 and CSeries, the Embraer (São José dos Campos) E-Jet E2 and the Mitsubishi (Tokyo Haneda) MRJ90. Luxair's fleet currently consists of six Dash 8-400s and two B737-800s all of which collectively average 1.9 years of age. The airline's older fleet consists of three B737-700s (averaging 9.5 years) and six ERJ-145s which are 13.6 years of age according to ch-aviation fleet data.

It was already mentioned in one of the previous threads that Luxair could be one of the possible customers for the CSeries, now they appear to be officially interested.



Each evening, stars come out their daylight hiding places... But one of those, will be my wingtip, passing over...
User currently offlineMANYUL From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2013, 53 posts, RR: 0
Reply 157, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 26742 times:

FTV2 to be handed over to the test centre by Monday.

Quoting Paolo92 (Reply 156):
Luxair whittles down fleet wish-list to CSeries, E-Jet E2s and MRJs

With LH's investment in Luxair, and their current order for LX, I wouldn't be surprised to see them lean more towards the c-series


User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4737 posts, RR: 39
Reply 158, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 26625 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting MANYUL (Reply 157):
FTV2 to be handed over to the test centre by Monday.

That is good news to hear.   Now let the test team get it up in the air asap.   


User currently offlinegolfradio From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 766 posts, RR: 2
Reply 159, posted (10 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 26030 times:

I came across an article which is behind a paywall ...

http://atwonline.com/airframes/swiss-international-air-lines-prepares-bombardier-cseries-delivery-delay

Does any one here have a subscription and can enlighten us?

All of LX's orders are for the CS100. Are we now looking at a delay beyond the already anticipated 2015 Q1? So far the pace has been not very promising.


User currently offlinePaolo92 From Italy, joined Oct 2007, 261 posts, RR: 0
Reply 160, posted (10 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 25753 times:

Quoting golfradio (Reply 159):

The article actually says that Swiss plans to receive their first CS100 in Q1 2015 instead of the originally (2009) planned H2 2014.
In case of additional delay the first delivery could skip to Q2 2015, according to ATW.

The actual order will probably be split between CS100 and CS300, Swiss CEO Harry Hohmeister disclosed to the media earlier this year.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...le-for-bombardier-cseries-jet.html

Quote:
[...]
Swiss will operate at least 10 CS100s, the smaller version due to fly for the first time this month, and will also take the larger CS300 as part of its 30-jet order. The exact mix remains to be decided, Hohmeister said.
[...]
Hohmeister said he’s satisfied with the progress that Bombardier is making with the new plane and expects no further delays beyond those already incurred. The CS100, seating about 120, should enter service at Swiss in 2015, while the CS300 would follow about a year later, he said at the International Air Transport Association annual general meeting.

In the linked article Mr. Hohmeister also says that a further stretched version of the CSeries could fit in his airline as an A320 replacement.



Each evening, stars come out their daylight hiding places... But one of those, will be my wingtip, passing over...
User currently offlinegolfradio From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 766 posts, RR: 2
Reply 161, posted (10 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 25676 times:

Quoting Paolo92 (Reply 160):

Thanks Paolo. I was fearing that BBD could have privately advised customers of a further delay.


User currently offlinePaolo92 From Italy, joined Oct 2007, 261 posts, RR: 0
Reply 162, posted (10 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 25445 times:

FTV1 completed flight number 7 earlier.
circa 1 hour flight, flying around 13000ft at 250kt




[Edited 2013-11-15 13:46:48]


Each evening, stars come out their daylight hiding places... But one of those, will be my wingtip, passing over...
User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5465 posts, RR: 30
Reply 163, posted (10 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 25187 times:

Quoting Paolo92 (Reply 162):

Every flight is good, even the short ones...but it sure would be nice to see that thing crack the 13k level. Still...work seems to be progressing full speed ahead on the other flight test vehicles and since it seems the lack of flight envelope exploration is a flight software thing, (or things), upgrades shouldn't slow down production.



What the...?
User currently offlinePaolo92 From Italy, joined Oct 2007, 261 posts, RR: 0
Reply 164, posted (10 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 24860 times:

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 163):

Well, up to now, FTV1 has reached a maximum of 25k in altitude and circa 425kt (0,6 mach) in speed.
It seems that now they're trying the FBW normal mode in this short flights.



Each evening, stars come out their daylight hiding places... But one of those, will be my wingtip, passing over...
User currently offlinesirtoby From Germany, joined Nov 2007, 376 posts, RR: 22
Reply 165, posted (10 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 24763 times:

If my information is correct, yesterdays flight should have been the normal flight checkout flight.

User currently offlineYxwatcherMKE From United States of America, joined May 2007, 1003 posts, RR: 2
Reply 166, posted (10 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 24163 times:

Quoting sirtoby (Reply 165):
If my information is correct, yesterdays flight should have been the normal flight checkout flight.

If that is true, and it check out okay, we should start seeing longer, faster and higher flights soon.
Yes?   



I miss the 60's & 70's when you felt like a guest on the plane not cattle like today
User currently offlinePaolo92 From Italy, joined Oct 2007, 261 posts, RR: 0
Reply 167, posted (10 months 6 days ago) and read 24067 times:

New CSeries program update video by Rob Dewar:
http://youtu.be/3O_QDOXrjEs

Some points from the update:
- Over 190 hours of flight and ground tests completed up to now
- According to Dewar, ground testing is the real testing, flights are basically only for validation
- FTV1 already experienced the first snow in Mirabel, they will deploy the flight testing fleet to Wichita to cope with the weather
- up to now only direct-mode flights, they will increase the flight envelope protections gradually, up to normal-mode; then they're gonna fly "faster, farther, higher"
- they will continue to expand the flight envelope with the next flights



Each evening, stars come out their daylight hiding places... But one of those, will be my wingtip, passing over...
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13120 posts, RR: 100
Reply 168, posted (10 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 23169 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I hope we are now in normal mode.

Quoting Paolo92 (Reply 167):
- According to Dewar, ground testing is the real testing, flights are basically only for validation

After a decade in flight testing and some time in system center labs, I would argue otherwise. 98% of the faults are found and fixed on the ground. But that last 2% are tough to find, tough to understand, and tougher to solve without compromising the mission. As someone who served in the trenches, I would take this is marketing talk.

For example, flutter is truly only solved in flight. Much of the rest is just Validation. But flight testing can delay a program a year. Not the flight testing per se, but the problems that must be resolved when found.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11674 posts, RR: 33
Reply 169, posted (10 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 22669 times:

Qatar Says Bombardier CSeries Lacks Flight Tests as Delay Bites:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-1...s-flight-tests-as-delay-bites.html



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineplanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6186 posts, RR: 34
Reply 170, posted (10 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 22438 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 168):
As someone who served in the trenches, I would take this is marketing talk.

  

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 169):
Qatar Says Bombardier CSeries Lacks Flight Tests as Delay Bites:

There is no delay...  
Quote:
Bombardier CEO says CSeries on track despite only four test flights in six weeks
...
The Canadian Press – Thu, 31 Oct, 2013
Chief executive Pierre Beaudoin assured analysts on a conference call that the CSeries testing is "happening exactly as predicted."

And if you go a bit further back...

Quote:
Bombardier CSeries tests confirm 2013 entry into service
...
ATW Plus - Apr. 25, 2012
Bombardier announced Wednesday that the CSeries aircraft is on track for a late 2013 entry into service.



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4737 posts, RR: 39
Reply 171, posted (10 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 22337 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 168):
I hope we are now in normal mode.

That would be nice. The program could use some good news and some new orders. I hope they will get them, and soon.


User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2804 posts, RR: 59
Reply 172, posted (10 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 22251 times:

I am on record for liking the Cseries (nice design with it seems every decision gotten right) and for wishing BBD all the best for bringing it to market, I am therefore not bashing when I make a few observations:

- R Dewar talks about BBDs unique level of ground testing and that therefore the lack of flying is nothing to worry about. The reality is that it might be a new level of integrated ground testing for BBD but it is at best similar to what Boeing and Airbus has done on the 787 and 350, so this is standard practice and nothing special. It should have advanced much more before first flight.

- The very slow progress with the flight testing where they are not past direct mode and FL250 and M 0.6 after 2 months (something the A350 passed on the first day !!! ) shows the low level of maturity of the program when the first flight was done. It was a flight IMO to get the monkey of their back  . They had not even got the FBW prepared over the direct "electrical cable" mode, there is quite some work to do to reach the level of the 787 and 350 test programs when they started, let alone 2 months into the programs.

- The 787 had some problems found during flight testing, the 350 is so far void of things more then some tweaking. Let's hope BBD is saved from major negative findings and may they take their time to get to a full envelope, we don't want any big setbacks because of a rush job   , we just have to calm down and accept that they are not where we all think they are, normal mode and full height and speed will take some time yet it seems.

It will be a fine aircraft eventually, I can't find one thing wrong in their base architecture  Wow! , keep it up BBD, there is room for 3 in the 150 pax hornet nest  .

[Edited 2013-11-18 11:34:29]


Non French in France