Sndp From Belgium, joined Feb 2000, 553 posts, RR: 2 Posted (12 years 7 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3801 times:
After the end of the social negotiations at Sabena, the day before yesterday, the pilots announced yesterday they did not agree with the plan and rejected it completely. They announced social actions as from 6am Belgian Time this morning, and indeed, up untill now, already 9 flights had to be canceled due to a strike.
C. Müller announced yesterday that any social action at this moment, would kill Sabena. His spokesman also said that the actions could be a great danger to the company. He also mentioned that the managament was still waiting for the pilots to come to talk to them, though they had not heard anything from them yet.
The conflict between the pilots and the management is a very severe one, and a solution is not in sight. Both parties accuse each other from the fact that they do not want to talk to each other and that they do not use the given opportunities to negotiate.
If the pilots are right by claiming that this Buiness Plan will kill Sabena, it may be wiser for them to give it a chance and see what happens. If they are right, they will not be blamed. With their actions, however, they will be accused of being the cause of the end of Sabena, not the business plan, as they think.
According to me, they should give the Business Plan a chance, as it is at this moment the only chance of survival for Sabena.
Ceilidh From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (12 years 7 months 1 day ago) and read 3395 times:
Unfortunately for the sane pilots like Sab20 and Sndp that care about their company and want it to keep flying, the lunatics still keep trying to run the asylum. Well, they got their wish. If they want it closed down, I'm certain that's what's going to happen.
And the result will be that those people identified as BeCA militants have been blacklisted around the European airlines - so they will find it impossible to get another flying job on the same sort of equipment and pay that they are at SN. After all, who wants to employ someone whose goal in life seems to be to try and mount a coup d'etat within the company by dictating to management; and to force the company into bankruptcy?
Absolute insanity - and as a result of their selfishness, 9000 people will be out of wok - plus goodness knows how many suppliers' employees. I hope BeCA's really poud of itself.
Jwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10213 posts, RR: 19
Reply 4, posted (12 years 7 months 1 day ago) and read 3375 times:
problem is, union membership can not be a reason to be passed over for a job.
Any of them that do get passed over for a job for any reason will just go to court claiming it was because they are a unionmember demanding to be taken on anyway.
Most judges will give in to them.
Avion2002 From Belgium, joined Jun 2001, 9 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (12 years 7 months 1 day ago) and read 3378 times:
This morning UseNet (Aviation Ins.) reported that the Belgian authorities assess the possibility to limit the licence coverage of Belgian pilots. This would mean that licences be (temporarily ?) suspended. This is related to the alternative insurance mechanism for third party risks, now taken over by the Belgian state.
Any confirmation on this ?
Sab12 From Belgium, joined Sep 2001, 96 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (12 years 7 months 23 hours ago) and read 3339 times:
Striking now is just plain stupid, and never has there been a worse time then this.
Again we punish the people who pay our salary, again we will push people to other airlines!!
Is this the way we want to make Sabena profitable????
Well then mullers plan is better!
D-AQUI From Germany, joined Sep 2001, 199 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (12 years 7 months 22 hours ago) and read 3317 times:
As I have noted in another forum I am a frequent traveller with Sabena, mostly on the route from Brussels to Strasbourg.
I shall be brief because I still hope that today's flight will not be affected.
The action of (some of?) Sabena's pilots for whom I still held a certain kind of understanding at this stage is simply unreasonable.
Personally as a passenger who wants to see his family on Friday I feel taken hostage by such action, although I am still in the comfortable position to swap to the car. But what I want to do is to fly, to experience the advantages of airtravel, i.e. saving time and getting there relaxed.
Travelling on Sabena has become unpredictable these days and maybe those pilots who are fuelling the disputes should think about that they are not only causing an immediate effect with losses caused by the action as such, they are furthermore diverting passengers to other airlines where there are alternatives.
I am off to Zaventem, for the next adventure...
LJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4367 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (12 years 7 months 21 hours ago) and read 3308 times:
Rik Daems has put it correctly in the TV show "De zevende dag" last Sunday when he said that at SN they're arguing about how the future will look like whereas they should take measures so that there is a future.
Looking at the arguments the pilots give they seem to forget (or they don't want to face the fact) that SN's survival depends on the goodwill two shareholders (SR and the Belgian State). Only they (the shareholders) decide on the fate of SN, and the shareholders only accept Muller's plan or something similar.
BTW You can blame SR, you can blame the Belgian State and you can blame Muller for the current problems but fact is that SN HAS serious liquidity problems. Face this fact and start working on how to get out of it. If you've done that, you can start blaming whoever you think you need to blame. But at this moment, SN needs both the Belgian State's and SR's goodwill to approve the capital increase. If SN doesn't get the EUR 430mio I think some creditors will call their loans (which means bankruptcy).
Ceilidh From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (12 years 7 months 21 hours ago) and read 3313 times:
Airbuspilot - if you or anyone else don't think that militants will be blacklisted, just ask any of the Australian pilots involved in the 1989 dispute what happened to their careers.
I am reliably informed that the names of the more militant BeCA people have already been circulated to airlines around Europe - try applying to say Ryanair and see how far you get!
As for your statement "do you really think that the BeCA would tka some of these risks if they wheren't damn sure about what they are saying?????" Laurens is spot on. Who cares whether they are right or not? That's like the Captain of the Titanic arguing whether the ship was hit by a rock or an iceberg - it's still sinking!
And as prophesised, BeCA will be the one that will be remembered as being the organisation that drove SN into collapse - not SR or the Belgian government.
Care to tell us on here what your non-pilot SN colleagues have been doing/saying to striking pilots?
Airbuspilot From Belgium, joined Apr 2000, 416 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (12 years 7 months 20 hours ago) and read 3305 times:
concerning Ryanair, I am not blacklisted there, ican give you proof of that.
What we have been called, well, those are words that could come out of your mouth...low level!
I could not care less what people are calling me, everybody has the right to an opinion and I have mine...
I only find it very sorry for the pax and I would like to apologise to them. That is he only group of people who have a right to make those statements. All the others are saving their own butts, the only ones with a personnal opinion and the balls to come up for that are the pilots and some other categories within the personnel!!!
Last minute news, although details still missing, a belgian consultancy bureau, under the leading of a specefic politic party, has come up with an alternative, all belgian, plan. This is being looked at right now so more info to come....
Avion2002 From Belgium, joined Jun 2001, 9 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (12 years 7 months 19 hours ago) and read 3277 times:
To Flying Belgian :
A "no"-vote means a vote against the Mueller plan, but also a no against a plan that has been approved by the Belgian State and Swissair.
None of these parties has an alternative option.
Under the current EU-competion rules, there is no such thing as state aid. The State can not put any single penny into Sabena, unless a private investor puts the equivalent capital in the company. With the strike that is going on now, which private investor would be so stupid to invest in a company, whose customers are terrorized every other week by pilots who have apparently missed the millenium change ?
A "no" note leads to bankrupcy.
If you hold a secret file of a take-over ... well, I'm interested to listen ...
Flying Belgian From Belgium, joined Jun 2001, 2389 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (12 years 7 months 19 hours ago) and read 3272 times:
I will vote no because this plan brings a solution for 3 more months (at best) and no solutions for the long term. This plan is tailor made to Muller's ambitions and to the Belgian Government's scare (being responsible for the loss of 12000 jobs).
Anyway, I am not worry as it is sure that the majority of the employees will vote no.
Cfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (12 years 7 months 18 hours ago) and read 3239 times:
Hey guys, I've figured this out.
All the BeCA guys who are proposing to block the restructuring got together a few months ago and short-sold as many Sabena shares as they could (there are a few small shareholders, it seems, apart from the State and SR), and hope to drive the company to bankruptcy and rake in the profits while covering the position! Kinda like what Bin Ladin and his associates did with the Insurance and Airline industries. Just another form of blackmail/terrorism.
Dutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 22, posted (12 years 7 months 18 hours ago) and read 3228 times:
With almost every airline in the world facing an uncertain future at this moment, the strike by the Sabena pilots does not seem prudent at this time; the pilots and other employees at SN have been through hell, and their frustration and anger is understandable, but the strike may accelertate the end of Sabena. Look at the facts, airliners are flying empty, over 100,000 jobs in the airline industry have been lost in a matter of days, airlines are rushing to cut their schedules and park their aircraft, the horror of 11 Sept combined with an already difficult world economy and overcapcity are killing the airlines, and part owner Swissair is considering bankruptcy itself at the moment; how can a strike at SN at this moment accomplish any good?
Teva From France, joined Jan 2001, 1869 posts, RR: 16
Reply 23, posted (12 years 7 months 18 hours ago) and read 3222 times:
USA is a free country, as the constitution guaranties the right to have guns.
Then, what do you think about the following idea??
The airlines have to give a gun to each passenger over 5years old.
Then, the terrorist will be ... terrorized to fly with any US airline
Ecoute les orgues, Elles jouent pour toi...C'est le requiem pour un con