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A350 Prototypes And Production Thread Part 14  
User currently offlineiowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4423 posts, RR: 6
Posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 74331 times:
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Due to length here is part 14.

Previous thread: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 13 (by jetblueguy22 Aug 15 2013 in Civil Aviation)

262 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTheRedBaron From Mexico, joined Mar 2005, 2264 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 74237 times:

Keeping the topic on previous thread... I bet Airbus will make another assembly line to pump up the a350 production/delivery. Availability goes a long way when putting orders for Aircraft fleets, and the 777X will be a formidable adversary, it would be silly for Airbus to keep production constrained.

TRB



The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
User currently offlineStTim From UK - England, joined Aug 2013, 811 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 74182 times:

I think for Airbus having another final assembly line is probably not the issue. The problems will start way back in the supply chain. The other factor is that to support current plans they are already vastly increasing the utilisation of the Beluga fleet. Can it be pushed further or will Airbus also need to bring forward Beluga 2?

User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12225 posts, RR: 34
Reply 3, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 74062 times:

Planting a new building is the easy part, the supply chain must be able to meet the demand too.

And than we have the Beluga ... the current fleet utilization is 5000 flight hours per year which will be doubled to 10000 flight hours in 2017, the maximum it can handle.

http://oi41.tinypic.com/2132dd0.jpg

http://oi39.tinypic.com/vgmpgz.jpg

Not only A350 demand will rise, Airbus is also looking at ways to increase A320 production beyond the current rate of 42 per month at the end of the decade. Introducing an A330 based Beluga is a must have, it would be able to carry a pair of A350 wings for example.

http://oi43.tinypic.com/nzm69y.jpg

[Edited 2013-10-13 12:04:50]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineap305 From India, joined Jan 2000, 588 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 73956 times:

Bregier has given an interview to a German publication...

http://www.welt.de/print/wams/wirtsc...-werden-wir-in-Fuehrung-gehen.html

From what I understood through Google translate, a production increase seems far from certain. He seems to suggest it's better to not to increase now and reduce at a later date (although I am not sure he's specifically referring to the a350). Bregier also suggests that you have to wait till 2020 if you order now.

[Edited 2013-10-13 12:19:03]

User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12225 posts, RR: 34
Reply 5, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 73803 times:

He talks about the production rate in general. The higher you increase the rate, the more you'll have to sell per year to maintain the rate in the long term. If you fail, you'll have the decrease the production rate again once the backlog is down. Learned from the past, those production rate ups and downs are very expensive. Hence they prefer a stable production rate.


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4813 posts, RR: 40
Reply 6, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 73640 times:
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Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 3):
Planting a new building is the easy part, the supply chain must be able to meet the demand too.

That would be the greater challenge indeed if they will up the production rate further as currently planned. It is far from easy, but doable.  . But the demand must be there for a long time to justify further large investments on production capacity.


User currently offlineBoeingVista From Australia, joined Jan 2009, 1581 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 72107 times:

Quoting StTim (Reply 2):
Can it be pushed further or will Airbus also need to bring forward Beluga 2?

Why not just build a spare Beluga? The limited amount of Beluga's available is surly a project risk for all Airbus aircraft production, if they loose one through misshap it would cause chaos to production schedules.



BV
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13301 posts, RR: 100
Reply 8, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 71812 times:
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Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 5):
Learned from the past, those production rate ups and downs are very expensive. Hence they prefer a stable production rate.

Agreed. But if Airbus doens't increase the production rate, then Boeing will. Customers will receive some aircraft in the time frame of interest. This is the 'prisoner's dilemma,' where if both constrain output, both will do better. The first to ramp up production will do best.  
Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 7):
Why not just build a spare Beluga?

That was my thought. Its time to consider building a number off of the A330.    A little late for 2017 delivery date, but one could be in service by 2018 or 2019.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineBoeingVista From Australia, joined Jan 2009, 1581 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 70813 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 8):
That was my thought. Its time to consider building a number off of the A330. A little late for 2017 delivery date, but one could be in service by 2018 or 2019.

Lightsaber

They definatly need to go A330 at some point but if they dusted off the A300-600 Beluga plans they could knock one up within a year, the basic airframe could be purchased for scrap value I would think.



BV
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12225 posts, RR: 34
Reply 10, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 70583 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 8):
Agreed. But if Airbus doens't increase the production rate, then Boeing will. Customers will receive some aircraft in the time frame of interest. This is the 'prisoner's dilemma,' where if both constrain output, both will do better. The first to ramp up production will do best.

Agreed, they'll have to find the sweet spot between market demand and a stable production rate.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7786 posts, RR: 18
Reply 11, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 70193 times:

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 1):
Keeping the topic on previous thread... I bet Airbus will make another assembly line to pump up the a350 production/delivery. Availability goes a long way when putting orders for Aircraft fleets, and the 777X will be a formidable adversary, it would be silly for Airbus to keep production constrained.

Just a thought: Could they build a line in Mobile?



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4813 posts, RR: 40
Reply 12, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 69577 times:
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Quoting PHX787 (Reply 11):
Just a thought: Could they build a line in Mobile?

Of course they can. But the FAL capacity, and where they are located, is the "small problem" compared to getting the complete supply chain ready for un upped production rate for the A350. Especially quality issues and financial issues play a strong role here.


User currently offlineaviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 635 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 69513 times:

Mobile is quite far away for Beluga's... (current and projected A330-200 based...
Can be ship in maybe like A380 parts...


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31130 posts, RR: 85
Reply 14, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 69371 times:
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The KC-45 FAL was going to be in Mobile and Airbus was considering moving A330-200F and A330MRTT production there, as well, to free up TLS to pump out more passenger A330s and the plan was to use sea shipping for parts delivery.

User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2804 posts, RR: 59
Reply 15, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 68394 times:

Tom Enders has spoken in Australia and commented on the A350. He is full of confidence (from an Airinsight article about the 350 program):

http://airinsight.com/2013/10/14/imp...source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

Also today, in Sydney, EADS CEO Tom Enders spoke at Australia’s National Aviation Press Club: “We are on track to deliver the first aircraft at the end of 2014. It’s going to be a great aircraft.” He went on to say “The 350 is a bit behind the 787 in terms of schedule,” and noted that 750 A350s have been sold. “I was quite pleased that we were trailing the 787 because by taking our time we could learn some of the lessons from that project,” he said.

By saying "it is going to be a great aircraft" he is adding to he's comments of before that testing "is going very, very well". He can't say like that unless the performance data is on spec or better...

[Edited 2013-10-14 07:01:51]


Non French in France
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12225 posts, RR: 34
Reply 16, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 68321 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 15):
Tom Enders has spoken in Australia and commented on the A350. He is full of confidence (from an Airinsight article about the 350 program):

  

Now the next big thing to watch is MSN2, the first A350 with a real cabin and a revised livery. It's now outside at P18, MSN3 flew 11 weeks (2.75 months) after roll out to P18 thus MSN2 should join the test fleet in the middle of January (maybe the 14th  ).



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinetrent900 From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 533 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 68152 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 16):
Now the next big thing to watch is MSN2, the first A350 with a real cabin and a revised livery. It's now outside at P18, MSN3 flew 11 weeks (2.75 months) after roll out to P18 thus MSN2 should join the test fleet in the middle of January (maybe the 14th ).

Do you think MSN2 will take this length of time to prep before joining the test fleet? I understand a cabin has to be installed, but will this take the same amount of time as installing and setting up all the test instrumentation MSN1 & 3 have?

D.

P.S Maybe the cabin has already been installed. Does anyone know?


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12225 posts, RR: 34
Reply 18, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 68094 times:

Quoting trent900 (Reply 17):
Do you think MSN2 will take this length of time to prep before joining the test fleet? I understand a cabin has to be installed, but will this take the same amount of time as installing and setting up all the test instrumentation MSN1 & 3 have?

The cabin was installed in P30. The A350 cabin can be installed simultaneous with the indoor ground tests.

Have a look how it works:
http://youtu.be/W0jlu0ghNIg



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineStTim From UK - England, joined Aug 2013, 811 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 68068 times:

One would hope that the timings for the non cabin install stations will be reducing as Airbus learn the lessons from the previous planes. This seems to be the case so far.

I know that the business and first seats are often installed late in the process due to cost issues so perhaps that will take some of the time associated with the instrument load. This will of course be a first fit and so I expect airbus to take their time and learn how they can go quicker next time.


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12225 posts, RR: 34
Reply 20, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 67994 times:

Quoting StTim (Reply 19):
I know that the business and first seats are often installed late in the process due to cost issues so perhaps that will take some of the time associated with the instrument load.

Expensive items like business class seats, first class seats and engines will eventually be installed as late as possible in P20 to avoid huge stock costs.

But the prototypes may differ a bit in this process. It's possible the business and first class seats have been installed in P30 already, or maybe they will be installed in P20 later, or in C63 together with the engines.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinetrent900 From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 533 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 67958 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 18):
The cabin was installed in P30. The A350 cabin can be installed simultaneous with the indoor ground tests.

Have a look how it works:
http://youtu.be/W0jlu0ghNIg



Thanks for that Karel, don't know how I missed that one! Excellent animation.

In the mean time are we sticking to the 11 weeks from the start of P18?

D.


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12225 posts, RR: 34
Reply 22, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 67942 times:

Quoting trent900 (Reply 21):
In the mean time are we sticking to the 11 weeks from the start of P18?

We do    And the Airbus schedule also shows first flight in January:

http://oi44.tinypic.com/5d8fnb.jpg



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinemacc From Austria, joined Nov 2004, 1060 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 67906 times:

Quoting aviaponcho (Reply 13):
Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 18):
The cabin was installed in P30. The A350 cabin can be installed simultaneous with the indoor ground tests.

cool video, thanks!
When do you expect her to fly?



I exchanged political frustration with sexual boredom. better spoil a girl than the world
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12225 posts, RR: 34
Reply 24, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 67881 times:

Quoting macc (Reply 23):
When do you expect her to fly?

January 2014, see schedule above  



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4813 posts, RR: 40
Reply 25, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 67855 times:
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Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 24):
January 2014, see schedule above  

To keep fully in sync with MSN001 & MSN003 it should fly on January 14th, 2014.  . Great video btw.


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12225 posts, RR: 34
Reply 26, posted (1 year 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 66896 times:

The A350 blog claims Airbus will unveil the new livery on MSN2 in the coming weeks. It also says the following:

Quote:
In the pictures currently available, the “A350” words are painted in white letters in the Vertical Tail and will be highlighted on a black background. The vertical tail plane for MSN2 has been “protected” after been painted and until the complete aircraft goes to the paint shop, we will not be able to watch the new livery. The wing and the horizontal tail will remain in grey-white color as for the other prototypes and the new black painting scheme will probably be applied to the half of the fuselage, being the rear part of the fuselage in black and more & more white until arriving to the nose fuselage that will be in the “standard” white.

Winglets, one of the identity brand of the aircraft will probably be painted in this “carbon-fiber” black. And the nose fuselage will be identical than the other prototypes.

The black painting would simulate carbon fiber structure as shown in this picture:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-sXLymn6mtfI/Ubzb-475XQI/AAAAAAAAFQ8/ByWgJhxYcbo/s1600/image.jpg

Last but not least, it says MSN2 will be the first A350 joining the A330s in P20.

http://www.bloga350.blogspot.nl/2013...-livery-for-msn2-first-flight.html



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4813 posts, RR: 40
Reply 27, posted (1 year 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 67493 times:
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Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 26):
The black painting would simulate carbon fiber structure as shown in this picture:

That could give a very nice effect. But let's wait and see how it really looks after MSN002 has left the paint shop.


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12225 posts, RR: 34
Reply 28, posted (1 year 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 67436 times:

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 27):
That could give a very nice effect. But let's wait and see how it really looks after MSN002 has left the paint shop.

Carbon effects are nice as long as you don't use too much of it.

I wonder if Airbus will really unveil it in the coming weeks as the blog claims. I think they will town her from paint to P20 during the night.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12225 posts, RR: 34
Reply 29, posted (1 year 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 66612 times:

MSN5 will be the first A350 with nickel-cadmium batteries.

http://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-...euxieme-a350-d-essai-d-airbus.html



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2694 posts, RR: 1
Reply 30, posted (1 year 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 66541 times:

...and according to TLS local newspaper La Depeche, citing an Airbus internal memo, MSN4 will be painted in Qatar livery in the front fuselage, while the rear fuselage will sport the Airbus livery (don't ask me how they will combine those two, the article is not any more specific than that)

link in French:
http://www.ladepeche.fr/article/2013...50-la-peinture-qui-fait-jaser.html


User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4813 posts, RR: 40
Reply 31, posted (1 year 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 66457 times:
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Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 29):
MSN5 will be the first A350 with nickel-cadmium batteries.

I am curious when they will switch back to Lithium-Ion batteries again.   Maybe in 1-2 years?


User currently offlineHeavierthanair From Switzerland, joined Oct 2000, 798 posts, RR: 0
Reply 32, posted (1 year 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 66507 times:

G´day

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 29):
MSN5 will be the first A350 with nickel-cadmium batteries.

http://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-...euxieme-a350-d-essai-d-airbus.html

Someone please send a more recent picture of the A 350 to La Tribune. The picture they show in the article is the warmed over A 330 iteration of the A 350, that makes me question how dated their article is   


Cheers

Peter



"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." (Albert Einstein, 1879
User currently offlinestarbucks From Netherlands, joined Feb 2013, 753 posts, RR: 6
Reply 33, posted (1 year 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 66382 times:

Quoting r2rho (Reply 30):
(don't ask me how they will combine those two, the article is not any more specific than that)

Two possibilities I can think of:

1. The normal "eurowhite" Airbus livery with Airbus tail and the (red) Qatar titles on the front.
2. A Airbus/Qatar hybrid livery like this old KLM/Northwest: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:No...M_DC-10_hybrid_livery_Spijkers.jpg



A350 logbook: http://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AlVgPnmHLOovdFdzbVlyQzhYNDhCb1VFN1RkYXkwV3c&output=html
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12225 posts, RR: 34
Reply 34, posted (1 year 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 66430 times:

Might be something similar to this:


380 004 F WWDD Airbus A380 861 Prototype Lufthansa by bep0503, on Flickr



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12225 posts, RR: 34
Reply 35, posted (1 year 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 66185 times:

Here's another example:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Sam Chui



[Edited 2013-10-17 05:24:14]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinestarbucks From Netherlands, joined Feb 2013, 753 posts, RR: 6
Reply 36, posted (1 year 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 66027 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 35):
Here's another example:

That's what I meant... Airbus eurowhite with Qatar titles



A350 logbook: http://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AlVgPnmHLOovdFdzbVlyQzhYNDhCb1VFN1RkYXkwV3c&output=html
User currently offlinezkojq From New Zealand, joined Sep 2011, 1278 posts, RR: 1
Reply 37, posted (1 year 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 65835 times:

Quoting StTim (Reply 2):
Can it be pushed further or will Airbus also need to bring forward Beluga 2?
Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 3):
Introducing an A330 based Beluga is a must have, it would be able to carry a pair of A350 wings for example.
Quoting aviaponcho (Reply 13):
Mobile is quite far away for Beluga's

How about an A340-500 based Beluga? Airbus will be receiving five of them from SQ over the coming years. An A340-500 'Beluga' would no doubt give better payload/range performance than an A330 'Beluga'. And the costs of certifying/developing it would presumably be similar?



Air New Zealand; first to fly the Boeing 787-9. ZK-NZE, NZ103 AKL-SYD, 2014/08/09. I was 83rd to board.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12225 posts, RR: 34
Reply 38, posted (1 year 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 65901 times:

Quoting zkojq (Reply 37):
How about an A340-500 based Beluga? Airbus will be receiving five of them from SQ over the coming years. An A340-500 'Beluga' would no doubt give better payload/range performance than an A330 'Beluga'. And the costs of certifying/developing it would presumably be similar?

An A340-500/600 based Beluga does not meet all requirements.

http://oi39.tinypic.com/2rr1ac3.jpg

[Edited 2013-10-17 07:16:40]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4813 posts, RR: 40
Reply 39, posted (1 year 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 65544 times:
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Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 38):
An A340-500/600 based Beluga does not meet all requirements.

I have never seen that graph before. Very enlightening to see the outcome. Good post!


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12225 posts, RR: 34
Reply 40, posted (1 year 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 65030 times:

Airchive.com will travel to TLS next Monday for an update on the A350 program. Expect Tweet updates and photos.

http://twitter.com/airchive/status/390917052581441536



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineap305 From India, joined Jan 2000, 588 posts, RR: 0
Reply 41, posted (1 year 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 64973 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 40):
Airchive.com will travel to TLS next Monday for an update on the A350 program. Expect Tweet updates and photos.

I suppose this will be a large media briefing rather than a solo visit by archive.com?... Should be an interesting week as the news and information starts rolling in. 

[Edited 2013-10-17 13:12:39]

User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12225 posts, RR: 34
Reply 42, posted (1 year 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 64861 times:

Quoting ap305 (Reply 41):
I suppose this will be a large media briefing rather than just a visit by archive.com?

Airchive travels a lot, perhaps he want to try the new A350 visitor tour   But a media briefing sounds more likely, I agree.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4813 posts, RR: 40
Reply 43, posted (1 year 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 64834 times:
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Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 42):
Airchive travels a lot, perhaps he want to try the new A350 visitor tour   But a media briefing sounds more likely, I agree.

It will for sure be interesting to see the tweets coming along.  


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12225 posts, RR: 34
Reply 44, posted (1 year 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 63670 times:

Tomorrows briefing starts at 8am local time.


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineBogi From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 45, posted (1 year 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 63283 times:

Quoting Airliners.net:
Welcome back banned!

You are now checked-in. Enjoy your flight with Airliners.net!

 

interesting news
http://www.aerotelegraph.com/qatar-airways-sponsert-prototyp-airbus-a350



[Edited 2013-10-20 08:14:42]

User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12225 posts, RR: 34
Reply 46, posted (1 year 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 62710 times:

Quoting Bogi (Reply 45):
interesting news

This was reported earlier, MSN4 will be partly painted in the Qatar livery.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12225 posts, RR: 34
Reply 47, posted (1 year 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 61686 times:

MSN6 delivery set for September 2014.

http://twitter.com/AvWeekFlottau/status/392335324334292992

[Edited 2013-10-21 10:09:32]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineaviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 635 posts, RR: 9
Reply 48, posted (1 year 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 61621 times:

That sounds very nice
Early september is end Q3 2014 ... in the middle of the H2 2014 windows...
We begin to know who was at toulouse today


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12225 posts, RR: 34
Reply 49, posted (1 year 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 61698 times:

> MSN5 FAL start has slipped a bit, first flight May 2014
> MSN4 first flight February 2014
> MSN2 first flight February 2014

http://airchive.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/20131021_114049.jpg

http://airchive.com/blog/2013/10/21/a350/

[Edited 2013-10-21 10:16:51]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineap305 From India, joined Jan 2000, 588 posts, RR: 0
Reply 50, posted (1 year 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 61536 times:

So no performance related news... I guess we have to just go by what Leahy stated at the market forecast briefing. The slight slippage is not so worrying...they are still sticking to the eis estimate and that's positive news.

[Edited 2013-10-21 10:32:32]

User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12225 posts, RR: 34
Reply 51, posted (1 year 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 61536 times:

Per Evrard, the A350 program is approaching its "most critical phase" as it enters the industrial ramp-up.

Quoting ap305 (Reply 50):
The slight slippage is not so worrying...they are still sticking to the eis estimate and that's positive news.

MSN5 is the certification standard a/c and will not fly much anyway.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2804 posts, RR: 59
Reply 52, posted (1 year 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 61824 times:

That they are showing a Sept 2014 delivery date means they don't expect any real rework. If so it is close to sensational, that the aircraft that engineering designed also can be delivered as such    , that must be close to a first for such a major program.

Edit:
It can also be so that Flottau interprets the charts a bit to optimistic, Evrard has now drawn anything after certification for not to give away to much. Lets see if anything was said on that matter as well.

[Edited 2013-10-21 11:04:09]


Non French in France
User currently offlineap305 From India, joined Jan 2000, 588 posts, RR: 0
Reply 53, posted (1 year 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 61786 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 52):
That they are showing a Sept 2014 delivery date means they don't expect any real rework. If so it is close to sensational, that the aircraft that engineering designed also can be delivered as such , that must be close to a first for such a major program.

Yes- This is one program where I suspect Airbus would delay and even do a major redesign if it does not meet specs...Its that important to their widebody strategy. All signs are now pointing towards a true winner.


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12225 posts, RR: 34
Reply 54, posted (1 year 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 61692 times:

There is a small miscommunication. Airbus expect to obtain type certificate by the end of August or the beginning of September 2014. MSN6 will be delivered about four weeks later, thus we're looking at a delivery in October 2014.


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2804 posts, RR: 59
Reply 55, posted (1 year 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 61605 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 54):
There is a small miscommunication. Airbus expect to obtain type certificate by the end of August or the beginning of September 2014. MSN6 will be delivered about four weeks later, thus we're looking at a delivery in October 2014.

That makes sense, given the very conservative communication strategy of Airbus re this program and that we see small production slippages a delivery to Qatar before mid autumn is not very realistic. I think Qatar is very pleased with this and more interested in the news that the aircraft's will be well born, meaning meeting spec and be reliable out of the chute.

[Edited 2013-10-21 11:32:38]


Non French in France
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12225 posts, RR: 34
Reply 56, posted (1 year 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 61491 times:

Airbus to Seek Certification of A350 With Lithium Batteries:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-1...f-a350-with-lithium-batteries.html

Also per Reuters:

> Airbus said four out of five A350 development aircraft have entered final assembly, with the fifth due at the end of the month
> Evrard said Airbus would decide in 2016 whether to increase production beyond its ultimate 10-a-month target

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/.../us-airbus-a-idUSBRE99K0SJ20131021

[Edited 2013-10-21 12:20:36]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12225 posts, RR: 34
Reply 57, posted (1 year 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 61120 times:

No, we should keep the production and flight testing separate.


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4813 posts, RR: 40
Reply 58, posted (1 year 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 60673 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 56):
Airbus to Seek Certification of A350 With Lithium Batteries:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-1....html

Good, I was waiting on the planned timeline for the lithium battery certification. Thanks for posting this link.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 58):
No, we should keep the production and flight testing separate.

I agree.


User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2804 posts, RR: 59
Reply 59, posted (1 year 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 60547 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 58):
No, we should keep the production and flight testing separate.

My meaning also, the flight test thread is full of post like "Took off at 06.53 UTC", this has a value for the flight time keepers but not for future study how the program evolved. The present structure is good, when program things get posted in the test thread they can also be cross-posted here if it makes sense.



Non French in France
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2804 posts, RR: 59
Reply 60, posted (1 year 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 60566 times:

There is some good info on the FAL expasion in:

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....e-xml/awx_10_21_2013_p0-628702.xml


"As Airbus is preparing for the industrial phase of the stretched A350-1000, the company is expanding capacity at its final assembly line in Toulouse. It is adding a third station 50 where the current station 59 is located, and station 59, which is used for sections preparation, will move to the other side of the final assembly line.

Currently, two of the four station 40s are used for wing assembly and two for testing, but once the second part of the final assembly line is completed, all four stations will be used for wing assembly. Further integration and outfitting work is taking place in the four station 30 bays, which are still under construction and will be used from the end of 2014. Airbus has decided to add a fifth station 30 by the end of 2015 to increase capacity. "

We should see the building of the new P59 soon then... and then the additional P30. Now where will all the P20s be? and they probably need to expand P18 as well.....



Non French in France
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 61, posted (1 year 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 60496 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 56):
Airbus to Seek Certification of A350 With Lithium Batteries:

"only after first using a standard nickel-cadmium model in a bid to secure faster approval"

So everything as they said before 


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12225 posts, RR: 34
Reply 62, posted (1 year 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 60477 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 61):
There is some good info on the FAL expasion in:

Excellent. This extra P30 will allow Airbus to assembly the A350-1000 prototypes without delaying or interfering the -900 production. Once the A350-1000 enters the market, it will be used to open extra delivery slots.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 61):
and they probably need to expand P18 as well.....

I believe the A330 already uses the flightline on the right-hand side of the FAL for P18 tests.

Also very important:

Quote:
Airbus will be at the production rate of one per month by the end of this year, and a rate of three per month by the end of 2014. Evrard points out that he expects strong demand for the -1000 variant and that Airbus now has the flexibility to mix production between the -900 and the -1000, up to around a 50/50 split.


[Edited 2013-10-22 03:05:37]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinestarbucks From Netherlands, joined Feb 2013, 753 posts, RR: 6
Reply 63, posted (1 year 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 60113 times:

Do we know where MSN2 is?

She was spotted on S18 on the 9th, almost 2 weeks ago. MSN3 spent 11 days at S18 if I recall correct?? Could MSN2 have moved to C63 (or maybe S20)??



A350 logbook: http://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AlVgPnmHLOovdFdzbVlyQzhYNDhCb1VFN1RkYXkwV3c&output=html
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12225 posts, RR: 34
Reply 64, posted (1 year 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 60072 times:

Quoting starbucks (Reply 64):
Do we know where MSN2 is?

I'll ask @TLSWatch if he could have a look again.

Quoting starbucks (Reply 64):
Could MSN2 have moved to C63 (or maybe S20)??

That's a tricky one. It might go to C63 so it cannot interrupt the A330s, but S20 has the platforms and tools for cabin furnishing.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineknoxibus From France, joined Aug 2007, 260 posts, RR: 23
Reply 65, posted (1 year 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 59963 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 65):
That's a tricky one. It might go to C63 so it cannot interrupt the A330s, but S20 has the platforms and tools for cabin furnishing.

  see highlighted in the quote.

Also, there quite a few mistakes in airchive and aviation week's feedbacks, too much info to grasp in one go I guess.



No matter what anybody tells you, words and ideas can change the world.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12225 posts, RR: 34
Reply 66, posted (1 year 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 59902 times:

Quoting knoxibus (Reply 66):
see highlighted in the quote.

Thank you very much sir   

Quoting knoxibus (Reply 66):
Also, there quite a few mistakes in airchive and aviation week's feedbacks, too much info to grasp in one go I guess.

Do you mind sharing those mistakes?  



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineaviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 635 posts, RR: 9
Reply 67, posted (1 year 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 59878 times:

Oh yes knoxibus, do you mind ?

Please ...


User currently offlinediscovery1 From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 25 posts, RR: 0
Reply 68, posted (1 year 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 59771 times:

To the surprise of no one here:
http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....l/avd_10_22_2013_p03-01-628768.xml

Airbus has launched detailed technical studies into further stretching the A350, program head Didier Evrard said yesterday.


User currently offlineBogi From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 69, posted (1 year 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 59053 times:

Interestingly enlarged Airbus the possible monthly capacity of production to over 10 + x.

User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12225 posts, RR: 34
Reply 70, posted (1 year 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 58296 times:

Quoting starbucks (Reply 63):
Do we know where MSN2 is?
Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 64):
I'll ask @TLSWatch if he could have a look again.

Checked in the beginning of the week: MSN2 is not outside anymore. So based on knoxibus hint, we can assume she's in S20 now.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2804 posts, RR: 59
Reply 71, posted (1 year 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 57131 times:

From the test thread:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 226):
Qatar says first A350 delivery is on schedule.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...31029

All parties are getting more and more confident, good for the planning for a lot of people, subcontractors, planners, pilots, network OPS and so on.   



Non French in France
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12225 posts, RR: 34
Reply 72, posted (1 year 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 57053 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 71):
All parties are getting more and more confident, good for the planning for a lot of people, subcontractors, planners, pilots, network OPS and so on.

   Al Baker jokingly said that "they will deliver on time because they don’t have lithium-ion batteries on board," referring to the recent grounding of the 787.   



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12225 posts, RR: 34
Reply 73, posted (1 year 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 56253 times:

French news paper LesEchos has a interview with Bregier. I've put the text through Google Translate:

Quote:
For six months, the program is exactly in line with what was expected of him. After more than 70 test flights, the first devices show a level of maturity uncommon. However, my experience with large projects makes me stay humble. We are always in the context of delivering the first copy to Qatar Airways in a year, but there is still a lot of steps on the way to certification and ramp.
Quote:
The market has changed since the program's inception in 2007, moving to devices with greater capacity as the A350-900. I see a good news. This gives us more time to optimize the version 800. Its release is still scheduled for 2016, but we will adapt if the market still has further to 900 and 1000 versions.

Source http://www.lesechos.fr/entreprises-s...350-tient-ses-objectifs-623517.php



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2804 posts, RR: 59
Reply 74, posted (1 year 23 hours ago) and read 55826 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 76):
French news paper LesEchos has a interview with Bregier. I've put the text through Google Translate:

It is a very good article, a bit of a state of the nation of Airbus in one interview. Nice bits about the 320 and 380. Regarding the 350 the extraordinary (hours de commun) maturity of the test aircrafts are confirmed, Airbus now focus fully on the ramp. There the challenge is to reach 10 per month by 2018.

Bregier also comments on the -800 for the first time in years. What he says is that they will deliver it when there is orders to deliver to and that they will review this in light of more slots needed for -900 and -1000. I interpret that as:

- we are working very hard to cut out any deliveries of the -800 early in the ramp. This we have observed for some time.

- Airbus retains the right to re-prioritize the -800 program at any time they see fit.

He also comments on the -1100 more concretely for the first time. Here he says it is a preliminary study at this stage and they have taken no decisions what so ever. They are very satisfied with their A350 position in the 300-350 pax segment where the majority of demand is. The 777-9X is a response to the 350-1000 more then anything else. (this assessment will change in 3 weeks when the 400 segment racks up to most widebody orders of the year, my comment  ).

[Edited 2013-10-30 00:06:14]


Non French in France
User currently offlinetortugamon From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 3449 posts, RR: 10
Reply 75, posted (1 year 21 hours ago) and read 55443 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 76):
This gives us more time to optimize the version 800. Its release is still scheduled for 2016

The word he uses for 'release' appears to be 'sortie' which I usually translate as 'exit' but in this context seems to be closer to 'output'. My French is rusty but I assume in this context this phrase "Sa sortie est toujours prévue" is synonymous with EIS/first delivery?

The 'toujours prevue' tells me that there isn't a change in the plan so I assume there is no news but the translation was fuzzy to me.

The confirmation from the CEO leads me to believe that you might be right about the A358 plan Karel.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 78):
- Airbus retains the right to re-prioritize the -800 program at any time they see fit.

I think you are right but at the same time it does appear that the decision to push it back is not definite yet and I thought it was a sure thing at this point. Maybe it will take US and another customer to agree to the change before they announce it. The retention of some of the SU A358 orders instead of a 100% transfer to the larger models like at QR also leads me to believe that Airbus is still planning on making it in a non-optimized form.

So, the big question is: How long can they wait? It seems like engineering resources are dedicated to the A351 and the A358 engineering demand is small. However, suppliers will need to start planning for fabrication of the new fuse and other changes.

It seems to take 6-9 months of flight testing for new derivatives and if they plan on a 2016 EIS there does not seem to be that much time to wait. Can they wait until the A350-1100 study is done? I assume they will wait until they know if they are adding more FAL capacity (I assume they will).

tortugamon


User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2804 posts, RR: 59
Reply 76, posted (1 year 19 hours ago) and read 55252 times:

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 75):
I think you are right but at the same time it does appear that the decision to push it back is not definite yet

I agree with your observations. IMO we will not get anything sensible out of Airbus re -800 by waiting for their statements, they have been threading water re the -800 to long, they are gaining time and market knowledge with the design at it's state. Here is where I think they are and how we can check on their state and planning options, it will be interesting to discuss:

DESING
First a picture of the main changes from the -900, we are talking about shorter skins for S13-14 and S16-18, this requires new mandrels (the female form for the tapelaying) and caul plates (female cooking forms for the autoclave) for the 8 panels involved. The optimised upper panel for section 15 should just be a new program for the Spirit tapelayer (with less layers for lower loads from the shorter overhangs). The cabin sections has to be shortened as well, it depends how modular the cabin design is how much work that is. Would any monuments (galleys, toilets...) disappear? :



I would assume there will be minor changes to systems, the AirCond pacs will be oversized but I don't think they would be touched as would not bleed, electrics and hydraulics. Avionics stays the same as does cabin systems.

Re engineering they of course have all the parts and knowledge from the -900 that they will use. I also think there is an overall design for the -800, ie a sizing of the aircraft including overall loads that makes it possible to know it's performance to a good level and also weight deltas from the changes. I would also venture there is an overall design for the shrink parts but no detail design, thus these can not be released for manufacturing as there are no drawings.


DECISION SITUATION AND LEAD TIMES
All this + the drawings for the tooling changes has to be done once there is a go decision. IMO there is no go decision, you can read that from Evrards and Bregiers statements.

Given a known delivery to the first customer we could work our way back like Tortugamon started and try to define when this go decision must be made to meet that delivery data. We already have flight test 6-9 months, say 7 months minimum.

- For manufacturing the largest changes would be to the mandrels and caul plates, what are the lead times there? I think I remeber this being discussed up-thread with CM and it has long lead times, anyone remember?

- When would the skins have to be at Hamburg (Section 16-18) and Nordenham (S13-14) to make it into the prototypes? The Spirit mid section is not critical as it is "only" a gauge change  .

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm262/ferpe_bucket/A350fuselageproduction_zpsa4f4ba33.jpg

- Then we would have to add a reasonable FAL time for a new variant, close to 9 months I would think.

So we have in series:

-decision
-detail design and tooling changes (are these in series as well?)
-flight test (can overlap the FAL for series aircraft)
-FAL and delivery Big grin

Lets try and nail where they are and when they have to make critical decisions! 

[Edited 2013-10-30 04:17:27]


Non French in France
User currently offlinemjoelnir From Iceland, joined Feb 2013, 1473 posts, RR: 3
Reply 77, posted (1 year 17 hours ago) and read 55086 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 76):

I could imagine that they are rather further along with the A 350-800.
IMO they have done the design they even could be prepared for the tooling change, as we are talking that most of the changes are length and/or the number of layers, no changes to the curvature of the mold. The tooling could be build for both length possibilities.
So the decision for go could be start manufacturing pieces.
I think the main reason for Airbus not pushing the start button for the A 350-800 are the troubles with the suppliers ramping up production for the A 350, if the ramp up has steadied, they can shoot in two A 350-800 for certification.


User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2804 posts, RR: 59
Reply 78, posted (12 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 54434 times:

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 77):
IMO they have done the design they even could be prepared for the tooling change, as we are talking that most of the changes are length and/or the number of layers, no changes to the curvature of the mold. The tooling could be build for both length possibilities.
OK, this is fully possible, we just don't have the insight to say which way it is I guess. The reason I do not think they are that far is the lack of any communication around the -800 project reaching Maturity Gate 5 which is necessary to pass into detail design and to produce drawings and manufacture. Here a picture of the -900 passing through the Maturity Gates:



The -900 reached MG5 Dec 2008 and the -1000 Jan 2013, it was broadly communicated by Airbus. Where the -800 is we don't know but I am pretty sure not passed MG5, we only know we have no communication at all about passed Maturity Gates. Anyway, we can construct two timelines, one where the stand before MG5 and one where they have passed it, no big deal.

Now the guessing of the time the -800 needs in the different stages, we already have a guess of 7 months for flight testing. From MG5 to first drawing release for changed parts I would say at least 10 months based on this picture, then production 12 months, FAL+ ground tests 9 months minimum, ie we would fly the first -800 prototype 31 months after decision. Add 7 months flight test and we have 38 months to EIS, grosso modo 3+ years  with max 3-6 months less if they have passed MG5 .

For first delivery mid 2016 the go decision should have been made mid this year  Yeah sure! , we know there has been made no decision   .

[Edited 2013-10-31 03:39:54]


Non French in France
User currently offlinemjoelnir From Iceland, joined Feb 2013, 1473 posts, RR: 3
Reply 79, posted (12 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 54164 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 78):

Again as I have understood it the A 350-800 was developed side by side with the A 350-900.
IMO I would have the A 350-800 somewhere around freeze of definitions in your graph.
We could have missed some decision points, if they were taken at the same time as for the A 350-900.
It would explain why they still tell us that the 800 can be done at the advertised time and try on the other hand to move every customer up to the 900.
The 800 is IMO a minimum change shrink, only shortening the fuselage and taken weight out of the panels where it is not needed. It would follow the strategy how they do the different versions of the A 320.
Production start could be meaningless compared to your graph as most of the parts could be taken out of the flow for the 900.
The decision left would to produce the special fuselage parts needed for the 800. It would be interesting to know what the time frame is on those parts.


User currently offlinetortugamon From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 3449 posts, RR: 10
Reply 80, posted (12 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 53944 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 78):

Thanks for putting this together ferpe. It is an intriguing question. If Airbus is around 'design freeze' on the graph then it looks like there is about a 2.5 year mark from there before aircraft delivery. If we are assuming a December 2016 EIS that back tracks to around a May/June 2014 decision.

If they have not reached maturity gate 5 then it looks like the decision needs to be made remarkably soon as it looks to pencil out to be more than 36 months for the A350-900. While the A358 will be quicker, it probably does not leave much room for surprises.

On a overly simplified basis I have read that customer specific/provided interiors often have 2+ years of lead time before they can be delivered and if it is a brand new interior this can take very significant amount of time. Now this would not impact the first couple aircraft of flight testing but it does appear that the primary A358 customers may not necessarily be early A359 customers (US, HA for example) so they may have to order their interiors specifically for the A358. There are ways about this and Airbus could defray the cost if they push back the program but I have to imagine they have to make the decision before this time next year to prevent too much of these types of products from being ordered/partially produced.

My guess is we will hear by Farnborough.  

tortugamon


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12225 posts, RR: 34
Reply 81, posted (12 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 53356 times:

The Spirit AeroSystems Q3 results are online, there was 1 A350 shipment in Q3 (these are the shipments to Airbus in Saint-Nazaire).



We had 3 ship sets in 2012:

> MSN5000
> MSN001
> MSN003

And 4 ship sets in 2013 so far:

> MSN002
> MSN5001 (EF2 fatigue test)
> MSN004
> MSN005

Expect a 5th ship set in Q4 for MSN6 (should be in Saint-Nazaire already).

Further story:
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...sses-on-a350-fuselage-work-392465/



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinestarbucks From Netherlands, joined Feb 2013, 753 posts, RR: 6
Reply 82, posted (12 months 16 hours ago) and read 52136 times:

MSN5 in the FAL:

Quote:
#Airbus begins final assembly of final #A350 test aircraft MSN5. pic.twitter.com/0ziWgmf5fm

@FlightDKM on Twitter



[Edited 2013-11-04 06:19:22]


A350 logbook: http://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AlVgPnmHLOovdFdzbVlyQzhYNDhCb1VFN1RkYXkwV3c&output=html
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12225 posts, RR: 34
Reply 83, posted (12 months 16 hours ago) and read 52175 times:

Final assembly of MSN5 has started.

http://twitter.com/FlightDKM/status/397365972236910594



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2804 posts, RR: 59
Reply 84, posted (12 months 15 hours ago) and read 52088 times:

Quoting starbucks (Reply 82):
MSN5 in the FAL:

As we have 2 FAL lines at P50 we have 2 photos :   

Someone beat Karel to a photo once again     

Nice that it is the previously delayed rear section that seems to be there first now, good work Ausgburg, Stade and Finkenwerder   



Non French in France
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12225 posts, RR: 34
Reply 85, posted (12 months 15 hours ago) and read 52041 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 84):
Someone beat Karel to a photo once again

He altered his post   



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinestarbucks From Netherlands, joined Feb 2013, 753 posts, RR: 6
Reply 86, posted (12 months 15 hours ago) and read 52054 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 85):
He altered his post  

Sorry 

First posted the message then edited the photo in it... iet's a race!

//Edit: Airbus on FB:

MSN5 final assembly has started - all five A350 XWB development aircraft are now in Toulouse

http://scontent-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/1385440_753652114651075_810597360_n.jpg

[Edited 2013-11-04 06:48:55]

[Edited 2013-11-04 06:49:39]

[Edited 2013-11-04 06:54:22]


A350 logbook: http://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AlVgPnmHLOovdFdzbVlyQzhYNDhCb1VFN1RkYXkwV3c&output=html
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12225 posts, RR: 34
Reply 87, posted (12 months 15 hours ago) and read 51906 times:

The forum software can automatically resize the picture if you remove the https from the url.

[Edited 2013-11-04 06:55:27]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineAviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 635 posts, RR: 9
Reply 88, posted (12 months 15 hours ago) and read 51838 times:

So all sections are loaded in P50

Let's see how it will go down the pipeline with minimal flight test gear


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12225 posts, RR: 34
Reply 89, posted (12 months 15 hours ago) and read 51818 times:

Quoting Aviaponcho (Reply 88):
So all sections are loaded in P50

   The next big thing is MSN6.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineAviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 635 posts, RR: 9
Reply 90, posted (12 months 15 hours ago) and read 51785 times:

I'll say it's MSN7 indeed, just to check if ramp up is correct 

MSN5 is supposed to be first batch 2 plane indeed

[Edited 2013-11-04 07:15:49]

User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2804 posts, RR: 59
Reply 91, posted (12 months 15 hours ago) and read 51756 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 89):
The next big thing is MSN6.

Absolutely, have you spotted any bits yet?

As you say the middle section should be at Airbus St Nazaire any day now for merging with wingbox, keel-beam and then equipping.



Non French in France
User currently offlinestarbucks From Netherlands, joined Feb 2013, 753 posts, RR: 6
Reply 92, posted (12 months 15 hours ago) and read 51751 times:

Quoting Aviaponcho (Reply 88):
So all sections are loaded in P50

P50 or P59?

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 89):
The next big thing is MSN6.

Indeed, Hope someone is able to take a picture from the painted QR tail  
Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 87):

The forum software can automatically resize the picture if you remove the https from the url.

Thanks, didn't know about that...



A350 logbook: http://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AlVgPnmHLOovdFdzbVlyQzhYNDhCb1VFN1RkYXkwV3c&output=html
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12225 posts, RR: 34
Reply 93, posted (12 months 14 hours ago) and read 51691 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 91):
Absolutely, have you spotted any bits yet?

Not yet, unfortunately.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 91):
As you say the middle section should be at Airbus St Nazaire any day now for merging with wingbox, keel-beam and then equipping.

Soon we'll find out if Airbus is indeed ramping up production as planned:

> FAL start MSN6 in December 2013
> FAL start MSN7 in January 2014
> etc

The Spirit Q4 results should show at least 2 A350 deliveries (MSN6 and MSN7) for the last quarter of 2013, we'll know in the beginning of January.

Quoting starbucks (Reply 92):
P50 or P59?

The join tool as seen in the Facebook picture is P50. The fuselage sections must have been arrived in P59 last week.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2804 posts, RR: 59
Reply 94, posted (12 months 14 hours ago) and read 51643 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 93):
The fuselage sections must have been arrived in P59 last week.

They could have arrived even earlier, there is a bit of equipping going in in P59. This is where they enter the big stuff like galleys and toilets or complete monuments like sections around the doors through the fuselage ends (practical big holes  ) and then mount them to the fuselage and floor. Could imagine it takes a couple of days and they need to do it on all 3 sections. P59 is more then a collection hall for the FAL  Wow! .



Non French in France
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12225 posts, RR: 34
Reply 95, posted (12 months 14 hours ago) and read 51683 times:

High-res pictures are atm being uploaded.

http://www.airbus.com/fileadmin/media_gallery/photogallery/big/800x600_1383574808_MAN-122-20131103-JBA-A350_MSN5_SECTIONS_ENTRY_INTO_FAL-030.jpg

http://www.airbus.com/fileadmin/media_gallery/photogallery/big/800x600_1383573627_A350_MSN5_SECTIONS_ENTRY_INTO_FAL.jpg

http://www.airbus.com/fileadmin/media_gallery/photogallery/big/800x600_1383574808_MAN-122-20131103-JBA-A350_MSN5_SECTIONS_ENTRY_INTO_FAL-034.jpg

You can download them here:
http://www.airbus.com/presscentre/pressroom/high-res-photos/

Press release:
http://www.eads.com/eads/int/en/news....20131104_airbus_a350xwb_msn5.html

[Edited 2013-11-04 07:44:11]

[Edited 2013-11-04 07:45:24]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12225 posts, RR: 34
Reply 96, posted (12 months 12 hours ago) and read 51415 times:

A350 parts have been spotted in XFW, MSN unknown.


A350 parts by XFW-Spotter, on Flickr



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinestarbucks From Netherlands, joined Feb 2013, 753 posts, RR: 6
Reply 97, posted (12 months 12 hours ago) and read 51373 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 96):
A350 parts have been spotted in XFW, MSN unknown.

A "05" is visible through the white cover..  
Its the vertical stabiliser for MSN005



A350 logbook: http://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AlVgPnmHLOovdFdzbVlyQzhYNDhCb1VFN1RkYXkwV3c&output=html
User currently offlineAstuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 10127 posts, RR: 97
Reply 98, posted (12 months 12 hours ago) and read 51382 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 95):
High-res pictures are atm being uploaded

difficult to tell from a distance, but there appears to already be a fair amount of "pre-outfit" in these sections.

Thanks for the pix

Rgds


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12225 posts, RR: 34
Reply 99, posted (12 months 12 hours ago) and read 51388 times:

Quoting starbucks (Reply 97):
A "05" is visible through the white cover..  
Its the vertical stabiliser for MSN005

Always good to have someone around with eagle eyes   

[Edited 2013-11-04 09:53:30]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4813 posts, RR: 40
Reply 100, posted (12 months 12 hours ago) and read 51321 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 98):
difficult to tell from a distance, but there appears to already be a fair amount of "pre-outfit" in these sections.

Well spotted. It shows possibly again how mature the program already is, even if the program is still in its test phase.


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12225 posts, RR: 34
Reply 101, posted (12 months 12 hours ago) and read 51299 times:

Unfortunately I can't see if MSN5 has to radome dish on the roof, like MSN2.


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12225 posts, RR: 34
Reply 102, posted (12 months 10 hours ago) and read 51367 times:

I'm not sure if this was reported earlier, but Trent XWB engine testing on the A380 testbed has come to an end. The A380 disappeared in a hangar last July and made its first flight today with four Trent 900 engines again.


Taxiing msn1 F-WWOW 13/6/2013 by A380_TLS_A350, on Flickr


msn1 F-WWOW 4/11/2013 by A380_TLS_A350, on Flickr



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4813 posts, RR: 40
Reply 103, posted (12 months 10 hours ago) and read 51288 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 102):
I'm not sure if this was reported earlier,

If it was, then I missed it. Thanks for the information though.  


User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2694 posts, RR: 1
Reply 104, posted (11 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 50429 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 102):
Trent XWB engine testing on the A380 testbed has come to an end. The A380 disappeared in a hangar last July and made its first flight today with four Trent 900 engines again.

Thanks for that new info. That's a lot of FTB engine testing indeed, even continued well after certification. Airbus and RR must know the TrentXWB inside and out by now in very possible regime; there should be zero surprises for EIS on the engine side.


User currently offlineTheRedBaron From Mexico, joined Mar 2005, 2264 posts, RR: 9
Reply 105, posted (11 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 50391 times:

I wonder if the Raccoon has its pitot tubes near the radome "wiskers" due to the problems in icing the A330 had, and Airbus changed their location in a place where Icing is more difficult to hold...

BTW, great pictures.

TRB



The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12225 posts, RR: 34
Reply 106, posted (11 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 50100 times:

I'm not sure where to put this, but Lufthansa refused to be limited to the A350 seat catalog: "we don't like the catalogue & we won’t take the catalogue".

http://twitter.com/RunwayGirl/status/397770394645438464

Is it possible to take other seats rather than the ones in the catalog?

[Edit]

Found the answer by myself:

Per Lufthansa: "We could take aircraft bare and not use their seats".

[Edited 2013-11-05 10:00:09]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineblrsea From India, joined May 2005, 1426 posts, RR: 3
Reply 107, posted (11 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 50048 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 106):
Per Lufthansa: "We could take aircraft bare and not use their seats".

Are the catalogue's seat too good for LH's liking   ? My last two flights on LH on the 330s and 747s(SEA-FRA-BLR), the seats were harder and didn't have as much plush as the BA ones. Maybe they want a more barebones cheaper seat for Y


User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2804 posts, RR: 59
Reply 108, posted (11 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 50001 times:

Quoting blrsea (Reply 107):
Maybe they want a more barebones cheaper seat for Y

Germany are hooked on harder seats, just try their cars and you will feel it, it is a conviction that it is better for the long haul comfort. I must say I don't like soft seats, the leather LH ones on short-haul are not very good though (don't vent as the leather is heavy varnished).



Non French in France
User currently offlinekmz From Germany, joined Feb 2008, 164 posts, RR: 2
Reply 109, posted (11 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 49199 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 106):
I'm not sure where to put this, but Lufthansa refused to be limited to the A350 seat catalog: "we don't like the catalogue & we won’t take the catalogu

I understand the catalog is so convenient for the OEM. But depending on how the catalog is handled it can also be slowing down innovation.....


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12225 posts, RR: 34
Reply 110, posted (11 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 49129 times:

As we have seen with the A380, having too much cabin options isn't good either. The A350 catalog should be fine for most customers, and the few like LH (and probably BA too) who doesn't like it can always install their own products.

[Edited 2013-11-06 11:23:48]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2804 posts, RR: 59
Reply 111, posted (11 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 48269 times:

Airbus has changed their range figures for all A350 models on their web. Leeham has noticed it and gotten an explanation from Airbus it is because they go from 3 class cabins to the more common 2 class:

http://leehamnews.wordpress.com/2013...sed-capacity-assumptions/#comments

In summary they now list:

- A350-800 with a 276 pax 2 class cabin 8250nm

- A350-900 with a 315 pax 2 class cabin 7750nm

- A350-1000 with a 369 pax 2 class cabin 8000nm

The going from a 3 class cabin to a 2 class means normally that the cabin gets lighter, not haeavier. The figure 250 and 301 seats in a 3 class cabin I have not seen since ages if ever. For the -1000 there is a real increase in pax count, for the others not really. But the pax count including their seats etc only account for less then half of the 400nm loss of range for the -1000.

It is all an adjustment for the real OEWs that the program has known of since quite some time, here the first indication from this December last year, the John Lehay comparison of hte 359 and the 7810:

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm262/ferpe_bucket/PayloadrangeA350-900vs7810GIF2012_zpsec7c1065.jpg

There was also the change in empty weight in the clearance table in the ACAP. The sum is that all models looses about an hour of fuel and that the better then expected TXWB and aero buys back 20 minutes. It was the latter that Airbus wanted to have confirmed by MSN003 before they decided to change all official numbers.



Non French in France
User currently offlineBogi From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 112, posted (11 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 48112 times:

See http://www.airbus.com/aircraftfamilies/passengeraircraft/a350xwbfamily

Quote:
In a typical two-class configuration, the A350-800 will accommodate 276 passengers, while the A350-900 and the A350-1000 will seat 315 and 369 passengers, respectively.


User currently offlineBoeingVista From Australia, joined Jan 2009, 1581 posts, RR: 3
Reply 113, posted (11 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 47771 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 111):
There was also the change in empty weight in the clearance table in the ACAP. The sum is that all models looses about an hour of fuel and that the better then expected TXWB and aero buys back 20 minutes. It was the latter that Airbus wanted to have confirmed by MSN003 before they decided to change all official numbers.

So we don't have to go searching through old ACAP's can you give us the old and new weights.. Also do you have a link to the performance confirmation from Airbus?



BV
User currently offlineap305 From India, joined Jan 2000, 588 posts, RR: 0
Reply 114, posted (11 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 47634 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 111):
Airbus has changed their range figures for all A350 models on their web. Leeham has noticed it and gotten an explanation from Airbus it is because they go from 3 class cabins to the more common 2 class:

http://leehamnews.wordpress.com/2013...sed-capacity-assumptions/#comments

In summary they now list:

- A350-800 with a 276 pax 2 class cabin 8250nm

- A350-900 with a 315 pax 2 class cabin 7750nm

- A350-1000 with a 369 pax 2 class cabin 8000nm

The going from a 3 class cabin to a 2 class means normally that the cabin gets lighter, not haeavier. The figure 250 and 301 seats in a 3 class cabin I have not seen since ages if ever. For the -1000 there is a real increase in pax count, for the others not really. But the pax count including their seats etc only account for less then half of the 400nm loss of range for the -1000.

It is all an adjustment for the real OEWs that the program has known of since quite some time, here the first indication from this December last year, the John Lehay comparison of hte 359 and the 7810:

I think the figures on the website mean absolutely nothing when it comes to what was guaranteed to each specific customer nor is it likely to be a reflection of current performance. Even the acap does not have a specific definition of what the "oew" includes. I would just go by what the Airbus management has said publicly (particularly Leahy)- she's performing to spec, so far so good etc.


User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2804 posts, RR: 59
Reply 115, posted (11 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 47575 times:

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 113):
So we don't have to go searching through old ACAP's can you give us the old and new weights.. Also do you have a link to the performance confirmation from Airbus?

In the ACAPs Airbus has such a table where they put the spec OEW in the table which for the 359 has 135t as operational empty weightm, this was subsequently raised to 142t in Jan this year. Coincidence is of course that it just happens to fit with where the OEW has always been quoted and it also fits with the loss in range (as explained):

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm262/ferpe_bucket/A350weightinfo14052013_zpsc316f0d9.jpg

The performance is on the web site as said:

http://www.airbus.com/aircraftfamili...xwbfamily/a350-900/specifications/

An here Airbus own figures from their specification spreadsheet they issued Jan 2012, note 314 px in 3 class with 18/50/246:

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm262/ferpe_bucket/AirbusaircraftdatatableJan2012_zpsbcbdd0e9.jpg

and this is according to the Airbus marketing department lighter then their 2 class cabin with 315 pax in 48/267 (here the ACAP from June 2013), sure pal  Wow! (go figure):

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm262/ferpe_bucket/ACAPJune2013LOPA2class_zps3a6394b4.jpg

[Edited 2013-11-08 22:39:12]


Non French in France
User currently offlineap305 From India, joined Jan 2000, 588 posts, RR: 0
Reply 116, posted (11 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 47516 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 115):
The performance is on the web site as said:

http://www.airbus.com/aircraftfamili...xwbfamily/a350-900/specifications/

An here Airbus own figures from their specification spreadsheet they issued Jan 2012:

But nothing has changed from that Leahy slide of almost a year ago when you compare to the "new" range from yesterday- so I am not sure how you conclude that msn3's performance tests are influencing the "brochure range" on the Airbus website? Even 2 weeks back Evrard was saying that no formal fuel burn tests have been done.

[Edited 2013-11-08 21:52:28]

User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2804 posts, RR: 59
Reply 117, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 47437 times:

Quoting ap305 (Reply 116):
so I am not sure how you conclude that msn3's performance tests are influencing the "brochure range" on the Airbus website? Even 2 weeks back Evrard was saying that no formal fuel burn tests have been done.

I did not say that, I said they waited to break the news about the changed payload-range for all models until they had very good figures from MSN003 to make sure the now have it under complete control. There is one thing to change your official mind about something like payload-rang, there is another thing doing it several times, then you don't have things under control.

Re Evrards comments, why do we always take what they say literally? The formal fuel burn tests are called NAMs and are typically done at end of flight testing with a serial conform aircraft, MSN005 in this case. But Airbus stated that from the second week they did first performance checks with MSN001 and they have checked performance on EVERY single flight since, they just can't avoid it, or do you think they have been ignoring the fuel flow during 500 flight hours  Wow! . Then you don't know pilots and flight operations, they even need it for their flight planning    .

Sure weight and CG has not been at max points perhaps but that is for the engineers to ponder out with their models, they have got it to within a % before MSN003 flew.



Non French in France
User currently offlinericknroll From Afghanistan, joined Jan 2012, 862 posts, RR: 0
Reply 118, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 47205 times:

What do we call the A350-1100 if the A350-1000 is the A351? The A352 doesn't sound right.

User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2804 posts, RR: 59
Reply 119, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 47049 times:

35K is a suggestion 


Non French in France
User currently offlineap305 From India, joined Jan 2000, 588 posts, RR: 0
Reply 120, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 47054 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 117):
Re Evrards comments, why do we always take what they say literally? The formal fuel burn tests are called NAMs and are typically done at end of flight testing with a serial conform aircraft, MSN005 in this case. But Airbus stated that from the second week they did first performance checks with MSN001 and they have checked performance on EVERY single flight since, they just can't avoid it, or do you think they have been ignoring the fuel flow during 500 flight hours Wow! . Then you don't know pilots and flight operations, they even need it for their flight planning

Far from it I have been thinking they have done performance tests from the four minutes in cruise during the first flight . However they clearly are not willing to say anything till the formal tests are done and I doubt if the website is their chosen means of updating aircraft performance based on flight test results. If the weight was indeed reducing range, I think we would have already heard (Assuming Airbus is updating the customers constantly) from a certain customer in the middle east .


User currently offlineStTim From UK - England, joined Aug 2013, 811 posts, RR: 0
Reply 121, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 46859 times:

Also as stated - MSN0001 is hardly a clean bird aerodynamically. There are camera pods and all sorts protruding.

I have not seen enough close up pics of MSN0003 to see if she also has those - she certainly has the tail skid.

No accurate figures yet - but enough for internal confidence.


User currently offlineThunderboltDrgn From Sweden, joined Jan 2012, 667 posts, RR: 0
Reply 122, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 46832 times:

Quoting ricknroll (Reply 118):
What do we call the A350-1100 if the A350-1000 is the A351?
The A352 doesn't sound right.
Quoting ferpe (Reply 119):
35K is a suggestion

Surely the 1000 would be 35K and the 1100 35K1?



Like a thunderbolt of lightning the Dragon roars across the sky. Il Drago Ruggente
User currently offlineAustrianZRH From Austria, joined Aug 2007, 1389 posts, RR: 0
Reply 123, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 46775 times:

Quoting ThunderboltDrgn (Reply 122):
Surely the 1000 would be 35K

No, the -1000 would be the 35J, as J is the 10th letter in the alphabet. K is the 11th one, thus 35K for the -1100. This is a continuation of the scheme with 73G for the 737-700 or 73H for a wingletted 737-800. But of course I see your reasoning in your post.



WARNING! The post above should be taken with a grain of salt! Furthermore, it may be slightly biased towards A.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12225 posts, RR: 34
Reply 124, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 46313 times:

MSN6 wings are painted and ready for transport to Bremen.


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineBogi From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 125, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 46273 times:

New Photos http://www.airbus.com/galleries/photo-gallery/filter/a350-xwb-family

 


User currently offlineap305 From India, joined Jan 2000, 588 posts, RR: 0
Reply 126, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 46176 times:

Quoting Bogi (Reply 125):
New Photos http://www.airbus.com/galleries/phot...amily

Thanks - so WB is getting ready for flutter testing...


User currently offlineTriniA340 From Trinidad and Tobago, joined Nov 2005, 107 posts, RR: 0
Reply 127, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 46549 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 102):
I'm not sure if this was reported earlier, but Trent XWB engine testing on the A380 testbed has come to an end. The A380 disappeared in a hangar last July and made its first flight today with four Trent 900 engines again.

So, as Airbus are looking to improve the A380 in order to make it more competitive, and as they have now tested the Trent XWB engine on the A380, therefore they know how it will improve the economics of it, have they studied using the new engine on it?



· longer · larger · farther · faster · higher · quieter · smoother ·
User currently offlineBogi From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 128, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 46467 times:

Simple the best
http://oi43.tinypic.com/2gtvo13.jpg


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12225 posts, RR: 34
Reply 129, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 46421 times:

Quoting ap305 (Reply 114):
I think the figures on the website mean absolutely nothing when it comes to what was guaranteed to each specific customer nor is it likely to be a reflection of current performance. Even the acap does not have a specific definition of what the "oew" includes. I would just go by what the Airbus management has said publicly (particularly Leahy)- she's performing to spec, so far so good etc.

This is nothing new IMO, Airbus advertises the A350 in 2-class with the same range numbers since a long time. I have a A350 marketing PDF from 2011 which shows about the same numbers.

http://s22.postimg.org/5itepiqup/Screenshot_from_2013_11_08_15_27_53.png

PDF is available on request.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineap305 From India, joined Jan 2000, 588 posts, RR: 0
Reply 130, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 46342 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 129):
This is nothing new IMO, Airbus advertises the A350 in 2-class with the same range numbers since a long time. I have a A350 marketing PDF from 2011 which shows about the same numbers.

Exactly- these figures have been in the public domain for some time now. They got around to putting them on the website and for whatever reason Leeham seems to think this is noteworthy.


User currently offlineBogi From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 131, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 46333 times:

http://oi44.tinypic.com/2jcssbm.jpg
Source http://www.eads.com/dms/eads/int/en/...ts-Reports/naif-2010/NAIF_A350.pdf


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12225 posts, RR: 34
Reply 132, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 46342 times:

Another A350 fuselage part is ready for Beluga transport, this time in Hamburg. The picture is not big enough to zoom in on it, but I assume it's the forward fuselage section of MSN6 which will be joined with the nose section in Saint-Nazaire.

http://s13.postimg.org/cs1sqyitj/i3705bxr9h6.jpg

Source:
http://pics.aviation-friends-hamburg....php?seite=display&img=i3705bxr9h6



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineBogi From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 133, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 46222 times:

http://oi41.tinypic.com/2eato3m.jpg
Source http://pics.aviation-friends-hamburg...ex.php?seite=usergalerie.12.bilder


User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2804 posts, RR: 59
Reply 134, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 46195 times:

Quoting Bogi (Reply 133):
Source http://pics.aviation-friends-hamburg...ex.php?seite=usergalerie.12.bilder

Perfect guys, we are the MSN006 on the heels, keep the track   



Non French in France
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12225 posts, RR: 34
Reply 135, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 46148 times:

Also, with both MSN6 wings ready for transport to Bremen, wing join in P40 should occur in the beginning of January. We have to wait for Airbus to confirm, but it seems FAL start is on track for the beginning of next month.


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineBogi From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 136, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 46203 times:

The next thread is "A350 Production Part 15"  

Not "A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 15"

[Edited 2013-11-09 09:53:53]

User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12225 posts, RR: 34
Reply 137, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 46142 times:

Here we go: the rear fusulage of MSN6 (section 19) was spotted in Hamburg today.


A350 Part for the MSN006 by XFW-Spotter, on Flickr


A350 part MSN006 by XFW-Spotter, on Flickr

[Edited 2013-11-09 10:22:53]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12225 posts, RR: 34
Reply 138, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 45919 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 115):
note 314 px in 3 class with 18/50/246:
Quoting ferpe (Reply 115):
2 class cabin with 315 pax in 48/267

BTW did Airbus ever showed a seat map for an 3-class A350-900? There are some 2-class seat maps available on the internet, but I can't find any 3-class configurations.

See, F is 1-2-1 which should give 16 (4 rows x 4-abreast) seats and J is 2-2-2 which should give 48 seats (8 rows x 6-abreast). Instead, Airbus lists 18 and 50 seats in F and J respectively. Also, four F rows should give us 36 Y seats, thus an 2-class A350 should have around 330 seats. Something doesn't add up here.

[Edited 2013-11-09 11:41:02]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineAviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 635 posts, RR: 9
Reply 139, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 45607 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 129):

Yes Karel
Nothing new since before PS2011 a least
No weight creep
It's the same as for A330 family where you loose 500 mm or so between the 3 class and 2 class layout.
2 class is heavier because modern biz seat @60 in is heavier than old school ones @39 in pitch.
And Ice is still heavy.
Airbus 2 class layout is weight wise on par with real life airlines layout.

So, nothing special.

By the way, Karel I haven't got those slides... I've got older ones


User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2804 posts, RR: 59
Reply 140, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 45154 times:

Quoting Aviaponcho (Reply 139):
No weight creep
It's the same as for A330 family where you loose 500 mm or so between the 3 class and 2 class layout.
2 class is heavier because modern biz seat @60 in is heavier than old school ones @39 in pitch.

We need to penetrate this more in detail before I buy that. The classical weights used in airplane seating is something like:

First class 125 kg

Business class 60 kg

Economy class 15 kg.

So the total seat weight was 18*125+50*60+246*15= 8940kg

Now lets see how much a 60'' business seat need to weigh to equal that weight (8940 - 267*15) / 48 = 103 kg.

With 103kg per new business seat we are at the same weight as before, ie a range of 8100nm for the 359.

The weight that causes this loss of range is the equal of 350nm which at 85nm per tonne fuel we trade equals 4118kg liberated for heavier seating. Lets divide that on the 48 business seats = 86 kg in addition. So the new business seats weighs 189kg each.

So we go from a traditional business seat weight to something like 190kg? I don't think so  Yeah sure .

[Edited 2013-11-09 23:49:52]


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User currently offlinePW100 From Netherlands, joined Jan 2002, 2517 posts, RR: 12
Reply 141, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 44921 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 140):
Economy class 15 kg.

Does that include modern IFE equipment?

Also, did you account for the addional pax weight, going from 3-class to 2-class? There should be a nice payload increase as well.



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User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2804 posts, RR: 59
Reply 142, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 44286 times:

Quoting PW100 (Reply 141):
Does that include modern IFE equipment?

Also, did you account for the addional pax weight, going from 3-class to 2-class? There should be a nice payload increase as well.

No it does not, it is only the seat. But the 3 class ship contains 314 seats and the 2 class 315 and every seat has IFE so there is not real difference, not in pax weights as well. Further, whether the economy seat wheighs 15 or 20 kilos (which is the typical spread for normal long-range seats) is also immaterial as as the 3 class has 246 and the other 267 and we are seeking the reason for a 4.1 tonnes weight difference.



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User currently offlineThunderboltDrgn From Sweden, joined Jan 2012, 667 posts, RR: 0
Reply 143, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 43966 times:

Quoting AustrianZRH (Reply 123):

No, the -1000 would be the 35J, as J is the 10th letter in the alphabet. K is the 11th one, thus 35K for the -1100. This is a continuation of the scheme with 73G for the 737-700 or 73H for a wingletted 737-800. But of course I see your reasoning in your post.

Aha ok I see. Thanks for explaining.



Like a thunderbolt of lightning the Dragon roars across the sky. Il Drago Ruggente
User currently offlineAviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 635 posts, RR: 9
Reply 144, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 43387 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 140):

Ferpe I guess typical 3 class layout doesn't include IFE, whereas typical 2 class surely include it
From MEW to DOW from one layout to another with almost the same seat what can change is :

- Crew : 2, or 4 pilots, 8, 12 - 14 FA ? If double crew for long haul (that's 0.6-1 t depending on total crew)
- Flight crew rest and Cabin crew rest. What weight ? go for 0.5 - 1t
- Galley, even empty galley's have a weight
- Toilets
- Pantry ... one or two meal ? go for 1 t or more variation..
- Tare for LD3 for luggage ?
- IFE 1-3 t weight

So I think that going from airbus 3 class layout to 2 class layout is not all about seats
How do you explain range variation in the A330 family between 3 and 2 class ?


User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2804 posts, RR: 59
Reply 145, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 43467 times:

I have now updated the production spreadsheet I presented up-thread. I have also added P20 and Paint in the order they are made now with Paint after P20, it might stay that way otherwise I change that later. I also did some other refinements:

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm262/ferpe_bucket/A350productionschedule10112013_zps332e68d8.jpg

I also put in the frames up until MSN010 and the approximate production times one can expect in each station. When doing that a couple of things became evident:

- FAL time to flight test for MSN005 is around 200 days

- FAL + delivery preparation time for MSN006 is around 260 days if not more if delivery will be after 1 Sept next year. Of course it will be a bit more to do to deliver a frame to a customer (customer flight tests, squawk fixing time etc) but will that take 2 months more then MSN005 which shall be a fully equipped airframe with cabin etc?

Either MSN005 will take a bit longer or there is quite some slack in the delivery to Qatar. I will also be interesting to see FAL start for MSN007, it that is one month after MSN006 then I see MSN006-009 going to customers in 2014, will be interesting to watch. Anyone else then Qatar which will have early deliveries?

I will now put this sheet together with the test flight sheet, who can give me the right to do that? Starbucks?

[Edited 2013-11-10 14:43:56]


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User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2804 posts, RR: 59
Reply 146, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 43313 times:

Quoting Aviaponcho (Reply 144):
Ferpe I guess typical 3 class layout doesn't include IFE, whereas typical 2 class surely include it
From MEW to DOW from one layout to another with almost the same seat what can change is :

We have to separate two things:

- nominal range specifications and payload range comparisons of frames. The generally accepted rules for that (which can be twisted but only slightly) are pretty spartan and standardized cabins. Boeing follows an old standard (I think it is an ATA standard), Airbus has their own ideas and tries to not do exactly like Boeing so there is wiggle room for the marketing B-S between the companies but they configure with nominal read spartan 2 or 3 class cabins.

- Comparison presentations of real airliner configurations. Here there is a more free choice to put in anything the marketing department might see fit for the case and which would suit you and put the competition at a disadvantage. Cheating with statistics is the name of the game.

The above means for a specification case like the Web site and official nominal payload-range:

- Cabin is as specified but with very standard seats and their most common weights. For Boeing they follow the standard, ie old lighter seats and VCR style IFE. For Airbus standard busines class and economy seats, no herring bones or sophisticated lie flats like Thomson Vantage etc. Airbus IFE is at a nominal level, read spartan level, exactly what is not clear to me. Crew is for both regulatory with no replacements, no crew rests, no bagge LD3s ie not tares, no pantry, no water etc i.e. DOW weight adders are not counted. Galleys, toilets etc are nominal as per the ACAP.

It is only nominal OEW + pax number times 95.25kg for Boeing and 95.0 kg for Airbus and then fuel and nothing more. Enroute reserve is 5%, here cheating with 3% can take place but not often, then the 45 min circling and 200nm diversion to alternate fuels are included as well. That is it, nothing more counts for the nominal range figures and both OEM's stick to that. None of them includes more items or weights then needed, if they would they would arificially diminish their aircrafts capabilities which could lead to them not being considered in an evaluation as their nominal payload range would be short of the gating requirement.

The above means that these figures are very comparable and that is why I stick to these otherwise nothing can be compared. The aircraft you describe can have any cabins and other assumptions dependent on what the OEM want to prove in just this case. That is why when Airbus put new figures on their web (and not in a specific presentation to a specific audience) they are signalling that things have changed in the fundamental figures because there is not much that can change in the basic assumptions, there are not many and they are standardized. Any deviation from this standard will be pointed out by the other guy and you loose face or range and that you don't want.



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User currently offlineAviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 635 posts, RR: 9
Reply 147, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 43310 times:

All right
But how did you explain that
A330-300 5570 nm 300 PAX 2 class (36/264) : http://www.airbus.com/aircraftfamili...engeraircraft/a330family/a330-300/
and

A330-300 5850 Nm 295 PAX 3 class : http://www.airbus.com/aircraftfamili...t/a330family/a330-300/performance/

http://www.airbus.com/aircraftfamili...330family/a330-300/specifications/

A330-300 242 t 6400 NM

and

http://www.airbus.com/aircraftfamili...engeraircraft/a330family/a330-300/

A330-300 242 t 2 class 300 PAX 6100 Nm (+500 NM vs 235 t version -> 5570 Nm fits well)

The delta is 300 Nm soit 2.5-3t

[Edited 2013-11-10 14:53:51]

User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2804 posts, RR: 59
Reply 148, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 43211 times:

Quoting Aviaponcho (Reply 147):
But how did you explain that
A330-300 5570 nm 300 PAX 2 class (36/264) : http://www.airbus.com/aircraftfamili...engeraircraft/a330family/a330-300/
and

A330-300 5850 Nm 295 PAX 3 class : http://www.airbus.com/aircraftfamili...t/a330family/a330-300/performance/

http://www.airbus.com/aircraftfamili...330family/a330-300/specifications/

A330-300 242 t 6400 NM

and

http://www.airbus.com/aircraftfamili...engeraircraft/a330family/a330-300/

A330-300 242 t 2 class 300 PAX 6100 Nm (+500 NM vs 235 t version -> 5570 Nm fits well)

The delta is 300 Nm

I don't get it, in all cases you have to go to DIMENSIONS & KEY DATA and then read the A330-300 SPECS and then you read for ALL the cases you list (under the Imperial tab) the spec range with the spec payload on the spec sheet:

Range 6 400 nm

Typical seating (for this spec case, my note) Pax symbol x 300 (2-class)

The other figures you quote are "up to XXX" marketing speak in an intro text and works as a header for an interactive WW map. It has no other data specified and is a free text presentation pointing out certain characteristics which can be achieved but how is not specified. It might include any assumptions like prevailing winds dependent on the routing you put on the map, realistic airline cabins, cargo, what have you. Nothing is specified which is why you can not take these figures and use them, you have to rely on the spec section or you are in a serious apples and oranges situation.



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User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12225 posts, RR: 34
Reply 149, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 42704 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 145):
I have now updated the production spreadsheet I presented up-thread. I have also added P20 and Paint in the order they are made now with Paint after P20, it might stay that way otherwise I change that later. I also did some other refinements:

Keep up the good work   

Quoting ferpe (Reply 145):
I will now put this sheet together with the test flight sheet, who can give me the right to do that? Starbucks?

Starbucks and I both have a public spreadsheet, I'm not sure what the best approach would be.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 145):
Either MSN005 will take a bit longer or there is quite some slack in the delivery to Qatar. I will also be interesting to see FAL start for MSN007, it that is one month after MSN006 then I see MSN006-009 going to customers in 2014, will be interesting to watch. Anyone else then Qatar which will have early deliveries?

Per Airbus statement, MSN6 first flight will happen in August 2014. This means 3 months between MSN5 and MSN6 while there is only 1 month between FAL start of both frames. I assume MSN6 will need more time because it will undergo customer walks etc, being a new aircraft type this will take some time I guess. Looking at the 787 production, those customer inspections can be pitty. And delivery itself will not happen until 4-5 weeks after obtaining type certification anyway.

MSN7 will be interesting to watch, it will learn us if Airbus is meeting the production ramp-up.

[Edited 2013-11-11 02:13:03]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2804 posts, RR: 59
Reply 150, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 42420 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 149):
Starbucks and I both have a public spreadsheet, I'm not sure what the best approach would be.

I got a tab in Starbucks flight test sheet, here it is, right after his production list:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlVgPnmHLOovdFdzbVlyQzhYNDhCb1VFN1RkYXkwV3c#gid=9

Please come with additions or corrections, I will maintain it as we get additional info on spotting of sections etc.

[Edited 2013-11-11 03:50:30]


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User currently offlineAviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 635 posts, RR: 9
Reply 151, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 41689 times:

Ferpe


http://www.google.fr/url?sa=t&rct=j&..._dWp3UlRGT0g&bvm=bv.56146854,d.d2k

Slide39

Quote:
6,100nm range with 242t MTOW A330-300
242t A330-300 in typical 2 class layout, 95kg pax, JAR 3% profile, LRC, 200nm diversion

So ?
That's from a Leahy slide


User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2804 posts, RR: 59
Reply 152, posted (11 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 41693 times:

Quoting Aviaponcho (Reply 151):
So ?

So what? The slides are the type two I wrote about, ie you can't make anything out of the figures.

Leahy is on a quest to prove something at the last Global investor forum (Dec 2012), in this case that the A330-300 is a good bet versus the 777-200ER and the 787-9. By now we shall know that as soon as there is a comparison the tendency is to muddle the rules (JAR 3%, LRC ie not design M ). Why? Because the OEMs want to break the link to the audience memory of the competitions data, the worst thing that can happen is that someone raises up and says "that is not the range of the 777-200ER / 787-9!" = presentation destroyed. So you change the rules, in this case 3% en-route reserve and long range cruise M, also the seating is with only 36 Business seats, way off from Boeings typical 3 class seating. So you can't reference your 200LR or 789 data and Airbus of course have the knowledge for the A330-300 so you can't question their flight data as well.

One has to learn to not try and compare from such figures, the only ones which are reasonably comparable is the spec ranges as these are consistenly done with (mostly) the same rules.



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User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12225 posts, RR: 34
Reply 153, posted (11 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 41462 times:

MSN6 forward fuselage section has been spotted in Hamburg. It will be mated with the nose section in Saint-Nazaire.


A350 part MSN6 by XFW-Spotter, on Flickr



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2804 posts, RR: 59
Reply 154, posted (11 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 40821 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 153):
MSN6 forward fuselage section has been spotted in Hamburg

It is great that we have these spotters helping us keep track of Airbus  , do we have any knowledge what the throughflow time to FAL is from section 13-14 being shipped?



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User currently offlineThunderboltDrgn From Sweden, joined Jan 2012, 667 posts, RR: 0
Reply 155, posted (11 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 40614 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 153):
MSN6 forward fuselage section has been spotted in Hamburg

If I understood it right #6 is the first customer production aircraft?



Like a thunderbolt of lightning the Dragon roars across the sky. Il Drago Ruggente
User currently offlineStTim From UK - England, joined Aug 2013, 811 posts, RR: 0
Reply 156, posted (11 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 40629 times:

Correct MSN0006 is the first Customer unit.

User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2804 posts, RR: 59
Reply 157, posted (11 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 39306 times:

Interersting facts about Boeings view on the A350 program comes in a interview with the IAM president by Reuters:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...on-interview-idUSBRE9AE17T20131115

"
Buffenbarger said Conner and Deal expressed the Boeing board's view that launch of the Airbus A350 went "a lot more smoothly than was anticipated. So they see stiffer competition now arriving earlier rather than later."

Customers such as Emirates airline, which are big buyers of the current 777, are clamoring for the 777X to replace jets they plan to retire later in the decade. Emirates is expected to announce an order for at least 100 777X jetliners in the next few days at the Dubai Airshow, where Boeing is expected to formally launch the jet.

But despite the sales success, Boeing has felt intense competition from Airbus in recent weeks.

In September, the A350 won part of a major order from Deutsche Lufthansa (LHAG.DE) that had been expected to go to Boeing. In October, longtime Boeing customer Japan Airlines ordered the A350 over Boeing's competing bid with the 777X.

Buffenbarger said those concerns weigh into the timing and urgency for speeding up the 777X.

"We know we've got a horse race here," he said.

Boeing's effort to speed up the new jet marks a shift from its earlier aim of delivering the jet by 2020 or later.
"

No better info then what the main competitors thinks about the A350 program, they have seen the good execution in the last year with start of flight tests as wanted before Pairs Air show and then the exceptional fly rate of the prototypes, running through the tests with ease and reliability.



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User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4813 posts, RR: 40
Reply 158, posted (11 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 38666 times:
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Quoting ferpe (Reply 157):
Interersting facts about Boeings view on the A350 program comes in a interview with the IAM president by Reuters:

Those are interesting indeed.  


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12225 posts, RR: 34
Reply 159, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 37673 times:

More information about the derated A359 can be found here:

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....xml%2Fawx_11_18_2013_p0-637965.xml



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12225 posts, RR: 34
Reply 160, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 37019 times:

A nice picture of the A350 cockpit mockup at the Dubai air show.


A350 XWB Cockpit Mock-Up by EADSpics, on Flickr



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineTheRedBaron From Mexico, joined Mar 2005, 2264 posts, RR: 9
Reply 161, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 36954 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 160):

Great Picture, nice to see that the landing gear is still in its place !! I hope the red button on the sidestick is not a fire button! LOL.

TRB



The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12225 posts, RR: 34
Reply 162, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 36908 times:

Another nice picture, this time a belly view on the RAT:

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BZYJmqACUAA7vWD.png:largehttp://twitter.com/A350fans/status/402519776401969152



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineart From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3382 posts, RR: 1
Reply 163, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 36567 times:

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 7):
Why not just build a spare Beluga? The limited amount of Beluga's available is surly a project risk for all Airbus aircraft production, if they loose one through misshap it would cause chaos to production schedules.

Sounds like there is a risk that needs to be addressed ASAP.

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 9):
They definatly need to go A330 at some point but if they dusted off the A300-600 Beluga plans they could knock one up within a year, the basic airframe could be purchased for scrap value I would think.

I would say dust off the plans and do 2 to be on the safe side and increase capacity too even if 1 of the existing frames should cease to be available.


User currently offlineStTim From UK - England, joined Aug 2013, 811 posts, RR: 0
Reply 164, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 36545 times:

Better to get the 330 plans going. To build another 300 based Beluga will if fact be limiting longer term.

User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12225 posts, RR: 34
Reply 165, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 36576 times:

Don't worry, a new A330 based Beluga is under development. In the meantime, the current Beluga utilization will double in 2018.


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineBoeingVista From Australia, joined Jan 2009, 1581 posts, RR: 3
Reply 166, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 36238 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 159):
More information about the derated A359 can be found here:

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....5.xml

An interesting definition of 'regional' at 6800NM from Sydney an A350XWB regional could service DXB to the east and LAX to the west! The 'regional" version would be a very handy aircraft for Australian operators and others.



BV
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12225 posts, RR: 34
Reply 167, posted (11 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 35616 times:

The A350 blog released a few pictures of MSN2's cabin.

http://www.bloga350.blogspot.com/201...st-pictures-of-cabin-interior.html

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Cm7mR73Qg3E/UovbVQiq4II/AAAAAAAAJWw/vtV0pDZvL34/s1600/image.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-QyOylr1eaJo/Uovce9GXlRI/AAAAAAAAJXM/qyNx2Qhk-4w/s1600/image.jpg



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7786 posts, RR: 18
Reply 168, posted (11 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 35396 times:

How many are out of the FAL now?


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User currently offlineBoeingVista From Australia, joined Jan 2009, 1581 posts, RR: 3
Reply 169, posted (11 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 35315 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 167):

We can't quite be sure in pic 1 but it looks like unlike the 787 the insulation in the A350XWB goes right to the top of the cabin, presumably if the 787 was allowed to certify without it so could the XWB, so why (apart from safety) would Airbus take the weight penalty?



BV