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Frontier TTN Thread Part 5  
User currently offlineiowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4364 posts, RR: 6
Posted (9 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 13866 times:
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Here we go with part 5. Part four is archived but available for viewing here: Frontier TTN Thread Part 4 (by Jerseyguy Jul 25 2013 in Civil Aviation)


Next flights: WN DSM-LAS-PHX, US PHX-SJD. Return: US SJD-PHX, WN PHX-MDW-DSM
259 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16812 posts, RR: 51
Reply 1, posted (9 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 13854 times:

I was at the Pearl Jam show at the Wells Fargo Center last night in Philly. Huge Frontier airlines advertisements all around the Sports Complex on I-95 promoting TTN on those electric billboards.


Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24998 posts, RR: 85
Reply 2, posted (9 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 13813 times:
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From the previous thread:

"Any further expansion is probably not possible right now without a resolution of some kind to the NIMBYs."

Oh, probably, but I can't imagine what that resolution would be, other than to say that other places have fought this battle and there has always been a resolution.

Really, the only point of my list was to show that Frontier still has many potential choices from TTN, and I left out more than a few.

At some point, I guess they'll have to come to terms with the Gulf Coast - PNS or ECP perhaps, but there's also MOB, which presently has no service to the northeast at all (and which is where Airbus is building a vast new plant to build A320's, maybe some for Frontier - LOL) or maybe GSP.

North Carolina is pretty well covered (will they connect GSO to TTN?) but there's nothing to South Carolina yet. Ohio's getting there, but then there's Kentucky or Tennessee. - I dunno if Delta's latest, just announced cuts at MEM mean anything for Frontier, but maybe.

As to the terminal space - a year ago, I doubt anyone would have guessed there would be this level of service or the improvements that you list. I've no idea what the next twelve months will bring.

I suppose the biggest surprise to me is that given the high levels of air service on the East Coast, there are still so many opportunities and without treading on too many toes.

mariner

[Edited 2013-10-22 16:34:00]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3052 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (9 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 13763 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 2):
At some point, I guess they'll have to come to terms with the Gulf Coast - PNS or ECP perhaps, but there's also MOB

Because airframe availability seems to be an issue If TTN-MEM pans out perhaps their might be some sort of partner agreement with http://www.iflysouthern.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=pubDsp.dspRouteMap Southern flies to several Gulf Coast communities from Memphis. A little airport tweaking makes it possible.

Southern Airways Express flies into and out of secondary airports thus they would have to commit to MSY and MEM for two. I believe they operate as a charter operation under FAA guidelines.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineJerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1951 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (9 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 13737 times:
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Quoting mariner (Reply 2):
Oh, probably, but I can't imagine what that resolution would be, other than to say that other places have fought this battle and there has always been a resolution.

I guess what I meant was the FAA needs to give a definitive answer about an EIS and Mercer County (TTN) needs to know how far they can go without an EIS. Do temporary (modular) strutures not require an EIS (would a LGB trailer expansion work)? In the end they may just need to do an EIS, except for the fact that I'm sure its costly and time consuming.



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineFlytravel From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 873 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (9 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 13645 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 2):
North Carolina is pretty well covered (will they connect GSO to TTN?) but there's nothing to South Carolina yet.

It'd be nice for South Carolina like CHS that I mentioned before, but I know in the past (when WN flew PHL-RDU on low fares), many would rent a car at RDU and then be willing to drive 3-4 hours after that, since gasoline is cheap, weather is typically more pleasant in the Carolinas and there are no highway tolls between the regions. So, do RDU and CLT suffice as gateways for both NC and SC and would more service dilute demand to the existing service? I don't know.

Maybe CHS would be nice as an upscale alternative to NK's flights to MYR, as F9 is still a little more upscale than NK atleast right now, and CHS is more upscale as a vacation spot than MYR apparently.

Quoting point2point:

WIth that, a slight revision of the list in order of population of CSA......

BOS, DFW (or maybe too far at about 1350 miles?), MSP, CLE, STL, PIT, CLT, MCI, IND, MKE, BNA, ORF, GSO, JAX, SDF, GRR, GSP, MEM, BHM and even BUF or ROC for about the top 20 or so markets.

Here's my thoughts on a few:
BOS- maybe already covered low fare wise by B6 with EWR/PHL service around TTN but maybe F9 could try it out.

DFW- NK is running low fares out of PHL, and US is matching on advance purchase nonstops and WN on one-stops. TTN's runway maybe too short. I think the frequency would have to be atleast 5x weekly for either IAH or DFW (otherwise pax will choose a flight (direct or connect) at PHL or EWR), and it seems F9 would prefer TTN over ILG, but TTN has the runway issue.

MSP-beyond MDW and into the upper midwest. Longer flight and more risk taken. I can't see it on the radar or likely. WN doesn't even fly BWI-MSP nonstop because even WN knows its a long flight and one where likely more demand is business travel (in this case, preference for DCA) than stimulated demand travel.

But, maybe F9 could get a code-share with Sun Country that flies MDW-MSP. Thus one can do TTN-MDW-MSP and avoid flying WN for whatever reason while still using MDW. F9 and Sun Country are both in C concourse.

I think PIT and CLE are strong contenders. If it flew to TTN-PIT, one could drive to CLE, and CLE pax could drive to PIT. However, if it did TTN-CLE, I don't think PIT pax would drive to CLE to fly to TTN, as it's a backtrack.

Since F9 is already at PHF, maybe it'd do PHF-TTN over ORF. FL used to fly PHF-LGA and PHF-BOS and PHF-TTN could be like a NYC/Philly access.

GRR would be interesting as US lacks even PHL-GRR and service to Michigan is limited to just DTW from PHL. I know some that trek to BWI, connect in ORD or fly to DTW and rent a car just because of lack of PHL-GRR service and none are great options. There is EWR-GRR but the fares are ridiculous, over $1000.

[Edited 2013-10-22 20:17:52]

User currently offlineJerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1951 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (9 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 13624 times:
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Quoting Flytravel (Reply 5):
I think PIT and CLE are strong contenders.

It cost $31 in tolls and $40-50 in gas each way to drive to PIT from the TTN area, and PIT is only an hour plane ride from TTN, F9 could do a round trip in 3 hours, not very long to be missing an aircraft. Plus all the consturction on the PA Turnpike is tiring. Would F9 consider Youngstown. 1:15-1:20 to Pittsburgh and Cleveland has a terminal with 4 tarmac gates and even 2 Jetbridges. Costs would be lower. Alliegant flies to FL from there.

[Edited 2013-10-22 20:48:13]


Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24998 posts, RR: 85
Reply 7, posted (9 months 4 days ago) and read 13588 times:
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Daniel Shurz addressing the business lunch:

http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2...ead_at_trenton-mercer_airport.html

"Frontier Airlines executive: Blue skies ahead at Trenton-Mercer Airport

“We keep telling the airport that whatever additional capacity they make available, we’ll keep putting more planes in to use up the capacity,” Shurz said."


Not a lot of hard route news - still investigating non-stops to DEN (they want to do it, obviously) and a wee bit of talk about BOS.

But good stuff.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineJerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1951 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (9 months 4 days ago) and read 13587 times:
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Interesting article about a speech given at a Trenton Small Business luncheon by Daniel Schurz (Senior VP). I was going to actually go to this luncheon but I figured rightly there would be an article about his comments.

A few quote worthy comments

“We keep telling the airport that whatever additional capacity they make available, we’ll keep putting more planes in to use up the capacity,” Shurz said.
(WOW)

Also about BOS service (and other places within a 5 hour drive)
Frontier is hesitant about flying up to the Boston area because it is less that a 5-hour drive, and that tends to reduce the demand for flights, but the airline has considered it, Shurz said.

Quote on TTN-DEN service
The airline is also looking at how it can build a direct flight to Denver into the future plans at Trenton-Mercer, Shurz said, not only because the city is a great destination but also because it would present customers with the opportunity to take advantage of many connecting flights. Frontier is based in Denver and a direct flight from Trenton-Mercer to Denver would open connections as far as California, Alaska and Cancun.

http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2...ead_at_trenton-mercer_airport.html

Edited to say: seems Mariner beat me by about a minute to this.

[Edited 2013-10-22 21:25:30]


Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3052 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (9 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 13434 times:

Quoting Jerseyguy (Reply 6):
It cost $31 in tolls and $40-50 in gas each way to drive to PIT from the TTN area, and PIT is only an hour plane ride from TTN,

I wonder if State College in PA might be a better choice over PIT. State College is an hour drive from PIT. I still think F9 or perhaps even the TTN airport should consider entering into some sort of agreement with Megabus to stop at select airports. Megabus is widely recognized as the ULCC in motor coach travel.

Quoting mariner (Reply 7):

Quoting Shurz from the article "Frontier is hesitant about flying up to the Boston area because it is less than a 5-hour drive",

From my perch 6-7 hours bwtween TTN and BOS is more realistic at the wrong time of day w. I-95 in northern Jersey and the NYC area is atrocious. My driving route of choice which takes me across the Hudson on the Tappan Zee bridge has been known to back-up. Add to that the condition of I-95 in and around Providence area north of PVD to the Mass state-line was pothole (crater) ridden last year which slowed us down.

I use to drive from the North End area of Boston to the northern Maryland suburbs avoiding I-95 corridor for a more north mid Jersey Interstate in no less than 10-11 hours driving down Highway 15 through Harrisburg and Gettysburg.

Reading between the lines of Mr. Shurz statement about TTN-BOS takes on the appearance and potentally squashes PVD which is even closer to BOS driving the I-95 corridor.

I wonder if HVN might be an alternate airport roughly and hour between NYC and PVD and within the catchment area of two Ivy league schools; Yale and Brown. F9 seems to like Ivy league towns with Princeton and to a certain extent William & Mary near PHF.

I saw no less than seven flights today between TTN-HVN today on a BE20 puddle jumper which might indicate a need http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N636B



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineJerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1951 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (9 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 13311 times:
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Here's a shot of the progress being made on the 3rd major parking lot at TTN (it seems too big to be the small lot for cellphone use



For perspective on how big it is (From Google maps)



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlinen75jyv From United States of America, joined Sep 2013, 19 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (9 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 13269 times:

Quoting Jerseyguy (Reply 10):
(it seems too big to be the small lot for cellphone use

I saw that lot, too, during my last drive by. Wasn't there supposed to be a new "Employee Lot"? Could that be it? Seems maybe big for that, too (unless Frontier needs more space for local staff and crew). I assume that they'd keep the rental car parking closer in than that, but you never know.

On a separate topic, the prior schedule seemed to have two FR planes RON'ing at TTN. Wonder which of the local hotels picked up the business, or are some of the crews really somewhat local? With the expansion, do you think we'll see more than two planes overnight?

And last, I looked at the official Trenton Mercer site, and saw the listing of flights which landed between Midnight and 6am (during the voluntary curfew). I think there were 6 FR flights that came in at odd hours. Did the county actually run the parking shuttle buses at 2:45am (June 15)?

http://www.state.nj.us/counties/merc...artments/airport/air_activity.html


User currently offlineJerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1951 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (9 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 13217 times:
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Quoting n75jyv (Reply 11):
Did the county actually run the parking shuttle buses at 2:45am (June 15)?

Don't know for sure but when they mentioned how much the shuttle cost (I think it was $40,000 a month), they said it was for 20 hours 7 days a week. So what does that mean does it run from 6:00am to 2:00am the following morning, if so then I'm sure they would have held it for 45 minutes to accommodate the late inbound flight. Plus that may not have been a passenger flight at all, I know that they've had repo(sitioning) flights to replace one that was having a mechanical issue. I know on the May 24th 4:50am was a repo flight from Denver

Quoting n75jyv (Reply 11):
I saw that lot, too, during my last drive by. Wasn't there supposed to be a new "Employee Lot"? Could that be it? Seems maybe big for that, too (unless Frontier needs more space for local staff and crew). I assume that they'd keep the rental car parking closer in than that, but you never know.

Hmm..I don't know, based on my calculations with TSA, Mercer County Sherrifs Department, WFS (Frontier contractor) and the rental cars, you'd need atleast 50-65 spaces plus room for the cell phone lot. They had 630 spaces in the main lot in front of the terminal and 240 spaces in the secondary terminal lot. If they doubled that which I think is possible based on the amount of free space they had that would leave 115 spaces for the lot in question which might be right. It very well might be the Cell Phone/Employee/Rental Car lot.

Quoting n75jyv (Reply 11):
On a separate topic, the prior schedule seemed to have two FR planes RON'ing at TTN. Wonder which of the local hotels picked up the business, or are some of the crews really somewhat local? With the expansion, do you think we'll see more than two planes overnight?

Atleast during the Spring Break Period (Mid-February to End of April), I believe they will have 3 planes RONing there. Whether that stays after the end of the SB period is the question. Daniel Schurz did say whatever capacity they are given they will use so its possible they will keep the 3rd plane and announce a few (2-3) new destinations for the summer starting in May.

Oh and to answer your question about where the crew stays. On my return flight from Chicago in May, I did see flight crew get on a hotel shuttle bus. I believe it was the SpringHill Suites in Ewing which is less than 2 miles away in a corporate park. http://www.marriott.com/hotels/trave...hill-suites-ewing-princeton-south/

[Edited 2013-10-23 17:32:32]


Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3346 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (9 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 13189 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 9):
From my perch 6-7 hours bwtween TTN and BOS is more realistic at the wrong time of day w. I-95 in northern Jersey and the NYC area is atrocious.

4 hours is pretty reasonable if you hit no traffic and go with the flow of traffic much less from north jersey. I just dont see the demand on that route at all for frontier. Amtrak is the answer for someone who doenst want to drive and on that route people are gonna want and be use to frequency. Amtrak is awesome on that route and very affordable if you book ahead and have AAA. Frontier has no business flying TTN-BOS and their model wouldnt work on that route its way too close and amtrak is too good. Frontier is NOT getting or looking for business travellers, the leisure crowd on that route is gonna take amtrak or just drive for the weekend. TTN is much better for less than daily leisure travellers who are flying to destinations where they are flexible on dates/times aka vacationers or visiting family. They cannot support business travel nor is that the market anyone thinks Frontier is getting at TTN they are ULCC leisure especially out of TTN. BOS is probably the best example of a market they shoudln't fly from TTN IMHO.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24998 posts, RR: 85
Reply 14, posted (9 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 13160 times:
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Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 9):
Quoting Shurz from the article "Frontier is hesitant about flying up to the Boston area because it is less than a 5-hour drive",


TTN-BOS is obviously on their minds and on the minds of some of their pax - why else would DS even mention it?

I think there's an answer, but I'll leave them to sort it out.  

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineJA From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 563 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (9 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 13033 times:

It is 3 hours to the Bronx with no traffic. 4.5 hours is the minimum to the Trenton area and 5.5 to 6 hours is more like it under standard conditions. BOS is potentially a Massport issue with space and/or price.

User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3052 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (9 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 12931 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 14):
TTN-BOS is obviously on their minds and on the minds of some of their pax - why else would DS even mention it?

I suspect BOS is being discussed because NK offers service there. Even though Franke has a sold his stake in NK; he will probably want to tread lightly for a while. A cooling down period of sorts.

F9 and Massport were said to be in a pis*ing contest a few years ago when F9 served the city from DEN. Massport also manages ORH (Worcester, MA ) so I don't think it would be their either if the bru-ha-ha still exist. With that said F9 was under different management,

I personally would like to see F9 set up shop at PVD, PSM, MHT in that order. I think PSM is a no brainer seasonally. I think PVD to the south and PSM to the north takes car of BOS and everything in between. Maine tourism who drive NH/Maine Route 1 (the Maine coastal route) catch route 1 not to far from PSM. PWM is forty miles north and requires a easterly deviation to connect up with Route 1. I-95 and the Maine Turnpike are very toll driven.

As we arm chair potentially new markets I think we should look at markets not currently served by NK, BOS is one of those markets http://www.spirit.com/RouteMaps.aspx

Quoting JA (Reply 15):

That's more realistic. When I use to commute into Boston from the south shore. Fifteen minutes either side of 6:00 AM made all of the difference at 5:45 I flowed; after 6:00 AM I slowed. It was a good 4.5 hours from BOS to the Hudson.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24998 posts, RR: 85
Reply 17, posted (9 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 12907 times:
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Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 16):
I think PVD to the south and PSM to the north takes car of BOS and everything in between.

  

I'm a big fan of PSM, especially in summer.

I remember the battles between Frontier and Massport when they were remodelling Terminal A, which left no gate for Frontier and Massport told 'em to go to MHT or PVD - or pound sand.

I use BOS as a proxy for "New England" and I'd love to see 'em set up shop somewhere instead of BOS. PSM? PVD? MHT? Don't care.

Really, there are so many choices. IND - Republic's home base - being one. And I never understood Frontier's first foray into MEM because it was a Northwest hub and Frontier had just been bloodied by NWA on LAX-MSP - but I understand DEN-MEM now, with Delta busy dehubbing MEM, and I would understand MEM-TTN, which would have minimal competition.

But that keeps coming back to how many flights TTN can physically handle. The day before Thanksgiving should be interesting, when some stations (MDW, DTW and RDU e.g.) have double daily flights and we'll see how the airport copes.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineFlytravel From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 873 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (9 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 12874 times:

PVD-TTN is likely too short but PVD-DEN on 4 or 5x weekly would provide DEN back with service to New England on F9 and PVD with DEN as WN is leaving the route to focus on BOS-DEN. PVD is the second busiest airport in the Boston CSA and has train access to Boston.

As for TTN, I hope the owners are not applying the 5 hour drive rule to discount TTN-PIT's viability. BOS has train and B6 access, but PIT from Philly doesn't have low fare access except by bus.

If new direction of F9 follows NK in approach with multiple focus cities instead of hubs, PIT would be an ideal small focus and F9 could fly PIT-PVD as well, PIT-TTN and other routes, maybe PIT-MSY.


User currently offlineFrontier14 From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 186 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (9 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 12839 times:

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 18):
If new direction of F9 follows NK in approach with multiple focus cities instead of hubs, PIT would be an ideal small focus and F9 could fly PIT-PVD as well, PIT-TTN and other routes, maybe PIT-MSY.

Indigo's efforts with Wizz Air and Volaris may show us a sample layout of what focus cities may look like for F9 in the future. Wizz has a main hub like presence in the greater London area, and more or less focus cities in Poland and Central Europe. Outside of the London location, the other focus cities seem to have 15-20 destinations that are point to point. Some of these destinations do have more than one daily frequency while others are daily or less than daily. In addition, some cities Wizz flies to has service to an additional five or six destinations themselves that are not focus locations, again which may be daily or less than daily.

In looking at the Volaris route map a similar pattern is apparent with the secondary Mexico City airport being the main hub and a large focus city in Tijuana. Volaris routes are similar in pattern and structure to Wizz. I have not looked yet at the other Indigo interests but would expect to find similar route planning pattens/strategies.

What is noticeable with both Wizz and Volaris is that there are a number of shorter functional p2p routes from the focus airports, as well as p2p service from outlier airports to other locations, and a mix of long haul flights which some are to the hub/focus airports and others probably tourist spots. Each seems to have some seasonal service factored in.

It would be my guess too that we will see a similar pattern emerge with F9's future route planning. PIT has been mentioned and it sounds reasonable. I would venture to say that airport costs three may be high given the US pull down and large number of excess gates, as well as other vacant facilities at the field. All of these are costing infastructure $$ that could increase F9 operating costs our of the facility. Perhaps they could get a break from the Alleghaney Authority to sign on.

Once we get a picture of what the fleet acquisition >2014 will look like, I think it will be fun to speculate what focus cities (20-30 departures/day) might come about after the first of the year. Several in the east and perhaps a couple of spots west of the Mississippi and in the west. Here are a few that might have some possibilities given Indigo's other interests:
IND, MCI, OMA, LAS, CAE, MEM, LEX, MKE, SDF, GSO, MSY, OKC, TUL to name a few. What do you think?

Frontier 14


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24998 posts, RR: 85
Reply 20, posted (9 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 12668 times:
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Quoting Frontier14 (Reply 19):
IND, MCI, OMA, LAS, CAE, MEM, LEX, MKE, SDF, GSO, MSY, OKC, TUL to name a few.

I think the most interesting one on that list might be CAE, which has no LCC service at all. When Southwest was toying with that neck of the woods, CAE was prepared to throw $15 million at 'em, but Southwest went to CHS/GSP instead.

CAE took it very badly and said it didn't really want LCC's anyway, and would concentrate on its legacy airlines. But then it calmed down and a deal was in the works for them to be able to offer $10 million to attract LCC service:

http://www.columbiabusinessreport.com/news/34064/print

"Compromise would give Columbia $10M to lure airline"

If it went through, I'm amazed that no one has taken it up, but with or without the $10 million they're keen.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineJerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1951 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (9 months 1 day ago) and read 12570 times:
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Quoting mariner (Reply 20):
CAE took it very badly and said it didn't really want LCC's anyway, and would concentrate on its legacy airlines. But then it calmed down and a deal was in the works for them to be able to offer $10 million to attract LCC service:

Columbia is just a little bit too far to be an alternate for Charleston but with a subsidy, so they'd be guaranteed not to lose money they might just want to try it Columbia's problem is that they are within an hour and a half to Charlotte.



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24998 posts, RR: 85
Reply 22, posted (9 months 20 hours ago) and read 12523 times:
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Quoting Jerseyguy (Reply 21):
Columbia's problem is that they are within an hour and a half to Charlotte.

GSP is a bit closer to CLT and yet Southwest serves both, flying to mostly the same places from each.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3052 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (9 months 14 hours ago) and read 12453 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 20):

CAE has just shy of a 132K populous. It does seem to have a higher than the national average unemployment rate at 9.2% Here are some stats provide by the visitors bureau http://www.columbiacvb.com/ and some additional city statistics http://www.city-data.com/city/Columbia-South-Carolina.html



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineJerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1951 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (9 months 12 hours ago) and read 12416 times:
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Quoting mariner (Reply 22):
GSP is a bit closer to CLT and yet Southwest serves both, flying to mostly the same places from each.
GSP has the Asheville Area where its harder to get to CLT because of the lack of a direct freeway. Also GSP only has limited WN flights (1x to BWI, BNA and HOU, 2x to MDW). CAE might pickup some of the West Suburbs of Charleston but with a subsidy its worth a try

TTN will or has a defacto slot system do to its terminal capacity though.so if we'll see CHS or SAV first before we see CAE.

[Edited 2013-10-26 09:10:21]


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User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2740 posts, RR: 1
Reply 25, posted (9 months 12 hours ago) and read 12473 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 20):
CAE took it very badly and said it didn't really want LCC's anyway, and would concentrate on its legacy airlines. But then it calmed down and a deal was in the works for them to be able to offer $10 million to attract LCC service:

http://www.columbiabusinessreport.com/news/34064/print

"Compromise would give Columbia $10M to lure airline"

If it went through, I'm amazed that no one has taken it up, but with or without the $10 million they're keen.

With some $10M on the table, if only F9 had some spare birds, there could be a range of destinations that F9 could attempt from there and not have there behinds burned.......

Quoting Frontier14 (Reply 19):
what focus cities (20-30 departures/day)
Quoting Frontier14 (Reply 19):
IND, MCI, OMA, LAS, CAE, MEM, LEX, MKE, SDF, GSO, MSY, OKC, TUL to name a few.

If these above were to be eventual destinations with connections to DEN or TTN (or possibly ILG) and F9 had the birds, then as pax increase and $$$$$ increase in the F9 coffers, then these additions would obviously be welcome.


But on the other hand, if these were just to be some sort of focus cities in themselves............

Oy vey...... yes, feel free to call me the Debbie Downer here...... and it seems that every time F9 ventures away from DEN..... $$$$$ in the millions just seem to vanish from the F9 coffers ever so quickly........ and the only reason that maybe (let's make that big MAYBE!) CAE looks as even to be considered is the $10M on the table there. F9 has been, currently is...... and will most likely continue to be a DEN-centric carrier in just about all of its facets. That TTN (and possibly ILG) are showing something of possible $$$$$ increases into the coffers is remarkable, but shouldn't be overly pushed...... if it's there, take it, but expansion for its own sake is usually lethal.

I would really like to see F9 expand in all sorts of ways...... but somehow....... it's always much too costly outside of DEN. And I certainly hope that Indigo takes a serious look at all of the past of F9...... before it possibly (probably) losses millions of $$$$$ with ex-DEN expansions....... and that someday F9 doesn't find itself in BK..... where there is not a way out.......

But a lot can be started with the $10M from CAE.......... and that would be the best bet to start ex-DEN for at least this is, for now....... - other people's money - .......

 


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24998 posts, RR: 85
Reply 26, posted (9 months 10 hours ago) and read 12458 times:
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Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 23):
CAE has just shy of a 132K populous.

The MSA is almost 800,000.   

Quoting point2point (Reply 25):
if it's there, take it, but expansion for its own sake is usually lethal.
DEN-centric Frontier has one over-riding problem - winter. At any point in the its history, no matter how well it did the rest of the year, winter was always the financial drain, long before Southwest.

All the skiers and all the the south of the border service are peanuts compared with the northeast to Florida snowbird traffic, which was the initial bread and butter basis of JetBlue's success, and Spirit, and Allegiant's first choice after LAS was established.

Siegel knows the east coast as well as anyone, and this was his policy from the git-go - he was fairly open about it. He did it quite cautiously, with a limited fleet and p2p routes to MCO. For a time it looked as if ABE might get more service, until the airport played games with costs and TTN revealed itself. As Shurz said:

" The company has, however, exceeded the goals that it set for the area."

You can knock me down with a feather that TTN-CMH seems to be surviving through winter and the strength of TTN-RDU has surprised me. Even MSY did well - 87% load factor - but because of the seasonality and the limited fleet there were other priorities. I'm told the intention is that MSY will come back once the fleet loosens up.

DEN has always been Frontier's greatest strength, but has also been the airline''s biggest liability. Reliance on the single hub made the airline vulnerable to attack, which is what happened - all the eggs were in one basket.

mariner

[Edited 2013-10-26 11:32:30]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineFlytravel From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 873 posts, RR: 0
Reply 27, posted (9 months 9 hours ago) and read 12498 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 26):
The MSA is almost 800,000.

The CSA is larger and CAE can pull from Augusta, GA. But, I'm not sure where F9 will fly profitably from CAE (maybe CAE-DEN?)

Quoting mariner (Reply 26):
For a time it looked as if ABE might get more service, until the airport played games with costs and TTN revealed itself.

Yeah, ABE-MCO got canned for TTN-MCO and TTN evolved ever since. But, I wonder with the lack of ability for F9 to fly TTN-DEN, if ABE interest via ABE-DEN might make sense. Allegiant has picked up a lot of Florida, but still lacks ABE-FLL. I know there is a growing Latino population in the Lehigh Valley and the cultural ties along with the leisure would make sense for FLL direct service from ABE.

For DEN, arguably, if someone from Bridgewater has been supporting F9 now at TTN and is well aware of the carrier, to reach DEN or west coast, they could use ILG (110 miles away) or LGA (NYC traffic/tolls) but most likely, the pax will choose another carrier (UA or WN) at EWR. Amongst the F9 options and easy drive/park options, neither are really as easy as driving west for 52 miles to ABE. Plus it has the niche that US, UA, WN aren't flying the route and there is population from Hazleton/Scranton north of ABE.


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3052 posts, RR: 1
Reply 28, posted (9 months 7 hours ago) and read 12449 times:

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 27):
they could use ILG (110 miles away)

If I'm understanding correctly; I looked at two airport distance calculators one read 58 statute miles between TTN-ILG and the other 58. Not sure where the 110 came from.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineJerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1951 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (9 months 5 hours ago) and read 12420 times:
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Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 28):
If I'm understanding correctly; I looked at two airport distance calculators one read 58 statute miles between TTN-ILG and the other 58. Not sure where the 110 came from.

Flytravel is talking about if someone where to live in Bridgewater NJ (about 25 miles SW of Newark), they would be approximately 35 miles from TTN (50 minutes due to a lack of freeways) but would be 99 miles (via I-95 (free)) and 108 miles (via the NJ Turnpike (Toll)). It would take around 2 hours to get from Bridgewater to ILG. They were saying it would be better for the people who are north of TTN to go to ABE instead of ILG and that F9 should consider doing ABE to DEN.

I'm not as worried as they seem to be interested in finding a way to do TTN-DEN. I wouldn't expect it before summer as that is their busy time between the PHL area and DEN. With Indigo wanting to invest in F9 and they are pretty happy with TTN they might just invest in whatever the right plane is.



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24998 posts, RR: 85
Reply 30, posted (9 months 5 hours ago) and read 12408 times:
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Quoting Flytravel (Reply 27):
The CSA is larger and CAE can pull from Augusta, GA. But, I'm not sure where F9 will fly profitably from CAE (maybe CAE-DEN?)

I'm only thinking of TTN, I'm not looking for potential focus cities. I also think it is impossible to second guess Daniel Shurz, but there may be some clues in what he said:

"There is a huge potential market for flights in the area, but it is important to focus on routes that will have a high volume of customers and less low-cost competition, Shurz said."

BMI, for example, where Frontier has done well, has no service to the northeast (and had a SCASD grant of $750,000 for such service in 2012). I don't know if Frontier would pick it up for TTN, but the airport would be keen.

I think a lot of airports would be keen, I think it is wide open at TTN

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 27):
But, I wonder with the lack of ability for F9 to fly TTN-DEN, if ABE interest via ABE-DEN might make sense.

Not to dismiss ABE, which may still have some potential, but by hook, crook or broomstick, I think Frontier will find a way to fly TTN-DEN.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2740 posts, RR: 1
Reply 31, posted (8 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 12319 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 26):
The MSA is almost 800,000.

Hmmmmm..... those stat wallahs, eh?.......

Quoting mariner (Reply 26):
DEN has always been Frontier's greatest strength, but has also been the airline''s biggest liability. Reliance on the single hub made the airline vulnerable to attack, which is what happened - all the eggs were in one basket.

Well, at least this basket at DEN has yet to be cracked though, ...... correct?

Quoting mariner (Reply 26):
winter was always the financial drain

That's why $10M at CAE is rather appealing at the moment....... and a few routes CAE to/from DEN, MDW, TTN, ILG, BOS, MCO, FLL...... maybe develop a focus city there with $10M? And if the folks there decide that F9 doesn't suit them, well........

And as for TTN (IAG)..... indications are that they seem to be producing positive $$$$$ for F9, so keep things there positive.

Quoting Jerseyguy (Reply 29):
finding a way to do TTN-DEN

There's probably still a number of destinations the have pax traffic that aren't served nonstop to/from DEN. BUF, ALB, ROC, RIC, CHS, PNS and PBI are among the largest that could be supported on O&D alone, at least seasonally and/or maybe sub-daily. Then the recently dropped routes from WN of PVD and MHT at least in summertime could do quite well maybe?

But before anything, I guess that F9 needs to get some more birds to put in the air. With their fleet as is..... they have to go where they get the most bang for the $$$$$.

 


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24998 posts, RR: 85
Reply 32, posted (8 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 12306 times:
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Quoting point2point (Reply 31):
Hmmmmm..... those stat wallahs, eh?.......

Whatever works.  
Quoting point2point (Reply 31):
Well, at least this basket at DEN has yet to be cracked though, ...... correct?

Only because Southwest blew the auction, everything springs from that. The DEN hub is what it always was - the greatest strength and the biggest liability.

Everything that happens beyond DEN - TTN, ILG, even CUN and PUJ - helps to reinforce DEN by making the airline less vulnerable - slowly, route by route.

Quoting point2point (Reply 31):
That's why $10M at CAE is rather appealing at the moment....... and a few routes CAE to/from DEN, MDW, TTN, ILG, BOS, MCO, FLL...... maybe develop a focus city there with $10M? And if the folks there decide that F9 doesn't suit them, well........

As above, I'm only looking at routes to TTN and I think the creation of whatever TTN is going to be is fascinating. I am sure this must have happened before, somewhere, but it is new to me - an airline creating a whatever you want to call it - at an airport that did not have any other commercial service at the time, and had not for some years.

As the Shurz article says, they are having to sell the airport as well as the airline and I am intrigued to see what happens next. One of the things that may have to happen is some expansion of the terminal space.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineFlytravel From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 873 posts, RR: 0
Reply 33, posted (8 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 12220 times:

Quoting Jerseyguy (Reply 6):
It cost $31 in tolls and $40-50 in gas each way to drive to PIT from the TTN area, and PIT is only an hour plane ride from TTN, F9 could do a round trip in 3 hours, not very long to be missing an aircraft. Plus all the consturction on the PA Turnpike is tiring. Would F9 consider Youngstown. 1:15-1:20 to Pittsburgh and Cleveland has a terminal with 4 tarmac gates and even 2 Jetbridges. Costs would be lower. Alliegant flies to FL from there.

I found an old article from January of this year, that PIT was seeking more service:
http://www.post-gazette.com/business...-destinations/stories/201301180170

In there, however, was that: "William R. Lauer, an Allegheny Capital Inc. principal who has followed the industry for years, said the airport's high cost per passenger, at $14.66, may discourage airlines from taking a chance on a new route."

I wonder if this is more the deal breaker for F9 to launch PIT-TTN/ILG than the distance.. Besides the fees, some of the profit of a route likely comes from pax that book on short notice, say on TTN-MDW and will pay over $200 for the fare for a trip next Friday.

I don't think F9 could get that on a short route like PIT-TTN and then the airport cost per passenger eats up the already low fare for the advance purchase ticket. WN however keeps PIT-BWI, shorter, but I think WN gets some specific business traffic demand for Pittsburgh based pax that work in DC region or Annapolis or Montgomery Co., and the flight times work for day trip from PIT to DC/MD.

One alternative for F9 if it wants to reduce costs would be to use LBE like NK, and fly TTN-LBE.


User currently offlineJerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1951 posts, RR: 0
Reply 34, posted (8 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 12193 times:
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Quoting Flytravel (Reply 33):
One alternative for F9 if it wants to reduce costs would be to use LBE like NK, and fly TTN-LBE.

LBE is one option. If the western suburbs of Pittsburgh and the eastern suburbs of Cleveland have enough population you could do YNG (Youngstown, OH) and be and alternate for both Cleveland and Pittsburgh.



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineJerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1951 posts, RR: 0
Reply 35, posted (8 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 12137 times:
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Took a ride by the terminal at TTN today. I took a shot of what I'm hoping is not the modular baggage claim. Couldn't get a good look but it looks small and ugly.




Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24998 posts, RR: 85
Reply 36, posted (8 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 11898 times:
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As in this thread, Airbus has just announced that a retrofits of sharklets for the A319 are now available:

Airbus Offer: Retrofit For A319 & A320 Sharklets (by Bogi Oct 29 2013 in Civil Aviation)

Airbus also lists the improvements the sharklets give:

http://www.airbus.com/aircraftfamili...ft/a320family/a319/specifications/

"Offered as optional equipment on new production A320-series aircraft, Sharklets provide aerodynamic improvements that result in multiple benefits for operators – including lower fuel burn, reduced emissions, increased range and payload, better take-off performance and rate-of-climb, higher optimum altitude and reduced engine maintenance costs"

Obviously, "better take-off performance and rate of climb" caught my eye and being the least technically-minded person on a.net I'll ask what may be a dumb question: is this what Frontier needs for TTN-DEN?

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3052 posts, RR: 1
Reply 37, posted (8 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 11848 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 36):
Sharklets provide aerodynamic improvements that result in multiple benefits for operators – including lower fuel burn, reduced emissions, increased range and payload, better take-off performance and rate-of-climb, higher optimum altitude and reduced engine maintenance costs"

It sounds like sharklets do everything but fly the plane.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinePITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 3124 posts, RR: 4
Reply 38, posted (8 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 11799 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 9):

I wonder if State College in PA might be a better choice over PIT. State College is an hour drive from PIT.

Pittsburgh to State College is an almost 3 hour drive, and its not all freeway. Pittsburgh truly is in no man's land.

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 33):
I found an old article from January of this year, that PIT was seeking more service:
http://www.post-gazette.com/business...-destinations/stories/201301180170

In there, however, was that: "William R. Lauer, an Allegheny Capital Inc. principal who has followed the industry for years, said the airport's high cost per passenger, at $14.66, may discourage airlines from taking a chance on a new route."

I wonder if this is more the deal breaker for F9 to launch PIT-TTN/ILG than the distance

The incentive program however eliminates landing fees for one year and cuts them in half for the second year. Or like you said there is always LBE. If F9 is in TTN for the long haul, I think it is only a matter of time before they try the PIT market. Perhaps PIT-DEN as well if it increases a/c utilization.



FLYi
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24998 posts, RR: 85
Reply 39, posted (8 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 11755 times:
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Take for whatever you think it is worth, but according to TheStreet.com, which is a reasonably reputable Wall Street paper, a deal with the pilots is in place for the acquisition:

http://www.thestreet.com/story/12087...o-deal.html?puc=yahoo&cm_ven=YAHOO

"Frontier Pilots on Board with Indigo Deal

"A fair deal is in place," one source familiar with the pilot negotiations said. "Pilots are no longer an issue."


mariner

[Edited 2013-10-29 19:41:28]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinen75jyv From United States of America, joined Sep 2013, 19 posts, RR: 0
Reply 40, posted (8 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 11706 times:

Quoting Jerseyguy (Reply 35):
Took a ride by the terminal at TTN today. I took a shot of what I'm hoping is not the modular baggage claim. Couldn't get a good look but it looks small and ugly.

That structure has been there for some time.... don't think it has anything to do with baggage claim. I drove by on Scotch Road and looks like the EMAS is done.


User currently offlineJerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1951 posts, RR: 0
Reply 41, posted (8 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 11694 times:
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Yeah, I just saw a pic of the terminal taken in April from the Tarmac and it was there too.

Quoting mariner (Reply 39):

Glad to hear the pilots have agreed on a deal Without a deal the outlook didn't look good.



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24998 posts, RR: 85
Reply 42, posted (8 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 11541 times:
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Quoting Jerseyguy (Reply 41):
Glad to hear the pilots have agreed on a deal Without a deal the outlook didn't look good.

Well, it isn't a done deal until it is announced and it hasn't been officially announced yet, but I would be very surprised if it fell apart on the pilots agreement.

The Frontier pilots, and their leadership, have always seemed to me to be a rational and cohesive group, not only with their own interests in mind, but also those of the airline as a stand-alone survivor. It was the pilots who provided the first fly in the ointment on the Southwest offer, and it was the FAPA agreement that started the ball rolling to separation.

Anyone can say they might have been better off at Southwest, but they didn't see it that way. They surely were not happy about losing their union - FAPA - and there was antipathy with the Republic pilots, but this may resolve those issues and restart the union.

Because I assume that, once separated, the pilots will vote to be out of the IBT and revive FAPA - which, presumably, is what the IBT is battling to avoid - and this may give FAPA common ground with Indigo.

There's an interesting blog written by a pilot applicant, who interviewed in August, was accepted and was part of the first pilot class in September. He reported his interview in great detail, as gouge for others, and said:

http://www.willflyforfood.com/pilot-...erviews/141/Frontier-Airlines.html

"About 9 am, they herded us into the auditorium where we met the Chief Pilot and the HR team, as well as the volunteer escorts. In what may have made the biggest impression on me all day, the volunteer escorts were a half a dozen guys flying the line, who came in on their day off, volunteering to show us around, answer questions, shoot the bull, and generally give us their impressions of the company. They spanned the spectrum, from the #1 line captain to the second to bottom FO.

Class act, in my opinion."


I'm not saying this is unique to Frontier - I'm sure it may happen at other airlines - and perhaps the impression on the applicant is not unique. I'm simply suggesting that after all the trials and tribulations of the past few years, that cohesive and positive attitude, the band of brothers, appears to be still there at Frontier, and it may be surprising to some.

So - assuming the Indigo deal does go through - I shall be very interested to watch what the IBT does next, because now they would be dealing with the cohesive Frontier pilots in bed with William Franke, who is one smart cookie, but bloody-minded tough and no great fan of overly-aggressive unions.

For me, it may be one of the more interesting things about the deal, because I love to watch legal battles, like high-stakes poker games. So far - so far - it seems to me that the IBT doesn't have a very good hand, which is why it is crying "foul."  

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineLexy From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 2515 posts, RR: 9
Reply 43, posted (8 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 11510 times:

F9 at MEM would be a flop. O & D is too low for one.


Nashville, Tennessee KBNA
User currently offlineLexy From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 2515 posts, RR: 9
Reply 44, posted (8 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 11514 times:

I don't see how a hub for F9 would work at MEM. It's not a huge market for O & D traffic and it's not a huge draw nationally. Perhaps if you want to connect people it could work, but otherwise I don't see it working for them. That despite the cheap landing fees thanks to FX.


Nashville, Tennessee KBNA
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24998 posts, RR: 85
Reply 45, posted (8 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 11507 times:
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Quoting Lexy (Reply 43):
F9 at MEM would be a flop. O & D is too low for one.
Quoting Lexy (Reply 44):
I don't see how a hub for F9 would work at MEM.

MEM as a hub for Frontier, or even a focus city? Gosh, I hope not - Frontier's already been there and tried that and Northwest went nuclear.

But - times have changed, Northwest isn't around anymore and Delta is cutting back at MEM, especially MEM-PHL, which is being reduced to 1 x daily.

So given that no one else flies the route - not even, surprisingly, US Airways - and given the way things are going at MEM, I wouldn't actually fall over in shock to see Frontier add MEM-TTN or ILG.

 

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3052 posts, RR: 1
Reply 46, posted (8 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 11338 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 45):
especially MEM-PHL, which is being reduced to 1 x daily.

Courtesy the OAG threads; DL is also pulling down MEM-CMH in February and MEM-MKE in January. I don't think a demand for MEM-CMH exist but might we see a return to MKE. CLT also looses a little capacity from MEM

DL MEM-CLT JAN 3>1.5 FEB 3>1.6 MAR 3>1.7 APR 3>1.7 MAY 3>1.7 JUN 3>1.7
DL MEM-CMH DEC 0.7>0.3 JAN 0.8>0.1 FEB 0.9>0 MAR 0.8>0 APR 0.9>0 MAY 0.8>0 JUN 0.9>0
DL MEM-MKE DEC 0.6>0.1 JAN 0.8>0 FEB 0.9>0 MAR 0.8>0 APR 0.9>0 MAY 0.8>0 JUN 0.9>0



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineLexy From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 2515 posts, RR: 9
Reply 47, posted (8 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 11268 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 45):
MEM as a hub for Frontier, or even a focus city? Gosh, I hope not - Frontier's already been there and tried that and Northwest went nuclear.

But - times have changed, Northwest isn't around anymore and Delta is cutting back at MEM, especially MEM-PHL, which is being reduced to 1 x daily.

So given that no one else flies the route - not even, surprisingly, US Airways - and given the way things are going at MEM, I wouldn't actually fall over in shock to see Frontier add MEM-TTN or ILG.

I agree 100%. MEM is not a gold mine that DL is just giving up on. There's a very good reason it's losing it's "hub" status outside the obvious (ATL).



Nashville, Tennessee KBNA
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24998 posts, RR: 85
Reply 48, posted (8 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 11142 times:
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Quoting Lexy (Reply 47):
MEM is not a gold mine that DL is just giving up on. There's a very good reason it's losing it's "hub" status outside the obvious (ATL).

At the same time, there is a reason MEM was a hub in the first place and for an airline that isn't going to expand at ATL, MEM might have some value for a route or three.

The concept of MEM-DEN, MEM-TTN (or ILG) and MEM to somewhere in Florida and/or MEM-CUN or even PUJ might make sense.

The same could be said of STL, which has seven routes to south of the border - and DEN - but nothing to the northeast yet.

Or several places. Partly because of the perceived strength of TTN, just about every disregarded or under-used airport is looking at Frontier as a potential (or expanded) tenant. When the deal with Indigo was announced, Milwaukee immediately saw a possible return of Frontier.

Well - maybe.

Frontier (or Republic) is still paying the leases for bunch of gates at MKE, and I can perhaps see MKE-TTN (or ILG) and maybe MKE-MCO comes back and CUN continues. I don't see much more than that unless those routes prove to be gangbusters but anything is possible because it's different today.

Yesterday was the deadline for union agreements for the Indigo sale. If they have been resolved and it has gone through, then Frontier has new management as of today, nominally if not in full control yet, and, presumably, there may be some new or different priorities.

I would be surprised if it hasn't gone through because that would materially affect the Republic stock price and there should have been some statement of state of play, even if only an extension of the deadline. I guess it could happen tomorrow morning, but I think the SEC would be cross because early trading starts at sparrow fart, or even before.

I suppose it's always possible that it hasn't gone through but that's a whole new ball game as well because I'm not sure there is a fully imagined Plan B, and even if there is I doubt we'd see too much growth at least until it's sorted out.

So in either event, whatever happened, it's different today.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineLexy From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 2515 posts, RR: 9
Reply 49, posted (8 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 11001 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 48):
At the same time, there is a reason MEM was a hub in the first place and for an airline that isn't going to expand at ATL, MEM might have some value for a route or three.

The concept of MEM-DEN, MEM-TTN (or ILG) and MEM to somewhere in Florida and/or MEM-CUN or even PUJ might make sense.

The same could be said of STL, which has seven routes to south of the border - and DEN - but nothing to the northeast yet.

Or several places. Partly because of the perceived strength of TTN, just about every disregarded or under-used airport is looking at Frontier as a potential (or expanded) tenant. When the deal with Indigo was announced, Milwaukee immediately saw a possible return of Frontier.

I can see your point and it makes sense to me. One thing, though, if I'm looking in that general direction, I have to wonder about BNA. It has good O & D, a good amount of expansion possibilities, a growing business base (new convention center and large corporate base), good tourist appeal, good national appeal, and it's just growing well despite many cities it's size. The drawback there is the WN Focus City.

I'm not talking about F9 doing anything there over what they already do. Their model wouldn't fit the business traveler or premium customer at all.

In reference to MEM, I think we all can agree it was a hub for much longer than it "should've" been. It's unlike a lot of hubs in the US in that it's in a smaller market, a stagnant region, and propped up by cheap fees thanks to FX.



Nashville, Tennessee KBNA
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24998 posts, RR: 85
Reply 50, posted (8 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 10989 times:
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Quoting Lexy (Reply 49):
One thing, though, if I'm looking in that general direction, I have to wonder about BNA.

Sure, BNA - but there are a number of others and I haven't yet worked out a pattern or even if there is a pattern. So I just use Daniel Shurz's comment - large populations with little low fare competition.

The drawback to TTN-BNA might be Southwest's PHL-BNA, but Southwest's PHL-MDW doesn't seem to affect TTN-MDW - or maybe it does but there is sufficient traffic for both. I see Southwest is starting PHL-ATL - that'll be interesting because I wonder if Frontier (ULCC) at TTN is actually a different market from Southwest (LCC) at PHL.

Daniel Shurz's comment about Southwest raising fares (to Frontier's advantage) was made in reference to DEN, but I assume it applies to TTN as well. And not to forget ILG.

I'd raise an eyebrow, though, if Frontier stated TTN-MYR (much as I'd love to see it) because Spirit flies both PHL-MYR and ACY-MYR - unless Indigo is ready to take on Spirit, which it may be. See above - the rules are different now.

And I don't know how much attention Frontier pays to the south of the border routes, but if it does that lines up PIT, IND and CLE for TTN service.

Quoting Lexy (Reply 49):
In reference to MEM, I think we all can agree it was a hub for much longer than it "should've" been. It's unlike a lot of hubs in the US in that it's in a smaller market, a stagnant region, and propped up by cheap fees thanks to FX.

  

Few people were more scathing about Frontier's first foray into MEM than I was - I called it "the mystery of MEM" - LOL.

But things really were different then (Northwest and, oddly, Airtran) and limited MEM service might do very well, especially for a low fare carrier.

mariner

[Edited 2013-11-01 13:27:41]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineJerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1951 posts, RR: 0
Reply 51, posted (8 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 10961 times:
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Quoting mariner (Reply 50):
Southwest's PHL-MDW doesn't seem to affect TTN-MDW - or maybe it does but there is sufficient traffic for both

Southwest is so much more expensive then Frontier in this market. Southwest starts at $139 for the winter months (thru Mid-March) and Frontier starts at $49. Southwest past March is starting at $193. Frontier has some $59-69 fares. Combo between pulling from EWR as well and the low fares, they are able to carve out a there own passengers. Though EWR is more competitive with $99 for winter and $119 (Mar-June).



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineFlytravel From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 873 posts, RR: 0
Reply 52, posted (8 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 10965 times:

Quoting Jerseyguy (Reply 51):
Southwest is so much more expensive then Frontier in this market. Southwest starts at $139 for the winter months (thru Mid-March) and Frontier starts at $49. Southwest past March is starting at $193. Frontier has some $59-69 fares. Combo between pulling from EWR as well and the low fares, they are able to carve out a there own passengers. Though EWR is more competitive with $99 for winter and $119 (Mar-June).

Yeah, WN is more expensive and it's difficult to understand the sometimes very high fare, than maybe WN wanting to save seats for connections (e.g. PHL-MDW-SLC sales). But, WN is also setting the fare between Philly and Chicago and not interested in keeping the fare unprofitable if it's going to be matched and compete anyways with US, UA and AA.

However, a few of the connections are kind of dumb: I've found WN selling PHL-MDW-PIT seats for around $100. I've also been on a number of less than 50% full flights including that last PHL-MDW flight or the first MDW-EWR flight where there is no connection feed, and fares are still high and wondered why WN doesn't discount the non connection feed flights like the last or first flight.

Southwest is also much more expensive than Spirit on ORD-ACY. That flight operates only in the summer, but it's typically packed. The flight time is very early in the morning, requiring a likely leisure pax to stay at an ORD hotel or take an early morning cab (about $50 from the Loop). By the time I added all the costs and lack of interest in Spirit, it wasn't worth it for me but the low fares are attractive.

[Edited 2013-11-01 13:36:30]

User currently offlineFlytravel From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 873 posts, RR: 0
Reply 53, posted (8 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 10792 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 50):
And I don't know how much attention Frontier pays to the south of the border routes, but if it does that lines up PIT, IND and CLE for TTN service.

Even though I'd like PIT /LBE service more, my guess is CLE is the next VFR market for TTN service. I think for these following reasons:

1. High nonstop fares from EWR and PHL, and flight service out of uncomfortable RJs.
2. Short enough route but long enough that F9 is not competing against MegaBus (maybe Pittsburgh's downfall)
3. Large enough market. 3 major pro sports teams (MLB, NBA, NFL) in the Cleveland-Akron-Canton market and high profile enough of a region. 19th largest media market surpassing Columbus. It'd be cool for F9 to say fly TTN-GRR as the Philly region has no direct service to Grand Rapids, but that region maybe not large enough compared to Cleveland.
4. Connections through Chicago are unfavorable, backtracking and probably unliked. WN doesn't even price PHL-MDW-CLE low. People would prefer direct if it's such as short trip.
5. Frontier now unafraid of flying to the short-haul distance legacy hubs (CVG, CLT). CMH and RDU were initially safe attempt as it's nobody hub, but Frontier now knows that it can go to the nearby legacy hub.
6. Frontier already services CLE, via DEN


User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1951 posts, RR: 0
Reply 54, posted (8 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 10766 times:
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We have word about parking rates at TTN. Now I can see why Brian Hughes wanted up to $12.



I think $8 is a bit high, I certainly hope that they have done a good job with the terminal renovations.

Thoughts?

[Edited 2013-11-02 10:56:32]


Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1951 posts, RR: 0
Reply 55, posted (8 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 10751 times:
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Also lots of spaces for rental cars, seems like enterprise/national is expecting business, probably has to do with them moving from a retail location in Ewing and they probably will still do insurance claims. All 4 signs say Rental Car only BTW.




Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineFrontier14 From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 186 posts, RR: 0
Reply 56, posted (8 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 10725 times:

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 54):
I think $8 is a bit high, I certainly hope that they have done a good job with the terminal renovations

How does this long term parking rate compare to PHL or EWR ?

Frontier 14


User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1951 posts, RR: 0
Reply 57, posted (8 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 10715 times:
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PHL is $11 a day
EWR is $18 a day.

3rd party lots at Newark start at $8 and at Philly at $6.

I guess its not that bad. As long as the fare is good enough I guess.

Maybe they will use the money for something good after they finish paying it off.

$8 x 900 cars= $7,200 a day $216,000 a month = $2.6 million a year. Figure in expenses it will probably be paid off in 2 years ($3.4 million cost) or less.

[Edited 2013-11-02 12:23:52]


Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24998 posts, RR: 85
Reply 58, posted (8 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 10716 times:
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Quoting Flytravel (Reply 53):
Even though I'd like PIT /LBE service more, my guess is CLE is the next VFR market for TTN service.

Just as I was warming to the idea of PIT - but not LBE. I love that Frontier is using a tertiary airport (TTN) to provide service to primary airports.

But yes, I think TTN-CLE is the most likely, although not necessarily the next to be announced. Frontier shifted from CAK to CLE and from DAY to CVG for two reasons - to be able to rationalise the schedules with the Apple services and also because Southwest had started DEN-CAK and DEN-DAY.

Bot CLE and CVG have been pretty much gang-busters for Frontier (which may not be what Southwest intended - LOL) and that may be why they're starting TTN-CVG. Can TTN-CLE be too far behind?

I really don't know how much the Apple flights affect Frontier's commercial thinking (as opposed to schedule thinking) as connections seem unlikely. But there are now four routes from CVG (DEN/TTN/CUN/PUJ) and the same would be true for CLE.

But would TTN-CLE mean they won't start TTN-PIT - eventually - or are they separate markets? Similarly, does TTN-RDU mean they won't start TTN-GSO - eventually - or are they separate markets?

And would ILG-PIT work? I dunno.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1951 posts, RR: 0
Reply 59, posted (8 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 10709 times:
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Hmm..if F9 starts TTN-CLE. DAY and CAK will be the only two major airports in Ohio without service to Trenton.

[Edited 2013-11-02 12:25:44]


Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24998 posts, RR: 85
Reply 60, posted (8 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 10684 times:
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Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 59):
CLE over CAK, CAK has too much Airtran/Southwest service including flights to DEN.

I doubt CAK is even a consideration for Frontier. Or DAY. Another reason for shifting from DAY to CVG was that a decent percentage of the DAY-DEN traffic was coming from CVG area.

I'd like to see Kentucky next. Or Tennessee. Or South Carolina.  

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1951 posts, RR: 0
Reply 61, posted (8 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 10687 times:
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Also of note: TTN's PFC request was approved.
http://www.faa.gov/airports/pfc/monthly_reports/media/airports.xlsx
(requires MS Excel)



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlinesunking737 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2038 posts, RR: 8
Reply 62, posted (8 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 10625 times:

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 54):
I think $8 is a bit high, I certainly hope that they have done a good job with the terminal renovations.

Thoughts?

MSP T-1 is $22 a day, T-2 is $16 a day, DL, AA, UA, US are T-1 SY, WN, NK are T-2



Just an MSPAVGEEK
User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3346 posts, RR: 0
Reply 63, posted (8 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 10599 times:

Frontier is targeting leisure passengers but i can still see a good demand for rental cars. Example you live in RDU but flew to visit grandma. You were flexible on fares and Grandma lives in Princeton so you need a rental car etc etc. Also probably some one way rentals. People use the close by airports tool and book a ticket into PHL and out of TTN because it was cheaper. Only later they realize the car rental one way is way more but its already been booked. Lesson learned but happens all the time. I think the rental car business will certainly increase its not all TTN area Origin passengers.

User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3052 posts, RR: 1
Reply 64, posted (8 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 10581 times:

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 61):
TTN's PFC request was approved.

I think TTN got a little greedy with the $4.50 amount. If the amounts were decided at the airport level and I think they are

With the new parking fees and the new PFC coming about at the same time I would have considered a $3 PFC which would have made TTN a little more eye pleasing over PHL and EWR who also charge a $4.50 PFC. TTN could have marketed the lower fee also.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3052 posts, RR: 1
Reply 65, posted (8 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 10573 times:

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 55):

I wonder how the TTN rental car lot will look on the day(s) leading up to Super Bowl Sunday with this years game in the Meadowlands. I have a suspicion there won't be a car one.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1951 posts, RR: 0
Reply 66, posted (8 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 10517 times:
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Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 64):
I think TTN got a little greedy with the $4.50 amount. If the amounts were decided at the airport level and I think they are

With the new parking fees and the new PFC coming about at the same time I would have considered a $3 PFC which would have made TTN a little more eye pleasing over PHL and EWR who also charge a $4.50 PFC. TTN could have marketed the lower fee also.

Fortunately for TTN, Frontiers website doesn't breakdown the taxes, you can't see the fact they are charging a PFC. I looked on Priceline and Travelocity couldn't see that either. Saw the breakdown on United.com though. So I don't think they have to worry much. Don't know how F9 will handle it, being they have to include it in the sale price, will the prices go up $5 each way, I don't know but it will look like a fare increase.



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlinekingcavalier From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 1302 posts, RR: 17
Reply 67, posted (8 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 10517 times:

F9 has to break down the taxes. I just checked a DEN-BMI fare and you can click on the taxes to see the break down.



Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24998 posts, RR: 85
Reply 68, posted (8 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 10509 times:
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Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 66):
Don't know how F9 will handle it, being they have to include it in the sale price, will the prices go up $5 each way, I don't know but it will look like a fare increase.

But I thought there has always been a facility charge.This article is dated July 18, 2013:

http://www.mercerspace.com/news/fron...ends-trenton-mercer-airport-lease/

"Frontier airlines extends Trenton-Mercer Airport lease

Frontier’s rent is $18,558 per year. In addition, the airline collects a Passenger Facility Charge from each ticket sold and passes a portion of that to the airport. Currently that amount is approximately $40,000 per month."


i don't think Frontier has been using the airport for free.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1951 posts, RR: 0
Reply 69, posted (8 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 10499 times:
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Quoting kingcavalier (Reply 67):

I don't know why I didn't see that, but it does break it down. regardless I don't think that that many people are going to click on the link and find out what taxes there are because all the taxes are now part of the quoted fare. Before when you clicked on the fare on the website $98 roundtrip would price up like at $118 with taxes, perhaps then more people would look at it to find out where their $20 was going but now that the new law went into effect, airlines have to absorb it into their fare.

Here is the Trenton PFC in particular




Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1951 posts, RR: 0
Reply 70, posted (8 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 10503 times:
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Quoting mariner (Reply 68):
But I thought there has always been a facility charge.This article is dated July 18, 2013:

No according to this notice for public comment put out by Mercer County on May 17, 2013, the effective date was to be August 2013. We hadn't heard on if it was approved or not. The news has been erroneously speaking of a passenger facility charge since day one but it wasn't even requested until May and not approved until August. F9 may pay a per pax fee to TTN as well that they are confusing for a PFC,


http://nj.gov/counties/mercer/depart...fs/ttn_notice4pubcomment130616.pdf

[Edited 2013-11-02 20:25:39]


Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24998 posts, RR: 85
Reply 71, posted (8 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 10477 times:
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Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 70):
F9 may pay a per pax fee to TTN as well that they are confusing for a PFC,

But from a passenger perspective - cost of ticket - surely it amounts to the same thing?

If one is the official PFC and the other is the unofficial PFC - the one Frontier has been paying - does the airport intend to collect both?

  

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1951 posts, RR: 0
Reply 72, posted (8 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 10432 times:
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Quoting mariner (Reply 71):

I don't know what they did, however I don't think Mercer County would do anything that Frontier didn't agree to, because even though they have a 5 year contract, I believe it only covers rent and not landing fees and such.



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24998 posts, RR: 85
Reply 73, posted (8 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 10442 times:
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Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 72):
I don't know what they did, however I don't think Mercer County would do anything that Frontier didn't agree to, because even though they have a 5 year contract, I believe it only covers rent and not landing fees and such.

Certainly, I'm sure Frontier and TTN/Mercer County are in cahoots, but I would very surprised if the original contract did not cover all potential costs and eventualities, as contracts usually do. In the ABE contract, there were even clauses about fuel prices.

It doesn't matter - my only question was your comment that this new PFC might add to the ticket price, whereas I think it has always - effectively - been there, but I can't carve that in granite, only that the airport was making some money from each passenger.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3052 posts, RR: 1
Reply 74, posted (8 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 10356 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 68):
But I thought there has always been a facility charge.This article is dated July 18, 2013:
Quoting mariner (Reply 68):
the airline collects a Passenger Facility Charge from each ticket sold and passes a portion of that to the airport.


TTN may have collected a fee and called it something different. Whether is was legal or not is a different story. I think federally approved PFC are required to read Passenger Facility Charge. The majority of flyers could easily confuse PFC with the PCASS or Passenger Civil Aviation Security Service fee which funds the TSA in part. (line item AY above) Only PFC go toward airport facilities infrastructure improvements.

Looking at the FAA PFC spreadsheet above it states "as of" October 1, 2013. October 1 of any given year is the beginning of the U.S. federal government new fiscal year. Having worked around government finance planning and resources for quite a few years. With few exceptions the feds use October 1 as a launch date for new funding initiatives. The States and local municipalities new FY begins July 1, TTN PFC may have been approved earlier but had to be held until the new fiscal year. The October 1 date in the spreadsheet could also be a random date carried over on a month to month to schedule.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 70):

Sir, with TTN in your backyard; perhaps you might email the airport authority and get the skinny on the PFC.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24998 posts, RR: 85
Reply 75, posted (8 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 10319 times:
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Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 74):
TTN may have collected a fee and called it something different. Whether is was legal or not is a different story.

Since it has been publicly stated that they have been collecting a fee - see links above - I sure hope it was legal.  

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3052 posts, RR: 1
Reply 76, posted (8 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 10261 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 73):
I'm sure Frontier and TTN/Mercer County are in cahoots,
Quoting mariner (Reply 75):
I sure hope it was legal.

I wouldn't expect anything less. Your use of the word cahoots; specifically the secrecy component in the definition took on the appearance of illegal activity; in my mind. https://www.google.com/search?q=cahoots&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=np&source=hp

I'm assuming the $9 or $4.50 x 2 PFC cited above is for two separate airports in that it was my understanding PFC up to a maximum of $4.50 could be collected for the outbound leg of travel only; meaning an airport cannot charge you twice for embarking and debarking.

http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/PFC_55001.pdf (The good reading starts on page 8)

Taken from FAA directive 5500.1 above "A public agency that controls a commercial service airport may
request the authority to impose a PFC of $1, $2, $3, $4, or $4.50 on revenue passengers enplaned at such an airport"

There is a lot of good info staring on page 8 through 12; for example a PFC cannot be charged on a EAS subsidize route. although I don't think there are any EAS markets from TTN or DEN. I'm gonna scan over chapter 10 to see what extra requirement the highest $4.50 threshold requires. I did not know if a single entity/airport owned/managed more than one airport the PFC collected at one airport could be used for the other airport. That's just seems wrong to me. Example Massport could use PFC funding acollected at BOS in ORH (Worcester, MA) in that they manage both.airports.

I think it's fair to say the PFC fee collection program the FAA initiated in the early 1990's are to blame for all of the fee's we see airlines charging today. I suppose the mindset if they can (the feds) then we should too runs rampant.

[Edited 2013-11-03 15:55:56]


Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineJerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1951 posts, RR: 0
Reply 77, posted (8 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 10216 times:
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Tonight is a night were I'd prefer TTN have jetways. Tonights low 29F or -2C, But we won't see that until a new terminal is built which is probably atleast 3-5 years away.


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User currently offlinerampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3103 posts, RR: 6
Reply 78, posted (8 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 10148 times:

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 54):
I think $8 is a bit high, I certainly hope that they have done a good job with the terminal renovations.

Thoughts?
Quoting Frontier14 (Reply 56):
How does this long term parking rate compare to PHL or EWR ?

The cheapest I've parked at EWR is $10, off-airport. SWF is $10 or $60 max for a week, ABE was $12, I think. I think $8 is very reasonable for the region.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 65):
I have a suspicion there won't be a car one.

There won't be a car to be had in 4 states.

-Rampart


User currently offlineJerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1951 posts, RR: 0
Reply 79, posted (8 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 10150 times:
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Quoting rampart (Reply 78):
The cheapest I've parked at EWR is $10, off-airport. SWF is $10 or $60 max for a week, ABE was $12, I think. I think $8 is very reasonable for the region.

I've reconsidered, just seemed a bit high at first but your right

Quoting rampart (Reply 78):
There won't be a car to be had in 4 states.

I plan to be renting my personal car for $100 a day LOL



[Edited 2013-11-03 23:09:36]


Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3052 posts, RR: 1
Reply 80, posted (8 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 9947 times:

I don't think this has been mentioned previously. According to the F9 Facebook page It appears the leadership team is seriously contemplating adding a flight attendant base at TTN next year.

For those interested F9 is hosting a job fare in Orlando for the F/A base in DEN and MDW.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineFrontier14 From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 186 posts, RR: 0
Reply 81, posted (8 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 9907 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 80):
I don't think this has been mentioned previously. According to the F9 Facebook page It appears the leadership team is seriously contemplating adding a flight attendant base at TTN next year

This seems to be a logical next step given the TTN, ILG and PHL flights. There has also been some speculation that the MDW-ORD pilot base may be relocated eastward too. There was a recent F9 flight attendant job fair here in Denver that drew an overflow number of prospective job seekers. My understanding is that 50+ were offered employment.

There are now two new pilot classes of 10-12 each in the mix. With more to come after the sale is closed. This may give us a hint that the fleet will be expanded in the not too distant future or that the aircraft utilization times are going to increase significantly.

Spirit and other ULCC's have their aircraft scheduled to be in the air 12.5+ hours per day. F9 is certainly less than that so it may be fair to post RAH F9 will be increasing their daily utilization of their fleet. This would most certainly require a need for more crew, mechanics and other support staffing to make this happen.

Frontier 14


User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3346 posts, RR: 0
Reply 82, posted (8 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 9851 times:

Quoting Jerseyguy (Reply 77):
Tonight is a night were I'd prefer TTN have jetways. Tonights low 29F or -2C, But we won't see that until a new terminal is built which is probably atleast 3-5 years away.

It is cold but you wont be outside for very long. I feel like snow is the worst for the walk to the plane carrying bags but North Jersey and NY gets alot more snow than Trenton and is colder. Trenton does still average 24 inches so frontier will face snow at times, while newark EWR averages 29, and newburgh SWF 41 inches so Trenton isnt as bad as to the north but something that Frontier will have to deal with. Its really not a long walk i think just something that people are not use to in the northeast as much.


User currently offlineLexy From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 2515 posts, RR: 9
Reply 83, posted (8 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 9802 times:

Okay, can someone really fill me in as to the obsession F9 has with a small airport in New Jersey that sits outside of Philly? I can't think of one reason why I'd like to fly there from BNA or anywhere else. Do they honestly think this is going to work long term?


Nashville, Tennessee KBNA
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3052 posts, RR: 1
Reply 84, posted (8 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 9779 times:

Quoting Lexy (Reply 83):
I can't think of one reason why I'd like to fly there from BNA or anywhere else. Do they honestly think this is going to work long term?

1. Sole source operations in a 4.5 million catchment area.

2. ULCC pricing. Compare some of the prices.

3. Roughly half the distance between Philly and Newark.

4. Lower volume of road traffic. Traffic in the region actually moves when compared to NYC.

5. Speedier processing through TSA. Airport is easier to negotiate.

6. Constant flight delays at EWR.

7. Condition of both airports. PHL was in dire need or repairs. I actually tripped on ripped carpet near the US regional gates. I haven't been to EWR in quite a few years but I understand it is in need of a lot of TLC also.

8. Trenton is the N.J. State capital. How may other state capital don't have commercial air service. F9 seems to making it work.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24998 posts, RR: 85
Reply 85, posted (8 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 9780 times:
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Quoting Lexy (Reply 83):
Okay, can someone really fill me in as to the obsession F9 has with a small airport in New Jersey that sits outside of Philly? I can't think of one reason why I'd like to fly there from BNA or anywhere else. Do they honestly think this is going to work long term?

You may not want to use TTN, but others do.

Frontier began flying from TTN just under a year ago, with 2 x weekly TTN-MCO. In a little over a year, they'll be flying to 12 destinations with 3 aircraft scheduled-based at TTN, and with an average 90% plus load factor.

And then there's ILG.  

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineLexy From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 2515 posts, RR: 9
Reply 86, posted (8 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 9771 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 84):
going to work long term?

1. Sole source operations in a 4.5 million catchment area.

2. ULCC pricing. Compare some of the prices.

3. Roughly half the distance between Philly and Newark.

4. Lower volume of road traffic. Traffic in the region actually moves when compared to NYC.

5. Speedier processing through TSA. Airport is easier to negotiate.

6. Constant flight delays at EWR.

7. Condition of both airports. PHL was in dire need or repairs. I actually tripped on ripped carpet near the US regional gates. I haven't been to EWR in quite a few years but I understand it is in need of a lot of TLC also.

8. Trenton is the N.J. State capital. How may other state capital don't have commercial air service. F9 seems to making it work.

Thank you! Frankfort, KY is the most obvious without service.

Quoting mariner (Reply 85):

I don't disagree with you, I was just wondering why it's been such a "hit".

[Edited 2013-11-05 11:57:31]


Nashville, Tennessee KBNA
User currently offlinekingcavalier From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 1302 posts, RR: 17
Reply 87, posted (8 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 9762 times:

Shurz commented on TTN and the Northeast in the Cranky Flier interview -

Quote:
Cranky: It sounds like in the Northeast, even though you’re optimistic, results have been a little lukewarm so far?

Daniel: I’d say it’s just early to make a full judgment. We’re using low fares to fill up airplanes. We want people to try these airports. We’re happy with what we’re seeing so far. Our behavior should tell people something. We are putting a third aircraft into Trenton in February, which is based on what we’ve been seeing in the market. There’s definitely an educational effort. But the great thing we’re finding is that it’s the Northeast and the primary airports are not the most wonderful in the world.

Cranky: Nor can you enter them if you don’t have the slots.

Daniel: And they’re expensive to use from a customer perspective. They’re expensive to use from an airline perspective. They’re more delay prone that average.
Trenton has not had anything like [our service]. We’re trying to deliver the service in a different way than anyone has done it before. The last big jet carrier was Eastwind and they went out of business 14 years ago and we’re doing things very differently from the way they did.

And the world has changed. I think you’ve done work, Brett, to show how much domestic fares have risen notably on one airline, but also generally. And that’s what’s creating opportunity for ULCCs in the country. It’s that fare umbrella. The northeast never had low fares to the same extent since Southwest was never that big in the Northeast. And their failure to succeed in Philadelphia has led to fares rising. One of the things about Wilmington is that even though Baltimore fares are lower than in general in the northeast, they’re significantly higher than they were 5 to 10 years ago.


[Edited 2013-11-05 12:02:29]


Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24998 posts, RR: 85
Reply 88, posted (8 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 9763 times:
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Quoting Lexy (Reply 86):
I don't disagree with you, I just wonder why it's been such a "hit".

You're not alone - a lot of people are wondering that and I don't have an answer. Low fares are part of it, but so is convenience.

Gent's list is fairly comprehensive, and I'd add low fares and convenience to that, but, fairly clearly and from Day 1, there was a pent-up demand.

The limitations of the airport (size of terminal, length of runway) may be the negatives that kept others away, and perhaps it took scrappy airline like Frontier to realise the demand.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineLexy From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 2515 posts, RR: 9
Reply 89, posted (8 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 9750 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 88):

You're not alone - a lot of people are wondering that and I don't have an answer. Low fares are part of it, but so is convenience.

Gent's list is fairly comprehensive, and I'd add low fares and convenience to that, but, fairly clearly and from Day 1, there was a pent-up demand.

The limitations of the airport (size of terminal, length of runway) may be the negatives that kept others away, and perhaps it took scrappy airline like Frontier to realise the demand.

I think it's great they are literally making something out of nothing, essentially. I look forward to see what the future holds for them there and what markets are served out of TTN.



Nashville, Tennessee KBNA
User currently offlineMtnWest1979 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 2426 posts, RR: 1
Reply 90, posted (8 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 9726 times:
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Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 65):
I wonder how the TTN rental car lot will look on the day(s) leading up to Super Bowl Sunday with this years game in the Meadowlands. I have a suspicion there won't be a car one.

Well they will have some, at the $300/day range I bet lol.

Quoting Lexy (Reply 86):
Thank you! Frankfort, KY is the most obvious without service.

Gee, I was thinking Salem,OR. But then again, I am out West.
Concord,NH
Salem,OR
Olympia,WA
Frankfort,KY
Carson City,NV
Technically St Paul,MN lol
and so on.......

Probably Topeka,KS again after latest attempt fails to live up to hope, but maybe not.



"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3346 posts, RR: 0
Reply 91, posted (8 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 9723 times:

Quoting Lexy (Reply 83):
Okay, can someone really fill me in as to the obsession F9 has with a small airport in New Jersey

Huge catchment area and cities with no LCC competition in the region. Plus the traffic can make it take along time to get to the other airports if you live by TTN. It has its advantages but also its challenges. People are really use to frequency in the crowded northeast and no other airline to put people on etc etc


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24998 posts, RR: 85
Reply 92, posted (8 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 9734 times:
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Quoting mariner (Reply 85):
And then there's ILG.  

You might want to check out the ILG Facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/FlyWilmILG

"Frontier Airlines is expected to announce plans for the airline’s further growth at Wilmington Airport, expanding on its
successful launch of nonstop service to Chicago, Denver, Orlando and Tampa that began earlier this year."


The rumour - stress rumor - is that the announcement will be tomorrow or Thursday, but that's just dickie birds chirping.  

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineFrontier14 From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 186 posts, RR: 0
Reply 93, posted (8 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 9728 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 92):
The rumour - stress rumor - is that the announcement will be tomorrow or Thursday, but that's just dickie birds chirping

Mariner, I am hearing similar rumblings. Perhaps an ILG announcement will coincide with the formal announcement of the purchase by Indigo. On Thursday RAH will be making its quarterly performance known.

Frontier 14


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24998 posts, RR: 85
Reply 94, posted (8 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 9702 times:
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Quoting Frontier14 (Reply 93):
Mariner, I am hearing similar rumblings.

I haven't sorted out the balance they see between ILG and TTN yet, so the most interesting question to me is - where? Longer haul? Shorter haul?

If I had my druthers they'd do something exotic like ILG-SJU, but I think it is more likely to be ILG-FLL - or similar.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3052 posts, RR: 1
Reply 95, posted (8 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 9670 times:

Quoting Lexy (Reply 86):
Thank you! Frankfort, KY is the most obvious without service.

FFT (Frankfort, KY) is indeed one. http://flightaware.com/live/airport_status_bigmap.rvt?airport=KFFT FFT I suspect because SDF is in range at 45 miles or 73 km. CVG a little farther at 62 miles or 99 km. CVG" target="_blank">http://www.travelmath.com/flying-distance/from/FFT/to/CVG

Ironically FFT IATA code is the same as F9 flight aware designator code.   



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineJerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1951 posts, RR: 0
Reply 96, posted (8 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 9629 times:
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Quoting Lexy (Reply 83):

I think that also it's more of an airport you fly FROM not to. Meaning that only locals will really use it. You might also have some VFR (visiting friends and relatives) traffic for the area. I don't think you'd see anyone who wants to visit NYC or Philly using the airport. This is why it should be better having Enterprise in there now vs Avis as they have more auto insurance rental contracts to support the station.



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineFlytravel From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 873 posts, RR: 0
Reply 97, posted (8 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 9562 times:

Quoting Jerseyguy (Reply 96):
Meaning that only locals will really use it. You might also have some VFR (visiting friends and relatives) traffic for the area. I don't think you'd see anyone who wants to visit NYC or Philly using the airport.

I think if one is going to Philly region, Central or Northern NJ, and there is no friend or family to pick person up, TTN can work with a car rental. Atleast Enterprise is open to midnight.

I think F9 is trying to change TTN being only a FROM airport for the non Florida markets. Most of the flight times in the first group work well for reaching TTN for a weekend trip when it has a Sunday return. Most VFR markets have a Sunday flight except CVG that didn't get one.

Fri Mar 21 schedule into TTN:

ATL-TTN 4:50pm-6:49pm
DTW-TTN 3:15pm-4:44pm
RDU-TTN 9:29pm-10:49pm
MDW-TTN 6:55pm-9:46pm
CVG-TTN 7:59pm-9:39pm

FLL-TTN 12:05pm-2:56pm
MCO-TTN 9:45am-12:11pm
TPA-TTN 10:55am-1:22pm

The first category I consider VFR, where flight days and times are important. Worse case: If a VFR market only has Tuesday and Wednesday noon flights from TTN with a return same afternoon, it probably won't be popular.

The Florida flights are more leisure and people from So. Florida can easily use B6 to get to EWR/LGA/JFK likely on a low or modest fare and get better access into NYC. So, those flights would be more TTN local driven, but flight times are not as important as pax would take more time off of work (e.g. a week off of work for a Disney vacation), or it's retired pax looking to escape the cold.

As for the non Florida locations, e.g. CVG, someone from Cincinnati might chose F9 to reach Northern NJ or NYC. I think with the next schedule change F9 should convert the 2x weekly CMH flights to CVG to make CVG have service Monday, Wednesday, Friday and on Thursday and Sunday taking over CMH, unless F9 can get more aircraft at TTN to increase both CVG and CMH. If it can get another aircraft, I think CLE would be better than CMH, but maybe all three can be done with atleast 4x weekly.

I think there is more pent up demand for CVG since WN, NK, and B6 lack service into the market. There is no low fare way to reach NYC in the case of CVG.

[Edited 2013-11-05 17:07:38]

User currently offlineJerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1951 posts, RR: 0
Reply 98, posted (8 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 9547 times:
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I know its not much, but here's a sneak peak of the new TTN courtesy of the FLY Trenton Mercer Airport Facebook page.



The TSA checkpoint has been moved back towards the wall and there will be no more bringing your checked bag down to TSA. The photo was taken from the new area, The orginal gate is on your right hand side just past the half wall. I will be going on Friday and I'll get some pics of pre-security. Sunday I have a ticket to get me post security for some shots.



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3052 posts, RR: 1
Reply 99, posted (8 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 9515 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 85):
And then there's ILG.

I'm hearing ILG is becoming popular in south Jersey for vacationers including those in ACY.

The Coast Guard training center in Cape May graduates a recruit training class most if not each Friday. F9 flight # 395 ILG-DEN cuts it to close for the graduates and their families who fly to travel to ILG for the scheduled 1:10 PM departure. A 4:00 PM-ish departure out of ILG would work much better for those flying west; connecting through DEN.

Most of that travel is leisure travel home before the Coasties report to their first duty stations 7-10 days later. I understand quite a few moms and dads fly in the day before to watch their sons and daughters graduate from recruit training. F9 might also want to consider offering a DEN-ILG the day prior on Thursday for those flying in from out west.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineMtnWest1979 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 2426 posts, RR: 1
Reply 100, posted (8 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 9467 times:
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Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 95):
FFT (Frankfort, KY) is indeed one. http://flightaware.com/live/airport_status_bigmap.rvt?airport=KFFT FFT I suspect because SDF is in range at 45 miles or 73 km. CVG a little farther at 62 miles or 99 km. CVG" target="_blank">http://www.travelmath.com/flying-distance/from/FFT/to/CVG

And Lexington (LEX) only 29 miles away.



"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
User currently offlinesmoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1293 posts, RR: 12
Reply 101, posted (8 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 9464 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 94):
I haven't sorted out the balance they see between ILG and TTN yet, so the most interesting question to me is - where? Longer haul? Shorter haul?

If I had my druthers they'd do something exotic like ILG-SJU, but I think it is more likely to be ILG-FLL - or similar.

mariner

My guess would be on FLL as well.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24998 posts, RR: 85
Reply 102, posted (8 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 9488 times:
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Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 101):
My guess would be on FLL as well.

I've checked a couple of message boards and the top choice by people who use ILG seems to be - IAH.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineJerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1951 posts, RR: 0
Reply 103, posted (8 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 9472 times:
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Quoting mariner (Reply 102):
I've checked a couple of message boards and the top choice by people who use ILG seems to be - IAH.

LOL. Not going to happen, I think they took a beating on those flights, how can you make money with a flight that far when 90% of the plane is paying $90-125 roundrrip



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineJerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1951 posts, RR: 0
Reply 104, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 9437 times:
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Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 99):
The Coast Guard training center in Cape May graduates a recruit training class most if not each Friday. F9 flight # 395 ILG-DEN cuts it to close for the graduates and their families who fly to travel to ILG for the scheduled 1:10 PM departure. A 4:00 PM-ish departure out of ILG would work much better for those flying west; connecting through DEN.

Whatever they do the 110pm departure isn't good for connecting to the west anyway. When I looked to book tickets for my parents ILG-SNA, On the days it departed at 110pm there was almost a 3 hr layover for both LAX and SNA, luckily I was able to find a Saturday flight that left at 150pm making it a 2 hr layover hopefully they can retime the flight to allow shorter layovers plus as you say it would help the Coast Guard training center. I think why its popular in the ACY area is because ACY doesn't offer a connection to the west like the ILG-DEN service does. Spirit offers on a seasonal basis service to DTW which will only connect you to LAX and DFW. ILG is only 15 minutes further than PHL and offers free parking and good pricing.



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineJerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1951 posts, RR: 0
Reply 105, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 9433 times:
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Well, well. It appears that the Governor of DE will be joining F9 CEO David Siegel to announce "growth plans" in DE. Think this is much bigger than we thought. The Governor doesn't generally stop by to announce 3X weekly service to FLL and of course David Siegel is going to be there too. Usually he just sends Daniel Shurz to announce things. Announcement is scheduled for today (Wednesday).

http://www.washingtonpost.com/nation...-11e3-95a9-3f15b5618ba8_story.html

Also should we make this the Frontier TTN/ILG thread now that we seem to be talking about ILG now here?



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3052 posts, RR: 1
Reply 106, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 9309 times:

From the Facebook page it looks like ILG-ATL and ILG-DTW effective April 2014


Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3052 posts, RR: 1
Reply 107, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 9270 times:

Quoting Jerseyguy (Reply 105):
Also should we make this the Frontier TTN/ILG thread now that we seem to be talking about ILG now here?

  
With 59 miles or 95 km separating ILG and TTN; the two airports sort of go hand-in-hand.
Another moniker might be "Frontier mid-Atlantic" The title allows a few other cities including DCA, BWI, MHT, LGA any maybe PHF. although PHF might be a stretch. without opening a new thread anytime somebody wants to comment.

Fox Business News has mentioned Trenton (the city) no less than five times today with the Christie win yesterday. I've heard Boston mentioned once; maybe twice. Free publicity for F9 as it relates to area familiarization.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24998 posts, RR: 85
Reply 108, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 9234 times:
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Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 106):
From the Facebook page it looks like ILG-ATL and ILG-DTW effective April 2014

Hmmm.

I'm guessing these both have to do with aircraft scheduling, and I guess both imply that TTN-ATL/DTW are doing well, but while these routes may be good for the airline I am a bit - underwhelmed.

I had hoped for something more than s replication of TTN routes, but perhaps the most interesting thing about the announcement was this hint about the future:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/nation...-11e3-95a9-3f15b5618ba8_story.html

"Siegel said the Wilmington expansion plans do not depend upon completion of the proposed sale of Frontier by its parent company, Republic Airways, to Phoenix-based private equity firm Indigo Partners.

But Siegel said a sale to Indigo would result in a well-capitalized company that could expand even faster."


THis would seem to imply that there is a Plan B, but it's a tease about what happens when (if) the deal goes through.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3052 posts, RR: 1
Reply 109, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 9210 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 108):
I'm guessing these both have to do with aircraft scheduling, and I guess both imply that TTN-ATL/DTW are doing well, but while these routes may be good for the airline I am a bit - underwhelmed

As am I. I have no doubts abot ILG-ATL. I believe F9 even shored up TTN-ALT after it was announced to meet demand.

In a ULCC model I fail to see a connection which might tie ILG-DTW together. I know of no leisure in the immediate Detroit area other than it being in Michigan. Detroit if memory serves me is in bankruptcy. I'm going the stand on the sidelines of this one. If F9 couldn't make ILG-IAH work I suspect ILG-DTW will succumb to the same fate. Given the April start date I wonder if it will be a seasonal market. To make the announcement five plus months out is fairly significant.

This takes on the appearance of one of those throw a dart blindfolded to see were it sticks. IMO there were so many better opportunities elsewhere.

[Edited 2013-11-06 11:09:39]


Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineJerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1951 posts, RR: 0
Reply 110, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 9203 times:
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Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 109):
Detroit if memory serves me is in bankruptcy.

The city of Detroit is in bankruptcy, the suburbs from what I can tell are doing just fine.



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24998 posts, RR: 85
Reply 111, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 9162 times:
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Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 109):
This takes on the appearance of one of those throw a dart blindfolded to see were it sticks. IMO there were so many better opportunities elsewhere.

Whoa - I think the choices are rational, and probably safe, but just a bit ordinary. I don't think they're disaster.

It was only the attendant hoopla that made me think there might be something other and I'm the one who was hoping for a restoration of ILG-IAH.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3052 posts, RR: 1
Reply 112, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 9132 times:

The Rita Transtats data support ILG-ATL The PHL-ATL city pair across all carriers http://www.transtats.bts.gov/airports.asp?pn=1 takes the top spot at 805,000 boardings between July 2012 and July 2013 It appears the greater Philly area wants to travel to ATL. I don't believe non of those are connecting passengers as those are captured in a separate metric.

The PHL-DTW city pair doesn't crack Rita's top ten.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineFlytravel From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 873 posts, RR: 0
Reply 113, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 9045 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 109):
I know of no leisure in the immediate Detroit area other than it being in Michigan. Detroit if memory serves me is in bankruptcy. I'm going the stand on the sidelines of this one. If F9 couldn't make ILG-IAH work I suspect ILG-DTW will succumb to the same fate.

ILG-DTW is within 400-500 miles, while ILG-IAH was over 1200 miles. But, other than the distance benefit, I don't see ILG-DTW as a best choice. Maybe Michigan is enjoyable as a vacation or Detroit works for an exploratory visit. I think Atlanta has a bigger VFR draw and am familiar with some of the attractions there.

ILG-CHS would have had the beach attraction and would be a comparable distance. It also wouldn' duplicate the TTN-DTW flight. B6 and WN have stimulated demand to CHS from Boston (B6), New York (B6) and Baltimore (WN) with low fares, I wonder why F9 doesn't see that possibility for the Philly region.


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3052 posts, RR: 1
Reply 114, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 9015 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 111):
I think the choices are rational, and probably safe, but just a bit ordinary. I don't think they're disaster.
Quoting Flytravel (Reply 113):
I don't see ILG-DTW as a best choice

In fairness to DTW I priced a flight from BNA-GRR two months ago for my son. I also priced BNA-ORD, BNA-MDW and BNA-MKE Kalamazoo and Flint. BNA-DTW came in about $100 less than everything else I saw. WN offeres the service non-stop from BNA so that was a bonus.

Perhaps F9 selected DTW because it demands a lower fare. Its an economics consideration.

Looking at WN PHL-DTW flights on April 29, 2014 It looks like WN offers five daily flights with no non-stop service; a connection is required through MDW, BNA or ATL. DL and US also offer non-stop service between PHL-DTW which priced for $428.00

The armchair route planner in might have tried ILG-GRR to the north and west of DTW. which roughly splits the distance between Chi-town and Detroit in half. Megabus offers economical motor coach service from GRR to both Chicago and Detroit several times each day. Amtrak also offers service from Grand Rapids to both cities which cost quite a bit more. The ambiance of rail I suppose.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineDolphinAir747 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 305 posts, RR: 0
Reply 115, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 8892 times:

How about TTN-GUA? There's a huge Guatemalan population in Mercer County, and UA only flies EWR-GUA once a week.

User currently offlineJerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1951 posts, RR: 0
Reply 116, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 8868 times:
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TTN-GUA is not possible for atleast 2 reasons.

1. TTN doesn't have customs (Ronson has mini-customs but it couldn't handle an A319 full of pax)
2. Runway is way too short to fly the 2000 miles to GUA



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineJerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1951 posts, RR: 0
Reply 117, posted (8 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 8752 times:
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Wow 3 new cities, I did not expect this.



Another wow. The new gate area at TTN including a bar area (Sky Lounge)

All these photos courtesy of the "Fly Trenton Mercer Airport" facebook page
https://www.facebook.com/TrentonMercerCountyAirport

[Edited 2013-11-07 09:19:38]


Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineFrontier14 From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 186 posts, RR: 0
Reply 118, posted (8 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 8694 times:

Quoting Jerseyguy (Reply 117):
Wow 3 new cities, I did not expect this

Yes, this is quite a surprise to say the least. Guess Mariner will be happy with the addition of BNA. I think IND is a good choice too as the current avg airfare to PHL is pretty pricey. F9 should see some positive results I would guess.

Thanks Jerseyguy for the photos of TTN. They are appreciated.

Frontier 14


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24998 posts, RR: 85
Reply 119, posted (8 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 8686 times:
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Quoting Frontier14 (Reply 118):
Guess Mariner will be happy with the addition of BNA.

You got that right - LOL - but I am verrrrry surprised that they haven't added MEM to either TTN or ILG, or should I say - not yet?

I;m still waiting for something - anything - to New England, of course.

With these new routes, they must be very close to 10 flights a day at TTN which some have suggested may be about all the terminal, even renovated, can handle. Since I haven't see it, I don't know, but I assume the sale confirmation gives everyone, including TTN and ILG, confidence, and perhaps there will be more "improvements"?

ILG, for example, has already said they are making improvements to the baggage claim area.

It's a pretty good day.  

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3052 posts, RR: 1
Reply 120, posted (8 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 8651 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 119):
With these new routes, they must be very close to 10 flights a day at TTN

I'm sure the BRRAM folks are dancing on the ceiling.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4645 posts, RR: 11
Reply 121, posted (8 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 8615 times:

I would love to see PVD be their New England/Boston area location.

There are a good handful of cities that previously supported service or had over 150 daily O&D pax at one time or another that could be a good fit for this type of service

PVD-RDU (JI, AE, DL)
PVD-BNA (WN)
PVD-IND (has been over 150-O&D in the past)
PVD-MCI (WN)
PVD-CVG (DL)
PVD-DEN (WN)
PVD-CMH (has been over 150-O&D in the past)
PVD-TTN/ILG
PVD-CUN

The train to Boston now makes it even more of a viable BOS alternative, and the proved demand to those markets is there.



Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlinePointer From United States of America, joined Nov 2013, 12 posts, RR: 0
Reply 122, posted (8 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 8605 times:

I to would love to see Us (F9) fly into PVD. This would be tops on my list. Reason being is that not only do you get PVD passengers, you can get Massachusetts and Connecticut passengers as well. The model would be similar to TTN. Next on the list as a second choice would be Pease Airport(PSM) in New Hampshire.

[Edited 2013-11-07 10:57:34]

User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24998 posts, RR: 85
Reply 123, posted (8 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 8609 times:
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Quoting Pointer (Reply 122):
Next on the list as a second choice would be Pease Airport(PSM) in New Hampshire.

PSM was my second voice, too. I thought they could "do a TTN" at PSM - until Allegiant grabbed PSM-SFB.

Oh, well.  

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4645 posts, RR: 11
Reply 124, posted (8 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 8605 times:

Quoting Pointer (Reply 122):
Next on the list as a second choice would be Pease Airport(PSM) in New Hampshire.

Really it could be both, much like TTN/ILG. PSM could probably do some Florida flying whereas thats pretty well covered at PVD.

Though PVD-JAX would be a good F9 route as well.



Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlineLexy From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 2515 posts, RR: 9
Reply 125, posted (8 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 8575 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 119):
You got that right - LOL - but I am verrrrry surprised that they haven't added MEM to either TTN or ILG, or should I say - not yet?

Admittedly, BNA was straight out of the blue and I live here! I, too, am surprised MEM hasn't been added yet.



Nashville, Tennessee KBNA
User currently offlineJerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1951 posts, RR: 0
Reply 126, posted (8 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 8572 times:
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BRRAM was estatic this morning before the announcement was made LOL.

Their latest facebook update reads like this:

The quiet will soon be over. Commercial Jet Traffic returns to our area as the airport re-opens.
As of October 31, BRRAM filed a letter of inquiry with the FAA Eastern Regional Administrator, Jamaica Plain, New York. This letter of inquiry refers to earlier 2013 correspondence between BRRAM’s counsel and the FAA. BRRAM’s most recent letter clearly sites that the FAA must comply with the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) by promptly commencing with the execution of an Environmental Impact Statement (EIS) that addresses the full range of impacts from commercial airline activity in the region.
The extensive letter clearly outlines with specific examples, the cause and need for an immediate EIS and sites the FAA’s references to the need to comply. Specifically the letter sites the following issues and provides significant factual support:
1) Major airport and terminal enhancement projects with Federal participation and approval. These enhancements are authorized for facilities that comply with NEPA. TTN does not. Factual citations are provided that outline these inconsistencies.
2) Frontier Airlines current Low Fare/High Frequency (LF/HF) level of service and projected increase with at least 47 flights/week with projected increase flights. This projected increase in service clearly triggers the need for an EIS
3) FAA order of 2008 requires the FAA to prepare and EIS and complies fully with NEPA that clearly states if another LF/HF were to be introduced to TTN, this would trigger an immediate EIS. This has not happened.
BRRAM seeks the following in this letter:
1) Current airline is operating as a LF/HF airline already with TTN being the apparent hub.
2) Trenton Mercer has commenced an ambitious capital improvement program for the airport to facilitate expansion plans of Frontier
3) There has been substantial federal financial participation
4) FAA clearly ordered that EIS must be performed prior to the introduction of any LF/HF service and this has not occurred.
BRRAM is firmly requesting the following:
1) Revoke the categorical exclusion
2) Immediately commences with the necessary NEPA/EIS process and
3) Withdraw or suspends Frontier Airlines Op Specs for the airport until such time as NEPA has been fully complied with.
BRRAM Counsel will await a response within 60 days. After which additional legal action will be discussed. What can you do? We need to support our Counsel who is representing us. Please send your tax deductible contributions payable to BRRAM (I've left out the address not like anyone here wants to contibute but still)


[Edited 2013-11-07 11:28:29]


Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3052 posts, RR: 1
Reply 127, posted (8 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 8564 times:

Quoting Jerseyguy (Reply 127):
TTN being the apparent hub.

I would not call TTN a hub. An P2P focus city. TTN does not meet the transfer point small airport criteria by volume reestablished by the FAA annually. Although some connection is possible. It is not feasible.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineMtnWest1979 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 2426 posts, RR: 1
Reply 128, posted (8 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 8551 times:
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Quoting Jerseyguy (Reply 126):
2) Frontier Airlines current Low Fare/High Frequency (LF/HF) level of service and projected increase

High frequency? What Frontier are they thinking about??



"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
User currently offlineJerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1951 posts, RR: 0
Reply 129, posted (8 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 8466 times:
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Quoting mariner (Reply 119):
With these new routes, they must be very close to 10 flights a day at TTN which some have suggested may be about all the terminal, even renovated, can handle. Since I haven't see it, I don't know, but I assume the sale confirmation gives everyone, including TTN and ILG, confidence, and perhaps there will be more "improvements"?

I took some time to count the flights on each day and here's what I came up with Its 8 or 9 flights with Saturday being the slow day at 4 flights

May 2014
SUN-9 flights
MCO
RSW
IND
MDW
CVG
DTW
RDU
ATL
CLT

MON-8 flights
FLL
TPA
BNA
CLE
MDW
CMH
RDU
ATL

TUE-8 flights
IND
MCO
RSW
MDW
CVG
DTW
ATL
CLT

WED-8 flights
FLL
TPA
BNA
MDW
CMH
CLE
RDU
ATL

THUR-8 flights
MCO
RSW
IND
MDW
CLE
CVG
RDU
CLT

FRI-9 flights
MCO
BNA
MDW
CMH
CLE
DTW
RDU
CLT
ATL

SAT-4 flights
FLL
TPA
MCO
DTW



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineJerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1951 posts, RR: 0
Reply 130, posted (8 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 8464 times:
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LOTS of new Pics of the New Trenton Mercer Airport online in this article. TERMINAL is looking GOOD.
           

http://photos.nj.com/4506/gallery/re...ort_in_ewing_1172013/index.html#/1


We go live to a shot of BRRAM headquarters      

[Edited 2013-11-07 14:49:20]


Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineJerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1951 posts, RR: 0
Reply 131, posted (8 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 8394 times:
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I also think we'll see a discontinuation of TTN-CMH soon. Starting in January lowest fare goes to $159 each way, so that no one will be booking it. South suburbs goes to CVG, North suburbs to CLE. No need for CMH anymore.


Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4536 posts, RR: 18
Reply 132, posted (8 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 8381 times:

Isn't TTN-IND a slightly random route? Does anyone honestly see this route lasting?


Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24998 posts, RR: 85
Reply 133, posted (8 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 8368 times:
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Quoting Indy (Reply 132):
Isn't TTN-IND a slightly random route? Does anyone honestly see this route lasting?

I'm not sure what you mean by random. It fits all the criteria established by Daniel Shurz - a large population, not too far from TTN and not too close, with little low fare competition - I don't think Southwest IND-BWI counts.

It has Frontier service already, to DEN and seasonal CUN, so the overheads are lower, and, presumably, some name familiarity in the area., if not brand loyalty.

I think it's a little ironic that it was announced today - the day after Republic listed Frontier as a "discontinued business" for them - because it is the RAH HQ.

Such is life.  

mariner

edit - nothing to do with the eventual service, just trivia, but I see an aircraft is being ferried from IND to TTN right now, ready for TTN service tomorrow:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/FFT9202

I wondered where they are coming from.  



[Edited 2013-11-07 15:58:28]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineJerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1951 posts, RR: 0
Reply 134, posted (8 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 8375 times:
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Let the absurdity begin.

From a report on ABC6 Philly News (WPVI-TV)
"You have air buses coming over your head at 300 feet; that's loud," said Holly Bussey, Residents for Responsible Airport Management. "That affects your sleep. What's the overall impact of something like this if they are to become a feeder airport?"

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/local&id=9317573

300ft?? Is she SERIOUS?



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3052 posts, RR: 1
Reply 135, posted (8 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 8350 times:

Quoting Indy (Reply 132):
Isn't TTN-IND a slightly random route? Does anyone honestly see this route lasting?

Could be a good football route when the Jets or Giant or Eagles play the Colts if and when they do.

TTN and BNA share a new commonality be it different sports franchises Both towns have Titans.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24998 posts, RR: 85
Reply 136, posted (8 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 8347 times:
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Quoting mariner (Reply 133):
- nothing to do with the eventual service, just trivia, but I see an aircraft is being ferried from IND to TTN right now, ready for TTN service tomorrow:

The second TTN aircraft is in the air, coming from ATL:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/FFT9204

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3052 posts, RR: 1
Reply 137, posted (8 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 8323 times:

It looks like we have two F9 flights enroute to TTN tonight for tomorrow http://flightaware.com/live/airport/KTTN
FFT # 9202 FFT9204



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineFlytravel From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 873 posts, RR: 0
Reply 138, posted (8 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 8137 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 133):
I'm not sure what you mean by random. It fits all the criteria established by Daniel Shurz - a large population, not too far from TTN and not too close, with little low fare competition - I don't think Southwest IND-BWI counts.

Southwest does sell AirTran's PHL-ATL-IND, although no EWR to IND. The PHL-ATL-IND itinery is a long/awkward connection, but WN is selling $95 WGAs, 2-3 flight choices per day, bags included and no change fees if booked from southwest.com. Within F9's network, it might dilute TTN-MDW and TTN-CVG as someone could be otherwise flying the low fares on those routes and then rent car to get to Indiana. Indianapolis isn't Chicago/Atlanta large, and isn't Raleigh/Cleveland close either as it's over 600 miles.

While it's definitely attractive to have more destinations at TTN, and some of this is trial/error, I wonder why not offer the Thu flight otherwise going to IND to ATL to beef up ATL to more coverage. EWR-ATL lacks low fares and TTN-ATL can be built up further. As for the other days when maybe F9 doesn't want to offer 2 flights to the same cities, maybe fly to MIA or somewhere destinational.

Quoting Jerseyguy (Reply 131):
I also think we'll see a discontinuation of TTN-CMH soon. Starting in January lowest fare goes to $159 each way, so that no one will be booking it. South suburbs goes to CVG, North suburbs to CLE. No need for CMH anymore.

I'm seeing that too.

[Edited 2013-11-08 05:04:05]

User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3052 posts, RR: 1
Reply 139, posted (8 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 8091 times:

Just read the Army-Navy service academy football game is being play in Philadelphia on December 14 this year. This could be good for TTN and the central Jersey region. This is nationally televised game in the U.S.

Edited to add ILG too.

[Edited 2013-11-08 06:57:00]


Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24998 posts, RR: 85
Reply 140, posted (8 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 8019 times:
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Quoting Flytravel (Reply 138):
Within F9's network, it might dilute TTN-MDW and TTN-CVG as someone could be otherwise flying the low fares on those routes and then rent car to get to Indiana. Indianapolis isn't Chicago/Atlanta large, and isn't Raleigh/Cleveland close either as it's over 600 miles.

It;s a heck of a detour if there is a cheap fare available on a non-stop, just as renting a car seems overly complicated if there with that cheap non-stop available:

People do all kinds of things to save a buck, but Frontier has just won top award by a low fare watchdog group:

http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/da...114420411039330/v227949_ex99-2.htm

"Frontier nabs Top Airline spot in new Airfare Watchdog carrier rankings; United ranked last overall

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineJerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1951 posts, RR: 0
Reply 141, posted (8 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 7913 times:
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Its very limited but if you can take advantage you can get 20% off at TTN