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BA Could Add 5 New Routes To USA From LHR - Walsh  
User currently offlinehjulicher From Liechtenstein, joined Feb 2005, 861 posts, RR: 2
Posted (5 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 36629 times:

According to a flightglobal interview with Willie Walsh, the IAG CEO states that with the introduction of the 787, BA could add at least 5 new cities in the USA.

The article mentions that BA wanted to add these new routes for a while but was waiting for an efficient long-haul aircraft to do so. The new flights will use existing slots from BA's short-haul European network. The new routes will be on top of the new services to Austin, TX.

These statements were made at the Boyd Group International Aviation Forecast Summit 2013 in Baltimore. Here's the link:http://pro.flightglobal.com/news/articles/BA-could-add-at-least-five-new-US-cities-Walsh-392523/

Since no one else has caught on this, I was wondering which cities would be prime candidates for the new service?
My thoughts are:
DTW
PIT
MSP
PDX
CLT


LH 442
237 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlinearielwar From United States of America, joined Aug 2013, 108 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 36554 times:

If the merger goes through I think CLT will be a no brainer

User currently offlineCGKings317 From Canada, joined Nov 2005, 306 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (5 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 36523 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
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PDX might be a stretch. However perhaps with using a smaller aircraft than what LH did when that airline was at PDX this route might be marginally viable. It would certainly be nice to see BA at PDX though from a spotters point of view.

~CGKings317  



I love ✈ & volcanoes but the 2 of them dont get along, just ask KLM867 & PH-BFC
User currently offline777STL From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3372 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (5 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 36372 times:

STL and SAN have to be in consideration. As far as I know, neither currently has scheduled service to Europe and they're the biggest MSAs in the country to not have that service.

[Edited 2013-11-06 18:04:03]


PHX based
User currently offlineCairnterriAIR From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 401 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 36357 times:

BDL....quite a few companies in both Hartford and Springfield have pledged they would support a reliable trans-atlantic flight.

User currently offlinepsa1011 From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 268 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (5 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 36295 times:
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SAN already has BA. Why not SJC?

User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7004 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (5 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 36248 times:

Quoting 777STL (Reply 3):

BA serves SAN now.

As for where BA might go? I'm not really sure but my 5 guesses would be:
CLT if merger goes through,
MSP
PDX
BDL
CLE? PIT? STL? I find it hard to see them at any of these.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlinehpaeaa From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1024 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (5 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 36119 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 6):

I would love to see CLE but is there enough traffic that BA could pick up to the network (anyone know?)? PIT, wasn't this tried by DL?



Why do I fly???
User currently onlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3639 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (5 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 36118 times:

Don't forget IND. The IAA has been pushing for a trans-Atlantic flight to London for eons, but only now with the 787 is it feasible. Not to mention substantial business ties including (BA's engine supplier of choice) Rolls-Royce.

Perhaps BA could do IND-LHR with the 787, powered by Trent 1000s of course?



I don't work for FWA, their tenants, or their ad agency. But I still love FWA.
User currently offlineAV8AJET From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1311 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (5 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 35971 times:

How about:

FLL
DTW (return)
SJC
SLC
MSY

Long shots I know



"To fly or not to fly there is no question!"
User currently offlineTPAfan From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 35826 times:

I think BDL, BNA, and IND, and depending on the merger, CLT. Not sure about another city, although these are my guesses.

User currently offlineMesaFlyGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 2483 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (5 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 35792 times:
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Quoting AV8AJET (Reply 9):

I doubt FLL, as 1) DY is starting it from LGW, driving down the already low(ish) yields from FLL, and 2) the lower yields. If BA was to start FLL, I could see it with a 777 from LGW after the runway extension is complete.

I definitely see MSY, SJC, BDL, and PIT being feasible.



\________(---)________/ :) World's most beautiful aircraft: 757-200, MD-88/90, E-190, A321
User currently offlinebriboy From Canada, joined Jul 2001, 358 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (5 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 35789 times:

CLT BDL DTW SJC PDX is my guess


next up: YYC, SFO, SYD, AKL, WLG, CMB, BKK, SIN, FRA, VCE, JFK
User currently offlineusdcaguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 871 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (5 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 35763 times:

What about:

RSW
BDL
CLT
PDX
DTW

MSP can barely support its current flight.


User currently offlinetreebeard787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 626 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (5 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 35763 times:

I think these could be possible.
CLT
STL
SJC
IND would be interesting.
MSP-Although I don't know if the demand is there for this one with DL serving it.



Allons-y!
User currently offlinea380787 From Canada, joined Jul 2013, 963 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (5 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 35763 times:

Quoting AV8AJET (Reply 9):
How about:

FLL
DTW (return)
SJC
SLC
MSY

Long shots I know

SJC isn't that long shot. Despite Bay Area being a strong presence of Star, BA has a competitive product that can lure some tech contracts their way (and Silicon Valley is rich as f... so filling front cabin is no issue) Lots of people would appreciate not having to endure 101 highway or San Mateo Bridge to get to SFO.

SLC/MSY are definitely super long shots

FLL but probably out of LGW

I'm really surprised LHR-DTW doesn't exist on BA considering LH does FRA-DTW


User currently offlineMSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6412 posts, RR: 51
Reply 16, posted (5 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 35676 times:

MSY could be viable with the 787. It's the second largest market to W. Europe (behind STL) with no nonstop service based on PDEW. In a news article talking about BA's entry into AUS, it was stated that BA was deciding between MSY and AUS this go around. Don't be surprised to see BA in MSY in the next two years.

I can also see cities like CLT, STL, PIT, and DTW getting a 788 flight to London.



Next trip: MSY-SEA-GEG-SEA-LWS-BOI-PDX-SEA-LAS on AS
User currently offlineboeing773ER From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 392 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (5 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 35651 times:

Quoting AV8AJET (Reply 9):

FLL is unlikely since it is primarily low yielding going to FLL. If BA were to have a flight at FLL, I feel it would be from LGW.

DTW; makes sense.

SJC; not too sure, I get the tech sector but I assume Asia is much more popular to them than LON.

SLC; could happen.

MSY; Probably LGW, I don't really know if there is much business traffic between MSY/LON.



Quoting flymia (Reply 6):

CLT; most likely, especially with the merger and US joining Oneworld
MSP; makes sense
PDX; I don't think so
STL; maybe, but the STL economy isn't doing well.


My guess; DTW, SLC, CLT, MSP, and TPA (a move from LGW)



Work Hard, Fly Right.
User currently offlinelaca773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 3945 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (5 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 35473 times:
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Quoting a380787 (Reply 15):
SJC isn't that long shot. Despite Bay Area being a strong presence of Star, BA has a competitive product that can lure some tech contracts their way (and Silicon Valley is rich as f... so filling front cabin is no issue) Lots of people would appreciate not having to endure 101 highway or San Mateo Bridge to get to SFO.

  . I've been thinking about SJC for a long time.
1. I think SJC would give BA lots of incentives to start service.
2. I do think service to the Silicon Valley is a no brainer contingent on the economy. Those who work there and need to fly to the UK and EU would be very appreciative of not having to drive up to SFO.
3. Next to no weather related delays compared to SFO.
4. Perfect route to start the 787 and if it does well they can eventually upgauge to the 77E or 789.

Quoting boeing773ER (Reply 17):
CLT; most likely, especially with the merger and US joining Oneworld
MSP; makes sense
PDX; I don't think so
STL; maybe, but the STL economy isn't doing well.


CLT seems like a given since it will become a OW hub with the AA-US merger.
PDX. Not sure if it can support an additional nonstop to the EU with DL flying AMS.
STL. If the demand is there, and they won't have to rely on transfers.
MSP. I don't think so. This is Sky Team-Delta Land. Doesn't DL have this market well covered from there, local and transfer??


User currently offlineadamh8297 From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 681 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (5 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 35446 times:

IND
CLT
BDL - though better served with an AA 757
MSY

and to think outside the box a bit

ANC


Also - wondering about SMF - does it leak to SFO?

Could they also switch TPA-LGW to LHR?


User currently onlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21416 posts, RR: 60
Reply 20, posted (5 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 35415 times:

The 767 could go anywhere in the USA, so why do they need the 787 to make it work? Granted fuel prices are higher now, but when fuel was cheaper, the 767 was viable for these routes.

Except...

Quoting adamh8297 (Reply 19):
and to think outside the box a bit

ANC

HNL



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2654 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 35112 times:

Quoting a380787 (Reply 15):
I'm really surprised LHR-DTW doesn't exist on BA considering LH does FRA-DTW

BA used to fly the route. My very first trip to the US involved a BA Tristar going LHR-DTW with a stop at Mirabel. Concerning FRA-DTW, Germany's car industry might have something to do with this flight.



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offline9w748capt From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 516 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 35016 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 21):

Correct - IIRC it used to continue to IAH so full routing was LHR-DTW-IAH-DTW-LHR. Wonder why BA stopped it - must have been the usual "tag-ons aren't profitable" line. Surely a dedicated DTW-LHR would work with the 787 - although front cabin demand might be lower from DTW than other outstations (such as AUS/SJC).


User currently offlinekkephart13 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 35025 times:

Quoting hpaeaa (Reply 7):
PIT, wasn't this tried by DL?

DL goes to CDG on a 752. And its doing well. The city of Pittsburgh gave DL $9 Million Dollars in Subsidies. Those expired in 2011 and DL Continues to run the route 6 days a week on a seasonal summer basis.


User currently offlineglobetrotter29 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 33 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 35013 times:

BDL would be fantastic. Not only is there solid O&D but with the connecting opportunities I don't think they'd have much trouble filling a B787.

User currently offlineUSAirALB From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 2976 posts, RR: 2
Reply 25, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 35771 times:

CLT, DTW, FLL, CLE, MSY would all be my guesses. PBI or RSW would be good guesses too, but I doubt BA would want to serve them ex LHR.

I'm hesitant to say BDL simply because the market is much more suited towards a flight to LHR on a AA 757.



E135/E140/E145/E70/E75/E90/CR2/CR7/717/732/733/734/735/73G/738/752/753/762/772/319/320/321/333
User currently offlineMikey711MN From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1395 posts, RR: 8
Reply 26, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 35649 times:

This should be a fun thread! Here goes...

MSY
CLT
STL
IND
BNA

-Mike



I plan on living forever. So far, so good...
User currently offlinedtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1135 posts, RR: 2
Reply 27, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 36454 times:

As much as I would like to see BA return to DTW I doubt that it will happen. With Delta going to twice daily DTW-LHR in the spring of 2014 I don't think the traffic is there for a third daily flight

User currently offlinelegacyins From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2022 posts, RR: 0
Reply 28, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 36420 times:

Quoting laca773 (Reply 18):
. I've been thinking about SJC for a long time.
1. I think SJC would give BA lots of incentives to start service.
2. I do think service to the Silicon Valley is a no brainer contingent on the economy. Those who work there and need to fly to the UK and EU would be very appreciative of not having to drive up to SFO.
3. Next to no weather related delays compared to SFO.
4. Perfect route to start the 787 and if it does well they can eventually upgauge to the 77E or 789.

lets dissect this. not that I do not believe SJC is not a possible candidate.

1) All airports have an incentive plan to try to get new carriers.
2) True, but this is not the hey day of the early dot com bust and if execs need to travel, they are more likely to travel in Y. The distance is no big deal. Try Beijing, London and even NY for traffic nightmares.
3) Weather delays at SFO for long hauls are very rare. They have left their destinations on their way to SFO long before a weather system set in. This year, there have been maybe 4 diverts for long hauls.
4) SJC is a 787 route, long and thin. Unlikely you would see anything bigger. IMO.

ANA is trying to make SJC work, I have heard their winter flight bookings are quite low, and the flight is a coterminal with SFO.



John@SFO
User currently offlineFlyingSicilian From Italy, joined Mar 2009, 1170 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 36317 times:

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 22):
- IIRC it used to continue to IAH so full routing was LHR-DTW-IAH-DTW-LHR. Wonder why BA stopped it - must have been the usual "tag-ons aren't profitable" line. Surely a dedicated DTW-LHR would work with the 787 - although front cabin demand might be lower from DTW than other outstations (such as AUS/SJC).

ending Bermuda II allowed them to fly from LHR to IAH non-stop so the tags were not needed.



Ciao Windjet mi manchi
User currently offlineATLgaUSA From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 143 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 36314 times:

I can't imagine BA starting MSY. There would be virtually no business traffic, so the yields would be trash. LHR slots are too valuable to start long range, low yielding routes.

User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 5944 posts, RR: 30
Reply 31, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 36324 times:
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Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 22):
Correct - IIRC it used to continue to IAH so full routing was LHR-DTW-IAH-DTW-LHR. Wonder why BA stopped it - must have been the usual "tag-ons aren't profitable" line. Surely a dedicated DTW-LHR would work with the 787 - although front cabin demand might be lower from DTW than other outstations (such as AUS/SJC).

I believe you are talking about the LHR-ORD-IAH-ORD-IAH. It stopped because the only reason it had to make that stop was due to the Bermuda agreements and impossibilty of having more than a certain number of nonstops to the UK from IAH. Once open skies arrived, the two cities became nonstop flights.



MGGS
User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2048 posts, RR: 1
Reply 32, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 36250 times:

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 20):
The 767 could go anywhere in the USA, so why do they need the 787 to make it work? Granted fuel prices are higher now, but when fuel was cheaper, the 767 was viable for these routes.

Back when fuel was cheaper BA was heavily restricted on where in the US they could fly from LHR though.


User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2649 posts, RR: 4
Reply 33, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 35935 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

I'm honestly surprised to see several people mention BDL. AMS was hampered by fuel costs, but it wasn't overly successful. I guess I never considered that BDL could sustain a transatlantic flight, though I suppose LHR is a better stop. Could it possibly be served by Openskies? I know they are a strange operation, but a 757 would probably be the best bet on the route. Although I'd love to see some transatlantic flights from my home airport, and I know several businessman that would love it as well.

Besides that
CLT- I agree it is a no brainer with the merger
DTW- I was honestly surprised they didn't serve Detroit, I'd have to imagine it is on the short list.
IND-A little skeptical, but it makes sense.

STL though I am not sold on. Did BA or AA run a LHR flight pre drawdown?
Pat



You push down on that yoke, the houses get bigger, you pull back on the yoke, the houses get bigger- Ken Foltz
User currently offlinedoug_Or From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3381 posts, RR: 3
Reply 34, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 35869 times:

Quoting boeing773ER (Reply 17):
SJC; not too sure, I get the tech sector but I assume Asia is much more popular to them than LON.

There is a lot of venture capital sloshing around the south bay, wonder if any of it has any connections to finance centers in London?

Quoting boeing773ER (Reply 17):
SLC; could happen.

Hard to imagine that much traffic being generated in SLC proper. Delta only started European flying in the last few years

Quoting boeing773ER (Reply 17):
PDX; I don't think so

I'd love to see it, but not sure if there enough traffic for 2 European flights here.

Quoting boeing773ER (Reply 17):
STL; maybe, but the STL economy isn't doing well.

It would seem to be a bad time to restart trans atalntic travel from STL.



When in doubt, one B pump off
User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2880 posts, RR: 5
Reply 35, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 35781 times:

Quoting hjulicher (Thread starter):
DTW
PIT
MSP
PDX
CLT
Quoting flymia (Reply 6):
As for where BA might go? I'm not really sure but my 5 guesses would be:
CLT if merger goes through,
MSP
PDX
BDL
CLE? PIT? STL? I find it hard to see them at any of these.
Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 13):
RSW
BDL
CLT
PDX
DTW

Well at least 3 other people believe in PDXs chances. BA has looked at PDX before, there are daily travelers on BAs SEA-LHR flight from the Portland metro area.

I think BA could capture enough Europe bound market share to fill a 787. LHs problem was the loads and yields did not warrant a 340, although I have heard that cargo was good PDX-FRA-PDX.

I think if AUS can support a 787 daily, then PDX can also support a flight.

My 5 guesses:

PDX
SJC
HNL
MSY
CLT

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 20):
HNL



Rule number One, NEVER underestimate the other guys greed
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12420 posts, RR: 100
Reply 36, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 35753 times:
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Quoting hjulicher (Thread starter):
The new flights will use existing slots from BA's short-haul European network. The new routes will be on top of the new services to Austin, TX.

I see far more short haul slots being converted to long haul. Maybe not to the USA, but in general...

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 20):
The 767 could go anywhere in the USA, so why do they need the 787 to make it work?

That would be before the BMI purchase and the expiration of Bermuda II (as already noted by Polot) *and* the poor TATL yield environment of 2008/2009. Now that BA has the slots, it only makes sense in today's fuel environment to do so with a much more efficient plane. Also, doesn't BA run their 767s at a fairly high utilization? Thus there weren't 767s available? (Note the question marks, I'm speculating.)

Quoting Polot (Reply 32):
Back when fuel was cheaper BA was heavily restricted on where in the US they could fly from LHR though.

True. It wasn't until 30 March 2008 that BA could open up more of the USA from LHR instead of LGW. Oil Peaked at $145 in July of 2008, so starting new routes with the 767 back then must have been daunting. Much better economics today with a 787 and oil at a mere

I think much of this is due to recovering yield too. BA now has the rights (from LHR), the slots at LHR, business class passengers flying TATL in J again, and the BMI slots. So only now is BA able to open the new cities.

Lightsaber



I've posted how many times?!?
User currently offlineas739x From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 5998 posts, RR: 24
Reply 37, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 35792 times:

Quoting adamh8297 (Reply 19):
Also - wondering about SMF - does it leak to SFO?

No

Quoting laca773 (Reply 18):
3. Next to no weather related delays compared to SFO.

BA hardly feels the effects of ATC delays at SFO. They are not given flow times and other then do some holds on the approach, but mostly run near schedule in bad weather. They could feel a little issue in regards to connection passengers though.



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlinePDX88 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 152 posts, RR: 0
Reply 38, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 35497 times:

Why are there so many doubters for BA to fly LHR-PDX? With a 787 on the route, DL and BA could coexist profitably. I know there are plenty of business travelers who would much prefer connecting thru LHR instead of AMS. BA isn't shy about going head to head against DL either, recently increasing LHR-SEA to 10x weekly upon DL announcing it's new SEA-LHR service.

BA has seriously considered PDX before...


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5215 posts, RR: 7
Reply 39, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 35181 times:

Quoting hpaeaa (Reply 7):
I would love to see CLE but is there enough traffic that BA could pick up to the network (anyone know?)? PIT, wasn't this tried by DL?

CLE generates about 250 pax per day each way with Europe and the Middle East, with London the largest single traffic point. I'd like to see it too, but I think PIT is more likely if the AA/US merger goes through. There is still a good reservoir of US frequent flyers in PIT to feed the AA/BA joint venture



Consilivm: Cave ne nothi te vexant
User currently offlineBigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2887 posts, RR: 6
Reply 40, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 35186 times:

My guesses are Charlotte (pending merger), Pittsburgh, Indianapolis and Portland, OR. St. Louis is a possibility simply because it is one of the largest US metros with no non stops to Europe. When they announced Austin that was a big surprise, so essentially any medium sized city with a market to Europe and access to corporate accounts could work.

User currently onlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21416 posts, RR: 60
Reply 41, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 34573 times:

Quoting Polot (Reply 32):

Yes I forgot that when fuel was cheaper BII required that one city lose its LHR rights if another city was added. This meant that routes like ANC-LHR were dormant but new cities couldn't be added.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineBigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2887 posts, RR: 6
Reply 42, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 34370 times:

Quoting PDX88 (Reply 38):
Why are there so many doubters for BA to fly LHR-PDX? With a 787 on the route, DL and BA could coexist profitably. I know there are plenty of business travelers who would much prefer connecting thru LHR instead of AMS. BA isn't shy about going head to head against DL either, recently increasing LHR-SEA to 10x weekly upon DL announcing it's new SEA-LHR service.

BA has seriously considered PDX before...

AS could expand their relationship with BA to include feed in/out of Portland, the flight might have a chance for success.


User currently offlinePITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 3034 posts, RR: 4
Reply 43, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 34252 times:

Quoting CairnterriAIR (Reply 4):
BDL....quite a few companies in both Hartford and Springfield have pledged they would support a reliable trans-atlantic flight.

What has changed in Hartford after NW's BDL-AMS was a flop after just one season? I just don't see BA adding this. Perhaps AA with a 757 in a few years, but not before 4-5 other markets have been tackled.

Quoting hpaeaa (Reply 7):
PIT, wasn't this tried by DL?

Delta has never served PIT-London. They will be starting their 6th year serving PIT-CDG.


CLT is a no brainer. After that I would think MSP, PIT, STL, DTW, SJC in no particular order.

I'm not sure why PDX ranks so high in this thread as it has good service to Europe and beyond via AMS, lost service by LH (IIRC with a travel bank in place), and doesn't particularly have a high number of corporations compared to the others mentioned here.

[Edited 2013-11-06 23:18:33]


FLYi
User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4522 posts, RR: 18
Reply 44, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 33529 times:

Quoting Mikey711MN (Reply 26):
MSY
CLT
STL
IND
BNA

With the exception of CLT since it already has service to Europe, it would be clever of a European carrier to add spokes to those markets. That won't leave much international demand for U.S. carriers to use as feed through their hubs.



Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2654 posts, RR: 2
Reply 45, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 33103 times:

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 22):
Correct - IIRC it used to continue to IAH so full routing was LHR-DTW-IAH-DTW-LHR.

In the 80s it was LHR-YMX-DTW-YMX-DTW.



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offlineMACDADDY From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2004, 168 posts, RR: 0
Reply 46, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 32387 times:

Defo Portland, DTW and CLT (with Merger) id say, and heres a long shot with the 787, Hawaii!? - Can it do it on range??

Id really like Boise, ID and Anchorage, AL - but thats just me and id only fly once per year - probably not enough for a service to start, but there you go

MAC



www.plane-sight-images.photoshelter.com
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 6942 posts, RR: 18
Reply 47, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 32293 times:

Some I see

Quoting arielwar (Reply 1):
If the merger goes through I think CLT will be a no brainer

  

Quoting treebeard787 (Reply 14):
IND would be interesting.

I can easily see this! IND gets shafted with their air service yet they have an amazing economy.

I see PIT coming back too,

STL,
maybe MSP
maaaaaaybe PDX  



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlineVCy From Cyprus, joined Dec 2012, 236 posts, RR: 0
Reply 48, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 31512 times:
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I d also say New Orleans.. No direct service to Europe so why not ? Surely they could make it work with their 787. Just a thought  

User currently offlineJohnwaynebobbet From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2013, 59 posts, RR: 0
Reply 49, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 30939 times:

I don't think you will see DTW.

User currently offlinekoruman From Australia, joined Feb 2006, 3528 posts, RR: 5
Reply 50, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 30908 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 47):
IND gets shafted with their air service yet they have an amazing economy.

I really wouldn't say that.

I visit Indianapolis most years to visit relatives, but it is a city with a great but massively underutilised airport because it has a handful of big companies superimposed upon a city and metropolitan area which is rapidly regressing to third world status, and where only a tiny fraction of residents possess a passport.

The reason why it doesn't have medium-haul or long-haul international routes is because the market would be minute. You would fill a few seats at the front with a handful of corporate passengers and would then have to massively discount economy class because no leisure travellers would visit Indianapolis for anything other than low-yield VFR and the local population does not exactly have cosmopolitan tastes.


User currently offlinebennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7209 posts, RR: 3
Reply 51, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 30756 times:

Any news about which short haul destinations are likely to be axed to provide the slots?.

User currently onlineknope2001 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2818 posts, RR: 30
Reply 52, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 30159 times:

A quick list of largest urban areas on the US and their BA or transatlantic information. Note that population is *not* the perfect yardstick to judge air travel demand, but it's of some interest.

23.3 ….. nyc ….. BA
18.2 ….. lax ….. BA
9.9 ….. ord ….. BA
9.3 ….. dca ….. BA
8.4 ….. sfo ….. BA
8.0 ….. bos ….. BA
7.1 ….. phl ….. BA
7.1 ….. dal ….. BA
6.4 ….. mia ….. BA
6.4 ….. hou ….. BA
6.1 ….. atl ….. BA
5.3 ….. dtw ….. former BA, has DL to LHR
4.4 ….. sea ….. BA
4.3 ….. phx ….. BA
3.8 ….. msp ….. has DL to LHR
3.5 ….. cle ….. former CO to LGW
3.2 ….. den ….. BA
3.2 ….. san ….. BA
3.0 ….. pdx ….. has LH to FRA
2.9 ….. mco ….. PA
2.9 ….. stl ….. former TW/AA to LGW
2.8 ….. tpa ….. BA
2.7 ….. pit ….. former BA, has DL to CDG
2.5 ….. smf …..
2.4 ….. mci …..
2.4 ….. clt ….. former BA, has US to LHR
2.3 ….. slc ….. has DL to CDG
2.3 ….. cmh …..
2.3 ….. ind …..
2.3 ….. las ….. BA
2.2 ….. cvg ….. has DL to CDG
2.2 ….. sat …..
2.1 ….. mke …..
2.1 ….. bdl ….. former NW to AMS
2.0 ….. rdu ….. has AA to LHR
1.8 ….. bna ….. former AA to LHR
1.8 ….. orf …..
1.8 ….. aus ….. BA
1.6 ….. gso …..
1.5 ….. sdf …..
1.5 ….. msy ….. former BA
1.5 ….. jax …..

Note that these are "consolidated" metro areas, and so (for example) SJC and OAK are part of SFO, PVD is part of BOS, BWI is part of WAS, etc. In some cases within a single area BA already serves more than one airport (IAD and BWI for example) or they could choose to.

[Edited 2013-11-07 04:43:39]

User currently offlineSelseyBill From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2013, 118 posts, RR: 0
Reply 53, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 28578 times:

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 51):
Any news about which short haul destinations are likely to be axed to provide the slots?.

There are plenty of options to 'find' slots by juggling seats on short haul, (ABZ comes to mind). The slots might not necessarily all come from short-haul, future A380 deployment might also free up some long-distance slots. BA has plenty of flexibility to free up slots for new USA B787 ventures.

FWIW, my short list would be DTW/ IND/ PDX/ SAT/ SJC and maybe CMH as an outsider.

I'm not convinced BA will re-start CLT, given the JV with AA/US, and its possible that AA could look at SAT rather than BA. I for one do not see them flying LHR-MSP/ CLE/ JAX/ MCI/ STL or PIT, or LGW-FLL or HNL for that matter

BA could also look at Floridian cities from LHR like MCO & TPA, as these cities mature from holiday destinations into stronger all-year round propositions.

Good to see BA continuing to dip their toes into new markets.


Selsey Bill


User currently offlineglobetrotter29 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 33 posts, RR: 0
Reply 54, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 27174 times:

Quoting PITrules (Reply 43):
What has changed in Hartford after NW's BDL-AMS was a flop after just one season? I just don't see BA adding this. Perhaps AA with a 757 in a few years, but not before 4-5 other markets have been tackled.

The NW service was launched during the worst economic conditions in the past few decades. Now that the economy is much more stable (at least in the U.S.), there is a much greater likelihood of success for a trans-Atlantic flight from BDL. While Connecticut's economy is tepid, there is still an tremendous amount of economic activity in the area. Five Fortune 500 companies are headquartered in the Greater Hartord area. Over a dozen colleges and universities attract students from all over the globe. Additionally, demographics also play into the equation. There is a lot of money in the region with people who can afford to fly.

Currently, almost all local international traffic is siphoned off to Boston or New York. With the O&D to one of the most heavily visited and economical powerful city in the world, in addition to British's extensive global network, I believe the route is extremly lucrative.

Or this could all just be wishful thinking.


User currently offlinerichierich From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 4199 posts, RR: 6
Reply 55, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 26857 times:

Quoting hjulicher (Thread starter):
Since no one else has caught on this, I was wondering which cities would be prime candidates for the new service?
My thoughts are:
DTW
PIT
MSP
PDX
CLT

Kind of funny to talk about these as new routes. It doesn't seem that long ago that BA used to serve DTW, PIT and CLT. Not sure about MSP, did BA metal ever fly there? And they might have been routes to LGW not LHR but I guess the B787s are allowing BA to re-evaluate these cities.

Quoting CairnterriAIR (Reply 4):
BDL....quite a few companies in both Hartford and Springfield have pledged they would support a reliable trans-atlantic flight.

After the Northwest experiment to AMS a few years back, I don't know if BDL can support a daily TATL flight (especially without incentives) although LHR would make more sense than Amsterdam, in my opinion. I would be excited if it were to happen and it would be a big coup for the largest airport in my home state but I'll have to see it to believe it.



None shall pass!!!!
User currently offline777STL From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3372 posts, RR: 3
Reply 56, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 26844 times:

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 33):
STL though I am not sold on. Did BA or AA run a LHR flight pre drawdown?

TW/AA ran a flight to LGW up until about November 2003 when AA commenced the first big drawback of service.

Quoting doug_Or (Reply 34):
It would seem to be a bad time to restart trans atalntic travel from STL.

The irony here is that STL has far more big business than some of the other more popular choices here. Boeing Defense HQ, Inbev, Express Scripts, Graybar, Emerson, Monsanto, Edward Jones, Centene, etc. All of which send folks across the Atlantic regularly.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 35):
I think if AUS can support a 787 daily, then PDX can also support a flight.

If we're using PDX as the benchmark, here STL could probably support two flights. (No, I don't really believe that.....)

Here's my five:

STL
PIT
SJC
CLT
BDL



PHX based
User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4143 posts, RR: 1
Reply 57, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 26688 times:
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Quoting hpaeaa (Reply 7):
PIT, wasn't this tried by DL?

PIT airport authority keeps asking for increased international service. But when they finally get it, no one supports it.

But BA works at BWI, PHL, IAD, multiple NYC airports -- so maybe PIT-LHR service to an Anglophone country with onward connections might work out.


User currently offlineBA0197 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2011, 229 posts, RR: 0
Reply 58, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 26391 times:

And BA continues their history of being the most influential (and I do think the largest) foreign flag carrier in America. If they do add these 5 destinations, BA will serve 25 US airports from LON (excluding OpenSkies).

I think CLT and PIT are inevitable (almost given if the AA/US merger were to go through). They are both relatively short returns and would connect oneworld hubs together in the event of a merger.

HNL- a very possible contender. This is the sort of route that the 787 was developed for and there is great demand for UK-HNL holiday routes and is currently not served. Its relatively expensive nature could also suit it as a LHR route (to fit into the small selection of premium LHR-served holiday destinations by BA). However the length of the journey may need 2 dedicated aircraft if it were to be a daily service.

PDX- could see this. BA is naturally going to be more sussesful than LH due to BA serving the UK from the US and a 787 is a right fit. This might coincide with a reduction of service into SEA or a non-daily operation. BA could develop a better relationship with AS for feed.

SJC- a real contender. This would be brought into daily service (perhaps even with a 777 or 787-9) however, I would say that this would have to come with a service reduction (more likely a downgrade) into SFO, yet if they could somehow capture an undiscovered market there they may be able to keep all services. Former AA hub as well.

STL- skeptical but a possibility (given AUS). STL is equivelent to AUS in the terms of AA presence and STL is a former AA hub however I cannot help but think that a trail period with an AA 757 (if it can make it) would be better before handing it over to BA's 787.

BNA- I think not. Simply not enough J-class demand (and that is what BA relies on being one of the world's most premium configured airlines in the world). Refer to STL.

MSY- humh. I've always thought that this could be one of BA's LHR-premium holiday routes (obvisouly on a non-daily basis), however I consider it more of a BA intra-Caribbean route that required a second stop to fill up seats. I've always imagined an LHR-MSY-HNL or a LHR-SJU-MSY. Unfortunately I don't think BA are willing to do an intra US flight as they could not pick up yield due to freedom rights. Perhaps LHR-NAS-MSY to make BA more use of BA's NAS base.

DTW- possible. I have no doubt that this route would work with a daily 787, however I do think it would take time to convert some of DL's local flyers to BA's service. I feel that this route is really a one-airline only service and with DL's loyal FF base there and with AA's weak position at DTW, it will be a challenge. That said, BA's product and advertising could make it easier for them. I don't think BA has any fear necessarily of going head to head against DL.

SAT- not likely. BA is very big in West Texas as it is (2 daily 744/772/773 to IAH, daily 744 to DFW and now daily 787 to SAN). IAH-AUS-SAT all within a 3 hour drive of each other at the most. Weak J class demand I would guess as well.

SLC- definitely possible. No direct link to Europe and a high J-class demand and winter ski demand (perfect from LHR). BA again would have to try and invade into DL territory but with their product and reputation, they could easily make this work as a daily 787.

My short list:

CLT
PIT
SLC
PDX
HNL

BA need to continue to enforce their presence in the US and secure that they are THE airline to fly to the UK/Europe/ME/Africa with. A larger presence is a good think (especially with the rise of DL/VS) and BA I think would welcome an AA/US merger.

[Edited 2013-11-07 08:26:54]

User currently offlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5225 posts, RR: 25
Reply 59, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 26294 times:

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 58):
SLC- definitely possible. No direct link to Europe

DL flies SLC-CDG.



Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently onlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4058 posts, RR: 1
Reply 60, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 26256 times:

Quoting arielwar (Reply 1):

If the merger goes through I think CLT will be a no brainer

I see that if the merger doesn't go through, than it will be no brainer.

Quoting hjulicher (Thread starter):
DTW
Quoting a380787 (Reply 15):
FLL but probably out of LGW

I'm really surprised LHR-DTW doesn't exist on BA considering LH does FRA-DTW

FLL would not be a year round destination if one at all. AA and BA into MIA seem to have that area covered

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 22):
Correct - IIRC it used to continue to IAH so full routing was LHR-DTW-IAH-DTW-LHR. Wonder why BA stopped it - must have been the usual "tag-ons aren't profitable" line. Surely a dedicated DTW-LHR would work with the 787 - although front cabin demand might be lower from DTW than other outstations (such as AUS/SJC).

The reason for the discontinuation of the DTW service was not due to the tag on but because the Bermuda II treaty had expired and DTW was one of the cities that predated that agreement with PA flying from DTW to LHR with stopovers at IAD and later JFK. I just don't see there being that much traffic between DTW and London, UK. DL has the route covered pretty well.

As for the DTW-FRA flight, you do realize that Chrysler was once owned by Mercedes and that route had a alot of traffic on it for the auto industry. What surprises me is that there is not a flight to either Rome or Milan now that Fiat owns Chrysler. But that is for a different thread.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlinehjulicher From Liechtenstein, joined Feb 2005, 861 posts, RR: 2
Reply 61, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 26281 times:

Quoting Johnwaynebobbet (Reply 49):
I don't think you will see DTW.

I find it hard to believe that OneWorld would not serve this important market TATL, One World has so little presence in Detroit (save for RJ to Amman) that IMHO it's a huge gap in their network. Yes, AA serves DTW from ORD, NYC, MIA, and DFW but ORD and LGA see only regional service.

BA served the route until 2008 when the world economy collapsed. DL doesn't start their 2nd flight until Su14, so there is time for BA to come in. BA flew DTW for over 50 years, and lost market share to competitors. I think DTW is a perfect example of how to loose out to your competition for not remaining competitive in the local market. Despite the Automotive industry shifting to Germany from England, many of the O&Ds are not directly served and can be connected via LHR or FRA. It's a matter of successful corporate contracting IMO.

Since Willie Walsh specifically mentioned the economic viability of the new routes with 787, I think that some former routes must be revisited.



LH 442
User currently offlineChrisNH From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 4011 posts, RR: 2
Reply 62, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 26249 times:

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 33):
I'm honestly surprised to see several people mention BDL

I am, too. BDL makes no more sense than places like Albuquerque or Tulsa or Dayton. And those cities aren't close to big gateways such as BOS & JFK like BDL is.


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8204 posts, RR: 3
Reply 63, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 26242 times:

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 13):
MSP can barely support its current flight.

True but if the merger goes through, AA/US will be quite large in MSP. LGA, DCA, ORD, LAX possible, MIA, DFW, PHX, PHL, CLT. SEA via codeshare.

I agree it is a longshot for BA to serve MSP, but OneWorld could be a sturdy #2 in that market.


User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5229 posts, RR: 14
Reply 64, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 26149 times:

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 58):
SAT- not likely. BA is very big in West Texas as it is (2 daily 744/772/773 to IAH, daily 744 to DFW and now daily 787 to SAN). IAH-SAN-SAT all within a 3 hour drive of each other at the most.


I think you meant 'AUS' instead of 'SAN'.  

bb


User currently offlineBA0197 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2011, 229 posts, RR: 0
Reply 65, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 26087 times:

Quoting SANFan (Reply 64):
I think you meant 'AUS' instead of 'SAN'.  

bb

Thanks for the correction. All these possible destinations!  


User currently offlinedoug_Or From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3381 posts, RR: 3
Reply 66, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 25920 times:

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 58):

I think CLT and PIT are inevitable (almost given if the AA/US merger were to go through). They are both relatively short returns and would connect oneworld hubs together in the event of a merger.

PIT isn't a US hub anymore.

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 58):
PDX- could see this. BA is naturally going to be more sussesful than LH due to BA serving the UK from the US and a 787 is a right fit. This might coincide with a reduction of service into SEA or a non-daily operation. BA could develop a better relationship with AS for feed.

I was rather shocked to see there wasn't a codeshare on this already.

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 58):
LHR-MSY-HNL

1200nm out of the way and as you said, a no traffic tag. More to the point, a 3600 nm no traffic tag. In te age od codeshares and alliances? definitely not.

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 58):
SLC- definitely possible. No direct link to Europe and a high J-class demand and winter ski demand (perfect from LHR). BA again would have to try and invade into DL territory but with their product and reputation, they could easily make this work as a daily 787.

SLC does have DL to CDG



When in doubt, one B pump off
User currently offlineyellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 5885 posts, RR: 2
Reply 67, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 25774 times:

my bets would be DTW, CLT, MSY, SLC and moving TPA to LHR.

Quoting ATLgaUSA (Reply 30):
LHR slots are too valuable to start long range, low yielding routes.

Like LAS?



When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5215 posts, RR: 7
Reply 68, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 25748 times:

Quoting doug_Or (Reply 66):
PIT isn't a US hub anymore.

US still carries a million pax a year in/out of PIT and retains a large residual pool of frequent flyers in the region. The AA merger, assuming it happens, invites a bit of strategic expansion in PIT. LHR would make a lot of sense.



Consilivm: Cave ne nothi te vexant
User currently offlinetexdravid From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1338 posts, RR: 0
Reply 69, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 25664 times:

SAT is way too close to AUS.
HNL is too thin and very long. 7237 miles?
Most British people love Florida and the southern Mediterranean.



Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
User currently offlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6346 posts, RR: 9
Reply 70, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 25405 times:

my guess is BDL and RSW

User currently offlineapfpilot From United States of America, joined Jun 2013, 287 posts, RR: 0
Reply 71, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 24714 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 50):
area which is rapidly regressing to third world status, and where only a tiny fraction of residents possess a passport.

What in the hell are you talking about? Regressing to third world status?

Just major companies:

Eli Lilly
Exact Target
Angies List
Rolls Royce
Roche NA head quarters
Brightpoint
Wellpoint
Cummins
Simon Malls

Not to mention that Dallara, HPD and the other associated IndyCar companies are based here as well.



Opinions are my own and do not reflect an endorsement or position of my employer.
User currently offlineadamh8297 From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 681 posts, RR: 0
Reply 72, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 24567 times:

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 62):
BDL makes no more sense than places like Albuquerque or Tulsa or Dayton

BDL's catchment population is larger and i'm willing to bet its a bit more affluent and there's more industry that could be served by BA's LHR hub.

You have: Yale/New Haven, UConn and other institutions, Hartford's insurance industry, Waterbury, Bridgeport and anyone else who does not want to go into JFK or BOS.

I still believe AA should serve this with a 757 rather than BA 787 however.


User currently offlineaf773atmsp From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2633 posts, RR: 1
Reply 73, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 24542 times:

Quoting richierich (Reply 55):

BA has never served MSP, but the airport commission has discussed it in the past. I would welcome them as our third European carrier (after FI and AF), but I wonder how Delta would respond.



It ain't no normal MD80 its a Super 80!
User currently offlineSFOA380 From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 157 posts, RR: 0
Reply 74, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 24158 times:
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Quoting apfpilot (Reply 71):
What in the hell are you talking about? Regressing to third world status?

Just major companies:

Eli Lilly
Exact Target
Angies List
Rolls Royce
Roche NA head quarters
Brightpoint
Wellpoint
Cummins
Simon Malls

...obviously out to lunch. Indianapolis is an awesome, vibrant city! One point of clarification is that Roche Diagnostics is based in Indy. The Swiss giant's overall NA HQ is in the San Francisco area.


User currently offlinelaca773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 3945 posts, RR: 2
Reply 75, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 23873 times:
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Quoting as739x (Reply 37):
BA hardly feels the effects of ATC delays at SFO. They are not given flow times and other then do some holds on the approach, but mostly run near schedule in bad weather. They could feel a little issue in regards to connection passengers though.

This is true, and thank you for pointing that out, as739x.

In any event, the 787-8 makes these routes a possibility, otherwise, they wouldn't. Perhaps BA will need a follow up order for additional 787-8s.


User currently offline747megatop From United States of America, joined May 2007, 610 posts, RR: 0
Reply 76, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 23753 times:
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Quoting laca773 (Reply 18):
I've been thinking about SJC for a long time.
1. I think SJC would give BA lots of incentives to start service.
2. I do think service to the Silicon Valley is a no brainer contingent on the economy. Those who work there and need to fly to the UK and EU would be very appreciative of not having to drive up to SFO.
3. Next to no weather related delays compared to SFO.
4. Perfect route to start the 787 and if it does well they can eventually upgauge to the 77E or 789.

Similarly, down here in OC i would have wished for BA and other airlines to fly non stops to Europe out of SNA but i guess that will never happen because of the short runway. Would have saved us OC folks the hassle of driving up 405 to LAX  .


User currently offline777STL From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3372 posts, RR: 3
Reply 77, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 23482 times:

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 71):
What in the hell are you talking about? Regressing to third world status?

If you search his post history, you'll find he's not shy in proclaiming all US airlines to be trash and all Americans to be mouthbreathing, simpletons. It's par for the course.



PHX based
User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4143 posts, RR: 1
Reply 78, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 23424 times:
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Quoting texdravid (Reply 69):
SAT is way too close to AUS.

I believe it's 97 miles. But PHL is 97 miles from EWR -- and just a bit further from BWI.

IAD and BWI are 52 miles apart, and both have BA service.


User currently offlineBA0197 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2011, 229 posts, RR: 0
Reply 79, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 23319 times:

As I understand it as well BA 787-9's will be 4-class birds. Does anyone have an idea on the delivery date of the 789s?

User currently offlineapfpilot From United States of America, joined Jun 2013, 287 posts, RR: 0
Reply 80, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 23214 times:

Quoting SFOA380 (Reply 74):
...obviously out to lunch. Indianapolis is an awesome, vibrant city! One point of clarification is that Roche Diagnostics is based in Indy. The Swiss giant's overall NA HQ is in the San Francisco area.

Wow, I didn't know that! Their complex is less than a mile away from where I live and I never payed attention to the signs. Thanks for the correction!



Opinions are my own and do not reflect an endorsement or position of my employer.
User currently offlineUnited_fan From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 7383 posts, RR: 8
Reply 81, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 23064 times:

With no OW feed,why would they want to go to DTW ?


'Empathy was yesterday...Today, you're wasting my Mother-F'ing time' - Heat.
User currently offlinembm3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 818 posts, RR: 1
Reply 82, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 22766 times:
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Quoting hpaeaa (Reply 7):
I would love to see CLE but is there enough traffic that BA could pick up to the network (anyone know?)
Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 39):
CLE generates about 250 pax per day each way with Europe and the Middle East, with London the largest single traffic point. I'd like to see it too, but I think PIT is more likely if the AA/US merger goes through.

While I think CLE could and would easily support the flight, there is no way BA will accept the current FIS facilities. I also agree that PIT is a more likely candidate.



Let Me Tell You, Landing A 772ER Is Harder Than It Looks!
User currently offlineLexy From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 2515 posts, RR: 9
Reply 83, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 22680 times:
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With the growth and amount of lobbying by the MNAA, I wouldn't rule out BNA on the 787. Most on here think of Nashville as a hamlet, but it's one of the hottest markets IN THE COUNTRY and has been for a while!

It has important business ties to Europe and a vibrant tourist/convention scene.

[Edited 2013-11-07 11:38:17]


Nashville, Tennessee KBNA
User currently offlineATLgaUSA From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 143 posts, RR: 0
Reply 84, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 22298 times:

Quoting Lexy (Reply 83):
It has important business ties to Europe and a vibrant tourist/convention scene.

I'm not overly familiar with the Nashville business community. What companies make up Nashville's "important business ties to Europe"?


User currently offlineLexy From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 2515 posts, RR: 9
Reply 85, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 22211 times:
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Quoting ATLgaUSA (Reply 84):

I'm not overly familiar with the Nashville business community. What companies make up Nashville's "important business ties to Europe"?

I don't have a break down in front of me. I would think, just off the top of my head, that the healthcare industry by itself would be a good start.



Nashville, Tennessee KBNA
User currently offlineely747 From Slovakia, joined Jan 2013, 140 posts, RR: 0
Reply 86, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 22113 times:

Could Buffalo make it among the 5 and possibly attract some Canadians as well as tourists from the continent visiting the Niagara falls? Taxes should be less then what YYZ charges.

[Edited 2013-11-07 12:16:10]

User currently onlineknope2001 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2818 posts, RR: 30
Reply 87, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 22074 times:

A lot depends on what they are really going for.

Some of the largest non-BA markets are hub markets for other airlines with ample transpacific service. Is someplace like MSP or CLT big enough to support BA London service when DL and US so heavily dominate those cities? This hurts DTW, MSP, CLT, SLC, CVG Are any of those cities big enough to support their hub carrier *and* BA the way PHL and DFW do?

Some moderate-sized nonhub cities already have a link to Europe, and that may siphon off enough traffic to stunt BA. If Pittsburgh didn't have seasonal nonstops to Paris, perhaps it would be more attractive to BA. But BA will get fewer people using London as their European launch point or connecting city with Paris nonstops. This hurts PDX, PIT, RDU It doesn't seem as likely to me that these can support BA on top of their existing TATL service.

Then we get to the list of cities with no current TATL service. In order of population they are
CLE at 3.5m
STL at 2.9m
SMF, MCI, CMH, IND, SAT, MKE, and BDL at 2.1m-2.5m
BNA, ORF, GSO, SDF, MSY and JAX at 1.5m-1.8m

I think in all or most of this group it will come down to market specifics:
--Is the market "owned" by someone which could stunt the prospects?
--Does the market have significant business ties to Europe and especially England?
--How much tourist and VFR traffic can the the market generate which originates in Europe?
--Is the true market already being serviced by ample international service at a nearby airport?
--How wealthy or poor is the market, including the propensity for international travel?
--Is the market offering significant financial incentives?

Based on all this, my gut says CLT, STL, MCI, MSY and one wild card....RSW


User currently offlineLexy From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 2515 posts, RR: 9
Reply 88, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 21969 times:
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Quoting knope2001 (Reply 87):
A lot depends on what they are really going for.

Some of the largest non-BA markets are hub markets for other airlines with ample transpacific service. Is someplace like MSP or CLT big enough to support BA London service when DL and US so heavily dominate those cities? This hurts DTW, MSP, CLT, SLC, CVG Are any of those cities big enough to support their hub carrier *and* BA the way PHL and DFW do?

Some moderate-sized nonhub cities already have a link to Europe, and that may siphon off enough traffic to stunt BA. If Pittsburgh didn't have seasonal nonstops to Paris, perhaps it would be more attractive to BA. But BA will get fewer people using London as their European launch point or connecting city with Paris nonstops. This hurts PDX, PIT, RDU It doesn't seem as likely to me that these can support BA on top of their existing TATL service.

Then we get to the list of cities with no current TATL service. In order of population they are
CLE at 3.5m
STL at 2.9m
SMF, MCI, CMH, IND, SAT, MKE, and BDL at 2.1m-2.5m
BNA, ORF, GSO, SDF, MSY and JAX at 1.5m-1.8m

I think in all or most of this group it will come down to market specifics:
--Is the market "owned" by someone which could stunt the prospects?
--Does the market have significant business ties to Europe and especially England?
--How much tourist and VFR traffic can the the market generate which originates in Europe?
--Is the true market already being serviced by ample international service at a nearby airport?
--How wealthy or poor is the market, including the propensity for international travel?
--Is the market offering significant financial incentives?

Based on all this, my gut says CLT, STL, MCI, MSY and one wild card....RSW

Interesting final list. I disagree with it (sans CLT), but interesting none the less.

How can you justify MCI service to LHR? But not IND, BNA, or BDL?



Nashville, Tennessee KBNA
User currently offlineflflyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 65 posts, RR: 0
Reply 89, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 21749 times:

Move the flight from LGW to LHR for MCO

User currently offlineyellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 5885 posts, RR: 2
Reply 90, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 21659 times:

Or BA taking over the AA LHR flight at RDU?


When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlinetortugamon From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 3209 posts, RR: 10
Reply 91, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 21602 times:

I feel like many of the routes mentioned seem likely. I don't think I have seen RDU on the list. CLT makes sense because of the connections with AA/US but RDU is very similar to AUS in that it has premium traffic and cargo needs. I don't see both happening though so CLT probably has the advantage.

My others was SLC, MSP, DTW, and SJC. FLL out of LGW sounded appealing but I think the TUIs of the world will have this price-conscious leisure traveler all figured out. MSY/IND/BWI were the next in line on my cut list.

I think we will see more carriers using the 787-8 like this. Send it to small markets and see if there is demand. If so, send the big jets, if not, move on test a different market. I don't think the 787 will make these premium airlines a ton of money like the 787-9 will but it will be a lower cost way of testing new markets before fully committing a big aircraft. I hope it works well for BA.

tortugamon


User currently onlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3389 posts, RR: 2
Reply 92, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 21420 times:

Quoting legacyins (Reply 28):
2) True, but this is not the hey day of the early dot com bust and if execs need to travel, they are more likely to travel in Y. The distance is no big deal. Try Beijing, London and even NY for traffic nightmares.

The valley is pretty much booming right now and there is plenty of money living in the South Bay. Fly from SFO or SJC? That's a no brainer, many like me work hard to avoid SFO.

Quoting knope2001 (Reply 52):
Note that these are "consolidated" metro areas, and so (for example) SJC and OAK are part of SFO,

San Jose by itself is the 10th largest city in the country but not one non-stop to Europe.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24075 posts, RR: 22
Reply 93, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 21129 times:

With the 787 BA could consider becoming the first nonstop operator from Europe to HNL, about 3 x week or so. From Europe it's a relatively premium market. Passengers from other parts of Europe would probably prefer to connect in Europe to a nonstop to Hawaii rather than connect in the U.S. and have a very long domestic sector with buy-on-board service, and dealing with customs/immigration and claiming their bags etc. before the connecting flight. Nonstop service should also generate quite a bit of new traffic that prefers direct flights.

LHR-HNL is less than 300 nm further than BA's current longest nonstop route LHR-EZE (6,289 nm vs 5,999 nm).


User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4522 posts, RR: 18
Reply 94, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 20623 times:

Can someone summarize BA's 787 order and delivery situation? This would help put this discussion in a bit more perspective. I have no idea if we are looking at 2014, 2015 or 2020+ as a time frame.

Thanks in advance.



Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineBoeing74741R From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2007, 1134 posts, RR: 0
Reply 95, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 20509 times:

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 91):
My others was SLC, MSP, DTW, and SJC. FLL out of LGW sounded appealing but I think the TUIs of the world will have this price-conscious leisure traveler all figured out. MSY/IND/BWI were the next in line on my cut list.

I can't see FLL being operated when MIA just down the road is also served, unless traffic is due to pick up sufficiently from the likes of cruises and demand for South East Florida in general to justify serving both.

In terms of Florida, I'd say there's more chance of MCO gaining a LHR flight in addition to LGW or moving one of MCO or TPA than FLL for as long as MIA is served.


User currently offline777STL From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3372 posts, RR: 3
Reply 96, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 20425 times:

Quoting knope2001 (Reply 87):
Some of the largest non-BA markets are hub markets for other airlines with ample transpacific service. Is someplace like MSP or CLT big enough to support BA London service when DL and US so heavily dominate those cities? This hurts DTW, MSP, CLT, SLC, CVG Are any of those cities big enough to support their hub carrier *and* BA the way PHL and DFW do?

I agree.

MSP and DTW have been repeated several times, but is there really that much of a market in a second tier US city that is already a large hub for another airline/alliance?

Quoting knope2001 (Reply 87):
Based on all this, my gut says CLT, STL, MCI, MSY and one wild card....RSW

RSW is a darkhorse, but I could see it happening. There's enough catchment in southwest Florida, south of Tampa and northwest of MIA, to make such a route work. Fort Myers, Naples, Marco Island, even as far north as Sarasota. There's definitely plenty of money in the area. Based off of my personal experiences, there's no shortage of Europeans visiting the area either.



PHX based
User currently offlinesteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9112 posts, RR: 18
Reply 97, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 20298 times:

Quoting knope2001 (Reply 87):
Some moderate-sized nonhub cities already have a link to Europe, and that may siphon off enough traffic to stunt BA. If Pittsburgh didn't have seasonal nonstops to Paris, perhaps it would be more attractive to BA. But BA will get fewer people using London as their European launch point or connecting city with Paris nonstops. This hurts PDX, PIT, RDU It doesn't seem as likely to me that these can support BA on top of their existing TATL service.

That's a fair assumtion and one that I somewhat agree with. However, London is still among the top international O&D markets out of PIT, so maybe it could have a chance.

However, I think AA might consider daily 757 service. There's talk of that possibility even more so. While I'd love to see BA AND widebody service return to the Steel CIty, I don't think it's going to happen.

I could be wrong, and I would LOVE it if I AM about this!!!



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineely747 From Slovakia, joined Jan 2013, 140 posts, RR: 0
Reply 98, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 20278 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 93):

Already been discussed.

UK To HNL, Is There A Market? (by readytotaxi Jan 12 2013 in Civil Aviation)

And here

Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner (by 1400mph Jun 22 2013 in Civil Aviation)

It's pretty much leisure orientated traffic. In that case Thomson would be a better fit for HNL.


User currently offlineMSYPI7185 From United States of America, joined Oct 2007, 705 posts, RR: 0
Reply 99, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 20003 times:

I would love to see BA return to MSY. If they did I would imagine to LGW for various reasons. The cruiseship industry expanding here would also be another draw that did not exist the last time.

MD


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24075 posts, RR: 22
Reply 100, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 20023 times:

Quoting ely747 (Reply 98):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 93):

Already been discussed.

UK To HNL, Is There A Market? (by readytotaxi Jan 12 2013 in Civil Aviation)

And here

Thomson Airways May Fly To Hawaii With Dreamliner (by 1400mph Jun 22 2013 in Civil Aviation)

It's pretty much leisure orientated traffic. In that case Thomson would be a better fit for HNL.

BA serves quite a few other longhaul markets that are mainly leisure, MRU, BKK and LAS to name 3. I would think Hawaii would attract much the same type of premium-oriented leisure traffic as Mauritius. HNL is only about 1,000 nm further than MRU and BKK.


User currently onlineknope2001 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2818 posts, RR: 30
Reply 101, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 19667 times:

Quoting Lexy (Reply 88):
How can you justify MCI service to LHR? But not IND, BNA, or BDL?

Indianapolis: 2 hours from CVG Paris nonstops and 3 hours from O'Hare mass of nonstop destinations

Hartford/Springifled: 2 hours to JFK, 90 minutes to BOS

Kansas City: 6 hours to MSP, 7.5 hours to ORD and DFW

It's not only about losing some of your metro area to better alternatives elsewhere, it's also about losing your peripery. South Bend could reasonably travel to Indy to catch a BA flight to London, but O'Hare is closed and offers far more.

Not only does Kansas City not lose any of its own market to spill, but because international flights are so sparse in that part of the country it would pull from places like Omaha, Des Moines, Wichita and Lincoln because there aren't any closer international flights in other directions. Of coure IND and BDL also have peripheral cities that can feed their nonstop TATL flights, but there's a good amount of what would be the normal catch basin around IND and BDL that other airports capture. Omaha, Lincoln, Des Moines, Wichita and Sprinfield have an additional 3.2 million people within 3 hours of KCI who have no better option for a nonstop to Europe.

Two key reasons I didn't pick Nashville. First KC is nearly 30% larger, which works against them. Second, AA did not keep London when it downsized in BNA the way it did at RDU...the market, or traffic, or corporate subsidies were not there. I don't see Nashville's tourist appeal to be significant to Europeans in the way Vegas, Florida or New Orleans are.

When it comes down to it, though, of course my speculation is nothing more than speculative. It will end up being something I don't know like a couple of big UK companies having big operations outside of Middlestown, USA and an LHR route to someplace unexpected like Greenville.


User currently offlineSCQ83 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 668 posts, RR: 0
Reply 102, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 19699 times:

My bets:

- BDL: Connecticut is one of the more economically stable, international and wealthiest areas in the US (I know that the wealthiest part of Connecticut has JFK or LGA as reference, not BDL). Yet still it would make the only non-stop to Europe; probably BA is the only one that can have the luxury to add a new destination instead of another frequency to BOS/EWR/JFK.
- MSY (long-shot): Premium holiday destination that will fit with London market/BA. Only non-stop to Europe.
- PDX: International city, stable "traditional" economy, getting more known in Europe as a destination.
- SJC: Silicon Valley, "new economy" in the same line of LHR-AUS. First non-stop to Europe.
- SLC: Growing hub (financial and tech) and premium holiday destination from Europe (skiing).

And CLT and HNL as wildcards. For me SJC and SLC are the two most obvious destinations.


User currently offlineely747 From Slovakia, joined Jan 2013, 140 posts, RR: 0
Reply 103, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 19636 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 100):

Fair points. In regards to BKK there is some history of connecting traffic though. I don't want to sound disrespectful but I don't think Hawaii has got something special to offer that cannot be found closer to Europe. You've got to agree that Mauritius is so called "the one and only" island everyone wants to visit. However if BA was to launch HNL that would make it a unique selling point since no other airline in Europe does that. So market is definitely there.

[Edited 2013-11-07 14:52:53]

User currently offlinepsa1011 From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 268 posts, RR: 0
Reply 104, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 19529 times:
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Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 102):
- SJC: Silicon Valley, "new economy" in the same line of LHR-AUS. First non-stop to Europe.

I'm curious as to why AA flew SJC-CDG back in 2000 or so, and not SJC-LHR/LGW.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24075 posts, RR: 22
Reply 105, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 19421 times:

Quoting psa1011 (Reply 104):
I'm curious as to why AA flew SJC-CDG back in 2000 or so, and not SJC-LHR/LGW.

The old US-UK bilateral prior to the US-EU Open Skies agreement in 2008 wouldn't have permitted SJC-LHR, and I've forgotten the details but I think US-LGW service was restricted to a certain list of US cities that probably didn't include SJC.


User currently offlinelegacyins From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2022 posts, RR: 0
Reply 106, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 19170 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 105):

What I remember at that time, SJC was deemed a Co -Terminal with SFO and was not allowed to add LHR as the current treaty did not allow it.



John@SFO
User currently offlineadamh8297 From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 681 posts, RR: 0
Reply 107, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 19158 times:

Quoting knope2001 (Reply 101):
Indianapolis: 2 hours from CVG Paris nonstops and 3 hours from O'Hare mass of nonstop destinations

That's like saying BOS is close to JFK so TK never should have started BOS-IST.


User currently offlineMSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6412 posts, RR: 51
Reply 108, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 18994 times:

These numbers are from 2011.

FWIW, as of 3Q2013, STL is the largest market without a nonstop to Europe. MSY is second.

For the record the AUS figure includes SAT.


U.S - Western Europe PDEW.

Market Area......LON PDEW....W. EURO PDEW...NS Europe
1. New York...........3,358............15,524...............Yes
2. Los Angeles.........984...............3,926...............Yes
3. Miami.................652...............3,559................Yes
4. Boston................705...............3,281................Yes
5. San Francisco......749...............3,241................Yes
6. Orlando...............945..............2,681.................Yes
7. Chicago...............517..............2,630.................Yes
8. Washington.........644...............2,620................Yes
9. Las Vegas...........620...............1,666.................Yes
10. Atlanta..............254...............1,125.................Yes
11. Houston.............312...............1,099................Yes
12. Philadelphia.......209............... 1,053................Yes
13. Seattle..............173.................862..................Yes
14. Denver..............173.................772..................Yes
15. Dallas................182................747...................Yes
16. Detroit...............131................737...................Yes
17. Minneapolis........130................615...................Yes
18. Tampa...............194................570...................Yes
19. San Diego...........99.................525...................Yes
20. Phoenix..............103................478...................Yes
21. Charlotte.............83................398....................Yes
22. Raleigh...............95.................374....................Yes
23. Austin.................82.................355...................Yes
24. Portland..............49.................287...................Yes
25. Cincinnati............47.................286...................Yes
26. Pittsburgh...........40..................264...................Yes
27. Fort Myers..........20..................245...................Yes
28. New Orleans.......44..................236....................No
29. Salt Lake City......45..................234...................Yes
30. St. Louis.............39..................230....................No
Baltimore............76..................230...................Yes
31. Cleveland............36..................228....................No
32. Indianapolis.........42..................208...................No
33. Honolulu.............40...................181...................No
34. Kansas City.........36...................177...................No
35. Buffalo................31...................166...................No
36. Nashville.............38...................165...................No
37. Columbus...........34....................157...................No
38. Norfolk...............19....................134...................No
39. Jacksonville.........23....................124..................No
40. Memphis.............22...................123...................No
41. Milwaukee..........15....................92....................No
42. Albuquerque.......18....................89....................No
43. Sacramento........15.....................85...................No
44. Richmond............13....................79...................No
45. Louisville..............14...................76...................No
46. Omaha................14....................74...................No
47. Tucson................13....................73...................No
48. El Paso.................7.....................70...................No
Charleston,SC......14....................70...................No
49. Oklahoma City......16...................69...................No
50. Grand Rapids........13...................66...................No



Next trip: MSY-SEA-GEG-SEA-LWS-BOI-PDX-SEA-LAS on AS
User currently offlinekoruman From Australia, joined Feb 2006, 3528 posts, RR: 5
Reply 109, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 18692 times:

Quoting ely747 (Reply 103):
Fair points. In regards to BKK there is some history of connecting traffic though. I don't want to sound disrespectful but I don't think Hawaii has got something special to offer that cannot be found closer to Europe. You've got to agree that Mauritius is so called "the one and only" island everyone wants to visit.

I don't agree at all.

Firstly, Hawaii is many, many times more physically beautiful than Mauritius. Mauritius is basically an average tropical island which has several superb resorts and has a capital city that is like a miniature Calcutta. But a thirty minute drive from Waikiki you have the turquoise waters of Kailua and Lanikai and Waimanolo which are like La Digue or Praslin or Bora Bora. And then you can add in the live volcanoes on Hawaii, the Waimea Canyon on Kauai and the drive-in crater of Haleakala on Maui. There is much, much more to see than in Mauritius or the Maldives or the Caribbean. There's even a Royal Palace and Mauseleum.

Secondly, Hawaii isn't just a series of islands, it has far more options than Mauritius / Maldives / Barbados / Phuket / Bali in terms of shopping and restaurants. British visitors of every demographic tend to do a lot of shopping in NYC / Orlando / Miami etc, and pretty much all of those shops exist in Hawaii, from Louis Vuitton to Macy's.

The market has remained small because there are no direct air links without being subjected to US domestic service "standards".

I think Honolulu will eventually work from London, but as a full-service 789 on Virgin Atlantic, not a 788 on British Airways.

Quoting ely747 (Reply 98):
It's pretty much leisure orientated traffic. In that case Thomson would be a better fit for HNL.

I beg to differ.

Thomson is for leisure markets like the Dominican Republic or Cancun, which from the UK attract a much lower (financially, not in merit!) demographic than Hawaii does.

I'm an avowed football fan, but a route from London to Hawaii would be from Heathrow and in the unlikely event that any sports scores were going to be announced by the captain it would be rugby (union) scores. Thomson flights would have no need for that, it would be the football scores that people wanted to know!

(At this point I must apologise to all three of the residents of Indianapolis who possess a passport and to all 30 million British people who take overseas packahe holidays with charter airlines. I don't mean to cause genuine offence, I'm just painting a lurid cartoon to illustrate points about viability).

[Edited 2013-11-07 16:23:50]

User currently offlineSelseyBill From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2013, 118 posts, RR: 0
Reply 110, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 18639 times:

Quoting texdravid (Reply 69):
SAT is way too close to AUS.

SAT is indeed close to AUS, but by the same measure you could say that BWI is close IAD or SJC is close to SFO.

SAT is a huge market in its own right, with 1.3M citizens and #7 city in the USA by population. I would tend to think that SAT could justify a new daily 787 'growth' service to LHR in the future, without having to put a significant dent in any business at IAH or DFW.

Some of these Texan cities like AUS, SAT and ELP have grown hugely in the last decade with populations over 1M, and improved international services will develop naturally independently from IAH and DFW as their mass continues to grow.


User currently offlineIcelandairMSP From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 118 posts, RR: 0
Reply 111, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 18130 times:

If you would like another imperfect yardstick of Metropolitan Statistical Areas, try Metro areas ranked by median household income and per capita

Here's the order of unserved BA destinations (that could conceivably merit a flight) by income (* means already has flight to EU):

Median Household Income
4 Anchorage, Alaska MSA 260,283 $56,787
*5 Minneapolis–St. Paul, Minnesota–Wisconsin CMSA 3,615,902 $54,304
7 Hartford, Connecticut MSA 1,183,110 $52,188
*17 Detroit–Ann Arbor–Flint, Michigan CMSA 5,456,428 $49,160
(18 Austin–San Marcos, Texas MSA 1,249,763 $48,950 for reference)
*21 Salt Lake City–Ogden, Utah MSA 1,333,914 $48,594
36 Kansas City, Missouri–Kansas MSA 1,776,062 $46,193
37 Milwaukee–Racine, Wisconsin CMSA 1,689,572 $46,132
*38 Charlotte–Gastonia–Rock Hill, North Carolina–South Carolina MSA 1,499,293 $46,119
40 Sacramento–Yolo, California CMSA 1,796,857 $46,106
*41 Portland–Salem, Oregon–Washington CMSA 2,265,223 $46,090
47 Indianapolis, Indiana MSA 1,607,486 $45,548
*55 Cincinnati–Hamilton, Ohio–Kentucky–Indiana CMSA 1,979,202 $44,914
57 Columbus, Ohio MSA 1,540,157 $44,782
65 St. Louis, Missouri–Illinois MSA 2,603,607 $44,437
67 Nashville, Tennessee MSA 1,231,311 $44,223
85 Cleveland–Akron, Ohio CMSA 2,945,831 $42,215
*153 Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania MSA 2,358,695 $37,467

Per Capita Income
*7 Minneapolis–St. Paul, Minnesota–Wisconsin MSA 2,968,806 $26,219
9 Hartford, Connecticut MSA 1,183,110 $25,874
12 Anchorage, Alaska MSA 260,283 $25,287
(21 Austin–San Marcos, Texas MSA 1,249,763 $24,516 for reference)
*23 Detroit–Ann Arbor–Flint, Michigan CMSA 5,456,428 $24,275
*31 Charlotte–Gastonia–Rock Hill, North Carolina–South Carolina MSA 1,499,293 $23,417
32 Kansas City, Missouri–Kansas MSA 1,776,062 $23,326
34 Indianapolis, Indiana MSA 1,607,486 $23,198
38 Columbus, Ohio MSA 1,540,157 $23,020
39 Milwaukee–Racine, Wisconsin CMSA 1,689,572 $23,003
*41 Cincinnati–Hamilton, Ohio–Kentucky–Indiana CMSA 1,979,202 $22,947
43 Nashville, Tennessee MSA 1,231,311 $22,874
45 St. Louis, Missouri–Illinois MSA 2,603,607 $22,698
*46 Portland–Salem, Oregon–Washington CMSA 2,265,223 $22,592
47 Cleveland–Akron, Ohio CMSA 2,945,831 $22,319
49 Sacramento–Yolo, California CMSA 1,796,857 22,302
*90 Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania MSA 2,358,695 $20,935
*135 Salt Lake City–Ogden, Utah MSA 1,333,914 $19,781

Per that information, my take:
- CLT is a given, I suppose
- MSP is a wealthy, robust economy with a big enough population
- DTW is wealthy, not as robust, but a bigger population
- BDL has the money and draws from the New Haven area as well which is considered part of the NY CSA
- ANC for oil and tourism
- Otherwise STL gets the edge over CLE for the two largest markets without an EU flight, and choose either MKE, IND, or MCI. They're all stable, have much bigger catchments than their MSAs, all would offer nice incentives for an LHR flight, and could probably support it if the economics of the 788 are that much better

[Edited 2013-11-07 17:06:07]

User currently offlinePITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 3034 posts, RR: 4
Reply 112, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 17911 times:

And metro area's ranked by gross domestic product:

Top 30 metros without BA service:

MSP
DTW
*SJC
PDX
CLT
*STL
*PIT
*IND
*MCI
*CLE
CVG

(* indicates lack of year round service to EU)



Current-Dollar GDP by Metropolitan Area (Millions of dollars)
Rank Metropolitan area 2012 2010 2009 2008 2007
1 New York–Northern New Jersey–Long Island, NY–NJ–PA MSA 1,358,416 1,280,517 1,214,209 1,242,822 1,215,151
2 Los Angeles–Long Beach–Santa Ana, CA MSA 765,759 735,743 717,176 745,732 731,337
3 Chicago–Joliet–Naperville, ILINWI MSA 571,008 532,331 516,820 525,865 521,998
4 Houston–Sugar Land–Baytown, TX MSA 449,439 384,603 364,218 394,827 373,174
5 Washington–Arlington–Alexandria, DC–VA–MDWV MSA 448,741 425,167 408,144 401,160 384,014
6 Dallas–Fort Worth–Arlington, TX MSA 420,340 374,081 358,765 372,645 358,042
7 Philadelphia–Camden–Wilmington, PA–NJDEMD MSA 364,009 346,932 335,638 333,047 325,868
8 San Francisco–Oakland–Fremont, CA MSA 360,395 325,927 318,692 336,101 321,414
9 Boston–Cambridge–Quincy, MANH MSA 336,232 313,690 297,207 300,682 290,976
10 Atlanta–Sandy Springs–Marietta, GA MSA 294,589 272,362 266,479 274,878 272,079
11 Miami–Fort Lauderdale–Pompano Beach, FL MSA 274,105 257,560 253,266 260,883 263,802
12 Seattle–Tacoma–Bellevue, WA MSA 258,819 231,221 225,434 227,758 220,701
13 Minneapolis–St. Paul–Bloomington, MNWI MSA 220,167 199,596 191,191 193,814 189,584
14 Detroit–Warren–Livonia, MI MSA 208,379 197,773 190,840 197,185 204,683
15 Phoenix–Mesa–Glendale, AZ MSA 201,653 190,601 188,154 196,311 196,594
16 San Diego–Carlsbad–San Marcos, CA MSA 177,410 171,568 168,976 171,174 166,387
17 San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara, CA MSA 173,908 168,517 148,697 151,287 148,893
18 Denver–Aurora–Broomfield, CO MSA 167,886 157,567 153,327 154,936 147,331
19 Baltimore–Towson, MD MSA 157,260 144,789 139,118 137,237 134,090
20 Portland–Vancouver–Hillsboro, ORWA MSA 146,975 124,683 118,775 123,693 116,694
21 Charlotte-Gastonia-Rock Hill, NC-SC MSA 137,189 113,568 109,882 111,213 109,222
22 St. Louis, MO-IL MSA 136,677 129,734 126,287 129,137 124,126
23 Pittsburgh, PA MSA 123,577 115,752 109,814 111,175 108,003
24 Tampa-St. Petersburg-Clearwater, FL MSA 119,926 113,702 111,856 112,333 114,112
25 Indianapolis-Carmel, IN MSA 116,094 105,163 100,456 99,053 97,699
26 Riverside–San Bernardino–Ontario, CA MSA 113,998 109,818 109,513 113,545 114,835
27 Kansas City, MO-KS MSA 113,090 105,968 103,529 104,254 101,175
28 Cleveland-Elyria-Mentor, OH MSA 111,597 105,625 102,200 104,665 103,611
29 Cincinnati-Middletown, OH-KY-IN MSA 108,236 100,594 97,432 98,688 97,385
30 Orlando–Kissimmee–Sanford, FL MSA 106,123 104,107 101,400 103,938 104,276
31 Columbus, OH MSA 100,512 93,353 90,323 89,780 89,067
32 Austin-Round Rock-San Marcos, TX MSA 98,677 86,029 79,905 80,491 76,732
33 Sacramento–Arden–Arcade–Roseville, CA MSA 97,558 92,873 93,048 95,007 95,485
34 Las Vegas-Paradise, NV MSA 95,602 89,799 91,229 91,229 99,029
35 Nashville-Davidson–Murfreesboro–Franklin, TN MSA 94,789 80,898 76,712 77,844 75,913
36 San Antonio–New Braunfels, TX MSA 91,995 82,036 78,143 78,297 76,172
37 Milwaukee-Waukesha-West Allis, WI MSA 88,708 84,574 82,728 82,909 81,390
38 Bridgeport-Stamford-Norwalk, CT MSA 86,338 84,882 81,340 83,176 82,144
39 Virginia Beach-Norfolk-Newport News, VA-NC MSA 84,836 80,518 79,396 78,644 76,564
40 New Orleans-Metairie-Kenner, LA MSA 84,835 71,476 66,780 70,067 67,527
41 Hartford-West Hartford-East Hartford, CT MSA 80,670 87,963 83,562 79,494 78,813
42 Salt Lake City, UT MSA 72,072 66,456 64,556 64,728 62,463
43 Providence-New Bedford-Fall River, RI-MA MSA 69,530 66,334 64,217 64,578 63,898
44 Richmond, VA MSA 68,612 64,321 62,676 62,223 60,348
45 Memphis, TN-MS-AR MSA 66,778 65,025 63,266 64,343 63,443
46 Oklahoma City, OK MSA 63,338 58,339 55,838 59,622 54,434
47 Louisville/Jefferson County, KY-IN MSA 62,782 58,572 56,047 56,270 55,490
48 Jacksonville, FL MSA 62,251 60,303 58,595 59,146 60,168
49 Raleigh-Cary, NC MSA 61,392 57,278 54,147 53,403 51,826
50 Birmingham-Hoover, AL MSA 58,992 53,834 52,670 55,296 53,590



FLYi
User currently offlineLexy From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 2515 posts, RR: 9
Reply 113, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 17899 times:
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Quoting ATLgaUSA (Reply 84):
I'm not overly familiar with the Nashville business community. What companies make up Nashville's "important business ties to Europe"?

HCA, Caterpillar, Comdata/Ceridian, Nissan, Bridgestone, LP, Clarcor, Mars, Vanderbilt, Emedeon, Cummins Diesel, and TONS of healthcare corporations. This is just a starter list.



Nashville, Tennessee KBNA
User currently offlineAVLAirlineFreq From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 970 posts, RR: 0
Reply 114, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 17751 times:

Quoting knope2001 (Reply 101):
Two key reasons I didn't pick Nashville. First KC is nearly 30% larger, which works against them. Second, AA did not keep London when it downsized in BNA the way it did at RDU...the market, or traffic, or corporate subsidies were not there. I don't see Nashville's tourist appeal to be significant to Europeans in the way Vegas, Florida or New Orleans are.

I think the KC MSA is only about 15% larger than Nashville's (2.039 million vs. 1.727 million). AA's closure of the BNA hub was so long ago (in both real time and airline time) that it's hard to draw much of a conclusion from that. And having lived in New Orleans, I don't know that it's that much of a draw to European tourists, relatively speaking. That being said, I could see BA giving MCI and (maybe) MSY a try,


User currently offlinekoruman From Australia, joined Feb 2006, 3528 posts, RR: 5
Reply 115, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 17608 times:

Quoting IcelandairMSP (Reply 111):
If you would like another imperfect yardstick of Metropolitan Statistical Areas, try Metro areas ranked by median household income and per capita

Here's the order of unserved BA destinations (that could conceivably merit a flight) by income (* means already has flight to EU):

How did you manage to omit Honolulu?

It would have been second on the list behind Anchorage.

Most of the responses on this page seem to ignore factors like

1) sector length - can a daily rotation by flown by 1 aircraft?

2) inbound demand - does anyone in England:
a) need to visit this town for business?
b) want to visit this town for leisure?

3) outbound demand - what proportion of the population has ever travelled outside the USA, Canada, Mexico and the Caribbean?


These are key questions, because we all know that Americans get less than half as much vacation time as British people and hence are statistically far less likely to take a long-haul vacation.


User currently offlineNatflyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2013, 85 posts, RR: 1
Reply 116, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 17461 times:

A lot of the airports mentioned here could have been flown to Europe with a 763 or a 752. But no one has bothered. What makes people think it will work with a still bigger a/c (788) even if its seat cost is lower. The trip cost is still significant, especially with cheap 763s and 757s in abundance.

User currently onlineknope2001 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2818 posts, RR: 30
Reply 117, posted (5 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 17338 times:

Quoting AVLAirlineFreq (Reply 114):
I think the KC MSA is only about 15% larger than Nashville's (2.039 million vs. 1.727 million). AA's closure of the BNA hub was so long ago (in both real time and airline time) that it's hard to draw much of a conclusion from that.

The numbers I used were consolidated metro area estimates released February 2013. The consolidated metro areas include adjacent metro and micropolitan areas and are generally considered a more accurate representation of the whole. From those numbers:

Kansas City CSA 2,376,631
Nashville CSA 1,845,235
difference of 531,396 or MCI about 29% larger than BNA

I do agree that a good chunk of time has passed since American ended BNA-LGW in the fall of 1995. Metro Nashville has of course grown quite a bit since then, both in population and employment. But I don't think there have been any game-changing new international companies which have mushroomed in Nashville in that period to substantially boost demand beyond what it was in 1995. More population helps, of course, but the nature of the Nashville business community didn't sustain London then, and if it had morphed enough it would have been easy for American to restore it.

That doesn't mean BA can't or won't fly to BNA, but it's my reply when someone else asked why I didn't include BNA on my prediction list but did include MCI.

Quoting adamh8297 (Reply 107):
Quoting knope2001 (Reply 101):Indianapolis: 2 hours from CVG Paris nonstops and 3 hours from O'Hare mass of nonstop destinations
That's like saying BOS is close to JFK so TK never should have started BOS-IST.

Actually the same concept does apply but the details differ. BOS to JFK is a significantly worse and congested drive than IND to ORD, but Boston would have more TATL service if JFK and EWR were 100 miles farther south. Logan's hinterland for long-haul international traffic is definitely stunted by JFK and EWR. But the scope is different. IND-LHR would not just be competing with O'Hare for London traffic. IND-LHR needs to be fortified by connecting traffic to Paris, to Amsterdam, to Milan, to Frankfurt, etc. and those are all destinations which can be readily reached nonstop from O'Hare. If you want to go back to the Turkish BOS-IST example (and ignore that BOS-JFK is lot worse drive than IND-ORD) note that IST is a gateway to many key destinations in Africa, the Middle East, Pakistan and Indian that JFK doesn't have nonstop service to either.

Again, I'm only giving reasons why my guess of 5 new BA cities does not include Indianapolis, and BA may view things differently. But I don't think you can dismiss proximity to ORD as a factor in Indy's bid. It's not as crippling as it is for MKE, but it is a definite factor.


User currently offlinePITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 3034 posts, RR: 4
Reply 118, posted (5 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 17287 times:

Quoting Natflyer (Reply 116):
A lot of the airports mentioned here could have been flown to Europe with a 763 or a 752. But no one has bothered.

Except, that airlines HAVE bothered in the past. Of the 30 largest metro areas, the only ones to never have any service to Europe are SAT and SMF. Not only have others currently lacking service, such as STL and CLE, have had nonstop service in the past, but in some cases they have had long running service to multiple destinations (i.e STL).

Point being, the reason some of these cities no longer have service is because of continual changes in airline alliances/fleets/hubs/structure/bankruptcies/consolidation/etc... and is not necessarily a reflection on a market's viability by itself.

As the industry continues to evolve, perhaps some of issues listed above have changed to the point where some of these routes can be feasible again? Fleets for example - how many trans-Atlantic routes are now flown by the 757? Because of the 787 DEN/BOS/SAN/SJC-NRT and AUS-LHR are all now available.

Just because a route is currently not flown does not mean there is a not a market for it. With that logic, there would never be a any new routes.



FLYi
User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4522 posts, RR: 18
Reply 119, posted (5 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 17216 times:

Quoting knope2001 (Reply 101):
Indianapolis: 2 hours from CVG Paris nonstops and 3 hours from O'Hare mass of nonstop destinations

But remember those airports are already there and IND still has over 200 people a day going to western Europe. So what will happen when IND gets nonstop service? Perhaps then IND pulls people from CVG who don't want to have to fly through CDG to get somewhere in Europe. What about the people in northwest Indiana and parts of northeast Illinois who are sick of dealing with the ORD international arrivals disaster? Fly in to IND and you are the only flight going through customs. It would be a very easy process. Get your bag and drive home. It is a pretty easy shot part of the way around I-465 and then up I-65. Same goes for the people from Cincinnati. I-465 around to I-74 and then straight home. IND demand would only increase with the addition of new service.



Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlinekoruman From Australia, joined Feb 2006, 3528 posts, RR: 5
Reply 120, posted (5 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 16785 times:

Quoting Indy (Reply 119):
But remember those airports are already there and IND still has over 200 people a day going to western Europe.

I'm sorry, but I don't think that that is anything like enough volume even in a world of 220 seat 787-8s.

I live in Australia in a city you probably have never heard of (the Gold Coast) which has less than 1/3 of the metropolitan population of Indianapolis. But even with that much smaller population it averages 200 people per day travelling to the UK and a further 250 to the rest of Europe.

London Heathrow is not a nice airport to connect at anymore and it has a huge departure tax nowadays. If there are 200 passengers per day travelling from Indianapolis to Europe I would guess that fewer than 80 are actually headed for London and the southeast of England, which means that IND-LHR would be fatally compromised.


User currently offlineredzeppelin From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 498 posts, RR: 0
Reply 121, posted (5 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 16219 times:

Is there any reason to assume that the five new destinations would get daily service? Isn't it conceivable that that they could serve 5 new cities with 3 slot pairs, going with frequencies like 5x, 5x, 4x, 4x and 3x weekly? All of the PDEW counts can be interpreted differently if you don't assume daily service. There may be a strong strategic reason that we don't know about for serving some off-radar cities with reduced frequency. Just my   .


Happiness is rediscovering a forgotten L-1011 in your flight log.
User currently offlinedabpit From United States of America, joined May 2012, 100 posts, RR: 0
Reply 122, posted (5 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 16133 times:

BA still has lounge space at PIT

They also use to fly a 747 and 767 into PIT (not at the same time)


User currently offlinehohd From United States of America, joined May 2008, 377 posts, RR: 0
Reply 123, posted (5 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 15934 times:

CLT - if the merger goes through
STL - a good candidate since it is a large metro area, eventhough the economy is not so good, it has good feed from AA.
PDX - a fair choice, it does not matter if DL serves AMS, LHR has a higher O & D and better connections, in fact DL might have to curtail operations, if BA enters the market
PIT - again a fair choice, LHR has higher O & D and it does not matter if DL operates to CDG, plus AA/US have good presence here.
CLE - even though it is a Star mini hub, BA might succeed here, but not daily, may be 4 times a week.

Doubtful:

DTW - DL already has one LHR flight and this market is not big enough for more than one flight
SJC - too close to SFO, if someone is going as far as LHR, they would not mind driving another 30 to 45 mins to SFO airport
SLC - not big enough and probably not enough traffic, both in Y and J. I doubt many Europeans come all the way to Ski.
MSY - poor yields and probably not enough traffic, both in Y and J.
BDL - too many cities close by, New York and Boston have extensive LHR connections. However the area is prosperous, It may work as 4 times a week perhaps.
IND - might work (4 times a week), ,drawback is ORD fairly close by, which is a big AA hub.


User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4522 posts, RR: 18
Reply 124, posted (5 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 15857 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 120):
I'm sorry, but I don't think that that is anything like enough volume even in a world of 220 seat 787-8s.

I live in Australia in a city you probably have never heard of (the Gold Coast) which has less than 1/3 of the metropolitan population of Indianapolis. But even with that much smaller population it averages 200 people per day travelling to the UK and a further 250 to the rest of Europe.

That 200+ people is likely only from the city of Indianapolis and does not include outlaying areas and it does not include people who have driven from Indianapolis to Cincinnati or Chicago to begin their journey. I know this is how numbers are calculated because I received this information a few years back from the Department of Commerce. There were two sets of numbers. There were those from Indianapolis and those from Indiana. Then there where the number of Europeans that flew to Indianapolis and Indiana. The actual number of people beginning a journey to Europe out of IND may be much different than the 200(ish) mentioned earlier. The only way to know for sure is to contact the Commerce Department again and attempt to get the latest figures.

With a flight like that you can stop losing traffic to ORD and CVG and perhaps even start taking a few of their travelers.



Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineAna787 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 189 posts, RR: 0
Reply 125, posted (5 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 15734 times:

PDX is a no brainer. Bus loads of people usually make their way up to SEA just to take the nonstop to LHR. This is a huge gap in PDX's network.

User currently offlinewarden145 From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 496 posts, RR: 0
Reply 126, posted (5 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 15577 times:

Quoting hohd (Reply 123):
SJC - too close to SFO, if someone is going as far as LHR, they would not mind driving another 30 to 45 mins to SFO airport

Part of me tends to agree with you, and I admit that I'd rather not see BA go to SJC simply because I don't want to see SFO downgauged. However, by that logic, NH's SJC-NRT service shouldn't be succeeding, whereas AFAIK it's doing pretty well...



ETOPS = Engine Turns Off, Passengers Swim
User currently offlineLexy From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 2515 posts, RR: 9
Reply 127, posted (5 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 15609 times:
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Quoting AVLAirlineFreq (Reply 114):
I think the KC MSA is only about 15% larger than Nashville's (2.039 million vs. 1.727 million). AA's closure of the BNA hub was so long ago (in both real time and airline time) that it's hard to draw much of a conclusion from that. And having lived in New Orleans, I don't know that it's that much of a draw to European tourists, relatively speaking. That being said, I could see BA giving MCI and (maybe) MSY a try,

Good points. The only, ONLY, reason they LHR-RDU flight is still there is because of Glaxo-Smith Kelin Pharmaceuticals. Had someone in Nashville stepped up to subsidize the flight, it would still be there. And to be fair, that flight was BNA-LGW if memory serves correct. Big difference between Gatwick and Heathrow.

AA dropping the hub from here means nothing in 2013. The airport has surpassed the total pax numbers from the hub days anyways. It's a non-issue at present. The airport is projected to DOUBLE it's numbers in the next 20 years, so there's plenty of good to grab in this market as opposed to many places listed.



Nashville, Tennessee KBNA
User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6729 posts, RR: 18
Reply 128, posted (5 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 15492 times:

Quoting Lexy (Reply 127):
Good points. The only, ONLY, reason they LHR-RDU flight is still there is because of Glaxo-Smith Kelin Pharmaceuticals. Had someone in Nashville stepped up to subsidize the flight, it would still be there. And to be fair, that flight was BNA-LGW if memory serves correct. Big difference between Gatwick and Heathrow.

Can I see you numbers on this? I want to see where you can show me that AA is still receiving a subsidy on the route. I want to know why this route doesn't merit it on it's own. I keep hearing about the "subsidy" that was started almost 20.. 20.. TWENTY years ago.. yet everyone still has it that this flight runs on a subsidy. Yet, every other destination up here can be make it work without one.

I just want to put it out there that from my understanding, the subsidy for this flight has not been paid out in YEARS! It's a mixture of J Class and cargo that makes this flight profitable even during the slow months. And as an employee of one of the seat buyers, yes.. some of the seats are bought out but that's because they are actually used. AND!!! It's not.. and let me repeat.. NOT the individual companies.. it is a partnership called RTRP.. Research Triangle Regional Park.. AGAIN!! NOT an individual company that is on the flight but a conglomerate..

So let's get off of the RDU hazing again and play the name game..

Oh, and just as an FYI.. RTRP has stated they used the subsidies to get the flights started but they have NOT used the subsidies in years and have reallocated it to getting CDG and FRA service.. which there are subsidies on the table for as we speak but haven't been utilized due to the threAAt they received if any other airline got a subsidy and AAnother airline wasn't getting one...



Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlinesteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9112 posts, RR: 18
Reply 129, posted (5 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 15428 times:

Quoting dabpit (Reply 122):
BA still has lounge space at PIT

They also use to fly a 747 and 767 into PIT (not at the same time)

Back in 1992, they leased space at the then-new terminal. That of course expired last year if I'm not mistaken...

I do remember the days when a daily 742 was the norm...



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineLexy From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 2515 posts, RR: 9
Reply 130, posted (5 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 15402 times:
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Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 128):

Can I see you numbers on this? I want to see where you can show me that AA is still receiving a subsidy on the route. I want to know why this route doesn't merit it on it's own. I keep hearing about the "subsidy" that was started almost 20.. 20.. TWENTY years ago.. yet everyone still has it that this flight runs on a subsidy. Yet, every other destination up here can be make it work without one.

Calm down! LOL! Seriously though, it MAY NOT be in effect anymore? I think finding proof one way or the other would require diving into documents not readily available to the public outside of what's been said in the past.

With that said, what makes Raleigh-Durham so special from say...Indianapolis, New Orleans, Nashville, St. Louis, or Kansas City? Outside of the obvious investments by pharmaceutical companies, what is it known for? Both business and leisure? I have friends there, so I could easily ask them, but I want your opinion. I know it's not a HUGE tourist draw and outside of the NHL, it's relatively unknown in the college and professional sports circles. There isn't a National Park nearby drawing thousands in. From a corporate look, BB&T is big I suppose along with drugs...what else? For what it's worth, I don't flip on the TV and see shows centered around Raleigh. So there has to be something outside of suburban sprawl and the "American Dream". What makes you think that any of the cities I mentioned above couldn't be stimulated enough to support a trans-Atlantic flight to a major gateway airport? What makes you believe Raleigh is supporting this flight on it's own? Let's pull it out and see the numbers for this flight. Let's cut the crap and get right down to the facts about it.

I think for a city the size of Raleigh, and given the facts I've stated above about the overall perception of the place, you're pretty dang lucky to have what you have.

As for CDG, keep waiting. If you haven't gotten it by now, I doubt you will. Raleigh-Durham isn't an international gateway brother. People in Europe aren't flocking in droves to get there from multiple gateways. You guys are as bad as some of the STL forumers on here about LHR service when it comes to the two flights you think "Delta" owes you all.

[Edited 2013-11-08 11:47:47]


Nashville, Tennessee KBNA
User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 2882 posts, RR: 7
Reply 131, posted (5 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 15322 times:

Quoting hohd (Reply 123):
SJC - too close to SFO, if someone is going as far as LHR, they would not mind driving another 30 to 45 mins to SFO airport

Yeah they would. My folks live 6 miles south of SJC. Would you rather drive, or have someone drop you off at an airport 10 minutes away, or one that may be an hour away during peak traffic?

In fact, from many places in San Jose you will drive right by SJC on your way to SFO. Would you be wishing

Likewise, my sister lives 5 minutes from SNA, but it could be an over an hour to LAX each way. (Not suggesting SNA can do an overseas flight, but just stating how preferable it is to have your flight at a nearby airport).


User currently offlineFlyCaledonian From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2048 posts, RR: 3
Reply 132, posted (5 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 15331 times:

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 58):
PDX - could see this. BA is naturally going to be more sussesful than LH due to BA serving the UK from the US and a 787 is a right fit. This might coincide with a reduction of service into SEA or a non-daily operation. BA could develop a better relationship with AS for feed.

Portland gets mentioned a lot, and it seems a good contender. If some traffic currently flies through SEA that BA could get on a direct flight, then SEA could drop back to a daily flight. Also means BA wouldn't need 7 slot pairs to launch a daily service, as some would be available already.

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 58):
SJC - a real contender. This would be brought into daily service (perhaps even with a 777 or 787-9) however, I would say that this would have to come with a service reduction (more likely a downgrade) into SFO, yet if they could somehow capture an undiscovered market there they may be able to keep all services. Former AA hub as well.

San Jose could be a destination where BA can tap new demand, and divert some demand away from the twice daily SFO flights. Now that either gives BA the opportunity to expand capacity into the Bay area in general, or to downguage SFO to say the 77W. Now say LHR-SFO 2x 77W and LHR-SJC 1x 788 (or 789) might not be much of an uplift in seats, but yield wise it could pay dividends for BA.

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 58):
SLC - definitely possible. No direct link to Europe and a high J-class demand and winter ski demand (perfect from LHR). BA again would have to try and invade into DL territory but with their product and reputation, they could easily make this work as a daily 787.

Denver launched from LGW, but switched to LHR which showed it can't just have been BA Holidfays traffic on that flight. Likewise, Las Vegas was launched from LHR, and the addition of a 3x weekly LGW flight suggested to me that BA wantedto divert some of the O&D leisure traffic away from LHR because there was maybe some good feed coming in. SLC could maybe generate the right mix of traffic for BA, and the 788 could be the right aircraft here.



Let's Go British Caledonian!
User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6729 posts, RR: 18
Reply 133, posted (5 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 15234 times:

Quoting Lexy (Reply 130):
With that said, what makes Raleigh-Durham so special from say...Indianapolis, New Orleans, Nashville, St. Louis, or Kansas City? Outside of the obvious investments by pharmaceutical companies, what is it known for? Both business and leisure? I have friends there, so I could easily ask them, but I want your opinion. I know it's not a HUGE tourist draw and outside of the NHL, it's relatively unknown in the college and professional sports circles. There isn't a National Park nearby drawing thousands in. From a corporate look, BB&T is big I suppose along with drugs...what else? For what it's worth, I don't flip on the TV and see shows centered around Raleigh. So there has to be something outside of suburban sprawl and the "American Dream". What makes you think that any of the cities I mentioned above couldn't be stimulated enough to support a trans-Atlantic flight to a major gateway airport? What makes you believe Raleigh is supporting this flight on it's own? Let's pull it out and see the numbers for this flight. Let's cut the crap and get right down to the facts about it.

I would say Raleigh-Durham is about as special as every other metrolpolitian. It has it's businesses atmosphere.. it's tourist destination.. and it's low cost of living. I think you will find the Triangle area is in top 5 locations for inporting.. Otherwise, what is the Triangle known for?

Pharmaceutical. Financial. Technology. Healthcare. Research. Agriculture. Government. Clinical.

What does RDU offer. It's pretty good in that RDU traffic is pretty much 50/50.. ~50% leisure, ~50% business. Which means, you have a lot of travelers going world wide as well as a lot of people going to visit friends and family.

As far as sports.. if you don't think Tobacco Road draws in crowds, then for that I am sorry. Yes, the area only has 1 major professional team in the Carolina Hurricanes, but it also has minor leagues that draws in some.. Durham Bulls, Carolina Railhawks.. But no, it's not a huge professional team local. But do NOT disregard the college scene around here.. That would be a very fatal flaw. In both sports AND education AND research, they are HUGE draws..

If you want me to list some bigs..I can.. Fidelity, Credit Suisse, SAS Insitute, John Deere, Duke University, UNC, GSK, Biogen Idec, Novartis, Merck, Red Hat, Highwoods Properties, Paraxel, IBM, Lenovo, Bayera, Syngenta, Monatora (or something like that), and a plethora of more..

As far as TV shows. big whoop! I don't think the fact that you are on a tv show makes a place a place. That's just silly in my opinion..

And lastly, I can't stress this enough. I didn't say none of those cities you mentioned can not support trans-Atlantic service. I just simply wondered why everyone also shoots down the Triangle as being "damn lucky" to have a 20 year old seasoned route that couldn't support itself without a lifeline.. that's what I"m saying..

Now please.. yes.. pull the numbers.. run them.. see if the flight is bleeding red, cutting the line, or making a profit.. that probably is the only way that the route will be allowed to not be the welfare case of the airline industry.



Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlineLexy From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 2515 posts, RR: 9
Reply 134, posted (5 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 15191 times:
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Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 133):
But do NOT disregard the college scene around here.. That would be a very fatal flaw. In both sports AND education AND research, they are HUGE draws..

Trust me, I come from Kentucky. We know how to pack out arena's for college basketball. That still isn't a huge draw for LEX or SDF respectively though. That's more local state traffic that drives.

Good post overall, but what is so different about RDU? I mean, let's be real about this.

You say having a show (Nashville) on regular syndication across the world isn't a big deal? Okay. I think both the Chamber of Commerce and Mayor's Office would HIGHLY disagree (not to mention the TN film board). But I digress.

I'd love to see some numbers. I'm sure the route does fine. I doubt it's 100% full all the time though.

Most would agree, RDU (considering it's size and proximity to CLT) is damn lucky to have what it has. You can't deny that.



Nashville, Tennessee KBNA
User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6729 posts, RR: 18
Reply 135, posted (5 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 15145 times:

This is my last post on this.. The universities of the Triangle draw more than just sports. They draw research, education, and policies. They are major players in the education regions. I don't know what happens in Kentucky or Nashville, but as for the Traingle schools, they draw..

I"m not saying RDU is any different than any other airport.. the only difference is that when we wanted something, we went out and paid for it in form of subsidies. Now, per the RTRP... those subsidies are not being utilized for the service.

I would also bet you.. more than money.. that if the Chamber of Commerce and Mayor's office could choose between have a TV show or having RTP.. every since Chamber of Commerce and every single Major's office would choose to have RTP than a TV show..

Lastly, I don't have numbers and unless someone that works for AA would post them, we won't have the numbers. I never said it was full.. I never said it was half full. I said it is profitable. I didn't say hugely profitably or barely eeking by. I said profitable.

Yes, it's great to have the LHR flight. Luck would be if they accidently put the plane on the route and it oversold everyday. I think a lot of research goes into the flight every time they are reviewing routes and the fact that the flight has lasted 20 years speak for it self. Yes CLT is nearby but the CLT metro is the CLT metro and the RTP metro is the RTP metro.

I think what you should be looking at is how significant it is that you have the CLT metro, the RDU metro, and the ATL metro all in that one area and each is doing well. ATL and CLT are using a lot of connecting traffic. RDU is not. RDU and CLT both have GSO in the middle which is handling it's own too. Other areas do not have such high levels of competition nearby.

And that's ALL I'm going to say cause this has become a flamebait with no data, no justification, and no real assessment other than to try to outdo for no reason.



Aiming High and going far..
User currently offline747megatop From United States of America, joined May 2007, 610 posts, RR: 0
Reply 136, posted (5 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 14820 times:
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Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 135):
Yes, it's great to have the LHR flight.

RDU is already connected to LHR. BA already codeshares with AA on the RDU-LHR flight. Are you talking about a 2nd service on BA metal or replacing the existing AA service with BA metal?


User currently offlineUSAirALB From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 2976 posts, RR: 2
Reply 137, posted (5 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 14761 times:

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 136):
RDU is already connected to LHR. BA already codeshares with AA on the RDU-LHR flight. Are you talking about a 2nd service on BA metal or replacing the existing AA service with BA metal?

That's what I want to know. I have just noticed that CLTLHR recently surpassed RDULHR in O/D levels.



E135/E140/E145/E70/E75/E90/CR2/CR7/717/732/733/734/735/73G/738/752/753/762/772/319/320/321/333
User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6729 posts, RR: 18
Reply 138, posted (5 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 14723 times:

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 136):
Are you talking about a 2nd service on BA metal or replacing the existing AA service with BA metal?

I'm not talking about either.. not sure where that came from..

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 137):
I have just noticed that CLTLHR recently surpassed RDULHR in O/D levels.

Interesting.. Good for Charlotte..



Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlineLambertman From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2064 posts, RR: 36
Reply 139, posted (5 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 14628 times:

My top five, in order:

-Minneapolis: Surprised it hasn't happened yet. Delta may dump a ton of capacity on the route but its not like British Airways is Frontier Airlines circa 2005. I think this route would be a real winner for BA.
-St. Louis: Discussions took place 2 or 3 years ago, not sure where things were couched. Given the sizable corporate presence and reasonably sized population base, I think this is an obvious choice for one of the five.
-New Orleans: For those that missed it, New Orleans was runner-up for a flight when Austin got one. Was posted in a St. Louis Post-Dispatch article. I think this is another fairly obvious one.
-Ft. Myers: Not sure what British attitudes toward the gulf side of Florida are like, but it sure is popular with Germans. Something like a 5x weekly seasonal flight may suffice.
-Cleveland: I suppose this is dependent on the status of UA's flight, but think it might be able to work. A distant fifth.

I don't understand the rationale for Pittsburgh and Portland. Two similarly sized markets with an existing flight that likely satisfies much of the demand. I would much rather have a whole piece of the pie in St. Louis, New Orleans, or even Cleveland over splitting it in those two markets.


User currently offlinekoruman From Australia, joined Feb 2006, 3528 posts, RR: 5
Reply 140, posted (5 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 14422 times:

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 133):
As far as sports.. if you don't think Tobacco Road draws in crowds, then for that I am sorry. Yes, the area only has 1 major professional team in the Carolina Hurricanes, but it also has minor leagues that draws in some.. Durham Bulls, Carolina Railhawks.. But no, it's not a huge professional team local. But do NOT disregard the college scene around here.. That would be a very fatal flaw. In both sports AND education AND research, they are HUGE draws..

Funnily enough, this poster has unwittingly done a terrific job in explaining why secondary American cities can only work to the UK if the big corporates buy enough premium seats.

I was brought up in England and I'm a sports nut, and I have very English tastes in sport. (Sport, not "sports".)

And I have never heard of any of those teams in my life.

Carolina Hurricanes, Railhawks, Durham Bulls, college teams? They all draw a complete blank. I couldn't even tell you what sport they play. And I've certainly never heard of Tobacco Road!

My point is that BA expansion to the USA is quite a complex matter. There are far stronger cultural links to places like Australia and New Zealand (which also have far higher passport ownership rates and long-haul travel habits). But of course there is no money in flying 24 hour flights.

That leaves the USA and Canada, but the cultural gulf is so large - and widening - that the leisure travel aspect is a very difficult issue beyond the old staples of Florida, NYC, San Francisco and LA.

There are huge numbers of British people who travel to watch sport, but less than 1% travel to watch it in the USA. This week alone, 10,000 Londoners went to Dortmund, 20,000 Scots went to Amsterdam and 5,000 people travelled from Manchester to San Sebastian.

But there were probably fewer than 100 British people who attended pro-sports matches in the USA, and 99% of them only went because they were already there.

This means that the things which keep the leisure cabins full and profitable elsewhere don't work between the UK and the USA outside the major routes. British people aren't going to schedule a vacation in Kansas City or Nashville or even Atlanta. And American people don't have the paid vacation time to do much international travel.

Hence the market remains mainly to the major US cities, and to US airline hubs from secondary British cities.


User currently offlineMesaFlyGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 2483 posts, RR: 4
Reply 141, posted (5 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 14397 times:
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Quoting Lambertman (Reply 139):
-Cleveland: I suppose this is dependent on the status of UA's flight, but think it might be able to work. A distant fifth

To which UA flight are you referring? Because UA doesn't fly CLE-LHR.



\________(---)________/ :) World's most beautiful aircraft: 757-200, MD-88/90, E-190, A321
User currently offlineAVLAirlineFreq From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 970 posts, RR: 0
Reply 142, posted (5 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 14336 times:

Quoting knope2001 (Reply 117):
I do agree that a good chunk of time has passed since American ended BNA-LGW in the fall of 1995. Metro Nashville has of course grown quite a bit since then, both in population and employment. But I don't think there have been any game-changing new international companies which have mushroomed in Nashville in that period to substantially boost demand beyond what it was in 1995. More population helps, of course, but the nature of the Nashville business community didn't sustain London then, and if it had morphed enough it would have been easy for American to restore it.

Nashville's business community has changed substantially since then, with the addition of several large corporate offices and headquarters (which have been detailed above) although perhaps not enough to generate sustained nonstop service specifically to LHR. So I'm not betting on it being one of the five, although I wouldn't use AA's failure to restore BNA-LON as supporting evidence (particularly coming from AA) that BA wouldn't try it.


User currently offlinermoore7734 From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 85 posts, RR: 0
Reply 143, posted (5 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 14277 times:

Quoting Lexy (Reply 130):
I don't flip on the TV and see shows centered around Raleigh

Sure you have a TV show (Lizard Lick on Tru TV)      

Says the show is located just outside Raliegh http://www.lizardlicktowing.com/about

Too bad the show is faked   


User currently offlineVCy From Cyprus, joined Dec 2012, 236 posts, RR: 0
Reply 144, posted (5 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 13892 times:
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I can see las vegas moving to gatwick to make some slots available

User currently offlineMah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32177 posts, RR: 72
Reply 145, posted (5 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 13911 times:

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 137):
That's what I want to know. I have just noticed that CLTLHR recently surpassed RDULHR in O/D levels.

No, it hasn't. Raleigh-London is the larger local market, and the largest between North Carolina and any city outside the U.S. and Canada.

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 136):
BA already codeshares with AA on the RDU-LHR flight.

It's more than a codeshare. They co-operate the flight on AA metal. For all intents and purposes, Raleigh is part of British Airways' London network.

Quoting Ana787 (Reply 125):
PDX is a no brainer. Bus loads of people usually make their way up to SEA just to take the nonstop to LHR. This is a huge gap in PDX's network.

The idea that "busloads" of people take is absolutely ridiculous. PDXLON is an ok sized local market on it's own. There isn't much leakage. PDX isn't some isolated, underserved airport.

[Edited 2013-11-09 00:37:16]


a.
User currently offlineJohnwaynebobbet From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2013, 59 posts, RR: 0
Reply 146, posted (5 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 13660 times:

Quoting VCy (Reply 144):
I can see las vegas moving to gatwick to make some slots available

I believe it will stay at LHR as LGW already has a LAS flight.