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SAA Drops EZE, Looks To Trim Other Longhaul  
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24326 posts, RR: 47
Posted (5 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 14757 times:

As part of its restructuring plan, South African Airways management has identified loss making long haul routes for cuts.

Both Beijing and Buenos Aires were at the top of the carriers list for discontinuation, however due to "shareholder views" (read SA government), carrier has opted to keep Beijing and only drop Buenos Aires for now. According to South African Department of Public Enterprises, China had "strategic and development reasons” for being retained.

According to SAA the Buenos Aires route was losing approx USD $5mil annually, while Beijing was generating a $30mil loss.

Additionally Sao Paulo and Mumbai were identified as loss making markets to be cut also, however they are also being retained for now.


Story:
Argentina complains South African Airways decision to cut the Buenos Aires route
http://en.mercopress.com/2013/11/07/...sion-to-cut-the-buenos-aires-route
and
Study finds Johannesburg-Mumbai route unprofitable
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/...-for-sa-airways/article5314298.ece

=

In my view, its good loss making routes are getting the chop, however yet again here the government is only allowing SA to make half-steps and continue to fly markets which continue to accumulate red ink.
Hardly the proper full recipe for the long time loss making enterprise.

[Edited 2013-11-07 08:15:15]


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
95 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7524 posts, RR: 43
Reply 1, posted (5 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 14562 times:

Wow, so with this Argentina has lost its air links with South Africa. First MH quit EZE-CPT and now SA ends EZE-JNB. I wonder if the Argentinian government will push AR to launch service to South Africa. Interesting that GRU is also on the list of destinations to be cut; I would have imagined that JNB-GRU was at least mildly profitable.


Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineyellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 5886 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (5 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 14532 times:

If all EZE-JNB links have been cut, that traffic will presumably flow over GRU now....might make buoy those routes now.


When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7524 posts, RR: 43
Reply 3, posted (5 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 14459 times:

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 2):
If all EZE-JNB links have been cut, that traffic will presumably flow over GRU now....might make buoy those routes now.

Very good point. SA would need however to find a codeshare/mileage partner for GRU-EZE or GRU-AEP flights (and maybe other GRU-Argentina flights) in order to be in a position to continue serving Buenos Aires/Argentina fliers.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineAF022 From France, joined Dec 2003, 2135 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (5 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 14396 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Additionally Sao Paulo and Mumbai were identified as loss making markets to be cut also, however they are also being retained for now.

How on earth can GRU not be profitable for SAA? It is one of the few routes with good aircraft utilization.

Had you asked me what are the most profitable routes for SAA I would have thought GRU, PEK, BOM and EZE because utilization to Europe is so bad. But if SAA can't even make money with these routes they are really in bad shape.


User currently offlineirishayes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2088 posts, RR: 15
Reply 5, posted (5 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 14364 times:

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 1):

Wow, so with this Argentina has lost its air links with South Africa. First MH quit EZE-CPT and now SA ends EZE-JNB.

Yup. But it's largely because the yields are not there between the two markets. Argentina is not a high growth market. Moreover, the financial states of both flag carriers cannot support linkages.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 1):
I wonder if the Argentinian government will push AR to launch service to South Africa

Possibly. But, as we all know, AR is not a picnic themselves  
Quoting EddieDude (Reply 1):
Interesting that GRU is also on the list of destinations to be cut; I would have imagined that JNB-GRU was at least mildly profitable.

Virtually all of SAA's long haul routes are unprofitable, according to sources: PEK, HKG, BOM, GRU and EZE included. Of those, EZE is the most politically and economically unstable, so it is the first to go. GRU will be retained just by nature of the fact that it is Brasil. PEK, by similar virtue of being part of a BRIC country, has also received government opposition to being chopped due to its political importance. I cannot imagine how SAA can expect to turn a profit on this route with an A346.

BOM ought to be axed as well. It's simply redundant for SAA to serve this market despite the large volume between South Africa and India - which is frankly far too-yielding and subject to being eaten alive by the GCCs. After forging codeshares with EY and 9W, SA should just abandon serving India on its own metal entirely and route pax via AUH.

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
In my view, its good loss making routes are getting the chop, however yet again here the government is only allowing SA to make half-steps and continue to fly markets which continue to accumulate red ink.
Hardly the proper full recipe for the long time loss making enterprise.

Agreed. Trimming the fat doesn't do much good when the entire structure is completely bloated.

SAA also has NO long-haul fleet replacement for the Airbus A340s which is absolutely going to slaughter them if they don't act fast.

[Edited 2013-11-07 09:11:21]


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User currently offlinemercure1 From French Polynesia, joined Jul 2008, 1131 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (5 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 14338 times:

So lets see.
Article says Sao Paulo loses more money then EZE. So lets put that at $10mil. Also for fun lets assume Mumbai lose $10mil.

So airline says it identified 4 markets that lose $55mil USD annually and government only allow then to cut 1 route at $5mil savings.

SA is a cancer patient and needs major restructuring, not a little aspirin.

  


User currently offlinebsbisland From Brazil, joined Jul 2005, 365 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (5 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 14225 times:

SAA flies JNB-GRU 11 weekly. If it's really unprofitable it would make more sense to cut a few weekly frequencies before dropping it. And for some reason the airline has not announced any reduction in frequencies.

User currently offlineAF022 From France, joined Dec 2003, 2135 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (5 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 13998 times:

Quoting bsbisland (Reply 7):
SAA flies JNB-GRU 11 weekly. If it's really unprofitable it would make more sense to cut a few weekly frequencies before dropping it. And for some reason the airline has not announced any reduction in frequencies.

Agree. SA224 that arrives GRU at 0100 could surely be cut. That arrival time in GRU is awful. They should cut that flight and leave SA222/223 which has a great schedule.

If they are losing money to GRU this would be the quickest way to resolve losses.


User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 7874 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (5 months 2 weeks ago) and read 13855 times:

Quoting AF022 (Reply 4):
Had you asked me what are the most profitable routes for SAA I would have thought GRU, PEK, BOM and EZE because utilization to Europe is so bad. But if SAA can't even make money with these routes they are really in bad shape.
Quoting AF022 (Reply 8):
If they are losing money to GRU this would be the quickest way to resolve losses.

i don't believe SA's losses have much to do with the markets or routes they fly to. I think awfully poor management and special interests are the cause.

Quoting irishayes (Reply 5):
Virtually all of SAA's long haul routes are unprofitable

This just proves my point. It points to a deeply rooted problem with the company, not the markets or routes that they serve.


User currently offlinebehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4716 posts, RR: 44
Reply 10, posted (5 months 2 weeks ago) and read 13801 times:

This is all so contradictory. To be very frank, not a single long haul route of SAA makes a NET PROFIT. Some may make an OPERATIONAL PROFIT but definitely not a net profit. The only A340 operated route according to me that makes or comes close to making a net profit for SAA are LAD and LOS !

As far as BOM and PEK are concerned, I would suggest the following to keep both online in a cost saving manner:

a) Operate a daily A346 JNB-BOM-PEK-BOM-JNB and get 5th freedom traffic rights on BOM-PEK-BOM. On this sector, it can code share with both CA and 9W + have a monopoly as no one flies BOM-PEK nonstop for which there is good demand and premium traffic to be exploited. Look at how nicely SAA is performing on IAD-DKR-IAD in terms of S/F.

b) In this way, both key cities are maintained online and get to be operated on a daily basis each respectively.

As far as GRU is concerned, if it is such a big loss maker, first step to reduce it from 11 weekly to daily and help stabilize the yields there. But yes it should definitely not be cut.

What about the daily PER and JFK services which also I would reckon lose far more than JNB-BOM !

For USA, SAA should just focus on IAD and cut off JFK for cost saving purposes as IAD is a major STAR hub and they exploit it better with beyond UA feed. FYI, SAA carried last year over 60,000 pax alone on IAD-DKR-IAD !

HKG too I dont see any point of SAA continuing to operate there as the competition is intense. They would be better off to SE Asia code sharing out of JNB with fellow STAR partners TG and SQ via their respective hubs.


User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7524 posts, RR: 43
Reply 11, posted (5 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 13595 times:

Quoting irishayes (Reply 5):
Argentina is not a high growth market. Moreover, the financial states of both flag carriers cannot support linkages.

It is a pity. Argentina is a major commodities producer and it could be a success story if it were in the hands of capable rulers. Buenos Aires could be a major Southern Hemisphere hub of finance and trade.

Quoting irishayes (Reply 5):
as we all know, AR is not a picnic themselves

Absolutely true, but if Mrs. Prez wants AR to launch a flight to some unreasonable destination, she might just get it. She will have a lineup of very nice A332s and A345s ready to be deployed all over.

Quoting irishayes (Reply 5):
similar virtue of being part of a BRIC country

MIST is the new BRIC lol.

Quoting irishayes (Reply 5):
SAA also has NO long-haul fleet replacement for the Airbus A340s which is absolutely going to slaughter them if they don't act fast.

They were planning an order rather soon, no?

Quoting bsbisland (Reply 7):
SAA flies JNB-GRU 11 weekly. If it's really unprofitable it would make more sense to cut a few weekly frequencies before dropping it. And for some reason the airline has not announced any reduction in frequencies.

Yes, maybe yields will adjust upwards if it is scaled down to 7 or 8 weeklies.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offline123 From Bolivia, joined Nov 2003, 743 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (5 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 13410 times:

I´ve never been on an empty SAA flight in/out of GRU or HKG.
PEK yes, last flight JNB/PEK there were 2(two) pax in C class and it seemed Y was also quite empty. Question here is, how much cargo is in the hold, remember airlines earn on the main deck and on the cargo deck. In- and Outbound.
Would surprise me if GRU or HKG are axed.
EZE is different, with the bad economic situation of Argentina, can understand low demand on that route - now. That can change any moment though.


User currently offlineDexSwart From South Africa, joined Aug 2012, 302 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 13186 times:

JNB - PER is quite successful, I believe.

Along with LHR and I'm assuming the North American routes, what are the most profitable routes for SA?



Durban. Melbourne. Denver.
User currently offlineMesaFlyGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 2488 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (5 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 13049 times:
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Quoting behramjee (Reply 10):
For USA, SAA should just focus on IAD and cut off JFK for cost saving purposes as IAD is a major STAR hub and they exploit it better with beyond SA)">UA feed. FYI, SAA carried last year over 60,000 pax alone on IAD-DKR-IAD !

Well SAA has been rightsizing the JFK route lately. It is now, seasonally, an a343 again through DKR (westbound). I think there is a pretty good O&D market from NYC to South Africa so I can't imagine they'll want to dump that anytime soon. Couple that with the codeshare with SA)">B6, I imagine SA is not doing completely dreadfully at JFK, at least not enough to cut the route completely.



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User currently offlineAF022 From France, joined Dec 2003, 2135 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (5 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 13038 times:

Quoting behramjee (Reply 10):
For USA, SAA should just focus on IAD and cut off JFK for cost saving purposes as IAD is a major STAR hub and they exploit it better with beyond SA)">UA feed. FYI, SAA carried last year over 60,000 pax alone on IAD-DKR-IAD !

I would be surprised if SAA didn't make money on the JFK route. They seem to have very strong loads in the front and fares are really high.

Quoting 123 (Reply 12):
Question here is, how much cargo is in the hold, remember airlines earn on the main deck and on the cargo deck.

Worldwide cargo market has been very rough lately.

Quoting DexSwart (Reply 13):
Along with LHR and I'm assuming the North American routes, what are the most profitable routes for SA?

I doubt LHR is profitable. Too much ground time. Too much competition.


User currently offlineMD11junkie From Switzerland, joined May 2005, 3136 posts, RR: 58
Reply 16, posted (5 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 12981 times:

Quoting bsbisland (Reply 7):
SAA flies JNB-GRU 11 weekly. If it's really unprofitable it would make more sense to cut a few weekly frequencies before dropping it. And for some reason the airline has not announced any reduction in frequencies.

lol

Quoting AF022 (Reply 8):

If they are losing money to GRU this would be the quickest way to resolve losses.

They are losing money on both. Even with an A330 on SA222/223.

Quoting behramjee (Reply 10):
For USA, SAA should just focus on IAD and cut off JFK for cost saving purposes as IAD is a major STAR hub and they exploit it better with beyond SA)">UA feed. FYI, SAA carried last year over 60,000 pax alone on IAD-DKR-IAD !

JFK has been rerouted through DKR since 27OCT13. Albeit I don't think it's permanent. JFK non-stop is a big money loser.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 9):

i don't believe SA's losses have much to do with the markets or routes they fly to. I think awfully poor management and special interests are the cause.

Quoting irishayes (Reply 5):
Virtually all of SAA's long haul routes are unprofitable

This just proves my point. It points to a deeply rooted problem with the company, not the markets or routes that they serve.

FINALLY! Thank you, Airbazar - it seems you are the only one that has seen where the actual problem is. Welcome to my RU List.

Saludos,



There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
User currently offlineMD11junkie From Switzerland, joined May 2005, 3136 posts, RR: 58
Reply 17, posted (5 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 12953 times:

Quoting 123 (Reply 12):
EZE is different, with the bad economic situation of Argentina, can understand low demand on that route - now. That can change any moment though.

The route has been growing non-stop as well as the yields. It's impressive. GRU, au contraire to logic, has been falling tremendously. What bad economic situation in Argentina?

Quoting AF022 (Reply 15):

I doubt LHR is profitable. Too much ground time. Too much competition.

Exactly.

Quoting AF022 (Reply 15):
I would be surprised if SAA didn't make money on the JFK route. They seem to have very strong loads in the front and fares are really high.

Restricted operations with A340-600. Not making money. You should be surprised.  
Quoting DexSwart (Reply 13):
JNB - PER is quite successful, I believe.
PER isn't a bit of successful as HKG or BOM in terms of LF. I seriously doubt it is in a better financial shape. PER is being kept so that SAA can say that flies to all continents.

Quoting irishayes (Reply 5):
Of those, EZE is the most politically and economically unstable

Generalizing much?

[Edited 2013-11-07 13:48:55]


There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
User currently offlinebehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4716 posts, RR: 44
Reply 18, posted (5 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 12866 times:

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 16):
JFK has been rerouted through DKR since 27OCT13. Albeit I don't think it's permanent. JFK non-stop is a big money loser.

JFK in the past too I recall was re-routed via ACC with 5th freedom traffic rights but that too got shut.

Quoting AF022 (Reply 15):
I would be surprised if SAA didn't make money on the JFK route. They seem to have very strong loads in the front and fares are really high.

You seem to be forgetting that JNB-JFK is an ultra long haul flight operated with a gas guzzling A340. Apart from LH these days (on certain selected routes only), I dont think so any airline makes a net profit flying an A340 on long haul services! Also JFK-JNB one stop via EU is very cheap on AF/KL in particular if you want to save especially if a family of 4 is flying.

Quoting DexSwart (Reply 13):
Along with LHR and I'm assuming the North American routes, what are the most profitable routes for SA?

Those are within Africa only as the yields, premium demand and shorter flying distance involved helps them here as well as excess baggage revenue.


User currently onlinejsnww81 From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 1993 posts, RR: 15
Reply 19, posted (5 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 12763 times:

Quoting behramjee (Reply 18):
PER isn't a bit of successful as HKG or BOM in terms of LF. I seriously doubt it is in a better financial shape. PER is being kept so that SAA can say that flies to all continents.

A South African friend of mine refers to the JNB-PER flight as the "Emigration Express." Full of South Africans leaving the country outbound, and returning to visit friends and family on the inbound.


User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8091 posts, RR: 7
Reply 20, posted (5 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 12410 times:
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Quoting 123 (Reply 12):
never been on an empty SAA flight in/out of GRU or HKG.
PEK yes, last flight JNB/PEK there were 2(two) pax in C class and it seemed Y was also quite empty. Question here is, how much cargo is in the hold, remember airlines earn on the main deck and on the cargo deck. In- and Outbound.
Would surprise me if GRU or HKG are axed.

Peking is being operated to please China, SAA needs to stop being the AR of Africa. Buy or lease some 777 and ditch the 4 engine A340 on AR, they would love some -600 to go with their new ex-Singapore A340-500's. Does flying to Zurich and FRA make sense, FRA perhaps but not every secondary star hub in Europe.


User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 4707 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (5 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 12368 times:

Quoting jsnww81 (Reply 19):
A South African friend of mine refers to the JNB-PER flight as the "Emigration Express." Full of South Africans leaving the country outbound, and returning to visit friends and family on the inbound

That's the story of about 90% of the market between South Africa and Australia. QF JNB-SYD is exactly the same.

I would expect that route to be retained just to connect the South African "diaspora" to home. I doubt its profitable, though. SAA have said in the past that they lose money on the QF codeshare JNB-SYD (which amuses me greatly) so I can't see why they would be rolling in it at PER. Again, it comes down to systemic management issues. SYD-JNB is said to be an absolute gold mine for QF (which is why it amuses me that SAA can't make a profit selling codeshares) and when you look at the fairs between AUS and RSA you can see why it would be profitable. Unfortunately, I don't think that SAA is able to properly realise that potential.



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2887 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (5 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 12359 times:

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 17):
PER isn't a bit of successful as HKG or BOM in terms of LF. I seriously doubt it is in a better financial shape. PER is being kept so that SAA can say that flies to all continents.

Given the profit sharing, metal neutral JBA that SA has with QF, and the fact that QF is making money out of JNB, it's fair to assume that SA is as well. Any route that is turning a profit has to be one of their stellar performers if they really are in such bad shape (which I don't doubt they are).


User currently offlineMesaFlyGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 2488 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (5 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 12311 times:
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So, if the Arentinians are complaining about the flight being axed, they have 5 capable aircraft being delivered. Do something about it and start the route yourself!        


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User currently offlineAF022 From France, joined Dec 2003, 2135 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (5 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 11433 times:

Quoting behramjee (Reply 18):
You seem to be forgetting that JNB-JFK is an ultra long haul flight operated with a gas guzzling A340. Apart from LH these days (on certain selected routes only), I dont think so any airline makes a net profit flying an A340 on long haul services! Also JFK-JNB one stop via EU is very cheap on AF/KL in particular if you want to save especially if a family of 4 is flying.

if SA is targeting families then they really are in bad shape. ULH cannot work full of families.

My anecdotal evidence is that the flights are full up front very frequently, and that their fares are very high. Even with payload penalty this flight cannot be a dog.


25 AR385 : Strange indeed because AR flew that route during the 80s. It was first EZE-CPT and then EZE-JNB. IT was a very succesful flight and many Argentines f
26 dcajet : That is really funny, but one, albeit small, detail. It is not true. Mrs Kirchner is not involved in running AR, neither at the strategic/planning le
27 civetfive : there's likely to be a large amount of second-hand 777s from the likes of SQ and EK soon, which an airline like SA could snap up relatively cheaply.
28 LipeGIG : It seems SA pays the price of a limited O&D market and growing competition by Gulf Carriers. Just shows how this forum is biased on saying profita
29 Tupolev160 : Sad to see another route from EZE being dropped. Looks more as a result of a lack of cooperation and equipment being used than of a lack of logic supp
30 PATRistar : Next year we will have the world cup in Brazil and in 2016 the summer olympic games, If SAA drop the GRU flight TAAG will smile alone with the only li
31 Stitch : If South Africa's economic relationship with China generates more than $5 million a year, it could very well be worth having SAA absorb the loss in c
32 irishayes : It's not a generalization if its true. Why should SAA fly a high-CASM aircraft to a no-growth country? MH figured this out last year and canned their
33 LAXintl : Its becoming clear in my view, this "restructuring" is hardly going to be the cleansing the airline needs. Government clearly rather force airline mai
34 behramjee : I'm surprised though none of the Chinese carriers fly to South Africa given that its China's biggest trading partner in Africa. A route like PEK-MRU-J
35 mercure1 : From what I can gather from winter timetable SA service following longhaul markets with weekly schedule. Europe Frankfurt - 7x - A346 London - 14x - A
36 Post contains links AR326 : Here's a detailed analysis that answers a lot of the questions being posed in this thread http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...rting-with-buenos-air
37 AR385 : I don´t get it. The article says SAA needs to restructure badly to survive but at the same time the government seems to be forcing them to keep rout
38 B-HOP : Not surpise they lose money in Hong Kong when the plane sits for 12 hour on a 343 that can't get much cargo from JNB. CX makes money on seafood shippe
39 MesaFlyGuy : EWR is also slot restricted, which may pose an issue for SA. We'd have to see if they could find a pair to allow them to operate the flights. Althoug
40 Post contains images abrelosojos : = India - RSA is actually does pretty well for high yielding traffic. It just goes via EK. = I am sorry. This is a terrible idea. They could not make
41 behramjee : FYI, ET flies Africa-India-China since many years...ADD-DEL-PEK previously and now ADD-DEL-HGH. As I too stated earlier, this option of mine too will
42 Post contains images abrelosojos : = I am well aware of what ET does. You should know that ET has route rights on Africa - India - China. South Africa or (say) Nigeria does not . = Wel
43 Post contains images SA7700 : Not to be pedantic, but some users may construe this statement as fact that TG flies daily between BKK-JNB-BKK, which is not the case. Thanks and reg
44 behramjee : yes am aware as the Nigeria-India bilateral has not been re-negotiated for over 20+ years LOL . It still is 2 weekly Nigeria-India nonstop flights pe
45 Post contains images PlymSpotter : This is where state ownership comes into play. How much income do these four 'loss making' routes directly bring to the South African economy, income
46 qf2220 : I dont think there is a JBA between SA and QF. IIRC it is a 'hard block' capacity purchase agreement where each airline purchases capacity on the air
47 Post contains links SA7700 : That would be correct. It is a "hard block" capacity purchase agreement. See the following article. The code-share agreement involves South African A
48 Post contains images airbazar : That would be a sure way to kill SAA for good, due to the limitations that the 777 has when flying out of JNB. The one thing they have done right was
49 Speedbird128 : I've been flamed before for saying it, but you're 100% correct. If SAA got free fuel and planes they'd still be in the red. They have received around
50 MIflyer12 : Would somebody (ferpe?) please note the lift capability of the SAA A346 (42J, 275Y) compared to a Delta 777-200LR (45J, 36Y+, 188Y)? Delta operates f
51 Post contains links airbazar : I'm not sure what you're trying to get to but this topic has been discussed here on a.net ad nauseam, but not even the mighty 77L wil loutperform the
52 mercure1 : Sure it does - remove the poorer economics of the A346 - a marginal route may become profitable. There are two sides to a balance sheet. Operating le
53 Speedbird128 : SAA's major finance drain isn't through its fleet's fuel consumption. Do you know how much fuel 17 BILLION rand is? Inside SAA is a form of cancer. I
54 LAXintl : Sure SAA might be a cancer, but inefficiency in every area eats away at this. If your cost to produce a product is too high, this needs to be tackled
55 Speedbird128 : Correct. And unfortunately SAA's major inefficiency isn't its fuel burn. If it was, then just perhaps, at least one of their fleet renewal and turn-a
56 MD11junkie : You are clearly not familiar with the airlines' route numbers and are repeating what others say (which doesn't make it true). EZE has grown a lot (an
57 Post contains images airbazar : Poorer in what way? No twin aircraft performs better out of JNB than an A346. The problem isn't the aircraft. LH makes plenty of money flying A343's
58 Post contains images abrelosojos : = Again, I am well aware of the numbers, and the airline trying to seek a change in Nigeria - India bilateral with their 1-stop option ... However, O
59 mercure1 : Its well know the economics of the A346 lag behind. Just look at its lackluster sales record. So what do the 40+ other airlines that serve JNB do ??
60 behramjee : Just a fyi in case anyone is wondering what the passenger flown numbers (O&D) from South Africa to SE Asia, there are as follows for JAN-DEC 2012
61 Post contains links and images airbazar : Not from an airport at nearly 6,000ft alt. If you show me the numbers that prove it, I'll have to agree with you but for now I'll go with someone who
62 Post contains images SA7700 : Obviously the A346's will not be removed until replacements have been found, just like when the 747 fleet were progressively retired in favor of the
63 MIflyer12 : I called out to ferpe specifically, as he has shown an ability to write concisely with data in a way that you (and zeke, in the link you gave) do not
64 Speedbird128 : I disagree on the principle that I pay South African taxes. Why should billions be spent to save hundreds of thousands due to a fuel burn delta. Ther
65 LipeGIG : As for the Olympics, TAAG Is already happy as they fly to the place where action will happen. I doubt SA will cut any flights to Sao Paulo right now
66 SA7700 : That is true, I hear what you are saying. However keep in mind that they flew MEL-JNB-MEL whilst SA only fly JNB-PER-JNB. Surely SA would take less o
67 Post contains images Speedbird128 : Hi SA7700! Yes that is a valid point you make. Herewith the differences between MEL and PER. ETOPS 120 180 and 240 shaded in. Even at ETOPS 180 they
68 SA7700 : Thanks for the info Speedbird128 and the GCM, it is very interesting! I had no idea QF went as far South as PE. When I was on 63/64 (quite a few time
69 Speedbird128 : When I controlled FAJS Oceanic - as it was then called - I sometimes (I wouldn't be able to quantify the percentage of flights) had the QF Jumbo file
70 Post contains links and images SA7700 : When we drifted towards Antarctica on the daylight flights from SYD-JNB the flight deck would alert us pax on numerous occasions that icebergs where
71 qf002 : Apologies, I don't know what I was thinking! I must be getting my QF partnerships mixed up (which isn't hard to do these days)...
72 Post contains images SA7700 : Not a problem at all. They remain codeshare partners and handle each other's pax in SYD and JNB. QF make use of SA lounges in JNB and not those of On
73 Post contains images airbazar : They could but at what cost? You can fly the 77L LHR-SYD if you really want to. That's not my argument. My argument is about the cost and revenue pot
74 Post contains images SA7700 : That is sort of a broad generalization. Why is EK, QR, DL, EY, MS, BA (all flights), TK, TG, etc. not using their available quads out of JNB to vario
75 airbazar : You're the one making generalizations. All my comments have been in the context of 5,000+ routes out of JNB. I made that clear. With the exception of
76 airbazar : It's too late to edit my posts above and I just realized that I mixed up the nm/mi distances. 5,000+ for routes to Europe would be in Miles, not Naut
77 luckyone : As recently as August BA was sending the 777 into JNB. Air France also operated the 77W into JNB in lieu of the 747s they had in their fleet. This co
78 SA7700 : I totally hear what you are saying, but just to recap... Keep SA236/237 (JNB-LHR-JNB) in mind. It is a daily A332. (5620mi; 4884nm). Also the daily K
79 Post contains images Speedbird128 : But SAA fly empty LOL! Seriously though - is there any capacity penalty on that A332 to LHR? I'd almost be certain that it won't manage full pax and
80 SA7700 : I'm not sure - I can't say without a doubt whether they take a payload hit or not on JNB-LHR. That being said they operate A330-243's with RR Trent 7
81 behramjee : fyi whenever looking at the published stated range of an aircraft by Airbus and Boeing, you can easily deduct 15% to gain a more accurate outlook ![E
82 Post contains images airbazar : August is Winter in JNB. That and the lighter loads should explain that. Again, my point is not that the twin can't fly the route. My point is that a
83 Speedbird128 : That's fact. Not supposition. They wouldn't have needed 17 billion in bailout money to keep going otherwise... I'd be surprised if this isn't what th
84 mercure1 : The A330 has been going to LHR for 2-years now, summer and winter. Also MUC has been getting the A330 this year as well, same with Sao Paulo as well,
85 airbazar : That's exactly what they are doing, relatively speaking. LHR is the only really long A332 route and they have an A346 as backup. Even JNB-GRU is bare
86 LAXintl : They also do MUC on the 330 somedays as well. Thats a pretty haul. Airplane is certainly part of the cost problem. If your seat cost are being handic
87 Post contains images airbazar : No my logic is that the revenue potential of the existing fleet is greater than the revenue potential if they incur the cost of upgrading the fleet t
88 Speedbird128 : Yes they should have kept the SP fleet. If I as a taxpayer are going to throw away billions of my hard earned money in handouts, at least let me see
89 SA744 : Yes it is a very sad state of affairs for SAA. If I think about it I can see SAA dropping longhaul altogether, focus on regional and domestic. Maybe s
90 Post contains images SA7700 : IMMHO it is due to yields. Many carriers have entered and exited over the years - most of the time due to poor yields and as far as I can recall, nev
91 Speedbird128 : Hi Chris! One of the past CEO's had said this was his plan all along - i don't remember which CEO as they seemed to have changed quite often. However
92 Post contains images airbazar : I'd say it's more like a 5 cent question No way it makes money. SAA has one of the lowest seat desities you'll ever find in an A332 (only 222 seats),
93 upwardfacing : Rather than drop EZE, I rather thought they would be adding to their South American network: GIG and SCL in particular.
94 Fyano773 : According to that article, SAA is playing a new role in the airline biz: ...nice wording by CAPA! :D[Edited 2013-11-13 17:03:34]
95 Post contains links and images aal151heavy : I have flown on this flight, SA 226 from JNB to EZE. Sad to see it go. It was a memorable flight in that it was a South Atlantic crossing (unique rout
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