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Tacloban Airport (TAC/RPVA) After Haiyan/Yolanda  
User currently offlineYLWbased From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2006, 803 posts, RR: 4
Posted (5 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 11047 times:

I found some pictures of Tacloban Airport after Super Typhoon Haiyan/Yolanda strikes 2 days ago, there are still number of areas that communications has not been restored, death toll is expected to sky rocketed once communication is back.

The last time I've seen similar images was the Tsunami that hit Japan in 2011, Sendai airport looks identical to this with less damages to the terminal buildings.

http://holland.pk/1elu


May all victims recover soon and those who perished rest in peace.

YLWbased


Hong Kong is not China. Not better or worse, just different.
58 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2063 posts, RR: 20
Reply 1, posted (5 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 10933 times:
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Airport a madhouse of people waiting for something to happen to get them out of there.
CBS affiliate asking for a "Berlin Style" airlift.

An Airlift may happen but it will be too late for many.
Terrible human tragedy unfolding.



"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
User currently offlinecrownvic From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1796 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (5 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 10819 times:

I am down in the Philippines now. I was was scheduled to fly into TAC this week and have obviously cancelled the trip. I spent one hour on the phone today with Cebu Pacific "negotiating" my refund, because the airport no longer exists. The agent had no information for flights later in the week and was not so willing to refund my money! I said that you better get some updated information. The city and airport have been practically wiped off the face of Earth and nearly 10K people may have lost their lives. The situation is not going to change in the next 3 days, when I am scheduled to fly there. Finally, after being on hold for more than 30 minutes, they "granted" me my refund. I will see a credit back on my cc in 45-60 days. Cebu Pacific finds new ways to reach new lows, whenever I fly them  

User currently offlineYLWbased From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2006, 803 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (5 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 10743 times:

Quoting crownvic (Reply 2):
Cebu Pacific finds new ways to reach new lows, whenever I fly them

is 5J man, I'm so used to their nonsense I just laugh when they do something absolutely ridiculous.

The only reason why I keep flying them is becoz no other airlines can fly me to MNL from HKG for less than HKD$500 (USD$63) round trip, tax included.

YLWbased



Hong Kong is not China. Not better or worse, just different.
User currently offlineneutrino From Singapore, joined May 2012, 588 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 9408 times:

Quoting YLWbased (Reply 3):

You have obviously not experienced PQ's horrendous service or rather, lack thereof.
I have completed only one of the five flights on their Sin-Crk sectors I had booked as they cancelled the rest after repeatedly rescheduling them. Caused me untold trouble with my leave and extra expenditure booking on alternatives at short notice.
The were a mess even before they started flying their first fare-paying passenger. Thankfully, you won't have the "honor" of getting onto the Hkg-Crk route as they are now history at Crk. The inept PQ management might have shortened Tony Fernandes' life by quite a few years.

I also have issues with 5J, but like you, I happily bear with them for their super low prices. That being said, they are mostly on time which is very important. And they hardly cancel their flights due to so-called "operational reasons".



Potestatem obscuri lateris nescitis
User currently offlineEBGflyer From Denmark, joined Sep 2006, 970 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (5 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 9208 times:

Quoting neutrino (Reply 4):
also have issues with 5J, but like you, I happily bear with them for their super low prices. That being said, they are mostly on time which is very important.

I don't find 5J cheap at all. To get the promos you need to book way way ahead of your flight and often the promo is often not available for your specific flight. As you get closer to the departure 5J is actually often a lot more expensive than PAL. Combined with their poor service and issues with safety, they are a no go for me.



Future flights: CPH-BRU; CPH-NRT-MNL; MNL-PVG-CPH; CPH-LAX
User currently offlineAF185 From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2012, 241 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 9040 times:

Quoting EBGflyer (Reply 5):
I don't find 5J cheap at all. To get the promos you need to book way way ahead of your flight and often the promo is often not available for your specific flight. As you get closer to the departure 5J is actually often a lot more expensive than PAL. Combined with their poor service and issues with safety, they are a no go for me.

I'd say it really depends on the time of the year, but they are usually very cheap to Cebu. I booked a return flight HKG-CEB-HKG in December for 900HKD (USD115) 1.5 months before, and on the most demanded weekend flights. This is quite unbeatable, though this is at the expense of good service and probably safety.


User currently offlineEBGflyer From Denmark, joined Sep 2006, 970 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (5 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 8810 times:

Quoting AF185 (Reply 6):
I'd say it really depends on the time of the year, but they are usually very cheap to Cebu. I booked a return flight HKG-CEB-HKG in December for 900HKD (USD115) 1.5 months before, and on the most demanded weekend flights. This is quite unbeatable, though this is at the expense of good service and probably safety

I have checked prices with 5J as well on this route and both price and depature times (before they were adjusted to a morning departure) were rarely attractive. AirphilExpress (now PALexpress) were usually cheaper and more attractive departure times.

The above is not relevant to this thread anyway. Tacloban Airport (TAC/RPVA) is probably not going to be operational for commercial flights for quite some time.

Although Ormoc Airport (OMC/RVPO) never succesfully have had any commercial flights on a larger scale, does anybody know about the the condition of this airport?

And in case this airport is not damaged, could this be an opportunity to bring in flights to the Leyte Region?



Future flights: CPH-BRU; CPH-NRT-MNL; MNL-PVG-CPH; CPH-LAX
User currently offlineYLWbased From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2006, 803 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (5 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 8788 times:

Quoting EBGflyer (Reply 7):
I have checked prices with 5J as well on this route and both price and depature times (before they were adjusted to a morning departure) were rarely attractive. AirphilExpress (now PALexpress) were usually cheaper and more attractive departure times.

The above is not relevant to this thread anyway. Tacloban Airport (TAC/RPVA) is probably not going to be operational for commercial flights for quite some time.

Although Ormoc Airport (OMC/RVPO) never succesfully have had any commercial flights on a larger scale, does anybody know about the the condition of this airport?

And in case this airport is not damaged, could this be an opportunity to bring in flights to the Leyte Region?

I'm the type of traveler who book 12-18 months in advance just to save a few bucks, I already have ticket booked for Jan 2015 as of today, and I've yet to spend anything more than HKD$500 (round trip tax in) from Hong Kong to anywhere in the Philippines. Are there any other airlines that can provide me with that price? - NO. So it really depends on what type of traveler you are, if you're the type who buy at short notice, you should avoid all LCCs  

YLWbased



Hong Kong is not China. Not better or worse, just different.
User currently offlineAkiestar From Philippines, joined May 2009, 768 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (5 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 8614 times:

Quoting EBGflyer (Reply 7):
Tacloban Airport (TAC/RPVA) is probably not going to be operational for commercial flights for quite some time.

Actually, TAC is now open for limited commercial operations. Only turboprops may land here, and PR/2P has planned a series of shuttle flights between CEB and TAC to help stranded passengers. A special MNL-TAC flight will be bringing in relief goods into the city. Most people leaving TAC in the aftermath of the typhoon ended up doing so via CRM (Catarman) or CYP (Calbayog).

It's a good thing then that there were plans to build a brand-new terminal for the airport.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=108677462&postcount=1684

Unfortunately, the money which could have been used for airport expansion was partially channeled to the controversial Disbursement Acceleration Program (DAP), the controversial program which has been condemned as a conduit for official corruption (around P1 billion went to senators who voted for the impeachment of former Chief Justice Renato Corona). TAC had P1.1 billion allocated to it, of which P700 million went to the DAP.

http://leytesamardaily.net/2013/10/d...n-danger-dbm-transfer-fund-to-dap/

[Edited 2013-11-11 02:14:44]

User currently offlineEBGflyer From Denmark, joined Sep 2006, 970 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 8566 times:

Quoting YLWbased (Reply 8):
So it really depends on what type of traveler you are, if you're the type who buy at short notice, you should avoid all LCCs

Sure it is. But 12-18 months is a looong time. I'm simply not able to know my whereabouts that long in advance due to work. I often book 1-3 months in advance - sometime 2 weeks. Sometime less. Travelling this way Cebu Pacific is rarely the cheapest option and I doubt majority of the seats are sold that far in advance as you buy them.



Future flights: CPH-BRU; CPH-NRT-MNL; MNL-PVG-CPH; CPH-LAX
User currently offlinebennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7210 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (5 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 8198 times:

http://uk.ask.com/wiki/Daniel_Z._Romualdez_Airport

Given that the runway is just over 7,000 feet, could some smaller jets land as well as turboprops.

Clearly, mobile ATC will need to be provided, (possibly by the military).

They may also need to start with VFR only.


User currently offlinecrownvic From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1796 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 7415 times:

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 9):
Quoting EBGflyer (Reply 7):
Tacloban Airport (TAC/RPVA) is probably not going to be operational for commercial flights for quite some time.

Actually, TAC is now open for limited commercial operations. Only turboprops may land here, and PR/2P has planned a series of shuttle flights between CEB and TAC to help stranded passengers. A special MNL-TAC flight will be bringing in relief goods into the city. Most people leaving TAC in the aftermath of the typhoon ended up doing so via CRM (Catarman) or CYP (Calbayog).

The airport was open for operations immediately after the storm, but I think he meant "scheduled operations". I do not see this airport opening to scheduled flights for an extended period of time as the terminal is completely gutted out from flood damage. The only thing left is a ravaged shell that cannot be operational for a long time. The tarmac and runways are intact, but everything else is destroyed. Any of the flights operating now and for the foreseeable future will be special operations and I doubt will be bookable flights, but who knows? It appears even all the ground equipment has been ruined..


User currently offlineneutrino From Singapore, joined May 2012, 588 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 7383 times:

Quoting EBGflyer (Reply 10):
Quoting YLWbased (Reply 8):
So it really depends on what type of traveler you are, if you're the type who buy at short notice, you should avoid all LCCs

Sure it is. But 12-18 months is a looong time. I'm simply not able to know my whereabouts that long in advance due to work. I often book 1-3 months in advance - sometime 2 weeks. Sometime less. Travelling this way Cebu Pacific is rarely the cheapest option and I doubt majority of the seats are sold that far in advance as you buy them.

As YLW said, it all depends on the individual. It didn't seem to work for but fitted him to a T. Its also suitable for me; usually booking 3 to 8 months in advance at around USD80 to 100 for SIN-MNL/CRK-SIN. On other LCCs - Jetstar & Tigerair - I paid about 20 to 30 % higher whilst PAL lightened my pockets by approx three times that of 5J.
Only on PQ did I paid around the same as 5J but due to their MONUMENTAL sc***ups, I wouldn't touch them with even the longest wing spars again.



Potestatem obscuri lateris nescitis
User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 12881 posts, RR: 12
Reply 14, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 7373 times:

I suspect the airport will be taken control of by the military with them running limited ATC ops and only during daylight hours mainly to bring in supplies, military persons for policing and evacuate people for the foreseeable future. I doubt only very limited numbers of commercial passenger flights will be resumed for many months due to the loss of almost all facilities. Apparently this airport and the adjacent city was located close to or on the coast in an area with the worst forces of the storm.

Any report on how other commercial airports in the central and southern Philippines do from this massive storm ? Apparently Cebu is mostly operational and will have to take up some of the commercial ops of Tacloban.

[Edited 2013-11-11 08:04:29]

User currently offlineYLWbased From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2006, 803 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 7275 times:

I've booked myself on 5J to ILO on Dec 6th to help with the relief effort, I'm trying to seek military approval to visit Tacloban and Guiuan area, if my request is granted, I'll publish a trip report here.

YLWbased



Hong Kong is not China. Not better or worse, just different.
User currently offlinerichierich From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 4199 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 7207 times:

Those photos are startling and humbling...that looks like a terminal that is under demolition, not what was, until a few days ago, an active airport. What awful devastation. One can only imagine the human toll after seeing something like this.

Quoting crownvic (Reply 2):
after being on hold for more than 30 minutes, they "granted" me my refund. I will see a credit back on my cc in 45-60 days. Cebu Pacific finds new ways to reach new lows, whenever I fly them

You may have patience than me. At the ridiculousness of the situation, I would have hung up and called my credit card company and explained the situation. Let them deal with Cebu.



None shall pass!!!!
User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3389 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 7114 times:

Quoting crownvic (Reply 12):
The only thing left is a ravaged shell that cannot be operational for a long time.

How much building do you need to sell a few tickets, check bags, load and maybe fuel a plane for a 2 hour flight?


User currently onlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4696 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 6786 times:

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 9):
It's a good thing then that there were plans to build a brand-new terminal for the airport.

This catastrophe would force a complete rethink of that planned terminal's design parameters...from apron and floor elevations, wind loads to shoreline protection. A built-up runway would be too expensive to justify for the volume of operations the airport would see...even with the possibility of the same category typhoon occurring periodically.

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 9):
Unfortunately, the money which could have been used for airport expansion was partially channeled to the controversial Disbursement Acceleration Program (DAP), the controversial program which has been condemned as a conduit for official corruption

Pork, by any other name, is just as bad. However, it's almost a "necessary" evil to get anything done. First order of business is to get the funds reinstated...the province's representatives have their work cut out for them. That project has just climbed up to the top of the domestic airport priority totem pole.


Quoting ltbewr (Reply 14):
Any report on how other commercial airports in the central and southern Philippines do from this massive storm ?

Not very detailed, but here's a blog report on that.....

http://imageshack.us/a/img841/4886/znrj.jpg

http://philippineairspace.blogspot.s...ibo-survives-busuanga-limping.html

Quote:
"The Civil Aviation Authority of the Philippines (CAAP) open on Sunday 10 domestic airports that was shutdown by typhoon Yolanda’s wrath Friday. Today Kalibo re-opens while Busuanga airport will open Tuesday after completion of emergency repair works.

Kalibo airport return to normal operations this afternoon with airlines resuming flights to Aklan leaving only three domestic airports - Tacloban, Roxas, and Busuanga - still closed for business due to major terminal damage but military and humanitarian flights are allowed to land.

CAAP Director General William K. Hotchkiss lll flew in Busuanga Sunday morning to bring emergency communication equipment to replace the ones damaged by typhoon winds and hasten the immediate normalization of airport operations.

There are close to 400 foreign tourists that is stranded in Coron, Palawan and may have to stay there longer until one of the C-130s make a scheduled flight tomorrow."


Quoting mham001 (Reply 17):
How much building do you need to sell a few tickets, check bags, load and maybe fuel a plane for a 2 hour flight?

A temporary facility would be alright for that...however, the plan is looking to build something which will serve the province for at least fifty years, if not for the remainder of this century.



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineYLWbased From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2006, 803 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 6644 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 17):
How much building do you need to sell a few tickets, check bags, load and maybe fuel a plane for a 2 hour flight?

As far as I know, power cable to the airport has been completely destroyed in the storm, they'll probably also have to setup diesel generator if they want to restart a few commercial flights in and out, in a city where fuel is now in very limited supply, I doubt they'll waste their precious fuel on this.

YLWbased



Hong Kong is not China. Not better or worse, just different.
User currently offlinecrownvic From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1796 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (5 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 6402 times:

Quoting richierich (Reply 16):
Quoting crownvic (Reply 2):
after being on hold for more than 30 minutes, they "granted" me my refund. I will see a credit back on my cc in 45-60 days. Cebu Pacific finds new ways to reach new lows, whenever I fly them

You may have patience than me. At the ridiculousness of the situation, I would have hung up and called my credit card company and explained the situation. Let them deal with Cebu.

I hear you...I just wanted to cover my butt. You would think the airline would have been proactive in contacting the customers to cancel the flights, but they were not. They probably think they can keep the money of people that are not going to bother to seek the refund!

Quoting mham001 (Reply 17):
Quoting crownvic (Reply 12):
The only thing left is a ravaged shell that cannot be operational for a long time.

How much building do you need to sell a few tickets, check bags, load and maybe fuel a plane for a 2 hour flight?

For one, you need power..Then there is security. You cannot operate unsecured flights, into out stations where the terminals are secure. You need proper crash, fire and rescue and all the other things that go into scheduled airline operations. Something this airport will not be ready, for quite sometime...


User currently offlinebennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7210 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (5 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 6218 times:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-24910209

This is the current BBC Report.

Aircraft seen include A330 CS-TMT of the Belgian AF.

http://www.airfleets.net/ficheapp/plane-a330-96.htm


User currently offlinebennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7210 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (5 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 6019 times:

The BBC are now reporting that the first British aid flight has arrived at Cebu Airport, (an Emirates B777F).

Seen at Tacloban

RP-C3031 of Philipines Airlines Express


6514 C130 of USMC. Apparently this one arrived empty to evacuate US citizens.


User currently offlinebennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7210 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (5 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5975 times:

RP-C3031 is a DHC8-402Q

User currently offlinebennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7210 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (5 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5958 times:

6514 is 166514 KC130J of VMGR152.

25 Post contains links bennett123 : BBC are now showing AN124 UR-82060 of Antonov Airlines in a linked item www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24922083 Not sure if it is at Cebu or Tacloban.
26 Akiestar : The plane's at CEB. There's not enough runway at TAC for that plane to land.
27 Post contains links and images Devilfish : Here's a shot of it..... https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BY1a07NCYAAZnNR.jpg:large Apparently, it was a delivery flight for a replacement transformer of
28 bjorn14 : TAC is now opeb for 24/7 ops thx to th US Marines
29 Post contains images mham001 : The US is landing C130s at Samar. Rumor on Facebook has it that "no politicians are allowed to touch it". I doubt that. They will have this airport o
30 steex : That is definitely the one and only An-225 rather than the comparatively run-of-the-mill An-124.
31 Post contains links mham001 : The US Marines are bringing power and lights today for 24 hr operations at Tacloban. http://www.latimes.com/world/worldno...31113,0,454171.story#axzz2
32 bennett123 : With only 3 active C130's + 6 older aircraft stored, this is not a good time to put one of them in the mud. Incidentally, could any of the stored C-13
33 PRFlyer : There was a Kallita B747 at Cebu. Just wondering who might have chartered the flight. Could it be carrying the Rubicon Team from SoCal?
34 Post contains links and images trex8 : http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2013/11/13/2003576748 Maybe Manila should ask for some of those Hueys sitting around various Taiwanese
35 Post contains links and images trex8 : http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2013/11/13/2003576748 Maybe Manila should ask for some of those Hueys sitting around various Taiwanese
36 neutrino : Following the Armed Forces of the Philippines' (AFP) request, the Republic of Singapore Air Force (RSAF) have extended the deployment of the second H
37 Devilfish : As described in the "lessons learned" report in the other thread, the logjam would be in the final distribution of relief goods and assistance. There'
38 bennett123 : BBC News are now showing Emirates B777 A6-EFL, (presumably at Cebu). Less images of aircraft at Tacloban though.
39 CX Flyboy : Emirates also had a 747-400F (One of the TNT leased ones) at CEB. I've seen photos of a National Cargo 744F parked next to an El Al 744, Cargo Airline
40 CX Flyboy : Actually is seems as if in the last 24 hours there have been 3 Emirates freighters in CEB (Do they fly anywhere less than multiple times a day?!), als
41 Post contains links and images Devilfish : Photos of the above...and CF C-17 @ ILO..... Denmark and Sweden join..... . http://www.aircargoworld.com/Air-Car...s/2013/11/VolgaDneprIL76TD-big.jpg
42 Confuscius : Spotter's paradise especially for 4-holers. Whose spiffy C-130 with a glossy finish? https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/1395975_1
43 mham001 : That is where the helicopters will shine. We have plenty of experience dropping food. At one time there was a proposal to throw individual packages w
44 Spacepope : Looks like Indonesia
45 Post contains images PRFlyer : Who owns that white tail B742?
46 bennett123 : BBC News yesterday indicate that C17 ZZ177 is on the way as well. Most of these pictures seem to be at Cebu, (apart from heli and tilt rotors). How ar
47 Post contains links bennett123 : www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24954604 This is the latest story. On the news, the number 177 could be seen on the nose.
48 Post contains links and images Devilfish : . http://www.channelnewsasia.com/image...arge16x9/768/432/typhoon-aid29.jpg . https://scontent-a-sjc.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/p480x480/999162_1020116
49 Post contains links and images Devilfish : JSDF on the ground..... . http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-2pZBNEGAqm...apan+Ground+Self+Defense+Force.jpg . http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Lm4R3lrt9_...B8E/_vLn
50 bennett123 : Just been watching BBC News. Latest spot is PAF F27-500F 10669 at Tacloban.
51 COSPN : Note the Huge ramp at CEB in peak of the cold war (1952-1965) CEB was were the US bombers would land after WW3 and "go native" ...most of the USA woul
52 Post contains links and images Devilfish : Good to know that Fokker '69 could still wing it... ... View Large View MediumPhoto © Ignatius Kwee Thailand delivers aid..... . http://d24pg1nxua23
53 CX Flyboy : Thanks for all the photos. Keep them coming!! I see Emirates, Etihad (KLM), Atlas, National and BA have continued to have flights there the last few d
54 YLWbased : I've booked myself on a 5J flight to Iloilo City on Dec 6th, will join the local team to help restore AM radio broadcasting in the northern part of th
55 Post contains links and images Devilfish : A photo of what they set up in Guian..... . http://media.dma.mil/2013/Nov/21/200...977/-1/-1/0/131117-F-AL360-178.JPG http://philippineairspace.blogs
56 mham001 : Isn't it a little late for search and rescue?
57 CX Flyboy : That appears to be a hospital ship. Things like that will be in great demand as there will be lot of people with more relatively minor injuries such
58 crownvic : You seem to be full of useful information!
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