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Frontier A321s?  
User currently offlineFalcon Flyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 1323 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 9478 times:

With the Indigo Partners acquisition appearing to move forward, does anyone think Frontier will follow Spirit and JetBlue in obtaining A321s ?


My definition of cool ? Not trying so hard to be cool.
35 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4244 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (8 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 9329 times:
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A few wags have speculated that F9 will be merged into NK who already have a very successful ULCC model and is -- unlike F9 -- money-making. But, I'm not knowledgeable enough about F9 to know what their high-traffic routes are -- deserving of a 321.

Perhaps Mariner will give some of his sage wisdom to this question.


User currently offlineb757capt From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1366 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 9150 times:

Yes.

The new frontier is going to be more aggressive in achieving higher profits. The 321 is an easy way to do that.



The views written by this user are in no manner the views of my employer and should not be thought as such.
User currently offlinemcoflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8664 posts, RR: 15
Reply 3, posted (8 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 8219 times:

I'd say it would depend on a number of things. Would Frontiers existing routes warrant a A321??? Does Indigo want to finance or do they want to lease??? Would the acquisition of A321's pay off in the end run?? Lots of things to consider when ordering a new a/c. The good news is that their current pilots would need minimal training if Indigo orders the A321 for Frontier.

KH



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlinestrfyr51 From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 1111 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (8 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 7979 times:
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The A321 would do well for f9 shou;d they REQUIRE an A321 sized aircraft.. I thought they were going too small with the A318 and A319 when they went there in the first place and I was proved right, A mix of A319's and A320;s will give them a good mix. for the future, I believe F9 could be a winning company with visionary management. I work with a few of their Ex- Maintenance Controllers and those 3 are 'TOP SHELF".. If Bedford hasn't ruined the rest of their people?? They have a DAMN good chance of making BIG NOISE in the industry..

User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2741 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (8 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 7028 times:

Quoting mcoflyer (Reply 3):
Would Frontiers existing routes warrant a A321???

I don't know that there are that many routes that really 'need' an A321. These big birds are good for carriers that deal with restricted airports, and LGA and DCA are about the only airports as such for F9.

A few years back, it was only UA and F9 on DEN-LGA, and F9 had 3 dailies on the route (and 4 maybe at some points in the summer?). Then as of last year, both DL and WN jumped in and DEN-LGA became clusterf**k, with 4 carriers now and an additional 5-6 daily flights (DL +2, WN +3, UA +1-2), and F9 is now parred down to 2 dailies I believe, choosing not to go head-on with 3 of the 4 largest U.S. carriers here on this particular route. All that being said, maybe under the ULCC model, and with an A321, F9 can go head-on with the gorillas on the route.

DEN-DCA is the other slot controlled airport, and from indications, these 3 dailies are packed to the gills, and big $$$$ for F9, since they only compete with 1 UA daily flight here. This is probably by far the best place F9 could make use of an A321.

Other A321 routes for F9 probably would be DEN-SEA, DEN-SNA, DEN-CUN, and DEN-MCO.

 


User currently offlineluv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12090 posts, RR: 49
Reply 6, posted (8 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 6975 times:

No need unless they use them for the slot restricted airports and as others have pointed out they only serve 2 of those.


You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7052 posts, RR: 13
Reply 7, posted (8 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 6691 times:

Quoting Falcon Flyer (Thread starter):
With the Indigo Partners acquisition appearing to move forward, does anyone think Frontier will follow Spirit and JetBlue in obtaining A321s ?

I think they will make sure they can make some money and then order the A321.

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 1):
A few wags have speculated that F9 will be merged into NK who already have a very successful ULCC model

I strongly disagree. Right now the two companies hate each other mostly as a result of Indigo flipping. NK wouldn't even be interested until F9 is a threat. They are not yet. In 2 or 3 years if F9 is successful it could happen, but right now it makes no sense for NK. Also, F9 is worth nothing so Indigo would make no money until far down the road.


User currently offlinekingcavalier From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 1302 posts, RR: 17
Reply 8, posted (8 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 6443 times:

I don't think the A321 is only needed in slot controlled airports. F9 could certainly use it on VFR routes like DEN to CUN, MCO, FLL. It's certainly cheaper to put more seats into a market with one A321 flight instead of two A319/A320s. F9 does well on these routes with one flight but seem to trash their yields when they try to add additional frequencies. Operating one larger aircraft instead of 2 smaller aircraft certainly reduces costs.

[Edited 2013-11-11 08:05:19]


Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness
User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4244 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (8 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6180 times:
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Quoting point2point (Reply 5):

DEN-DCA is the other slot controlled airport, and from indications, these 3 dailies are packed to the gills, and big $$$$ for F9, since they only compete with 1 UA daily flight here. This is probably by far the best place F9 could make use of an A321.

You're right. Last time I flew F9 DEN-DCA, every seat was filled. UA is using a 757 on the route. So, F9 using a 321 seems sensible.


User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4244 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (8 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6004 times:
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Quoting enilria (Reply 7):
Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 1):A few wags have speculated that F9 will be merged into NK who already have a very successful ULCC model
I strongly disagree. Right now the two companies hate each other mostly as a result of Indigo flipping. NK wouldn't even be interested until F9 is a threat. They are not yet. In 2 or 3 years if F9 is successful it could happen, but right now it makes no sense for NK. Also, F9 is worth nothing so Indigo would make no money until far down the road.

With so many long thin routes, one would think F9 didn't have a business strategy.

But . . . having some success with ILG and TTN -- where so many have failed -- at least proves that someone at F9 goes to church on Sunday.  


User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7052 posts, RR: 13
Reply 11, posted (8 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 5234 times:

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 10):
But . . . having some success with ILG and TTN -- where so many have failed -- at least proves that someone at F9 goes to church on Sunday.

Not sure I agree, those inspirations only came to the F9 folk after BB backed out of active involvement in F9...that's also when F9's fleet plan stopped looking as much like a used car lot. Nevertheless I'm sure he has prayed about it routinely: "Please remove this millstone of failure from around my neck, laid upon me by my own hubris and poor decision making. Please let me find some schmuck to come along receive this bountiful harvest of losses and C-Series jets I ordered while speaking in tongues to that kind airplane salesman."


User currently offlinemcoflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8664 posts, RR: 15
Reply 12, posted (8 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 5165 times:

Quoting point2point (Reply 5):

Can a A321 make it from SNA-DEN????

KH



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25015 posts, RR: 85
Reply 13, posted (8 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 4984 times:
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Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 1):
A few wags have speculated that F9 will be merged into NK who already have a very successful ULCC model and is -- unlike F9 -- money-making.


Franke/Indigo sold their entire holding in Spirit before they bought Frontier. If they wanted to merge the two I think they would have kept Spirit.

A321's? Sure, maybe, good idea, why not? 91% load factors In September seem to indicate a need, at least on some routes.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinerj777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1790 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (8 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 4821 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 13):
Franke/Indigo sold their entire holding in Spirit before they bought Frontier. If they wanted to merge the two I think they would have kept Spirit.

And then we'd have another "What will be the name of the new airline?".... they probably would've kept the Spirit name.... maybe moved the stylized S to the fuselage and slapped the animals on the tails.


User currently offlineluv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12090 posts, RR: 49
Reply 15, posted (8 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 4652 times:

Spirits new frontier airways


You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2741 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (8 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 4652 times:

Quoting mcoflyer (Reply 12):
Can a A321 make it from SNA-DEN????

The A321s are being used to fly cross-country - BOS-LAX, NYC-LAX, BOS-SFO, NYC-SFO, so I would think that they can go DEN-SNA. Even though IIRC, SNA has a short runway, since it's going eastward and with the winds, I don't think that there's any problems there. And of course, with DEN and their 16,000 ft runway..... that can get a bird to just about do anything that the bird can do......

So yes, I would think (unless someone can inform otherwise) that the A321s could be technically operated with no penalties here, as well as handle this high capacity route.

 


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25015 posts, RR: 85
Reply 17, posted (8 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 4561 times:
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Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 10):
With so many long thin routes, one would think F9 didn't have a business strategy.

There are not that many and several of the long thin routes - or the longest and the thinnest - are paid for by Apple Vacations. DEN-PUJ, e.g..

  

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinesunking737 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2038 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (8 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 4286 times:

It would seem to me it would be better to fly more flights with A319/320's then run out and buy/lease larger a/c. Next thing someone will say F9 needs to fly 777/787 on their routes.


Just an MSPAVGEEK
User currently offlineluv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12090 posts, RR: 49
Reply 19, posted (8 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 4161 times:

Its great to run full flights on smaller aircraft and maximize your revenue, adding more seats means more chances of discounting to fill the increased seats.


You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineFRNT787 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1319 posts, RR: 15
Reply 20, posted (8 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 4103 times:

Quoting sunking737 (Reply 18):

Considering the industry trend favoring the larger models of narrow body aircraft, why is is so shocking Frontier could use, say, 10 A321s (especially given they are the same family)?



"We have a right to fail, because failure makes us grow" --Glenn Beck
User currently offlinemcoflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8664 posts, RR: 15
Reply 21, posted (8 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3770 times:

Wiki says 8400ft but lets take a few things into consideration. I imagine with 27K of fuel and full payload it could probably do it with IAE engines. I'd have to hear from A321 drivers to confirm my numbers. Knowing Frontier, they'd probably opt for GE engines.

KH



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlineFrontier14 From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 187 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (8 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3579 times:

Quoting FRNT787 (Reply 20):
Considering the industry trend favoring the larger models of narrow body aircraft, why is is so shocking Frontier could use, say, 10 A321s (especially given they are the same family

I would expect this to be a consideration also. Given that Indigo's European investment Wizz has just changed part of an existing order of 320s to 321s. But should Indigo choose to do so for their Frontier project, then they will have to open up talks with their pilots. As I understand the current pilot compensation contract, it only covers flying rates up to 199 psgrs.

Frontier 14


User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4244 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (8 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3509 times:
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Quoting mcoflyer (Reply 12):
Can a A321 make it from SNA-DEN????

USAirways owns 90 of them and they criss-cross the country. Oct 5th I flew CLT-SAN on a US 321. This coming Saturday I'll fly PHL-LAX.

Now I'm assuming if they can fly coast-to-coast, then they can make SNA-DEN at 1/3 the distance.  


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3058 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (8 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3380 times:

I think TTN recent morph needs to be factored into any A321 lease or acquisition. I don't think TTN runway(s) are capable of handling the A321?


Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
25 Post contains images mariner : Acquisition costs are part of it, of course. Frontier had decided only to acquire A320's (other than the Neo order), but the drop lease rates on the
26 Post contains images kgaiflyer : Best reply in the thread, so far.
27 mcoflyer : I mean with SNA short runways. LAX, PHL, and CLT all have runways that are longer than the one at SNA. Runways 1L/19R are 5,701ft in length, and that
28 Post contains links mariner : Oh. I couldn't work out what it had to do with the topic - Frontier and the possibility of A321's - which at least one analyst thinks will happen: ht
29 Post contains links and images point2point : I have to agree That being said, I have to give BB credit in that he did set out what he wanted to do, and that was to eventually sell of F9..... but
30 VC10DC10 : Sorry to be thick, but is BB some sort of religious enthusiast?
31 luv2fly : Sorry to be thick, but is BB some sort of religious enthusiast? Totally!
32 Post contains links GentFromAlaska : As time allows here is Undercover Boss Frontier Airlines episode http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFBx88q2gR8 BB faith enters the episode at three minu
33 mariner : Exactly. If it wasn't for Bryan Bedford there wouldn't be a Frontier airlines. It would be long gone, swallowed by Southwest. I have no idea what his
34 VC10DC10 : It wasn't my intent to beat him. I just didn't know about that aspect of his personality. Swallowed, or more likely just left for dead on the slopes.
35 mariner : It wasn't directed at you, but at the earlier posts. mariner
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