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Frontier A321s?  
User currently offlineFalcon Flyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 1327 posts, RR: 0
Posted (11 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 9528 times:

With the Indigo Partners acquisition appearing to move forward, does anyone think Frontier will follow Spirit and JetBlue in obtaining A321s ?


My definition of cool ? Not trying so hard to be cool.
35 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4299 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (11 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 9379 times:
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A few wags have speculated that F9 will be merged into NK who already have a very successful ULCC model and is -- unlike F9 -- money-making. But, I'm not knowledgeable enough about F9 to know what their high-traffic routes are -- deserving of a 321.

Perhaps Mariner will give some of his sage wisdom to this question.


User currently offlineb757capt From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1392 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (11 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 9200 times:

Yes.

The new frontier is going to be more aggressive in achieving higher profits. The 321 is an easy way to do that.



The views written by this user are in no manner the views of my employer and should not be thought as such.
User currently offlinemcoflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8683 posts, RR: 16
Reply 3, posted (11 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 8269 times:

I'd say it would depend on a number of things. Would Frontiers existing routes warrant a A321??? Does Indigo want to finance or do they want to lease??? Would the acquisition of A321's pay off in the end run?? Lots of things to consider when ordering a new a/c. The good news is that their current pilots would need minimal training if Indigo orders the A321 for Frontier.

KH



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlinestrfyr51 From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 1294 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (11 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 8029 times:
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The A321 would do well for f9 shou;d they REQUIRE an A321 sized aircraft.. I thought they were going too small with the A318 and A319 when they went there in the first place and I was proved right, A mix of A319's and A320;s will give them a good mix. for the future, I believe F9 could be a winning company with visionary management. I work with a few of their Ex- Maintenance Controllers and those 3 are 'TOP SHELF".. If Bedford hasn't ruined the rest of their people?? They have a DAMN good chance of making BIG NOISE in the industry..

User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2764 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (11 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 7078 times:

Quoting mcoflyer (Reply 3):
Would Frontiers existing routes warrant a A321???

I don't know that there are that many routes that really 'need' an A321. These big birds are good for carriers that deal with restricted airports, and LGA and DCA are about the only airports as such for F9.

A few years back, it was only UA and F9 on DEN-LGA, and F9 had 3 dailies on the route (and 4 maybe at some points in the summer?). Then as of last year, both DL and WN jumped in and DEN-LGA became clusterf**k, with 4 carriers now and an additional 5-6 daily flights (DL +2, WN +3, UA +1-2), and F9 is now parred down to 2 dailies I believe, choosing not to go head-on with 3 of the 4 largest U.S. carriers here on this particular route. All that being said, maybe under the ULCC model, and with an A321, F9 can go head-on with the gorillas on the route.

DEN-DCA is the other slot controlled airport, and from indications, these 3 dailies are packed to the gills, and big $$$$ for F9, since they only compete with 1 UA daily flight here. This is probably by far the best place F9 could make use of an A321.

Other A321 routes for F9 probably would be DEN-SEA, DEN-SNA, DEN-CUN, and DEN-MCO.

 


User currently offlineluv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12118 posts, RR: 49
Reply 6, posted (11 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 7025 times:
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No need unless they use them for the slot restricted airports and as others have pointed out they only serve 2 of those.


You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7308 posts, RR: 14
Reply 7, posted (11 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 6741 times:

Quoting Falcon Flyer (Thread starter):
With the Indigo Partners acquisition appearing to move forward, does anyone think Frontier will follow Spirit and JetBlue in obtaining A321s ?

I think they will make sure they can make some money and then order the A321.

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 1):
A few wags have speculated that F9 will be merged into NK who already have a very successful ULCC model

I strongly disagree. Right now the two companies hate each other mostly as a result of Indigo flipping. NK wouldn't even be interested until F9 is a threat. They are not yet. In 2 or 3 years if F9 is successful it could happen, but right now it makes no sense for NK. Also, F9 is worth nothing so Indigo would make no money until far down the road.


User currently offlinekingcavalier From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 1311 posts, RR: 18
Reply 8, posted (11 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 6493 times:

I don't think the A321 is only needed in slot controlled airports. F9 could certainly use it on VFR routes like DEN to CUN, MCO, FLL. It's certainly cheaper to put more seats into a market with one A321 flight instead of two A319/A320s. F9 does well on these routes with one flight but seem to trash their yields when they try to add additional frequencies. Operating one larger aircraft instead of 2 smaller aircraft certainly reduces costs.

[Edited 2013-11-11 08:05:19]


Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness
User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4299 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (11 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 6230 times:
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Quoting point2point (Reply 5):

DEN-DCA is the other slot controlled airport, and from indications, these 3 dailies are packed to the gills, and big $$$$ for F9, since they only compete with 1 UA daily flight here. This is probably by far the best place F9 could make use of an A321.

You're right. Last time I flew F9 DEN-DCA, every seat was filled. UA is using a 757 on the route. So, F9 using a 321 seems sensible.


User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4299 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (11 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 6054 times:
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Quoting enilria (Reply 7):
Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 1):A few wags have speculated that F9 will be merged into NK who already have a very successful ULCC model
I strongly disagree. Right now the two companies hate each other mostly as a result of Indigo flipping. NK wouldn't even be interested until F9 is a threat. They are not yet. In 2 or 3 years if F9 is successful it could happen, but right now it makes no sense for NK. Also, F9 is worth nothing so Indigo would make no money until far down the road.

With so many long thin routes, one would think F9 didn't have a business strategy.

But . . . having some success with ILG and TTN -- where so many have failed -- at least proves that someone at F9 goes to church on Sunday.  


User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7308 posts, RR: 14
Reply 11, posted (11 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 5284 times:

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 10):
But . . . having some success with ILG and TTN -- where so many have failed -- at least proves that someone at F9 goes to church on Sunday.

Not sure I agree, those inspirations only came to the F9 folk after BB backed out of active involvement in F9...that's also when F9's fleet plan stopped looking as much like a used car lot. Nevertheless I'm sure he has prayed about it routinely: "Please remove this millstone of failure from around my neck, laid upon me by my own hubris and poor decision making. Please let me find some schmuck to come along receive this bountiful harvest of losses and C-Series jets I ordered while speaking in tongues to that kind airplane salesman."


User currently offlinemcoflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8683 posts, RR: 16
Reply 12, posted (11 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 5215 times:

Quoting point2point (Reply 5):

Can a A321 make it from SNA-DEN????

KH



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25405 posts, RR: 86
Reply 13, posted (11 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 5034 times:
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Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 1):
A few wags have speculated that F9 will be merged into NK who already have a very successful ULCC model and is -- unlike F9 -- money-making.


Franke/Indigo sold their entire holding in Spirit before they bought Frontier. If they wanted to merge the two I think they would have kept Spirit.

A321's? Sure, maybe, good idea, why not? 91% load factors In September seem to indicate a need, at least on some routes.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently onlinerj777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1861 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (11 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4871 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 13):
Franke/Indigo sold their entire holding in Spirit before they bought Frontier. If they wanted to merge the two I think they would have kept Spirit.

And then we'd have another "What will be the name of the new airline?".... they probably would've kept the Spirit name.... maybe moved the stylized S to the fuselage and slapped the animals on the tails.


User currently offlineluv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12118 posts, RR: 49
Reply 15, posted (11 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4702 times:
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Spirits new frontier airways


You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2764 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (11 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4702 times:

Quoting mcoflyer (Reply 12):
Can a A321 make it from SNA-DEN????

The A321s are being used to fly cross-country - BOS-LAX, NYC-LAX, BOS-SFO, NYC-SFO, so I would think that they can go DEN-SNA. Even though IIRC, SNA has a short runway, since it's going eastward and with the winds, I don't think that there's any problems there. And of course, with DEN and their 16,000 ft runway..... that can get a bird to just about do anything that the bird can do......

So yes, I would think (unless someone can inform otherwise) that the A321s could be technically operated with no penalties here, as well as handle this high capacity route.

 


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25405 posts, RR: 86
Reply 17, posted (11 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4611 times:
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Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 10):
With so many long thin routes, one would think F9 didn't have a business strategy.

There are not that many and several of the long thin routes - or the longest and the thinnest - are paid for by Apple Vacations. DEN-PUJ, e.g..

  

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinesunking737 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2054 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (11 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4336 times:

It would seem to me it would be better to fly more flights with A319/320's then run out and buy/lease larger a/c. Next thing someone will say F9 needs to fly 777/787 on their routes.


Just an MSPAVGEEK
User currently offlineluv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12118 posts, RR: 49
Reply 19, posted (11 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4211 times:
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Its great to run full flights on smaller aircraft and maximize your revenue, adding more seats means more chances of discounting to fill the increased seats.


You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineFRNT787 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1324 posts, RR: 15
Reply 20, posted (11 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4153 times:

Quoting sunking737 (Reply 18):

Considering the industry trend favoring the larger models of narrow body aircraft, why is is so shocking Frontier could use, say, 10 A321s (especially given they are the same family)?



"We have a right to fail, because failure makes us grow" --Glenn Beck
User currently offlinemcoflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8683 posts, RR: 16
Reply 21, posted (11 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3820 times:

Wiki says 8400ft but lets take a few things into consideration. I imagine with 27K of fuel and full payload it could probably do it with IAE engines. I'd have to hear from A321 drivers to confirm my numbers. Knowing Frontier, they'd probably opt for GE engines.

KH



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlineFrontier14 From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 233 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (11 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3629 times:

Quoting FRNT787 (Reply 20):
Considering the industry trend favoring the larger models of narrow body aircraft, why is is so shocking Frontier could use, say, 10 A321s (especially given they are the same family

I would expect this to be a consideration also. Given that Indigo's European investment Wizz has just changed part of an existing order of 320s to 321s. But should Indigo choose to do so for their Frontier project, then they will have to open up talks with their pilots. As I understand the current pilot compensation contract, it only covers flying rates up to 199 psgrs.

Frontier 14


User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4299 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (11 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3559 times:
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Quoting mcoflyer (Reply 12):
Can a A321 make it from SNA-DEN????

USAirways owns 90 of them and they criss-cross the country. Oct 5th I flew CLT-SAN on a US 321. This coming Saturday I'll fly PHL-LAX.

Now I'm assuming if they can fly coast-to-coast, then they can make SNA-DEN at 1/3 the distance.  


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3187 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (11 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3430 times:

I think TTN recent morph needs to be factored into any A321 lease or acquisition. I don't think TTN runway(s) are capable of handling the A321?


Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25405 posts, RR: 86
Reply 25, posted (11 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3585 times:
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Quoting FRNT787 (Reply 20):
Considering the industry trend favoring the larger models of narrow body aircraft, why is is so shocking Frontier could use, say, 10 A321s (especially given they are the same family)?

Acquisition costs are part of it, of course. Frontier had decided only to acquire A320's (other than the Neo order), but the drop lease rates on the A319 has caused them to look at the A319 with fresh eyes.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 24):
I think TTN recent morph needs to be factored into any A321 lease or acquisition. I don't think TTN runway(s) are capable of handling the A321?

I doubt Frontier will use the A320 at TTN, either, barring an (unlikely?) extension to the runway. TTN may become its own little universe of A319's  

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4299 posts, RR: 1
Reply 26, posted (11 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3503 times:
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Quoting enilria (Reply 11):
Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 10):But . . . having some success with ILG and TTN -- where so many have failed -- at least proves that someone at F9 goes to church on Sunday.

Not sure I agree, those inspirations only came to the F9 folk after BB backed out of active involvement in F9...that's also when F9's fleet plan stopped looking as much like a used car lot. Nevertheless I'm sure he has prayed about it routinely: "Please remove this millstone of failure from around my neck, laid upon me by my own hubris and poor decision making. Please let me find some schmuck to come along receive this bountiful harvest of losses and C-Series jets I ordered while speaking in tongues to that kind airplane salesman."

Best reply in the thread, so far.   


User currently offlinemcoflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8683 posts, RR: 16
Reply 27, posted (11 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2749 times:

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 23):

USAirways owns 90 of them and they criss-cross the country. Oct 5th I flew CLT-SAN on a US 321. This coming Saturday I'll fly PHL-LAX.

Now I'm assuming if they can fly coast-to-coast, then they can make SNA-DEN at 1/3 the distance.

I mean with SNA short runways. LAX, PHL, and CLT all have runways that are longer than the one at SNA. Runways 1L/19R are 5,701ft in length, and that is the longest runway that SNA has.

KH



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25405 posts, RR: 86
Reply 28, posted (11 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2674 times:
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Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 26):
Best reply in the thread, so far.

Oh.

I couldn't work out what it had to do with the topic - Frontier and the possibility of A321's - which at least one analyst thinks will happen:

http://www.fool.com/investing/genera...-ready-to-fly-for-a-new-owner.aspx

"To fix these cost issues, I expect Frontier to shift its fleet decisively toward larger aircraft like the Airbus A320 and A321, rather than the A319 that currently makes up around two-thirds of Frontier's fleet."

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2764 posts, RR: 1
Reply 29, posted (11 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2194 times:

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 26):
Quoting enilria (Reply 11):
Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 10):But . . . having some success with ILG and TTN -- where so many have failed -- at least proves that someone at F9 goes to church on Sunday.

Not sure I agree, those inspirations only came to the F9 folk after BB backed out of active involvement in F9...that's also when F9's fleet plan stopped looking as much like a used car lot. Nevertheless I'm sure he has prayed about it routinely: "Please remove this millstone of failure from around my neck, laid upon me by my own hubris and poor decision making. Please let me find some schmuck to come along receive this bountiful harvest of losses and C-Series jets I ordered while speaking in tongues to that kind airplane salesman."

Best reply in the thread, so far.   

I have to agree   

That being said, I have to give BB credit in that he did set out what he wanted to do, and that was to eventually sell of F9..... but probably not a a price where total expense is exceeded to show a profit........ BB did however keep this airline alive, and still a good number of folks have jobs there (we'll see what the future brings here) so if it's his prayer that accomplished this, all the more to him.

Quoting mcoflyer (Reply 27):
SNA. Runways 1L/19R are 5,701ft in length, and that is the longest runway that SNA has.

Okay, per this site

http://planes.findthebest.com/q/231/...e-Airbus-A321-Jet-need-to-take-off

it says

The Airbus A321 needs a runway that is 5,600 ft long to takeoff at MTOW (Maximum Takeoff Weight). The A321 needs a runway that is 5,052 ft long to land at MLW (Maximum Landing Weight).

I don't know how accurate or source of this info, but if this is true, then the A321 should have no trouble with SNA. Wiki states 8400 ft. for the A321, but somehow I think this is incorrect, because the numbers for the other models wouldn't allow any Airbii to operate at SNA, and they do operate, so.......

 


User currently offlineVC10DC10 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 1036 posts, RR: 3
Reply 30, posted (11 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1553 times:

Quoting point2point (Reply 29):

That being said, I have to give BB credit in that he did set out what he wanted to do, and that was to eventually sell of F9..... but probably not a a price where total expense is exceeded to show a profit........ BB did however keep this airline alive, and still a good number of folks have jobs there (we'll see what the future brings here) so if it's his prayer that accomplished this, all the more to him.

Sorry to be thick, but is BB some sort of religious enthusiast?


User currently offlineluv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12118 posts, RR: 49
Reply 31, posted (11 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1542 times:
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Sorry to be thick, but is BB some sort of religious enthusiast?

Totally!



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3187 posts, RR: 1
Reply 32, posted (11 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1512 times:

Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 30):
Sorry to be thick, but is BB some sort of religious enthusiast?
As time allows here is Undercover Boss Frontier Airlines episode http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFBx88q2gR8 BB faith enters the episode at three minute thirty seconds into the episode.

Sue the F9 appearance drill sergeant is a hoot.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25405 posts, RR: 86
Reply 33, posted (11 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1213 times:
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Quoting point2point (Reply 29):
BB did however keep this airline alive, and still a good number of folks have jobs there (we'll see what the future brings here) so if it's his prayer that accomplished this, all the more to him.

Exactly. If it wasn't for Bryan Bedford there wouldn't be a Frontier airlines. It would be long gone, swallowed by Southwest.

I have no idea what his well-known Christian views have to do with this and - as a non-believer, an atheist, I suppose - I find that a bizarre stick to beat him with, quite apart from the fact that any A321 decision will have nothing to do with him.

mariner

[Edited 2013-11-13 16:29:15]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineVC10DC10 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 1036 posts, RR: 3
Reply 34, posted (11 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1115 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 33):

I have no idea what his well-known Christian views have to do with this and - as a non-believer, an atheist, I suppose - I find that a bizarre stick to beat him with, quite apart from the fact that any A321 decision will have nothing to do with him.

It wasn't my intent to beat him. I just didn't know about that aspect of his personality.

Quoting mariner (Reply 33):
It would be long gone, swallowed by Southwest.

Swallowed, or more likely just left for dead on the slopes.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25405 posts, RR: 86
Reply 35, posted (11 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1055 times:
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Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 34):
It wasn't my intent to beat him. I just didn't know about that aspect of his personality.

It wasn't directed at you, but at the earlier posts.

mariner



aeternum nauta
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