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Flybe Cuts 500 More Jobs  
User currently offlinescouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3398 posts, RR: 9
Posted (1 year 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 10751 times:

UK airline Flybe is cutting 500 further jobs out of a remaining workforce or 2700 this is part of the ongoing turn around plan:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-24895428

Question that I have is does everyone think that they're going to be able to survive long-term independant or will they end up merging or being taken over as they're just a tiddler compared to BA, U2 and FR?

34 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineQANTASvJet From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2012, 79 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 10642 times:

Size isn't really the issue - BA couldn't succeed in the UK regional market either. Indeed FlyBe is partly an attempt to reverse the BA failure. bmi regional is also cutting back. The winners are the train operators.

User currently offlineTC957 From UK - England, joined May 2012, 972 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 10609 times:

Yeah, this has just come through on the travel agents news links as well.
BE have a new CEO and senior management team now, whilst it's good they inherited a profit figure it'll be interesting to see their strategy going forward.
I'm sure the armchair airline CEO's amongst us will have a few ideas !
Looks to me like that huge E175 order they put in a while back and grand plans to be the biggest European regional airline won't be upmost in their future thoughts now. I'll be surprised if they take on any more of the E175's and even lease out the ones they have now, since the LGW routes are going next year.


User currently offlineaireuropeuk733 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 978 posts, RR: 10
Reply 3, posted (1 year 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 10581 times:

Quoting scouseflyer (Thread starter):
will they end up merging or being taken over as they're just a tiddler compared to BA, U2 and FR?

BA owns a small percentage of Flybe that was acquired when Flybe took over the loss making BA Connect.

I have flown with them on many occasions for business trips and apart from the early morning/late evening flights the loan factors are pretty poor (8 seats of a Dash 8 and 14 seats on a E175!)

AE733



It's nice to fly with friends
User currently offlineteme82 From Finland, joined Mar 2007, 1607 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 10152 times:
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Quoting aireuropeuk733 (Reply 3):
BA owns a small percentage of Flybe that was acquired when Flybe took over the loss making BA Connect.

If I'm not mistaken AY has similar size share of FlyBe. I hear that FlyBe Nordic is doing ok.



Flying high and low
User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19243 posts, RR: 52
Reply 5, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 10131 times:

This should be of interest regarding BE and average fares: http://www.aviationeconomics.com/New...cuts---which-routes-are-at-risk?#!


"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlinebmibaby737 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 1820 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 9988 times:

Quoting scouseflyer (Thread starter):
Question that I have is does everyone think that they're going to be able to survive long-term independant or will they end up merging or being taken over as they're just a tiddler compared to BA, U2 and FR?

Well in that news link you posted, it says "Pre-tax profits were £13.8m for the six months to 30 September, compared with a loss of £1.6m a year earlier." so it already seems they're beginning to do the right things for the airline to stay afloat. I can't ever see them merging, their business plans are just too different when compared to BA, U2, and FR - and besides, as far as I'm aware BA have written off their investment with Flybe, they've no interest in extending it.

There's room for Flybe, they just need a clear vision and they're getting there.


User currently offlineSelseyBill From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2013, 197 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 9141 times:

Quoting QANTASvJet (Reply 1):
Size isn't really the issue - BA couldn't succeed in the UK regional market either. Indeed FlyBe is partly an attempt to reverse the BA failure. bmi regional is also cutting back. The winners are the train operators.

Correct.

Which given some of the eye-watering domestic rail fares evident, it is rather surprising aviation isn't making more of an impact on domestic non-London UK sectors, where they offer significantly lower fares and much quicker journey times.


User currently offlineLGWGate49 From Sudan, joined exactly 5 years ago today! , 139 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 8769 times:

I have a question about the LGW move. If the routes are loss making, why continue a full service through the winter? If not then why not continue them?

In their defense I do realize that LGW does not incentivize smaller aircraft in their landing fees, and am not sure when that change happened. Plus do they have to use slots in order not to lose them before U2 takes them over?

If neither, and it was purely a cash grab for short term gain, then it shows what trouble they're in. Does today's announced profit include monies U2 paid for the LGW slots?



Look for the ridiculous in everything, and you will find it
User currently offlinebmibaby737 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 1820 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 8472 times:

Quoting LGWGate49 (Reply 8):
I have a question about the LGW move. If the routes are loss making, why continue a full service through the winter? If not then why not continue them?

I believe you answered your own question...

Quoting LGWGate49 (Reply 8):
Plus do they have to use slots in order not to lose them before U2 takes them over?
Quoting LGWGate49 (Reply 8):
If neither, and it was purely a cash grab for short term gain, then it shows what trouble they're in. Does today's announced profit include monies U2 paid for the LGW slots?

In regards to this, the 7 routes into LGW have not made a single profit in the year leading up to the sale, and in the presentation released today they said the routes did not even cover the cost of operating the flight, let alone the aircraft associated costs.


User currently onlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 3024 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 8403 times:
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Quoting SelseyBill (Reply 7):
Correct.

Which given some of the eye-watering domestic rail fares evident, it is rather surprising aviation isn't making more of an impact on domestic non-London UK sectors, where they offer significantly lower fares and much quicker journey times.

Na the winner on cross country domestic and especially business traffic is and has remained the self steered four tired contraption called the car for the last 40 years !
Trains don't even register.

The train is okay from the regions to/from London and to some extent along the corridor from Liverpool through to Leeds/York.

Or from Bristol Manchester or Sheffield to/from Birmingham New Street.

All other routes are exhausting time consuming and inconvenient.

Add to the fact that any journey is also likely to include a bus section (completely unreliable outside the GLA since the 80s deregulation!) or expensive cab !

Try traveling from Norwich to Manchester on the train.

Flybe really need to go out and SELL the domestic hub and spoke concept across Manchester more effectively !

The concept is excellent and real time saver. They operate three waves connecting Inverness/Glasgow/Edinburgh and Aberdeen, Belfast, Isle of Man, Exeter, Newquay, Southampton, Jersey/Guernsey and Norwich (Loganair franchise) or any combination over Manchester. Time-wise this is unbeatable by any other mode.


User currently offlineSelseyBill From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2013, 197 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 7424 times:

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 10):
Na the winner on cross country domestic and especially business traffic is and has remained the self steered four tired contraption called the car for the last 40 years !
Trains don't even register.

Agree with your sentiment, but with over 1.5M passenger journeys pa I wouldn't say the 'cross country trains' network doesn't 'register'.........


User currently onlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 3024 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 7304 times:
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Quoting SelseyBill (Reply 11):
Agree with your sentiment, but with over 1.5M passenger journeys pa I wouldn't say the 'cross country trains' network doesn't 'register'…......

That is small fry really it some around 2% of journeys


User currently offlinewozza1975 From UK - England, joined Aug 2013, 8 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 7053 times:

Flybe get slammed for their customer service, just look at Skytrax. If they put more effort in surely they will gain more customers. I live in Jersey and most people hate them and will avoid where possible which from a small island doesn't happen often.

User currently offlinebmibaby737 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 1820 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 6638 times:

Quoting wozza1975 (Reply 13):
Flybe get slammed for their customer service, just look at Skytrax.

I'm sorry, but any airline on there is made out to be evil! Hardly great evidence to support them having awful customer service! Granted though, if the airline sorted out its reliability (Q400 in particular) it would be a hell of a lot more popular...


User currently offlineTC957 From UK - England, joined May 2012, 972 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 6364 times:

Quoting wozza1975 (Reply 13):

I've heard this from colleagues over in Guernsey as well. Given a choice between BE and GR it's GR every time. Hope these staff cuts don't come in their customer services depts.
I use the SOU - MAN service a couple of times a year, been on near empty flights and others that have been totally fully booked. A smart regional airline should adjust demand to supply accordingly, as oddly the near empty flights were on E95's and the full ones on the Q400.


User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5903 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 5831 times:

Quoting bmibaby737 (Reply 9):
the 7 routes into LGW have not made a single profit in the year leading up to the sale, and in the presentation released today they said the routes did not even cover the cost of operating the flight

I was about to ask how Gatwick-Guernsey could possibly lose money (other than maybe sheer incompetence) as there is no LCC competition, but...

Quoting TC957 (Reply 15):
I've heard this from colleagues over in Guernsey as well. Given a choice between BE and GR it's GR every time

I think you just answered it!

Incidentally, I heard from friends in Jersey that BA, SI or even EZY get their business over BE.



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11686 posts, RR: 60
Reply 17, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 5555 times:

After Phase 1 & 2 cost cutting has been executed 61 flights on their network still do not cover the cost of operation. Which begs the question how many didn't before Phase 1 & 2, and how did management seemingly sleepwalk into this situation.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 10):
Flybe really need to go out and SELL the domestic hub and spoke concept across Manchester more effectively !

I'm not convinced this can work now or long term in combination with duplicated P2P routes avoiding the hub.

Quoting bmibaby737 (Reply 6):
I can't ever see them merging, their business plans are just too different when compared to BA, U2, and FR

A number of key positions are now controlled by former easyJet directors/execs, there could well be more overlap than you may think.


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlinebendewire From UK - England, joined May 2011, 62 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 4424 times:

The biggest problem with UK regional flying is APD (advance passenger duty) this really cripples regional airlines when trying o compete with trains or buses. This is a particular nasty TAX which really sets to destroy a comprehensive hub and spoke operation, which regionals survive on. This is also killing jobs in regional areas as international travel is priced far to high if you live/work in West Country or other areas where there are no international flights, but hey TAX is loved by the tree huggers so thats all right then

User currently offlinenighthawk From UK - Scotland, joined Sep 2001, 5178 posts, RR: 33
Reply 19, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days ago) and read 4159 times:

Quoting bendewire (Reply 18):
This is a particular nasty TAX which really sets to destroy a comprehensive hub and spoke operation

why does it set to destroy a hub and spoke destination?

Correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't APD paid based on the final destination, and not per flight. i.e if you fly EDI-MAN-BFS you would pay the same amount of tax as you would flying EDI-BFS non-stop. APD does indeed make it very difficult to run an airline in the UK, but it doesn't penalise against the hub and spoke operation any more than it does P2P.



That'll teach you
User currently offlinemozart From Luxembourg, joined Aug 2003, 2193 posts, RR: 13
Reply 20, posted (1 year 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3583 times:

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 10):
The concept is excellent and real time saver. They operate three waves connecting Inverness/Glasgow/Edinburgh and Aberdeen, Belfast, Isle of Man, Exeter, Newquay, Southampton, Jersey/Guernsey and Norwich (Loganair franchise) or any combination over Manchester. Time-wise this is unbeatable by any other mode.

But how many people are there going from Belfast to Norwich or from Inverness to Exeter?

This is a serious question. I am not at all familiar with travel patterns in the UK outside of London. What "type" of passengers travel between regional centres, by either means of transport? Civil servants? Private companies, but which? VFR?

Actually, I always wondered why Manchester was such an important airport, with mainline flights from many (most?) European airlines and a decent presence of longhaul carriers. "Many people live there", sure, but the metropolitan area around Manchester does not have many more inhabitants than Valencia and is smaller than Naples, both of which do not see such a big airport with such a "premium" airline mix and connections to so many destinations.

I realise that I am completely ignorant of what is going on in the UK outside of London which is what foreigners like me know. We even have trouble imagining what the economic "texture" is outside of London. (I hope I won't get flamed for this much ignorance. I'll accept it from people who are as knowledgeable about regional traffic patterns in the UK as they are about travel patterns in France, Germany, and Switzerland, which are the countries that I could explain to foreigners).


User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11686 posts, RR: 60
Reply 21, posted (1 year 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3429 times:

Quoting bendewire (Reply 18):

The biggest problem with UK regional flying is APD (advance passenger duty) this really cripples regional airlines when trying o compete with trains or buses.

It does depend on the carrier and their business model. A premium carrier like Eastern feels the effect of APD (Air Passenger Duty) less than LCCs like FlyBe, because it makes up a higher proportion of the overall fare.

Quoting bendewire (Reply 18):
This is a particular nasty TAX which really sets to destroy a comprehensive hub and spoke operation, which regionals survive on.

I disagree, no UK regional relies on hub and spoke in the UK. There are connections offered and FlyBe has a hub operation, but it is more by default and I would not say they are reliant on it. Also:

Quoting nighthawk (Reply 19):
Correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't APD paid based on the final destination, and not per flight. i.e if you fly EDI-MAN-BFS you would pay the same amount of tax as you would flying EDI-BFS non-stop.

Correct, APD is levied on the destination traveled to, not individual sectors.

Quoting mozart (Reply 20):
But how many people are there going from Belfast to Norwich or from Inverness to Exeter?

This is a serious question. I am not at all familiar with travel patterns in the UK outside of London. What "type" of passengers travel between regional centres, by either means of transport? Civil servants? Private companies, but which? VFR?

Generally speaking you have a broad mix of passenger types on most flights, but it does vary from route to route. The UK is comprised of diverse regions with surprisingly different economies and geographic challenges which affect the propensity to fly greatly.

Quoting mozart (Reply 20):
Actually, I always wondered why Manchester was such an important airport, with mainline flights from many (most?) European airlines and a decent presence of longhaul carriers. "Many people live there", sure, but the metropolitan area around Manchester does not have many more inhabitants than Valencia and is smaller than Naples, both of which do not see such a big airport with such a "premium" airline mix and connections to so many destinations.

MAN has a huge and (to some) surprisingly affluent catchment area. Around 15 million people live within an hour of MAN, a good three times that of Naples and six times that of Valencia. To all intensive purposes, MAN is 'England North' whilst the London airports are 'England South', it's total useful catchment area is something like 20 million people.


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlinestarrymarkb From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2011, 167 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3427 times:

With Manchester you have a population of 7 million within easy driving/rail distance. Liverpool (metro area - 2million) and Leeds (metro area 2m) are both within about 1 hour's drive of Manchester Airport. That's about the same as Greater London. Manchester also has direct Motorway and Rail access with at least hourly services to much of Northern England

User currently offlinemozart From Luxembourg, joined Aug 2003, 2193 posts, RR: 13
Reply 23, posted (1 year 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3225 times:

In other news, FlyBe's largest shareholder has sold all its stakes. It held 48.5% of the shares.

Quoting starrymarkb (Reply 22):

With Manchester you have a population of 7 million within easy driving/rail distance. Liverpool (metro area - 2million) and Leeds (metro area 2m) are both within about 1 hour's drive of Manchester Airport. That's about the same as Greater London. Manchester also has direct Motorway and Rail access with at least hourly services to much of Northern England

That's interesting - but it's just the "there are many people" argument. What is their reason to fly? Sure, there is always a "base load" of people going on vacation, to see their families in other parts of the country/world, etc. But that is not enough to fill a large airport and many planes, especially not more business-oriented regional routes such as the ones FlyBe operates on the UK regional routes. I know what drives Aberdeen traffic (oil), Edinburgh (financial services, public services), London (everything related to being one of the world's economic and financial hubs, a large nation's capital, a capital of arts, fashion, plus the hub of one of the world's largest intercontinental airlines). But what drives MAN traffic? Is this like Dusseldorf or Stuttgart with many export-oriented manufacturing companies whose employees travel al over the globe? Is it like Barcelone with a large number of tourists on top of a strong local economy?


User currently offlineQANTASvJet From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2012, 79 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3191 times:

Quoting mozart (Reply 23):
That's interesting - but it's just the "there are many people" argument. What is their reason to fly? Sure, there is always a "base load" of people going on vacation, to see their families in other parts of the country/world, etc. But that is not enough to fill a large airport and many planes, especially not more business-oriented regional routes such as the ones FlyBe operates on the UK regional routes.

As with Gatwick, most Manchester traffic is people going away on holiday. Britain is cold and wet, we get several weeks holiday a year, we are reasonably prosperous, and we live on a small island. Consequence: we fly away on holiday a lot, mainly to lie on beaches and get drunk in the evenings. Of course in addition, there is business travel, and there are inbound tourists, but they are small in comparison.


25 rutankrd : The regional similarities with the Ruhr are apt. Manchester and the North West of England economy remains an important manufacturing warehousing and
26 mozart : rutankrd - Thank you very much. A great intro into a question which has interested me since 25 years (I have lived in the UK several times since then
27 QANTASvJet : I wish you were right. But take a look at Table 2.1 of the 2012 CAA Passenger Survey. It will show you the number of passengers handled by Manchester
28 peterinlisbon : I know people that live in Glasgow and Edinburgh that drive down to Manchester and leave the car there if they find direct flights that they don't hav
29 starrymarkb : Indeed - Rather then use BE - It's often cheaper and faster to drive from the SW to Bristol and fly EZY to Scotland (IME the EZY flights are very bus
30 Post contains links starrymarkb : And apologies for the double post, I've just seen this in the local paper http://www.exeterexpressandecho.co.u...s/story-20085134-detail/story.html
31 Post contains links LondonCity : This afternoon, Flybe announced it would be closing six bases: Aberdeen, Guernsey, Inverness, Isle of Man, Jersey and Newcastle. The first closures wi
32 Post contains images PlymSpotter : To cite the figures of a major employer in the Plymouth area: in 2011 50% of their business trips used Exeter airport, in 2012 that figure had fallen
33 mozart : Thanks, but that was not my quote. Something must have gotten mixed up in your quoting process. But still incredibly interesting. Is there anyway you
34 QANTASvJet : Apologies for the rogue quotation - no idea how I managed to do that. In terms of the domestic business travel I suspect that the data is buried away
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