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Boeing And Their Unions - The Future?  
User currently offlineSA7700 From South Africa, joined exactly 11 years ago today! , 3431 posts, RR: 26
Posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 18357 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Dear members,

This thread was started in order to discuss the negotiations between Boeing, the IAM and possible other Boeing unions. This include the proposed language to IAM 751 and further developments that may occur in the future.

IAM 751 Proposal

Please stay on topic and discuss Boeing and their Union issues here, instead of in the technical threads about the various Boeing products.

We thank you for your co-operation and hope that you have a positive experience and constructive discussions.


Regards,

SA7700


When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
261 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinestrfyr51 From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 1398 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 18297 times:
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What the IAM believes is happening,, and what BOEING is Telling them is happening might be TWO diivergent ideas. Could be they might want to look at the other industries and see what THRY'RE doing, OR?? NOT do it and get caught in a bind later on. As a more Mature worker? The Trend isn't going forward with the "Gimme it ALL" routine. It's just NOT going to fly.
But!! Union leadership has not always been pragmatic in their planning nor thinking. Though they are necessary because Managment might do all manner of outlandish things were there NO UNION. Especially since hardly ANY of them ( or the VAST Majority ) can turn a wrench. And ?? Might not recognize a B777 model 2 out of 3 times even if they were looking at the SAME airplane !!


User currently offlinefrmrcapcadet From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1739 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 18030 times:

Some observations:

Benefits are often the flash point. I will post on medical later.

Management and labor greatly underestimate how much funding a pension and retirement medical supplemental benefits cost. And management is inclined to malignantly protect quarterly profits and bonuses, hence underfund and let management 30 years later to figure out how to pay those benefits.

Oddly enough most union managed pensions (with the help of Federal oversight) have done OK. An advantage these funds have is that there is no plan b for extra income. The Employer/employee designate part of the entire pay/benefit package to the pensions fund. The employer has NO further obligation. They also can't use the money to play around with, which is so frequently done.

It takes about 18% of salary package to fund a pension that after 30-40 years will provide a 50% pension for those retiring at about 65. Actuaries are very smart, very good and can provide accurate information. They also are grouchy and conservative about their projections. A good pension fund is conservative about what it promises, and then includes cost of living increases in good years. One year bonuses are also a way to dispense extra funds without future obligation.

In boom years on the stock market plans will be overfunded. Nice. Take advantage of the boom. Build reserves. In bust years the plan will move toward being underfunded. No panic, no cost of living increases. The pension fund I am in has a policy that COLAs will require that plan is at 120% funding level. We are not in the Federal plan for pension protection.



Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5833 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 17900 times:

Leeham suggests the mixed signals we've been getting from IAM are the result of a difference of opinion between Local 751 and the International:

http://leehamnews.wordpress.com/2013...dnesday-on-boeings-contract-offer/


User currently offlinekanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 3856 posts, RR: 27
Reply 4, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 17832 times:
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Interesting proposal.. Boeing has been moving this way for years.. employees were encouraged to use the Voluntary Retirement Plan to supplement their pension. In 2000, the pension was $65 per month per year of service.. now I see they are freezing it at $95/mo/year of service. (that's $3800 a month for a 40 year retiree.)

Where the rub comes in with the IAM is many workers don't use the plan, and spend every cent today.. Many move on and accumulate only 10-15 years of service. Very few last 35 years.

A;so noted that the retirement medical remains "as is", if that is like the SPEEA plan, it's only in place until one turns 65, then you must go to Medicare. However, again since few actually retire, there is a whole bunch of emotion over a non event.

Unfortunately the loudest voices will be the "gimmee" crowd that seldom stay for the long haul to receive the benefits they demand.


User currently offlinephxa340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 900 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (1 year 1 month 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 17223 times:

It looks like the leaking of news about Mitsu's proposal to manufacture the wings was strategic to scare the unions.

User currently offlinefrmrcapcadet From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1739 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (1 year 1 month 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 17138 times:

It is a historical accident that medical insurance in the US is generally through employment. Back when medical care was not all that expensive (nor all that effective - say until about 1965) it was not a burden on business. That is no longer the case. Not only families, but also businesses go bankrupt over the cost of medical care.

Our current system is utterly inadequate to monitor and keep medical costs under control. We spend close to twice as much as other countries per purchasing power parity (PPP). These high costs are a terrible burden on companies who are in a competitive field. It is outside the scope of this forum and this thread to debate the politics of medical care.

But let it be noted that business and the Chamber of Commerce (and similar groups) have not contributed to a solution to this problem. And the percentage of persons getting pensions and medical care has declined precipitously over the last 25 years. It perhaps needs be noted that about all the major high tech foreign competitors have systems to look after pensions and medical insurance, mostly governmental, but not all. Companies needn't be concerned nor waste management time.

And we have repeatedly the Boeing Company and its Unions going to the mat in a kind of extreme combat mostly over two problems than neither of them can solve. Smart! Solutions are not possible when you refuse to acknowledge intractable problems.

[Edited 2013-11-12 15:27:54]


Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
User currently offlineQANTASvJet From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2012, 81 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 1 month 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 17080 times:

In answer to the original question - the future is Charlotte.

User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31392 posts, RR: 85
Reply 8, posted (1 year 1 month 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 17082 times:
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Quoting frmrcapcadet (Reply 6):
And we have repeatedly the Boeing Company and its Unions going to the mat in a kind of extreme combat mostly over two problems than neither of them can solve.

But those two issues are the big ones. More than wages, medical and retirement benefits are the cost center that Boeing HR is worried over and those are the two things the Union wants to protect (as they're industry-leading).


Quoting QANTASvJet (Reply 7):
In answer to the original question - the future is Charlotte (North Carolina).

That would be Charleston, South Carolina.  

[Edited 2013-11-12 15:34:44]

User currently offlinefrmrcapcadet From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1739 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 16969 times:

Stitch - I kind of agree. But would iterate my two longer posts. Companies need to figure out how to control* both medical and pensions, AND ensure that workers have both. A case could be made for expanding Social Security so that it typically would provide 50% or so of wages. If medical expenses were brought down to European and Japanese costs medical would not be all that much of a problem. We are crippling ourselves as a nation allowing these two issues to destroy companies and workers.

*I was tempted to say dump, but some sort of Federal solution and taxes need to replace them. I suspect what it now costs companies to provide pensions and medical would more than support what I have in mind - and it would not go up faster than inflation.



Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
User currently offlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5120 posts, RR: 28
Reply 10, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 16824 times:

Jusf to be clear, the workers in Charleston are screaming to go union again. I knew it would be a matter of time. As for the proposal to the IAM? It is disgusting! A company making incredible profits, threatens workers to accept that garbage? This is the worst proposal Boeing has ever offered. Take this or we put it somewhere else? Pretty nasty tactic if you ask me. If the contract gets voted down, and Boeing moves the work elsewhere, the tax breaks Washington agreed to should be voided.


I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2195 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 16646 times:

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 10):
A company making incredible profits,

This "incredible profit" is a short term windfall. They are battling over long term liabilities.

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 10):
, the tax breaks Washington agreed to should be voided.

I believe the tax break does not depend on the Union vote. But it does depend of whether the 777 FA will be built in Washington.



Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
User currently offlineChaosTheory From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2013, 342 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 16626 times:

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 11):
They are battling over long term liabilities.

In which case management should lead by example and have their remuneration cut.

After all, they're all in the same boat right?


User currently offlinetexl1649 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 299 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 16621 times:

I think the ghost of "old" GM/Chrysler are in the minds of Boeing management today (remember, the union pensioners wound up with ownership there). Giving in periodically to union demands on schedule did not pay off for GM.

Boeing is once again betting the company on the next new model (and missed expensively with the last one). It has to get it's manufacturing costs in order to remain competitive for decades to come.


User currently offlinefrmrcapcadet From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1739 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 16559 times:

Quoting texl1649 (Reply 13):
Boeing is once again betting the company on the next new model (and missed expensively with the last one). It has to get it's manufacturing costs in order to remain competitive for decades to come.

Overruns on actual R and D for the 787 may well have gone as high had most of it been done in Seattle - but the delays, penalties, and c*ck up would like have been largely absent. Some of us think, I know it is old fashioned and out of date, that a skilled workforce is an asset.



Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
User currently offlinetexl1649 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 299 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 16404 times:

Context matters. The decisions to outsource much of the 787 again rest on animosity which is, at least partially, to blame on the union strategies in 2008. Many American manufacturing industries have lost a vast majority of their former strength/jobs due to similar tactics over several decades (steel/auto).

Boeing's strategy (for engineering and outsourcing/remote mfg) has undoubtedly been expensive and error prone. But the market (stock price), and customers (orders), have supported the move. The IAM I would at this point would not see Long Beach/Alabama as the competition, but rather Airbus/China/Japan/BBD/EMB.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13520 posts, RR: 100
Reply 16, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 16378 times:
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I think this will be a close vote:
http://seattletimes.com/html/busines...022237073_boeingmachinistsxml.html

“It’s not a bluff”

Standing near Wroblewski at the signing ceremony, Conner told reporters that if the Machinists reject the company offer, Boeing’s threat to take the work of building its new 777X jet to another state is dead serious.

“It’s not a bluff,” Conner said. “My sincere hope is we don’t have to even think about that. ... Really, we would prefer not to do that.

“Hopefully we’ll get a good vote on Wednesday, then it’s easy,” Conner added. “This is our preference.”


Quoting frmrcapcadet (Reply 2):
Management and labor greatly underestimate how much funding a pension and retirement medical supplemental benefits cost.

At some point reality must be faced and normal business case profit margins acheived.

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 5):

It looks like the leaking of news about Mitsu's proposal to manufacture the wings was strategic to scare the unions.

I would say its more factual. Mitsubishi wants the work and is hungry for it. This is a decision that would save Boeing over a billion USD per year. That isn't scare tactics, that is a business decision. I believe the international union realizes this fact while local 751 does not.

Quoting frmrcapcadet (Reply 6):

It is a historical accident that medical insurance in the US is generally through employment.

Blame Kaiser and their desire to increase ship building productivity (it worked).  
Quoting QANTASvJet (Reply 7):

In answer to the original question - the future is Charlotte.

I'm not as certain. There is an advantage being colocated with engineering. I hope from the 787 Boeing understands those costs better...

Quoting frmrcapcadet (Reply 9):
Companies need to figure out how to control* both medical and pensions, AND ensure that workers have both.

Pensions are too much of a liability. Matched 401Ks are the way to go. As to medical, who would have predicted that over a third of the money goes to the lawyers today? That is unsustainable. The only way to

Quoting frmrcapcadet (Reply 14):
Some of us think, I know it is old fashioned and out of date, that a skilled workforce is an asset.

   But it has a value (or a cost not utilizing it). The goal of Boeing management is to best estimate the cost of doing the work away from the obvious value of the skilled labor force. But the workforce isn't worth an infinite amount. Boeing must be competitive vs. the A35J and probably a longer A35K. We're talking cost differences that will be tens of millions of USD per plane.

Quoting texl1649 (Reply 13):
Boeing is once again betting the company on the next new model (and missed expensively with the last one). It has to get it's manufacturing costs in order to remain competitive for decades to come.

If the old model isn't competitive with the A35J/A35K sales price, what is Boeing to do?

Besides, look at the OP link. If ratified, Boeing will build 1.5*10^6 square feet of more factory floor space! This isn't about using existing production lines, but rather building a new factory. Where is the best business case? Seattle has a natural advantage due to the talent of the labor pool. But that advantage is worth so much.

The plan seems fair. Freeze pensions in 2016 in return for more funds to the retirement accounts. Everyone is going to defined contribution pensions. There is also an increase to a *very* generous 401k matching. Copays go up to today's standard (better than the alternative...). The prescription drug plan is *very* generous too.

Wage increases are small, but local 751 has high wages by industry standards. Boeing must contain costs. That is the only negative by industry standards I see is the rate of wage increases.

I believe this is a fair deal for local 751. In fact, I think Boeing will pay out billions more on the 777X than if Mitsu and Charleston did the work. I do think Boeing will save 1 or 2 billion keeping the work in Seattle vs. any other deal, so that must be factored in the costs.

Quoting texl1649 (Reply 13):
Giving in periodically to union demands on schedule did not pay off for GM.

   or work allocation...


Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinetexl1649 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 299 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 16291 times:

I did not intend to imply that the aircrafts themselves are uncompetitive, but that the outsourcing/remote mfg efforts combined were very costly (clearly not "lose the company" costly though).

Labor's colllective decision here (and elsewhere) to politicize in favor of one party/healthcare bill while running away from participating in the markets their bill has produced is a bit amusing.

My family members in UT/TX are certainly all hoping this plays out with a strong no vote!


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13520 posts, RR: 100
Reply 18, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 16274 times:
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Quoting texl1649 (Reply 17):
My family members in UT/TX are certainly all hoping this plays out with a strong no vote!

Will Boeing send work to them?  


Yes, Obamacare makes the 'old school' health plans far more expensive. The cost burden must be shared. But overall, Boeing very fair. This is a generous offer when considering how much Boeing's costs have gone up.


Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 13093 posts, RR: 35
Reply 19, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 16150 times:

Voting is in progress.

Quote:
The mood was grim Wednesday as Machinists voted on a proposed Boeing contract extension that could determine whether Boeing builds a major new jet in Washington state.

Union members expressed resentment, anger and betrayal as they walked into Machinists District Lodge 751’s brick headquarters to cast their ballots. The outcome won't be clear until the votes are tallied around 9 p.m.
http://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/n...hinists-angry-as-they-vote-on.html


Huge turnout in #777X vote by IAM. Lines wrap all the way around Everett lodge. by Jon Ostrower, on Flickr



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 13093 posts, RR: 35
Reply 20, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 16094 times:

This one is quite funny:

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BY9tGdXCAAAcdXS.jpg:large



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31392 posts, RR: 85
Reply 21, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 16051 times:
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Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 20):
This one is quite funny:


Considering how many folks shop at WalMart...   

And if the WalMart plane means cheaper fares (thanks to lower purchase price for the airlines)...   


User currently offlineredflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4376 posts, RR: 28
Reply 22, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 16010 times:

Quoting frmrcapcadet (Reply 14):
Some of us think, I know it is old fashioned and out of date, that a skilled workforce is an asset.

A skilled workforce is an asset. But the problem (for the unions) is that standardization techniques, QA, training, Six Sigma, etc., are all intended to be able to replicate a skill in just about any location by establishing a minimum threshold. High tech is also becoming the norm, not the exception. Decades ago high tech industries were a form of black art bastions and they were concentrated in a few geographies. Nowadays, college degrees are the norm and cutting edge technologies can be spearheaded just about anywhere with some investment. Long gone are the days when aircraft manufacturing could be done only in one or two locations. Charleston is proof of this new age.

The problem with unions is that they are a relic of the past - a past that no longer exists. They are an anachronism. Strong labor laws have eliminated a lot of the need for a union, such that they are now competing against themselves in an economy that is experiencing 7.8% unemployment and a society that is spitting out educated workers willing to do the job of the union man for a third less than what he is getting paid and a fraction of the benefits. The sooner the IAM members realize this the sooner they can secure their jobs long term in Puget Sound.



My other home is a Piper Cherokee 180C
User currently offlinetexl1649 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 299 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 15981 times:

That is funny KarelXWB. The public also doesn't want 10-abreast 777's I guess. But they are voting with their ticket purchases, and always have.

I especially like that his sign is held up on one end by duct tape. (Probably from Wal Mart, made in china).


User currently offlineER757 From Cayman Islands, joined May 2005, 2607 posts, RR: 7
Reply 24, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days ago) and read 15898 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 20):

That is funny  

Thing is though "the public" aren't the ones buying these 9 figure machines so the point is somewhat moot.


25 Post contains images lightsaber : I wonder what a no vote would mean for the 777X. I'm serious. Since they already build the 787 wings, Mitsu should be able to build 777X wings for les
26 Stitch : I expect it depends on how close the vote is. If the difference is less than 10%, I expect both sides to re-negotiate and come up with an acceptable
27 lightsaber : I think Boeing will look at Mitsubishi's offer if there is any no vote. I would assume they would also look at some of the other state offers. Jobs a
28 Stitch : Indeed it will be, but if they vote no, Boeing could just renege on the promise since I can't see IAM 751 giving any ground. However, Dominic Gates a
29 Stitch : Still no official word, but it could be as much as 2 to 1 against the proposal. The "No" votes were very...aggressive...with their peers and they're c
30 phxa340 : If thats the case, WA can kiss the 777X good bye. IAM members need a reality check. They are simply not competitive in 2013. The skills that they pos
31 Stitch : Based on the comments, the "No" votes believe Boeing can't afford to let them go and that the 787 fiasco proved they're too valuable to leave behind
32 Stitch : IAM 751 has rejected the contract offer by a massive margin - 67% against.
33 timpdx : IAM voted it DOWN as per the live Seattle Times blog. 67% no
34 lightsaber : They could. After 2016. Agreed. Is it rejected? I'm staying up to find out the results and see no information. Lightsaber
35 timpdx : lightsaber go to the Seattle Times website. results in. the proposal went down hard.
36 tortugamon : That is a 2:1 margin. Hard to see how that big of a gap can be overcome. Next stop Japan. Was really looking forward to a story about cutting edge tec
37 phxa340 : Unreal. Well I understand why they did it, but they aren't basing their demands to align with current market conditions. I hope Boeing picks Long Bea
38 Post contains links blrsea : On komo news site ... Boeing machinists reject contentious contract proposal excerpt ... [Edited 2013-11-13 21:14:28]
39 phxa340 : I wouldn't expect Boeing to come back to the negotiating table with that margin.
40 Stitch : Not necessarily Japan, but I would not be surprised if Boeing sites the 777X assembly outside of PAE. I could see them choosing someplace other than
41 tortugamon : You may be right. I was referring to the wings at least. I do expect the FAL to be in the YS as well. tortugamon
42 StuckInCA : Wow. Those guys are shockingly out of touch with reality. I have a bad feeling this will have a noticeable impact on this regions economy in the futu
43 seabosdca : We'll see. I got the sense the union members were as upset about the process as they were about the actual terms of the offer. I'm sure Boeing will a
44 707lvr : The title of this thread, something about future .. union .. Boeing? Call it OVER. We've known that for some time as Seattle moved on when the Company
45 KarelXWB : Honestly, I never believed they would massively vote against it because in the end, you still want to have a job in the future (IMO).[Edited 2013-11-
46 Stitch : Well they appear to believe Boeing is bluffing and that their jobs are safe so they should not have to accept that level of concessions. *shrug*
47 Post contains links KarelXWB : Well, Boeing execs are already heading to other states, so it seems. http://twitter.com/GlennFarley/status/400870055434391552[Edited 2013-11-14 01:15
48 lightsaber : I now give the odds of 777X wing production being outside Washington at 50%+. This isn't over, but the message is clear. Wow... Just wow. That is a cl
49 MtnWest1979 : Well it won't be CHS IMO, since they stated (whether truly or not, I don't know), that they are thinking LGB,HSV or UT. They say CHS is out due to nee
50 angmoh : I could not see any other outcome than this one. Boeing trying to force the issue and local #751 been given the option of either take the hard line t
51 EPA001 : That number surprises me. This is a very high-stakes poker game which can have sour grapes for the losing party. It looks like a dangerous "game".
52 mjoelnir : Boeing is running a double game. When they talk to the investors and make there Financial Statements the world is rosy future is assured. That keeps t
53 Post contains images SEPilot : Is that the Yankee States? I did not know New England was in contention, but if so, maybe I'll get a job there. With this big a margin it indicates t
54 texl1649 : I am proud of Boeing for being committed to a proactive strategy vs. a hostile union that doesn't care about the welfare of the company/ownership long
55 Stitch : If Boeing Commercial does decide that leaving WA is the correct path, then the 777X and 737 MAX are the two logical first projects to go, followed by
56 KarelXWB : I assume the current 787 line will also stay in WA for a long time, and maybe the USAF could line-up for the KC-777.
57 redflyer : Agreed. That kind of margin is the ultimate "F&^% You". I don't think it will. The job attrition at Boeing will occur over a number of years and
58 lightsaber : But what if one party was upfront? IAM 751 is a very militant union. I believe the offer made was fair. I am with others in believing Boeing will mov
59 Post contains images PHX787 : My take- Welcome to Japan, Boeing, and your 77X wing production team Also: I smell a BUNCH of lobbying from Nikki Haley and Jan Brewer about expanding
60 Post contains images tortugamon : If only auto-correct was better on my iPad. That was a U not a Y for US as in, in the United States. Looks like you don't have to worry about moving
61 DTW2HYD : Not likely. They will have at least Republican support if they move to North Charleston, SC. Otherwise Boeing will have no friends in DC. I was even
62 tortugamon : I was referring to the wings. I see the wings being built in Japan as very likely at this point. SC does not have to do with DC. And they don't need
63 texl1649 : unlike the union, the company has to be careful and play both sides of the isle in DC. I suspect California wwill wind up as a "surprising" favorite.
64 hivue : So how daring would Boeing want to be moving final assembly completely out of WA for a product as high volume as the 777X looks like it's eventually g
65 Post contains images seabosdca : Boeing promised the MAX to Renton in the last contract. The International largely negotiated this on its own. There may have been a different result
66 tortugamon : Why? California has higher real estate costs, higher wages, higher taxes, more environmental restrictions, and an altogether worse business environme
67 Stitch : Yes, but they don't have to keep that promise. That being said, I would not be surprised if they source a second 737 MAX FAL outside of WA. The IAM c
68 frmrcapcadet : The 67percent vote was against a specific proposal. Not another one. If Boeing and other companies want to get out of the pension and medical business
69 BoeingGuy : You have no idea what you are talking about. The people at Boeing care about the product and the company. People take it personally if a big sales ca
70 diverdave : We can only hope. It would be amazing to have two aircraft assembly operations in Alabama. David
71 DTW2HYD : Wings may be a possibility. Personally I would like Boeing to source even wings from USA. My comment was about Boeing management, employees sure do h
72 bikerthai : For final assy, the environmental issue they face would be no different from what they faced today with the C-17 line (only in a larger volume). Mayb
73 kanban : Really? 80% of those voting will never stay on the job long enough to retire. When they go to other industries, they will find the benefits are very
74 drew777 : I wouldn't count on that. Mobile and Huntsville are 350 miles apart. Airbus hasn't even started hiring production workers yet, so the pool of workers
75 texl1649 : Remember the one thing McD was exceptionally good at was distributing production to many states as with the c17. That is why it outlived USAF requirem
76 sonomaflyer : So it boils down to a couple of main issues, pension versus defined benefit plan and contribution to health care. The Union's own website has its lite
77 SSTeve : I'm probably not alone in preferring the Western Washington weather. It appears that Huntsville has much worse summers and worse winters.
78 tortugamon : Just looking at the past couple of months and the number of days that Everett has not been able to fly because of low ceiling and other weather conce
79 DfwRevolution : Not daring at all. The 787 was a debacle because Boeing had never managed an airplane program that way before. Now they've done it and they know how
80 tortugamon : A King 5 reporter is saying that Boeing has indicated that they will not engage in negotiations with the union again until 2016. If Boeing does decide
81 Post contains links and images diverdave : Plus we don't have to worry about about the 3rd most dangerous (but still beautiful) volcano in the U.S. http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/20035
82 sonomaflyer : Huntsville I'm sure would work just fine but Boeing would need to build a FAL from scratch, tool it, hire workers and ramp it up. I'm guessing the bea
83 tortugamon : I personally believe there will be about 1,000 787s flying before the 777x enters service. There is so much time separating them that I don't think t
84 texl1649 : It's the 21st century. Engineering doesn't have to be co-located with manufacturing. Is that how Airbus does it? Or, for that matter, does Bell do it'
85 BoeEngr : I respectfully disagree. I spend many hours a month in the factory resolving issues, answering questions, providing direction. I can't do that via te
86 bikerthai : Engineering doesn't have to be co-located with manufacturing. But believe me, the Engineer will learn of problems (manufacturing or engineering wise)
87 Post contains images lightsaber : And the CFRP commercial wing manufacturing expertise is already in Japan... Airbus has a very distributed manufacturing model. Since wings are the mo
88 Post contains images SEPilot : Having worked in engineering for 35 years, I will say that while it is not absolutely essential, it is much, much more efficient if it is. In additio
89 queb : It's true for production support engineering but for the design, it could be anywhere.
90 707lvr : I think a lot of people don't realize how poisonous the union/management relationship is up here. This divorce has been in the works for a long time,
91 7BOEING7 : Take away #1: Boeing health care coverage is one of the best in the US even with the increased costs which most other Boeing employees are already pay
92 BoeEngr : Again, I disagree. I am working on a development/design program. Engineering is not yet finished, and I'm providing lots of hands on support to the f
93 tortugamon : But she sure is a beauty in the air. Congratulations on that. Hope your next project is similarly rewarding. tortugamon
94 queb : BBD has designed the Learjet 85 and Global 7000/8000 in Montreal, the first is built in Mexico and assembled in Wichita and the second will be assembl
95 BoeEngr : Definitely agree it's possible. I don't believe it's a good or efficient practice, however. Others may disagree. In my engineering career (about 15 y
96 Drewski2112 : Worth noting that a Boeing Company Challenger flew BFI-LGB this morning.
97 mrocktor : As long as all you care about is a design that is good on paper, this is true. In real life though, having design engineering close to the factory is
98 Post contains links greaser : http://www.forbes.com/sites/steveden...e-are-bringing-manufacturing-back/ GE agrees with you. Remember the days when everyone said meeting in person w
99 lutfi : Sad to see. My sympathies are with the union on this one. Yeah, maybe they should accept the reality that in US a blue collar job can no longer give a
100 phxa340 : The education pool in the US is incredibly mobile. Everyone I met at the Boeing factory in Mesa AZ was from another state and a lot moved to AZ for t
101 StuckInCA : I, by no means, believe that the regions economy is entirely dependent on Boeing, but I'm not sure how you could say that Seattle "moved on." Boeing
102 StuckInCA : I agree with you on this point, but the reality is that an Engineering job can only provide a middle class living in certain circumstances. So why sh
103 lutfi : Not for the pool of labour, but for the families of engineers that want to move there. You are a highly qualified engineer, your husband has a techni
104 lutfi : In that case US is screwed. I'm an engineer with a master's degree, damn right I expect middle class lifestyle, and would move sectors to get one. Or
105 phxa340 : In public education. If you have the financial means, you can find a quality education mostly anywhere. But otherwise yes I do agree with your points
106 Post contains links F9Animal : Here is an interesting article. Charleston workers are fed up, and want to be union again. I knew this was going to happen. LGB is also union. Boeing
107 dynamo12 : What does this mean for the 3 year renewal? Does Boeing need to start marking plans now for strikes in Seattle hitting the rest of their lines? There'
108 Stitch : Machinists at Boeing more than make enough to enjoy a comfortable middle class lifestyle. As such, this fight was not over making a living now - it w
109 Post contains links seabosdca : The most senior do. Many at junior ranks and/or with less seniority don't. Everyone should have a look at the current wage card.
110 PITingres : Allow me to inject a note of caution ... education, at least in the US, is local, not state-wide or even necessarily county-wide. I rather suspect th
111 trigged : Huntsville has more PhD's and post-graduate engineers than almost any other spot in the US. While there are many rural areas in Alabama with dismal e
112 william : Really? Quote me a real news source.
113 Revelation : Flying boats have just as much trouble with bad weather as do other types of aircraft. Boeing is in Western WA because Bill Boeing was in Western WA.
114 Post contains images lightsaber : I know too many peopel at Boeing who chose Charleston to get away from the IAM. My sources on the ground claim this is union rabble rousing. Please q
115 texl1649 : The politics in Japan have to be interesting to Boeing right now, as far as wing manufacture goes. Wings and engines can come in anywhere for FAL. Thi
116 bikerthai : And I've had almost 25 years of Engineering experience both in R&D, Sustaining Support, and new Airplane Development, and I am 100% in agreement
117 frmrcapcadet : Love it. Moderators started this thread to get the politics out of the 777X up date, and keep technical stuff to the original thread. ps - and thanks
118 Revelation : Indeed so. Kelley Johnson famously insisted that the Skunk Works be set up with engineering and manufacturing co-located. This is perfectly clear to
119 Post contains images bikerthai : How true. In this case you move the necessary Engineering to the spread out factories and live with reduce cross pollination. bt
120 par13del : The new production method implemented for the 787 was a long term plan, it was supposed to reduce production cost and allow a/c to be built cheaper t
121 Post contains links RDUDDJI : I see. Nobody bit the first time you "claimed" CHS employees want a union... So you come back with a lefty blog post from a wife beater as your sourc
122 Stitch : More like a bad move by International and IAM 751 leadership as there are now calls within IAM 751 to recall their local leadership... If I was Boein
123 seabosdca : It takes two to tango. A bad strategic move by both sides, IMO. Boeing and the International both got caught up in a vision of delivering labor peace
124 Revelation : Seems the union rank and file position is pretty clear, so it's hard to see that it'd be worth it for Boeing to bother coming back a second time.
125 Stitch : It's worth Boeing's time to continue to talk and see if they can do a long-term (10 year) deal, but I'd be preparing a contingency plan for a non-IAM
126 mjoelnir : The big difference at Boeing at the next round of talks with some union could be that James McNerney could than have retired and the outlook how to wo
127 Post contains links KarelXWB : Boeing says no plans to reopen union talks on 777X: http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...dubai-boeing-idUSBRE9AF03E20131116
128 tortugamon : There will be many who have a vested interest in getting the two sides together to find common ground, not the least of which are the Governor and all
129 seabosdca : I think the very negative reaction was based on multiple factors, some of which can be addressed in ways that really wouldn't change the benefits of
130 SEPilot : I think the $10,000 signing bonus was a considerable amount of money. I have never been offered a bonus anything like that in my life.
131 7BOEING7 : Raises were COL+ 1% (every other year) which in today's market is more than many people get and there was a $10K sweetener -- don't know exactly how
132 Stitch : A common theme seems to be the older members felt the benefits they'd fought for were a sort of "legacy" that needed to be passed on to the younger g
133 7BOEING7 : In my understanding there was no loss of benefits to anybody that is currently a union member -- only to those who would be employed in the future. T
134 StuckInCA : Why should Boeing go out of their way to force through changes that would still leave the Machinists very well compensated? Why not go somewhere wher
135 SEPilot : Boeing faces huge costs either way, and moving risks having production delays because of an inexperienced workforce. I believe that the deciding fact
136 CX747 : IAM 751 need look no further than the number of "union" workers who used to be employed in Detroit making automobiles. The majority of those jobs are
137 Stitch : So the 777X launches with over 250 orders (largest commercial airliner launch in history). Wonder what the IAM 751 folks are thinking now...
138 SEPilot : Actually, thinking about it, I think it likely that Boeing will pick someplace other than Charleston. They could well have decided that having multip
139 CX747 : What a day for the 777-9 and 777-8. The one thing that is great to see is that the -8 has garnered far more attention than the -200LR did and seems to
140 lightsaber : No need for the stock to react with as many years as there are left on the contract. I think all that has been done is free up 777X wing work for ano
141 JoeCanuck : I think all 777x work is on the table...not just the wing. Regardless of which side of the union vote one is on, you just have to look at Charleston
142 par13del : I would think the same thing they were thinking when they voted down the proposal, a bad proposal for them does not get better because persons are bu
143 jfk777 : Eventally Boeing will keep their 777X production in Seattle, it would be to everyone's advantage to do that. Washington state can't let 20 years produ
144 SEPilot : I do not see how you think that Washington state is going to keep the 777X in the state if Boeing decides to move it. Right or wrong, it is their dec
145 frmrCapCadet : Seattle area is not a low cost living area anymore. This likely has an impact on a company that wants to be a low cost producer. Incidentally the west
146 Post contains images lightsaber : Agreed. But this is economics and I believe it is unlikely to move 777 final assembly due to risk (which is put in as a cost estimate). I do think th
147 PPVRA : I would expect such a team to fly out of Chicago. Huntsville has the largest number of PhDs of any city in the country. Moving to Huntsville from Sea
148 Stitch : Boeing Commercial Airplanes - and their management - are still headquartered in Seattle and they're the ones performing the due diligence and prepari
149 Post contains images bikerthai : Been to Huntsville, and Wichita, so I can vouch on the following comment. Why does it cost so much to live in Seattle when it rain so darn much here?
150 Stitch : We get less rain than many other cities in "sunnier" climes. What we do have a ton of, however, is overcast.
151 Post contains links EaglePower83 : I kind of agree, but then I see my own parents' employers try to get away with the wildest things. My pharmacist father, who used to be in a Union, w
152 frmrCapCadet : Corporations are an artificial construct of society. They were invented and legally enabled for their contribution to society through better economic
153 Post contains links and images lightsaber : Yes, but required to compete at the economies of scale required to make airliners. There is no other structure yet invented to employ as many thousan
154 frmrCapCadet : Lightsaber - appreciated your post. You likely would agree that the worst combination is a monopoly du/ triopoly corporation with their equally powerf
155 Stitch : Alan Mulally was presented with a plan in September 2003 to have Mitsubishi, Kawasaki and Fuji assemble the fuselage panels they manufacture into com
156 Post contains images lightsaber : Anyone else have the last few posts scrambled? My post 153 is after replies to that post... Our firewall at work? Interesting. I didn't know about tha
157 Post contains links rwessel : It's related to the newest updates to Chrome. You may want to mention that you're having the problem here: Report The Bugs Here (Part 5) (by moderato
158 Post contains links jetblastdubai : [This week, Sawant became Seattle’s first elected Socialist council member. She ran on a platform of anti-capitalism, workers’ rights, and a $15 p
159 Pygmalion : Clearly not in touch with reality. Boeing defense stuff is not built in Everett. There are no "war machines " built in Everett. So they should stop b
160 nry : Wow. When you have made San Francisco politicians look moderate, you know you're out in left field.
161 jetblastdubai : However, these remarks were "made to a cheering crowd of union supporters" according to the article. Time for more popcorn.
162 Post contains images bikerthai : Fortunately Everett is not in her jurisdiction. Unfortunately Boeing Defense facility at Boeing Field is close enough for her to throw rocks at. Unfo
163 Post contains images lightsaber : Yep. Anyone doubt there will be a strike when the contract is over? Heck, that was to be expected anyway. This just means more 'barrel stuffing' and
164 SEPilot : It's also going to be cost prohibitive to keep it in Washington state; that is what this whole fight is about. It reminds me of the advice on shootin
165 Post contains images 7BOEING7 : And when you have a elected socialist politician who was also part of the "occupy" movement in Seattle mouthing off Boeing may be the first of many w
166 Stitch : I believe a strike is guaranteed in 2016. She's one city councilperson in a city where Boeing has minimal production presence. Not to mention most of
167 frmrCapCadet : And no need to get hysterical about an actual leftist in government. Most Democrats these days are to the right of Eisenhower. Note, one or two are en
168 HSVflier : Trigged nailed it....HSV has been a leader in engineering and aerospace technologies since the 60's...also a decent cargo operation already located a
169 Stitch : Trick is, Boeing doesn't really need a lot of engineers - they need a lot of machinists. That being said, Boeing Huntsville engineers will be working
170 Post contains images SSTeve : Watch out Kshama, you'll scare Amazon and Microsoft away. Unless you replace "Kshama" with "statewide progressive income tax" I really doubt it. The
171 GSPflyer : This should be considered when talking about South Carolina as well. Education funding here is allotted to counties based on property value in that p
172 frmrCapCadet : Bill Gates dad, graduated from my high school about the time I was born, if fact headed up a major initiative to introduce a progressive income tax i
173 Stitch : Which was clubbed down like a harp seal by the voters - including voters in strongly Democratic and "liberal" cities and counties in Western Washingt
174 frmrCapCadet : So...... Illinois and South Carolina get a very hefty part of their state income from income tax. See Wikipedia.
175 Post contains images SSTeve : The original point being about Microsoft and Amazon, incidentally. Helps lure talent from northern California in a way that the fantastic weather doe
176 Revelation : One view of the economic reality of the time is that BCA has strong if not record profits and record backlogs. Another view of the economic reality i
177 Post contains images PHX787 : That Sawat chick is crazy...an idealist who will probably lose her seat...but then again it is Seattle. YEP! The Apache's are built right in Seattle's
178 Stitch : The incumbent she won against, Richard Conlin, voted against a new basketball arena in Seattle and there is speculation that pro-sports voters voted
179 SEPilot : But Boeing directors must plan on lean times as well. It is not prudent to offer pay and benefits that are considerably higher than any comparable in
180 frmrCapCadet : Actually if these benefits are fully funded it is not a problem. Take the total remuneration amount per current pay, and actuaries can be amazingly a
181 Post contains links SSTeve : So, what are these 15? Boeing picks 15 potential sites to build 777X Everett, Charleston, Long Beach, Alabama(1), Wichita. Need 10 more! I'm trying to
182 lightsaber : As you note: Everett Charleston Long Beach Huntsville Alabama Wichita (listed in your link as Kansas, but the location is obvious) In link had San An
183 bikerthai : Oklahoma may be one. They did mention Utah. St. Louis may have multiple sites. And Japan? Other places where they have major Boeing Operations - but
184 SSTeve : That's right... Utah. Also New York State pimped a few greenfield airports (Platsburgh and Niagara) for the A330 tanker. Could be any number of those
185 Post contains images lightsaber : Ah... Oklahoma makes sense. Utah would be a 'dark horse candidate.' But that grows the list. For wings maybe, not the FAL. Lightsaber
186 bikerthai : Of course, but the site search include the wing facility that would preferably be next to the FAL but not set in stone. Which makes Utah a candidate
187 Stitch : Well Utah does build the horizontal stabilizer for the 787-9 and they have strong composites experience, so they should be a strong candidate for fab
188 bikerthai : What a bout seal beach. Any open real estate there? bt
189 trigged : ULA production facilities are ~30 miles away due west. Plenty of machinists too, but could probably use a handful more.
190 Post contains links PITrules : Add Pennsylvania to the list: "Pa. asked to bid on attracting Boeing plant" http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...QVAM&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE
191 Post contains links diverdave : There are reports of behind the scenes efforts to keep the work in Seattle: http://www.heraldnet.com/article/201...to-get-Boeing-union-back-to-table#
192 BoeingGuy : Not sure if there is real estate there (I'm guessing not), but it would be kind of hard to build 777Xs someplace that doesn't have an airport. Not su
193 ER757 : Not surprised to hear this - in the end, it would make the most sense to keep the work in Washington for myriad reasons. Not sure that will happen th
194 Post contains images lightsaber : I missed that they are fabricating the 789 horizontal stabilizer. Good to know. I agree, add Utah as a candidate to make the wings. It makes sense wi
195 PITrules : As much as I would like that, the fact that Boeing has only given all these states a couple weeks to put together a competitive package leads me to b
196 Stitch : State-level incentives are not going to help Boeing when their workforce is outside the plant around burn barrels as opposed to being inside the plan
197 MD-90 : This has already decisively proved to not be a problem. Huntsville does lose a bit of its luster there but it's an easy 90 minute drive down I-65 to
198 seabosdca : To the contrary, I see this incredibly hurry-up timetable as a way to try to put the union in Washington in an impossible situation. And Boeing may s
199 Post contains links and images 7BOEING7 : Looks like North Carolina could be moving to the head of the pack: http://www.king5.com/news/aerospace/...a-to-land-the-777X--234686771.html
200 JHwk : There is a rail line at the northwest corner of LGB, not ideal but if you really had to I am sure you could make it work. By the looks of the satelli
201 Post contains images lightsaber : Except Boeing has talked with Pennsylvania before. So I don't think several of the sites are starting from cold: 1. Washington 2. Japan (mostly for w
202 Post contains images tugger : Long Beach actually has quite a bit of space near in the port that could be dedicated to a new line.... Just sayin'! Tugg
203 Post contains links Stitch : A major sticking point was the issue of pensions. The Puget Sound Business Journal ran an article about them in January 2013[ when SPEEA and Boeing we
204 lightsaber : California move in 3 weeks on incentives... I wish, but won't happen. As your numbers note, it will be an important issue. Lightsaber
205 bikerthai : Current nose section is built in Wichita (Spirit). Unlikely that it will change as the expertise is there and they have already off-loaded the work o
206 lightsaber : But my understanding is much of the 777 stuffing occurs in Washington. If I'm wrong, I would like to know the correct answer. What I am implying is w
207 Post contains links Stitch : That is correct. Spirit builds the nose, but it arrives at Everett completely empty and with exposed ribs. All the interior installation and wiring i
208 bikerthai : If Spirit can do the "Stuffing" they can probably go for the 737 package as well. bt
209 Stitch : They probably could, but it would require a not-insignificat investment in equipment, personnel and training as for the moment they just assemble and
210 ER757 : KING-TV had a segment on the local news last night where they talked to a group of IAM members - they all pretty much say Boeing in bluffing, they are
211 Post contains links 7BOEING7 : Here is the whole 48 minute discussion with the IAM members: http://www.king5.com/news/aerospace/...h-Boeing-machinists-234823341.html
212 JHwk : One way or another. HAL or Relocation will both impact jobs in Puget Sound.
213 Stitch : And yet they're not really being delusional in their belief that Boeing needs them. The 777X is not the long pole in the tent in 2016 when the curren
214 Post contains images ER757 : Indeed these are the IAM's aces in the hole. It it in Boeing's best interest to secure labor peace before the current contract ends since a prolonged
215 Post contains links Stitch : As KarelXWB noted in the 777X Developments thread, The Seattle Times is reporting that Boeing and IAM 751 Representatives are actively in negotiation
216 Post contains images EPA001 : But that is all a very, very high-stake poker game. The one who looses suffers deeply. That would be the outcome which I would find the most logical.
217 Stitch : It is a high-stakes game, but if the IAM 751 just rolls over now, they're effectively losing big, anyway, since they tacitly agree that they provide
218 EPA001 : I guess I can only agree with that comment. Exciting times to come. I remain hopeful they will stay in WA, but I am not putting any money down on bet
219 kanban : A couple things 1) the Union is meeting a second time with Boeing Commercial.. from one source it appears at the unions request. Reminds me of the SPE
220 Stitch : Based on what I have read, the original proposal was negotiated solely between Boeing and IAM International. Neither IAM 751 leadership nor rank and
221 A10WARTHOG : The union just gave a offer to Boeing. Should see a response by Boeing tommorrow. Hold on this could be interesting
222 lightsaber : The symbolic issue is the pensions which has to be resolved as the deficit is too high for Boeing to manage. The two sides are far apart. That I expe
223 kanban : If they go to sections vs panels and pre stuffing, there is too high an inventory cost involved to continue shipping by sea.. This is why I believe t
224 frmrCapCadet : Can anyone give a PPP (purchasing power parity) as to the difference between Airbus and Boeing? It seems to me that unions would be on strong bargaini
225 Stitch : But Boeing already is incurring inventory costs because the panels are being shipped via sea and once they arrive at Everett, they spend a fair bit o
226 tim73 : In most EU countries the pension payments are collected every single month on top of the salary and paid to separate pension company or companies. Yo
227 Post contains images seabosdca : If the union gives on the pension, the 777X will stay in Washington. The question is what the union's price is. Boeing originally offered essentially
228 kanban : the panels are considerably less of an inventory value/expense than an assembled section let alone a stuffed section. The push is not to have money (
229 Stitch : I failed to note that I was assuming Boeing went with HAL and pre-assembled the 777X fuselage sections in Japan. Phase 1 of HAL was for the Japanese
230 bikerthai : Have we already established that a complete 777 fuselage section will not fit in the Dream Lifter? As for inventory, who is liable for the inventory
231 kanban : First question, I was thinking of capacity fork supporting the additional lines rather than size. I'm sure someone out there has computed whether or
232 Post contains links queb : No deal ! and "The 777X site selection process has continued in parallel with this week's IAM meetings. In an overwhelmingly strong response from inte
233 Post contains links phxa340 : Yup per Rueters no deal. Boeing is done negotiating with unions after they reject the final counter offer. http://finance.yahoo.com/news/boeing...hini
234 SEPilot : Big surprise (not). I am surprised by how much Boeing sweetened the offer. It is clear that they would really like to stay in Washington, but they ar
235 phxa340 : I am now firmly in the camp that believes Boeing wants out of Washington.
236 seabosdca : Not a chance. I'd bet a very nice bottle of scotch that there will be at least one more round, and probably more. We don't know what was in the union
237 phxa340 : I disagree. If Boeing wants to commit to it's timeline , they need to pick a location sooner than later. The Unions are living in fantasy land with t
238 SSTeve : And if that location still costs more over the next 20 years versus Everett?
239 Stitch : I'm very confident Boeing is not done negotiating. They've given "best and final" offers before, only to come back and amend them. And yes, Boeing swe
240 phxa340 : Then Boeing has some seriously deficiencies in long term strategic planning. Pensions are incredibly expensive to fund so even if the new located run
241 frmrCapCadet : Pensions do not have to be incredibly expensive. Unions and management do need to divvy up total compensation as to salary, pension, and medical.
242 frmrCapCadet : Pensions do not have to be incredibly expensive. Unions and management do need to divvy up total compensation as to salary, pension, and medical. It i
243 rj777 : Any word on when Boeing will announce the winner?
244 Post contains images lightsaber : Agreed. Where is the popcorn smilie? That will be an interesting negotiation/vote. If everything is sent together, it should save money assuming the
245 707lvr : Why Boeing brass might be interested in reducing its presence in Washington State: 1943 20,000 protest War wage freeze 1948 STRIKE - 140 days (seniori
246 Post contains links KirkSeattle : Union said they would allow union members to vote on the latest proposal. But in this poorly worded article, seems as though Boeing has withdrawn the
247 Stitch : There appear to be two levels of the IAM negotiating with Boeing - the National IAM and IAM Local 751. This new proposal was rejected by Local 751 re
248 KirkSeattle : Thanks for the clarification. Happy Friday KirkSeattle
249 TVNWZ : One of the biggest obsticales in big negotiations like this. It helped hobble the auto industry. The needs, desires and strategy of local unions can
250 Post contains images Revelation : Done? The article says: Alder is Boeing spokesman Doug Alder, and you don't need to be a 'spokesman' to read through that line. As above, it seems th
251 kanban : I believe they are not barrels, but skin panels, (upper, lower, and side). they come in massive sealed containers to preclude saltwater damage. Shipp
252 JayinKitsap : At a new site, the subcontractors for wings and barrels could do 'final assembly' of sub parts made in Japan or ?. That eliminates the over sized ship
253 JoeCanuck : Pensions are a long term killer and pretty much all companies which previously funded pensions are out of the business. The most cost effective way is
254 frmrCapCadet : People continually say this. They are wrong. A funded pension at typical levels requires about 18% of total compensation. Are workers willing to fore
255 Prost : Did any other state come close to Washington's $8.7 billion package?
256 Revelation : Right, the 'typical level' is tolerable. The thing the corporations fear is the risk. Suppose the economy tanks at the same time a large number of em
257 kanban : As I've noted before, in today's workforce they scream a bout pensions that they seldom stay long enough to receive, yet live day to day with frivolo
258 lightsaber : That implies one (or more) of the other offers was worth considering. I would be surprised if Japan didn't have a good offer for the wings. Unless a
259 par13del : One can expect that since Charleston opened and Boeing moved higher paying jobs there, that cost in and around the arear is also rising. Its a cycle,
260 frmrCapCadet : The clarify the arithmetic: pensions could be redone as other industries have done then through their union or other non-profit corporations. Boeing w
261 Post contains links iowaman : Due to length this thread will be archived. Part two is available here: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future? Part 2 (by iowaman Dec 13 2013 in Civil
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