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Boeing And Their Unions - The Future?  
User currently offlineSA7700 From South Africa, joined Dec 2003, 3431 posts, RR: 25
Posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 18123 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Dear members,

This thread was started in order to discuss the negotiations between Boeing, the IAM and possible other Boeing unions. This include the proposed language to IAM 751 and further developments that may occur in the future.

IAM 751 Proposal

Please stay on topic and discuss Boeing and their Union issues here, instead of in the technical threads about the various Boeing products.

We thank you for your co-operation and hope that you have a positive experience and constructive discussions.


Regards,

SA7700


When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
261 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinestrfyr51 From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 1212 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 18063 times:
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What the IAM believes is happening,, and what BOEING is Telling them is happening might be TWO diivergent ideas. Could be they might want to look at the other industries and see what THRY'RE doing, OR?? NOT do it and get caught in a bind later on. As a more Mature worker? The Trend isn't going forward with the "Gimme it ALL" routine. It's just NOT going to fly.
But!! Union leadership has not always been pragmatic in their planning nor thinking. Though they are necessary because Managment might do all manner of outlandish things were there NO UNION. Especially since hardly ANY of them ( or the VAST Majority ) can turn a wrench. And ?? Might not recognize a B777 model 2 out of 3 times even if they were looking at the SAME airplane !!


User currently offlinefrmrcapcadet From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1718 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 17796 times:

Some observations:

Benefits are often the flash point. I will post on medical later.

Management and labor greatly underestimate how much funding a pension and retirement medical supplemental benefits cost. And management is inclined to malignantly protect quarterly profits and bonuses, hence underfund and let management 30 years later to figure out how to pay those benefits.

Oddly enough most union managed pensions (with the help of Federal oversight) have done OK. An advantage these funds have is that there is no plan b for extra income. The Employer/employee designate part of the entire pay/benefit package to the pensions fund. The employer has NO further obligation. They also can't use the money to play around with, which is so frequently done.

It takes about 18% of salary package to fund a pension that after 30-40 years will provide a 50% pension for those retiring at about 65. Actuaries are very smart, very good and can provide accurate information. They also are grouchy and conservative about their projections. A good pension fund is conservative about what it promises, and then includes cost of living increases in good years. One year bonuses are also a way to dispense extra funds without future obligation.

In boom years on the stock market plans will be overfunded. Nice. Take advantage of the boom. Build reserves. In bust years the plan will move toward being underfunded. No panic, no cost of living increases. The pension fund I am in has a policy that COLAs will require that plan is at 120% funding level. We are not in the Federal plan for pension protection.



Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
User currently onlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5467 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 17666 times:

Leeham suggests the mixed signals we've been getting from IAM are the result of a difference of opinion between Local 751 and the International:

http://leehamnews.wordpress.com/2013...dnesday-on-boeings-contract-offer/


User currently offlinekanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 3551 posts, RR: 26
Reply 4, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 17598 times:
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Interesting proposal.. Boeing has been moving this way for years.. employees were encouraged to use the Voluntary Retirement Plan to supplement their pension. In 2000, the pension was $65 per month per year of service.. now I see they are freezing it at $95/mo/year of service. (that's $3800 a month for a 40 year retiree.)

Where the rub comes in with the IAM is many workers don't use the plan, and spend every cent today.. Many move on and accumulate only 10-15 years of service. Very few last 35 years.

A;so noted that the retirement medical remains "as is", if that is like the SPEEA plan, it's only in place until one turns 65, then you must go to Medicare. However, again since few actually retire, there is a whole bunch of emotion over a non event.

Unfortunately the loudest voices will be the "gimmee" crowd that seldom stay for the long haul to receive the benefits they demand.


User currently offlinephxa340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 891 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (10 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 16989 times:

It looks like the leaking of news about Mitsu's proposal to manufacture the wings was strategic to scare the unions.

User currently offlinefrmrcapcadet From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1718 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (10 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 16904 times:

It is a historical accident that medical insurance in the US is generally through employment. Back when medical care was not all that expensive (nor all that effective - say until about 1965) it was not a burden on business. That is no longer the case. Not only families, but also businesses go bankrupt over the cost of medical care.

Our current system is utterly inadequate to monitor and keep medical costs under control. We spend close to twice as much as other countries per purchasing power parity (PPP). These high costs are a terrible burden on companies who are in a competitive field. It is outside the scope of this forum and this thread to debate the politics of medical care.

But let it be noted that business and the Chamber of Commerce (and similar groups) have not contributed to a solution to this problem. And the percentage of persons getting pensions and medical care has declined precipitously over the last 25 years. It perhaps needs be noted that about all the major high tech foreign competitors have systems to look after pensions and medical insurance, mostly governmental, but not all. Companies needn't be concerned nor waste management time.

And we have repeatedly the Boeing Company and its Unions going to the mat in a kind of extreme combat mostly over two problems than neither of them can solve. Smart! Solutions are not possible when you refuse to acknowledge intractable problems.

[Edited 2013-11-12 15:27:54]


Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
User currently offlineQANTASvJet From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2012, 78 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (10 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 16846 times:

In answer to the original question - the future is Charlotte.

User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30986 posts, RR: 86
Reply 8, posted (10 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 16848 times:
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Quoting frmrcapcadet (Reply 6):
And we have repeatedly the Boeing Company and its Unions going to the mat in a kind of extreme combat mostly over two problems than neither of them can solve.

But those two issues are the big ones. More than wages, medical and retirement benefits are the cost center that Boeing HR is worried over and those are the two things the Union wants to protect (as they're industry-leading).


Quoting QANTASvJet (Reply 7):
In answer to the original question - the future is Charlotte (North Carolina).

That would be Charleston, South Carolina.  

[Edited 2013-11-12 15:34:44]

User currently offlinefrmrcapcadet From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1718 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (10 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 16735 times:

Stitch - I kind of agree. But would iterate my two longer posts. Companies need to figure out how to control* both medical and pensions, AND ensure that workers have both. A case could be made for expanding Social Security so that it typically would provide 50% or so of wages. If medical expenses were brought down to European and Japanese costs medical would not be all that much of a problem. We are crippling ourselves as a nation allowing these two issues to destroy companies and workers.

*I was tempted to say dump, but some sort of Federal solution and taxes need to replace them. I suspect what it now costs companies to provide pensions and medical would more than support what I have in mind - and it would not go up faster than inflation.



Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
User currently offlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5050 posts, RR: 28
Reply 10, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 16590 times:

Jusf to be clear, the workers in Charleston are screaming to go union again. I knew it would be a matter of time. As for the proposal to the IAM? It is disgusting! A company making incredible profits, threatens workers to accept that garbage? This is the worst proposal Boeing has ever offered. Take this or we put it somewhere else? Pretty nasty tactic if you ask me. If the contract gets voted down, and Boeing moves the work elsewhere, the tax breaks Washington agreed to should be voided.


I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2130 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 16412 times:

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 10):
A company making incredible profits,

This "incredible profit" is a short term windfall. They are battling over long term liabilities.

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 10):
, the tax breaks Washington agreed to should be voided.

I believe the tax break does not depend on the Union vote. But it does depend of whether the 777 FA will be built in Washington.



Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
User currently offlineChaosTheory From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2013, 263 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 16392 times:

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 11):
They are battling over long term liabilities.

In which case management should lead by example and have their remuneration cut.

After all, they're all in the same boat right?


User currently offlinetexl1649 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 296 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 16387 times:

I think the ghost of "old" GM/Chrysler are in the minds of Boeing management today (remember, the union pensioners wound up with ownership there). Giving in periodically to union demands on schedule did not pay off for GM.

Boeing is once again betting the company on the next new model (and missed expensively with the last one). It has to get it's manufacturing costs in order to remain competitive for decades to come.


User currently offlinefrmrcapcadet From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1718 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 16325 times:

Quoting texl1649 (Reply 13):
Boeing is once again betting the company on the next new model (and missed expensively with the last one). It has to get it's manufacturing costs in order to remain competitive for decades to come.

Overruns on actual R and D for the 787 may well have gone as high had most of it been done in Seattle - but the delays, penalties, and c*ck up would like have been largely absent. Some of us think, I know it is old fashioned and out of date, that a skilled workforce is an asset.



Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
User currently offlinetexl1649 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 296 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 16170 times:

Context matters. The decisions to outsource much of the 787 again rest on animosity which is, at least partially, to blame on the union strategies in 2008. Many American manufacturing industries have lost a vast majority of their former strength/jobs due to similar tactics over several decades (steel/auto).

Boeing's strategy (for engineering and outsourcing/remote mfg) has undoubtedly been expensive and error prone. But the market (stock price), and customers (orders), have supported the move. The IAM I would at this point would not see Long Beach/Alabama as the competition, but rather Airbus/China/Japan/BBD/EMB.


User currently onlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13120 posts, RR: 100
Reply 16, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 16144 times:
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I think this will be a close vote:
http://seattletimes.com/html/busines...022237073_boeingmachinistsxml.html

“It’s not a bluff”

Standing near Wroblewski at the signing ceremony, Conner told reporters that if the Machinists reject the company offer, Boeing’s threat to take the work of building its new 777X jet to another state is dead serious.

“It’s not a bluff,” Conner said. “My sincere hope is we don’t have to even think about that. ... Really, we would prefer not to do that.

“Hopefully we’ll get a good vote on Wednesday, then it’s easy,” Conner added. “This is our preference.”


Quoting frmrcapcadet (Reply 2):
Management and labor greatly underestimate how much funding a pension and retirement medical supplemental benefits cost.

At some point reality must be faced and normal business case profit margins acheived.

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 5):

It looks like the leaking of news about Mitsu's proposal to manufacture the wings was strategic to scare the unions.

I would say its more factual. Mitsubishi wants the work and is hungry for it. This is a decision that would save Boeing over a billion USD per year. That isn't scare tactics, that is a business decision. I believe the international union realizes this fact while local 751 does not.

Quoting frmrcapcadet (Reply 6):

It is a historical accident that medical insurance in the US is generally through employment.

Blame Kaiser and their desire to increase ship building productivity (it worked).  
Quoting QANTASvJet (Reply 7):

In answer to the original question - the future is Charlotte.

I'm not as certain. There is an advantage being colocated with engineering. I hope from the 787 Boeing understands those costs better...

Quoting frmrcapcadet (Reply 9):
Companies need to figure out how to control* both medical and pensions, AND ensure that workers have both.

Pensions are too much of a liability. Matched 401Ks are the way to go. As to medical, who would have predicted that over a third of the money goes to the lawyers today? That is unsustainable. The only way to

Quoting frmrcapcadet (Reply 14):
Some of us think, I know it is old fashioned and out of date, that a skilled workforce is an asset.

   But it has a value (or a cost not utilizing it). The goal of Boeing management is to best estimate the cost of doing the work away from the obvious value of the skilled labor force. But the workforce isn't worth an infinite amount. Boeing must be competitive vs. the A35J and probably a longer A35K. We're talking cost differences that will be tens of millions of USD per plane.

Quoting texl1649 (Reply 13):
Boeing is once again betting the company on the next new model (and missed expensively with the last one). It has to get it's manufacturing costs in order to remain competitive for decades to come.

If the old model isn't competitive with the A35J/A35K sales price, what is Boeing to do?

Besides, look at the OP link. If ratified, Boeing will build 1.5*10^6 square feet of more factory floor space! This isn't about using existing production lines, but rather building a new factory. Where is the best business case? Seattle has a natural advantage due to the talent of the labor pool. But that advantage is worth so much.

The plan seems fair. Freeze pensions in 2016 in return for more funds to the retirement accounts. Everyone is going to defined contribution pensions. There is also an increase to a *very* generous 401k matching. Copays go up to today's standard (better than the alternative...). The prescription drug plan is *very* generous too.

Wage increases are small, but local 751 has high wages by industry standards. Boeing must contain costs. That is the only negative by industry standards I see is the rate of wage increases.

I believe this is a fair deal for local 751. In fact, I think Boeing will pay out billions more on the 777X than if Mitsu and Charleston did the work. I do think Boeing will save 1 or 2 billion keeping the work in Seattle vs. any other deal, so that must be factored in the costs.

Quoting texl1649 (Reply 13):
Giving in periodically to union demands on schedule did not pay off for GM.

   or work allocation...


Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinetexl1649 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 296 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 16057 times:

I did not intend to imply that the aircrafts themselves are uncompetitive, but that the outsourcing/remote mfg efforts combined were very costly (clearly not "lose the company" costly though).

Labor's colllective decision here (and elsewhere) to politicize in favor of one party/healthcare bill while running away from participating in the markets their bill has produced is a bit amusing.

My family members in UT/TX are certainly all hoping this plays out with a strong no vote!


User currently onlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13120 posts, RR: 100
Reply 18, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 16040 times:
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Quoting texl1649 (Reply 17):
My family members in UT/TX are certainly all hoping this plays out with a strong no vote!

Will Boeing send work to them?  


Yes, Obamacare makes the 'old school' health plans far more expensive. The cost burden must be shared. But overall, Boeing very fair. This is a generous offer when considering how much Boeing's costs have gone up.


Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11670 posts, RR: 33
Reply 19, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 15916 times:

Voting is in progress.

Quote:
The mood was grim Wednesday as Machinists voted on a proposed Boeing contract extension that could determine whether Boeing builds a major new jet in Washington state.

Union members expressed resentment, anger and betrayal as they walked into Machinists District Lodge 751’s brick headquarters to cast their ballots. The outcome won't be clear until the votes are tallied around 9 p.m.
http://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/n...hinists-angry-as-they-vote-on.html


Huge turnout in #777X vote by IAM. Lines wrap all the way around Everett lodge. by Jon Ostrower, on Flickr



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11670 posts, RR: 33
Reply 20, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 15860 times:

This one is quite funny:

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BY9tGdXCAAAcdXS.jpg:large



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30986 posts, RR: 86
Reply 21, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 15817 times:
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Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 20):
This one is quite funny:


Considering how many folks shop at WalMart...   

And if the WalMart plane means cheaper fares (thanks to lower purchase price for the airlines)...   


User currently offlineredflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4327 posts, RR: 28
Reply 22, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 15776 times:

Quoting frmrcapcadet (Reply 14):
Some of us think, I know it is old fashioned and out of date, that a skilled workforce is an asset.

A skilled workforce is an asset. But the problem (for the unions) is that standardization techniques, QA, training, Six Sigma, etc., are all intended to be able to replicate a skill in just about any location by establishing a minimum threshold. High tech is also becoming the norm, not the exception. Decades ago high tech industries were a form of black art bastions and they were concentrated in a few geographies. Nowadays, college degrees are the norm and cutting edge technologies can be spearheaded just about anywhere with some investment. Long gone are the days when aircraft manufacturing could be done only in one or two locations. Charleston is proof of this new age.

The problem with unions is that they are a relic of the past - a past that no longer exists. They are an anachronism. Strong labor laws have eliminated a lot of the need for a union, such that they are now competing against themselves in an economy that is experiencing 7.8% unemployment and a society that is spitting out educated workers willing to do the job of the union man for a third less than what he is getting paid and a fraction of the benefits. The sooner the IAM members realize this the sooner they can secure their jobs long term in Puget Sound.



My other home is a Piper Cherokee 180C
User currently offlinetexl1649 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 296 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 15747 times:

That is funny KarelXWB. The public also doesn't want 10-abreast 777's I guess. But they are voting with their ticket purchases, and always have.

I especially like that his sign is held up on one end by duct tape. (Probably from Wal Mart, made in china).


User currently offlineER757 From Cayman Islands, joined May 2005, 2525 posts, RR: 7
Reply 24, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 15664 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 20):

That is funny  

Thing is though "the public" aren't the ones buying these 9 figure machines so the point is somewhat moot.


User currently onlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13120 posts, RR: 100
Reply 25, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 15927 times:
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I wonder what a no vote would mean for the 777X. I'm serious. Since they already build the 787 wings, Mitsu should be able to build 777X wings for less (in particular with the 'Ro-Ro' concept). Heck, it should cut 787 wing costs (at least to Seattle.)

Am I the only one expecting a 'NO' vote? Note: I do not consider that a good thing.

Layoffs are coming. My old employer is downsizing 8% of their workforce (and will probably downsize another 4% in six months).   My father's employer that he retired from is laying off 18% of their workforce in 60 days... It is ugly out there.

Wait, this contract has a COLA rider! Guaranteed better pay than the cost of living. I'd take that!

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 19):
Voting is in progress.

Thank you.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 19):
Union members expressed resentment, anger and betrayal as they walked into Machinists District Lodge 751%u2019s brick headquarters to cast their ballots. The outcome won't be clear until the votes are tallied around 9 p.m.

The union expressed the same emotions last time and in reality just struck to prove a point and really messed up the VA launch among others. In the end, the signed contract wasn't much different from the rejected contract.

Quoting ER757 (Reply 24):
Thing is though "the public" aren't the ones buying these 9 figure machines so the point is somewhat moot.

  

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30986 posts, RR: 86
Reply 26, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 15850 times:
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Quoting lightsaber (Reply 25):
I wonder what a no vote would mean for the 777X.

I expect it depends on how close the vote is.

If the difference is less than 10%, I expect both sides to re-negotiate and come up with an acceptable compromise.

If the difference is greater than 20%, I expect Boeing will conclude IAM 751 is not willing to negotiate and will start actively engaging other states and municipalities, as well as looking at Mitsubishi's offer (especially if NH orders the 777X). I also think they'll look at a new primary FAL site for the 737 MAX, as they can expect the IAM 751 to strike in 2016.

Last I read, IAM 751 have scheduled initial media contacts around 7:30PM Pacific.

[Edited 2013-11-13 19:08:42]

User currently onlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13120 posts, RR: 100
Reply 27, posted (10 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 16141 times:
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Quoting Stitch (Reply 26):
If the difference is less than 10%, I expect both sides to re-negotiate and come up with an acceptable compromise.

I think Boeing will look at Mitsubishi's offer if there is any no vote. I would assume they would also look at some of the other state offers. Jobs are scarce right now. I'm certain Washington state's offer could be beaten. But I'm only talking wings and certain sub assemblies. I personally would be shocked if body or final assembly moves.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 26):
I also think they'll look at a new primary FAL site for the 737 MAX, as they can expect the IAM 751 to strike in 2016.

They can only look starting in 2016. Until then, the contract prohibits Boeing doing anything substantial. If this contract is approved, 737MAX production is secure in Washington.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30986 posts, RR: 86
Reply 28, posted (10 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 16076 times:
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Quoting lightsaber (Reply 27):
If this contract is approved, 737MAX production is secure in Washington.

Indeed it will be, but if they vote no, Boeing could just renege on the promise since I can't see IAM 751 giving any ground.

However, Dominic Gates at The Seattle Times believes IAM 751 will reject it based on the mood of those who voted "No". Should know shortly as the last ballots are being counted (8:10PM PST).

[Edited 2013-11-13 20:40:07]

User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30986 posts, RR: 86
Reply 29, posted (10 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 16009 times:
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Still no official word, but it could be as much as 2 to 1 against the proposal. The "No" votes were very...aggressive...with their peers and they're currently giving IAM officials a fair bit of flak for supporting the proposal.

User currently offlinephxa340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 891 posts, RR: 1
Reply 30, posted (10 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 16016 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 29):
Still no official word, but it could be as much as 2 to 1 against the proposal.

If thats the case, WA can kiss the 777X good bye. IAM members need a reality check. They are simply not competitive in 2013. The skills that they possess can and will be duplicated elsewhere. Ironically one of the most vocal critics they interviewed was a forklift driver ....


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30986 posts, RR: 86
Reply 31, posted (10 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 16000 times:
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Quoting phxa340 (Reply 30):
If thats the case, WA can kiss the 777X good bye. IAM members need a reality check. They are simply not competitive in 2013. The skills that they possess can and will be duplicated elsewhere.

Based on the comments, the "No" votes believe Boeing can't afford to let them go and that the 787 fiasco proved they're too valuable to leave behind and that Boeing management is not serious about moving. The "Yes" votes accept that they can be replaced, so they're willing to accept concessions for long-term stability.

Regardless, it seems certain that the union has rejected the contract. The only question is by how much.

[Edited 2013-11-13 21:00:09]

User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30986 posts, RR: 86
Reply 32, posted (10 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 15967 times:
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IAM 751 has rejected the contract offer by a massive margin - 67% against.

User currently offlinetimpdx From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 554 posts, RR: 0
Reply 33, posted (10 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 15969 times:

IAM voted it DOWN as per the live Seattle Times blog.

67% no


User currently onlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13120 posts, RR: 100
Reply 34, posted (10 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 15941 times:
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Quoting Stitch (Reply 28):
Indeed it will be, but if they vote no, Boeing could just renege on the promise since I can't see IAM 751 giving any ground.

They could. After 2016.

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 30):
If thats the case, WA can kiss the 777X good bye.

Agreed.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 31):
Regardless, it seems certain that the union has rejected the contract. The only question is by how much.

Is it rejected? I'm staying up to find out the results and see no information.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinetimpdx From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 554 posts, RR: 0
Reply 35, posted (10 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 15898 times:

lightsaber go to the Seattle Times website. results in. the proposal went down hard.

User currently offlinetortugamon From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 3446 posts, RR: 10
Reply 36, posted (10 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 15949 times:

That is a 2:1 margin. Hard to see how that big of a gap can be overcome.

Next stop Japan. Was really looking forward to a story about cutting edge technology coming back. Looks unlikely.

tortugamon


User currently offlinephxa340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 891 posts, RR: 1
Reply 37, posted (10 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 15950 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 32):

Unreal. Well I understand why they did it, but they aren't basing their demands to align with current market conditions. I hope Boeing picks Long Beach, I have many qualified friends that would love the work down here and kill for the benefits the IAM just turned down.


User currently offlineblrsea From India, joined May 2005, 1423 posts, RR: 3
Reply 38, posted (10 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 15955 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 34):
Is it rejected? I'm staying up to find out the results and see no information.

On komo news site ...

Boeing machinists reject contentious contract proposal

excerpt ...

Quote:
...
Boeing machinists overwhelmingly rejected a contentious contract proposal Wednesday night that would have exchanged concessions for decades of secure jobs.

When the ballots were counted, 67 percent of the machinists voted "no" on the contract.
...


[Edited 2013-11-13 21:14:28]

User currently offlinephxa340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 891 posts, RR: 1
Reply 39, posted (10 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 15926 times:

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 36):

I wouldn't expect Boeing to come back to the negotiating table with that margin.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30986 posts, RR: 86
Reply 40, posted (10 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 15940 times:
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Quoting tortugamon (Reply 36):
Next stop Japan.

Not necessarily Japan, but I would not be surprised if Boeing sites the 777X assembly outside of PAE. I could see them choosing someplace other than CHS just for redundancy purposes (should a natural or physical disaster affect plant operations).


User currently offlinetortugamon From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 3446 posts, RR: 10
Reply 41, posted (10 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 15785 times:

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 39):

You may be right.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 40):

I was referring to the wings at least. I do expect the FAL to be in the YS as well.

tortugamon


User currently offlineStuckInCA From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1961 posts, RR: 0
Reply 42, posted (10 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 15846 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 32):
IAM 751 has rejected the contract offer by a massive margin - 67% against.

Wow. Those guys are shockingly out of touch with reality.

I have a bad feeling this will have a noticeable impact on this regions economy in the future.


User currently onlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5467 posts, RR: 6
Reply 43, posted (10 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 15729 times:

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 39):
I wouldn't expect Boeing to come back to the negotiating table with that margin.

We'll see. I got the sense the union members were as upset about the process as they were about the actual terms of the offer. I'm sure Boeing will at least be talking to union leadership to understand what the membership thinks. If the concessions needed to bring the union around are small and/or mostly stylistic, they may have another go. If the membership will only accept something much costlier, then off to Alabama (or wherever) it is.

[Edited 2013-11-13 22:08:41]

User currently offline707lvr From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 585 posts, RR: 2
Reply 44, posted (10 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 15607 times:

The title of this thread, something about future .. union .. Boeing? Call it OVER. We've known that for some time as Seattle moved on when the Company left town.

User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11670 posts, RR: 33
Reply 45, posted (10 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 15380 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 32):
IAM 751 has rejected the contract offer by a massive margin - 67% against.

Honestly, I never believed they would massively vote against it because in the end, you still want to have a job in the future (IMO).

[Edited 2013-11-14 00:52:14]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30986 posts, RR: 86
Reply 46, posted (10 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 15366 times:
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Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 45):
Honestly, I never believed they would massively vote against it because in the end, you still want to have a job in the future (IMO).

Well they appear to believe Boeing is bluffing and that their jobs are safe so they should not have to accept that level of concessions. *shrug*


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11670 posts, RR: 33
Reply 47, posted (10 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 15376 times:

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 39):
I wouldn't expect Boeing to come back to the negotiating table with that margin.
Quoting seabosdca (Reply 43):
We'll see.

Well, Boeing execs are already heading to other states, so it seems.

http://twitter.com/GlennFarley/status/400870055434391552

[Edited 2013-11-14 01:15:38]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently onlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13120 posts, RR: 100
Reply 48, posted (10 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 15343 times:
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I now give the odds of 777X wing production being outside Washington at 50%+. This isn't over, but the message is clear.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 32):

IAM 751 has rejected the contract offer by a massive margin - 67% against.

Wow... Just wow. That is a clear message.

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 42):
I have a bad feeling this will have a noticeable impact on this regions economy in the future.

The region will do fine with Amazon, Microsoft, and other tech companies. I still do not think Boeing will move 777 body assembly out of the region. However, wing production/assembly is now more likely to go than to stay.

Quoting timpdx (Reply 35):

lightsaber go to the Seattle Times website. results in. the proposal went down hard.

Yep.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 36):

That is a 2:1 margin. Hard to see how that big of a gap can be overcome.

I'm not sure its worth trying at this juncture for Boeing. The union membership is demanding a line be held that isn't going to be (not sharing health care costs and terminating defined benefit pensions). On the 777X, it isn't worth coming back to the negotiating table until other bids have been solicited.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 46):
Well they appear to believe Boeing is bluffing and that their jobs are safe so they should not have to accept that level of concessions. *shrug*

Yep. They union made their decision. Now it is for Boeing to make their decision. This time, there is no strike. This time Boeing has a few years to organize and show if they were bluffing or not when the contract expires in 2016.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 45):
I never believed they would massively vote against it because in the end, you still want to have a job in the future (IMO).

I thought it would be defeated, but not by this margin. I expected a compromise that would allow local #751 to declare a victory (e.g., continue the pension a year or two more), but this is such a resounding message that it isn't even worth considering coming back to the table for a year.

Airlines should be aware in 2016 this certainly means a strike.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineMtnWest1979 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 2458 posts, RR: 1
Reply 49, posted (10 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 15296 times:

Well it won't be CHS IMO, since they stated (whether truly or not, I don't know), that they are thinking LGB,HSV or UT. They say CHS is out due to need to focus n 787 production and whatnot.
I told guys at work this afternoon I guessed it would fail 69-31%, so was close.

Anyway, good luck to them and whatever happens.



"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
User currently offlineangmoh From Singapore, joined Nov 2011, 488 posts, RR: 0
Reply 50, posted (10 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 15250 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 48):
Yep. They union made their decision. Now it is for Boeing to make their decision. This time, there is no strike. This time Boeing has a few years to organize and show if they were bluffing or not when the contract expires in 2016.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 45):
I never believed they would massively vote against it because in the end, you still want to have a job in the future (IMO).

I thought it would be defeated, but not by this margin. I expected a compromise that would allow local #751 to declare a victory (e.g., continue the pension a year or two more), but this is such a resounding message that it isn't even worth considering coming back to the table for a year.

I could not see any other outcome than this one. Boeing trying to force the issue and local #751 been given the option of either take the hard line today or give up the negotiating position for the next 10 years or more. When you have a cornered cat, it is going to fight even if your intention is to bring it to the vet to get cured of a disease.

When you have 2 unreasonable parties trying to play a game of chicken, it can only end up in tears. I think the game of chicken is far from finished because I also don't believe that in the timeframe they are looking at there is another site which will be able to deliver the 777X at the rate demanded by the market.

Long term, the Puget Sound area is dead unless Boeing ever enters chapter 11 to break the current cycle of mutual destruction between management and unions.


User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4737 posts, RR: 39
Reply 51, posted (10 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 15087 times:
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Quoting Stitch (Reply 32):
IAM 751 has rejected the contract offer by a massive margin - 67% against.

That number surprises me. This is a very high-stakes poker game which can have sour grapes for the losing party. It looks like a dangerous "game".


User currently offlinemjoelnir From Iceland, joined Feb 2013, 1449 posts, RR: 2
Reply 52, posted (10 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 15061 times:

Boeing is running a double game.

When they talk to the investors and make there Financial Statements the world is rosy future is assured. That keeps the investors happy and gives management good salaries and bonuses.

Than they talk to the unions and the future is bleak, if Boeing can not cut costs and especially cut workers compensation, than the world will crash.

I think the main problem with all this pensions and health care is bad accounting.
If you move the cost for work compensation to the future, by not paying it out but rather giving promises about pensions and healthcare, than you can keep up profits now and let the next generation worry about the cost.

We see it in government as well as in companies, giving pension rights nobody cares about if it will be possible to fulfill them because you do not have to pay out now.

The problem with the pensions in the USA automobile industry was not the pension, but the way they were accounted for in the financial statements. Moving costs from the present to the future is general accepted practice, but in the USA one should take a deep look at this practice.

If a company or the government or a town make pension promises, than the cost should be booked at the time the work is done as part of the salary costs.
There are no reasons not to use the right numbers, as there are good mathematical and/or statistical models used at pension funds to estimate the amount of money needed to pay a certain pension.

I understand a union not accepting pay cuts while the company demanding them puts out favorable financial statements.

IMO regarding Boeing moving the work from Washington State to some green field, the current management will be long gone when the problems regarding building up a new skilled work force will occur.


User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6907 posts, RR: 46
Reply 53, posted (10 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 15056 times:

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 41):
I do expect the FAL to be in the YS as well.

Is that the Yankee States? I did not know New England was in contention, but if so, maybe I'll get a job there. 
Quoting seabosdca (Reply 43):
We'll see. I got the sense the union members were as upset about the process as they were about the actual terms of the offer. I'm sure Boeing will at least be talking to union leadership to understand what the membership thinks. If the concessions needed to bring the union around are small and/or mostly stylistic, they may have another go. If the membership will only accept something much costlier, then off to Alabama (or wherever) it is.

With this big a margin it indicates that the Union management is out of touch with the members. If this was a one-time event I could see Boeing trying some more negotiations, but with the history of bad blood going back so long I expect that management has had it with the IAM. My guess is that they are not looking back, and focusing on where the 777X will be built elsewhere. And I expect them to move everything they possibly can.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 48):
I still do not think Boeing will move 777 body assembly out of the region. However, wing production/assembly is now more likely to go than to stay.

I do. I expect that Boeing has made the decision that everything that can be moved out of WA will be moved. And that includes all future new projects. I see this as a declaration of war, and ultimately the union is going to lose. But it will be very painful for Boeing as well.



The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlinetexl1649 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 296 posts, RR: 0
Reply 54, posted (10 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 14932 times:

I am proud of Boeing for being committed to a proactive strategy vs. a hostile union that doesn't care about the welfare of the company/ownership long term.

Very different from our regionalized domestic auto/steel industry manufacturing companies of days gone by. It will be expensive for them to win this war but at least they are fighting it.

Now, if prognosticators are correct and NSA does launch inside of the next 10 years, will only the KC-767 be in plausible production in WA in 15-20 years?


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30986 posts, RR: 86
Reply 55, posted (10 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 14945 times:
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If Boeing Commercial does decide that leaving WA is the correct path, then the 777X and 737 MAX are the two logical first projects to go, followed by moving all 787 production to CHS.

That would leave the 747, 767 and 777 at PAE until the 747 and 777 programs are closed, at which point the 767 program would move out of state to continue KC-46 production. Same with the 737NG and military 737 production at Renton until those programs are closed. At that point, Boeing need only determine how long they can reasonably expect those programs to need to wind down and offer IAM 751 a no-loss / no-gain contract (essentially, they keep what they have) for that time period to avert a strike. That way, when that contract comes up, the lines close and you fire all the machinists.

Boeing would then sell their remaining facilities at Renton and Everett for commercial and residential development and Boeing Commercial HQ would move to wherever the largest commercial presence is in another state.

[Edited 2013-11-14 05:27:34]

User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11670 posts, RR: 33
Reply 56, posted (10 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 14903 times:

Quoting texl1649 (Reply 54):
Now, if prognosticators are correct and NSA does launch inside of the next 10 years, will only the KC-767 be in plausible production in WA in 15-20 years?

I assume the current 787 line will also stay in WA for a long time, and maybe the USAF could line-up for the KC-777.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineredflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4327 posts, RR: 28
Reply 57, posted (10 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 14769 times:

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 39):
I wouldn't expect Boeing to come back to the negotiating table with that margin.

Agreed. That kind of margin is the ultimate "F&^% You".

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 42):
I have a bad feeling this will have a noticeable impact on this regions economy in the future.

I don't think it will. The job attrition at Boeing will occur over a number of years and this part of the country is highly diversified. The jobs will remain in the region, but they will go to different industries.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 48):
I still do not think Boeing will move 777 body assembly out of the region. However, wing production/assembly is now more likely to go than to stay.


Why wouldn't they use this opportunity to set up a different FAL in another state/region? Inasmuch as I think Boeing execs wanted this deal to work - since it would have meant this is one less (huge) issue to deal with regarding start-up of the 777X project - it does give them reason to continue moving the center of gravity for commercial production out of the Northwest. A decade from now the union's strikes will no longer be as disruptive, or put fear into Boeing or their customers. And two decades from now they will be a thing of the past entirely.



My other home is a Piper Cherokee 180C
User currently onlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13120 posts, RR: 100
Reply 58, posted (10 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 14718 times:
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Quoting angmoh (Reply 50):
When you have 2 unreasonable parties trying to play a game of chicken, it can only end up in tears.

But what if one party was upfront? IAM 751 is a very militant union. I believe the offer made was fair. I am with others in believing Boeing will move all work possible out of the region. The difference is I estimate it will cost less (at least short term) to keep the FAL where it is and instead move other work.

Quoting angmoh (Reply 50):
I also don't believe that in the timeframe they are looking at there is another site which will be able to deliver the 777X at the rate demanded by the market.

Agreed. Not without a lot of cost and risk.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 53):
I expect that Boeing has made the decision that everything that can be moved out of WA will be moved. And that includes all future new projects. I see this as a declaration of war, and ultimately the union is going to lose. But it will be very painful for Boeing as well.
Quoting redflyer (Reply 57):
Why wouldn't they use this opportunity to set up a different FAL in another state/region?

SEPilot and redflyer, it comes down to costs as to why they won't be likely to move. Moving the FAL has risk that will be expressed as a cost. It will also cost money to move certain equipment and have manufacturing away from the concentration of engineering talent. Its possible the FAL will be moved, but the tax incentives to move it away would have to be high. There would be a cost to wind down one FAL and spool up another. I think, despite the union issues, it would be cheaper for Boeing to keep the FAL in place.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7560 posts, RR: 18
Reply 59, posted (10 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 14731 times:

My take- Welcome to Japan, Boeing, and your 77X wing production team  


Also: I smell a BUNCH of lobbying from Nikki Haley and Jan Brewer about expanding the plant in South Carolina, or opening a plant of something in Phoenix, probably at Gateway Airport....I can just smell it. Seriously. It SMELLS of lobbying for this. And frankly, it's almost inevitable they're gonna open something new somewhere else.



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlinetortugamon From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 3446 posts, RR: 10
Reply 60, posted (10 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 14570 times:

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 53):
Is that the Yankee States?

If only auto-correct was better on my iPad. That was a U not a Y for US as in, in the United States. Looks like you don't have to worry about moving yet  .

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 53):
My guess is that they are not looking back, and focusing on where the 777X will be built elsewhere.

I think so. I think there will be plenty of takers too.

Boeing has to know that in 2016 they will then have a gun to their heads on the next labor contract. It makes sense that they may want to break that cycle. I still think FAL in WA is realistic but I think Boeing will look long and hard at moving it. If they move the 777x and if in three years time there is another project with which to negotiate (757 replacement) maybe they can avoid a strike.

I wonder how many executives have a 10 year stare when thinking about what is best for the company. Many will be retired by then and they could just push the can down the road. However, long term shareholders have to be thinking that these unions are not in the company's best interest and a move makes sense.

When a critical mass is outside of WA I imagine the dynamics of contract negotiations will change.

tortugamon


User currently offlineDTW2HYD From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 1954 posts, RR: 0
Reply 61, posted (10 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 14548 times:

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 36):
Next stop Japan.

Not likely. They will have at least Republican support if they move to North Charleston, SC. Otherwise Boeing will have no friends in DC. I was even surprised to see Ray LaHood standing next to Boeing for B787 grounding announcement after the Boeing/NLRB fiasco.


User currently offlinetortugamon From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 3446 posts, RR: 10
Reply 62, posted (10 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 14440 times:

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 61):
Not likely.

I was referring to the wings. I see the wings being built in Japan as very likely at this point.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 61):
They will have at least Republican support if they move to North Charleston, SC. Otherwise Boeing will have no friends in DC.

SC does not have to do with DC. And they don't need federal support they need state concessions. The DC relationship is well managed with their well compensated lobbying efforts. Why would a republic senator from Arizona care about a FAL in SC?

Boeing represents 170,000 employees and US heavy manufacturing in the US, they have plenty of friends in DC and as they are listening to opportunities to move the FAL they are going to start to have even more friends in states like CA, UT, AL, and SC.

tortugamon


User currently offlinetexl1649 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 296 posts, RR: 0
Reply 63, posted (10 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 14372 times:

unlike the union, the company has to be careful and play both sides of the isle in DC. I suspect California wwill wind up as a "surprising" favorite.

User currently offlinehivue From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 1077 posts, RR: 0
Reply 64, posted (10 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 14385 times:

So how daring would Boeing want to be moving final assembly completely out of WA for a product as high volume as the 777X looks like it's eventually going to be given that they're still working through something of a debacle with another program where they took the daring approach? Is the IAM counting on the company to be still smarting from the 787-8 and in the end pulling in their horns and taking the more conservative route?

User currently onlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5467 posts, RR: 6
Reply 65, posted (10 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 14400 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 55):
If Boeing Commercial does decide that leaving WA is the correct path, then the 777X and 737 MAX are the two logical first projects to go

Boeing promised the MAX to Renton in the last contract.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 53):
With this big a margin it indicates that the Union management is out of touch with the members.

The International largely negotiated this on its own. There may have been a different result had it seen fit to get local leadership involved at the negotiation stage. Again, the membership seems very upset about the process, and I can't say I blame them.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 58):
I believe the offer made was fair.

I can't agree. The pension cut is a necessary, but large, concession. In a time of record profits, if you ask for a concession, you need to offer something in return, other than "we won't close shop." This offer had absolutely nothing in return. I would feel differently if Boeing were under financial pressure.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 58):
it comes down to costs as to why they won't be likely to move.

   They will move anyway if they can't get the right deal from the union. But the cost of moving will be high enough that I expect the parties to take one more crack at this, probably after Boeing has some offers from other states on the table and can demonstrate those options to the union. I hope this time the members are kept better informed; I think that would go a long way toward securing a deal.


User currently offlinetortugamon From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 3446 posts, RR: 10
Reply 66, posted (10 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 14365 times:

Quoting texl1649 (Reply 63):
I suspect California wwill wind up as a "surprising" favorite.

Why? California has higher real estate costs, higher wages, higher taxes, more environmental restrictions, and an altogether worse business environment. It would be nice to have them next to the white collar aerospace community that still exists in SO-CAL but I don't see these blue collar jobs being located there.

Boeing just bought 320 acres at the Charleston airport for $13 million a couple months ago. That is $40k an acre.

I don't see CA as the likely target no matter how much would love to see it.

tortugamon


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30986 posts, RR: 86
Reply 67, posted (10 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 14338 times:
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Quoting seabosdca (Reply 65):
Boeing promised the MAX to Renton in the last contract.

Yes, but they don't have to keep that promise.

That being said, I would not be surprised if they source a second 737 MAX FAL outside of WA. The IAM contract will be coming up for renegotiation just as the MAX is entering serial production and if Boeing does not secure a new contract before then, then they have to be worried the IAM will strike and that could seriously impact the program EIS.

[Edited 2013-11-14 08:21:03]

User currently offlinefrmrcapcadet From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1718 posts, RR: 1
Reply 68, posted (10 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 14339 times:

The 67percent vote was against a specific proposal. Not another one. If Boeing and other companies want to get out of the pension and medical business they need to support governmental proposals that would do that. They did not.


Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3074 posts, RR: 7
Reply 69, posted (10 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 14295 times:

Quoting texl1649 (Reply 54):
I am proud of Boeing for being committed to a proactive strategy vs. a hostile union that doesn't care about the welfare of the company/ownership long term.

You have no idea what you are talking about. The people at Boeing care about the product and the company. People take it personally if a big sales campaign is lost.


User currently offlinediverdave From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 331 posts, RR: 0
Reply 70, posted (10 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 14203 times:

Quoting MtnWest1979 (Reply 49):
Well it won't be CHS IMO, since they stated (whether truly or not, I don't know), that they are thinking LGB,HSV or UT.

We can only hope. It would be amazing to have two aircraft assembly operations in Alabama.  Wow!

David


User currently offlineDTW2HYD From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 1954 posts, RR: 0
Reply 71, posted (10 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 14105 times:

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 62):
I was referring to the wings. I see the wings being built in Japan as very likely at this point.

Wings may be a possibility. Personally I would like Boeing to source even wings from USA.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 62):
Boeing represents 170,000 employees and US heavy manufacturing in the US, they have plenty of friends in DC and as they are listening to opportunities to move the FAL they are going to start to have even more friends in states like CA, UT, AL, and SC.

My comment was about Boeing management, employees sure do have lot of friends in DC. If at all they move out of WA they will move to SC(already established),AL(existing pool of workers from Airbus). CA is too much to deal with for any manufacturer.


User currently offlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2130 posts, RR: 4
Reply 72, posted (10 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 14061 times:

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 66):
more environmental restrictions,

For final assy, the environmental issue they face would be no different from what they faced today with the C-17 line (only in a larger volume). Maybe they can get some get out of jail free card though a grand father clause.

Fabricating the wing however is a different issue. The autoclave exhaust may be an environmental issue.

bt



Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
User currently offlinekanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 3551 posts, RR: 26
Reply 73, posted (10 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 14026 times:
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Quoting seabosdca (Reply 65):
The pension cut is a necessary, but large, concession.

Really? 80% of those voting will never stay on the job long enough to retire. When they go to other industries, they will find the benefits are very similar to what Boeing offered.

Some one mentioned retaining a mature skilled workforce, earlier someone noted that with the various quality programs, the need for innovative skills have been substantially reduced. The IAM like the railroad unions will want a fireman in the cab long after the need his eliminated, in this case through robotics, standardized parts, and subcontractor assembly. the union is still stuck in the 60's manufacturing everything and fitting parts with a lead hammer mode.

I think the FAL will stay in Everett, however those 747's boeing bought are probably headed to China for mod into larger LCF's for component transport. I would to be surprised to see the fuselage sections assembled and stuffed at the current panel fabrication contractors and flown in. The IAM will have to be content with having only 30% or less of it's current 777 workforce retain positions on the new model.


User currently offlinedrew777 From United States of America, joined Oct 2013, 80 posts, RR: 0
Reply 74, posted (10 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 13908 times:

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 71):
AL(existing pool of workers from Airbus

I wouldn't count on that. Mobile and Huntsville are 350 miles apart. Airbus hasn't even started hiring production workers yet, so the pool of workers in mobile won't be highly experienced by the time Boeing is looking to hire them. Besides, if they offer the same compensation as they are in SC, I doubt there would be many takers. That is based on my assumption that Airbus will offer decent pay and benefits.

Locating to Huntsville could be very good for Boeing though. The area is overflowing with engineers of every skill. The state will offer huge tax benefits, worker training, and cash incentives. It has great weather. I don't think they'd have an issue getting employees they deem essential to relocate there.


User currently offlinetexl1649 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 296 posts, RR: 0
Reply 75, posted (10 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 13826 times:

Remember the one thing McD was exceptionally good at was distributing production to many states as with the c17. That is why it outlived USAF requirements by almost ten years. Politics does matter. Sometimes more than labor.

User currently offlinesonomaflyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1796 posts, RR: 0
Reply 76, posted (10 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 13751 times:
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So it boils down to a couple of main issues, pension versus defined benefit plan and contribution to health care. The Union's own website has its literature slanted in favor of the deal yet the president of the union physically tore up the agreement to a cheering crowd.

I don't blame workers for pushing as far as they can but pensions are going the way of the dodo and Boeing isn't about to veer out of the mainstream in terms of 401ks and a balanced structure on health benefits (those costs are rising at an insane rate).


User currently offlineSSTeve From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 706 posts, RR: 1
Reply 77, posted (10 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 13760 times:

Quoting drew777 (Reply 74):

Locating to Huntsville could be very good for Boeing though. The area is overflowing with engineers of every skill. The state will offer huge tax benefits, worker training, and cash incentives. It has great weather. I don't think they'd have an issue getting employees they deem essential to relocate there.

I'm probably not alone in preferring the Western Washington weather. It appears that Huntsville has much worse summers and worse winters.


User currently offlinetortugamon From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 3446 posts, RR: 10
Reply 78, posted (10 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 13724 times:

Quoting SSTeve (Reply 77):
I'm probably not alone in preferring the Western Washington weather.

Just looking at the past couple of months and the number of days that Everett has not been able to fly because of low ceiling and other weather concerns makes me think that Western WA is not the most ideal location. It was for the flying boats used to make but not for commercial airliners.

Not sure why AL could be worse? You have hurricanes and tornadoes but (more northwest of Huntsville though) but its weather is much more predictable and many more clear days than Everett.

tortugamon


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 977 posts, RR: 51
Reply 79, posted (10 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 13727 times:

Quoting hivue (Reply 64):
So how daring would Boeing want to be moving final assembly completely out of WA for a product as high volume as the 777X looks like it's eventually going to be given that they're still working through something of a debacle with another program where they took the daring approach?

Not daring at all. The 787 was a debacle because Boeing had never managed an airplane program that way before. Now they've done it and they know how to countermeasure the risks.

Quoting sonomaflyer (Reply 76):
I don't blame workers for pushing as far as they can but pensions are going the way of the dodo and Boeing isn't about to veer out of the mainstream in terms of 401ks

Agree completely. Know when to pick your battles, fight them hard, but stay attached to reality. There is no competitive reason to offer pensions in 2013, and I personally wouldn't want one anyway. Give me a matched 401K over an I-O-U any day.


User currently offlinetortugamon From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 3446 posts, RR: 10
Reply 80, posted (10 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 13688 times:

A King 5 reporter is saying that Boeing has indicated that they will not engage in negotiations with the union again until 2016. If Boeing does decide to build the 777x in WA it appears that they will do so without a labor agreement extension.

tortugamon


User currently offlinediverdave From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 331 posts, RR: 0
Reply 81, posted (10 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 13639 times:

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 78):
Not sure why AL could be worse? You have hurricanes and tornadoes but (more northwest of Huntsville though) but its weather is much more predictable and many more clear days than Everett.

 

Plus we don't have to worry about about the 3rd most dangerous (but still beautiful) volcano in the U.S.

http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2003592844_rainier28m.html

nor do we have to worry about lahars.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=94244

More seriously, Boeing already has a couple of thousand space and defense workers in the area. If they need more land near the airport or incentives, you can bet the city and state will provide it PDQ.

KHSV has two long runways ready for use: 18R/36L is 12,600 by 150 feet (3,840 x 46 m) and 18L/36R is 10,006 by 150 feet (3,050 x 46 m).

David


User currently offlinesonomaflyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1796 posts, RR: 0
Reply 82, posted (10 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 13420 times:
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Huntsville I'm sure would work just fine but Boeing would need to build a FAL from scratch, tool it, hire workers and ramp it up. I'm guessing the bean counters in Chicago are working hard to chart out all the scenarios (adjust the proposals with the WA union versus building a new facility for the 777X).

Alabama I'm sure would help out in lots of ways as Washington offered to do.

Hopefully, there can be quiet back channel talks between the union and Boeing to try to bridge the gaps and get a deal done. Keeping the production in Washington would be the least risky for Boeing and the last thing Boeing needs is to load up more risk while they are trying to sort out the 787.


User currently offlinetortugamon From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 3446 posts, RR: 10
Reply 83, posted (10 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 13374 times:

Quoting sonomaflyer (Reply 82):
the last thing Boeing needs is to load up more risk while they are trying to sort out the 787.

I personally believe there will be about 1,000 787s flying before the 777x enters service. There is so much time separating them that I don't think there will be that much impact.

If the 787-10 and the 777x are both built exclusively in Charleston there might be more hiccups there as they are relatively close together but then again it could also allow for a cohesive transition from one new plane to another and may aid in the process. Too hard to tell.

tortugamon


User currently offlinetexl1649 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 296 posts, RR: 0
Reply 84, posted (10 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 13354 times:

It's the 21st century. Engineering doesn't have to be co-located with manufacturing. Is that how Airbus does it? Or, for that matter, does Bell do it's engineering in Amarillo? What about the Chinese, do they do engineering work adjacent to their production facilities?

No, the smart thing to do in industry today is to build a corporate management separate from the manufacturing and engineering resources so that no 'good ol' boys' insider ball gets played. The company interests should always come first.

Furthermore, in the US, we have fewer engineering graduates than at any point in the last 50 years. Work for Boeing remains coveted and starting positions in a low cost of living area (Southeastern US) are if anything ideal for these younger engineers. The older NW Boeing engineering hands, to the extent they will be employed on the 777x project (remember BA already announced engineering work on this wouldn't be out of WA), won't wind up getting moved to the prospective new FAL, by and large.


User currently offlineBoeEngr From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 321 posts, RR: 35
Reply 85, posted (10 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 13329 times:

Quoting texl1649 (Reply 84):
It's the 21st century. Engineering doesn't have to be co-located with manufacturing.

I respectfully disagree. I spend many hours a month in the factory resolving issues, answering questions, providing direction. I can't do that via telephone or e-mail.

Quoting texl1649 (Reply 84):
The older NW Boeing engineering hands, to the extent they will be employed on the 777x project (remember BA already announced engineering work on this wouldn't be out of WA), won't wind up getting moved to the prospective new FAL, by and large.

Boeing has not yet made a decision on 777X engineering work in the Puget Sound.

I suspect that wherever final assembly goes, so too goes the engineering.


User currently offlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2130 posts, RR: 4
Reply 86, posted (10 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 13310 times:

Quoting texl1649 (Reply 84):
Engineering doesn't have to be co-located with manufacturing.

Engineering doesn't have to be co-located with manufacturing.

But believe me, the Engineer will learn of problems (manufacturing or engineering wise) much quicker and respond much faster if the Engineer is walking distance to the factory. Even driving distance will create a barrier that is not productive.

For the best of the last decade, Boeing has made an emphasis of moving their Engineering (sustaining) to the factory. I see this first hand the benefit of being walking distance to the manufacturing facility.

As many old timers will tell you, the closer you can get to the flying chips, the more you will learn to designing a better product.

by



Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
User currently onlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13120 posts, RR: 100
Reply 87, posted (10 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 13325 times:
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Quoting tortugamon (Reply 83):
I personally believe there will be about 1,000 787s flying before the 777x enters service. There is so much time separating them that I don't think there will be that much impact.

   And the CFRP commercial wing manufacturing expertise is already in Japan...

Quoting texl1649 (Reply 84):
Engineering doesn't have to be co-located with manufacturing. Is that how Airbus does it?

Airbus has a very distributed manufacturing model. Since wings are the most likely assembly to be outsourced, that would be Britain for Airbus (not France). Northrop makes wings designed in El Segundo in Palmdale...

Quoting texl1649 (Reply 84):
Furthermore, in the US, we have fewer engineering graduates than at any point in the last 50 years.

Because the engineering job market sucks. Look at the expected Boeing, Northrop, and Lockheed layoffs. There will be plenty willing to sign up for flights to Japan (or the Carolina s, or Texas or...)

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6907 posts, RR: 46
Reply 88, posted (10 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 13202 times:

Quoting texl1649 (Reply 84):
It's the 21st century. Engineering doesn't have to be co-located with manufacturing

Having worked in engineering for 35 years, I will say that while it is not absolutely essential, it is much, much more efficient if it is.

Quoting BoeEngr (Reply 85):
I respectfully disagree. I spend many hours a month in the factory resolving issues, answering questions, providing direction. I can't do that via telephone or e-mail.

  
In addition, in my career I found it extremely valuable to talk to the people who would have to make my designs work before I finalized them.



The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 684 posts, RR: 3
Reply 89, posted (10 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 13119 times:

Quoting BoeEngr (Reply 85):
I respectfully disagree. I spend many hours a month in the factory resolving issues, answering questions, providing direction. I can't do that via telephone or e-mail.

It's true for production support engineering but for the design, it could be anywhere.


User currently offline707lvr From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 585 posts, RR: 2
Reply 90, posted (10 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 13155 times:

I think a lot of people don't realize how poisonous the union/management relationship is up here. This divorce has been in the works for a long time, and they've only stayed together for the kids. It is over. Anytime a Strike is virtually guaranteed a full three years out should be a pretty good clue.

User currently offline7BOEING7 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1592 posts, RR: 8
Reply 91, posted (10 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 13152 times:

Take away #1:
Boeing health care coverage is one of the best in the US even with the increased costs which most other Boeing employees are already paying. (For several years now other areas of Boeing have not provided retirement health care to new hires.)

Take away #2:
Present wage increases replaced with cost of living every year + 1% every other year + upgrades if you're already not at max. They're already well paid and make a lot more with overtime -- unfortunately the Seattle area is not a cheap place to live.

Most if not all the other issues apply to new hires ie time to upgrade, 401K only, etc so it won't effect the present workers.

Probably a bad move by Boeing to deal with the international and not the local but the union needs to see the writing on the wall -- 2020 KPAE with no 777's, very few 747's and 767's, and the 787 (which is assembled, not built) will have a lot fewer Local 751 workers.

Combine that with the fact that the states present "aide" didn't pass the WTO smell test which is still going on and the new aid won't either adds another complication.


User currently offlineBoeEngr From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 321 posts, RR: 35
Reply 92, posted (10 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 13130 times:

Quoting queb (Reply 89):
Quoting BoeEngr (Reply 85):
I respectfully disagree. I spend many hours a month in the factory resolving issues, answering questions, providing direction. I can't do that via telephone or e-mail.

It's true for production support engineering but for the design, it could be anywhere.

Again, I disagree. I am working on a development/design program. Engineering is not yet finished, and I'm providing lots of hands on support to the factory, and have been for quite some time. It's not like one day the engineering finishes up, and the next day production begins. There is serious overlap.

If they separate the engineering site from the production site, what will happen when they start building the first airplane and the designers aren't there? These aren't simple machines. There are unforseen problems, interferences, and challenges when you go to assemble the first planes.


User currently offlinetortugamon From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 3446 posts, RR: 10
Reply 93, posted (10 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 13086 times:

Quoting BoeEngr (Reply 92):
There are unforseen problems, interferences, and challenges when you go to assemble the first planes.

But she sure is a beauty in the air. Congratulations on that. Hope your next project is similarly rewarding.


tortugamon


User currently offlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 684 posts, RR: 3
Reply 94, posted (10 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 13050 times:

BBD has designed the Learjet 85 and Global 7000/8000 in Montreal, the first is built in Mexico and assembled in Wichita and the second will be assembled in Toronto, so it's possible.

User currently offlineBoeEngr From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 321 posts, RR: 35
Reply 95, posted (10 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 13017 times:

Quoting queb (Reply 94):
BBD has designed the Learjet 85 and Global 7000/8000 in Montreal, the first is built in Mexico and assembled in Wichita and the second will be assembled in Toronto, so it's possible.

Definitely agree it's possible. I don't believe it's a good or efficient practice, however. Others may disagree. In my engineering career (about 15 years), I've found the most successful projects keep engineering and production close to each other.


User currently offlineDrewski2112 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 119 posts, RR: 0
Reply 96, posted (10 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 12826 times:

Worth noting that a Boeing Company Challenger flew BFI-LGB this morning.

User currently offlinemrocktor From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1668 posts, RR: 49
Reply 97, posted (10 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 12815 times:

Quoting queb (Reply 89):
design, it could be anywhere

As long as all you care about is a design that is good on paper, this is true. In real life though, having design engineering close to the factory is priceless. It saves you tons of money, and results in a better product.


User currently offlinegreaser From Bahamas, joined Jan 2004, 1101 posts, RR: 3
Reply 98, posted (10 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 12693 times:

Quoting mrocktor (Reply 97):
As long as all you care about is a design that is good on paper, this is true. In real life though, having design engineering close to the factory is priceless. It saves you tons of money, and results in a better product.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/steveden...e-are-bringing-manufacturing-back/

GE agrees with you. Remember the days when everyone said meeting in person was dead, and that all we need is videoconferencing? There are some things that just aren't as efficient as an in-person interaction. Sure, outsourcing exists, as does videoconferencing. but the world's airlines have not abandoned the biz class, and neither will the importance of keeping engineers and designers close to the manufacturing process.



Now you're really flying
User currently offlinelutfi From China, joined Sep 2000, 775 posts, RR: 0
Reply 99, posted (10 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 12488 times:

Sad to see.

My sympathies are with the union on this one. Yeah, maybe they should accept the reality that in US a blue collar job can no longer give a middle class living, but I can't blame them for fighting it.

I would see the problem with Huntsville being in attracting engineers. Seattle is a place that is "hip" to live, easy for spouses to get jobs. Alabama, well, it scores poorly in areas like education. Place like SFO/ NYC/ SEA/ BOS are expensive to live, have tough labour laws, but do drive most of the innovation, because (in general) clever young people like to live in interesting places with lots going on.


User currently offlinephxa340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 891 posts, RR: 1
Reply 100, posted (10 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 12474 times:

Quoting lutfi (Reply 99):
Alabama, well, it scores poorly in areas like education.

The education pool in the US is incredibly mobile. Everyone I met at the Boeing factory in Mesa AZ was from another state and a lot moved to AZ for the Boeing job. I wouldn't worry about local education being an issue.

California is close to preparing a 777X incentive package, lets see what they come up with (If anything). Knowing California, they will tell Boeing to pay them 10Billion in incentives to have the pleasure of doing business in the state.


User currently offlineStuckInCA From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1961 posts, RR: 0
Reply 101, posted (10 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 12457 times:

Quoting 707lvr (Reply 44):
Seattle moved on when the Company left town

I, by no means, believe that the regions economy is entirely dependent on Boeing, but I'm not sure how you could say that Seattle "moved on." Boeing still employs a huge number of people here and, more easily overlooked, supports a large number of other businesses. These employees and supporting businesses may not recover easily.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 48):
The region will do fine with Amazon, Microsoft, and other tech companies.

Maybe. The "Machinists" and supporting regional companies (automation distributors, machine shops, etc) may not do fine. When you add it all up, it will have an impact.

Quoting redflyer (Reply 57):
The jobs will remain in the region, but they will go to different industries

Industries that may not support the people who lost the jobs. Someone who's been doing mid-level assembly work at Boeing for 8 or 12 years. High School degree. Where are they going where they will get anything similar to what they got at Boeing? Not MS. Not amazon. Not a medical device company. I don't know. Tech is a different mindset than Boeing.


User currently offlineStuckInCA From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1961 posts, RR: 0
Reply 102, posted (10 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 12463 times:

Quoting lutfi (Reply 99):
Yeah, maybe they should accept the reality that in US a blue collar job can no longer give a middle class living, but I can't blame them for fighting it.

I agree with you on this point, but the reality is that an Engineering job can only provide a middle class living in certain circumstances. So why should they expect better?


User currently offlinelutfi From China, joined Sep 2000, 775 posts, RR: 0
Reply 103, posted (10 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 12445 times:

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 100):
The education pool in the US is incredibly mobile. Everyone I met at the Boeing factory in Mesa AZ was from another state and a lot moved to AZ for the Boeing job. I wouldn't worry about local education being an issue.

Not for the pool of labour, but for the families of engineers that want to move there.

You are a highly qualified engineer, your husband has a technical job at another Seattle firm. You want your kids to have the best education possible. Alabama scores 4th lowest in the US. Do you sacrifice your kids & husband, or do you go look for another job (even at less pay) in Seattle? Precision Cast Parts is a great local firm...


User currently offlinelutfi From China, joined Sep 2000, 775 posts, RR: 0
Reply 104, posted (10 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 12455 times:

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 102):

In that case US is screwed. I'm an engineer with a master's degree, damn right I expect middle class lifestyle, and would move sectors to get one. Or move into finance (numbers are easy) if engineering stopped paying enough


User currently offlinephxa340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 891 posts, RR: 1
Reply 105, posted (10 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 12428 times:

Quoting lutfi (Reply 103):
Alabama scores 4th lowest in the US

In public education. If you have the financial means, you can find a quality education mostly anywhere. But otherwise yes I do agree with your points.


User currently offlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5050 posts, RR: 28
Reply 106, posted (10 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 12459 times:

Here is an interesting article. Charleston workers are fed up, and want to be union again. I knew this was going to happen. LGB is also union. Boeing can't break the union.


http://www.fitsnews.com/2013/11/12/boeing-blues-in-north-charleston/



I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlinedynamo12 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 57 posts, RR: 0
Reply 107, posted (10 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 12425 times:

What does this mean for the 3 year renewal? Does Boeing need to start marking plans now for strikes in Seattle hitting the rest of their lines?

There's no way they can move the production that's up there so it's either give the unions what they want or?

I'm def sad to see the move of mfg jobs out of country and hope they can keep production in the states, California location is close to the water for shipsets. Any chance they bring a FAL down with them or is FAL certain to be Seattle? It does seem a pain to have things so spread out.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30986 posts, RR: 86
Reply 108, posted (10 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 12379 times:
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Quoting lutfi (Reply 99):
My sympathies are with the union on this one. Yeah, maybe they should accept the reality that in US a blue collar job can no longer give a middle class living, but I can't blame them for fighting it.

Machinists at Boeing more than make enough to enjoy a comfortable middle class lifestyle.

As such, this fight was not over making a living now - it was over making a living after retirement (retirement health care benefits and pensions).


User currently onlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5467 posts, RR: 6
Reply 109, posted (10 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 12292 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 108):
Machinists at Boeing more than make enough to enjoy a comfortable middle class lifestyle.

The most senior do. Many at junior ranks and/or with less seniority don't. Everyone should have a look at the current wage card.


User currently offlinePITingres From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 1144 posts, RR: 13
Reply 110, posted (10 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 12209 times:

Quoting lutfi (Reply 103):
You want your kids to have the best education possible. Alabama scores 4th lowest in the US.

Allow me to inject a note of caution ... education, at least in the US, is local, not state-wide or even necessarily county-wide. I rather suspect that one or more of the Huntsville (AL) school districts would satisfy most parents, and no doubt there are other refuges of good education in the Deep South, with some of them surely being in Alabama. Education decisions have to be specific to school district, not state or region.

I have no interest in living or raising children in Alabama myself, but let's try to be fair here. If my job had moved there, I suspect I'd find a way to raise properly educated children there.



Fly, you fools! Fly!
User currently offlinetrigged From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 111, posted (10 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 11940 times:

Quoting lutfi (Reply 99):
I would see the problem with Huntsville being in attracting engineers. Seattle is a place that is "hip" to live, easy for spouses to get jobs. Alabama, well, it scores poorly in areas like education. Place like SFO/ NYC/ SEA/ BOS are expensive to live, have tough labour laws, but do drive most of the innovation, because (in general) clever young people like to live in interesting places with lots going on.

Huntsville has more PhD's and post-graduate engineers than almost any other spot in the US. While there are many rural areas in Alabama with dismal education numbers, the Huntsville area is the polar opposite. I assure you, the notion that Alabama is some back-woods 3rd world state is long outdated. BMW, Mercedes Benz, Kia, and Toyota have moved manufacturing plants here, Airbus is building an assembly plant in Mobile, and Huntsville is filled with aerospace engineers looking for work since NASA has drastically downsized and lost its mission. Boeing would be wise to seriously consider Huntsville, especially since ULA (Lockheed + Boeing) has the assembly and integration facility for the Delta and Atlas launch vehicles in Decatur, about 20 miles away from Huntsville.

I think Boeing is a little more interested in designing and building great commercial aircraft than ensuring a "hip place" for its engineers to live. Great engineers will go where the challenges and pay are great.


User currently onlinewilliam From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1282 posts, RR: 0
Reply 112, posted (10 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 11906 times:

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 106):
Here is an interesting article. Charleston workers are fed up, and want to be union again. I knew this was going to happen. LGB is also union. Boeing can't break the union.

Really? Quote me a real news source.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12556 posts, RR: 25
Reply 113, posted (10 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 11901 times:

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 78):
Just looking at the past couple of months and the number of days that Everett has not been able to fly because of low ceiling and other weather concerns makes me think that Western WA is not the most ideal location. It was for the flying boats used to make but not for commercial airliners.

Flying boats have just as much trouble with bad weather as do other types of aircraft.

Boeing is in Western WA because Bill Boeing was in Western WA. He had an interest in aviation and family money mostly through logging interests. It turned out later as aluminum became the main ingredient in building aircraft that Boeing was ideally situated. Aluminum takes a lot of electricity to produce, so many aluminum businesses moved to the area to take advantage of cheap electricity provided via hydro power.

Quoting trigged (Reply 111):
Great engineers will go where the challenges and pay are great.

The problem is that they can get that along with a much more hip place to live too...

It seems much of the engineering will still happen in the same places it happens now.

We're really just talking about where it gets manufactured, and we've seen articles showing that Boeing is already prototyping some new manufacturing concepts for 777X in good old Western WA.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently onlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13120 posts, RR: 100
Reply 114, posted (10 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 11887 times:
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Quoting F9Animal (Reply 106):
Here is an interesting article. Charleston workers are fed up, and want to be union again.

   I know too many peopel at Boeing who chose Charleston to get away from the IAM.
My sources on the ground claim this is union rabble rousing. Please quote a real news source.

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 106):
LGB is also union.

But UAW. A much more sensible union than the militant IAM. You had better believe the UAW wants jobs at LGB.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 113):
It seems much of the engineering will still happen in the same places it happens now.

So for CFRP wings, LGB.   I'm serious. Every Boeing CFRP engineer I know is either at Palmdale or being relocated to LGB.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 113):
already prototyping some new manufacturing concepts for 777X in good old Western WA.

With quite a few engineers flying up from SoCal... I think Japan is now the most likely place for the wing due to this vote. But after thinking about it, Boeing is building a CFRP center of excellence at Long Beach. Why not combine engineering with manufacturing...?   

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinetexl1649 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 296 posts, RR: 0
Reply 115, posted (10 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 11826 times:

The politics in Japan have to be interesting to Boeing right now, as far as wing manufacture goes.

Wings and engines can come in anywhere for FAL. This isn't going to be a "reinvent the airplane" project like the 787, I think I read they aren't even going to an exotic AL-Li skin now.

It will be interesting to see if they choose to put a second autoclave in Charleston now too, and really commit to ramping up that site.


User currently offlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2130 posts, RR: 4
Reply 116, posted (10 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 11775 times:

Quoting queb (Reply 94):
BBD has designed the Learjet 85 and Global 7000/8000 in Montreal, the first is built in Mexico and assembled in Wichita and the second will be assembled in Toronto, so it's possible.
Quoting BoeEngr (Reply 95):
Others may disagree. In my engineering career (about 15 years),

And I've had almost 25 years of Engineering experience both in R&D, Sustaining Support, and new Airplane Development, and I am 100% in agreement that part of the Engineering duties is to understand how your design comes together in the factory floor. You don't get as good insight of how to put your design together on the computer screen as you would looking at a machinist do it real life.

Quoting queb (Reply 89):
It's true for production support engineering but for the design, it could be anywhere.

Even for new airplane designers, if you do not have these insight by having worked hand in hand with the factory, you will miss many tricks of the trade that make the assembly of the part more efficient, reduce chances of errors etc.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 113):

It seems much of the engineering will still happen in the same places it happens now.

We're really just talking about where it gets manufactured, and we've seen articles showing that Boeing is already prototyping some new manufacturing concepts for 777X in good old Western WA.

One more aspect of cross Engineering that need to consider when various Engineering pool gets spread across the country is the reduction of cross pollination. If the factory gets dispersed, and the Engineering does not follow, then you lose some Engineering effectiveness. If the Engineers follows the individual factories, then you don't have the various Engineering discipline learning from each other as much. Wing engineers from the 737 and 787 in theory can have greater contact with each other by being in the same region. But if they are separated in different states, there is less chance for interchange and or cross pollination. All are important if having an effective Engineering force.

bt



Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
User currently offlinefrmrcapcadet From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1718 posts, RR: 1
Reply 117, posted (10 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 11718 times:

Love it. Moderators started this thread to get the politics out of the 777X up date, and keep technical stuff to the original thread.

ps - and thanks for the technical stuff. I liked it all.

pps - to stir the pot a bit. Frederick Alexander Lindemann, Churchill's WWII science advisor famously observed that he wanted to train monkeys to do the blue collar work, because they couldn't vote. Hmmm.



Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12556 posts, RR: 25
Reply 118, posted (10 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 11544 times:

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 116):
And I've had almost 25 years of Engineering experience both in R&D, Sustaining Support, and new Airplane Development, and I am 100% in agreement that part of the Engineering duties is to understand how your design comes together in the factory floor. You don't get as good insight of how to put your design together on the computer screen as you would looking at a machinist do it real life.

Indeed so. Kelley Johnson famously insisted that the Skunk Works be set up with engineering and manufacturing co-located. This is perfectly clear to us in the technical fields, however it's just not today's reality, for countless reasons.

In the case of Boeing, LGB comes from the McD-D acquisition (as does St. Louis) and Wichita came about because the US government did not like having manufacturing on the West coat because in WW2 it was at some theoretical risk from Japanese attack and during the Cold War it was at varying degrees of risk of Soviet attack.

My employer has done many acquisitions so we're spread out all over the place. Add to that large amounts of outsourcing of both engineering and especially manufacturing, and you end up with all kinds of inefficiencies that the MBAs don't know how to measure or don't care to bother measuring. Those of us who work in the company's hinterlands know that making a stink about it would simply make it easier for corporate to shut down our locations.

Also when a company does pick a central location you see what we see with Boeing: employees get this sense of entitlement, the local governments feel free to raise taxes to high levels, land gets hard to acquire, etc.

I can't think of too many sizable companies that have managed to remain centralized.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2130 posts, RR: 4
Reply 119, posted (10 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 11425 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 118):

I can't think of too many sizable companies that have managed to remain centralized.

How true. In this case you move the necessary Engineering to the spread out factories and live with reduce cross pollination.   

bt



Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7202 posts, RR: 8
Reply 120, posted (10 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 11310 times:

Quoting texl1649 (Reply 13):
Boeing is once again betting the company on the next new model (and missed expensively with the last one). It has to get it's manufacturing costs in order to remain competitive for decades to come.

The new production method implemented for the 787 was a long term plan, it was supposed to reduce production cost and allow a/c to be built cheaper than the previous ones, see the 787 initial purchase price. It may still prove cheaper but with what has taken place, how and when will they actually know?
The failure of the plan was Boeing's implementation, the fundamentals were sound, whatever side of the fence one sits on, no one is saying that the process is faulty.
Is this any different from the Banks who made heyday on "shakey" instruments with the full approva of the government, to only turn around and hold the tax payers responsible for cleaning up the mess.

I guess workers need to be like management, take what you can now and let the future look after itself, as you are dam*** if you do and dam*** if you don't.


User currently offlineRDUDDJI From Lesotho, joined Jun 2004, 1483 posts, RR: 3
Reply 121, posted (10 months 6 days ago) and read 11064 times:

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 106):
Here is an interesting article. Charleston workers are fed up, and want to be union again. I knew this was going to happen. LGB is also union. Boeing can't break the union.


http://www.fitsnews.com/2013/11/12/b...ston/

I see. Nobody bit the first time you "claimed" CHS employees want a union... So you come back with a lefty blog post from a wife beater as your source (first link below). Interestingly enough, Will (whom fitnews.com is registered to) also claimed that he had an affair with Nicki Haley (second link). Notsomuch the credible source.

http://www.wistv.com/Global/story.asp?S=3911359
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0...folks-sc-blogger-i-h_n_586990.html



Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30986 posts, RR: 86
Reply 122, posted (10 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 10934 times:
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Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 91):
Probably a bad move by Boeing to deal with the international and not the local...

More like a bad move by International and IAM 751 leadership as there are now calls within IAM 751 to recall their local leadership...



Quoting dynamo12 (Reply 107):
What does this mean for the 3 year renewal? Does Boeing need to start marking plans now for strikes in Seattle hitting the rest of their lines?

If I was Boeing, I would plan for a strike in 2016 (hence why I think they should look at a secondary 737 MAX and 777X FAL outside of WA).


User currently onlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5467 posts, RR: 6
Reply 123, posted (10 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 10874 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 122):
More like a bad move by International and IAM 751 leadership as there are now calls within IAM 751 to recall their local leadership...

It takes two to tango. A bad strategic move by both sides, IMO. Boeing and the International both got caught up in a vision of delivering labor peace to Emirates on a silver platter before the airshow.

I'm not convinced that Boeing won't come back to the table before 2016. If it does, the approach will be different on both sides, I expect.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12556 posts, RR: 25
Reply 124, posted (10 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 10746 times:

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 123):
I'm not convinced that Boeing won't come back to the table before 2016. If it does, the approach will be different on both sides, I expect.

Seems the union rank and file position is pretty clear, so it's hard to see that it'd be worth it for Boeing to bother coming back a second time.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30986 posts, RR: 86
Reply 125, posted (10 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 10737 times:
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Quoting Revelation (Reply 124):
Seems the union rank and file position is pretty clear, so it's hard to see that it'd be worth it for Boeing to bother coming back a second time.

It's worth Boeing's time to continue to talk and see if they can do a long-term (10 year) deal, but I'd be preparing a contingency plan for a non-IAM 751 FAL for the 737 MAX and 777X even if they will also continue to use RTN and PAE for those programs.

That way, they can give IAM 751 what they want in 2016 to keep them working and set the term long enough to allow the secondary FALs to be ready to become primary FALs and then when the new contract ends, so does production at RTN and PAE.


User currently offlinemjoelnir From Iceland, joined Feb 2013, 1449 posts, RR: 2
Reply 126, posted (10 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 10616 times:

The big difference at Boeing at the next round of talks with some union could be that James McNerney could than have retired and the outlook how to work with unions have changed.

User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11670 posts, RR: 33
Reply 127, posted (10 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 10515 times:

Boeing says no plans to reopen union talks on 777X:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...dubai-boeing-idUSBRE9AF03E20131116



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinetortugamon From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 3446 posts, RR: 10
Reply 128, posted (10 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 10443 times:

There will be many who have a vested interest in getting the two sides together to find common ground, not the least of which are the Governor and all local businesses and municipalities. I suspect they will be playing middle man and will not give up on this disagreement all together. However, I highly doubt that each side will admit to be open to negotiating further.

tortugamon


User currently onlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5467 posts, RR: 6
Reply 129, posted (10 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 10354 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 124):
Seems the union rank and file position is pretty clear, so it's hard to see that it'd be worth it for Boeing to bother coming back a second time.

I think the very negative reaction was based on multiple factors, some of which can be addressed in ways that really wouldn't change the benefits of this sort of deal for Boeing. I don't think Boeing will ever get to 67% approval on a package like this, but I do think it's not impossible to get to 51%.

1) Negotiating in secret with the International and then offering a hard, unrealistic deadline. The membership really didn't like this. A different process next time could make a difference. Of course, this is a union and a corporate management team that have repeatedly found ways to shoot themselves in the foot when dealing with each other and the relationship may be too poisoned now for a new process to be all that helpful.

2) Lack of cash concessions. Boeing could make the structural changes to the benefits package more palatable by... offering some money in return. The lack of raises or other cash sweeteners really made the deal look very one-sided, which led to its perception as an insult by many union members.

3) Loud threats to close shop. People don't like being blackmailed and feeling like there is a gun to their heads. Even if there really is, Boeing doesn't have to be so publicly aggressive about it.


User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6907 posts, RR: 46
Reply 130, posted (10 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 10295 times:

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 129):
2) Lack of cash concessions. Boeing could make the structural changes to the benefits package more palatable by... offering some money in return

I think the $10,000 signing bonus was a considerable amount of money. I have never been offered a bonus anything like that in my life.



The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offline7BOEING7 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1592 posts, RR: 8
Reply 131, posted (10 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 10280 times:

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 129):
2) Lack of cash concessions. Boeing could make the structural changes to the benefits package more palatable by... offering some money in return. The lack of raises or other cash sweeteners really made the deal look very one-sided, which led to its perception as an insult by many union members.


Raises were COL+ 1% (every other year) which in today's market is more than many people get and there was a $10K sweetener -- don't know exactly how much they were going to have to contribute for medical but again it's a small price to pay for what they're getting. Most everything else only applied to new hires -- they made a big mistake.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30986 posts, RR: 86
Reply 132, posted (10 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 10259 times:
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Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 131):
Most everything else only applied to new hires -- they made a big mistake.

A common theme seems to be the older members felt the benefits they'd fought for were a sort of "legacy" that needed to be passed on to the younger generation.

As such, it seems Boeing's usual plan of trying to divorce the most senior (by offering them "golden parachute" early retirement packages) and junior (by offering them large signing bonuses) members from those in the middle did not work as this time, the senior members joined the middle members to not "sell out" the junior members (whom seemed to be the ones most likely to vote in favor of the contract).

[Edited 2013-11-16 14:47:30]

User currently offline7BOEING7 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1592 posts, RR: 8
Reply 133, posted (10 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 10199 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 132):
A common theme seems to be the older members felt the benefits they'd fought for were a sort of "legacy" that needed to be passed on to the younger generation.


In my understanding there was no loss of benefits to anybody that is currently a union member -- only to those who would be employed in the future. They would be able to make their own decision whether they wanted to work for Boeing or not -- no gun to their head. I don't consider paying a little extra for a good medical plan a loss of benefits.


User currently offlineStuckInCA From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1961 posts, RR: 0
Reply 134, posted (10 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 10184 times:

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 129):
I don't think Boeing will ever get to 67% approval on a package like this, but I do think it's not impossible to get to 51%.

Why should Boeing go out of their way to force through changes that would still leave the Machinists very well compensated? Why not go somewhere where people would be very happy with what they're offering?

I realize there are costs in relocating, but labor disruptions and malcontent, entitled workforces cost money too.


User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6907 posts, RR: 46
Reply 135, posted (10 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 10076 times:

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 134):
Why should Boeing go out of their way to force through changes that would still leave the Machinists very well compensated? Why not go somewhere where people would be very happy with what they're offering?

I realize there are costs in relocating, but labor disruptions and malcontent, entitled workforces cost money too.

Boeing faces huge costs either way, and moving risks having production delays because of an inexperienced workforce. I believe that the deciding factor for Boeing is the number of times the union has struck at particularly critical times for them. I am of the opinion that Boeing management has decided that they must end this blackmail, and they had two ways of doing it. The first was a long term contract, which would have been preferable, because they could have kept their skilled workforce and not faced the uncertainties and expense of moving. But that required the union to cooperate, which they have refused to do. Therefore I expect Boeing to never again start any new production of any kind, be it complete aircraft or components, in Washington state. They will also not agree to any union demands that violate that. And hence Boeing in Washington will wither on the vine; the 737, 747, and 777 (old model) all are going to end production in the near future, and the 767 is now primarily the tanker, and its production life is undetermined at this point. Even if the MAX does get built in Renton, the NSA is coming probably as soon as the 777X is up and running. My expectation is that the last plane built in Washington will roll off the line in 10 to 20 years.



The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlineCX747 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 4454 posts, RR: 5
Reply 136, posted (10 months 5 days ago) and read 10044 times:

IAM 751 need look no further than the number of "union" workers who used to be employed in Detroit making automobiles. The majority of those jobs are now done outside of Detroit and the city itself is a wreck. IAM 751 just decided that future was the one they wanted. Boeing is moving on and Everett/Renton are in the rear view mirror. Way to bite the hand that feeds. Sad to know tha the "home" to most of Boeing's aircraft is now a walking dead factory. It will be interesting to see where Boeing moves their facilities.


"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30986 posts, RR: 86
Reply 137, posted (10 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 9872 times:
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So the 777X launches with over 250 orders (largest commercial airliner launch in history).

Wonder what the IAM 751 folks are thinking now...


User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6907 posts, RR: 46
Reply 138, posted (10 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 9839 times:

Quoting CX747 (Reply 136):
It will be interesting to see where Boeing moves their facilities.

Actually, thinking about it, I think it likely that Boeing will pick someplace other than Charleston. They could well have decided that having multiple locations around the country has advantages, rather than having all planes built at the same place. That way it will make it much harder for a union to hold the entire company hostage, or any other entity, such as a local government for that matter. It may also be easier to find good workers if they are not requiring all of them at one place.



The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlineCX747 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 4454 posts, RR: 5
Reply 139, posted (10 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 9504 times:

What a day for the 777-9 and 777-8. The one thing that is great to see is that the -8 has garnered far more attention than the -200LR did and seems to have a more stable place in the offering line. I would love to see CX commit to this aircraft and at least UA, AA or DL! A two engined 747-400 has just been launched and is off to an amazing start just like the 747-400 itself.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 137):
So the 777X launches with over 250 orders (largest commercial airliner launch in history).

Wonder what the IAM 751 folks are thinking now...

Brrrrrrr is what the IAM 751 folks are thinking because they are going to be left out in the cold. 250 aircraft is plenty of paychecks to the bank for a union employee. As it stands know, NONE of what occurred today will positively effect a IAM 751 employee. Those aircraft and the money paid out to produce them is looking more and more like it will go to guys in CA, UT or SC. The IAM 751 guys shouldt be looking real hard in the mirror right now, wondering what they need to do in order to get back in the game.

IAM 751 told Boeing and the 777X to go pound rocks. They felt they were worth "more" than what Boeing offered. The vote took place and what happened????? Nothing, as in no major shakeup, no loss in consumer confidence. The stock didn't drop and the current model jets kept rolling down the line. The FUTURE change dramatically for those union employees. They just told their manufacturer and $$$ in the bank to pound and the manufacturer said, "OK".

Boeing is looking at other places to manufacture the jets and not breaking a sweat. States are falling all over themselves to get this work. The customers haven't lost one iota of sleep and ordered 250+ of the newest widebody Boeing has to offer. Let's type that again...250 of Boeing's latest widebody was ordered today and Boeing doesn't even know where they are going to manufacturer it. The customers have rock solid confidence despite the union's nonsense. That should make the legs quiver of any 751 employee. Their level of importance today was ZERO to both the manufactuerer and its customers.

If I was an IAM 751 guy, I would be in my union reps face tomorrow telling him that he better get me another crack at making money on the 777X line. If they don't do it fast, all that work and $$$ is going elsewhere and they will be looking at a quiet Everett with another factory taking its place without missing a beat.



"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
User currently onlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13120 posts, RR: 100
Reply 140, posted (10 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 9342 times:
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Quoting CX747 (Reply 139):
The vote took place and what happened????? Nothing, as in no major shakeup, no loss in consumer confidence. The stock didn't drop and the current model jets kept rolling down the line. The FUTURE change dramatically for those union employees.

No need for the stock to react with as many years as there are left on the contract.

I think all that has been done is free up 777X wing work for another site.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently onlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5465 posts, RR: 30
Reply 141, posted (10 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 9236 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 140):

I think all 777x work is on the table...not just the wing.

Regardless of which side of the union vote one is on, you just have to look at Charleston to know Boeing isn't bluffing. The deal might not be good enough for 751, but it will be for a workforce somewhere.

This reminds me of a strike at Burns Packers in Edmonton, years ago. Basically, Burns threatened to shut down and move if there was a strike. The union struck, and the shop was closed up that day...and the building was being cleaned out by the next day.

Some people were picketing the empty building for a year.

Right or wrong means nothing here...only what will happen next.



What the...?
User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7202 posts, RR: 8
Reply 142, posted (10 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 9092 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 137):
Wonder what the IAM 751 folks are thinking now...

I would think the same thing they were thinking when they voted down the proposal, a bad proposal for them does not get better because persons are buying the product offered, everyone has to do what is in their best interest.
Boeing is setting its level of cost / risk and at present it is outside of Washington state, a growing percentage of their products are being designed and assembled outside of the USA also and everyone expects that to continue.

A larger percentage of the new 777 will be done overseas, as Boeing transitions away from manufacturing to assembly we must hope that they do a better job than what was done on the 787 project, I'm willing to bet that all the cost savings that the 787 design and production structure created were wiped away by poor oversight, probably put them in a unrecoverable program hold.

Let's look for better on the 777X.


User currently onlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8374 posts, RR: 7
Reply 143, posted (10 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 9084 times:
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Eventally Boeing will keep their 777X production in Seattle, it would be to everyone's advantage to do that. Washington state can't let 20 years production of the 777X leave the state.

User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6907 posts, RR: 46
Reply 144, posted (10 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 9033 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 143):

Eventally Boeing will keep their 777X production in Seattle, it would be to everyone's advantage to do that. Washington state can't let 20 years production of the 777X leave the state.

I do not see how you think that Washington state is going to keep the 777X in the state if Boeing decides to move it. Right or wrong, it is their decision. And as I see it if they do not move it now, they will be surrendering to more union blackmail for years to come, with no opportunity to end it. This is the only chance they are likely to have. Short term it will hurt them, as it will make the production ramp-up slower, more costly, and more prone to errors because of the lack of experienced machinists. But those are temporary problems, and the IAM blackmail is an ongoing and worsening problem with no end in sight.



The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlinefrmrCapCadet From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1718 posts, RR: 1
Reply 145, posted (10 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 8893 times:

Seattle area is not a low cost living area anymore. This likely has an impact on a company that wants to be a low cost producer. Incidentally the western half of the state went through another trauma of this sort 25-35 years ago when logging, sawmills and its high wage blue collar jobs disappeared.

Perhaps the most interesting transition was that of the West Coast longshoremen. Harry Bridges (Australian and Marxist !!!), negotiated a contract which has largely made everyone happy, and he has been a long time dead. It addressed the need of the ports to reduce employment, introduce technology, and protect the jobs, salaries, and benefits of the workers.



Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
User currently onlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13120 posts, RR: 100
Reply 146, posted (10 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 8725 times:
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Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 141):
I think all 777x work is on the table...not just the wing.

Agreed. But this is economics and I believe it is unlikely to move 777 final assembly due to risk (which is put in as a cost estimate). I do think that we will see the 777X assembled more along the lines of the 787 (stuffed barrels) too. So expect a faster production rate with fewer workers.    Local 751 knew what they were voting for...

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 141):
Right or wrong means nothing here...only what will happen next.

100% agree. Since you were replying to me, I'm not sure why you said this. I'm basing my opinion on the economics.

There is some chance of another location, but I do not put that chance very high. Unless local 751 does something really stupid... But let's agree the door is open to pursue other options now. I just think when the dust settles, the final assembly will be where it is.



Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8964 posts, RR: 39
Reply 147, posted (10 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 8728 times:

Quoting Drewski2112 (Reply 96):
Worth noting that a Boeing Company Challenger flew BFI-LGB this morning.

I would expect such a team to fly out of Chicago.

Quoting lutfi (Reply 99):
I would see the problem with Huntsville being in attracting engineers. Seattle is a place that is "hip" to live, easy for spouses to get jobs. Alabama, well, it scores poorly in areas like education. Place like SFO/ NYC/ SEA/ BOS are expensive to live, have tough labour laws, but do drive most of the innovation, because (in general) clever young people like to live in interesting places with lots going on.

Huntsville has the largest number of PhDs of any city in the country.

Quoting lutfi (Reply 104):
In that case US is screwed. I'm an engineer with a master's degree, damn right I expect middle class lifestyle, and would move sectors to get one. Or move into finance (numbers are easy) if engineering stopped paying enough

Moving to Huntsville from Seattle means significantly lower living costs. Sacrificing the hip neighborhood does not come without its benefits.

Not to mention you SHOULD sacrifice the hip neighborhood and start saving for retirement. Ultra boring, but ultra intelligent.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30986 posts, RR: 86
Reply 148, posted (10 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 8727 times:
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Quoting Drewski2112 (Reply 96):
Worth noting that a Boeing Company Challenger flew BFI-LGB this morning.
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 147):
I would expect such a team to fly out of Chicago.


Boeing Commercial Airplanes - and their management - are still headquartered in Seattle and they're the ones performing the due diligence and preparing the recommendations on where parts for the 777X should be produced and where final assembly of the airframes should occur.


User currently offlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2130 posts, RR: 4
Reply 149, posted (10 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 8461 times:

Quoting frmrCapCadet (Reply 145):
Seattle area is not a low cost living area anymore.

  

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 147):

Huntsville has the largest number of PhDs of any city in the country.

Been to Huntsville, and Wichita, so I can vouch on the following comment.

Why does it cost so much to live in Seattle when it rain so darn much here? I don't know.

Perhaps with all the rain, people will stay at their work longer and not have the urge to go to the beach etc . . .

But then we do have:

Skiing in the winter, boating in the summer, hiking all year round, Mt. biking when you are not skiing, beautiful forests and mountains. All we don't have are the nice warm sandy beach. . .

So while Seattle does not compare well to places like LA, San Diego, Miami. It does compare nicely to places like Huntsville, Wichita, and Mobile, and even Dallas.

Besides out Seahawks are awesome right now  

bt



Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30986 posts, RR: 86
Reply 150, posted (10 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 8398 times:
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Quoting bikerthai (Reply 149):
Why does it cost so much to live in Seattle when it rain so darn much here? I don't know.

We get less rain than many other cities in "sunnier" climes. What we do have a ton of, however, is overcast.


User currently offlineEaglePower83 From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 232 posts, RR: 0
Reply 151, posted (10 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 8360 times:

Quoting redflyer (Reply 22):
The problem with unions is that they are a relic of the past - a past that no longer exists. They are an anachronism. Strong labor laws have eliminated a lot of the need for a union, such that they are now competing against themselves in an economy that is experiencing 7.8% unemployment and a society that is spitting out educated workers willing to do the job of the union man for a third less than what he is getting paid and a fraction of the benefits. The sooner the IAM members realize this the sooner they can secure their jobs long term in Puget Sound.

I kind of agree, but then I see my own parents' employers try to get away with the wildest things.
My pharmacist father, who used to be in a Union, was irritated by them. But now that they're disbanded, his company gets away with working them 10-12hrs a day, and it's often so busy they get no breaks or lunch time. He'll often go 10hrs with just a banana on the fly. The union used to at least protect a couple breaks. Even though two 15min breaks and a 20min. unpaid lunch are mandated by Illinois labor law.
http://blog.laborlawcenter.com/2005/...8/20/illinois-lunch-and-break-law/
But, they don't get that due to the high workload, and if anyone says anything, they're on a company blacklist for next layoffs (it's happened). So they keep their mouths shut if they want to keep their jobs.
YES, others will fill those positions for far less pay, but they'll soon be just as miserable, and move on.
Now you have a high turnover rate. And high turnover is expensive, even though accountants can't always see it on a spreadsheet. You have a lower skilled, cheaper workforce, but now your quality suffers.

Quoting texl1649 (Reply 84):
It's the 21st century. Engineering doesn't have to be co-located with manufacturing. Is that how Airbus does it? Or, for that matter, does Bell do it's engineering in Amarillo? What about the Chinese, do they do engineering work adjacent to their production facilities?

As an engineer in the field for 5yrs now, I know it's the trend for companies to disband operations from the engieering epicenter, but this comes at a price. When I used to work 50ft from the shop floor, it was extremely easy and fast to hash out design issues and quality problems right then and there with the machinists and assemblers as well as immediately updating my designs.
My new atmosphere has central engineering completely separated from operations. This has fostered an engineering pool who has almost NO knowledge of "design for manufacturing" and many of the "kids" (because they are kids) have never even seen the parts they're designing in person, nor have any idea where they assemble to or how easy or hard they are to make or assemble.
You have this disconnect and it just makes things more difficult and more expensive to solve. The communication chain is full of gaps and it could be weeks before we know of any issues from the suppliers or assembly floors.
Again, real costs that the accountants can't see or quantify in their Excel sheets, but are very real in the field.

Quoting texl1649 (Reply 84):
Furthermore, in the US, we have fewer engineering graduates than at any point in the last 50 years.

True, because we had a period of years where firms were constantly downsizing engineering and manufacturing. Moving it offshore, and people saw their parents being laid off or stiffed on benefits, so people stopped going into engineering.
There's no public drive for science or engineering anymore like there was during the space race.
As Neil DeGrasse Tyson said, "we stopped dreaming" and have moved to "faster, cheaper." (Notice I didn't say better)
Now there's this wave of "engineering and maufacturing skills shortages" and the companies wonder why?
Germany has a fantastic apprentice/internship program at many companies that work with universities so they have a more interesting more streamlined transition from college to industry.
The US's programs are a shadow of what Germany does. It's silly because the companies will benefity with cheap labor from apprentices while training and breeding a new workforce.
We should learn from this.

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 86):
As many old timers will tell you, the closer you can get to the flying chips, the more you will learn to designing a better product.

YES YES YES.
I keep trying to tell the new kids on the block under me that what made me a better designer today is having your name paged on the PA, and having a machinist yell at you and tell you how stupid your design is and that it's unmakable.
It really makes you think about what you're doing, and what they need to do.
It's immediate feedback, it humbles you in your green years and fast tracks the learning of becoming a better designer.
I cannot agree more. And for some reason, so many companies today don't see this! Ops and Engnieering need to be a TEAM. Not rivals.


User currently offlinefrmrCapCadet From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1718 posts, RR: 1
Reply 152, posted (10 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 8400 times:

Corporations are an artificial construct of society. They were invented and legally enabled for their contribution to society through better economic activity. Now we read, particularly in some of the more obnoxious posts in this forum, that their only responsibility is to stockholders . If that really is the case the majority in this country (hint, not the 1%) are entirely entitled to rewrite the rules under which they function.

Unions are not outdated. They have been successfully attacked and lost power. They have made some bad moves, but for those opposed to them that justifies their destruction, not changes in the laws under which they operate.



Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
User currently onlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13120 posts, RR: 100
Reply 153, posted (10 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 8382 times:
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Quoting frmrCapCadet (Reply 152):

Corporations are an artificial construct of society.

Yes, but required to compete at the economies of scale required to make airliners. There is no other structure yet invented to employ as many thousands.

Unions have a place. I do not wish to live in a world where they were banned for the alternatives are far worse. But there is a laundry list of companies that have gone under due to militant unions who fought to the bitter end. e.g., Hostess.

And don't forget that successful (union won) 1959 strike in the Steel industry that set the beginning of the end of significant US steel production:
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/strik...shut-companies/story?id=17743234#4

Local 751 has to be reasonable. Boeing has competition. We could list off whole industries driven out of nations due to militant unions (e.g., the UK imports 45m tons of coal per year). But we can also list off atrocities that resulted in the need for unions. The IAM is just too militant of a union. I'm against one union dominating an industry in any one nation.

I so hope the wing is sent to Long Beach.    Alas, I think Mitsu will now get the 777X wing. Cest la vie.

Has anyone heard anything about Boeing 'stuffing' 777X barrels? That only seems logical.


Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinefrmrCapCadet From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1718 posts, RR: 1
Reply 154, posted (10 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 8334 times:

Lightsaber - appreciated your post. You likely would agree that the worst combination is a monopoly du/ triopoly corporation with their equally powerful unions. I think Detroit and Pittsburg did exemplify that sort of power. And that power contributed to their self-destruction.


Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30986 posts, RR: 86
Reply 155, posted (10 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 8277 times:
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Quoting lightsaber (Reply 153):
Has anyone heard anything about Boeing 'stuffing' 777X barrels? That only seems logical.

Alan Mulally was presented with a plan in September 2003 to have Mitsubishi, Kawasaki and Fuji assemble the fuselage panels they manufacture into complete barrels, install all the systems, and then ship the completed barrels to Everett where they would be riveted together. The cockpit assembly would have also been moved from Wichita to Japan so it could be integrated into the forward fuselage prior to shipment.

Called "Higher Level Assembly", this plan became the basis for 787 production and assembly.


User currently onlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13120 posts, RR: 100
Reply 156, posted (10 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 8228 times:
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Anyone else have the last few posts scrambled? My post 153 is after replies to that post...
Our firewall at work?

Quoting Stitch (Reply 155):
Alan Mulally was presented with a plan in September 2003 to have Mitsubishi, Kawasaki and Fuji assemble the fuselage panels they manufacture into complete barrels, install all the systems, and then ship the completed barrels to Everett where they would be riveted together. The cockpit assembly would have also been moved from Wichita to Japan so it could be integrated into the forward fuselage prior to shipment.

Called "Higher Level Assembly", this plan became the basis for 787 production and assembly.

Interesting. I didn't know about that plan for the 777. Very intriguing. Very logical. Which means when it happens, we shouldn't be surprised.

Again, I think final assembly will remain with IAM local 751 as it will be cost prohibitive to move it. But the wing and 'barrel stuffing' will probably be moved now.

Quoting frmrCapCadet (Reply 154):
You likely would agree that the worst combination is a monopoly du/ triopoly corporation with their equally powerful unions. I think Detroit and Pittsburg did exemplify that sort of power. And that power contributed to their self-destruction.

   Which is why the term 'rust belt' came up. To be competitive, one has to adapt. I'm for unions being the workers voice, but not for halting innovation with 'feather bedding' rules.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinerwessel From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2351 posts, RR: 2
Reply 157, posted (10 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 8046 times:
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Quoting lightsaber (Reply 156):
Anyone else have the last few posts scrambled? My post 153 is after replies to that post...
Our firewall at work?

It's related to the newest updates to Chrome. You may want to mention that you're having the problem here:

Report The Bugs Here (Part 5) (by moderators Aug 2 2013 in Site Related)

I don't know if this is a Chrome bug or an Airliners.net bug (IMO the former is more likely, but the latter is not impossible), but it's been showing up since some of the betas of Chrome 31.0.1650. Filing a bug report with Google can't hurt either.


User currently offlinejetblastdubai From United States of America, joined Aug 2013, 698 posts, RR: 0
Reply 158, posted (10 months 7 hours ago) and read 7771 times:
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[This week, Sawant became Seattle’s first elected Socialist council member. She ran on a platform of anti-capitalism, workers’ rights, and a $15 per-hour minimum wage for Seattle workers.

On Monday night, she spoke to supporters of Boeing Machinists, six days after they rejected a contract guaranteeing jobs in Everett building the new 777X airliner for eight years, in exchange for new workers giving up their guaranteed company pensions.

Now Boeing is threatening to take those jobs to other states. “That will be nothing short of economic terrorism because it's going to devastate the state's economy,” she said.

Sawant is calling for machinists to literally take-possession of the Everett airplane-building factory, if Boeing moves out. She calls that "democratic ownership."]

[Sawant says after workers “take-over” the Everett Boeing plant; they could build things everyone can use. “We can re-tool the machines to produce mass transit like buses, instead of destructive, you know, war machines,” she told KIRO 7.]

http://www.kirotv.com/news/news/seat...ber-elect-shares-radical-id/nbxbC/

This isn't going to end well.



A good landing is one you can walk away from. A great landing is when you can re-use the aircraft.
User currently offlinePygmalion From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 966 posts, RR: 37
Reply 159, posted (10 months 7 hours ago) and read 7748 times:

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 158):
Sawant says after workers “take-over” the Everett Boeing plant; they could build things everyone can use. “We can re-tool the machines to produce mass transit like buses, instead of destructive, you know, war machines,” she told KIRO 7.]

Clearly not in touch with reality. Boeing defense stuff is not built in Everett. There are no "war machines " built in Everett.

So they should stop building commercial airliners so they can build buses. because buses pollute more then commercial jets.

idiot


User currently offlinenry From United States of America, joined Aug 2013, 8 posts, RR: 0
Reply 160, posted (10 months 7 hours ago) and read 7714 times:

Wow. When you have made San Francisco politicians look moderate, you know you're out in left field.

User currently offlinejetblastdubai From United States of America, joined Aug 2013, 698 posts, RR: 0
Reply 161, posted (10 months 7 hours ago) and read 7708 times:
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Quoting Pygmalion (Reply 159):
idiot

However, these remarks were "made to a cheering crowd of union supporters" according to the article.

Time for more popcorn.



A good landing is one you can walk away from. A great landing is when you can re-use the aircraft.
User currently offlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2130 posts, RR: 4
Reply 162, posted (10 months 7 hours ago) and read 7721 times:

Quoting Pygmalion (Reply 159):
Clearly not in touch with reality. Boeing defense stuff is not built in Everett. There are no "war machines " built in Everett.

Fortunately Everett is not in her jurisdiction. Unfortunately Boeing Defense facility at Boeing Field is close enough for her to throw rocks at.

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 158):
“We can re-tool the machines to produce mass transit like buses, instead of destructive, you know, war machines,

Unfortunately if Boeing build buses they will go out of business because the buses would be too expensive 

High value commodities like airplanes, (specially military airplanes) require high wages workers.
Lower value commodities like buses and washing machine don't require IAM machinist to build them.

bt



Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
User currently onlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13120 posts, RR: 100
Reply 163, posted (10 months 7 hours ago) and read 7716 times:
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Quoting nry (Reply 160):
Wow. When you have made San Francisco politicians look moderate, you know you're out in left field.

   Yep.

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 161):
However, these remarks were "made to a cheering crowd of union supporters" according to the article.

Time for more popcorn.

Anyone doubt there will be a strike when the contract is over? Heck, that was to be expected anyway.

This just means more 'barrel stuffing' and the wing work goes elsewhere.   


Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6907 posts, RR: 46
Reply 164, posted (10 months 6 hours ago) and read 7682 times: