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OAG Changes 11/15/2013: DL/UA/Y4/ZK  
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7183 posts, RR: 13
Posted (10 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 10518 times:

FAQ

WHAT IS THIS REPORT?
This compares what is for sale THIS WEEK for the stated period versus what was for sale LAST WEEK...It does NOT compare to last year or now (UNLESS OTHERWISE STATED).

HOW DO I READ IT?
XXX-YYY DEC 4>5 JAN 4>5 ; means that the listed airline changed the frequency between the two airports to add from 4 to 5 roundtrips in December and January. No other months were changed. I only list one direction, although it is possible the listed change is only one way. It is too difficult to average the two directions. I assume the change is roundtrip and that is most often the case.

HOW ARE THE DAILY DEPARTURES CALCULATED?
This report uses total operations for the month listed, divided over the days in the month.

WHAT ARE THE FRACTIONAL FLIGHTS?
Non-daily operations create fractional weekly service. In most cases flights are rounded, but in the case of international service or markets with low frequency, fractions are shown. If a flight operates less than daily it will become affected by the unqual number of days in each month. For example, if a flight runs on Tuesdays only and a month has 5 Tuesdays it will show 5/31=.16=0.2 (if 31 days), but 4/31=.129=.1 if the month has 4 Tuesdays.

WHAT ABOUT CARRIERS THAT DON'T PUBLISH A SCHEDULE 9 MONTHS IN ADVANCE?
Most airlines publish schedules 11 months in advance. This report covers the next 9 months. That avoids seeing schedules as they are loaded. Several LCCs load their schedules less than 9 months into the future. I remove the schedule adds if I see them and show a year over year (YOY) comparison if I notice them.

THOSE FLIGHTS AREN'T DELTA, THEY ARE PINNACLE
This report only shows the marketing code. It is too complicated to show all the operators.

THE FREQUENCIES MAY HAVE CHANGED AS YOU SHOW, BUT THE SEATS DIDNT CHANGE BECAUSE OF EQUIPMENT SWAPS
That is a natural weakness of a frequency based report, but it provides something to discuss below.

THIS LOOKS LIKE AN ERROR?
The carriers file the schedules. They do make mistakes. Most of the mistakes I have seen are either related to code shares not being marked as "duplicates" or carriers filing flights with invalid data such as equipment codes that are not standard. This causes flights to not appear.

CHARTERS?
Lately charters have been showing up in the database. I have no idea if that will continue.

I marked some of the ones I thought were interesting with an "*".


7H GAL-KYU DEC 0>0.7 JAN 0>0.7 FEB 0>0.7 MAR 0>0.7 APR 0>0.7 MAY 0>0.7 JUN 0>0.7 JUL 0>0.7
7H HSL-KYU DEC 0.8>0 JAN 0.8>0 FEB 0.9>0 MAR 0.8>0 APR 0.9>0 MAY 0.8>0 JUN 0.9>0 JUL 0.9>0
7H KYU-NUL DEC 0>0.7 JAN 0>0.7 FEB 0>0.7 MAR 0>0.7 APR 0>0.7 MAY 0>0.7 JUN 0>0.7 JUL 0>0.7

AA DFW-CHS FEB 3>2 MAR 3>2 APR 3>2 MAY 3>2 JUN 3>2 JUL 3>2

AB JFK-TXL MAY 1.0>1.3 JUN 1.0>1.4 JUL 1.0>1.5
AB MIA-TXL MAY 0.7>1.0 JUN 0.7>1.0 JUL 0.7>1.0
AB ORD-TXL MAY 0.7>1.0 JUN 0.7>1.0 JUL 0.7>1.0

AM ORD-MEX APR 3>4
AM SAT-MEX JAN 3>1.5 FEB 2>1.0 MAR 2>1.0 APR 2>1.0 MAY 2>1.0 JUN 2>1.0 JUL 2>1.0

AS HNL-OAK APR 0.9>0.4 MAY 0.9>0.4 JUN 1.0>0.4 JUL 1.0>0.4
AS HNL-SJC APR 0.9>0.6 MAY 0.9>0.6 JUN 1.0>0.6 JUL 1.0>0.6

BW JFK-POS APR 2>3 MAY 2>3 JUN 2>3 JUL 2>3

DL ATL-BHM FEB 8>10
DL ATL-IAH FEB 9>8 MAR 9>8
DL ATL-MGM MAR 9>8 APR 9>8
DL ATL-OAJ JUL 6>5
DL ATL-SAV FEB 9>8 JUL 11>10
DL ATL-SGF MAR 6>5
DL ATL-XNA FEB 8>7

Taken as a group looks like retaliation by DL against B6
*DL DTW-BOS MAR 7>8 APR 7>8 MAY 7>8
*DL BOS-CUN MAY 0>0.2 JUN 0>0.1 JUL 0>0.1
*DL BOS-JAX MAR 0>0.9 APR 0>1.0 MAY 0>1.0 JUN 0>1.0 JUL 0>1.0
*DL BOS-NAS MAR 0>0.1 APR 0>0.1 MAY 0>0.2 JUN 0>0.1 JUL 0>0.1
*DL BOS-ORF MAR 1.8>0 APR 1.9>0 MAY 1.8>0 JUN 2>0 JUL 2>0
*DL BOS-PLS MAR 0>0.1 APR 0>0.1 MAY 0>0.2 JUN 0>0.1 JUL 0>0.1
*DL BOS-RIC MAR 0>1.9 APR 0>2 MAY 0>2 JUN 0>2 JUL 0>2
*DL JFK-PLS MAR 0>0.1 APR 0>0.1 MAY 0>0.2 JUN 0>0.1 JUL 0>0.1

DL BWI-RDU JUN 4>3 JUL 4>3
DL BZN-MSP FEB 3>2
DL CVG-DFW FEB 3>1.6
TOL redo?
**DL DTW-FNT JAN 3>0.3 FEB 3>0 MAR 3>0 APR 3>0 MAY 3>0 JUN 3>0 JUL 3>0
*DL FNT-MSP APR 1.9>3 MAY 1.8>3 JUN 2>3 JUL 2>3
DL DTW-LEX MAR 6>5 APR 6>5 MAY 6>5
DL DTW-MHT MAR 3>4
DL DTW-MKE MAR 7>6 APR 7>6
DL DTW-MSP JAN 9>8 MAR 9>8 APR 9>8 MAY 9>8 JUN 9>8 JUL 9>8
DL DTW-PVD JUL 5>4
*DL DTW-SAN MAR 3>1.8 APR 3>1.5
DL DTW-SBN MAR 6>5 APR 6>5 MAY 6>5
DL DTW-SFO MAR 4>3
DL DTW-TVC JUN 6>7
DL HNL-SFO FEB 0.4>0.3
DL IAD-MSP FEB 3>1.9
DL IND-MSP JUN 7>6 JUL 7>6
DL JFK-AUS MAR 1.8>1.0
*DL JFK-MCI APR 1.0>0 MAY 1.0>0 JUN 1.0>0 JUL 1.0>0
*DL LAX-HNL APR 3>4 MAY 3>4 JUN 3>4 JUL 3>4
*DL LAX-OAK MAY 7>8 JUN 7>8 JUL 7>8
*DL LAX-PDX MAY 4>5 JUN 4>5 JUL 4>5
*DL LAX-SJC MAY 5>6 JUN 5>6 JUL 5>6
DL LGA-ROA FEB 0.9>0.4 MAR 0.8>0 APR 0.9>0 MAY 0.8>0 JUN 0.9>0 JUL 1.0>0
DL MCO-RDU FEB 3>2
*DL MEM-BOS JAN 0.8>0.1 FEB 0.9>0 MAR 0.8>0 APR 0.9>0 MAY 0.8>0 JUN 0.9>0 JUL 0.9>0
*DL MEM-CVG JAN 3>1.1 FEB 3>0.9 MAR 3>0.7 APR 3>0.7 MAY 3>0.7 JUN 3>0.7 JUL 3>0.7
Slots go where?
**DL MEM-DCA JAN 1.5>0.2 FEB 1.6>0 MAR 1.5>0 APR 1.6>0 MAY 1.5>0 JUN 1.6>0 JUL 1.6>0
*DL MEM-LGA JAN 1.7>1.0 FEB 1.7>0.9 MAR 1.6>0.8 APR 1.7>0.9 MAY 1.7>0.8 JUN 1.7>0.9 JUL 1.7>0.9
DL MLI-MSP FEB 1.4>0.9
DL MOT-MSP JUN 7>6 JUL 7>6
DL MSO-MSP MAY 1.0>2
DL RDU-TPA FEB 1.5>1.0
DL SLC-EKO JAN 4>3 FEB 4>3 MAR 4>3 APR 4>3 MAY 4>3 JUN 4>3 JUL 4>3
DL SLC-OKC FEB 1.5>1.0

F9 CMH-TTN JAN 0.3>0.1

G4 AVL-PIE APR 0.4>0.3 MAY 0.4>0.3 JUN 0.4>0.3 JUL 0.5>0.3
G4 AZA-CID MAY 0.3>1.0 JUN 0.3>1.0 JUL 0.3>1.0
G4 AZA-FAR MAY 0.4>1.2 JUN 0.4>1.1 JUL 0.4>1.1
G4 BGR-PIE MAY 0.6>0.4 JUN 0.6>0.4 JUL 0.6>0.5
G4 FLL-GRR APR 0.4>0.3 MAY 0.4>0.3 JUN 0.4>0.3 JUL 0.5>0.3
G4 FLL-GSP APR 0.4>0.3 MAY 0.4>0.3 JUN 0.4>0.3 JUL 0.5>0.3
G4 FLL-TYS MAY 0.6>0.4 JUN 0.6>0.4 JUL 0.6>0.5
G4 PIA-PIE MAY 0.7>0.6 JUN 0.7>0.6
G4 PIE-TOL MAY 0.7>0.6
G4 SBN-SFB MAY 0.4>1.2 JUN 0.4>1.2 JUL 0.4>1.1

HA HNL-JFK FEB 1.0>0.8 MAR 1.0>0.7 APR 1.0>0.8

IG JFK-NAP MAY 0>0.1 JUN 0>0.5 JUL 0>0.6
IG JFK-PMO JUN 0>0.3 JUL 0>0.3

MW HNM-JHM DEC 1.0>0 JAN 1.0>0 FEB 1.0>0 MAR 1.0>0 APR 1.0>0 MAY 1.0>0 JUN 1.0>0 JUL 1.0>0

*OR MIA-AMS APR 0>0.3 MAY 0>0.3 JUN 0>0.3 JUL 0>0.5

PD BOS-YTZ APR 6>7 MAY 6>7 JUN 6>7 JUL 7>8

S3 MIA-CCS DEC 3>4 JAN 3>4 FEB 3>4 MAR 3>4

SY DFW-CUN MAY 0.6>0.8 JUN 0>1.8 JUL 0>1.8
SY DFW-CZM JUN 0>0.6 JUL 0>0.5
SY DFW-LIR JUN 0>0.1 JUL 0>0.1
SY DFW-MBJ JUN 0>0.3 JUL 0>0.3
SY DFW-MSP JUN 0>1.1 JUL 0>1.1
SY DFW-PUJ JUN 0>0.6 JUL 0>0.6
SY DFW-PVR JUN 0>0.3 JUL 0>0.3
SY MSP-CUN JUN 0>0.4 JUL 0>0.4

TCX LAS-MAN MAY 0.3>0.4 JUN 0.3>0.4 JUL 0.3>0.4

*UA CLE-PHX JUN 1.0>0.1 JUL 1.0>0
UA DEN-GUC JUL 1.0>2.0
UA DEN-HDN JUL 2>3
UA DEN-PVR JUL 0.3>0.1
UA IAD-FLL JAN 1.0>0.8
UA IAH-MEX MAY 8>9
UA IAH-MTY MAY 8>9
UA ORD-YOW APR 5>6 MAY 5>6 JUN 5>6 JUL 5>6
UA ORD-YVR JUN 4>5 JUL 4>5
UA SFO-EWR FEB 11>10

*UX MIA-MAD JUN 0>0.4 JUL 0>0.4

*V2 GPT-PIE DEC 0.7>0 JAN 0.7>0 FEB 0.7>0 MAR 0.7>0 APR 0.7>0 MAY 0.7>0 JUN 0.7>0 JUL 0.7>0

VX BOS-SFO MAY 1.8>3 JUN 1.9>3 JUL 1.8>3

Y4 DEN-MEX JAN 0.8>0.3 FEB 0.9>0.3 MAR 0.9>0.3 APR 0.9>0.3 MAY 0.8>0.3 JUN 0.9>0.3 JUL 0.8>0.3
Y4 LAX-GDL DEC 3>4
Y4 LAX-MEX DEC 0.9>1.0 JAN 1.0>0.7 FEB 1.0>0.6 MAR 1.0>0.6 APR 1.0>0.5 MAY 1.0>0.6 JUN 1.0>0.6 JUL 1.0>0.5
Y4 LAX-ZCL FEB 0.6>0.4 MAR 0.6>0.5 APR 0.6>0.4 MAY 0.5>0.4 JUN 0.6>0.5 JUL 0.5>0.4
Y4 MCO-MEX JAN 1.0>0.6 FEB 1.0>0.6 MAR 1.0>0.5 APR 1.0>0.6 MAY 1.0>0.6 JUN 1.0>0.5 JUL 1.0>0.6
Y4 MDW-MEX DEC 0.7>0.3 JAN 0.9>0 FEB 0.9>0 MAR 0.8>0 APR 0.9>0 MAY 0.9>0 JUN 0.8>0 JUL 0.9>0
Y4 OAK-MEX JAN 0.5>0 FEB 0.6>0 MAR 0.6>0 APR 0.5>0 MAY 0.6>0 JUN 0.6>0 JUL 0.5>0
Y4 ORD-MEX DEC 0>0.5 JAN 0>1.0 FEB 0>1.0 MAR 0>1.0 APR 0>1.0 MAY 0>1.0 JUN 0>1.0 JUL 0>1.0
Y4 PHX-MEX DEC 0>0.4 JAN 0>0.4 FEB 0>0.3 MAR 0>0.3 APR 0>0.3 MAY 0>0.3 JUN 0>0.3 JUL 0>0.3
Y4 SAN-GDL JAN 0.5>0.2 FEB 0.4>0 MAR 0.4>0 APR 0.4>0 MAY 0.5>0 JUN 0.4>0 JUL 0.4>0
Y4 SAN-MEX JAN 1.0>0.6 FEB 1.0>0.6 MAR 1.0>0.6 APR 1.0>0.5 MAY 1.0>0.6 JUN 1.0>0.6 JUL 1.0>0.5
Y4 SAT-GDL DEC 0>0.2 JAN 0>0.3 FEB 0>0.3 MAR 0>0.3 APR 0>0.3 MAY 0>0.3 JUN 0>0.3 JUL 0>0.3
Y4 SJC-GDL JAN 1.4>1.1 FEB 1.4>1.0 MAR 1.5>1.0 APR 1.4>1.0 MAY 1.4>1.0 JUN 1.5>1.0 JUL 1.4>1.0
Y4 SMF-GDL DEC 0.6>0.9 JAN 0.9>0.5 FEB 0.9>0.6 MAR 0.8>0.6 APR 0.9>0.6 MAY 0.9>0.6 JUN 0.8>0.6 JUL 0.9>0.6

ZK DEN-PIR DEC 3>1.0 JAN 3>1.0 FEB 3>1.0 MAR 3>1.0 APR 3>1.0 MAY 3>1.0 JUN 3>1.0 JUL 3>1.0
ZK DVL-MSP DEC 2>1.0 JAN 2>1.0 FEB 2>1.0 MAR 2>1.0 APR 2>1.0 MAY 2>1.0 JUN 2>1.0 JUL 2>1.0
*ZK FOD-MCW DEC 0>1.0 JAN 0>1.0 FEB 0>1.0 MAR 0>1.0 APR 0>1.0 MAY 0>1.0 JUN 0>1.0 JUL 0>1.0
ZK FOD-MSP DEC 3>1.7 JAN 3>1.7 FEB 3>1.7 MAR 3>1.7 APR 3>1.7 MAY 3>1.7 JUN 3>1.7 JUL 3>1.7
ZK JMS-MSP DEC 3>2 JAN 3>2 FEB 3>2 MAR 3>2 APR 3>2 MAY 3>2 JUN 3>2 JUL 3>2
ZK MCW-MSP DEC 4>3 JAN 4>3 FEB 4>3 MAR 4>3 APR 4>3 MAY 4>3 JUN 4>3 JUL 4>3

101 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2758 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (10 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 10293 times:

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
AB JFK-TXL MAY 1.0>1.3 JUN 1.0>1.4 JUL 1.0>1.5
AB MIA-TXL MAY 0.7>1.0 JUN 0.7>1.0 JUL 0.7>1.0
AB ORD-TXL MAY 0.7>1.0 JUN 0.7>1.0 JUL 0.7>1.0

Looks like Berlin is getting some love from the U.S., and OW is giving it.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
Taken as a group looks like retaliation by DL against B6

Hmmmmm..... maybe..... BOS-JAX with a new daily, and then BOS-RDU with a couple of dailies...... probably having birds with nothing to do since MEM is being cut to smitherines..... otherwise, the other routes amount to 4 weekly......

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
F9 CMH-TTN JAN 0.3>0.1

Trying to survive January?

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
G4 AZA-CID MAY 0.3>1.0 JUN 0.3>1.0 JUL 0.3>1.0
G4 AZA-FAR MAY 0.4>1.2 JUN 0.4>1.1 JUL 0.4>1.1
............
G4 SBN-SFB MAY 0.4>1.2 JUN 0.4>1.2 JUL 0.4>1.1

Looks like there's enough from middle America for Phoenix to go daily and even more and yet.....

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
*UA CLE-PHX JUN 1.0>0.1 JUL 1.0>0

...... a big city like Cleveland can't work with a daily to Phoenix, since UA is the only carrier here? Maybe fares have something to do with this?

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
Y4 DEN-MEX JAN 0.8>0.3 FEB 0.9>0.3 MAR 0.9>0.3 APR 0.9>0.3 MAY 0.8>0.3 JUN 0.9>0.3 JUL 0.8>0.3
DEN-MEX carriers and frequencies seem to be changed more than diapers on a baby with diarrhea......

 



[Edited 2013-11-11 06:53:01]

User currently offlineflyinryan99 From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 2004 posts, RR: 13
Reply 2, posted (10 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 10182 times:

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
TOL redo?
**DL DTW-FNT JAN 3>0.3 FEB 3>0 MAR 3>0 APR 3>0 MAY 3>0 JUN 3>0 JUL 3>0
*DL FNT-MSP APR 1.9>3 MAY 1.8>3 JUN 2>3 JUL 2>3

I doubt it..I think they usually go to 3 flights a day to MSP in the summer...can't remember. Difference is, FNT still has ATL on DL...I think this is a bigger ploy to eliminate the lower yield connecting flow. I wonder if WN flying to BWI was eroding a lot of their yields to the East from FNT... Interesting none the less..


User currently offlinemichman From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 505 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (10 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 10142 times:

I don't see DL pulling out of FNT. Unlike TOL, there's too many competitors there for them to ignore. In addition to the MSP flights, there's also service to ATL. More likely, this is related to the reductions in CRJ flying.

User currently offlinecodc10 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2412 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 10104 times:

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
*UA CLE-PHX JUN 1.0>0.1 JUL 1.0>0

Doubt UA is leaving the market, more likely a temporary pulldown during the slow season in PHX.


User currently offlinemhkansan From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 681 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 10084 times:

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
AB JFK-TXL MAY 1.0>1.3 JUN 1.0>1.4 JUL 1.0>1.5
AB MIA-TXL MAY 0.7>1.0 JUN 0.7>1.0 JUL 0.7>1.0
AB ORD-TXL MAY 0.7>1.0 JUN 0.7>1.0 JUL 0.7>1.0

Wow! That's great to see the AB flights so successful to ORD. I wonder how much they will be duking it out with OS in ORD for the Eastern-European connecting traffic. AB is starting to look like a comprehensive network carrier. Time to order some more 787s or A332s!

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
*DL JFK-MCI APR 1.0>0 MAY 1.0>0 JUN 1.0>0 JUL 1.0>0

long, thin routes like this have trouble sticking at MCI. MCI-DCA gets cut by F9, MCI-SFO is still only RJs on UA, and the link to the European departures bank at JFK is cut. I wonder if AA will see this as an opportunity with a CR7 perhaps?

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
**DL DTW-FNT JAN 3>0.3 FEB 3>0 MAR 3>0 APR 3>0 MAY 3>0 JUN 3>0 JUL 3>0

This almost has to be an error. DL sends MD-80s to FNT from ATL!


User currently offlinecle757 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1136 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 10059 times:

Quoting codc10 (Reply 4):

Doubt UA is leaving the market, more likely a temporary pulldown during the slow season in PHX

They probably will add CLE-PDX for the summer like this past summer



Cleveland the best location in the Nation
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7183 posts, RR: 13
Reply 7, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 9929 times:

Quoting point2point (Reply 1):
Hmmmmm..... maybe..... BOS-JAX with a new daily, and then BOS-RDU with a couple of dailies...... probably having birds with nothing to do since MEM is being cut to smitherines..... otherwise, the other routes amount to 4 weekly......

Can't agree. If it was JFK I might say so, but DL lost BOS a long time ago (if they ever had it). B6 owns BOS now, this is too little too late and the timing is curious. DL got booted from PIT-BOS when they tried that.

Quoting flyinryan99 (Reply 2):
I wonder if WN flying to BWI was eroding a lot of their yields to the East from FNT

Judging from the loads in T100 it is only eroding EN's profits at this point.

Quoting mhkansan (Reply 5):
long, thin routes like this have trouble sticking at MCI.

Yeah, I agree. That is a big loss in terms of int'l access. A lot of int'l routes become two stops with that going away.

Quoting mhkansan (Reply 5):
Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
**DL DTW-FNT JAN 3>0.3 FEB 3>0 MAR 3>0 APR 3>0 MAY 3>0 JUN 3>0 JUL 3>0

This almost has to be an error. DL sends MD-80s to FNT from ATL!

Hearing it isn't an error


User currently offlineAlsatian From France, joined May 2005, 423 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 9928 times:

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
DL ATL-BHM FEB 8>10

Currently operated by a mix of M88 D95 CR7 320 CRJ > to be all 319

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
DL LAX-OAK MAY 7>8 JUN 7>8 JUL 7>8

Currently operated by a mix of CR9 CR7 > to be all CR7

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
DL LAX-PDX MAY 4>5 JUN 4>5 JUL 4>5

Currently operated by a mix of CR9 CR7 > to be all CR9

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
DL LAX-SJC MAY 5>6 JUN 5>6 JUL 5>6

Currently operated by a mix of CR7 CR9 > to be all CR7



Ok I am French but I am not on strike
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7183 posts, RR: 13
Reply 9, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 9884 times:

Quoting Alsatian (Reply 8):
Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
DL ATL-BHM FEB 8>10

Currently operated by a mix of M88 D95 CR7 320 CRJ > to be all 319

They are upgauging and increasing flights???


User currently onlineadamh8297 From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 902 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 9779 times:

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):

Taken as a group looks like retaliation by DL against B6

Wow - DL means serious business here even though the majority of the attack is on leisure routes. It would be more interesting if DL did something like double BOS-RDU capacity.


Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
DL DTW-MHT MAR 3>4

I would include this as part of the retaliation as well.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
*DL BOS-ORF MAR 1.8>0 APR 1.9>0 MAY 1.8>0 JUN 2>0 JUL 2>0
*DL BOS-RIC MAR 0>1.9 APR 0>2 MAY 0>2 JUN 0>2 JUL 0>2

Why enter RIC when you had Hampton Roads metro to yourself?

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
DL BOS-JAX MAR 0>0.9 APR 0>1.0 MAY 0>1.0 JUN 0>1.0 JUL 0>1.0

This one looks permanent and not seasonal I guess??

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
*DL BOS-CUN MAY 0>0.2 JUN 0>0.1 JUL 0>0.1

Wasn't DL serving this weekly year-round at some point?


User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7183 posts, RR: 13
Reply 11, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 9748 times:

Quoting adamh8297 (Reply 10):
Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
*DL BOS-ORF MAR 1.8>0 APR 1.9>0 MAY 1.8>0 JUN 2>0 JUL 2>0
*DL BOS-RIC MAR 0>1.9 APR 0>2 MAY 0>2 JUN 0>2 JUL 0>2

Why enter RIC when you had Hampton Roads metro to yourself?

I know.

Quoting adamh8297 (Reply 10):
Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
*DL BOS-CUN MAY 0>0.2 JUN 0>0.1 JUL 0>0.1

Wasn't DL serving this weekly year-round at some point?

Yes, but they pulled most of those pt2pt CUN flights.


User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4282 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 9723 times:
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Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
UA IAD-FLL JAN 1.0>0.8

Funny route. I've flown full 757s. Yet some weekends a CR7 would fill the bill (as with IAD-MIA).

Quoting codc10 (Reply 4):
Doubt UA is leaving the market, more likely a temporary pulldown during the slow season in PHX.

The last time I flew this route as pmCO, there were as many non-revs on the plane as paying clients. I remember the flight because some of the non-revs sat in the back and let their children take empty seats in the front. I was in 1-F, and my seatmate in 1-E turned out to be a talkative 10 year old who wanted to know why I was even allowed on the plane if I didn't live in Cleveland.  boggled 

[Edited 2013-11-11 08:49:38]

User currently offlineAlsatian From France, joined May 2005, 423 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 9630 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 9):
They are upgauging and increasing flights???

Weird indeed but starting march there are even 11 flights on weekdays all operated by A319.



Ok I am French but I am not on strike
User currently offlineapodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4277 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 9611 times:

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
*DL BOS-RIC MAR 0>1.9 APR 0>2 MAY 0>2 JUN 0>2 JUL 0>2

This is actually a US route. I really don't know what is going on here, but they may be trying to grab some market share and hope that US pulls out and falls back on cornerstones after the merger, since really the long term future of some P2P's out of BOS are somewhat uncertain on US. (I believe the BOS P2Ps, plus LGA-PIT are the only non hub routes US has left in their system)

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
*DL BOS-ORF MAR 1.8>0 APR 1.9>0 MAY 1.8>0 JUN 2>0 JUL 2>0

Then again, DL may have not had much luck on this route and they are moving it to RIC to hit a bigger catchment area.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
Y4 MDW-MEX DEC 0.7>0.3 JAN 0.9>0 FEB 0.9>0 MAR 0.8>0 APR 0.9>0 MAY 0.9>0 JUN 0.8>0 JUL 0.9>0
Quoting enilria (Thread starter):

Y4 ORD-MEX DEC 0>0.5 JAN 0>1.0 FEB 0>1.0 MAR 0>1.0 APR 0>1.0 MAY 0>1.0 JUN 0>1.0 JUL 0>1.0

As expected and long rumored on here. The only reason this flight was at MDW is because of the WN codeshare. WIth that gone, there is no reason really for them to be at MDW, plus I think WN would like to get their hands on the FIS gates at MDW.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
VX BOS-SFO MAY 1.8>3 JUN 1.9>3 JUL 1.8>3

VX is quietly becoming number 2 on this route. I don't even know what UA is at on this route anymore.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
DL LGA-ROA FEB 0.9>0.4 MAR 0.8>0 APR 0.9>0 MAY 0.8>0 JUN 0.9>0 JUL 1.0>0

There has been so much focus about what US is doing with slots at DCA, that we forget about DL and the LGA slots that were also a part of the deal. Looks like ROA is one of the first casualties on that front. MEM loses a daily frequency as well out of LGA, and it doesn't seem like DL has reallocated these slots, so I don't know who gains at these cities expense.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
*UA CLE-PHX JUN 1.0>0.1 JUL 1.0>0

Since US doesn't fly this route, this was the Star Alliance presence on the route, and with US going to OW, there may not be a need to fly this route anymore nonstop. With CLE's future as a UA hub not real good to begin with, this may be the first of many we see here.

Quoting enilria (Reply 7):
Quoting mhkansan (Reply 5):
long, thin routes like this have trouble sticking at MCI.

Yeah, I agree. That is a big loss in terms of int'l access. A lot of int'l routes become two stops with that going away.

Which DL routes are only flown out of JFK? Because it would seem to me like DL could funnel such connections over other hubs? This could be very good for AA, as they are pretty strong in MCI, and will gain PHL soon. The other thing is if the destinations that are JFK only on Delta don't generate a lot of traffic from MCI, then DL may just be cutting losses and focusing on O and D to LGA instead, where because you fly the route, JFK is little more than a feeder flight that is overly redundant due to other hubs, mainly DTW and ATL. Of course I have known DL to sell itineraries with an airport transfer in NYC as well.

Quoting michman (Reply 3):
I don't see DL pulling out of FNT. Unlike TOL, there's too many competitors there for them to ignore. In addition to the MSP flights, there's also service to ATL. More likely, this is related to the reductions in CRJ flying.

I think its a combination of that, and basically DL not wanting people to take advantage of the old DAY loophole, where it was cheaper to buy a ticket from DAY and connect through CVG than it was to fly nonstop from CVG. Obviously DL wants you to do the latter if possible since they make more money, and probably lose it the other way. The only difference is now its FNT and DTW instead of DAY and CVG.


User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5431 posts, RR: 12
Reply 15, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 9485 times:

A couple of interesting Hawaii moves:

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
AS HNL-OAK APR 0.9>0.4 MAY 0.9>0.4 JUN 1.0>0.4 JUL 1.0>0.4
AS HNL-SJC APR 0.9>0.6 MAY 0.9>0.6 JUN 1.0>0.6 JUL 1.0>0.6

This furthers my opinion that the East Bay area is the center of the juggling of flights between AS and HA -- kind of the center of their on-going shoving match over service to the Islands.

And speaking of Hawaii, this is an interesting reduction as well.
Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
HA HNL-JFK FEB 1.0>0.8 MAR 1.0>0.7 APR 1.0>0.8


This is a curious move by DL, something that hasn't happened before in recent memory:
Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
*DL DTW-SAN MAR 3>1.8 APR 3>1.5
Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
DEN-MEX carriers and frequencies seem to be changed more than diapers on a baby with diarrhea......

Great comment which, IMHO, applies in some other Volaris markets as well:
Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
Y4 SAN-GDL JAN 0.5>0.2 FEB 0.4>0 MAR 0.4>0 APR 0.4>0 MAY 0.5>0 JUN 0.4>0 JUL 0.4>0
Y4 SAN-MEX JAN 1.0>0.6 FEB 1.0>0.6 MAR 1.0>0.6 APR 1.0>0.5 MAY 1.0>0.6 JUN 1.0>0.6 JUL 1.0>0.5


bb


User currently offlineKarlB737 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3105 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 9436 times:

Quoting michman (Reply 3):
More likely, this is related to the reductions in CRJ flying.

I agree with michman in that if you're determined to get rid of the CRJ-200s that route (DTW-FNT) has to go. I wonder if DTW-MBS will go as well or just be altered to fewer frequencies and a CRJ-900. I think we can expect much more of this in the remaining CRJ-200 stations.

[Edited 2013-11-11 08:47:22]

[Edited 2013-11-11 08:48:03]

User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7183 posts, RR: 13
Reply 17, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 9175 times:

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 12):
Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
UA IAD-FLL JAN 1.0>0.8

Funny route. I've flown full 757s. Yet some weekends a CR7 would fill the bill (as with IAD-MIA).

IAD is a leisure wasteland. I wonder how long B6 will stay there outside of the BOS service which I think they have to stay in or somebody else will do it.

Quoting Alsatian (Reply 13):
Quoting enilria (Reply 9):
They are upgauging and increasing flights???

Weird indeed but starting march there are even 11 flights on weekdays all operated by A319.

It's probably an error or otherwise temp schedule.

Quoting apodino (Reply 14):
This is actually a US route.

But B6 is the target.

Quoting apodino (Reply 14):
Then again, DL may have not had much luck on this route and they are moving it to RIC to hit a bigger catchment area.

That's probably also true, but because B6 made RIC cheaper.

Quoting apodino (Reply 14):
There has been so much focus about what US is doing with slots at DCA, that we forget about DL and the LGA slots that were also a part of the deal.

True. I should have starred the ROA drop. Missed it.

Quoting apodino (Reply 14):
Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
*UA CLE-PHX JUN 1.0>0.1 JUL 1.0>0

Since US doesn't fly this route, this was the Star Alliance presence on the route, and with US going to OW, there may not be a need to fly this route anymore nonstop.

WN will add it I suspect.

Quoting apodino (Reply 14):
Yeah, I agree. That is a big loss in terms of int'l access. A lot of int'l routes become two stops with that going away.

Which DL routes are only flown out of JFK?

There are a bunch actually that DL is flying Summer only now, but I was speaking also to all the interline options at JFK.

Quoting SANFan (Reply 15):
This is a curious move by DL, something that hasn't happened before in recent memory:
Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
*DL DTW-SAN MAR 3>1.8 APR 3>1.5

I agree. Probably where the PDX plane came from now that it is running all year.

Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 16):
I agree with michman in that if you're determined to get rid of the CRJ-200s that route (DTW-FNT) has to go.

A lot more routes will die as a result of the CRJ-200's eventual demise.


User currently offlineknope2001 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2911 posts, RR: 30
Reply 18, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 8927 times:

DTW-FNT has several strikes against it:

--Zero local traffic

--FNT yields have not been good for years

--With FNT-ATL able to reasonably handle the large bulk of Flint-origin traffic, there's no need for FNT-DTW. Delta will happily sell you FNT-ATL-PHL or FNT-ATL-BNA.

--Some looking for cheaper fares or more segments...especially the 2m in metro Deroit's Oakland and Macomb counties...will book FNT-DTW-XXX instead of DTW-XXX. That behavior is nothing Delta probably wants to subsidize. In theory peopel can just drive the extra 35 minutes up to MBS to fly MBS-DTW-XXX, or other LAN-DTW-XXX. But neither MBS nor LAN has LCC fares like Flint does. And neither MBS nor LAN has Atlanta nonstops to offset the loss of DTW flights.

So....I doni't see FNT as turning into TOL on Delta.


User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5431 posts, RR: 12
Reply 19, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 8928 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 17):

Quoting SANFan (Reply 15):
Quote:
This is a curious move by DL, something that hasn't happened before in recent memory:
Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
*DL DTW-SAN MAR 3>1.8 APR 3>1.5
I agree. Probably where the PDX plane came from now that it is running all year

Or perhaps providing the funding for some of the new SEA-flights?

In any case, it seems to tell me that SAN-DTW has not been doing all that well... Which still surprises me.

bb


User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2226 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 8878 times:

Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 16):
Quoting michman (Reply 3): More likely, this is related to the reductions in CRJ flying.
I agree with michman in that if you're determined to get rid of the CRJ-200s that route (DTW-FNT) has to go. I wonder if DTW-MBS will go as well or just be altered to fewer frequencies and a CRJ-900.

MBS is a major market for corporate travel (Dow Chemical), so I think DL is more likely to make the route a CRJ-900, to ensure Dow travelers can continue to fly MBS-Europe / Asia via DTW.



Seaholm Maples are #1!
User currently onlineANA787 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 284 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 8605 times:

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
DL HNL-SFO FEB 0.4>0.3

This route has constantly been cut down. Surprised DL is still holding on to this route. Thought it would've gone with the NRT route.


User currently offlineMSPNWA From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1944 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 8440 times:

Oooh, this was a good week to discuss changes. As always, thanks for posting the OAG reports.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
**DL DTW-FNT JAN 3>0.3 FEB 3>0 MAR 3>0 APR 3>0 MAY 3>0 JUN 3>0 JUL 3>0

WN must be happy to pick up the additional connecting traffic. FNT-MSP works well for the west half of the country, but FNT-ATL is just completely out of the way for travel to the northeast. FNT-BWI should do better with this cut.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
DL DTW-MSP JAN 9>8 MAR 9>8 APR 9>8 MAY 9>8 JUN 9>8 JUL 9>8

In my book this was a star. Only 8x even during the summer? It's getting tough to connect through DET from MSP. Frequency and gauge is way down since pre-DL, and the flights are packed. So the good fares are all through - you guessed it - ATL.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
*DL DTW-SAN MAR 3>1.8 APR 3>1.5

Ouch. Wasn't a good week for DTW. During vacation time too?

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
*DL LAX-HNL APR 3>4 MAY 3>4 JUN 3>4 JUL 3>4

Wow, a DL ADDITION to HNL from the mainland!

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):

*DL MEM-BOS JAN 0.8>0.1 FEB 0.9>0 MAR 0.8>0 APR 0.9>0 MAY 0.8>0 JUN 0.9>0 JUL 0.9>0
*DL MEM-CVG JAN 3>1.1 FEB 3>0.9 MAR 3>0.7 APR 3>0.7 MAY 3>0.7 JUN 3>0.7 JUL 3>0.7
Slots go where?
**DL MEM-DCA JAN 1.5>0.2 FEB 1.6>0 MAR 1.5>0 APR 1.6>0 MAY 1.5>0 JUN 1.6>0 JUL 1.6>0
*DL MEM-LGA JAN 1.7>1.0 FEB 1.7>0.9 MAR 1.6>0.8 APR 1.7>0.9 MAY 1.7>0.8 JUN 1.7>0.9 JUL 1.7>0.9

This is crazy. MEM loses DL service to two large non-hub markets. And service to two hubs get put on life support, including all of New York. Unbelievable. To put into perspective, MEM-LGA will be down to the same frequency as the soon-to-be-cut ROA is today. That's hard to fathom.


User currently offlineyellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6171 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 8361 times:

Quoting adamh8297 (Reply 10):
Quoting enilria (Thread starter):

Taken as a group looks like retaliation by DL against B6

If I were DL Management….my thinking would go like this.

1) B6 are mostly boxed in at JFK
2) You do not want B6 to start to grow outside of JFK because if they succeed, by default they get stronger at JFK.
3) B6 seems to have found a foothold at BOS

So…part of your business plan must now entail keeping B6 from growing any more at BOS….even if it means small losses for you….because if you don't it can mean even bigger losses down the road at JFK. You do not want B6 reaching critical mass like AS did out west.

Best defense is a good offense. Keep b6 "niche" at all costs.

Just my 2$



When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlineredzeppelin From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 587 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 8178 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 17):
Quoting SANFan (Reply 15):This is a curious move by DL, something that hasn't happened before in recent memory:
Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
*DL DTW-SAN MAR 3>1.8 APR 3>1.5
I agree. Probably where the PDX plane came from now that it is running all year.

A very subtle olive branch to AS? "We know that you're building a nice little operation in SAN, so we'll pull a little bit of capacity out in exchange for the mass of capacity that we're adding in SEA... Truce?"



Flown: DL,OS,NZ,UN,VV,NW,AA,UA,HP,TZ,AS,AF,KL,SK,WS,AZ,OK; op by OO,MQ,XJ,9E,G7,EV,QX,RP
User currently offlineknope2001 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2911 posts, RR: 30
Reply 25, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 8395 times:

Quoting knope2001 (Reply 18):
--FNT yields have not been good for years

To clarify, FNT yields have not been good for years because of FL and now WN. Not because of the economic woes of Flint itself.

On the contrary -- the Flint airport serves a large and affluent-enough market to support LCC service which keeps fares as low as they are. Without that market the FNT airport probably looks more like Kalamazoo -- high fares, limited service and lot of leakage of what does exist.


User currently offlinejetbluefan1 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2982 posts, RR: 14
Reply 26, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 8395 times:

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 23):
So…part of your business plan must now entail keeping B6 from growing any more at BOS….even if it means small losses for you….because if you don't it can mean even bigger losses down the road at JFK. You do not want B6 reaching critical mass like AS did out west.

Best defense is a good offense. Keep b6 "niche" at all costs.

If your theory holds any validity, DL is about 5 years too late to the party.

B6 serves over 50 destinations from BOS and is the largest carrier by a meaningful margin. DL cannot do anything to stop B6 from continuing to grow at BOS as they have already reached critical mass.



Most people on a.net hate JetBlue. Get used to it.
User currently offlineyellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6171 posts, RR: 2
Reply 27, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 8441 times:

Quoting jetbluefan1 (Reply 26):
If your theory holds any validity, DL is about 5 years too late to the party.

B6 serves over 50 destinations from BOS and is the largest carrier by a meaningful margin. DL cannot do anything to stop B6 from continuing to grow at BOS as they have already reached critical mass.

Anything is a subjective term….I remember the days when the popular belief was that none of the other carriers could do "anything to stop PA"….look at were we are today.

The airline business is a fickle one…..better late to the party than never…,,and if you can drive your competitors yields down while stealing a few J pax…….you are halfway home.



When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlinedlflynhayn From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 426 posts, RR: 1
Reply 28, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 8354 times:

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
DL LAX-HNL APR 3>4 MAY 3>4 JUN 3>4 JUL 3>4

I hope this sticks cause last summer was just bad,..Went via NRT just to get to HNL for the first time ever that trip hurt but you do what you have to just to get to work  ....


User currently offlineapodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4277 posts, RR: 6
Reply 29, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 8344 times:

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 22):
In my book this was a star. Only 8x even during the summer? It's getting tough to connect through DET from MSP. Frequency and gauge is way down since pre-DL, and the flights are packed. So the good fares are all through - you guessed it - ATL.

What does connections have to do exactly? MSP and DTW are both DL hubs last time I checked, so realistically there are not many places that MSP are going to use DTW to connect to that they can't already reach non stop from MSP. If you are talking about Europe, then there is JFK, plus AMS or CDG from MSP. If you are talking about Asia, you have NRT already from MSP. There is absolutely no reason for a DL pax to have to connect through DTW to too many places, period. This is mainly an attempt at making sure the loads are right sized for O and D heavy traffic, which is what this route should be predicated on.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 23):

If I were DL Management….my thinking would go like this.

1) B6 are mostly boxed in at JFK
2) You do not want B6 to start to grow outside of JFK because if they succeed, by default they get stronger at JFK.
3) B6 seems to have found a foothold at BOS

So…part of your business plan must now entail keeping B6 from growing any more at BOS….even if it means small losses for you….because if you don't it can mean even bigger losses down the road at JFK. You do not want B6 reaching critical mass like AS did out west.

Best defense is a good offense. Keep b6 "niche" at all costs.

I don't buy this at all. First of all, DL's big hub in NYC is at LGA, not JFK, so B6 is only going to be a threat to DL on trans cons and Caribbean flying out of JFK. Most of the DL money that is made at JFK is made overseas. B6 is not going to threaten this anytime soon. Secondly, regardless of what happens in BOS, B6 has made themselves pretty strong at MCO and FLL, which also improves JFK. Third of all, if DL is trying to compete from JFK, they screw themselves at LGA by default because of too many seats in the market from multiple airports.

Quoting enilria (Reply 17):

Quoting apodino (Reply 14):
This is actually a US route.

But B6 is the target.

Quoting apodino (Reply 14):
Then again, DL may have not had much luck on this route and they are moving it to RIC to hit a bigger catchment area.

That's probably also true, but because B6 made RIC cheaper.

B6 may be the target, but by launching this route DL may be helping B6 inadvertently rather than hurting them. By launching this route at 2X daily, now you have three airlines in the BOS-RIC market, which I do not believe can support three airlines. I believe DL may end up getting US off the route instead of B6, which then puts DL in a difficult position. I don't know how yields were to ORF, but I think DL would have been better off letting US and B6 duke it out here, rather than risk their own losses on the route, and focus on ORF where they have a monopoly. Not only that, but it also gives a merged US/AA a chance to redeploy the aircraft to a more profitable route, and I would make the argument that a combined US/AA is going to be a much bigger threat to DL long term than B6. DL seems to be making this personal with B6 for some reason, and I can't figure out why because B6 doesn't serve ATL.


User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7183 posts, RR: 13
Reply 30, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 8183 times:

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 22):
Oooh, this was a good week to discuss changes. As always, thanks for posting the OAG reports.

 
Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 22):
WN must be happy to pick up the additional connecting traffic.

Given their loads...:D

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 22):
This is crazy. MEM loses DL service to two large non-hub markets.

Actually what is crazy is that they add BOS-RIC making themselves the third airline, but leave MEM-BOS which was a monopoly. That's just over-competitiveness run amok.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 23):
1) B6 are mostly boxed in at JFK
2) You do not want B6 to start to grow outside of JFK because if they succeed, by default they get stronger at JFK.
3) B6 seems to have found a foothold at BOS

Agreed

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 23):
So…part of your business plan must now entail keeping B6 from growing any more at BOS….even if it means small losses for you….

I think it's too late

Quoting redzeppelin (Reply 24):
A very subtle olive branch to AS?

Very, very subtle since they don't fly it.

Quoting apodino (Reply 29):
First of all, DL's big hub in NYC is at LGA, not JFK

That's arguable. I'm sure JFK has more ASMs and that is what drives revenue more than who has the most departures.

Quoting apodino (Reply 29):
B6 is not going to threaten this anytime soon.
Quoting apodino (Reply 29):
DL seems to be making this personal with B6 for some reason, and I can't figure out why because B6 doesn't serve ATL.

I think what you miss is that DL is peeved with AS because they want exclusive feed in SEA. By code sharing with everybody DL feels they are allowing their competitors to compete on equal footing with them. That has them mad. Guess what? Same situation in JFK. B6 is doing the same thing. The unwashed in NYC can code share with B6 and gain access to a lot of feed. Difference is that DL has less leverage with B6 than AS.

Quoting apodino (Reply 29):
By launching this route at 2X daily, now you have three airlines in the BOS-RIC market, which I do not believe can support three airlines.

Agreed


User currently offlineapodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4277 posts, RR: 6
Reply 31, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 8094 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 30):
I think what you miss is that DL is peeved with AS because they want exclusive feed in SEA. By code sharing with everybody DL feels they are allowing their competitors to compete on equal footing with them. That has them mad. Guess what? Same situation in JFK. B6 is doing the same thing. The unwashed in NYC can code share with B6 and gain access to a lot of feed. Difference is that DL has less leverage with B6 than AS.

I think AS and B6 are two different apples. For one thing, DL is trying to turn SEA into a west coast Asian Gateway, and that is pretty obvious. Secondly, SEA does not have nearly the amount of international service that JFK does. AS has long been codesharing with both AA and DL in SEA. The only reason its a big deal now is because DL wants an Asian Gateway in SEA, but AS won't give them enough feed for these flights, so DL instead is retaliating against AS by launching service of their own to several cities from SEA.

As for JFK, I don't know how many codesharing agreements B6 has with airlines that serve JFK. DL certainly has the entire SkyTeam alliance they can feed in JFK, plus Virgin Atlantic, in addition to their own service. Interestingly enough though, B6 has codeshares with both VS and KE in JFK, and those are both SkyTeam airlines.


User currently offlineglobalflyer From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 928 posts, RR: 3
Reply 32, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 8018 times:

*V2 GPT-PIE DEC 0.7>0 JAN 0.7>0 FEB 0.7>0 MAR 0.7>0 APR 0.7>0 MAY 0.7>0 JUN 0.7>0 JUL 0.7>0

Is this V2's last scheduled service?



Landing on every Continent almost on an annual basis!
User currently offlineMSPNWA From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1944 posts, RR: 2
Reply 33, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 8026 times:

Quoting apodino (Reply 29):

What does connections have to do exactly?

There's many small to medium-sized markets in the Carolinas, Virginias, and other eastern states that either don't have service or have very limited service from MSP but do have service from DTW. And much of the Upper Midwest is only served by MSP. So a MSP-DTW single connect or double connect isn't uncommon. But now it's getting very difficult to do so. DL wants you to go MSP-ATL instead. ORD doesn't look so bad.


User currently offlineSouthernDC9 From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 437 posts, RR: 0
Reply 34, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 7977 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 30):
Actually what is crazy is that they add BOS-RIC making themselves the third airline, but leave MEM-BOS which was a monopoly. That's just over-competitiveness run amok.

DL had MEM-BOS on the map they put out for their alliance with Virgin Atlantic, which I thought was maybe a good sign that they saw some potential for that... but I think seeing such "good signs" is one of the stages of grief. MEM will end up pretty much like LIT or JAN.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 22):
This is crazy. MEM loses DL service to two large non-hub markets. And service to two hubs get put on life support, including all of New York. Unbelievable. To put into perspective, MEM-LGA will be down to the same frequency as the soon-to-be-cut ROA is today. That's hard to fathom.

US seems to have made quite a bit of headway in MEM, with bigger (some mainline) planes to CLT and the seemingly successful service to DCA... AA currently has DFW, ORD and MIA... I wonder if the "new" AA could build on that and become somewhat dominant in MEM the way they are in LIT and XNA? (I've always loved that AA has such a special relationship with AArkansas.) I think this is the "bargaining" stage of grief, yes?



What does AA/US merger mean for CLT/JFK/PHX/North America/Southern Hemisphere/God's Plan for the Universe
User currently offlinemichman From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 505 posts, RR: 0
Reply 35, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 7859 times:

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 22):
In my book this was a star. Only 8x even during the summer? It's getting tough to connect through DET from MSP. Frequency and gauge is way down since pre-DL, and the flights are packed. So the good fares are all through - you guessed it - ATL.

Looks like they are dropping the 9:40PM DTW-MSP and MSP-DTW flights. Seems like these are pretty important for getting home to DTW or MSP on the last flight banks from a number of destinations. Perhaps this is just a temporary change?

[Edited 2013-11-11 13:05:06]

User currently offlinejetbluefan1 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2982 posts, RR: 14
Reply 36, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 7796 times:

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 27):
The airline business is a fickle one…..better late to the party than never…,,and if you can drive your competitors yields down while stealing a few J pax…….you are halfway home.

BOS doesn't have significant strategic importance to DL. By your logic, DL should be increasing FLL and SJU flying too.

B6 and DL have been competitors for a long time. They have both shown discipline to capacity and have been careful with "retaliation." I don't think these additions from BOS are indicative of a reversal of this trend.

Quoting apodino (Reply 29):
DL seems to be making this personal with B6 for some reason, and I can't figure out why because B6 doesn't serve ATL.

It's being implied that this is a reaction to B6's recent announcement of BOS-DTW with 300 seats each way.

Who knows, I might be wrong. I think that if DL were "retaliating," it would be a lot more obvious.

I also think Atlanta is on the short list for new domestic destinations to be announced from BOS.

jetbluefan1



Most people on a.net hate JetBlue. Get used to it.
User currently offlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6471 posts, RR: 9
Reply 37, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 7763 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 7):
DL got booted from PIT-BOS when they tried that.


Which airline drove DL from PIT-BOS and when?


User currently offlineCompensateMe From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1193 posts, RR: 0
Reply 38, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 7617 times:

Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 16):

I agree with michman in that if you're determined to get rid of the CRJ-200s that route (DTW-FNT) has to go. I wonder if DTW-MBS will go as well or just be altered to fewer frequencies and a CRJ-900. I think we can expect much more of this in the remaining CRJ-200 stations.

The cancellation of FNT-DTW has nothing to do with the dwindling 50-seat fleet or competition from WN (which is actually failing - more on the topic at the end of this post) but rather the dynamics of the market. FNT is merely a second gateway into DTW, particularly its northern suburbs - Flint itself is not a sustainable market. Much of the market will choose whichever airport offers a better fare; even if FNT-DTW flights were heavily profitable for DL, service is undesirable because it takes away potential profits. DL has attempted to remedy this by restricting travel via DTW on its lowest-priced tariffs (in recent weeks, this has been rescinded ... now we know why), but apparently failed. To price-sensitive passengers, DL will continue to offer ATL (which has once again been upgauged to 3xM88 -> it had been scheduled as CR9, 319 & M88 for the winter season).

I've written this before and have gotten flamed by our resident ATL fanboi, but price-sensitive passengers are a big part of DL's business and an integral part of the design of ATL -- and the primary reason for the breadth of mainline jet service, especially to smaller markets. There's a reason why DL's found success in flying mainline equipment into Heartland communities (in which ATL's geographically challenged in handling connections) it failed with 50-seaters during the economic hayday, despite the fact that the local market's flat. ATL-FNT is merely another piece of that strategy.

---

WN's performance has been horrendous at FNT, starting out with LF less than 40%; last month was their best month, but even then LF (on reduced capacity) were in the low 50%. And based on rough analysis on published data, BWI's been in the 20%-30% range. WN has accepted responsibility for this, stating that they failed to market their service in FNT like they should've, and that consumers were confused when their beloved FL flights disappeared. But fares (and quarterly averages) remain low -- LAS-FNT on Dec. 1 (the Sunday post-Thanksgiving, which is the busiest travel day in the USA) was selling for $99 (!!) until recently.

Alas, FNT's management bought into analysis by the Boyd Group in embarking on ambitious expansion, even after the Great Recession. If WN withdraws service, DL is likely to follow suit (might as well follow the money and "force" those passengers to drive to DTW, MBS & LAN). It's very possible, if not probable, that by the end of the decade, FNT - which had forecasted 3M passengers - could merely retain a link (three 50-seat flights) to ORD on AA/UA and seasonal Florida service by a niche carrier such as Allegiant.



Hypocrisy: "US airlines should only buy Boeing... BTW, check out my new Hyundai!"
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7183 posts, RR: 13
Reply 39, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 7611 times:

Quoting apodino (Reply 31):
Secondly, SEA does not have nearly the amount of international service that JFK does.
Quoting apodino (Reply 31):
but AS won't give them enough feed for these flights

The issue isn't AS giving DL enough feed. In both cases having access to connecting traffic is critical to being able to profitably serve JFK or SEA for int'l carriers. If B6 or AS is available for hire to provide that feed then DL has a disadvantage because the other carrier has effectively a hub on both ends of the flight. DL doesn't like that.

Quoting apodino (Reply 31):
Interestingly enough though, B6 has codeshares with both VS and KE in JFK, and those are both SkyTeam airlines.

I'm sure that is already in their craw. Expect VS to end soon.

Quoting globalflyer (Reply 32):
Is this V2's last scheduled service?

Who knows. didn't that just pop up a week ago?

Quoting jetbluefan1 (Reply 36):
Who knows, I might be wrong. I think that if DL were "retaliating," it would be a lot more obvious.

I also think Atlanta is on the short list for new domestic destinations to be announced from BOS.

People say that, but they can't get a billboard and announce it. There are some laws.

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 37):
Which airline drove DL from PIT-BOS and when?

Isn't DL out of the market?


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17499 posts, RR: 45
Reply 40, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 7497 times:

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
Y4 MDW-MEX DEC 0.7>0.3 JAN 0.9>0 FEB 0.9>0 MAR 0.8>0 APR 0.9>0 MAY 0.9>0 JUN 0.8>0 JUL 0.9>0
Y4 OAK-MEX JAN 0.5>0 FEB 0.6>0 MAR 0.6>0 APR 0.5>0 MAY 0.6>0 JUN 0.6>0 JUL 0.5>0
Y4 ORD-MEX DEC 0>0.5 JAN 0>1.0 FEB 0>1.0 MAR 0>1.0 APR 0>1.0 MAY 0>1.0 JUN 0>1.0 JUL 0>1.0

Interesting move from MDW to ORD, a new station.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently onlineFlyPIJets From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 912 posts, RR: 2
Reply 41, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 7401 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 17):
Quoting apodino (Reply 14):
There has been so much focus about what US is doing with slots at DCA, that we forget about DL and the LGA slots that were also a part of the deal.

True. I should have starred the ROA drop. Missed it.

Sad ROA has had LGA service since forever... I understand keeping the status quo is no reason to continue. But ouch for ROA.



DC-8, DC-9, DC-10, F28, 717, 727, 737, 747, 757, 767, IL-62, L-1011, MD-82/83, YS-11, DHC-8, PA-28-161, ERJ 135/145, E-1
User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5431 posts, RR: 12
Reply 42, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 7354 times:

Quoting redzeppelin (Reply 24):
A very subtle olive branch to AS? "We know that you're building a nice little operation in SAN, so we'll pull a little bit of capacity out in exchange for the mass of capacity that we're adding in SEA... Truce?"

Hmmmm, or how about this scenario: "Thanks for cutting your service between SAN and DTW, Delta. We've (totally) coincidentally decided that in March, we'll be starting SAN-DTW ourselves. And btw, we sure appreciate you entering SAN-SEA next summer."

bb


User currently offlineTHEFLLFLYER From United States of America, joined Mar 2013, 187 posts, RR: 0
Reply 43, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 7319 times:

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 38):
LAS-FNT on Dec. 1 (the Sunday post-Thanksgiving, which is the busiest travel day in the USA) was selling for $99 (!!) until recently.

Airlines always have cheap fares to LAS over Thanksgiving....very few VFR pax headed there for the holiday.


User currently offlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6471 posts, RR: 9
Reply 44, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 7224 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 39):
Isn't DL out of the market?


Yes they are out of themarket but no airline drove them out. Airlines are quite frequently not in a market, does that mean some one drove them out? I don't think so.


User currently offlineCompensateMe From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1193 posts, RR: 0
Reply 45, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 7200 times:

As always, I appreciate the thread but find the overanalysis to be entertaining; much of what's occurring is merely routine adjustments.

For example:

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
*DL DTW-SAN MAR 3>1.8 APR 3>1.5

DTW-SAN:

March 13: 7 weekly 320, 6 weekly 757
March 14: 13 weekly 738
Roughly a 3% capacity reduction -- fairly routine and nothing to get excited about.

April 13: 13 weekly 738
April 14: 7 weekly 738, 4 weekly 757
Roughly a 15% capacity reduction - somewhat significant, but in-line with day-of-week reductions. Still plenty of time to change.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
DL DTW-SFO MAR 4>3

previously scheduled as: 3x738, 739
now scheduled as: 2x739, 763
(slight capacity reduction)

March 2013: 738, 757, 763
(slight capacity increase)



Hypocrisy: "US airlines should only buy Boeing... BTW, check out my new Hyundai!"
User currently offlineJetBlueCLT From United States of America, joined Oct 2013, 106 posts, RR: 0
Reply 46, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 7206 times:

The actions Delta is par taking is totally uncalled for. They are really just wasting there capital on doing this. B6 already has a strongfoot hold in BOS. It just keeps getting better Like others said, Delta is a little late to the party on trying to box B6 in. I gotta say, Delta is messing with a totally different JetBlue than the B6 back in 03. B6 is well known they have the loyalty in BOS... I honestly think JetBlue is going to give Delta a good beat down on this.


On the ground spotting JetBlue or sitting on a JetBlue plane at FL350
User currently offlinepit From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 189 posts, RR: 0
Reply 47, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 7054 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 39):
Which airline drove DL from PIT-BOS and when?

Isn't DL out of the market?

B6 and US both drove DL out.

DL ran 3x daily and the flights would be quarter full at best.

The evening flight was timed for connections on the BOS-LHR flight. Not sure what other connections they were hoping for..


User currently offlinebrooklynchris13 From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 48 posts, RR: 0
Reply 48, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 6913 times:

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
F9 CMH-TTN JAN 0.3>0.1

Kind of surprised this didn't get a (*) unless I missed a subsequent post. Does this spell the beginning of the end of F9's experimental return to CMH?



be the change you want to see in the world (mg)
User currently offlineMesaFlyGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 3127 posts, RR: 5
Reply 49, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 6738 times:
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Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
Taken as a group looks like retaliation by DL against B6
*DL DTW-BOS MAR 7>8 APR 7>8 MAY 7>8
*DL BOS-CUN MAY 0>0.2 JUN 0>0.1 JUL 0>0.1
*DL BOS-JAX MAR 0>0.9 APR 0>1.0 MAY 0>1.0 JUN 0>1.0 JUL 0>1.0
*DL BOS-NAS MAR 0>0.1 APR 0>0.1 MAY 0>0.2 JUN 0>0.1 JUL 0>0.1
*DL BOS-ORF MAR 1.8>0 APR 1.9>0 MAY 1.8>0 JUN 2>0 JUL 2>0
*DL BOS-PLS MAR 0>0.1 APR 0>0.1 MAY 0>0.2 JUN 0>0.1 JUL 0>0.1
*DL BOS-RIC MAR 0>1.9 APR 0>2 MAY 0>2 JUN 0>2 JUL 0>2
*DL JFK-PLS MAR 0>0.1 APR 0>0.1 MAY 0>0.2 JUN 0>0.1 JUL 0>0.1

I'm not saying you're wrong, but you also have to bear in mind that DL has been adding a few different Sat-only destinations from BOS lately (MYR, CHS, CUN on and off) and now these. Also, DL has had a decent 50-seater focus-city-like operation at BOS for a while now. This is just moving two flights to a new destination. Also, look at what DL has been doing with NAS recently. They have been adding a bunch of once-weekly seasonal flights to smaller destinations. BOS doesn't seem that out of the ordinary when looked at from that perspective. B6 entering DTW probably had something to do with this, but I'm willing to bet it isn't ALL a reaction to it.
I am glad to JFK getting some new service! 



\________(---)________/ :) World's most beautiful aircraft: 757-200, MD-88/90, E-190, A321
User currently onlineadamh8297 From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 902 posts, RR: 0
Reply 50, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 6539 times:

Quoting MesaFlyGuy (Reply 49):
BOS doesn't seem that out of the ordinary when looked at from that perspective.

'
I believe its mostly retaliatory and history shows this. In this case, they do have the ability in BOS to fight back with an alternative to starting a borderline BOS-DTW shuttle. I would have also taken a stab at BOS-AUA as well though that does require at least an A320/737/757.

Its also a bit bizarre to use the E-175 on the higher traffic BOS-NAS route (especially with no summer competition from B6) while using an A320 on BOS-PLS. Could the E-175 be flown on BOS-PLS? Its easily within range but are there any ETOPS issues, etc.

Just some numbers BOS-NAS is about 685 weekly passengers in each direction and BOS-PLS is about 260 weekly passengers in each direction.

Quoting JetBlueCLT (Reply 46):
The actions Delta is par taking is totally uncalled for.

Its a free market. Though somewhat petty there's nothing illegal with DL's actions.

However, BOS-NAS and BOS-PLS aren't served by B6 during the summer as it stands right now so its good for BOS travellers who can only go to these areas during the summer. I was actually looking for a BOS-NAS nonstop for a May or June vacation. I don't know if DL will fill the A320 to PLS though - especially in August.

Quoting pit (Reply 47):
The evening flight was timed for connections on the BOS-LHR flight. Not sure what other connections they were hoping for..

AMS/FCO/CDG and any connection those Skyteam hubs offer.


User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5582 posts, RR: 28
Reply 51, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 6499 times:

Quoting ANA787 (Reply 21):
Quoting enilria (Thread starter):DL HNL-SFO FEB 0.4>0.3
This route has constantly been cut down. Surprised DL is still holding on to this route. Thought it would've gone with the NRT route.

Perhaps there were enough bookings that pulling it altogether would not have made sense?

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 22):
Quoting enilria (Thread starter):*DL LAX-HNL APR 3>4 MAY 3>4 JUN 3>4 JUL 3>4
Wow, a DL ADDITION to HNL from the mainland!

I'm guessing they plan to route more people over LAX to HNL from the Bay Area, similar to routing more people to NRT over SEA from the Bay Area.

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlineJetBlueCLT From United States of America, joined Oct 2013, 106 posts, RR: 0
Reply 52, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 6324 times:

Quoting adamh8297 (Reply 50):

I understand that. I just think with all these additions to SEA and some new flights to BOS is just a little to much



On the ground spotting JetBlue or sitting on a JetBlue plane at FL350
User currently offlinejfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3476 posts, RR: 5
Reply 53, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 6256 times:

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 23):
So…part of your business plan must now entail keeping B6 from growing any more at BOS….even if it means small losses for you….because if you don't it can mean even bigger losses down the road at JFK. You do not want B6 reaching critical mass like AS did out west.

As others have said. It's a bit late for this. B6 flies more passengers than DL at JFK, and DL vs B6 in BOS is a lost cause. The ship has sailed.

BOS is not NYC. Delta can match B6s frequency route for route. No slots and DL has the gates. But the market isn't there. They would lose a lot of money.

The thing about B6s growth in the NE is that it is all recent (last decade). And it all comes because the legacies didn't want to grow there (JFK) or shrunk there (BOS, BDL). This is a different situation than AS in SEA.


User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7183 posts, RR: 13
Reply 54, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 6226 times:

Quoting SANFan (Reply 42):
Hmmmm, or how about this scenario: "Thanks for cutting your service between SAN and DTW, Delta. We've (totally) coincidentally decided that in March, we'll be starting SAN-DTW ourselves. And btw, we sure appreciate you entering SAN-SEA next summer."

Maybe, but I doubt they'd add it.

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 44):
Yes they are out of themarket but no airline drove them out.

They drove themselves out by their own ineptitude? I'd think somebody else driving them out is more flattering than that. After all they don't have a hub on either end.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 45):
As always, I appreciate the thread but find the overanalysis to be entertaining; much of what's occurring is merely routine adjustments.

For example:

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
*DL DTW-SAN MAR 3>1.8 APR 3>1.5

Don't disagree in that I doubt it is connected to anything other than they stole the plane for other things.

Quoting JetBlueCLT (Reply 46):
They are really just wasting there capital on doing this.

True, but not as much as SEA

Quoting brooklynchris13 (Reply 48):
Kind of surprised this didn't get a (*) unless I missed a subsequent post. Does this spell the beginning of the end of F9's experimental return to CMH?

Or just that January sucks?

Quoting MesaFlyGuy (Reply 49):
B6 entering DTW probably had something to do with this, but I'm willing to bet it isn't ALL a reaction to it.

LAS/RIC/JAX almost certainly are. The rest might have come anyway, but they may have packaged it together to make a bigger point.

Quoting JetBlueCLT (Reply 52):
I understand that. I just think with all these additions to SEA and some new flights to BOS is just a little to much

I agree. It's too much to be doing at once. They are wasting their gold. LAX/SEA/BOS all at once?


User currently offlineMesaFlyGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 3127 posts, RR: 5
Reply 55, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 6176 times:
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Quoting enilria (Reply 54):
The rest might have come anyway, but they may have packaged it together to make a bigger point.

I absolutely agree. They are definitely making a statement with the adds, but only a few are actually retaliatory, while the others were just for effect, instead of being added graudally.



\________(---)________/ :) World's most beautiful aircraft: 757-200, MD-88/90, E-190, A321
User currently onlineadamh8297 From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 902 posts, RR: 0
Reply 56, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 6132 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 54):
LAS/RIC/JAX almost certainly are

When was BOS-LAS loaded? I just checked randomly on ITA and it looks less than daily.


User currently offlineMah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32781 posts, RR: 72
Reply 57, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5339 times:

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
AB JFK-TXL MAY 1.0>1.3 JUN 1.0>1.4 JUL 1.0>1.5
AB MIA-TXL MAY 0.7>1.0 JUN 0.7>1.0 JUL 0.7>1.0
AB ORD-TXL MAY 0.7>1.0 JUN 0.7>1.0 JUL 0.7>1.0

It's impressive to see airberlin grow at Tegel.

What began as a mere two weekly flights to Miami is now daily service to three AA's three main European hubs.



a.
User currently offlineyellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6171 posts, RR: 2
Reply 58, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 4996 times:

Quoting JetBlueCLT (Reply 46):
I honestly think JetBlue is going to give Delta a good beat down on this.

I don't think the object is a beat down or drive them market….the object is to drive down B6 yields …which will happen…..

Do that for long enough, once profitable routes become unprofitable….and as a smaller airline, B6s willingness to stick it out in unprofitable routes will be tested.

This is a tactic that TA's Frederico Bloc used very well in C. America. He kept the other carriers weak….his motto was "only thing better than no competition, is weak competition". The one carrier that was able to out think him (by getting COs help) was CM…and look where they are today.



When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7183 posts, RR: 13
Reply 59, posted (10 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4840 times:

Quoting MesaFlyGuy (Reply 55):
I absolutely agree. They are definitely making a statement with the adds, but only a few are actually retaliatory, while the others were just for effect, instead of being added graudally.

Maybe, but still LAS/RIC/JAX are a lot.

Quoting adamh8297 (Reply 56):
Quoting enilria (Reply 54):
LAS/RIC/JAX almost certainly are

When was BOS-LAS loaded? I just checked randomly on ITA and it looks less than daily.

Sorry, BOS-LAS was not in my schedule compare because they loaded it later, but it should be there now.

DL BOS-LAS Eff Mar 6 738 3/week.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 58):
I don't think the object is a beat down or drive them market….the object is to drive down B6 yields …which will happen…..

Correct and the anti-competitive part is that they use RJs to spoil the market for other carriers knowing that the RJ has even higher costs and will lose even more money. That's what is crazy.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 58):
Do that for long enough, once profitable routes become unprofitable….and as a smaller airline, B6s willingness to stick it out in unprofitable routes will be tested.

B6 will never give up on BOS. It's a fairly dumb move by DL and won't last.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7560 posts, RR: 18
Reply 60, posted (10 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4622 times:

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
**DL MEM-DCA JAN 1.5>0.2 FEB 1.6>0 MAR 1.5>0 APR 1.6>0 MAY 1.5>0 JUN 1.6>0 JUL 1.6>0

Tardy to the party but werent these already sold?

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
*UA CLE-PHX JUN 1.0>0.1 JUL 1.0>0
Quoting point2point (Reply 1):
...... a big city like Cleveland can't work with a daily to Phoenix, since UA is the only carrier here? Maybe fares have something to do with this?

CLE is roughly the same size as CVG.

I'm getting the impression that Ohio airports unfortunately aren't doing well with the PHX Market.... maybe that's the cue for US to jump right in.

Quoting codc10 (Reply 4):
Doubt UA is leaving the market, more likely a temporary pulldown during the slow season in PHX.

Possibly. But that means there was very little sustainable biz traffic to cover that summertime slump.



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7183 posts, RR: 13
Reply 61, posted (10 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4577 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 60):
Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
**DL MEM-DCA JAN 1.5>0.2 FEB 1.6>0 MAR 1.5>0 APR 1.6>0 MAY 1.5>0 JUN 1.6>0 JUL 1.6>0

Tardy to the party but werent these already sold?

Nope. They kept enough slots in the US transaction to fly the route.


User currently offlineMSPNWA From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1944 posts, RR: 2
Reply 62, posted (10 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4568 times:

Quoting michman (Reply 35):
Looks like they are dropping the 9:40PM DTW-MSP and MSP-DTW flights. Seems like these are pretty important for getting home to DTW or MSP on the last flight banks from a number of destinations. Perhaps this is just a temporary change?

I just looked it up too, and you're right, they are dropping those flights. I'm very surprised they're cutting those. I know the late flights were popular for crew, non-revs, and served as a buffer for getting everyone out of dodge when there was misconnects or other problems. Now the last flights leaving are about 7:30, and that doesn't fully cover the last big flight bank for each hub, let alone the very late arrivals. That's a pathetic schedule now, to be honest. You still need a late flight. Even if it's not making money it's crucial operationally. Maybe that schedule will change.


User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5431 posts, RR: 12
Reply 63, posted (10 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4556 times:

Quoting JetBlueCLT (Reply 52):
I just think with all these additions to SEA and some new flights to BOS is just a little to much.

It just occurred to me that DL could take a swipe at both B6 and AS with a single additional route out of BOS -- SAN. B6 is in a bit of a tousle with AS over SAN-BOS -- a Blue monopoly route which AS just entered this past March -- so if DL were to jump in there next year with even a sub-daily offering (like they're doing with LAS-BOS), it might prove interesting. Besides, I'm sure that all the DL fans in SAN (and there are a lot of them) would be happy with another offering from Lindbergh Field...

Just a thought.

bb


User currently onlineadamh8297 From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 902 posts, RR: 0
Reply 64, posted (10 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4418 times:

Quoting SANFan (Reply 63):
It just occurred to me that DL could take a swipe at both B6 and AS with a single additional route out of BOS -- SAN. B6 is in a bit of a tousle with AS over SAN-BOS

In this case, the enemy (AS) of your enemy (B6) may be your friend.

However, does DL ever codeshare on the AS operated flight?

Quoting enilria (Reply 59):
Sorry, BOS-LAS was not in my schedule compare because they loaded it later, but it should be there now.

No worries - also can you recall off hand when seasonal Saturday only BOS-CHS was added? Saw that on BOS wikipedia page and I verified on ITA.


User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5431 posts, RR: 12
Reply 65, posted (10 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4314 times:

Quoting adamh8297 (Reply 64):
However, does DL ever codeshare on the AS operated flight?

Oh sure they do, just like DL codeshares with AS between SAN and SEA.

I wasn't all the serious with my proposal anyway. Just thinking out loud...  

bb


User currently offlineawacsooner From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 1913 posts, RR: 1
Reply 66, posted (10 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4213 times:

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
DL SLC-OKC FEB 1.5>1.0

YGTBSM... down to one daily, and that's about your only westbound connecting option? Come on!


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 67, posted (10 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 4096 times:

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 33):
But now it's getting very difficult to do so. DL wants you to go MSP-ATL instead.

MSP-ATL isn't a very cheap route (not ticket's, operationally). At close to 2hrs flight time and just over 900 miles, it takes up a lot of a/c time amd the time change doesn't help either in the MSP-ATL direction. It's not the most optimal way to force pax to connect. I just don't buy it.

Quoting michman (Reply 35):
Looks like they are dropping the 9:40PM DTW-MSP and MSP-DTW flights. Seems like these are pretty important for getting home to DTW or MSP on the last flight banks from a number of destinations. Perhaps this is just a temporary change?

I don't see it as being temporary.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 62):
I just looked it up too, and you're right, they are dropping those flights. I'm very surprised they're cutting those. I know the late flights were popular for crew, non-revs, and served as a buffer for getting everyone out of dodge when there was misconnects or other problems. Now the last flights leaving are about 7:30, and that doesn't fully cover the last big flight bank for each hub, let alone the very late arrivals. That's a pathetic schedule now, to be honest. You still need a late flight. Even if it's not making money it's crucial operationally. Maybe that schedule will change.

At the end of the day, Delta is not the Red Cross. The last flight on MSPDTW are very poor performers in both directions. Both served O/D passengers as they got into both stations pretty late, especially MSP-DTW. Towards the logic of having a flight for operational reasons; I'm not sure I understand what you mean. On an IROP night, it doesn't really matter if the flight is at 7 or 9, there will still be tons of misconnects due to everything being late. Furthermore, DL is chaning their bank structure in most of the hubs next year as well. In ATL, we usually have a 2250 push. Over the past couple years this has been pulled back on certain days in the middle of the week and definately on Saturday, save for a hand full of markets. Next year, you'll see more of this and even on an ad-hoc basis.

A/C routing also plays a part. Both a/c operate a first flight the next day so the RON is pretty important at this point but I think it's coming down to better utilization of assets. There's really no operational or financial need for either flight. No ones flying it.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineMesaFlyGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 3127 posts, RR: 5
Reply 68, posted (10 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 4029 times:
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Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 22):
Quoting enilria (Thread starter):DL DTW-MSP JAN 9>8 MAR 9>8 APR 9>8 MAY 9>8 JUN 9>8 JUL 9>8
In my book this was a star. Only 8x even during the summer? It's getting tough to connect through DET from MSP. Frequency and gauge is way down since pre-DL, and the flights are packed. So the good fares are all through - you guessed it - ATL.

It's the same reason JFK-ATL is only 6x daily, with mainly a319s and a320s going south, with MD-88s and 737s going north. Also the reason AA flies DFW/ORD-JFK once daily each. The connections aren't necessary when each city has nonstops to many destinations.



\________(---)________/ :) World's most beautiful aircraft: 757-200, MD-88/90, E-190, A321
User currently offlineCompensateMe From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1193 posts, RR: 0
Reply 69, posted (10 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 4014 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 67):
MSP-ATL isn't a very cheap route (not ticket's, operationally). At close to 2hrs flight time and just over 900 miles, it takes up a lot of a/c time amd the time change doesn't help either in the MSP-ATL direction. It's not the most optimal way to force pax to connect. I just don't buy it.

I think you misunderstood his post; although he was ranting, he is correct. Since the merger, DL has dumped oodles of capacity into ATL whereas every other trunk hub has seen capacity reductions. By doing so, DL has been able to upgauge equipment, including mainline service to many small communities. This gives DL a significant cost advantage; DL clearly wants price-sensitive passengers to travel through ATL. For example, consider the Heartland region, which was formerly NW's biggest strength. Prior to the merger, most of these markets had limited service into ATL -- in fact, in many DL was unable to support (cancelled) CRJ service during the economic / RJ hayday. That's primarily because ATL is geographically challenged in handling connections to/from these markets. But today, many of these same markets now have mainline jet service!

What changed? Local traffic to ATL and the Southeast didn't improve nor did ATL suddenly move closer to the Heartland region. Instead, DL has chipped away at capacity to DTW & MSP and moved it to ATL; when these people search for fares, they find significantly cheaper options through ATL (large amounts of capacity on large jets will always lead to more LUTXV fares). And in an era of declining/stangenet real compensation matched against modern record-high airfares, most people are willing to endure 50% or more traveling to save a few bucks.

The reality is that unlike years past, price-sensitive passengers are very profitable (yes, generalization) and DL prefers to route these folks through ATL. Unfortunately, it has negative implications on DTW & MSP. That will correct itself one day, as DL continues to take delivery of larger jets & passenger counts grow, as ATL has finite capacity and DL is opposed to further expansion - much cheaper to move flow traffic to DTW & MSP (both with ample capacity) than to pay for billions in further expansion.



Hypocrisy: "US airlines should only buy Boeing... BTW, check out my new Hyundai!"
User currently offlineCompensateMe From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1193 posts, RR: 0
Reply 70, posted (10 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3977 times:

Quoting MesaFlyGuy (Reply 68):
It's the same reason JFK-ATL is only 6x daily, with mainly a319s and a320s going south, with MD-88s and 737s going north. Also the reason AA flies DFW/ORD-JFK once daily each. The connections aren't necessary when each city has nonstops to many destinations.

Apples to oranges comparison.

DTW & MSP (as well as DFW & ORD) both serve many small and medium sized communities with limited options. JFK does not. A person trying to get home after vacationing in Northern Michigan (and using PLN or TVC) to their Midwestern home will rely on DTW-MSP shuttle service for greater scheduling options. This was significantly more important before the merger, but less so today with increased frequency at DTW & MSP, as well as options via ATL & SLC.

NW use to fly 757-200 and 757-300, and sometimes back-to-back flights, on the late MSP-DTW. Most of these passengers were DTW passengers connecting from afternoon Western departures. DL has actually re-timed & restored many of the afternoon Western departures to DTW that disappeared after 9-11, making this service somewhat unnecessary, although in many cases it forces local DTW passengers to depart between 1PM-2PM, as opposed to the 4PM-5PM departures the late MSP connection allowed.



Hypocrisy: "US airlines should only buy Boeing... BTW, check out my new Hyundai!"
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 71, posted (10 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3967 times:

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 69):
I think you misunderstood his post; although he was ranting, he is correct. Since the merger, DL has dumped oodles of capacity into ATL whereas every other trunk hub has seen capacity reductions.

I don't have the numbers in front of me but DTW aside, MSP has been relatively flat which is a good thing. In regards to Atlanta, we're not even close to what we had in the 2006-2007 season. What you're absolutely right about is number of seats. RJ departures continue to decline. Look at concourse C. They've REDUCED the gate count to be able to accomodate mainline a/c. All that stuff's being pushed to D which is a little less than half the size.

I totally understand but I just don't agree. Looks great on paper but what i'm seeing on the yield management side says otherwise.

Another driving force for the RJ-mainline flights is WN. DL simply will not fly a large RJ alongside a WN 737 (for the most part).

What I can say is MSP has reached relative equilibriam. Expect more changes for DTW over the next few years.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4599 posts, RR: 22
Reply 72, posted (10 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3946 times:

Quoting awacsooner (Reply 66):
YGTBSM... down to one daily, and that's about your only westbound connecting option? Come on!

Far cry from the days of mainline service or 3+ daily flights on SkyWest.


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 73, posted (10 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3954 times:

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 70):
Apples to oranges comparison.

DTW & MSP (as well as DFW & ORD) both serve many small and medium sized communities with limited options. JFK does not. A person trying to get home after vacationing in Northern Michigan (and using PLN or TVC) to their Midwestern home will rely on DTW-MSP shuttle service for greater scheduling options. This was significantly more important before the merger, but less so today with increased frequency at DTW & MSP, as well as options via ATL & SLC.

Which is why I myself didn't pull the ATL-JFK card. Two very different markets. All those flights are geard towards O/D and very specific banks on the JFK side. Nothing more. MSPDTW is a little different.

None-the-less; I think saying 8x daily is "pathetic" is a bit dramatic. And to your point, that last flight has grown less and less important. The MSPDTW flight regularly has over 100 open seats DAILY.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineCompensateMe From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1193 posts, RR: 0
Reply 74, posted (10 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3897 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 71):
I don't have the numbers in front of me but DTW aside, MSP has been relatively flat which is a good thing. In regards to Atlanta, we're not even close to what we had in the 2006-2007 season. What you're absolutely right about is number of seats. RJ departures continue to decline. Look at concourse C. They've REDUCED the gate count to be able to accomodate mainline a/c. All that stuff's being pushed to D which is a little less than half the size.

I totally understand but I just don't agree. Looks great on paper but what i'm seeing on the yield management side says otherwise.

Another driving force for the RJ-mainline flights is WN. DL simply will not fly a large RJ alongside a WN 737 (for the most part).

What I can say is MSP has reached relative equilibriam. Expect more changes for DTW over the next few years.

2006-2007 isn't relevant, since independent of the merger, there's no way ATL would be handling the capacity it is today. E.g. if DL was unsuccessful in operating 50-seat jets into the Heartland during that era, then there's absolutely no way they'd be able to utilize the mainline equipment they're deploying today. And DTW & MSP are both down slightly (but yes, close to being stagnant), but the composition of both hubs has changed. For example, DTW has seen huge increases in capacity to Florida (naturally, as it's a strong DL market, and NK/FL dumped most of their P2P flights) as well as out West -- capacity to Los Angeles has more than doubled throughout much of the year.

On another website, I spent quite a bit of time comparing DL & NW's historical service levels into the Heartland (and it's not the only region trending this way) and where these passengers are flying to. It's pretty clear that it's not ATL, it's not the SE, despite huge gains in service to ATL (with reductions at DTW & MSP). It costs DL $$$ to fly these passengers an additional 50% (or more) miles, so there's got to be an incentive for the airline -- which is the reduced costs flying larger equipment brings to the airline overall on beyond flights and those flights from beyond flights.

ATL has grown much faster than the local traffic / region, despite the fact that it's geographically challenged vs. DTW & MSP on many of the beyond routes it's growing to serve. I've worked in this industry too long for you to convince me that shifting some of this capacity (back to) DTW & MSP would hamper the airline, given the lower costs the much shorter distance should bring -- unless there's an incentive, which again, is leveraging the size of the hub to create an even larger cost advantage



Hypocrisy: "US airlines should only buy Boeing... BTW, check out my new Hyundai!"
User currently offlineCompensateMe From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1193 posts, RR: 0
Reply 75, posted (10 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3880 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 73):
None-the-less; I think saying 8x daily is "pathetic" is a bit dramatic. And to your point, that last flight has grown less and less important. The MSPDTW flight regularly has over 100 open seats DAILY.

Like I said, I agree with the merits of his argument but not necessarily the rant. I'm not surprised the late MSP-DTW flight has been faltering, given the reduction in employee travel as well as other options that we've been discussing. The restoration of the Western afternoon flight bank to DTW alone is going to eat most of those seats.



Hypocrisy: "US airlines should only buy Boeing... BTW, check out my new Hyundai!"
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 76, posted (10 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3881 times:

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 74):
I've worked in this industry too long for you to convince me that shifting some of this capacity (back to) DTW & MSP would hamper the airline, given the lower costs the much shorter distance should bring -- unless there's an incentive, which again, is leveraging the size of the hub to create an even larger cost advantage

I don't see where i've said that. I'm not trying to convince anyone i'm just giving my point of view. At the end of the day, I don't work in that deparment so I can't say. And again, there's usually a lot more to the story than simple numbers as far as "if the flight's making money". And to the contrary, what i'm saying is I fully expect to see capacity in some shape or form shift back to DTW once the CRJ flying pulls down further over the next 2 years.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineCompensateMe From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1193 posts, RR: 0
Reply 77, posted (10 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3873 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 76):
I don't see where i've said that. I'm not trying to convince anyone i'm just giving my point of view. At the end of the day, I don't work in that deparment so I can't say. And again, there's usually a lot more to the story than simple numbers as far as "if the flight's making money". And to the contrary, what i'm saying is I fully expect to see capacity in some shape or form shift back to DTW once the CRJ flying pulls down further over the next 2 years.

More of a figure of speech. I, too, am giving an alternate point of view / explanation for DL's business decisions. And given the finite capacity at ATL (coupled with fleet decisions), I agree it's inevitable flow traffic will begin to leak toward other hubs -- since DL's opposed to paying billions toward terminal expansion, knowing that the heart of the hub is still based on flow traffic that could be more cheaply moved elsewhere. Glad you somewhat agree -- the last time I wrote such assertion, a resident ATL DL widebody fanboi flamed me.

Then again, given that Georgia taxpayers are fine in paying for a new baseball stadium -- at 17, the existing one is too old!! - maybe DL could hit them up for a new terminal. Hmm...



Hypocrisy: "US airlines should only buy Boeing... BTW, check out my new Hyundai!"
User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3256 posts, RR: 5
Reply 78, posted (10 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3641 times:

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 22):
Wow, a DL ADDITION to HNL from the mainland
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 51):
I'm guessing they plan to route more people over LAX to HNL from the Bay Area, similar to routing more people to NRT over SEA from the Bay Area.

Yep, looks as if DL wants to give up competing at SFO with UA in certain markets. SEA used to be UA turf, now it isn't, I guess DL needs to focus it's efforts at SEA & LAX. Things change, that is lifes one certainty.



AA AC AQ AS BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OO OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN
User currently offlineMSPNWA From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1944 posts, RR: 2
Reply 79, posted (10 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3593 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 67):
MSP-ATL isn't a very cheap route (not ticket's, operationally). At close to 2hrs flight time and just over 900 miles, it takes up a lot of a/c time amd the time change doesn't help either in the MSP-ATL direction. It's not the most optimal way to force pax to connect. I just don't buy it.

Well maybe you better tell that to the DL revenue management team. I look for travel often between MSP/Upper Midwest airports to the northern South Atlantic states that MSP doesn't serve, and the shift towards ATL connections and away from DTW is unmistakable. DL keeps pumping capacity (and frequency) into ATL, allowing for larger airplanes, and I assume it must override the inefficiency of a longer route.

For example of how these changes affect a customer, I just did a quick flight search for MSP-GSO, a route I've flown before and one I'm in the market for this winter. It's for mid-January and the latest DTW-MSP flight is 7:35. Getting to GSO is not a problem. About an equal number of connecting options between ATL and DTW are available, and the times are good. However the return trip is less than equal. DTW-GSO is only 3x daily, so that limits the options. Say I don't want to leave earlier than mid-afternoon. Well, the third and final GSO-DTW flight leaves at 5:00. I like that timing. However, it arrives in DTW in time for just a 40 minute connection to that 7:35 DTW-MSP flight. So I have one option through DTW, and it involves a short connection involving the last flight of the day for both legs. That's just asking for trouble. However through ATL I have four GSO-ATL-MSP options starting at 5:00. I can take the first 5:00 option, get a comfortable connection time in ATL, and have a later flight for both legs available later in case of an unexpected delay. No brainer, I'd rather fly through ATL. It's an example of how companies can shift demand to some extent. DL has been shifting demand to ATL.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 67):
At the end of the day, Delta is not the Red Cross. The last flight on MSPDTW are very poor performers in both directions. Both served O/D passengers as they got into both stations pretty late, especially MSP-DTW. Towards the logic of having a flight for operational reasons; I'm not sure I understand what you mean. On an IROP night, it doesn't really matter if the flight is at 7 or 9, there will still be tons of misconnects due to everything being late. Furthermore, DL is chaning their bank structure in most of the hubs next year as well. In ATL, we usually have a 2250 push. Over the past couple years this has been pulled back on certain days in the middle of the week and definately on Saturday, save for a hand full of markets. Next year, you'll see more of this and even on an ad-hoc basis.

Look, for its own people, the airline sometimes does have to be a life saver. It's not all about making money on every flight. It's doing your best at the end of the day to get the passengers, paying ones or not, where they need to be. Whether the flight is at 7 or 9 isn't the point. The point is that it's now 7 OR 9, not 7 AND 9. And it wasn't that long ago that it was more than those two! On a good day you hopefully will end the day with empty seats. But many days you end up short, and that's costly. I never would imagine that the late flights were money makers, but it is important for your route network and minimizing the losses. I just find it crazy that SLC-MSP will now have a later departure than DTW-MSP. That's with a time change disadvantage and being a much smaller market pair.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 77):
And given the finite capacity at ATL (coupled with fleet decisions), I agree it's inevitable flow traffic will begin to leak toward other hubs

You know I just don't know if we'll ever see that shift back. There's no sign of it yet, and ATL still has some room. The 50-seat draw-down will only make it more difficult for DTW and MSP for flowing traffic. ATL has the capacity to easily shift their 50-seat markets to larger aircraft without a crippling loss of frequency. DTW and MSP largely don't have that luxury.


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 80, posted (10 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3475 times:

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 77):
Glad you somewhat agree -- the last time I wrote such assertion, a resident ATL DL widebody fanboi flamed me.

In principle, yes. I am not one to believe that EVERYTHING has to be flown through ATL. There are markets that IMO, are better served through DTW. Or at least sharing the wealth for that matter. Look at some that's been axed ex-ATL but still survived through DTW. The sad part is most of it is on CR2s whereas through ATL it may have been on a -700 or mainline! for that matter. Then again, ATL's location doesn't help either due to the 750 mile RJ rule. This also plays into MSP's favor.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 77):
Then again, given that Georgia taxpayers are fine in paying for a new baseball stadium -- at 17, the existing one is too old!! - maybe DL could hit them up for a new terminal. Hmm...

That one surprised me. I remember when that thing was built! I can't beleive they're building a new stadium. Let's win some World Series first...



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineCompensateMe From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1193 posts, RR: 0
Reply 81, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3326 times:

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 79):
You know I just don't know if we'll ever see that shift back. There's no sign of it yet, and ATL still has some room. The 50-seat draw-down will only make it more difficult for DTW and MSP for flowing traffic. ATL has the capacity to easily shift their 50-seat markets to larger aircraft without a crippling loss of frequency. DTW and MSP largely don't have that luxury.

Flow shifts are inevitable unless DL suddenly supports expansion of ATL. Given the cost (vs. "free" capacity elsewhere) coupled with the fact that transporting passengers BWI-ATL-SEA / DSM-ATL-BOS / etc. is costly and undesirable, I believe it's likely a small fraction of flow traffic will be diverted from ATL, as it seeks to redesign/position its other hubs.

We're seeing some examples already: an LHR flight will be moved from ATL to DTW and daily, year-round DTW-CUN service will resume next year - with an equivalent reduction at ATL. FWIW, DL has historically carried a similar number of local traffic between DTW & ATL to LHR ... it's somewhat flabbergasting that ATL has built 4x the service, despite the breadth of the hub, as ATL is geographically challenged in handling connections vs. DTW. Without a doubt, LHR/Florida is like crack to DL!!

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 80):
In principle, yes. I am not one to believe that EVERYTHING has to be flown through ATL. There are markets that IMO, are better served through DTW. Or at least sharing the wealth for that matter. Look at some that's been axed ex-ATL but still survived through DTW. The sad part is most of it is on CR2s whereas through ATL it may have been on a -700 or mainline! for that matter. Then again, ATL's location doesn't help either due to the 750 mile RJ rule. This also plays into MSP's favor.

There's literally only a few domestic markets that were cut from ATL but kept from DTW - nor are any worthy of anything more than a 50-seater. For example, SWF -- at the time of the route's cancellation, DL conceded the market was tanking from both DTW & ATL, and kept DTW (only because it's half the distance) only because it wanted to slash flights to boost loads.

[Edited 2013-11-13 08:26:55]


Hypocrisy: "US airlines should only buy Boeing... BTW, check out my new Hyundai!"
User currently offlinetlecam From United States of America, joined Jul 2013, 271 posts, RR: 0
Reply 82, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3191 times:

Here is a quote from Delta's press release on the Boston expansion

"We continue to see a growing demand in Boston and increased flights next year will give our customers more direct service at more convenient times," said Bob Cortelyou, senior vice president –Network Planning. "Boston is a key domestic city in our network, and we are committed to providing service that continues to keep us the preferred airline of our customers."

http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=43&item=2174

Looks like they're talking about adding additional flights in 2014.

I'm a bit surprised.

Maybe they'll add LAX (again) for year round flying? SEA is a possibility although I'm not sure why anyone would fly through there instead of Detroit for Asia connections.

I have heard anecdotally that they are using BOS more for int'l connections to AMS and LHR, so maybe some of this is feeder traffic?

It will be interesting to see the new AA plus the B6 codeshare and DL compete.



BOS || A:319,320,321, 332, 333, 346 || B:735, 737, 738, 739, 752, 753, 762, 763, 764, 772, 744: L1011, DC10
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 83, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3124 times:

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 81):
Without a doubt, LHR/Florida is like crack to DL!!

DL still holds Florida close to their heart. Look at the hourly service to MCO and near hourly to FLL. And quite a bit to the others such as PBI, JAX, TPA, etc. etc.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently onlineadamh8297 From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 902 posts, RR: 0
Reply 84, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3110 times:

Quoting tlecam (Reply 82):
I have heard anecdotally that they are using BOS more for int'l connections to AMS and LHR, so maybe some of this is feeder traffic?

I don't think the JAX flight is timed for it on the way home due to early morning departure from BOS.


User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7183 posts, RR: 13
Reply 85, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3075 times:

Quoting tlecam (Reply 82):
Maybe they'll add LAX (again) for year round flying? SEA is a possibility although I'm not sure why anyone would fly through there instead of Detroit for Asia connections.

I have heard anecdotally that they are using BOS more for int'l connections to AMS and LHR, so maybe some of this is feeder traffic?

It will be interesting to see the new AA plus the B6 codeshare and DL compete.

I expect SEA will forge East in terms of spokes. I think this BOS stuff will be short-lived, but they will probably try different things.


User currently offlineHVNandrew From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 435 posts, RR: 0
Reply 86, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3028 times:

Quoting tlecam (Reply 82):
Looks like they're talking about adding additional flights in 2014.

I'm a bit surprised.

Maybe they'll add LAX (again) for year round flying? SEA is a possibility although I'm not sure why anyone would fly through there instead of Detroit for Asia connections.

I have heard anecdotally that they are using BOS more for int'l connections to AMS and LHR, so maybe some of this is feeder traffic?

I'm not. DL is still a major player in the BOS domestic market, maybe not as much as in the mid-2000s, but still a sizable operation. Also a lot of these are resumptions of service - JAX, CHS, LAX, and LAS were all flown until around 2007. The new LAS and LAX schedules are near carbon-copies of what they flew at that time. With the merger, DL has become an international player at BOS as well. It makes sense that they'd like to expand in a healthy market where they already have a pretty strong foothold.

Further, the LAX service really shouldn't surprise anyone. DL's growth there has been huge over the last couple of years. BOS is a pretty critical city for them to serve out of LAX if they want to keep pushing for a leadership position there.


User currently offlinermoore7734 From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 111 posts, RR: 0
Reply 87, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2998 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 71):
Look at concourse C. They've REDUCED the gate count to be able to accommodate mainline a/c. All that stuff's being pushed to D which is a little less than half the size.

What are the chances of WN giving up it's gates on D & consolidate on C ?
If they (WN) are not going to allow more than 20 a/c at a time then that would free D up for DL & others


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 88, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2950 times:

Quoting rmoore7734 (Reply 87):

What are the chances of WN giving up it's gates on D & consolidate on C ?

WN does not have any gates on D. They use CUTE gates. The only carriers with leases on D are Delta, US Airways, and UA.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlinermoore7734 From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 111 posts, RR: 0
Reply 89, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2818 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 88):

Thanks for the education. I thought for years AirTran had leases on D.
Glad to get that straightened out.


User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7591 posts, RR: 27
Reply 90, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 2651 times:

Quoting michman (Reply 35):
Looks like they are dropping the 9:40PM DTW-MSP and MSP-DTW flights. Seems like these are pretty important for getting home to DTW or MSP on the last flight banks from a number of destinations. Perhaps this is just a temporary change?
Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 62):
I just looked it up too, and you're right, they are dropping those flights. I'm very surprised they're cutting those. I know the late flights were popular for crew, non-revs, and served as a buffer for getting everyone out of dodge when there was misconnects or other problems. Now the last flights leaving are about 7:30, and that doesn't fully cover the last big flight bank for each hub, let alone the very late arrivals. That's a pathetic schedule now, to be honest. You still need a late flight. Even if it's not making money it's crucial operationally. Maybe that schedule will change
Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 67):
At the end of the day, Delta is not the Red Cross. The last flight on MSPDTW are very poor performers in both directions. Both served O/D passengers as they got into both stations pretty late, especially MSP-DTW. Towards the logic of having a flight for operational reasons; I'm not sure I understand what you mean. On an IROP night, it doesn't really matter if the flight is at 7 or 9, there will still be tons of misconnects due to everything being late. Furthermore, DL is chaning their bank structure in most of the hubs next year as well. In ATL, we usually have a 2250 push. Over the past couple years this has been pulled back on certain days in the middle of the week and definately on Saturday, save for a hand full of markets. Next year, you'll see more of this and even on an ad-hoc basis.

s
This sucks as I've routinely been on that 9:45pm MSP-DTW flight for a variety of reasons.
It as traditionally been the connecting flight from the latest departing west coast flights to get back to DTW in the evenings. Plus in winter IROPS I always got thrown on to that flight in a misconnect situation. I sense I will more likely be spending the night in MSP now when I book those evening connections.

Granted, never was this flight full. A lot of flight crews on this flight too. We'll see. I always thought this was one of those flights that was necessary for "operational integrity".


User currently offlineknope2001 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2911 posts, RR: 30
Reply 91, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2519 times:

Quoting DTW.SCE" class="quote" target="_blank">PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 90):
Granted, never was this flight full. A lot of flight crews on this flight too. We'll see. I always thought this was one of those flights that was necessary for "operational integrity".

It does make you wonder if they can accurately capture how much this late flight saves them in costs, and if that is factored into the analysis. People delayed by ATC/weather issues who misconnect and must spend the night in DTW or MSP cost Delta little other than some goodwill. But when people misconnect for controllable issues such as mx or crew it costs Delta a lot more if they must put people up. Bump compensation costs more. And must-ride crews who have to get on the 7:30 flight may well take up space that would otherwise have been sold.


User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7591 posts, RR: 27
Reply 92, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2465 times:

That 9:45pm flight was always likely to get an equipment change too, depending on whatever they needed to move between hubs. Its been scheduled with anything between a CR9 and a 753 and I've been on 757s subed for A319s, etc.

User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 93, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2465 times:

Quoting knope2001 (Reply 91):
It does make you wonder if they can accurately capture how much this late flight saves them in costs, and if that is factored into the analysis. People delayed by ATC/weather issues who misconnect and must spend the night in DTW or MSP cost Delta little other than some goodwill. But when people misconnect for controllable issues such as mx or crew it costs Delta a lot more if they must put people up. Bump compensation costs more. And must-ride crews who have to get on the 7:30 flight may well take up space that would otherwise have been sold.



I can comment on this. DL's been hard pressed over the past year to cancel on controllable delays. So far this year we've had 57; yes 57 100% mainline completion factor days. We're regularly running at 99.7% or above (actually anything below 99.7% is unsatisfactory for us). To put things into perspective. We had 11 100% completion factor days in 2012 and a whopping 5 in 2011. This is on top of the fact that we had a record number of IROP events this summer vs. being a relatively quiet year in 2012. I must say that times have changed and they're much more open to rescue flights than they were in the past. The point is unlike years past, its much more likely for us to rescue a DL delayed flight today vs last year.


Again, when looking at it from a broad perspective. They're not going to tie up an a/c for one flight that's percieved as being needed for operational integrity. Like I said, the a/c was always used for a first flight in both hubs the next day but they must have gotten around this and I see this as the absolute only reason why they flew it for so long with such terrible loads.

[Edited 2013-11-14 05:59:24]


What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineCompensateMe From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1193 posts, RR: 0
Reply 94, posted (10 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 2385 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 83):
DL still holds Florida close to their heart. Look at the hourly service to MCO and near hourly to FLL. And quite a bit to the others such as PBI, JAX, TPA, etc. etc.

Absolutely but you missed my point  .

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 93):
I can comment on this. DL's been hard pressed over the past year to cancel on controllable delays. So far this year we've had 57; yes 57 100% mainline completion factor days. We're regularly running at 99.7% or above (actually anything below 99.7% is unsatisfactory for us). To put things into perspective. We had 11 100% completion factor days in 2012 and a whopping 5 in 2011. This is on top of the fact that we had a record number of IROP events this summer vs. being a relatively quiet year in 2012. I must say that times have changed and they're much more open to rescue flights than they were in the past. The point is unlike years past, its much more likely for us to rescue a DL delayed flight today vs last year.

I agree DL's completion rate is stellar, but a minor piece in context to what's being argued. Delays off all kinds, even 20 minutes, can force misconnections.



Hypocrisy: "US airlines should only buy Boeing... BTW, check out my new Hyundai!"
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 95, posted (10 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 2204 times:

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 94):
I agree DL's completion rate is stellar, but a minor piece in context to what's being argued. Delays off all kinds, even 20 minutes, can force misconnections.

And that is understandable. But I guess my point was that we're moving away from operating loss leading flights for the sake of a maybe.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlinemichman From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 505 posts, RR: 0
Reply 96, posted (10 months 22 hours ago) and read 1502 times:

Quoting michman (Reply 35):
Looks like they are dropping the 9:40PM DTW-MSP and MSP-DTW flights. Seems like these are pretty important for getting home to DTW or MSP on the last flight banks from a number of destinations. Perhaps this is just a temporary change?

Answering my own question, it appears this was indeed a temporary cut. Just downloaded the latest DL schedule and there is now a 9:45PM MSP-DTW flight on a 753 and a 9:40PM DTW-MSP flight on a M88.

[Edited 2013-11-21 08:18:43]

User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7591 posts, RR: 27
Reply 97, posted (10 months 22 hours ago) and read 1451 times:

Quoting michman (Reply 96):
Answering my own question, it appears this was indeed a temporary cut. Just downloaded the latest DL schedule and there is now a 9:45PM MSP-DTW flight on a 753 and a 9:40PM DTW-MSP flight on a M88.

You sure?

Last day for it still appears 1/6, ends when they transition to the post-holiday schedule.


User currently offlinealfa164 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 472 posts, RR: 0
Reply 98, posted (10 months 22 hours ago) and read 1431 times:

Quoting mhkansan (Reply 5):
**DL DTW-FNT JAN 3>0.3 FEB 3>0 MAR 3>0 APR 3>0 MAY 3>0 JUN 3>0 JUL 3>0
This almost has to be an error. DL sends MD-80s to FNT from ATL!

Maybe a way to stop people from buying a (cheap) ticket to Flint, when they really intend to get off at (more expensive) Detroit - a common practice if you only have carry-on bags.

Routing via MSP or ATL instead of DTW makes that impossible.


User currently offlineDeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9411 posts, RR: 14
Reply 99, posted (10 months 4 hours ago) and read 1239 times:

im going OT to a point, sorry mods.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 77):
Then again, given that Georgia taxpayers are fine in paying for a new baseball stadium

and a football stadium for a team that is under 500.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 77):
maybe DL could hit them up for a new terminal

hell I would. If i were Delta I'd be going after a new terminal, new hangars, new GO.....why not right?




and that would all be a much more meaningful investment for the state and city than those two stupid stadiums could ever be. (even though one is Cobb County, not the city)

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 80):
Let's win some World Series first...

and super bowls......


and I'm sure the Hawks will be jumping on the band wagon.....so add NBA championships to that also.

Ok, sorry. hit a nerve.....back to your discussion



yep.
User currently offlinemichman From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 505 posts, RR: 0
Reply 100, posted (10 months 3 hours ago) and read 1227 times:

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 97):
You sure?

Last day for it still appears 1/6, ends when they transition to the post-holiday schedule.

Yes, It's back in there on the downloadable schedule Delta PC application. This update also has the last DC9 flights loaded for 1/6/2014. My understanding is that these well be reflected on the bookable schedule which updates on Saturday.


User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7591 posts, RR: 27
Reply 101, posted (10 months 1 hour ago) and read 1150 times:

Quoting michman (Reply 100):
Yes, It's back in there on the downloadable schedule Delta PC application. This update also has the last DC9 flights loaded for 1/6/2014. My understanding is that these well be reflected on the bookable schedule which updates on Saturday.

Oh ok, I see it now since they restored it at 3x per week, but only out to 2/13/14. I was looking on days it doesn't operate.
The 9:40pm DTW-MSP operates Mon, Wed, Fri only with an MD88
The 9:45pm MSP-DTW operates Mon, Wed, Thu only with a 753


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