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Delta In Oakland  
User currently offlineseatback From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 769 posts, RR: 0
Posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 9255 times:

Oakland is an interesting city for me. With it being so close to San Francisco you would think it could sustain the likes of UA and AA. It's interesting that Delta is choosing to stay in Oakland and battle it out with WN on their two nonstop routes (LAX and SLC). They can't be making any money. I understand the LAX flights could be used for connectivity to Mexico, Hawaii and Asia, but seven is a lot.

Why haven't they chosen to fly N/S to MSP, DTW, and/or ATL nonstop...where there's no direct nonstop competition?

I know OAK is low yield, but you would think there's less money lost going to those three cities versus seven CR7/9 flights.

The same question could be asked regarding US to PHL and CLT.

69 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3097 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 9155 times:

Quoting seatback (Thread starter):
Why haven't they chosen to fly N/S to MSP, DTW, and/or ATL nonstop...where there's no direct nonstop competition?

DL did fly OAK-ATL 2-3/daily for a while. They also did SJC-ATL 2-3/daily. They dropped OAK-ATL and cut SJC back to one daily. To my knowledge, NW never flew to OAK. They did also do SJC-MSP - one of which still remains with an MD-90 under DL - but SJC-DTW didn't last very long.

That's a good question. If one lives near OAK or any other secondary airport, it's far better than having to go to a farther off large airport.

AA has cut a lot of the satellite airports. OAK, BUR and LGB are gone; SJC is just a tiny spoke now, and they've cut some of the other airports near New York. As you allude to, CO cut OAK-IAH about the same time that AA cut OAK-DFW.


User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7231 posts, RR: 13
Reply 2, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 9105 times:

Quoting seatback (Thread starter):
Why haven't they chosen to fly N/S to MSP, DTW, and/or ATL nonstop

I think OAK-MSP makes more sense than OAK-SLC, but my guess is that they consider OAK low-yield and are just putting their eggs in the SFO basket like everybody else.


User currently offlineburnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7547 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 9100 times:

OAK used to have non-stop to ATL a few years ago.


"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineseatback From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 769 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 9102 times:

I know I fully don't understand the market, but with OAK a far more convenient choice for those in the East Bay and SJC for those in the South Bay and tech areas, those airports are way more convenient. You would think they could warrant at least a few nonstop to uncompetitive cities (MSP/DTW and ATL).

AA did the same thing when they chopped DFW-OAK.


User currently offlineAlsatian From France, joined May 2005, 423 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 9014 times:

Quoting seatback (Thread starter):
They can't be making any money. I understand the LAX flights could be used for connectivity to Mexico, Hawaii and Asia, but seven is a lot.

Not sure that this is money-looser route for DL as there will be a frequency increase starting may with the introduction of a 8th daily flight (all CR7)

OAK just like BUR LGB or ONT are unavoidable in the Delta' s SLC network, their west coast hub. BTW SLC - OAK route is operated by A32S.



Ok I am French but I am not on strike
User currently offlinemodesto2 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2806 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 8959 times:

DL's LAXOAK service derives its most value from connections in LAX, but it's no secret that a 7x schedule is also designed to attract much local traffic. With the carrier's growing commitment to LAX, this route (and other California markets such as SMF and SJC) will stay.

Quoting enilria (Reply 2):
I think OAK-MSP makes more sense than OAK-SLC

Unless there is some compelling reason to operate MSPOAK (such as a strong business traffic link), why overfly a major DL hub in SLC?

As others have mentioned, OAK is generally low-yielding as a result of intense competition from WN and B6 & NK to a lesser extent. ATLOAK's longer stage length makes it more challenging to turn a profit in a low yield environment, and this dynamic is reflected in DL's commitment to only shorter routes from OAK.


User currently offlineMIflyer12 From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 1051 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 8834 times:

Quoting seatback (Thread starter):
Why haven't they chosen to fly N/S to MSP, DTW, and/or ATL nonstop...where there's no direct nonstop competition?

Just sticking with MSP, is there evidence of much demand OAK to MSP or the upper Midwest generally, other than CHI?

I suppose the 717 arrivals could free up a 319 for OAK-MSP.


User currently offlineseatback From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 769 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 8735 times:

Quoting modesto2 (Reply 6):
Unless there is some compelling reason to operate MSPOAK (such as a strong business traffic link), why overfly a major DL hub in SLC?

Agreed. Good point with regards to MSP. But, ATL could offer a slew of connection opportunities for the Southest and Eastern seaboard. These cities aren't connected through SLC.

Generally, right now, if you're going to the East coast, you'll have to endure a double connection, which makes the drive to SFO not so bad.


User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3478 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 8476 times:

Delta doesnt seem to have too hard a time filling OAK-SLC. It might not warrant as high a fare as SFO but does appeal to a different group of people in an area with tolls and traffic. OAK and SJC are important for their network. Lets just say SLC-OAK breaks even i think its worth flying.

User currently offlinemikesairways From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 716 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 8471 times:
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DL is adding a second SJC-ATL this spring. So we'll have an afternoon departure in addition to the current red-eye only.


The red zone is for the immediate loading and unloading of passengers only, there is no stopping in the white zone...(Ai
User currently onlineANA787 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 291 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 8430 times:

Watch for DL to add SEA-OAK in the next round of SEA expansion.

User currently onlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3097 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 8120 times:

Quoting mikesairways (Reply 10):
DL is adding a second SJC-ATL this spring. So we'll have an afternoon departure in addition to the current red-eye only.

Oh really? What equipment? I believe the red-eye alternates between a 737-800 and A319.

Quoting ANA787 (Reply 11):
Watch for DL to add SEA-OAK in the next round of SEA expansion.

That's what I've been wondering. Will DL add SJC, SNA and OAK from SEA? I still am an AS fan-boy. I won't even bother to look at DL when booking to those places. I pretty much just look at AS flights anywhere I go where they serve, without even looking at other carriers.


User currently offlineexFWAOONW From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 405 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 8079 times:

One other possibilty, though I doubt it is justified: an alternate to SFO with their own staff to handle the irregular ops for the times when SFO is socked in.


Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?
User currently onlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3097 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 8032 times:

Quoting exFWAOONW (Reply 13):
One other possibilty, though I doubt it is justified: an alternate to SFO with their own staff to handle the irregular ops for the times when SFO is socked in.

DL has slightly more operations in SJC so I would think they could use that as an alternate.


User currently offlinejohnboy From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 2594 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 7816 times:

IIRC, Delta OAK-ATL seemed to "mysteriously" appear and disappear when B6 started (then cancelled) their own flight(s) to ATL during the initial build-up of OAK.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but that's the distinct impression I got at the time.
Maybe i'm just cynical though.  


User currently onlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3097 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 7811 times:

Quoting johnboy (Reply 15):
IIRC, Delta OAK-ATL seemed to "mysteriously" appear and disappear when B6 started (then cancelled) their own flight(s) to ATL during the initial build-up of OAK.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but that's the distinct impression I got at the time.
Maybe i'm just cynical though.

OAK-ATL was operating before that. Maybe you are thinking of AA? They had OAK-JFK and ONT-JFK flights mysteriously appear and disappear when B6 entered that market.


User currently offline93Sierra From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 419 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 7457 times:

Why did AA pull out of BUR? I remember seeing their Maddogs their not to long ago.

User currently offlinewedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5912 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 7204 times:
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Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 1):
To my knowledge, NW never flew to OAK.

Yes, NW served OAK from the early 1990's through the mid-1990's. They started out flying 2X daily 72S service OAK-MSP and quickly transitioned A320's. But they did discontinue service due to poor loads.

DL's OAK-SLC service is a hold-over from the WA days. After the merger, DL added MD-88 service to DFW. The DFW service was discontinued when DL dehubbed DFW.

Some other history. DL Express flew OAK-RNO for brief period using Metros and Brasilias. The OAK-LAX flights are the newest to DL at OAK. Seasonally, DL does fly OAK-ATL, usually just once per day using 738's.


User currently offlinemodesto2 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2806 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 7063 times:

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 18):
Seasonally, DL does fly OAK-ATL, usually just once per day using 738's.

Point of clarification: DL does NOT operate ATLOAK, not even seasonally. The route previously operated, but is no longer offered.


User currently offlineNOLAWildcat From United States of America, joined Oct 2013, 30 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 6936 times:

It's too bad the legacies don't have more service to OAK. Oakland is far more convenient for much of the Bay Area, and while Oakland itself isn't particularly affluent, the Far East Bay, the Tri-Valleys area, and Fremont have wealthy communities and a size able tech industry presence. Southwest is the 800 lbs gorilla in the market, but I'm surprised AA and UA can't make a O'Hare or Texas route work with the connections available. Personally I'd like a red-eye to ORD, IAH, or DFW to make getting back East or down South by lunchtime feasible without having to drive over to SFO.


Wall-to-wall Football is ruining my weekend.
User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3302 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 6832 times:

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 18):
Yes, NW served OAK from the early 1990's through the mid-1990's. They started out flying 2X daily 72S service OAK-MSP and quickly transitioned A320's. But they did discontinue service due to poor loads

Yep, here is the proof .....

http://www.departedflights.com/NW121592p17.html



AA AC AQ AS BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OO OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN
User currently offlinemodesto2 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2806 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 6698 times:

Quoting NOLAWildcat (Reply 20):
Oakland itself isn't particularly affluent, the Far East Bay, the Tri-Valleys area, and Fremont have wealthy communities and a size able tech industry presence

Very true. Oakland has a rough reputation, but I can say with much confidence that most Americans cannot afford to live in the Oakland hills. As you mentioned, east of the hills include affluent neighborhoods such as Orinda, Moraga, Lafayette, Walnut Creek, Danville, Alamo, and San Ramon.

However, WN's dominance in the OAK market has priced most of the majors out of that market, and the legacies must now focus and defend their SFO and SJC services.


User currently offlinereality From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 491 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 6492 times:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 1):
NW never flew to OAK.
Quoting RWA380 (Reply 21):
Yep, here is the proof .....

I recall that the MSP OAK flights lasted for only a few months or certainly for less than a year. I seem to remember that some other airline started to serve OAK-MSP (can't image who that would be) and that Northwest then and only then started this route. As soon as the competitor left, Northwest did too. Anyone else remember something like this? (Maybe I'm hallucinating.)

I had a cousin who was a pilot for Northwest. We made plans to meet. Before we could the service was discontinued!

[Edited 2013-11-12 18:32:32]

User currently offlinereality From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 491 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 6440 times:

Quoting modesto2 (Reply 22):
WN's dominance in the OAK market has priced most of the majors out of that market

Perhaps this is true, but whenever I check fares I find that WN is no cheaper than anyone else, including flights from SFO. If fact it seems that WN is often more expensive than the "majors." Is WN still considered a low-cost airline? Isn't it a "major." Doesn't seem much different these days than any other carrier.

I think people fly WN because they like it and it goes where they want to go, frequently, and without a lot of hassle. Not necessarily because of price.


25 modesto2 : Keep in mind that WN now has more pricing power at OAK since most of the majors have moved out. Years ago, WN offered lower fares in the market and e
26 n471wn : Agree that WN is now taking advantage of OAK and alienating its long time East Bay customers like me (Danville). But with the BART light rail soon to
27 FSDan : I'm sure DL is hoping to pick up some of the business traffic that is on the Oakland side of the bay, such as Kaiser Permanente and Clorox. Even just
28 nutsaboutplanes : Its just more cost effective to funnel the traffic through PHX with a quick connection. Considering the yields, transcons would be prohibitive.
29 redzeppelin : As I read this, it strikes me that DL is also the only "legacy" carrier serving MDW. I think a lot of the arguments presented here to support OAK ser
30 RIDGID727 : While many think "bags fly free" more and more WN fares reflect that the actual "bags fly free" is really not so, as it is built into their fare stru
31 wedgetail737 : OAK-ATL fizzled out longer ago than I thought. But it doesn't mean they'll won't bring it back. Sun Country has never served OAK. Republic served OAK
32 RWA380 : When I lived in the city, it was easier for us, to use OAK, but the BART to Bus transfer made it a wash as far as going the other way to SFO. Now tha
33 Deltal1011man : I don't remember B6 flying ATL-OAK. Are you sure your not talking about when they tried LGB?
34 wedgetail737 : SFO is also a lot more accessible with BART now serving SFO directly. I had heard that the monorail between OAK and the McArthur Station (I think tha
35 mikesairways : Used to be 752 for a while, than became just seasonal 752 and now just 738. Daytime flight is 738 as well, don't think i've ever seen Airbus on that.
36 Post contains links johnboy : Alright guys, you had me doubting myself but here's a USA Today blurb that states B6 pulled flights from both Oakland and Long Beach due to too-low fa
37 RWA380 : Exactly, lets not also forget World Airways and Transamerica, both used OAK as the gateway to the bay area, but I think you got all the international
38 strfyr51 : because BART goes directly into SFO manyy east Bay Passengers can avoid using OAK go straight to SFO and take a Non Stop to Wherever. If OAK generated
39 seatback : Didn't PeoplExpress also serve OAK to BRU? I think with the growth in the area, the future is bright for OAK. I wouldn't be surprised to see AA back,
40 Flytravel : UA has it's hub in SFO. I suppose it views akin to serving MDW or HOU with hubs in ORD and IAH. NYC is likely larger enough that UA knows JFK/LGA and
41 wedgetail737 : True...How could I forget about those two airlines since they were BASED at OAK. I wanted to mention that the first Mexican carrier that served OAK w
42 timz : When?
43 BoeingGuy : I'm not aware that HP ever did OAK-SEA either. UA tried it around 1994 with that Shuttle by United service with 737-300s, and then later dropped it.
44 wedgetail737 : I want to say late 1980's.
45 reality : The BART OAK Connector goes from Coliseum Station to OAK. There won't be a separate fare. You can use your BART ticket to exit. It will cost about $5
46 luckyone : Different kettle of fish. Delta is now the only *legacy* that doesn't have a hub in Chicago.
47 modesto2 : Even after the completion of the OAK connector, I'll still prefer BART's direct connection to SFO. The OAK connector still requires a transfer and ad
48 ytib : Correct, It will be an addon fee to take the monorail when it opens just like it is now on AirBart. Currently Powell Street (near Union Square) to SF
49 rickabone : I know it would be a bit of a logistical/engineering headache, but I always thought it would be awesome to have post-security ferry service between O
50 mayor : Actually, right after deregulation, OAK was one of the expansion cities in the west, with service to ATL. As mentioned, DL had OAK-ATL service starti
51 olddominion727 : I don't see the 2nd daily from SJC-ATL in the spring. Still show's the red-eye
52 olddominion727 : carriers have really tried to make OAK work. AA flew OAK-DFW, LAX, BUR, ORD, JFK all at different times during their stay in OAK. Before anyone says t
53 Alsatian : DL 1583 SJC 1150 - 1919 ATL 738 Dx3 DL 1684 SJC 2235 - 0604+1 ATL 738 D DL 1583 ATL 0845 - 1102 SJC 738 Dx3 DL 1684 ATL 1920 - 2137 SJC 738 D
54 timz : Turns out HP's OAK-SEA and OAK-YYC ended in 1988. Didn't find any HP nonstops OAK-PDX.
55 wedgetail737 : AS doesn't have a hub at ORD. Yes they did. The Convairs were 580s. They flew to RNO and BUR. AE also tried SBP and SBA using metros.
56 n471wn : When American, United and Continental pulled out they admitted the problem was not profitability but rather the low number of flights which made it d
57 RWA380 : UA did a lot of maintenance at OAK, not sure all the A/C types, but I know 747s were serviced there at one time.
58 Post contains links legacyins : Are you sure? This what they said when they ended service: United: http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/201...ding-service-from-oakland-airport/ American
59 modesto2 : I could understand how the few number of flights makes it challenging to turn a profit, but I don't understand the logistics issue. With CO, the airc
60 luckyone : AS is not a legacy. They do not have a comprehensive network.[Edited 2013-11-15 09:18:58]
61 SANFan : I believe UA also flew OAK-SAN as a Shuttle by United route for a time -- mid-90s -- along with SMF-SAN. (I KNOW they flew between SMF and SAN; OAK-S
62 DesertAir : When Delta still had its DFW hub, they flew two or three times a day. I recall waiting at the gate (long past) for a friend to arrive.
63 DesertAir : When Delta still had its DFW hub, they flew two or three times a day. I recall waiting at the gate (long past) for a friend to arrive.
64 bjorn14 : What are WN's pax numbers at OAK? How dominan t are they? They were willing to put the number of flights in OAK to make it profitable.
65 Post contains links MIflyer12 : Southwest carries ~70% of OAK's domestic traffic, and there isn't a great deal of international traffic. Total domestic passenger count is 4.7 millio
66 PSU.DTW.SCE : The primary reason that DL has been able to make OAK work is because of SLC.
67 Post contains images rickabone : Not that it has anything to do with it, but Oakland for a long time had the 2nd biggest Mormon temple behind Salt Lake City.
68 n471wn : As Mormon I can tell you that is not right--many larger than Oakland including San Diego and Washington D.C.
69 rickabone : That's why I said "for a long time" it was... I know it isn't any longer, but it was the 2nd largest for a long time.
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