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Delta In Oakland  
User currently offlineseatback From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 780 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 1 month 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 9356 times:

Oakland is an interesting city for me. With it being so close to San Francisco you would think it could sustain the likes of UA and AA. It's interesting that Delta is choosing to stay in Oakland and battle it out with WN on their two nonstop routes (LAX and SLC). They can't be making any money. I understand the LAX flights could be used for connectivity to Mexico, Hawaii and Asia, but seven is a lot.

Why haven't they chosen to fly N/S to MSP, DTW, and/or ATL nonstop...where there's no direct nonstop competition?

I know OAK is low yield, but you would think there's less money lost going to those three cities versus seven CR7/9 flights.

The same question could be asked regarding US to PHL and CLT.

69 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3258 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (1 year 1 month 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 9256 times:

Quoting seatback (Thread starter):
Why haven't they chosen to fly N/S to MSP, DTW, and/or ATL nonstop...where there's no direct nonstop competition?

DL did fly OAK-ATL 2-3/daily for a while. They also did SJC-ATL 2-3/daily. They dropped OAK-ATL and cut SJC back to one daily. To my knowledge, NW never flew to OAK. They did also do SJC-MSP - one of which still remains with an MD-90 under DL - but SJC-DTW didn't last very long.

That's a good question. If one lives near OAK or any other secondary airport, it's far better than having to go to a farther off large airport.

AA has cut a lot of the satellite airports. OAK, BUR and LGB are gone; SJC is just a tiny spoke now, and they've cut some of the other airports near New York. As you allude to, CO cut OAK-IAH about the same time that AA cut OAK-DFW.


User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7687 posts, RR: 15
Reply 2, posted (1 year 1 month 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 9206 times:

Quoting seatback (Thread starter):
Why haven't they chosen to fly N/S to MSP, DTW, and/or ATL nonstop

I think OAK-MSP makes more sense than OAK-SLC, but my guess is that they consider OAK low-yield and are just putting their eggs in the SFO basket like everybody else.


User currently offlineburnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7564 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (1 year 1 month 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 9201 times:

OAK used to have non-stop to ATL a few years ago.


"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineseatback From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 780 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 1 month 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 9203 times:

I know I fully don't understand the market, but with OAK a far more convenient choice for those in the East Bay and SJC for those in the South Bay and tech areas, those airports are way more convenient. You would think they could warrant at least a few nonstop to uncompetitive cities (MSP/DTW and ATL).

AA did the same thing when they chopped DFW-OAK.


User currently offlineAlsatian From France, joined May 2005, 439 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 1 month 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 9115 times:

Quoting seatback (Thread starter):
They can't be making any money. I understand the LAX flights could be used for connectivity to Mexico, Hawaii and Asia, but seven is a lot.

Not sure that this is money-looser route for DL as there will be a frequency increase starting may with the introduction of a 8th daily flight (all CR7)

OAK just like BUR LGB or ONT are unavoidable in the Delta' s SLC network, their west coast hub. BTW SLC - OAK route is operated by A32S.



Ok I am French but I am not on strike
User currently offlinemodesto2 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2819 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (1 year 1 month 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 9060 times:

DL's LAXOAK service derives its most value from connections in LAX, but it's no secret that a 7x schedule is also designed to attract much local traffic. With the carrier's growing commitment to LAX, this route (and other California markets such as SMF and SJC) will stay.

Quoting enilria (Reply 2):
I think OAK-MSP makes more sense than OAK-SLC

Unless there is some compelling reason to operate MSPOAK (such as a strong business traffic link), why overfly a major DL hub in SLC?

As others have mentioned, OAK is generally low-yielding as a result of intense competition from WN and B6 & NK to a lesser extent. ATLOAK's longer stage length makes it more challenging to turn a profit in a low yield environment, and this dynamic is reflected in DL's commitment to only shorter routes from OAK.


User currently offlineMIflyer12 From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 1230 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 1 month 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 8935 times:

Quoting seatback (Thread starter):
Why haven't they chosen to fly N/S to MSP, DTW, and/or ATL nonstop...where there's no direct nonstop competition?

Just sticking with MSP, is there evidence of much demand OAK to MSP or the upper Midwest generally, other than CHI?

I suppose the 717 arrivals could free up a 319 for OAK-MSP.


User currently offlineseatback From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 780 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 1 month 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 8836 times:

Quoting modesto2 (Reply 6):
Unless there is some compelling reason to operate MSPOAK (such as a strong business traffic link), why overfly a major DL hub in SLC?

Agreed. Good point with regards to MSP. But, ATL could offer a slew of connection opportunities for the Southest and Eastern seaboard. These cities aren't connected through SLC.

Generally, right now, if you're going to the East coast, you'll have to endure a double connection, which makes the drive to SFO not so bad.


User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3637 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 1 month 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 8577 times:

Delta doesnt seem to have too hard a time filling OAK-SLC. It might not warrant as high a fare as SFO but does appeal to a different group of people in an area with tolls and traffic. OAK and SJC are important for their network. Lets just say SLC-OAK breaks even i think its worth flying.

User currently offlinemikesairways From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 725 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 1 month 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 8572 times:
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DL is adding a second SJC-ATL this spring. So we'll have an afternoon departure in addition to the current red-eye only.


The red zone is for the immediate loading and unloading of passengers only, there is no stopping in the white zone...(Ai
User currently offlineANA787 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 342 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 1 month 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 8531 times:

Watch for DL to add SEA-OAK in the next round of SEA expansion.

User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3258 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (1 year 1 month 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 8221 times:

Quoting mikesairways (Reply 10):
DL is adding a second SJC-ATL this spring. So we'll have an afternoon departure in addition to the current red-eye only.

Oh really? What equipment? I believe the red-eye alternates between a 737-800 and A319.

Quoting ANA787 (Reply 11):
Watch for DL to add SEA-OAK in the next round of SEA expansion.

That's what I've been wondering. Will DL add SJC, SNA and OAK from SEA? I still am an AS fan-boy. I won't even bother to look at DL when booking to those places. I pretty much just look at AS flights anywhere I go where they serve, without even looking at other carriers.


User currently offlineexFWAOONW From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 415 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 1 month 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 8180 times:

One other possibilty, though I doubt it is justified: an alternate to SFO with their own staff to handle the irregular ops for the times when SFO is socked in.


Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?
User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3258 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (1 year 1 month 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 8133 times:

Quoting exFWAOONW (Reply 13):
One other possibilty, though I doubt it is justified: an alternate to SFO with their own staff to handle the irregular ops for the times when SFO is socked in.

DL has slightly more operations in SJC so I would think they could use that as an alternate.


User currently offlinejohnboy From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 2601 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (1 year 1 month 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 7917 times:

IIRC, Delta OAK-ATL seemed to "mysteriously" appear and disappear when B6 started (then cancelled) their own flight(s) to ATL during the initial build-up of OAK.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but that's the distinct impression I got at the time.
Maybe i'm just cynical though.  


User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3258 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (1 year 1 month 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 7912 times:

Quoting johnboy (Reply 15):
IIRC, Delta OAK-ATL seemed to "mysteriously" appear and disappear when B6 started (then cancelled) their own flight(s) to ATL during the initial build-up of OAK.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but that's the distinct impression I got at the time.
Maybe i'm just cynical though.

OAK-ATL was operating before that. Maybe you are thinking of AA? They had OAK-JFK and ONT-JFK flights mysteriously appear and disappear when B6 entered that market.


User currently offline93Sierra From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 420 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 1 month 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 7558 times:

Why did AA pull out of BUR? I remember seeing their Maddogs their not to long ago.

User currently offlinewedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5950 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (1 year 1 month 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 7305 times:
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Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 1):
To my knowledge, NW never flew to OAK.

Yes, NW served OAK from the early 1990's through the mid-1990's. They started out flying 2X daily 72S service OAK-MSP and quickly transitioned A320's. But they did discontinue service due to poor loads.

DL's OAK-SLC service is a hold-over from the WA days. After the merger, DL added MD-88 service to DFW. The DFW service was discontinued when DL dehubbed DFW.

Some other history. DL Express flew OAK-RNO for brief period using Metros and Brasilias. The OAK-LAX flights are the newest to DL at OAK. Seasonally, DL does fly OAK-ATL, usually just once per day using 738's.


User currently offlinemodesto2 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2819 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (1 year 1 month 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 7164 times:

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 18):
Seasonally, DL does fly OAK-ATL, usually just once per day using 738's.

Point of clarification: DL does NOT operate ATLOAK, not even seasonally. The route previously operated, but is no longer offered.


User currently offlineNOLAWildcat From United States of America, joined Oct 2013, 34 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 1 month 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 7037 times:

It's too bad the legacies don't have more service to OAK. Oakland is far more convenient for much of the Bay Area, and while Oakland itself isn't particularly affluent, the Far East Bay, the Tri-Valleys area, and Fremont have wealthy communities and a size able tech industry presence. Southwest is the 800 lbs gorilla in the market, but I'm surprised AA and UA can't make a O'Hare or Texas route work with the connections available. Personally I'd like a red-eye to ORD, IAH, or DFW to make getting back East or down South by lunchtime feasible without having to drive over to SFO.


Wall-to-wall Football is ruining my weekend.
User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3454 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (1 year 1 month 6 days ago) and read 6933 times:

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 18):
Yes, NW served OAK from the early 1990's through the mid-1990's. They started out flying 2X daily 72S service OAK-MSP and quickly transitioned A320's. But they did discontinue service due to poor loads

Yep, here is the proof .....

http://www.departedflights.com/NW121592p17.html



AA AC AQ AS BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OO OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN
User currently offlinemodesto2 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2819 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (1 year 1 month 6 days ago) and read 6799 times:

Quoting NOLAWildcat (Reply 20):
Oakland itself isn't particularly affluent, the Far East Bay, the Tri-Valleys area, and Fremont have wealthy communities and a size able tech industry presence

Very true. Oakland has a rough reputation, but I can say with much confidence that most Americans cannot afford to live in the Oakland hills. As you mentioned, east of the hills include affluent neighborhoods such as Orinda, Moraga, Lafayette, Walnut Creek, Danville, Alamo, and San Ramon.

However, WN's dominance in the OAK market has priced most of the majors out of that market, and the legacies must now focus and defend their SFO and SJC services.


User currently offlinereality From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 514 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 1 month 6 days ago) and read 6593 times:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 1):
NW never flew to OAK.
Quoting RWA380 (Reply 21):
Yep, here is the proof .....

I recall that the MSP OAK flights lasted for only a few months or certainly for less than a year. I seem to remember that some other airline started to serve OAK-MSP (can't image who that would be) and that Northwest then and only then started this route. As soon as the competitor left, Northwest did too. Anyone else remember something like this? (Maybe I'm hallucinating.)

I had a cousin who was a pilot for Northwest. We made plans to meet. Before we could the service was discontinued!

[Edited 2013-11-12 18:32:32]

User currently offlinereality From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 514 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 1 month 6 days ago) and read 6541 times:

Quoting modesto2 (Reply 22):
WN's dominance in the OAK market has priced most of the majors out of that market

Perhaps this is true, but whenever I check fares I find that WN is no cheaper than anyone else, including flights from SFO. If fact it seems that WN is often more expensive than the "majors." Is WN still considered a low-cost airline? Isn't it a "major." Doesn't seem much different these days than any other carrier.

I think people fly WN because they like it and it goes where they want to go, frequently, and without a lot of hassle. Not necessarily because of price.


User currently offlinemodesto2 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2819 posts, RR: 5
Reply 25, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 6626 times:

Quoting reality (Reply 24):
Perhaps this is true, but whenever I check fares I find that WN is no cheaper than anyone else, including flights from SFO. If fact it seems that WN is often more expensive than the "majors." Is WN still considered a low-cost airline? Isn't it a "major." Doesn't seem much different these days than any other carrier.

I think people fly WN because they like it and it goes where they want to go, frequently, and without a lot of hassle. Not necessarily because of price.

Keep in mind that WN now has more pricing power at OAK since most of the majors have moved out. Years ago, WN offered lower fares in the market and effectively priced out others. Now that WN has a majority of the market share, it can raise fares and enjoy its dominance.


User currently offlinen471wn From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1601 posts, RR: 2
Reply 26, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 6603 times:
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Quoting modesto2 (Reply 25):
Keep in mind that WN now has more pricing power at OAK since most of the majors have moved out. Years ago, WN offered lower fares in the market and effectively priced out others. Now that WN has a majority of the market share, it can raise fares and enjoy its dominance.

Agree that WN is now taking advantage of OAK and alienating its long time East Bay customers like me (Danville). But with the BART light rail soon to go to OAK, I think that the future looks bright for OAK. For instance Hawaiian Air and AS have increased flights to Hawaii and Norweigen is going to start service this summer.


User currently offlineFSDan From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 757 posts, RR: 2
Reply 27, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 6666 times:

I'm sure DL is hoping to pick up some of the business traffic that is on the Oakland side of the bay, such as Kaiser Permanente and Clorox. Even just with CR7/9s, they can offer first class seats that WN doesn't have.

Also, there's bound to be some traffic from San Francisco that spills across the bridge, especially seeing as SFO is consistently one of the most delayed airports in the country and OAK is much smaller and easier to transit.



SEA SFO SJC LAX ONT SAN DEN IAH DFW OMA FSD MSP MSN MKE ORD DTW CVG MEM JAN BHM RSW ATL CLT BWI PHL LGA JFK MEX LIM KEF
User currently offlinenutsaboutplanes From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 510 posts, RR: 8
Reply 28, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 6594 times:

Quoting seatback (Thread starter):
The same question could be asked regarding US to PHL and CLT.

Its just more cost effective to funnel the traffic through PHX with a quick connection. Considering the yields, transcons would be prohibitive.



American Airlines, US Airways, Alaska Airlines, Northwest Airlines, America West Airlines, USAFR
User currently offlineredzeppelin From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 638 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 6352 times:

Quoting seatback (Thread starter):
With it being so close to San Francisco you would think it could sustain the likes of UA and AA. It's interesting that Delta is choosing to stay in Oakland and battle it out with WN on their two nonstop routes (LAX and SLC).
Quoting seatback (Reply 4):

I know I fully don't understand the market, but with OAK a far more convenient choice for those in the East Bay and SJC for those in the South Bay and tech areas, those airports are way more convenient.

As I read this, it strikes me that DL is also the only "legacy" carrier serving MDW. I think a lot of the arguments presented here to support OAK service can also be used to explain continued MDW service. When you are competing with carriers with major hubs and extensive nonstop options at airports like SFO or ORD, and you are only offering flights to your own hubs, why not give flyers the flexibility of choosing a secondary airport like OAK or MDW. It at least gives you a slight competitive advantage with flyers who have reason to prefer that airport.



Flown: DL,OS,NZ,UN,VV,NW,AA,UA,HP,TZ,AS,AF,KL,SK,WS,AZ,OK; op by OO,MQ,XJ,9E,G7,EV,QX,RP
User currently offlineRIDGID727 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1242 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 6211 times:

Quoting reality (Reply 24):

Perhaps this is true, but whenever I check fares I find that WN is no cheaper than anyone else, including flights from SFO. If fact it seems that WN is often more expensive than the "majors." Is WN still considered a low-cost airline? Isn't it a "major." Doesn't seem much different these days than any other carrier.

While many think "bags fly free" more and more WN fares reflect that the actual "bags fly free" is really not so, as it is built into their fare structure and showing up more and more.


User currently offlinewedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5950 posts, RR: 6
Reply 31, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 5913 times:
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Quoting modesto2 (Reply 19):
Point of clarification: DL does NOT operate ATLOAK, not even seasonally. The route previously operated, but is no longer offered.

OAK-ATL fizzled out longer ago than I thought. But it doesn't mean they'll won't bring it back.

Quoting reality (Reply 23):
I recall that the MSP OAK flights lasted for only a few months or certainly for less than a year. I seem to remember that some other airline started to serve OAK-MSP (can't image who that would be) and that Northwest then and only then started this route.

Sun Country has never served OAK. Republic served OAK-RNO-SLC-MSP using DC-9-30 equipment, many years prior to NW. The NW service lasted longer than you think...on the order of at least a couple of consecutive summers in the early 1990's.

OAK lost AA, UA and CO all left OAK when the airlines were losing $millions and $billions. DL, CO and AA all have been known to leave OAK and then a few years later, re-enter the market.

There's plenty of gate space at OAK. Even G4 has scaled back significantly at OAK.

Quoting NOLAWildcat (Reply 20):
the Far East Bay, the Tri-Valleys area, and Fremont have wealthy communities and a size able tech industry presence.

The only "other" airports around the Bay Area that have had airline service, even to the smallest degree have been CCR (Concord, CA) with West Air and PSA/USAir, STS with UA Express, Westates and now Horizon. Even Vallejo and Napa County Airport had airline service back in the 1970's with Stol Air.

With Contra Costa County expanding so much and the Livermore/Pleasanton areas expanding leaps-and-bounds also, it's too bad CCR has regained airline service (you all know how that goes) and Livermore airport (probably the same reason as CCR).


User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3454 posts, RR: 5
Reply 32, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 5589 times:

Quoting n471wn (Reply 26):
Agree that WN is now taking advantage of OAK and alienating its long time East Bay customers like me (Danville). But with the BART light rail soon to go to OAK, I think that the future looks bright for OAK. For instance Hawaiian Air and AS have increased flights to Hawaii and Norweigen is going to start service this summer.

When I lived in the city, it was easier for us, to use OAK, but the BART to Bus transfer made it a wash as far as going the other way to SFO. Now that BART is going to be serving OAK directly, I'm guessing anyone on a BART line Concord and in will use OAK, and for those who drive, parking at OAK is less expensive anyway.

I 100% agree with you, Norwegian is just the beginning of low cost international airlines that will show interest in serving OAK as a gateway to San Francisco. I also think it is quite possible, we will see an up tick of domestic options as well.

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 31):
With Contra Costa County expanding so much and the Livermore/Pleasanton areas expanding leaps-and-bounds

My buddies in Fairfield/Birds Landing area use SMF, while my gal friend in Napa prefers OAK. But either way, all these new homes, mean more people are going to need air service from somewhere.



AA AC AQ AS BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OO OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN
User currently offlineDeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9700 posts, RR: 14
Reply 33, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 5523 times:

Quoting johnboy (Reply 15):

I don't remember B6 flying ATL-OAK.

Are you sure your not talking about when they tried LGB?



yep.
User currently offlinewedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5950 posts, RR: 6
Reply 34, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 5328 times:
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Quoting RWA380 (Reply 32):
When I lived in the city, it was easier for us, to use OAK, but the BART to Bus transfer made it a wash as far as going the other way to SFO. Now that BART is going to be serving OAK directly, I'm guessing anyone on a BART line Concord and in will use OAK, and for those who drive, parking at OAK is less expensive anyway.

I 100% agree with you, Norwegian is just the beginning of low cost international airlines that will show interest in serving OAK as a gateway to San Francisco. I also think it is quite possible, we will see an up tick of domestic options as well.

SFO is also a lot more accessible with BART now serving SFO directly. I had heard that the monorail between OAK and the McArthur Station (I think that's right) will have a separate fare. It'll be a while before that monorail will be up and running. Does anyone have a timetable?

Before the last airline cyclic downturn, OAK started to get some substantial European charters. Martinair had been serving OAK forever. Then Corsair flew 747SP's on the PPT-OAK-ORY route. Lastly, Citybird used MD-11's on the OAK-Brussels route. Oh yeah and the OAK-Terceira 1X weekly flight during the summer.

I'm glad to see Norwegian making inroads to OAK. I hope they are successful. Now all OAK needs is an Asian carrier. They almost had one, Hong Kong Express or something like that.


User currently offlinemikesairways From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 725 posts, RR: 0
Reply 35, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 5316 times:
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Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 12):
Oh really? What equipment? I believe the red-eye alternates between a 737-800 and A319.

Used to be 752 for a while, than became just seasonal 752 and now just 738. Daytime flight is 738 as well, don't think i've ever seen Airbus on that.

It's been spotted a 73G a couple of times as well. '

Incidentally, on December 13 they are running an extra section 763 ATL-SJC as a revenue ferry to pick up the 49ers for their game that week. It is bookable on DL's website, RT was about $900 to do it.



The red zone is for the immediate loading and unloading of passengers only, there is no stopping in the white zone...(Ai
User currently offlinejohnboy From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 2601 posts, RR: 7
Reply 36, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 5158 times:

Alright guys, you had me doubting myself but here's a USA Today blurb that states B6 pulled flights from both Oakland and Long Beach due to too-low fares.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/trave...oday/2003-11-07-archiveoct24_x.htm

Oakland was B6's first Bay Area destination and they were starting a modest-sized build-up.


User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3454 posts, RR: 5
Reply 37, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 5101 times:

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 34):
They almost had one, Hong Kong Express or something like that

Exactly, lets not also forget World Airways and Transamerica, both used OAK as the gateway to the bay area, but I think you got all the international airlines that I can remember.

Also it really depends on what part of the city you live in, as to SFO or OAK, I lived just off Market, at Guerrero, which is a little less than half way from the Castro to Downtown



AA AC AQ AS BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OO OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN
User currently offlinestrfyr51 From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 1398 posts, RR: 1
Reply 38, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 5038 times:
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because BART goes directly into SFO manyy east Bay Passengers can avoid using OAK go straight to SFO and take a Non Stop to Wherever. If OAK generated the revenue Yield of SFO?? There wouldn't BE enough gates in Oakland They's be using Alameda as an airport (Alameda?? That's not a halg Bad Idea!! Just as close in as Oakland IS. )

User currently offlineseatback From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 780 posts, RR: 0
Reply 39, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4600 times:

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 37):
Exactly, lets not also forget World Airways and Transamerica, both used OAK as the gateway to the bay area, but I think you got all the international airlines that I can remember.

Didn't PeoplExpress also serve OAK to BRU?

I think with the growth in the area, the future is bright for OAK. I wouldn't be surprised to see AA back, although I guess that is a certain with yesterday's DOJ agreement.


User currently offlineFlytravel From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 873 posts, RR: 0
Reply 40, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 4292 times:

Quoting NOLAWildcat (Reply 20):
But I'm surprised AA and UA can't make a O'Hare or Texas route work with the connections available.
UA has it's hub in SFO. I suppose it views akin to serving MDW or HOU with hubs in ORD and IAH. NYC is likely larger enough that UA knows JFK/LGA and EWR have different local catchments, large enough individually, that it can't just service NYC with EWR. Similarly, it knows it can't just service WAS with just IAD.

As for AA, it's probable that it figures that the closest usable hub, DFW is too far away for the a decent schedule to OAK. AA doesn't service markets like PVD either. The new AA will probably keep OAK-PHX though.

[Edited 2013-11-13 06:08:13]

User currently offlinewedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5950 posts, RR: 6
Reply 41, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3900 times:
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Quoting RWA380 (Reply 37):
Exactly, lets not also forget World Airways and Transamerica, both used OAK as the gateway to the bay area, but I think you got all the international airlines that I can remember.

True...How could I forget about those two airlines since they were BASED at OAK.

I wanted to mention that the first Mexican carrier that served OAK was Aerocancun. Did you know Laker Airways also served OAK back in the 1970's?

Quoting seatback (Reply 39):
Didn't PeoplExpress also serve OAK to BRU?

Yes...very briefly. It occurred right before their transition from OAK to SFO. I missing those the 2X daily 747 flights OAK-EWR...one at 9-9:30AM and the 2nd at around 4PM.

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 40):
UA has it's hub in SFO.

It's interesting that you say that because during the late 1980's and early 1990's, UA tried to make a mini connection complex at OAK with mainline flights to DEN, ORD, LAX, PDX, SEA, HNL and UA Express flights to FAT and SNA. It lasted two or three years before it was taken down.

Another airline that tried OAK was HP with nonstops to PHX, LAS, PDX, SEA and YYC. The HP effort only lasted during one summer season.

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 40):
As for AA, it's probable that it figures that the closest usable hub, DFW is too far away for the a decent schedule to OAK. AA doesn't service markets like PVD either. The new AA will probably keep OAK-PHX though.

AA did a lot of tag-ons to mainly SJC and SMF before continuing on to either ORD or DFW back in the 1980's and early 1990's. More recently and briefly, AA tried LAX with ERJ's and JFK with 757's. But that didn't last long.

As a kid, I used to hang out at OAK a lot since it was only a 15-minute drive from my house at the time. I started hanging out there back when the upper level of T1 only went to gate 8 and they had multi-colored jetways. The lower level of T1 was the home of PSA and Alaska.


User currently offlinetimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6902 posts, RR: 7
Reply 42, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3764 times:

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 41):
Another airline that tried OAK was HP with nonstops to PHX, LAS, PDX, SEA and YYC.

When?


User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3258 posts, RR: 7
Reply 43, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3738 times:

Quoting timz (Reply 42):
Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 41):
Another airline that tried OAK was HP with nonstops to PHX, LAS, PDX, SEA and YYC.

When?

I'm not aware that HP ever did OAK-SEA either. UA tried it around 1994 with that Shuttle by United service with 737-300s, and then later dropped it.


User currently offlinewedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5950 posts, RR: 6
Reply 44, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 3659 times:
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Quoting timz (Reply 42):
When?
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 43):
I'm not aware that HP ever did OAK-SEA either. UA tried it around 1994 with that Shuttle by United service with 737-300s, and then later dropped it.

I want to say late 1980's.


User currently offlinereality From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 514 posts, RR: 0
Reply 45, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3562 times:

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 34):
I had heard that the monorail between OAK and the McArthur Station (I think that's right) will have a separate fare

The BART OAK Connector goes from Coliseum Station to OAK. There won't be a separate fare. You can use your BART ticket to exit. It will cost about $5 or $6 more to go to OAK than to Coliseum, just like it cost $5 or $6 more to exit at SFO compared to the adjacent BART stations. It is scheduled to open sometime in 2014.


User currently offlineluckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 2234 posts, RR: 0
Reply 46, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3462 times:

Quoting redzeppelin (Reply 29):
As I read this, it strikes me that DL is also the only "legacy" carrier serving MDW. I think a lot of the arguments presented here to support OAK service can also be used to explain continued MDW service.

Different kettle of fish. Delta is now the only *legacy* that doesn't have a hub in Chicago.


User currently offlinemodesto2 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2819 posts, RR: 5
Reply 47, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3373 times:

Quoting reality (Reply 45):
The BART OAK Connector goes from Coliseum Station to OAK. There won't be a separate fare. You can use your BART ticket to exit. It will cost about $5 or $6 more to go to OAK than to Coliseum, just like it cost $5 or $6 more to exit at SFO compared to the adjacent BART stations. It is scheduled to open sometime in 2014.

Even after the completion of the OAK connector, I'll still prefer BART's direct connection to SFO. The OAK connector still requires a transfer and additional fare. I much prefer the seamless nature of BART's SFO service, even as an East Bay resident.


User currently offlineytib From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 578 posts, RR: 1
Reply 48, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3354 times:

Quoting reality (Reply 45):
The BART OAK Connector goes from Coliseum Station to OAK. There won't be a separate fare. You can use your BART ticket to exit. It will cost about $5 or $6 more to go to OAK than to Coliseum, just like it cost $5 or $6 more to exit at SFO compared to the adjacent BART stations. It is scheduled to open sometime in 2014.

Correct, It will be an addon fee to take the monorail when it opens just like it is now on AirBart.

Currently Powell Street (near Union Square) to
SFO is $8.25
San Bruno is $3.95 (the stop prior to SFO)

Coliseum/Oakland Airport is $3.85 (AirBart adds another $3)


User currently offlinerickabone From United States of America, joined May 2006, 130 posts, RR: 0
Reply 49, posted (1 year 1 month 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 3256 times:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 14):
One other possibilty, though I doubt it is justified: an alternate to SFO with their own staff to handle the irregular ops for the times when SFO is socked in.

I know it would be a bit of a logistical/engineering headache, but I always thought it would be awesome to have post-security ferry service between OAK and SFO... Could come in especially handy when there are significant delays at SFO that warrant diverts to OAK. Maybe funded as a joint venture between UAL and SWA? I know it's a pipe dream, but it would be cool.


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10649 posts, RR: 14
Reply 50, posted (1 year 1 month 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2979 times:

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 3):

Actually, right after deregulation, OAK was one of the expansion cities in the west, with service to ATL.

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 18):
DL's OAK-SLC service is a hold-over from the WA days. After the merger, DL added MD-88 service to DFW. The DFW service was discontinued when DL dehubbed DFW.

As mentioned, DL had OAK-ATL service starting after deregulation.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineolddominion727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 395 posts, RR: 0
Reply 51, posted (1 year 1 month 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2966 times:

I don't see the 2nd daily from SJC-ATL in the spring. Still show's the red-eye

User currently offlineolddominion727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 395 posts, RR: 0
Reply 52, posted (1 year 1 month 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2958 times:

carriers have really tried to make OAK work. AA flew OAK-DFW, LAX, BUR, ORD, JFK all at different times during their stay in OAK. Before anyone says they didn't fly to BUR or LAX from OAK... I know they did right after taking over AirCal. It was opt'd by AE on Convair 360's

UA has tried as well...

OAK-SEA
OAK-PDX
OAK-LAX
OAK-ORD
OAK-IAD
OAK-DEN
OAK-ONT
OAK-BUR
OAK-HNL

UA was pretty extensive for a while.


User currently offlineAlsatian From France, joined May 2005, 439 posts, RR: 0
Reply 53, posted (1 year 1 month 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2954 times:

Quoting olddominion727 (Reply 51):
I don't see the 2nd daily from SJC-ATL in the spring. Still show's the red-eye

DL 1583 SJC 1150 - 1919 ATL 738 Dx3
DL 1684 SJC 2235 - 0604+1 ATL 738 D

DL 1583 ATL 0845 - 1102 SJC 738 Dx3
DL 1684 ATL 1920 - 2137 SJC 738 D



Ok I am French but I am not on strike
User currently offlinetimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6902 posts, RR: 7
Reply 54, posted (1 year 1 month 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2919 times:

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 44):
I want to say late 1980's.

Turns out HP's OAK-SEA and OAK-YYC ended in 1988. Didn't find any HP nonstops OAK-PDX.


User currently offlinewedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5950 posts, RR: 6
Reply 55, posted (1 year 1 month 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2914 times:
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Quoting luckyone (Reply 46):
Delta is now the only *legacy* that doesn't have a hub in Chicago

AS doesn't have a hub at ORD.

Quoting olddominion727 (Reply 52):
Before anyone says they didn't fly to BUR or LAX from OAK... I know they did right after taking over AirCal. It was opt'd by AE on Convair 360's

Yes they did. The Convairs were 580s. They flew to RNO and BUR. AE also tried SBP and SBA using metros.


User currently offlinen471wn From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1601 posts, RR: 2
Reply 56, posted (1 year 1 month 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2900 times:
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Quoting olddominion727 (Reply 52):
carriers have really tried to make OAK work. AA flew OAK-DFW, LAX, BUR, ORD, JFK all at different times during their stay in OAK

When American, United and Continental pulled out they admitted the problem was not profitability but rather the low number of flights which made it difficult logistically.


User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3454 posts, RR: 5
Reply 57, posted (1 year 1 month 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 2672 times:

Quoting olddominion727 (Reply 52):
OAK-SEA
OAK-PDX
OAK-LAX
OAK-ORD
OAK-IAD
OAK-DEN
OAK-ONT
OAK-BUR
OAK-HNL

UA was pretty extensive for a while.

UA did a lot of maintenance at OAK, not sure all the A/C types, but I know 747s were serviced there at one time.



AA AC AQ AS BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OO OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN
User currently onlinelegacyins From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 58, posted (1 year 1 month 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 2657 times:

Quoting n471wn (Reply 56):
When American, United and Continental pulled out they admitted the problem was not profitability but rather the low number of flights which made it difficult logistically.

Are you sure? This what they said when they ended service:

United:

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/201...ding-service-from-oakland-airport/

American:

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/articl...to-pull-out-of-Oakland-3215713.php

Continental:

http://www.sfgate.com/business/artic...end-flights-to-Oakland-3209944.php



John@SFO
User currently offlinemodesto2 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2819 posts, RR: 5
Reply 59, posted (1 year 1 month 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2453 times:

Quoting n471wn (Reply 56):
When American, United and Continental pulled out they admitted the problem was not profitability but rather the low number of flights which made it difficult logistically.

I could understand how the few number of flights makes it challenging to turn a profit, but I don't understand the logistics issue. With CO, the aircraft would depart IAH and turn on itself, so there weren't any complicated issues with aircraft routing. However, I do understand that it could be expensive to keep a staff and rent gate space and ticket counters for just three flights per day. In the end, everything points to profitability. I was sad to see CO leave OAK as I used their IAH flights many times. I also remember their EWROAK service in the early 2000s.


User currently offlineluckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 2234 posts, RR: 0
Reply 60, posted (1 year 1 month 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2439 times:

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 55):
AS doesn't have a hub at ORD.
AS is not a legacy. They do not have a comprehensive network.

[Edited 2013-11-15 09:18:58]

User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5594 posts, RR: 12
Reply 61, posted (1 year 1 month 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2432 times:

Quoting olddominion727 (Reply 52):
UA has tried as well...

I believe UA also flew OAK-SAN as a Shuttle by United route for a time -- mid-90s -- along with SMF-SAN. (I KNOW they flew between SMF and SAN; OAK-SAN I'm pretty sure.)

They were taking a stab at the WN domination of intra-California... and, of course, gave up fairly quickly.

bb


User currently offlineDesertAir From Mexico, joined Jan 2006, 1479 posts, RR: 0
Reply 62, posted (1 year 1 month 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2289 times:

When Delta still had its DFW hub, they flew two or three times a day. I recall waiting at the gate (long past) for a friend to arrive.

User currently offlineDesertAir From Mexico, joined Jan 2006, 1479 posts, RR: 0
Reply 63, posted (1 year 1 month 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2286 times:

When Delta still had its DFW hub, they flew two or three times a day. I recall waiting at the gate (long past) for a friend to arrive.

User currently offlinebjorn14 From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 3676 posts, RR: 2
Reply 64, posted (1 year 1 month 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2242 times:

What are WN's pax numbers at OAK? How dominan t are they? They were willing to put the number of flights in OAK to make it profitable.


"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
User currently offlineMIflyer12 From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 1230 posts, RR: 0
Reply 65, posted (1 year 1 month 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2212 times:

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 64):
What are WN's pax numbers at OAK? How dominan t are they? They were willing to put the number of flights in OAK to make it profitable.

Southwest carries ~70% of OAK's domestic traffic, and there isn't a great deal of international traffic. Total domestic passenger count is 4.7 million arrivals.

OAK&Airport_Name=Oakland,%20CA:%20Metropolitan%20Oakland%20International&carrier=FACTS" target="_blank">http://www.transtats.bts.gov/airport...land%20International&carrier=FACTS

This represents operating carriers and does not aggregate DL Connection carriers into Delta.


User currently onlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7767 posts, RR: 27
Reply 66, posted (1 year 1 month 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2122 times:

The primary reason that DL has been able to make OAK work is because of SLC.

User currently offlinerickabone From United States of America, joined May 2006, 130 posts, RR: 0
Reply 67, posted (1 year 1 month 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 1889 times:

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 66):
The primary reason that DL has been able to make OAK work is because of SLC.

Not that it has anything to do with it, but Oakland for a long time had the 2nd biggest Mormon temple behind Salt Lake City.    


User currently offlinen471wn From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1601 posts, RR: 2
Reply 68, posted (1 year 1 month 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 1751 times:
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Quoting rickabone (Reply 67):
Not that it has anything to do with it, but Oakland for a long time had the 2nd biggest Mormon temple behind Salt Lake City.

As Mormon I can tell you that is not right--many larger than Oakland including San Diego and Washington D.C.


User currently offlinerickabone From United States of America, joined May 2006, 130 posts, RR: 0
Reply 69, posted (1 year 1 month 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1564 times:

Quoting n471wn (Reply 68):

As Mormon I can tell you that is not right--many larger than Oakland including San Diego and Washington D.C.

That's why I said "for a long time" it was... I know it isn't any longer, but it was the 2nd largest for a long time.


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