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Alitalia In Cash Crisis - Part 2  
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25834 posts, RR: 50
Posted (11 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 19134 times:

Since our first thread ( Alitalia In Cash Crisis (by LAXintl Sep 3 2013 in Civil Aviation) ) has gotten very long lets continue with a new one here.

Latest news:

o AFKL has taken a €119mil impairment charge for its 25% holdings in AZ.
o AZ board meeting scheduled on Wednesday Nov 13th. Rumored announcement of staff cuts, and discuss recapitalization
o Thursday Nov. 14th deadline for needed €300mil recapitalization.
o AFKL says its unwilling to invest further in AZ unless "strict industrial, social and financial conditions” are agreed to.

=


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
111 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinemercure1 From French Polynesia, joined Jul 2008, 1634 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (11 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 19071 times:

Alitalia says it looking at a " South-East Asian" partner if Air France backs out.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/alital...k-asian-partner-air-120436016.html

I dont know what their definition of SE Asia is, but I believe common definition is areas like Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore, Thailand, Vietnam etc.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9549 posts, RR: 31
Reply 2, posted (11 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 18822 times:

That's a good Definition for the area.

The problem with a white knight from there is, they cannot pump money endlessly simply because AZ would lose it's citizenship that way. Cash loans would qualify as equity.

Air Cargo Germany got it's AOP revoked that way.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6500 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (11 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 18664 times:

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 1):
I dont know what their definition of SE Asia is, but I believe common definition is areas like Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore, Thailand, Vietnam etc.


Why on earth would an airline from any of those countries want to invest in Alitalia


User currently offlinezkeye From New Zealand, joined May 2005, 243 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (11 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 18453 times:

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 3):
Why on earth would an airline from any of those countries want to invest in Alitalia

You could also ask why on earth would anyone from anywhere at all would want to invest in Alitalia?



Bring out the gimp
User currently offlinemiaintl From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 1052 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 18157 times:

I wonder why AZ cannot compete efficiently against low-cost carriers, whilst other Euro heavies can? Is it because AZ has a weak insufficient hub?

User currently onlineGCT64 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2007, 1416 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 17941 times:

The board meeting started two hours ago, Reuters reckon:

AFKL plays hardball: no structural changes, no cash, but actually they would like to do a deal
The unions are promising a ""very, very hard" response to job cuts (rather impedes AFKL's aspirations)
The board are likely to avoid the confrontation by putting of any decision and extending the funding deadline (as if AFKL are going to change their mind just because more time passes?)
No one seems to give much credence to the "asian partner"

My guess ... eventually there is a fudge: some cuts, some AFKL money, not much confrontation (token strike), not much political fallout ... and we are back here again soon for "Alitalia In Cash Crisis - Part 145"   

[Edited 2013-11-13 11:12:03]


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User currently offlinemercure1 From French Polynesia, joined Jul 2008, 1634 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 17702 times:

Media says following;

** Board approved proposed management business plan revision which calls for job cuts (maybe 2000), and further mediumhaul fleet reduction but the AFKL representatives vote against plan.
** Capital increase deadline moved to Nov.27th.
** Two Italian banks already commit to providing €130mil of needed €300mil.
** AFKL must put in €75 million or have its 25% share holding drop to below 10%
** Italian post is apparent potential investor for €75 million. They have board meeting on Nov.20 to approve
** Italy transport minister say AZ has other partner options, and AFKL must either stay involved or get out of way.


User currently offlineNatflyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2013, 165 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 17588 times:

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 7):

Looks pretty desperate, because the Italian government can't pump more money into Alitalia directly, to make the Italian Post a "shareholder".

And on the story goes...


User currently offlineAzure From France, joined Dec 2012, 629 posts, RR: 16
Reply 9, posted (11 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 17348 times:

It was expected but it is now confirmed. In a press-release, AFKL announces it will not subscribe to the capital increase.

Ironically the press release is titled : Air France-KLM confirms its commitment to remain a partner of Alitalia

Consequently AFKL stake in AZ will drop to circa 10%. AFKL will loose it veto power over potential new investors, although I doubt there are any interested despite the declarations of the Italian government...

The attitude of the latter has been highly counter-productive. Political interference in a private company can only result in discouraging investors, including the top shareholder.

Eventually AZ will run out of cash again and will be placed under special administration. This might be the only way to solve AZ chore issue, ie its debt.




Quoting bobnwa (Reply 3):
Why on earth would an airline from any of those countries want to invest in Alitalia

KE has invested in CZ. And Italy is a much larger market than the Czech Republic !
However I do not expect SQ, MH, TG or any airline invest a cent in AZ without imposing the same conditions as AFKL...




Quoting miaintl (Reply 5):
I wonder why AZ cannot compete efficiently against low-cost carriers, whilst other Euro heavies can? Is it because AZ has a weak insufficient hub?

AZ is not a "heavy", it is half the size of KL alone. Its cost base is too high compared with the LCCs, and it does not have the financial resources to set up its own LCC, unlike LH with Germanwings or AFKL with Transavia. Btw, AFKL and the LH group are not doing quite well on their regional market...



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things - A. de Saint Exupery
User currently offlinemiaintl From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 1052 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (11 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 17205 times:

I wonder if had AZ never left its MXP hub for Rome in 2008, would it be facing the crisis it is facing today. Because with a weak hub AZ has nothing to offer. If LIN closed at MXP had remained AZ hub then things would be fine today. I know that that is an over simplistic analysis, but it seems to be the gist of the problem. I am glad this article agrees with me.
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25834 posts, RR: 50
Reply 11, posted (11 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 16565 times:

Unions say AZ will cut approx 2,500 jobs including pilots, cabin and ground staff

Company has meeting scheduled for Thursday with unions.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/alitalia-cut-2-500-2-190202264.html

=



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinereadytotaxi From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 3324 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (11 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 16544 times:

A "to big to fail" or a staggering corpse?  


you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
User currently offlinebennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7703 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (11 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 16420 times:

Any news yet on aircraft and routes to be chopped.

User currently offlineJimJupiter From Germany, joined Sep 2011, 252 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (11 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 16397 times:

What are those news?


One is born, one runs up bills, one dies.
User currently offlinebennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7703 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (11 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 15921 times:

http://www.ch-aviation.ch/portal/new...ad-for-help-with-saving-alitalia#!

"Alitalia (AZ, Rome Fiumicino) has reportedly turned its attention back towards Etihad Airways (EY, Abu Dhabi Int'l) in the hopes of finding a strong potential investor. Italy's Teleborsa says Italian premier, Enrico Letta, has dispatched an envoy to Abu Dhabi, under the guise of endorsing Dubai's candidacy for Expo 2020, to resume negotiations with Etihad. The airline's grapevine speaks of a potential 2'500 job cuts of which 1'000 would come from contract non-renewals while the other 1'500 would be straight firings. The bad news continues to roll in for the ailing Italian national carrier after Antitrust regulators fined it EUR120'000 for "unfair business practices."

It seems as if they are going to try to involve Etihad.

However, my understanding is that normal limits on non EU ownership would apply.

Also, doubtless Etihad will insist on cuts at AZ as well.

Promises to be interesting.


User currently offlineghost77 From Mexico, joined Mar 2000, 5224 posts, RR: 51
Reply 16, posted (11 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 15660 times:

If no cash is given on Nov 27th will AZ collapse?

Will the government let AZ die?

What are the other Italian carriers?

g77



Ricardo Morales - flyAPM - ¡No es que maneje rapido, solo estoy volando lento!
User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2875 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (11 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 15575 times:

Quoting ghost77 (Reply 16):
If no cash is given on Nov 27th will AZ collapse?

Come on, I have an BCN-FCO flight on AZ booked for Nov. 28th!



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offlineBurchfiel From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 383 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (11 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 15392 times:

The Pope uses AZ more than any other airline -- if Alitalia fails what is he going to do? Perhaps travel on Ryanair, since he's trying to make the Papacy a simpler, less ornate institution.

User currently offlinelaca773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 4050 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (11 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 15278 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Perhaps at this point, AZ needs to file bankruptcy the way SR did. They came back as LX, and have been hanging in there. It sounds like the unions and employee groups are not open to changes, and survival wage cuts.
To survive, they need to start over from the ground up. I can see AFKL stepping in, and evolve the management team to get them moving in the right direction.


User currently offlinelollomz From Italy, joined Sep 2005, 284 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (11 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 15223 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Have you ever seen the Alitalia HQ in Rome? I think it's bigger than the one of AA. Why a can of coke cost to AF/KLM 2 euros and 5 to AZ? Why the stop to fly the planes they own and fly the planes they lease? Why someone would buy an airline Made to loose money and is not indipendent by politic games??? I'm so tired to see this every day. I really hope one day someone will not tolerate this behaviour anymore!!!

User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5166 posts, RR: 21
Reply 21, posted (11 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 15021 times:

Quoting laca773 (Reply 19):


Perhaps at this point, AZ needs to file bankruptcy the way SR did. They came back as LX, and have been hanging in there.

Not that simple in the case of SR/LX. AZ would need to liquidate while Air One might emerge as the new "Italiana" or something along those lines. IF there is enough separation between AZ and Air One at this point. I admit I'm not really up on the AZ/Air One corporate structure. If Air One is still a separate legal entity it "might work". Of course they'll be riots in the streets but.....

And for the record SR did not come back, a new national carrier emerged using the LX certificate and structure. Not sure if that could happen the same way in Italy. Perhaps someone with more knowledge on Italian corporate law could enlighten us.



Next Up: STL-EWR-STL for my first mileage run!
User currently offlineAzure From France, joined Dec 2012, 629 posts, RR: 16
Reply 22, posted (11 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 14866 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 11):
Unions say AZ will cut approx 2,500 jobs including pilots, cabin and ground staff

So the Italians authorities did their utmost to discourage AFKL to takeover AZ out of fear it would cut jobs. They are now left without an international partner (and struggling to find one) but they still have to cut jobs. Very successful move.



Quoting bennett123 (Reply 15):
It seems as if they are going to try to involve Etihad.

However, my understanding is that normal limits on non EU ownership would apply.

Also, doubtless Etihad will insist on cuts at AZ as well.


   So far EY has remained silent since its acquisition of Darwin Airlines.
In fact the Italian government and AZ want the cash but also want to keep control of the airline. Unsolvable equation.



Quoting ghost77 (Reply 16):
If no cash is given on Nov 27th will AZ collapse?

Will the government let AZ die?

AZ has secured only € 130 Mi so far (out of the € 300 Mi it seeks to obtain).
Meanwhile AZ has started to sell its real estate, surely not a good sign.
If it fails to get the € 300 Mi by Nov 27th, its chances of survival are limited to a couple of months.
The main issue is the abysmal debt of AZ. Even if the airline was operationally profitable it could not pay back the interests of the loans.
I can think of 2 scenarios :
- AZ debt is restructured with the help of the Italian government. It would make it more appealing for an investor. AFKL (or EY) could come back under the condition it is assured to get the full control of the airline (with further job cuts).
- The Italian government does not write off the debt and AZ will die, sooner rather than later. I know they are working at building a stand-alone business model for the airline. Good luck to them !



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things - A. de Saint Exupery
User currently offlinebennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7703 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (11 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 14794 times:

What real estate have they sold?.

Perhaps it just wasn't required.


User currently offlineAzure From France, joined Dec 2012, 629 posts, RR: 16
Reply 24, posted (11 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 14723 times:

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 23):
What real estate have they sold?.

Perhaps it just wasn't required.

Perhaps.
Source (in French) : http://www.aerobuzz.fr/spip.php?article4402

Quote:
The fact remains that Alitalia, concerned about its immediate financial difficulties, is seeking by all means to find cash. It has chosen to sell part of its real estate, various buildings estimated sixty million euros. This choice has not been announced publicly, but appears in the classifieds of the latest issue of U.S. magazine Aviation Week. Offers must be submitted no later than March 21. That speaks volumes about the seriousness of the situation but also indicates Alitalia hopes to be still alive at the end of winter.



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things - A. de Saint Exupery
25 lollomz : Air One is part of AZ.....
26 ghost77 : Thanks for the info! Selling real state as last resort.. ok, 60M more... could work!!! But after this...? There won't be more properties! What a sad
27 miaintl : I wonder if AZ goes bankrupt, whether a startup airline will follow? You know kind of like the SR/LX case.
28 GCT64 : I'm not at all sure anyone in Italy will get the chance to fill the AZ void: VY (aka IAG) has announced major expansion at FCO from S14: 8 aircraft b
29 Post contains links Azure : The void after the possible bankruptcy of AZ would be filled by the LCCs on short-haul. We are just seeing the beginnings. I am not sure whether thes
30 senatorflyer : So the deadline was yesterday but so far we have not heard anything... Good or bad in your opinion?
31 Post contains images Azure : Well, good or bad news, it all depends on your expectations More seriously, AZ said it would release the result of the cash call this morning. The ab
32 Post contains links senatorflyer : There we go. Does not sound too good I think... http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/1.../28/alitalia-idUKL5N0JD31G20131128
33 Post contains images DDR : This is very true. Soon there will be no markets left for AZ The other carriers are like sharks and they have smelled the blood in the water. I belie
34 Post contains images Azure : I think so too. (thanks for the link) - AZ secured only € 173 Mi (when it planned on € 300 Mi) - The cash call will continue with a second phase.
35 Post contains links viasa : Another report about Alitalia's fleet. They were down by nearly 20%: http://www.ch-aviation.ch/portal/new...as-it-parks-nearly-20-of-its-fleet The act
36 OOer : Alitalia is trying to shrink to profitability and making the worst possible business decisions (like leaving MXP for FCO) while also raking up more an
37 Aquila3 : News (ANSA) say that tomorrow the new business plan will be presenteted. It will be hard to swallow, 1900 layoffs, between them 280 pilots and 350 F.A
38 bennett123 : Given that most aircraft have about 2 FA per pilot, this does not seem to stack up.
39 CPHFF : Reading through the posts, there seem to be a lot of users on here that believe that the biggest part of AZ's problem is that they didn't keep and exp
40 UALWN : I have flown a few segments with AZ in the last couple of months and I cannot agree. Flight experience and customer service were OK, in line with mos
41 CPHFF : My Italian colleagues and many other Italians fly AZ because of loyalty and "National Pride", just like a lot of Germans prefer Luftwaffe...........
42 Post contains links art : "Elle a en effet levé les 225 millions nécesaires pour que la Poste italienne mettre de son côté 75 millions d’euros, selon une source anonyme c
43 PanHAM : with a market share of just about 35% that would mean something like 2/3rds of Germans using air Services have gone AWOL! So much to nationalism.
44 UALWN : Really? Do you think that Italians would stay loyal to a dismal airline?
45 Post contains images JimJupiter : Actually not that many, if you look closely.
46 Post contains links bennett123 : www.ch-aviation.ch is reporting an investment of e15M by Antonio Percassi, through his company Odissea Holdings. AZ seem to be getting a lot of (mostl
47 tyler81190 : Is it a bad sign when your joint venture partners/alliance members (ex... DL, VS, KE etc) do not even think about offering to help? Have most of SkyTe
48 art : It's a mystery to me why AZ would attract any funds from serious investors. As I understand things the capital secured will stop AZ going bust in the
49 Post contains links Azure : This seems to be confirmed (subject to a formal announcement by AZ). However the cash call saga has shown the difficulties for AZ to attract investor
50 Aesma : Well the other options are what is happening in some European countries, asking for more work for the same salary (not helpful if you don't have more
51 art : Then its moves to return the airline to profitability won't return it to profitability.
52 Post contains links Wolbo : Apparently Etihad intends to buy a 49% stake in Alitalia and will take a decision before Christmas. http://gulfbusiness.com/2013/12/etihad-mulls-inves
53 Azure : AZ will likely "freeze" or decrease the wages, but this will not be enough to "return" to a profitability it has known only once in the past ten year
54 PanHAM : ....and shape them up "Gulf style" . Now, that will be fun to watch. Can it be that EY is going with open eyes into the same trap SR fell into? I tho
55 peterinlisbon : Maybe us anetters should get together and buy Alitalia. We could run our board meetings online, and take suggestions from the public like "let's keep
56 Post contains links 777 : Apparently EY is running a due diligence of AZ that should end in the next days. The green/red light related to their entrance in AZ should come by Ch
57 art : I would think that the management decision to maintain staff at current levels will give EY something to peruse until after Christmas.
58 Post contains links Amsterdam : Dutch aviation news reports Etihad will invest 300 million € in Alitalia http://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nl-NL...teert_300_miljoen_euro_in_Alitalia
59 Post contains links KarelXWB : Story in English: Alitalia is close to getting a capital injection of about 300 million euros ($413 million) from Etihad Airways, three people famili
60 Post contains links Azure : Also reported by Bloomberg : Alitalia Said to Gain $413 Million Etihad Capital Backing But even the Italian press is skeptical : http://www.lastampa.i
61 mercure1 : So what is plan now that it looks like Etihad puts money into AZ? It seems silly to simply take money and continue operations in similar fashion and c
62 Post contains links Azure : It is too early to state that EY puts money into AZ. We should know by Tuesday, Dec. 24. EY has committed to give an answer before Christmas. The off
63 mercure1 : So Christmas come and go. Did Alitalia get a present from Etihad? Seems media and airlines are quiet. Did EY decide not to pursue strategic contributi
64 Post contains links Azure : Dear Mercure1, the latest news : - EY CEO James Hogan will attend a press conference in Zürich on Thursday, Jan. 16th, 2014. He will speak about his
65 art : This is not a normal business where the aim is to run the business on sensible lines. This is Alitalia! This is not a normal business where the aim i
66 Homobohemicus : Now the news calls that EY will still take its time until a decision is made. As much as Alitalia and the Italian market is quite big, How much money
67 Post contains links LAXintl : Alitalia has its hands open again, and now asking for banks to further extend a €200mil loan from October for an additional €50mil to help counter
68 art : Says: "The airline raised 300 million euros in an emergency capital increase last month, which analysts said would keep it flying for the next six mo
69 Post contains images KD5MDK : So they can fly 7 months
70 Homobohemicus : Would that be an indication that they are not sure or not optimistic of EY making a decision. EY is looking into AZ's books and I am certain they will
71 PanHAM : A bottomless pit is a bonanza in comparison with AZ. The only way someone would even consider to invest would be a clean sheet Company, without debt,
72 IndianicWorld : Just why EY would even bother with AZ baffles me. Yes, it sits in a big market (Italy), but the airline just can't compete with its current cost base.
73 GCT64 : Why anyone (although those closely associated with the Italian Government might well not operate logically) is loaning AZ money baffles me. Money shou
74 Azure : AZ has already burnt the cash from the recent capital increase on debt arrears with suppliers such as ENI (fuel). Last autumn, ENI threatened to stop
75 LAXintl : Its not debt. Its ongoing operating losses. Remember in 2008-2009, AZ got a fresh start a part of its reorganization with €625 million in debt bein
76 Azure : LAXintl my point is that in the prospect of a takeover, the debt is the main issue. All the rest can be worked on by a larger operator, costs and reve
77 mercure1 : I think that while Italy offer large home market but with inherit already more lower yield focus of Italian travel plus massive LCC invasion pressure
78 Azure : AFKL had a real industrial project for AZ, whose future, brand, and identity would have been guaranteed within an AFKLAZ group. AZ would have lost it
79 Post contains links LAXintl : Etihad CEO says no rush on AZ decision. No announcement is imminent. http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...had-alitalia-idUSBREA0C0K920140113 =
80 Post contains links and images LAXintl : Alitalia now says it can whip itself in shape with any job losses... While the company still needs €128 million in labor cost savings it will seek t
81 bennett123 : Is this "State sponsored Social Security Scheme" another form of state aid. Also these "Solidarity Contracts" sound like Part Time working. I am not c
82 TPA0822 : I'll be on a FCO-LHR routing in July, and we're not allowed to book AZ. I wonder how many thousands of people are avoiding the airline because it wil
83 DDR : I agree with this premise. They also need to cut back on long haul flying and have the remaining long haul all center on Milan. They could create a s
84 Post contains links Alsatian : Another crisis meeting took place today according to Today.it : In Italian : Alitalia, riunione urgente e segreta al ministero: sul tavolo il fallimen
85 tyler81190 : Maybe it means Etihad looked at the books and decided to stop smoking whatever it was they were smoking, and walked away?
86 GCT64 : According to Reuters today (Sun 2 Feb), Etihad and Alitalia are "in the final phase of a due diligence process that may result in an investment by the
87 Homobohemicus : I would hate for any airline to go belly up, but Alitalia needs it to be a better company and stop this painful painful and mainly embarrassing theate
88 Post contains images PanHAM : In simple words, the EY CEO would, if he goes ahead with the purchase of 40% of AZ, by far exceed the unlimited funds the Abu Dhabi government gave hi
89 Post contains links mercure1 : Now Etihad says its will make a firm decision one way or other over AZ investment in 30-days. Etihad Sets 30-Day Deadline to Decide on Alitalia Invest
90 LAXintl : Somehow I know this drama is still a long way from being resolved. Even if EY does invest, surely there will be lots of plot twist along the way as no
91 Post contains links Azure : I've read Today's Reuters and Bloomberg's Articles. I wanted to learn more and looked for the original PR by Etihad : for sure It confirms EY's intere
92 OOer : If Etihad does indeed buy up 40% of Alitalia will that mean it will probably leave SkyTeam?
93 Aesma : Well with 40% they can't control anything, that's precisely why the laws are made that way.
94 mercure1 : I think issue for EY decision will be two fold; 1) Will AZ / Italian government / unions agree to whatever terms EY deem necessary to proceed with inv
95 LAXintl : Its almost a leap of fate for EY. While they provide the money, with only 40% ownership they are not fully in charge steering the ship. Anything could
96 AirAfreak : In addition to selling real estate, could Alitalia not sell a few of it's Heathrow slots to Virgin Atlantic or DELTA? This would strengthen DL/VS pres
97 seahawk : The actual control of AZ will not be in the hands of EY. Many have tried to make AZ work again from Air One to AF/KLM, but neither was able to win aga
98 art : As Mercure1 says above, one problem is that no-one wants to accept reality. AZ is a broken business. Its employees can continue to ignore reality but
99 par13del : Well, the question is can they give them a free hand legally. I can see everyone saying they have a free hand, putting it down on paper, getting and
100 PanHAM : Definately NO. EY, given a "free Hand" would be de facto Controlling AZ despite they control only 49,9% of the voting stock . Now, the Italian govern
101 VV701 : They have been doing this over the years. Back in Summer 2004 AZ operated 180 weekly LHR slots. Over ten years this number had reduced to the 82 week
102 art : I take the point that a minority shareholder cannot legally control a company. However if I (as the majority shareholder in a company) go to a bank w
103 Post contains images PanHAM : Well, the bank is in a much better Position than a shareholder. A shareholder is at full risk to lose his Investment, yet he is bound by rules and reg
104 Post contains images art : In that case what does it matter if AZ continues just as it is? Forget about awkward foreign investors like EY who want things to change as a conditi
105 Post contains links and images VV701 : Yes, but I am not at all sure that there is any rule or regulation that prevents any individual or organisation with a substantial minority share hol
106 PanHAM : If EY buys 49,9% of AZ , any other foreign shareholder must drop out, better sell their Shares to EY, while the Italian stateholdings or the cronies
107 VV701 : No. The EU is a single market. I think in the case of both LH and AZ you are confusing "foreign" with "non-EU". If you were to be right IAG, a Spanis
108 Aesma : Do you mean mafiosis ?
109 Post contains images mercure1 : Very old understanding. Here is current AZ ownership per AZ investor website. AFKL is down to mere 7.08% Maybe you don't recall LH had much trouble w
110 PanHAM : VV701 gave the answer already. ownership of OS and LX required some complicated structures to Keep the traffic rights for isntance in Russia. The sin
111 VV701 : It would be invidious to go into such detail in this thread. Just as Lufthansa Group had to play some clever cards to allow BD, LX and OS to continue
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Colgan Dash 8 Crash In Buffalo, NY - Part 2 posted Thu Feb 12 2009 23:29:06 by HB-IWC