Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Delta Announces Love Field Expansion Plans  
User currently offlineseatback From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 767 posts, RR: 0
Posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 24863 times:

Boy, the PR team in Atlanta has been busy this week.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/delta-...pansion-dallas-love-140000850.html

I believe Delta still has a lot of FF in the DFW area from the old hub days, this expansion may be a way to build on that foundation. However, if AA couldn't make a go of it, not sure how Delta thinks they will.

18 daily flights from two gates seems to be a lot. Especially when those flights are likely to be timed so close together.

223 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7591 posts, RR: 27
Reply 1, posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 24897 times:

Interesting:

DL is proposing:

DAL:
DTW
MSP
LGA
LAX
additional ATL flights

I would've figured we would potentially see DFW-LAX first.


User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7195 posts, RR: 13
Reply 2, posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 24800 times:

Quoting DTW.SCE" class="quote" target="_blank">PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 1):
Interesting:

DL is proposing:

DAL:
DTW
MSP
LGA
LAX
additional ATL flights

I would've figured we would potentially see DFW-LAX first.

Was there no SLC? That's highly interesting.


User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7195 posts, RR: 13
Reply 3, posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 24706 times:

Two more things...
1) expect a cut at DFW.
2) Thus begins what I've been saying is going to happen. Every airline that WN irritates by adding their hub from DAL will be trying to get into DAL's artificially tight gate inventory.


User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11642 posts, RR: 61
Reply 4, posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 24686 times:

Man are they working overtime trying desperately to get in on the AA/US divestitures. We'll see how far they get. With specific respect to DAL, they're obviously hoping to get an asymmetric advantage over AA in the DFW local market by being able to offer nonstop flights in core AA markets (LGA, LAX) from DAL as opposed to DFW. We'll see what low-fare competitors - like B6, which has lobbied for DAL access in the past - have to say about that.

User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23034 posts, RR: 20
Reply 5, posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 24674 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 2):
Was there no SLC? That's highly interesting.

What does it gain them that LAX doesn't?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8550 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 24622 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 4):
Man are they working overtime trying desperately to get in on the AA/US divestitures.

They are smart enough to have known all year that this would be happening.


User currently offlineseatback From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 767 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 24450 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 4):
Man are they working overtime trying desperately to get in on the AA/US divestitures. We'll see how far they get. With specific respect to DAL, they're obviously hoping to get an asymmetric advantage over AA in the DFW local market by being able to offer nonstop flights in core AA markets (LGA, LAX) from DAL as opposed to DFW. We'll see what low-fare competitors - like B6, which has lobbied for DAL access in the past - have to say about that.

I guess we'll see soon from AA:

LAX-ATL
LAX-MSP
LAX-DTW

As a side note, AA would be smart to "fund" some of the research behind developing a second Atlanta airport.  


User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11642 posts, RR: 61
Reply 8, posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 24372 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 6):
They are smart enough to have known all year that this would be happening.

True, but I doubt that's got much to do with the behavior we're seeing from Delta. I think the bigger issue is that statements from the DOJ and the airlines seem to imply that Delta (and United) "need not apply" for the divested assets.

Quoting seatback (Reply 7):
I guess we'll see soon from AA:

LAX-ATL
LAX-MSP
LAX-DTW

It will be interested to see if AA "retaliates" at all, and if so, how. I would think LAX-ATL and potentially upgauging LGA-ATL to mainline (freeing up some soon-to-be-divested LGA slots in the process  ) might be to plausible ones. I still don't think AA seems all that worried about DAL, anyway, though - with or without DAL trying to shift DFW service there.


User currently offlineWesternA318 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 5685 posts, RR: 24
Reply 9, posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 24336 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 2):
Was there no SLC? That's highly interesting.
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 5):
What does it gain them that LAX doesn't?

A lot more connection opportunities than are currently available at LAX (without a double connection)/



Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
User currently offlinebjorn14 From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 3470 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 24154 times:

I assume rhese flts are after the WA expires or are they all RJ?


"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23034 posts, RR: 20
Reply 11, posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 24154 times:

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 9):
A lot more connection opportunities than are currently available at LAX (without a double connection)

Certainly, but LAX is a much larger local market and, save for DEN, offers connections to the largest markets without a significant geographic disadvantage.

Quoting commavia (Reply 8):
I still don't think AA seems all that worried about DAL, anyway, though - with or without DAL trying to shift DFW service there.

Keep in mind that DL is the largest legacy by a fair amount at other secondary airports like MDW and HOU (indeed, the only legacy at MDW), so it's not unreasonable to think that, without gate restrictions, DL would be fairly large and reasonably successful at DAL.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinetimf From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 970 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 24040 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 10):
I assume rhese flts are after the WA expires or are they all RJ?

These changes are effective October 2014, so after the Wright Amendment.

In order for Delta to make this work, they have to expect to get control of both AA gates at DAL. I'm not sure if it's realistic to force them entirely out of the airport even though AA doesn't use them currently. I could see them taking control of one AA gate, but then they'd have to go after a WN gate for further expansion.


User currently onlineLoneStarMike From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 3827 posts, RR: 34
Reply 13, posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 24036 times:

This is the part of the press release that I don't understand:

Quote:
Delta will require access to gates at Love Field in order to operate its expanded schedule. Delta has asked the U.S. Department of Justice to allow it to bid on Love Field gates as part of the divestiture of airport assets under a proposed settlement agreement with American Airlines and US Airways.

None of the airlines "own" their gates at Love Field. WN, UA, & AA all have preferential-use leases. AA subleases its gates to Seaport and Delta.

If you read the agreement to end the Wright Amendment:

http://www.dallas-lovefield.com/pdf/dal_ResolveWrightAmendment.pdf

there were provisions that applied onlyto AA and WN that if either initiated flights at another airport within an 80-mile radius, they would have to give up some of their gate leases. The gates would revert back to Love Field and they would be made available to other carriers to lease.

So AA is giving up the gates it currently leases from Love Field. (not because they are initiating service at another airport within an 80-mile radius of Love Field, but as part of the divestiture related to the merger.) When Delta's press release says the want to "bid" on the gates, it makes it sound like they are wanting to buy them, but I don't think that is even possible. I would also hope that AA's gates are leased to another carrier on a first-come first-served basis and it looks like DL is first.

Why does Delta need permission from the DOJ to enter into a lease agreement with Love Field? That's the part I don't understand.

LoneStarMike


User currently onlinequestions From Australia, joined Sep 2011, 783 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 23944 times:

Quoting DTW.SCE" class="quote" target="_blank">PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 1):
DL is proposing:

DAL:
DTW
MSP
LGA
LAX
additional ATL flights

I would've figured we would potentially see DFW-LAX first.

Why not SEA?


User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2194 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 23857 times:

Quoting LoneStarMike (Reply 13):
Why does Delta need permission from the DOJ to enter into a lease agreement with Love Field? That's the part I don't understand.

Because the DOJ is forcing the divestiture as part of the merger agreement and they want to make sure the reason for the divestiture (to increase competition) is kept and no funny business is involved.


User currently onlineLoneStarMike From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 3827 posts, RR: 34
Reply 16, posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 23699 times:

Quoting Polot (Reply 15):
Because the DOJ is forcing the divestiture as part of the merger agreement and they want to make sure the reason for the divestiture (to increase competition) is kept and no funny business is involved.

This is what the Dallas Morning News had to say about it.

Delta Air Lines wants gates at Dallas Love Field

Quote:
Delta Air Lines said Wednesday that it would like to acquire the two gates at Dallas Love Field that American Airlines is giving up in a lawsuit settlement.

The problem is that the lead attorney for the U.S. Department of Justice in the lawsuit made clear that the DOJ wants the gates at seven airports and takeoff and landing slots to go to airlines other than Delta and other “legacy” carriers.

“We see the legacy carriers as part of the problem. We see low-cost carriers as a key part of the solution,” DOJ attorney Bill Baer said as he discussed the settlement. The deal would allow the American-US Airways merger to proceed.
OK, that's all well and good, but Love Field already has a low-cost carrier that accounts for 95% of the passengers. It seems like Love Field would be the one airport where the DOJ would want more legacy carriers.

LoneStarMike

[Edited 2013-11-14 07:57:34]

User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7195 posts, RR: 13
Reply 17, posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 23575 times:

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 9):
A lot more connection opportunities than are currently available at LAX (without a double connection)/
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 5):
Quoting enilria (Reply 2):
Was there no SLC? That's highly interesting.

What does it gain them that LAX doesn't?

That question is why it's highly interesting. At the point that you ask what does SLC offer a major spoke like DAL and the answer is NOTHING, you have to wonder if it will remain a hub long term. Also, WN will surely fly DAL-SLC.


User currently offlineRDH3E From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 1676 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 23519 times:

Quoting LoneStarMike (Reply 16):
OK, that's all well and good, but Love Field already has a low-cost carrier that accounts for 95% of the passengers. It seems like Love Field would be the one airport where the DOJ would want more legacy carriers.

I'd argue they they don't. WN is neither low-cost or low-fare, and they are now more of a network carrier than ever. LCC's now are NK, G4 (future F9) etc.


User currently offlineseatback From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 767 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 23431 times:

The entire Love Field situation is really jacked and should not be part of this settlement. Long term, I wonder how DAL is really going to work. You can't have proper competition from one airline that has 95 percent of the capacity and hides behind an artificial cap on any growth. B6, F9, NK, and DL all have the right to fly there.

It also goes to show how DAL was never really on AA's radar.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23034 posts, RR: 20
Reply 20, posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 23386 times:

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 18):
WN is neither low-cost or low-fare, and they are now more of a network carrier than ever.

Why do you say WN isn't low fare? How else do we explain the disparity in average fares on CMH/CVG-CHI or BNA/MEM-LAS?

Quoting enilria (Reply 17):
That question is why it's highly interesting. At the point that you ask what does SLC offer a major spoke like DAL and the answer is NOTHING, you have to wonder if it will remain a hub long term.

Maybe, but isn't DAL at least somewhat sui generis? It's a very well-served city that is located pretty far south, so SLC is more out of the way than it is for a lot of other DL stations.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently onlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5279 posts, RR: 25
Reply 21, posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 23285 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 17):
That question is why it's highly interesting. At the point that you ask what does SLC offer a major spoke like DAL and the answer is NOTHING, you have to wonder if it will remain a hub long term.

With all due respect, you are reading way too much into SLC not being part of this announcement. SLC still functions very well as an east-west connector and serves many intra-west routes that cannot be adequately served by other DL hubs. In recent years, SLC has also been a strong performer for DL and it's the only other really viable hub in the Mountain West beside DEN, so I really don't see it going anywhere.

Quoting enilria (Reply 17):
Also, WN will surely fly DAL-SLC.

I really doubt that. They will fly DEN-DAL and can easily connect you onto SLC from here. SLC has been stagnant for WN, especially since they opened up DEN. I don't see them adding much, if anything, from there.



Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlineLDVAviation From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 1069 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 22746 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 8):
It will be interested to see if AA "retaliates" at all, and if so, how. I would think LAX-ATL and potentially upgauging LGA-ATL to mainline (freeing up some soon-to-be-divested LGA slots in the process &nbsp  might be to plausible ones. I still don't think AA seems all that worried about DAL, anyway, though - with or without DAL trying to shift DFW service there.

This should be an interesting fight. As a result of the merger, AA becomes the largest carrier at LAX and gains a leading position on the ends of almost all of their transcon routes with the addition of hubs/focus cities at RDU, DCA, and BOS, while adding Philadelphia and Charlotte. With everything else in place, that's an enviable portfolio of business destinations from LA.

The increased traffic flows (east and west, particularly through Charlotte) will give AA quite the wherewithal to try some new things at LAX, where it will now have approximately 20% of the market and growing. With that position, it won't hurt to try some new things.

[Edited 2013-11-14 09:10:23]

User currently offlinesyncmaster From United States of America, joined Jul 2002, 2034 posts, RR: 10
Reply 23, posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 22695 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting seatback (Thread starter):

Boy, the PR team in Atlanta has been busy this week.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/delta-...pansion-dallas-love-140000850.html

I believe Delta still has a lot of FF in the DFW area from the old hub days, this expansion may be a way to build on that foundation. However, if AA couldn't make a go of it, not sure how Delta thinks they will.

18 daily flights from two gates seems to be a lot. Especially when those flights are likely to be timed so close together.


Am I the only one who thinks there may be more to this than Delta wanting access to DAL? Or even DCA for that matter? To me, it just seems like posturing for something bigger, but what, I do not know.


User currently offlineQ From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 229 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 22522 times:

Delta should bring 747-400 once first flight DAL-LAX. Delta used to fly 747-200 many years ago DAL-LAX and SFO.

Q


25 txkf2010 : Not a chance. Delta is the biggest employer in the state of Georgia so investing in another airport probably won't be something that "they allow" to
26 Mah4546 : This one is likely coming soon regardless.
27 TWA902fly : I think it has to be taken into account their lack of possible gates, and LAX - being a large business market, with LA-Dallas being one of DL's large
28 Alsatian : UA has just announced its own LAX-MSP a month ago. It's hard to beleive that an 5th carrier could entering this market.
29 steex : I think the result of this will be interesting - the settlement was very explicit that WN/B6 get the first right of refusal on assets they currently l
30 seatback : I said this in jest, but Delta wouldn't be in a position to block research dollars funded by American. But is this worth losing some revenue on the L
31 MIflyer12 : That gets to the sentiment that legacy carriers may not bother to compete with each other (in your example, on some very major metro routes). That gi
32 olddominion727 : These are their hub cities or focus cities. This is not rocket science--Stevie Wonder could've seen this coming. I am surprised BOS and SLC are not in
33 ckfred : Back in the 1990s, AA would defend DFW against any sort of increase in service by DL, but it completely ignored DL, when it came to defending ORD. If
34 slcdeltarumd11 : I think they are targeting o&d on the love plans. It would have been exciting if they added SEA just to keep things interesting! I dont think SLC
35 enilria : It's like my brain made that post without telling me. AGREE!!!!!! Anywhere with DAL service is going to pretty much wreck DFW. Look at the existing o
36 globalflyer : Any idea what eqpt will be used by DL at DAL?
37 texan : You're probably right long term, but DL also says that these flights will bring them up to 63 total from the Metroplex. I doubt they cut any flights
38 PSU.DTW.SCE : Almost certainly going to be CR7/CR9/E70/E75 equipment. Outside of leisure/beach/Florida markets and trans-cons that exceed the range of regional equ
39 LoneStarMike : At Love Field? No. They'd be limited to whatever gates they could secure at DAL. No hardstand operations are permitted except in the case of IROPS. L
40 LoneStarMike : When AA served Love Field, the restrictions were still in place. The only AA hub they could serve nonstop from DAL was STL. All their other hubs were
41 okie : First of all WN only will have 16 of the 20 gates when DAL refurb is completed. That is 80% not 95% We have legacy carriers operating out of DFW, ATL
42 Flighty : Quoting myself, (5 new BA USA flights thread), AA is close to offering a comprehensive "cornerstone" network at MSP potentially to include LHR and LA
43 Boeing717200 : I would almost find it humorous if airlines started asking for gates at DAL to start service. The airport would have no choice but to take gates from
44 MSPNWA : I would find this absolutely hilarious if the DOJ would allow DL to gain the divested gates. In this case it would be very anti-competitive for DL to
45 deltairlines : Exactly. From where Dallas is geographically, SLC offers you connections to the Rockies and Pacific Northwest. Stuff like California and LAS can easi
46 steex : Not to mention a significant fundamental difference - even with Wright Amendment gone, any AA route from DAL will have its performance significantly
47 CO777DAL : I hope UA puts up a fight or at lease run up the lease rates high for Delta. I know UA already has two gates but if they could get these four they cou
48 jetblastdubai : "IF" DL got any DAL gates, it'd be pure karma to throw a whole bunch of 717s in there.
49 PlanesNTrains : Delta has a lot going on and there is clearly a strategy to it all. They might realize that there will not be another opportunity like this where a f
50 srbmod : Not going to happen, as long-term, it wouldn't be to their benefit. The proposed commercial service at Silver Comet Field is limited service of no mo
51 seatback : We're looking at a new regime in Dallas who trained under Crandall. Hopefully, we'll see a much more aggressive AA. I don't believe for one minute De
52 CO777DAL : Not when you won't be competing with anyone on many of the routes (IAH/EWR/IAD/ORD/CLE). The costs are lower at DAL, less delays, taxi times. AA has
53 AAIL86 : With all due respect, having lived in the D/FW area for over 25 years myself, the above is simply not true. Remember, you have more then 2 million pe
54 texan : I don't believe they will stop DFW service or close any particular route. And they certainly won't change all of their Dallas ops to DAL. But if the
55 XT6Wagon : you do know that it wasn't WN who put the gate limit there. I find it amazing the number of people who blame WN for things AA (and its paid for puppe
56 Post contains images commavia : Exactly. The idea that some relatively small expansion at DAL will "wreck" DFW is just preposterous.
57 Post contains images wnflyguy : With DAL opening up this will add good competition between UA,DL and WN. This will be the same competition as HOU vs IAH and ORD vs MDW. I personally
58 syncmaster : Agreed. When you step back and look at the big picture of everything they are doing, SEA, DAL, DCA, BOS, etc, etc it can't help but make one wonder.
59 TVNWZ : I think it is pretty clear. They are trying to grow their business and share. All the consolidation is about done, if you are going to grow going for
60 okie : So according to the article DL is adding 18 flights to DAL which is 63 total out of the DFW metroplex. Even if the 18 flights were 50 seat RJ's that w
61 LAXdude1023 : To be frank, this post is written with a HUGE amount of ignorance. Anyone who has any clue about the Metroplex knows that its a matter of preference
62 Sydscott : Could QF move their flight into DAL? That sounds like a much more "interesting" area for a foreign visitor to get dropped off in.....................
63 airstatdfw : No they can't, no intl ops at DAL.
64 LAXdude1023 : I gotta admit, Ive had some really good times in Northwest Dallas (as recently as last Friday). But its not an economically booming area of the city
65 RIDGID727 : Interesting move on DL's part. Wonder what routes WN will announce new service to that are DL's domestic crown jewels, and bring the fares down to $99
66 jetblastdubai : Sounds a lot like the area around MDW...you're only missing the gangs.
67 LAXdude1023 : No, we got those too. The area around MDW is not as smutty as the area around DAL. They are both surrounded by barrios so they have that in common. I
68 yellowtail : Why…DL operates to IAH and HOU quite nicely.
69 deltairlines : LIkely would be using Embraer jets, which are equipped with First Class (including 3-4 solo seats), overhead bins that don't require pink tags, Econo
70 FlyingSicilian : Hey the area around HOU has barrios too damn'it! Doesn't this announcment seem like DL throwing their cards on the table early to see if anyone blink
71 LAXdude1023 : That seems to be a trend for airports that WN dominates. HOU, DAL, MDW, OAK, and BUR are all like that.
72 Polot : Its a trend for airports in the US in general. Land value around airports really isn't the highest which means you get those kind of neighborhoods, e
73 MesaFlyGuy : Wait, so it's anti-competitive to have another airline enter and give the dominator such competition, but it would competitive to let the dominator h
74 CO777DAL : I guess the better question to ask is what is Delta cutting? They want to add at SEA, DAL, DCA, BOS....they only have so many planes so what are they
75 Boeing717200 : They could split their regional capacity between DFW and DAL focusing on peak period flights rather than off peak and off peak flights.
76 TWA902fly : Honestly I think it depends on how big of an entry DL makes on LAX-DAL. I can't envision more than 3x daily, and my guess would be E75s. Given the gi
77 FlyingSicilian : Do not apply logic and reasoning to anything the US Federal Gov't does, including re:aviation.
78 TVNWZ : MEM. Then CVG.
79 DeltaMD90 : DL has a lot of slack in their fleet I believe. IIRC, there are 757s sitting in the desert ready to go if needed (not all 757s but some.) Plus as oth
80 laca773 : E75s are probably the safest most logical way to start DAL, with the exception of perhaps ATL. Actually, DAL-ATL/MSP/DTW could all be flown with 717s
81 MSPNWA : Here's how I see it. If DL is allowed to expand at DAL and go up to two gates, it will likely increase competition to DAL. No question. Not by a ton,
82 blueflyer : I've read every post and there are a few things I am still pondering. First and foremost, am I the only one to read the press release as announcing a
83 Post contains images usflyguy : Yes, and tell us all about the area around LAX...
84 seatback : Weaker than Delta? AA has a stock pile of cash and is number one in DFW by a long shot (read fortress hub). American has the resources and wherewitha
85 Boeing717200 : You could probably turn a couple of 737s and a boat load of E-Jets on two gates a day if the sequencing is right. The airport benefits from being in
86 RIDGID727 : That many flights from 2 gates is laughable. 30-90 minute delays will have their DL skymiles PAX fuming as they sit waiting for gate space at DAL. Are
87 Post contains links LoneStarMike : New Story from the Dallas Morning News American Airlines gates at Dallas Love Field may prompt bidding battle among carriers In addition to Delta.....
88 Hmelawyer : While I believe it may be true that DAL does not have an advantage over DFW for residents of the Metroplex, I think that you are wrong about business
89 seatback : I'm surprised to hear you say a HUGE advantage, since the airport, or part of it is in Irving. In regards to the rental car situation, that's a commo
90 Post contains images WesternA318 : and we ALL know Karma's a B****h!!! Actually, the 717's could make DAL work quite nicely, I would think.
91 TVNWZ : We all are assuming this was the DOJ's idea. Since this was a negotiated settlement, AA could have offered this up. Why would they do that? They were
92 LAXdude1023 : I cant argue with that. Having to take a bus to get a car is a pain. Dallas sure. Frisco? No way! DFW is far more convienent to Frisco than DAL. Its
93 blueflyer : I can't see Spirit making a serious bid. I don't believe they would want to invest in an airport where their potential growth is so firmly limited to
94 hivue : DOJ settled this case for political reasons following pressure from the administration. It's not that they don't have a clue, it's that they don't re
95 seatback : Excellent point!! I'm embarrassed to say that never crossed my mind. If true, it goes to show how AA was blowing a lot of smoke during the years of t
96 usflyguy : Please explain how you came up with this. Quick note… Northwest Highway doesn't go to Love Field, unless you've never been and you're only trying t
97 LAXdude1023 : Sorry, I meant Mockingbird.
98 usflyguy : Please do tell us about the areas around LAX, PHL, SFO, EWR, LGA, BOS, MIA, IAH (that area is called gunspoint for a reason)…
99 Hmelawyer : My consideration though is not on travel time once I am on the road alone. It is total time in travel. DFW has to have a considerable road travel adv
100 tlecam : This sparked a question for me; my assumption is that the latest round of airline consolidation has come to a close. Well, it will start coming to a
101 enilria : "Southwest Airlines Co., which already has 16 of 20 gates planned for Love Field’s new terminal, also has said it would like to acquire American’s
102 alfa164 : Actually, DL does not fly to LAX out of DFW. DL already has 2 gates at DAL; they are asking for 2 more. That would mean - if my math is correct - 5.7
103 irishayes : For anyone who is a proponent of the idea that DAL has the ability to crush DFW, just look at the failed examples of DL (MEM), NW (MSP), UA (DEN), AA/
104 FlyPNS1 : But that failure is partly because you were forced to either use RJ's on long stage lengths or use mainline aircraft that were woefully under capacit
105 milesrich : They were 747-132's, not 200's. Delta only flew the original -100's, five of them to be exact, excluding Pan Am equipment used on the ATL-IAD-Europe
106 airliner371 : This is incorrect. DL does not have any gates at DAL, they lease 1 from American. Delta is asking to take over AA's 2 gates instead of having to leav
107 steex : No, DL currently owns zero gates at DAL, but leases two from AA. With AA divesting those gates, DL is asking to buy them. They would maintain the two
108 airstatdfw : DL already has 2 gates at DAL; they are asking for 2 more. That would mean - if my math is correct - 5.75 flights/gate/day. They are leasing one gate
109 MSPNWA : Hmmm, good point. That hadn't crossed my mind. But still, I don't understand why AA would willingly give them up unless they weren't that important t
110 Carfield : Sorry to be a bit ignorant... So Southwest will get 16 out of 20 gates on the new Love Field terminal. AA currently gets 2 gates but they are no longe
111 airliner371 : 16 gates are Southwest, 2 are United and 2 were to be AA's, as of right now, they are now unassigned. Exactly, giving 2 more gates to Southwest would
112 crj200faguy : Sounds like an awesome layover to me!!
113 CO777DAL : Well if they can turn them like UA Express then they would be fine. Last Firday our incoming flight was late and as soon as the last person got down
114 cjpark : Oh come on! The gate limits were included in the compromise by Dallas, Ft Worth and Southwest for two reasons. The first reason is that the cities wa
115 Post contains links CO777DAL : Those were CO now UA gates. 16 gates are WN / 2 UA / 2 AA which lease ONE to DL and one to Seaport For those that don't know what DAL Terminal 1 look
116 airliner371 : This is false in so many ways. If WN could have it their way, there would be no gate cap. Because even if they wanted to, other airlines would fail a
117 steex : Too late to edit my post, but as airstatdfw and others have correctly pointed out, DL is only leasing one of the gates. I completely forgot about Sea
118 LAXdude1023 : Again, I mentioned that in this post: You live in the area in question so it makes sense that DAL would be better for you. The area in question is ro
119 blueflyer : No, it would not be beneficial. As explained ad nauseam above, there is a small catchment area of the Metroplex where the two airports compete. Every
120 airliner371 : Funny you leave out the part of my post with the similarities to MDW and how well its works in a very similar situation there.[Edited 2013-11-15 15:2
121 LDVAviation : You have to wonder what is the point of Delta's announcement. As the DOJ has explained, Delta is not likely to qualify. Even if it were, AA can make t
122 airliner371 : I wouldn't be surprised if WN gave AA a deal that AA couldn't refuse. At the same time the press release from the DOJ says "The acquirers of the slot
123 okie : I am just trying to figure out if AA which subleases the gates to others exactly how DL will have preference to those gates. It would seem to me DOJ
124 DeltaMD90 : It's not like this is some irreversible action. DL is trying to jump on the opportunity to do something (the smart thing to do, not me just being bia
125 CO777DAL : And if they started at 5:30 they could even do more. I was on a UA EX that departed DAL at 5:30 last week. Not fun at all.
126 XT6Wagon : yup, The "compromise" was pretty much the minimum that AA and DFW could give up in exchange for WN having a real (and soon) timeline on lifting the w
127 Boeing717200 : DAL is a public use airport. If airlines want gates, the airport is required to provide them, even at the expense of another carrier. Southwest will h
128 Post contains images PlanesNTrains : Unless the good residents of DAL decide to take a little payback for DL throwing them all to the AA wolves at DFW. -Dave
129 Post contains links airliner371 : The agreement says that Southwest has to give gate space if there is space available. If Southwest uses all their gates, no airline can come in and s
130 Boeing717200 : Incorrect. Case law is very clear on this. It is why airports have competition plans. Southwest may have 16 gates, but only some of them are preferen
131 airliner371 : You see the contract, you choose to believe it or not.[Edited 2013-11-15 19:42:16]
132 Post contains links Boeing717200 : If airlines need gates, it will come at the expense of Southwests 16 gates. Love Field is a Federally obligated airport, end of story. Read away: htt
133 airliner371 : It will come at the expense of an available gate. Anyway, what it comes down to is the city of Dallas is responsible for it and who's side do you thi
134 LDVAviation : No harm done, but it seems desperate given that Delta has no real standing to seek a remedy from the courts or the DOJ. What is it going to do? File
135 Post contains links LoneStarMike : I'm surprised to hear this. Part of the agreement to resolve the Wright Amendment states that Continental (now United) isn't mentioned, so maybe it d
136 Boeing717200 : Local jurisdictions cannot set policy that favors a carrier over another. It violates the Federal rules and regulations regarding public use airports
137 airliner371 : I'm gonna send you to: This says it all.[Edited 2013-11-15 20:03:13]
138 LDVAviation : The Federal Government would be suing itself. The policy at Love is the result of a Federal law that repealed the Wright Amendment.
139 Boeing717200 : The only reason Southwest didn't enter CLT or ATL was by choice. There are no barriers to entry at these two airports. The law is very clear on what
140 Boeing717200 : Except Mike is wrong in his interpretation. The City of Dallas is not the Federal Government. It is the airlines that would be suing the City in a Fe
141 airliner371 : Thats not true, Southwest could not get gates. Its not of the City of Dallas, it was law passed by congress approved by the president.
142 steex : Assuming you're correct, I guess it's safe to assume nobody will be attempting to obtain AA's gates. Anybody who wanted to serve DAL would already ha
143 LoneStarMike : Here's what I would love to see happen. If Virgin America could get some of the slots at LGA and/or DCA and one or both of the gates at DAL, they coul
144 airliner371 : I could see VX getting one gate at DAL but not for this.
145 Boeing717200 : Southwest should have filed a complaint. Plenty of other carriers didn't seem to have a problem at either of those airports. Also, the agreement over
146 Post contains links airliner371 : The Wright Amendment was signed into law by the President after being passed by Congress. http://www.aviationpros.com/news/10396478/congress-repeals-
147 Boeing717200 : Why do you cling to a repealed law which is completely irrelivant next October? We're talking about gate use and the requirements of an airport that
148 LoneStarMike : But the whole reason Love Field is gate-restrained is because it's limited to 20 gates. This limit on the number of gates is part of the federal law
149 Boeing717200 : And the course of action will be to change the agreement and build more gates (this part of the agreement was done by curfew much like SNA) or redist
150 DeltaMD90 : IDK, it seems like you're reading into this more. They see an opportunity and are just going for it. I don't think they'll be that sad if they get de
151 TVNWZ : This pretty much makes it about gates too. Section 5 of the actual federal bill changing the terms/conditions of the WA. https://www.govtrack.us/congr
152 Boeing717200 : What he said. Delta is stirring the pot because they can.
153 LoneStarMike : Which will take an act of Congress since there is a congressional mandate on the number of gates LoneStarMike
154 Boeing717200 : That's what lobbyists are for.
155 Post contains images CO777DAL : I was too. I never left that early I think? I know I have had 5:45am and 5:50am departures in the past. Here is a photo at the gate. I remember when
156 Boeing717200 : Curfew will probably go into effect on October 16, 2014. Why enforce what is basically a paper provision one second before it's required.
157 Boeing717200 : Different time and policies. Competition plans didn't kick in until 2000. What happened back in the day no doubt had an influence on changes that wer
158 LoneStarMike : Yes - to get Federal Laws changed. Which contradicts the point you made earlier about the 20-gate cap at Love Field The gate cap may have been origin
159 Boeing717200 : Go through an administrative procedure over gate use with the FAA. It only takes once to gain a full understanding of what they expect an airport to
160 LDVAviation : The situation at Love is not comparable to that at SNA. That is a local, not a federal matter. The presiding law there is the California Environmenta
161 blueflyer : The Wright Amendment Reform Act of 2006 does not state which airlines should receive gates at Love Field. In fact, it specifically leaves that up to t
162 Boeing717200 : Actually it is, the mechanism for gate reduction/limitation is the curfew. A curfew burdened airport that is operated by a sole proprietorship has ce
163 Post contains links blueflyer : The cap at 20 gates is federal law. First sentence of Section 5 (a) of the Act. http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/PLAW-109publ352/pdf/PLAW-109publ352.pdf[
164 Post contains images Deltal1011man : No you don't. This stupid question was asked......AGAIN.....on the Q3 call. SLC isn't getting smaller and is expected to see some growth over the nex
165 Boeing717200 : For now. If airlines truly want access, it will change. If they all bail out except Southwest then it's a useless act because the airport can use the
166 blueflyer : Congress recognizing that an agreement, a contract, exists doesn't absolve that contract from complying with all laws. Let's assume for a moment the
167 XT6Wagon : Or a Federal Judge.
168 seatback : The original agreement should have been if WN wants 16 gates, then 16 gates are available to support meaningful competition. Four gates split by two
169 airliner371 : And if they did that, I'm sure WN would go all out and have an end to the Wright Amendement. DL and B6 probably don't care enough.
170 capejet : You forgot the city of Fort Worth, you would need to take them to court too. They would not be happy with any changes to the agreement, except one th
171 LDVAviation : Oh good. Let the lawsuits begin. Versus DAL, EWR, LGA, JFK, DCA... Where else has competition been restricted?
172 Post contains links LoneStarMike : Thank you for the link. I read it. I believe the part of the compliance that comes into play here is Unjust Discrimination between Aeronautical Users
173 Cubsrule : There is, as far as I know, no precedent for a lessee who is using its gates well to lose use for a new entrant. If WN runs 150-160 flights out of th
174 PHX787 : I missed this, sorry: What is left at DFW? I wonder too. Especially since DL is expanding there.
175 par13del : Irrespective of all the legal links posted, the one fundamental item that I keep returning to is the basis of the original WA, all subsequent changes
176 Boeing717200 : The reason for this is that most airports limit the number of preferential use gates a carrier can hold. For example, if a carrier has a dozen gates,
177 seatback : ...and that's probably the point. The airports aren't very far apart and serve the entire area very well. It's more of a point that everyone besides
178 FlyASAGuy2005 : Me too. That is factually incorrect. WN could have entered the ATL market at any time using a CUTE gate on D or E concourse. ATL's competition and gr
179 Cubsrule : The point you are missing is that there's nothing illegal (or really even untoward) about non-preferential gates being first come first serve. If WN
180 Deltal1011man : cart before the horse. Dallas is a ways off from getting SEA flights on DL. shorter haul flying is more pressing right now.
181 Post contains links cjpark : Interesting Article concerning Delta's ambition with DAL. The graphic not shown on the online version shows that only WN is the only US airline that c
182 bluefltspecial : Any idea when Delta will announce the schedules for DAL?
183 DDR : Maybe Delta was wrong to close the DFW hub? If Delta was so concerned with the market, why did they close the hub? DL has been adding service to the D
184 Post contains images WesternA318 : I thought it was because of Braniff and Delta as well...but then again, WN built Love with its own two hands didnt it?
185 Post contains images DDR : I said IS, not WAS
186 Post contains links LoneStarMike : Southwest Airlines wants American Airlines’ two gates at Love Field Dallas Morning News December 5, 2013 WN's main argument as to why they should ge
187 slcdeltarumd11 : Its not the worst argument I have ever heard. Does make some sense. The hardest part of the argument is how many gates and flights southwest already
188 blueflyer : It makes sense for a small portion of the user base of either DFW or DAL. With the arrival of Spirits at DFW, DAL provides competition to DFW only fo
189 usflyguy : Actually, the new terminal, WN did build with its own checkbook.
190 LAXdude1023 : Realistically, WN has no chance at more gates.
191 airliner371 : This is not allowed. The whole thing is AA has to give up the lease entirely. Maybe thats what "makes sense" but in Dallas, people will go out of the
192 blueflyer : Then how does the DOJ get to dictate which airline would use the gates when the Wright repeal agreement specifically states the gates are to become c
193 jporterfi : It is my opinion that AA will not start LAX-ATL until/unless DL starts DFW-LAX. However, if AA's retaliation is upguaging LGA-ATL to mainline (might
194 XT6Wagon : Its also possible for WN to argue that DFW + DAL is the market and not just DAL. I mean they only have nearly 4 decades of DFW and other places cryin
195 okie : My contention way up post. DL is not ignorant, that is why in my opinion they listed a very aggressive tentative schedule to try and swing opinion on
196 AirAfreak : Blah, Blah, Blah... let's forget politics and talk about amenities: How are the airport amenities/concessions? Any recommended restaurants at the airp
197 SWADawg : I think the biggest argument that WN has is that they can't just get more gates at DFW without giving up the same number of gates at DAL. Airlines lik
198 Cubsrule : This, combined with the idea of treating the Metroplex as a single market, is WN's potentially winning argument, I think. DL could add whatever capac
199 adtall : To play Devil's Advocate, that is and was WN's choice though, isn't it? All the way back to 1970, and when they signed up to the revised Wright Amend
200 Cubsrule : That's the counterargument, but I don't know that it's true. I don't think WN could profitably fly 800 daily seats on DFW-LBB.
201 adtall : That may be, but WN probably isn't going to fly 800 seats to LBB anyways after October due to Wright distortion. Bigger picture, that would tend to a
202 Post contains images Revelation : Heh, heh, heh... 200+ posts for something DL can't even do unless they get a very unlikely government ruling? I hereby declare that Revelation Airlin
203 blueflyer : I don't buy it and I hope the DOJ won't buy it either. Southwest can bring competition to DFW anytime they want as long as they're willing to allow c
204 usflyguy : DAL has a brand new terminal (paid for by WN that is still under construction) with great restaurants and concessions. and DL should be required to g
205 adtall : If you're counting E and F in DL's gate totals that would be an error. E, F, and most of the southern half of D are CUTE, with preferential for int'l
206 Cubsrule : No, it argues for AA having a different (anti)competitive response to WN at DAL and at DFW. AA doesn't match WN fares ex-DAL (a walkup DAL-LBB r/t fo
207 surfandsnow : I really wonder about DL and DAL. They added CRJ-200 ATL-DAL service back in 2000, but cut the flights in 2003 to focus on DFW. Of course, at that tim
208 Cubsrule : The sheer size of ATL allows success at secondary airports. DL is the only legacy at MDW and HOU and actually runs mainline to both places from ATL (
209 LoneStarMike : There's one big difference when comparing CO & DL at Love Field, though. CO always had a preferential-use lease on it's two gates from the time t
210 adtall : Using Friday the 13th I think would be a better comparison since AA doesn't have it's full schedule running from the ice storm and it's still within
211 cjpark : Southwest has 96.4% of the passenger share at Love Field compared to the 82.1% AA has at DFW. Two additional gates would allow WN to completely monop
212 usflyguy : Wrong... 1. At IAH, UA has 90.1% market share. Beside, all 3 of those are secondary airports behind DFW, ORD, and IAH. Include the WN numbers in the
213 Cubsrule : Is it a preference for DAL or a preference for WN? On short routes with a lot of ERJs and M80s, AA's product isn't particularly good.
214 par13del : So the cost factors at DAL and DWF have minimal effect on the prices charged by AA and WN?? I don't think so. The question then is what un-competitiv
215 cjpark : The figures provided by the DMN show UA at IAH at 85%. The DOJ did not specify markets only the airports that AA/US had to give up slots. With the ex
216 Post contains images Deltal1011man : wait....WN can expand at IAD/BWI all they want. JFK all the want. Clearly Southwest shouldn't be getting any LGA/EWR/DCA slots then right? Same argum
217 LoneStarMike : That's because they use their gates more efficiently and provide the service with mainline jets (despite the restrictions.) The other carriers at Lov
218 Cubsrule : You are conflating two different questions--whether divestment is necessary and to whom necessary divestment occurs. Forcing AA to divest at DAL nece
219 alfa164 : Disregarding how many gates WN is "only using...now", how man gates total are there available (or going to be available, if construction and/or remod
220 Cubsrule : Putting aside the divestment, when new DAL is complete, WN will use 16 of 20 gates.
221 Deltal1011man : and just to add, United will have two of he four and it looks like DL or WN will have the other two. (I believe they are the only ones who have expre
222 Post contains links usflyguy : Oh, I did my own research. http://www.fly2houston.com/TrafficStats Actually, aren't gates being repainted and some taken out of service since WN uses
223 LoneStarMike : That question should actually be rephrased as what un-competitive practices did WN. AA, DFW Airport, the City of Fort Worth and the City of Dallas en
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
SWA Plans "Substantial" Growth At Love Field posted Mon Mar 25 2013 11:10:26 by LAXintl
EK Announces Big Expansion Plans At ITB Berlin posted Tue Mar 16 2010 06:54:25 by SQ_EK_freak
Copa Airlines Announces 2007 Expansion Plans posted Fri Jun 1 2007 15:54:18 by CptGirmayTesfa
WestJet Announces 2004 Expansion Plans posted Mon Dec 22 2003 18:47:56 by WestJetYYZ
Delta's Boston Expansion Plans? posted Sun Apr 1 2001 18:21:31 by ATL Traveller
Major Delta JFK Expansion Plans posted Wed Oct 18 2000 22:14:15 by DeltaAir
Flair Airlines Expansion Plans? posted Thu Oct 10 2013 16:44:00 by YXD172
Delta Announces Q2 2013 Profit $685 Million posted Wed Jul 24 2013 06:07:14 by DL747400
EVA Airways Outlines Fleet Expansion Plans posted Mon Jul 1 2013 07:52:36 by LAXintl
Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4 posted Sat May 25 2013 07:50:43 by Atlflyer