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The New AA And Israel?  
User currently offlineORDTLV2414 From United States of America, joined Mar 2013, 296 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 10264 times:
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What do you guys think will happen to TLV with the new AA? As some of you may know AA is currently unable to fly to TLV because of unpaid wages by TWA. Do you think they will pay it? If they do will the keep PHL-TLV, will they move it? start ORD,MIA or JFK? What will happen to AA's codeshare with LY?

38 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinearielwar From United States of America, joined Aug 2013, 112 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (8 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 9915 times:

I think the fine is like $20 million, idk if it's worth it.

User currently offlinecatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3029 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (8 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 9862 times:

Quoting arielwar (Reply 1):
I think the fine is like $20 million, idk if it's worth it.

It's worth it if annual revenues exceed $20M. Others on this board probably know the numbers.


User currently offlineIndependence76 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 238 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (8 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 9421 times:

Quoting arielwar (Reply 1):
I think the fine is like $20 million, idk if it's worth it.

Shouldn't be a problem, considering a certain someone was asking the company for it without hesitation.   



"In general, pride is at the bottom of all great mistakes." - John Ruskin
User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4036 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (8 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 9232 times:

Parker has already said they are keeping it. US makes a lot of money on PHL-TLV, I can only think JFK-TLV and MIA-TLV would be even higher yielding.

User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3117 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (8 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 9087 times:

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 4):
Parker has already said they are keeping it. US makes a lot of money on PHL-TLV, I can only think JFK-TLV and MIA-TLV would be even higher yielding.

So I guess that answers the question about if AA will finally pay those TWA employees the money that has been owed to them for some time. Hope it happens that way, or if this will be an AA flight operated by PMUS.  



AA-AC-AQ-AS-BN-BD-CO-CS-DL-EA-EZ-HA-HP-KL-KN-MP-MW-NK-NW-OO-OZ-PA-PS-QX-RC-RH-RW-SA-TG-TW-UA-US-VS-WA-WC-WN
User currently offlineMah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32604 posts, RR: 72
Reply 6, posted (8 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 9012 times:

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 4):
Parker has already said they are keeping it. US makes a lot of money on PHL-TLV, I can only think JFK-TLV and MIA-TLV would be even higher yielding.

Parker has said a lot of things that aren't going to be true.

It astonishes me how gullible people are.

[Edited 2013-11-14 18:38:13]


a.
User currently onlinePHX Flyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 542 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 8777 times:

Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 6):
Parker has said a lot of things that aren't going to be true.

Are you predicting US Airways will give up the Tel Aviv route, once the merger with American is consummated?


User currently offlinephxa340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 882 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (8 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 8636 times:

Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 6):
It astonishes me how gullible people are.

Or how people ignore past mergers and somehow think this one will be any different  


User currently offlineMah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32604 posts, RR: 72
Reply 9, posted (8 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 8575 times:

Quoting PHX Flyer (Reply 7):
Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 6):Parker has said a lot of things that aren't going to be true.
Are you predicting US Airways will give up the Tel Aviv route, once the merger with American is consummated?

All I am saying is that what Parker says is meaningless, because once the merger is closed, he can turn off the lie machine - and start screwing over employees and customers in the process.

I do think AA will continue flying to TLV. It makes no sense to serve it from Philadelphia, however, when, outside of peak summer, 3 out of every 4 people travelling to Israel come from five airports: EWR, JFK, MIA, FLL, LAX. So why should AA bother serving it from Philadelphia?



a.
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10350 posts, RR: 14
Reply 10, posted (8 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 8361 times:

Perhaps AA will return the DL 767 model (yeah, right)   that we had on display in the Sheraton Hotel in TLV when we started service to TLV in '91. We suspected the TW crews took it when the hotel was putting on such a big show for our service starting. TW's crews stayed at that hotel, also. The DL folks that were TDY to TLV for the PanAm transition were staying at that hotel, also. The model was there, for a few days and one morning, it disappeared.


"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlinekiffy From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 191 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (8 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 8245 times:

Don't forget about the huge pharmaceutical companies that benefit from the TLV-PHL flight...

User currently offlineORDTLV2414 From United States of America, joined Mar 2013, 296 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (8 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 8139 times:
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Quoting HPRamper (Reply 4):
JFK-TLV

This market is very very saturated


User currently offlineMah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32604 posts, RR: 72
Reply 13, posted (8 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 8092 times:

Quoting ORDTLV2414 (Reply 12):
Quoting HPRamper (Reply 4):JFK-TLV
This market is very very saturated

Soon enough it will overtake New York-Paris as the second most travelled city pair between the mainland United States and any overseas point. There's room for a fourth.

AA already plays in oversaturated markets - NYCMAD, NYCROM and NYCMIL all have at least four airlines and none is even half the size of NYCTLV. A market as large as NYCTLV with only three airlines is the complete opposite of saturated. And the fares don't suck, either.



a.
User currently offlineusairways85 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 3386 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (8 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 8042 times:

Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 9):
It makes no sense to serve it from Philadelphia,
Quoting ORDTLV2414 (Reply 12):
This market is very very saturated

Agreed. I do not deny that the JFK-TLV market is exponentially larger and even if JFK only maintains a small domestic presence it can likely handle a good portion of the connections but you have a monopoly on PHL-TLV. You'll be something like the 6th flt and 4th carrier on NYC-TLV. Who knows, maybe that will not make a difference because of the enormity of the NYC-TLV market.

I can see PHL-TLV going to JFK-TLV, I just don't agree that PHL-TLV makes absolutely no sense as though the airline wanted to buy a 380 to fly PHL-NRT.


User currently offlineiFlyLOTs From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 453 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (8 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 8016 times:

Quoting Independence76 (Reply 3):
Shouldn't be a problem, considering a certain someone was asking the company for it without hesitation.

I see what you did there.

Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 9):
I do think AA will continue flying to TLV. It makes no sense to serve it from Philadelphia, however, when, outside of peak summer, 3 out of every 4 people travelling to Israel come from five airports: EWR, JFK, MIA, FLL, LAX. So why should AA bother serving it from Philadelphia?

Well if AA can fill planes from MIA and JFK to TLV, why not keep PHL and use that as the place to try and feed all of the connecting traffic from smaller US-Israel markets? I mean, haven't some people been speculating that this is basically what PHL can be used for post merger? A connection point for smaller markets to Europe so that they can focus more on O&D traffic out of JFK.



"...stay hungry, stay foolish" -Steve Jobs
User currently offlinegizmonc From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 309 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (8 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 7873 times:

When CO started EWR TLV they did it with a 777 they were not running it long and it went to 2 flights daily. Just checked united.com and yes they are still running it with TWO 777-200's. In its hey day TWA had like 12-14 flgihts per weeks out of JFK. At the same time Tower Air was running 747-200's. So there is a market. I picked ramdom dates in NOV laving the 20 and return 27 and the airfare was $1669.00. I am sure there are some discount places AKA bucket stores that sell those tickets little cheaper. I vote for AA to pay what is owed to the TWA folks......I can say this I went to TLV twice on TWA NR and twice working. I could not believe the number of employees they had at the ticket counter and the gate.
We used to send a 747-200 STL LGW and folks checked in at the ticket counter it was staffed with adaquate agents.
At the Gate there was usually 1 Agent boarding the flight and 2 agents over at the Customer service counter. So TLV was way over staffed. Not sure of the total number of agents but it was HIGH. Just googled and found a link back to airlines.net

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...ral_aviation/print.main?id=4575080

IN TLV TWA had 75 employees. the TLV employees claimed that route generated 8.5-10 profit yearly. With fares much higher than they were at the end of TWA JFK TLV in 2001. I could see that AA could made a deal with the former TWA employees. If the route is that profitable it will STAY and probably more flights from other cities. MIA TLV would be packed with the folks from HOLLYWOOD AREA.


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10350 posts, RR: 14
Reply 17, posted (8 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 7627 times:

Quoting gizmonc (Reply 16):
IN TLV TWA had 75 employees. the TLV employees claimed that route generated 8.5-10 profit yearly. With fares much higher than they were at the end of TWA JFK TLV in 2001. I could see that AA could made a deal with the former TWA employees. If the route is that profitable it will STAY and probably more flights from other cities. MIA TLV would be packed with the folks from HOLLYWOOD AREA.

The problem that DL ran into in TLV, in '91, was that a good portion of the people, flying back and forth, were redeeming their PanAM FF miles as TLV seemed to be the capital of PA's FF world. They probably made money from the cargo when it was still a TLV-Paris-JFK flight as a good portion of the cargo was perishables (melons & goose liver) going to France, but once they made it non-stop from TLV to JFK, that revenue dropped off, too.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineckfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5174 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (8 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 7472 times:

Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 9):
I do think AA will continue flying to TLV. It makes no sense to serve it from Philadelphia, however, when, outside of peak summer, 3 out of every 4 people travelling to Israel come from five airports: EWR, JFK, MIA, FLL, LAX. So why should AA bother serving it from Philadelphia?

But, would AA fly ORD-TLV. I can think of a lot of people in the Chicago area of all faiths and backgrounds who have the Holy Land on their "to do" lists.


User currently offlinecrAAzy From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 771 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (8 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 7247 times:
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Quoting arielwar (Reply 1):
I think the fine is like $20 million, idk if it's worth it.

Why spend $20 million to settle the AA TLV problem when it can be spent to hire a new consulting firm for a new logo and paint scheme?


User currently offlineckfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5174 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (8 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 7165 times:

Quoting crAAzy (Reply 19):
Why spend $20 million to settle the AA TLV problem when it can be spent to hire a new consulting firm for a new logo and paint scheme?

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Many, many companies change their corporate identity during or after a trip through bankruptcy.

The CO scheme that is now the UA scheme came about after a bankruptcy stay. DL ditched the wavy gravy after coming out of bankruptcy. UA's last livery (the white and blue one) was introduced during its trip through bankruptcy. The last TWA livery was introduced after one of its several trips into bankruptcy.

And, many people had been saying that the last livery, which was introduced in the late 60s, was due for a change, even if AA never went into Chapter 11.

Even a brand as venerable as Kraft has updated its logo, ditching KRAFT in all caps for Kraft with only the K capitalized and an updated font.


User currently offlineORDTLV2414 From United States of America, joined Mar 2013, 296 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (8 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 7107 times:
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but guys what about the LY codeshare?

User currently offlinexdlx From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 631 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (8 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 5782 times:

Quoting crAAzy (Reply 19):

It will cost a lot more than $20m to repaint.


User currently offlineripcordd From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 1149 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (8 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 5573 times:

You do know coming out of BK the will be a brand new company on paper

User currently offlineklwright69 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jan 2000, 2015 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (8 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5471 times:

Not taking over TW's JFK-TLV was one of the dumbest moves ever by AA. Their official reason was for "economic reasons." They never said publicly that it was about not paying TW's employees.

It is absurd AA never started TLV after all these years, leaving the market for US, DL, and UA. CO swooped in at an especially good time. It was only TW and Tower Air in the market back then when CO got in. The only other market that saw two CO 777's was IAH-LHR.

In other threads on this topic, many people have said that AA will not owe these people anything, that it was TW back then and they're gone. No one has made this statement yet. I think they will have to settle, and the employees will demand interest on benefits owed.

It should be noted that the incumbent US carriers have NOT added nonstops to TLV that are not in the northeast (NYC and PHL)


User currently offlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6444 posts, RR: 9
Reply 25, posted (8 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5762 times:

Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 6):
Parker has said a lot of things that aren't going to be true.

It astonishes me how gullible people are.

It astonishes me how some people continue to praise the old AA managment when they were obviously incompetant.


User currently offlinejfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3379 posts, RR: 5
Reply 26, posted (8 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 5543 times:

Quoting ORDTLV2414 (Reply 12):
This market is very very saturated

No it's not. There are a lot of Jewish people are in the NYC area. And real jews; the ones that go to Israel frequently.

This is like a trip to Boca (NYC-FLL/PBI) for many New Yorkers.

If they decide to fly the route, they will do fine.

My question...why would AA not pay the judgement, but the New AA will? What changed?


User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4036 posts, RR: 8
Reply 27, posted (8 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 5225 times:

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 26):
My question...why would AA not pay the judgement, but the New AA will? What changed?

PMAA had no presence, no station there, and was in poor financial straits to make that kind of investment. Now, US has already taken care of the legwork, now it's just a matter of paying the fine and adding flights to an existing station.


User currently offlinegizmonc From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 309 posts, RR: 0
Reply 28, posted (8 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3995 times:

I did a simple google on the subject cities with Jewish population:

Jewish population by metropolitan area
Rank Metro Area Country Number % of World Total
1 Tel Aviv Israel 3,000,000[1] 23
2 New York United States 2,000,000 15.8
3 Haifa Israel 655,000 4.9
4 Los Angeles United States 621,000[2] 4.7
5 Jerusalem Israel 570,000[2] 4.3
6 South Florida United States 514,000[2] 3.9
7 Paris France 310,000[2] 2.3
8 Philadelphia United States 276,000[2] 2.1
9 Chicago United States 261,000[2] 2.0

Topping the list is the NYC area...... 2 MILLION
next is LAX area.......621 thousand
then here comes SOUTH FLORIA..514 thousand
US AIRWAYS PHL...........................276 thousand
CHICAGO ........................................261 thousand

With those numbers I would think AA/US would move PHL TLV to JFK TLV
possibly add something out of LAX
But South Florida coming is a 1/2 million could easily support MIA TLV.
I remember when TWA flew JFK TLV many passengers compainted of going
North to NYC when they lived south of ATL.


User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7497 posts, RR: 24
Reply 29, posted (8 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3882 times:

First off, if AA is going to pony up the cash to keep flying to TLV, I dont think they will just serve TLV from one gateway.

I think it is totally realistic to add JFK-TLV in addition to keeping PHL-TLV and potentially adding MIA-TLV (4x weekly). Why give up PHL-TLV? Its done very well and JFK is not going to have the hub pull that PHL will have. Let JFK feed the O&D and PHL feed the connections.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineMIflyer12 From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 963 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (8 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3795 times:

Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 13):
Soon enough it will overtake New York-Paris as the second most travelled city pair between the mainland United States and any overseas point. There's room for a fourth.

That assertion needs to be reconciled with TLV's very low ranking in airports as direct gateways to the U.S. (About 35th, and less than 1/4 the passenger count of #5 CDG, in 12 months to 9/2012.) There may be lots of passengers from Israel to all cities of the U.S., but many are connecting (in non-U.S. airports). AA may succeed with JFK-TLV but it doesn't wish away all that connecting competition.

http://www.dot.gov/sites/dot.dev/fil...20Report%20for%20Sept%202012_0.pdf


User currently offlineusairways85 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 3386 posts, RR: 7
Reply 31, posted (8 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3700 times:

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 29):

I think it is totally realistic to add JFK-TLV in addition to keeping PHL-TLV and potentially adding MIA-TLV (4x weekly). Why give up PHL-TLV? Its done very well and JFK is not going to have the hub pull that PHL will have. Let JFK feed the O&D and PHL feed the connections.

The argument being made is that the US-TLV connections primarily come from cities that AA does serve from JFK (South Florida & LAX) thus JFK can handle the NYC O&D as well as the majority of the US-TLV connections.


User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7497 posts, RR: 24
Reply 32, posted (8 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3645 times:

Quoting usairways85 (Reply 31):
The argument being made is that the US-TLV connections primarily come from cities that AA does serve from JFK (South Florida & LAX) thus JFK can handle the NYC O&D as well as the majority of the US-TLV connections.

And Im not sure I completely buy it. PHL-TLV by itself is around 60 PDEW. Its not like when DL moved ATL-TLV to JFK-TLV where it made sense. PHL-TLV is a larger market and has a better geographic locale. If nothing else, PHL plus all the connections it offers can easily fare well on this market with a 763 in addition to JFK-TLV.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineqf2220 From Australia, joined Aug 2013, 392 posts, RR: 0
Reply 33, posted (8 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3600 times:

Quoting catiii (Reply 2):
It's worth it if annual revenues exceed $20M.

It will be worth it if the $20m is less than the discounted valuation of future profits on the route, adjusted for any risk to profitability that the route may or may not cause. Sorry catiii, but revenue is not what you should be comparing this to.


User currently offlineMah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32604 posts, RR: 72
Reply 34, posted (8 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3551 times:

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 25):
Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 6):Parker has said a lot of things that aren't going to be true.

It astonishes me how gullible people are.
It astonishes me how some people continue to praise the old AA managment when they were obviously incompetant.

I've never praised AA's incompetent management. I was over the moon when Arpey finally left - worst airline CEO in the last decade. It astonishes me how people just put words in other's mouths.

I do like Horton, though.



a.
User currently offlinephllax From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 436 posts, RR: 0
Reply 35, posted (8 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3054 times:

Couple of things to add here,

At one point when LY was only doing LAX-TLV 3x/week, BOTH Continental flights originated/terminated at LAX. Then LY upped to 5x weekly and US has their flight originating/terminating in LAX so CO took it down to one flight (90) and now neither UA flight originates in LA. I have been on the PHL-LAX segment of the US flight and there are generally 20-30 people on the LAX-PHL segment per day.

The NYC market will be tough, because you have people that are very loyal and will only fly LY to Israel, and you have people that REFUSE to fly LY to Israel because on the onboard schnenagans by the orthodox sects. This is only true for the JFK/EWR flights. (I've flown JFK-TLV and TLV-LAX on LY and the difference is night and day pax wise). The hard product between DL/UA/LY is almost the same, except you get a lot more food on LY.

Also, as jfklganyc said, there are a lot of people who regularly go back and forth between NYC/TLV just like they're
going to PBI.


User currently offlineklwright69 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jan 2000, 2015 posts, RR: 3
Reply 36, posted (8 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2602 times:

Yes, my best friend who is jewish would never fly anyone other than LY to Israel. I am sure there are many others like him out there!

I am wondering, no one from Israel ever really posts anything truly authoritative on this topic. Maybe it's been collectively forgotten. Has it ever been mentioned in the media there?

It seems like we are just speculating at this point. Just saying...


User currently offlinechepos From Puerto Rico, joined Dec 2000, 6203 posts, RR: 11
Reply 37, posted (8 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2488 times:

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 36):
Yes, my best friend who is jewish would never fly anyone other than LY to Israel. I am sure there are many others like him out there!

Having flown LY it's beyond me why anyone would go out of their way to fly them. Surly crews, the check in process with the whole security ordeal was a HASSLE, the hard product on-board was nothing to write home about. Traveling to Israel I would choose a US carrier any day over EL AL.

[Edited 2013-11-15 13:41:20]


Fly the Flag!!!!
User currently offlinegizmonc From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 309 posts, RR: 0
Reply 38, posted (8 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2251 times:

I have NR on EL AL, flew TLV FRA on 757. Service was okay but as previous posters noted the crew sure was surly. Food was not that good. Security leaving TLV is a whole new experience. So many questions, checking computer , security lady went as far as to want to open my email. I told here.. got a server in your back pocket that I can use. It was evident she was over her head on that question. I wonder if WIFI is free. I got to visit Jerusalem for a quick day. but the beaches at the hotel were very nice. I could go back but other places I would prefer to visit. HKG is HIGH on the list just want to see the city.

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