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Belly Landing In St. Augustine, Florida  
User currently offlinefuturestar68 From Austria, joined May 2004, 235 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3992 times:

A Mooney landed on it's belly this morning at KSGJ, the Northeast Florida Regional Airport in St. Augustine, Florida. No one was hurt, and according to a mechanic who works there and whom I could hear talking about it this afternoon, the pilot simply forgot to lower the gear on approach. Apparently, he was told to extend the downwind, and the pilot therefore decided to leave the gear up a little longer and then forgot to lower it. Really unnecessary, but we're all just human beings, I guess... Just glad no one was hurt. Runway 13/31 was closed for a while, the airport stayed open for aircraft able to use the shorter runway 02.

http://www.actionnewsjax.com/mostpop...ustine/qckfRa3RX0eqIJzlDM1K4w.cspx

13 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineNWAROOSTER From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1159 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3938 times:
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Brilliant. A pilot better remember, the first and only thing to do "Is Fly The Airplane."
Obviously, this pilot needs a refresher course.   



Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
User currently offlinerj777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1886 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3888 times:

I remember in the movie "A Thousand Heroes" when they said "You can't belly land a jumbo..."................that might have been true back in 1989........ but pilot skill and survivability has improved dramatically since then thanks to pilots like Al Haynes (UA 232), Sully Sullenberger (US 1549), the pilot of BA 38, and the pilot of the LOT 767 that belly landed in Warsaw (so I guess you can belly land a jumbo....)............but still........... as was mentioned above........ the first thing to do in an emergency is to "Fly The Airplane"............

[Edited 2013-11-14 13:48:37]

User currently offlinejetstar From United States of America, joined May 2003, 1665 posts, RR: 10
Reply 3, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3745 times:
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I remember many years ago of a pilot who forgot to extend the landing gear, he told the FAA that he could not hear the tower advising him that his landing gear was still retracted because there was a loud horn going off in the cockpit.

For those non pilots out there, all retractable landing gear airplanes must have a warning horn that sounds when the throttle is pulled back far enough to warn that the landing gear is not down.

On larger airplanes the warning horn goes off when the flaps are fully extended to the landing position and if the landing gear is still retracted, a loud warning horn would sound.

Believe it or not but this is not a rare occasion, in my maintenance days when I was working for a repair station at HPN this would happen about once a year, most times it was a mechanical problem, but occasionally it was pilot error. One of my first jobs at this repair shop was to do a temporary belly repair of a Piper Comanche that landed gear up, the pilot forgot to lower the gear, to make it safe enough to get a ferry permit and fly the airplane out to a repair ship that had the capabilities to repair the damage.

Another time I had to assist the airport personnel in removing a Beech Bonanza that had a main landing gear collapse upon landing on the main runway due to a mechanical problem, Beech Bonanza’s and Barons use a special wheeled cradle when doing a landing gear retraction test so we towed this cradle out to the runway and with a lot of manpower was able to lift the airplane up high enough on the side where the landing gear collapsed and pushed the cradle under the airplane and onto the cradle and then walked it off the runway.

JetStar


User currently offlinefuturestar68 From Austria, joined May 2004, 235 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2834 times:

Quoting rj777 (Reply 2):
but still........... as was mentioned above........ the first thing to do in an emergency is to "Fly The Airplane"............

Yeah that's true, but this wasn't actually an emergency, up until the plane touched down, the pilot just forgot to lower the gear. The rule here wouldn't be "Fly the airplane" (in an emergency), it would be the use of checklists... Maybe this will serve as a little reminder to everyone, that even after countless hours, using checklists is still the only method to make sure you don't forget something. I hope some folks out there learn from this accident.

Also, does anyone have an idea what consequences the pilot might face now?


User currently offlineaviatorcraig From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2010, 262 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2792 times:

Quoting rj777 (Reply 2):
I remember in the movie "A Thousand Heroes" when they said "You can't belly land a jumbo..."................that might have been true back in 1989

PIA had already proved that you can in 1986:

http://www.historyofpia.com/acciphoto.htm



707 727 Caravelle Comet Concorde Dash-7 DC-9 DC-10 One-Eleven Trident Tristar Tu-134 VC-10 Viscount plus boring stuff!
User currently offlineaviatorcraig From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2010, 262 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2772 times:

Quoting rj777 (Reply 2):
I remember in the movie "A Thousand Heroes" when they said "You can't belly land a jumbo..."................that might have been true back in 1989

PIA had already proved by 1986 that you can:

http://www.historyofpia.com/acciphoto.htm

Whether you fly a Mooney or a 747, the checklist is your friend.



707 727 Caravelle Comet Concorde Dash-7 DC-9 DC-10 One-Eleven Trident Tristar Tu-134 VC-10 Viscount plus boring stuff!
User currently offlinecrownvic From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1957 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2580 times:

Whats even more bizarre is back in the mid 80's there was a video of a light aircraft Piper Arrow, with gear problems and they drove an Audi underneath and someone standing through the sunroof pulled the gear down by hand while the aircraft flew dangerously low above AT THIS SAME AIRPORT!! must be something in the water in St Augustine lol


http://www.apnewsarchive.com/1985/Me...d-99f0c7c6d69ef88f52802fb48f248b64


User currently offlinekhpn From United States of America, joined Sep 2010, 158 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2462 times:

Quoting jetstar (Reply 3):
in my maintenance days when I was working for a repair station at HPN

Ive worked at HPN too!

this thread reminds me of this classic video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YffmapFxt0M


User currently offlinejetstar From United States of America, joined May 2003, 1665 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2125 times:
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I know of a Lockheed JetStar that landed gear up because the pilots forgot to lower the landing gear, and I know the reason why because I previously flew on that airplane.

On the technical side, to prevent landing with the gear retracted, in flight any time a throttle is retarded beyond a certain point with the flaps retracted, the landing gear warning horn sounds. To silence the landing gear warning horn, there is a push button switch just below the landing gear selector handle that had to be pushed in and held in while the throttle(s) were retarded. The landing gear selector handle was located on the co-pilots side of the instrument panel, so it was normal procedure for the Captain to point to the button to signal the co-pilot to hold the button in when the throttles were retarded.

During decent when approaching the lower altitudes around the mid 20’s it was normal procedure to pull the outboard engines back to idle to keep from exceeding the redline airspeed. To come down even faster we sometimes brought a third engine back to idle leaving one engine up on power, usually number 2 to maintain enough bleed air for pressurization while also extending the speed brake, using this procedure a JetStar can descend like a rock without approaching the airspeed redline.

Many JetStar operators installed another button wired in parallel with the landing gear warning silence button on the pilots left hand grip of the control wheel so all he had to do was push in the switch with a finger on his left hand while retarding the throttles with his right hand.

In the late 1970’s during a gap in my full time jobs I did some free lance work on JetStars based at HPN. As a factory trained JetStar mechanic I would often assist some of the other JetStar operators doing their heavy inspections at HPN, which at one time had the largest concentration of corporate owned JetStar’s based on one field, working through my former maintenance company for insurance purposes.

One company I helped out with maintenance had a 7 day European trip scheduled, normally they took their co-pilot/mechanic with them on overseas flights to have a 3 man crew because of the length of the trip. For personal reasons he could not make this trip, so knowing that I was also co-pilot qualified on the JetStar he asked if I wanted to take the trip in his place, all expenses paid plus a salary. After thinking about it for a nano second I agreed and off I went to Rome, Paris and Geneva.

On this JetStar the Cheap Pilot, excuse me Chief Pilot came up with a much simpler and cheaper modification to silence the landing gear warning horn, he took a small piece of plastic, drilled a hole in it and by using one of the holding screws for the landing gear control handle unit, mounted it so it permanently pushed in the button which maybe he didn’t know but it also totally disabled the landing gear warning system. He was so proud of his modification he made it a point of showing it to me during the flight.

Fast forward a few years later, I am now employed on my second JetStar job and during a 4 day trip to Dallas we decided to take the airplane to KC Aviation during the layover, then a top JetStar shop to get some work done on the interior and chase down some hydraulic leaks.

I see in the hangar a JetStar I didn’t recognize by paint or N number up on jacks with the auxiliary tanks and belly skins off and showing a lot of damage to the belly. I asked the lead mechanic on our airplane what happened to this JetStar. He said it landed gear up because someone had put a piece of plastic over the landing gear warning horn silencer button. I asked him what the serial number was and it was the same airplane I flew on to Europe a few years before and I told him the story behind that piece of plastic.

I had known that the company I flew with had sold the JetStar and apparently whoever bought it never removed the piece of plastic. The lead mechanic told me the FAA investigated the incident and the pilot’s were violated by the FAA because of this illegal modification. In my opinion they should have investigated it more and violated the stupid chief pilot who did this in the first place as well.

Another story from my days in corporate aviation.

JetStar


User currently offlinecschleic From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 1306 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2004 times:

Quoting jetstar (Reply 9):
The lead mechanic told me the FAA investigated the incident and the pilot’s were violated by the FAA because of this illegal modification. In my opinion they should have investigated it more and violated the stupid chief pilot who did this in the first place as well.

Wow, quite a story. While I agree with your conclusion, as the regs state, the PIC is responsible for all aspects of the flight, so..... I guess the FAA says the pilot is supposed to know every dumb thing that was done with the plane by previous owners.

Regarding gear-up landings, a pilot friend of mine likes to say "there are those who have, and those who will...."


User currently offlinelarshjort From Niue, joined Dec 2007, 1527 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1936 times:

The part-147 school I attended received a Cessna 177RG which had landed gear up. It was the second time it had happened to that aircraft, and it was the same pilot both times.

/Lars



139, 306, 319, 320, 321, 332, 34A, AN2, AT4, AT5, AT7, 733, 735, 73G, 738, 739, 146, AR1, BH2, CN1, CR2, DH1, DH3, DH4,
User currently offlinejetstar From United States of America, joined May 2003, 1665 posts, RR: 10
Reply 12, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1863 times:
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Quoting cschleic (Reply 10):
Wow, quite a story. While I agree with your conclusion, as the regs state, the PIC is responsible for all aspects of the flight, so..... I guess the FAA says the pilot is supposed to know every dumb thing that was done with the plane by previous owners.

I am sure the Captain of that JetStar had to be experienced, just to meet the insurance requirements and had to know that piece of plastic was not a Lockheed approved modification. Probably thought that was a great idea, keeping the landing gear warning horn permanently silenced, at least until he heard the sounds of metal contacting the runway. I can just imagine the look on his face trying to explain to the FAA inspectors that “gee, we got the airplane this way” and the FAA’s inspectors response, your pilots license please.

Back in my maintenance days working at a repair station, we had a good customer who owned a C-310 and he decided to update and bought a used C-320. After purchasing the airplane he flew it back to HPN and parked on the ramp just outside our hangar to get fuel and he came into our office and invited us out to look at his new used airplane. Some of us went out and another mechanic looked under the airplane and called the owner over and told him this airplane’s belly had been re-skinned and asked him if he did a pre-purchase inspection on this airplane. He said he had the engines checked for compression and looked at the logbooks and there was no damage history, so when the engines checked out okay he bought the airplane.

Moral of the story, never believe the logbooks, more than once we have done annuals on airplanes where there was signs of repairs, yet there was no entry or FAA Form 337’s in the logbooks. To those who do not know what a Form 337 is, it is called a Major Repair and Alteration form and is required to be filled out and submitted to the FAA whenever a major repair or alteration is done to an airplane. On the back of the form is where you have to describe the methods used to do the repair and list the approved references that you followed to do the repair. If FAA approval is needed they sign it and a copy becomes part of the logbooks..

Going back to my first post on this thread about a Comanche where one of my first jobs was to do a temporary repair to the airplane could get a ferry permit to fly out, it was over 40 years ago but I now remember that this airplane had been previously repaired because of a gear up landing and that was the reason the airplane had to go out to a shop that had the capabilities of doing extensive sheet metal repairs because of all the damage to the belly stringers that were just repaired using doublers the first time.

JetStar


User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3848 posts, RR: 11
Reply 13, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 1776 times:

Good to see this guy is perpetrating the Mooney pilots stereotype...

  



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
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